Here you will find many comparisons of milling machine brands and types, in conversations between folks who have experience and/or strong opinions. Purchase of a milling machine normally involves a fair investment of money and time to get the one that is right for you. Research carefully and be sure it will do what you want and really need. Sometimes a conversation starts out as comparing lathes and broadens to the same maker's milling machine. In the case of makers like Sherline or Taig, that each have both types of machine, there are a lot of accessories that work on either their lathe or their mill. For such companies, it may be worth a quick glance at the "Lathe Comparisons" text file to get a full picture of opinions and experiences about their products. If you got to this file directly from my HOME PAGE, return there by using your browser's back button. BUT if you came to this file as the result of a web search engine, see more than 70 additional files on my home page Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ SAFETY WARNING BEWARE: DO NOT ASSUME that any subject matter or procedure or process is safe or correct or appropriate just because it was mentioned in a news/user group or was included in these files or on this site or on any other web site or was published in a magazine or book or video. Working with metals and machinery and chemicals and electrical equipment is inherently dangerous. Wear safety devices and clothing as appropriate. Remove watches, rings, and jewellery -- and secure or remove loose clothing -- before operating any machine. Read, understand and follow the latest operating procedures and safety instructions provided by the manufacturer of your machine or tool or product. If you do not have those most recent official instructions, acquire a copy through the manufacturer before operating or using their product. Where the company no longer exists, use the appropriate news or user group to locate an official copy. Be careful -- original instructions may not meet current safety standards. Updated safety information and operating instructions may also be available through a local club, a local professional in the trade, a local business, or an appropriate government agency. In every case, use your common sense before beginning or taking the next step; and do not proceed if you have any questions or doubts about any procedure, or the safety of any procedure. Follow all laws and codes, and employ certified or licenced professionals as required by those laws or codes. Hazardous tasks beyond your competence or expertise should also be contracted to professionals. Let's be really careful out there. (c) Copyright 2003 - 2010 Machining and Metalworking at Home The form of the collected work in this text file (including editing, additions, and notes) is copyrighted and this file is not to be reproduced by any means, including electronic, without written permission except for strictly personal use. ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 13:43:44 -0000 From: "Fred Mitchell" Subject: Re:Milling Machine I have a Smithy BX-288 mill-drill, tilting gear-head type. For about half the cost of the cheapest knee mill, it does a very good job on work appropriate to 6" lathes. Also, it came with a very complete set of accessories (vise, collets, etc.) But there is one problem, at least with my machine. The friction in the head-tilting axis is very high, plus the fact that once it is tilted the weight of the motor throws the head out of balance and there is no real way to get a grip on the head, so it was impossible to make any accurate angle adjustment. I solved this by fabricating a bracket with a 1 1/4" hex head attached, which I bolted to the side of the head casting. I use a 3/4" drive breaker bar, which I already had, to do the tilting, and final adjustment by tapping the bar with a hammer. With this I can true the head within .002" across 8 inches as measured by d.i. Incidentally, I measured breakout torque on the tilt motion with a torque wrench, and it was 140 ft-lb at the vertical position! This after removing the head and thoroughly lubing all mating surfaces. It's just the huge overhanging weight of the head and motor that causes this, I believe. Other than this, the machine is excellent for the price. It has accurate dials on all three axes, speed changing is a snap (six speeds from 95-2000 rpm) and a nice size table (8 x 28 in). This sucker is heavy! It sat in the back of my truck for a week until I got a stand built for it and I rolled it out on pipe sections right onto the stand. For a 6" Atlas owner this was a new ballgame. Checking the Enco catalog, I see that the "Enco" brand now on sale is made in China, while the "Rong Fu" brand is from Taiwan. My BX-288 was made by the Zibo Automobile Gear Factory, China, so may well be identical to the "Enco" machine. As a rule I much prefer to buy Taiwan rather than Mainland Communist product. I'm sure the main difference between the two machines is the labor cost. When we had an Enco store here in this area I always went there and eyeballed the product before buying. In general Enco stuff has been satisfactory for me, but a mill-drill is a big investment and it would be nice to see before buying. I got the Smithy locally at a "tent sale" they ran a few years ago and might not have wanted to order it sight unseen. ------- Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 21:58:23 -0800 From: "Marcus & Eva" Subject: Re: 5400 or 2000 Mill ? Hi Bruce: I would buy the 5410 mill over the 2010. The 5410 is a much more rigid machine even though it is a bit less versatile than the 2010. I have a full size Bridgeport mill with the same adjustments as the 2010. In 10+ years of use I can recall tilting the head front-to-back maybe 2 times. Even though I can tilt the head on my machine in 2 planes, I almost never do it. I typically tilt the job, either with an angle plate, or by squeezing it on an angle in the vise. First of all, it is a major pain in the rear to realign the head after you're done. Second, you lose your X-Y positioning everytime you crank the table up or down (in the case of the Sherline, it is the head you crank up and down but the principle is the same.) Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 09:44:48 -0500 From: "Kevin P. Martin" Subject: RE: 5400 or 2000 Mill ? I bought a model 2000. The extra setup arrangements can be very useful. On the other hand, because it has less rigidity than the model 2000, and more importantly, there are more setup adjustments that can slip and ruin the job if you accidentally get too much cutting force, I also purchased and retrofitted the model 5400 column base. This involved drilling two holes in the mill base (the column bolts are side-by-side in the 2000, and fore-and-aft in the 5400), and milling away an unused part of the Y ways (they are contoured to wrap around the 2000's round column base neatly, I milled them off square). This was quite the setup; I had the Z axis mounted on the underside of the 5400 base, and clamped the base front-down onto the mill table. This was only possible because I had already turned the 5400 column base into a versatile base; it now looks like a piece of swiss cheese, since it has tapped holes in a grid pattern on several surfaces, giving me a choice of perhaps a dozen setups. I keep meaning to post pictures... Kevin ------- Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 11:47:43 -0500 From: "Marshall Pharoah" Subject: Re: 5400 or 2000 Mill ? >From: "Wm. Dubin" >Reply-To: sherlinex~xxyahoogroups.com >To: sherlinex~xxyahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [sherline] 5400 or 2000 Mill ? >Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 08:11:53 -0800 >I bought the 2000 mill. As my first mill (and milling expierence), >I had no way of knowing if the extra adjustment would ever be needed. >I've used my mill daily for over 2 years now, and have never come on a >situation where I could use this function. That being said, I am still >happy to have it, as one day I "know" I'll desperatly need it, and it >will be there. Lately, I've felt the need for a larger mill, as my work >requires it. I've checked several larger ones, and none offer anything >like the Sherline... just an increase in size (and weight). From reading >other lists, I hear of continual problems with these other mills... >enough to discourage me from putting nearly $2000.00 or more >into a mill prior to purchasing all the new tooling. >I have wondered if setting up the Sherline base unit that allows >conversion to horizontal milling would be an answer to this. >Has anyone on the list used this accessory? Has anyone done horizontal >milling, and if so, can you advise me as to whether or not this would >work for me? Yes, I have the horizontal milling base. I love it. I do have a few things I don't like about it. It does provide a lot of stability. It is a pain to try to hold the base and attach the column, requires three hands. (I'm working on a solution for this). Works very well for horizontal boring. Sherline reccomends that you chop the bottom of the column off. I felt I wanted the extra spzce so I didn't, and so far its been fine. It doesn't really buy you any more travel, it just lets you use it as a horizontal mill. I have an Atlas horizontal mill and am pretty familiar with the capabilities of horizontal mills. >I need extra length and width... so far, the height on the 2000 mill has >been OK. I'd hate to lose height, but if I gained longer and wider "runs" >it might be worth it. What you really want is more XY travel, it sounds to me. You won't really gain that. I think you are looking at a bigger machine. Check out the XY tables sold for drill presses, if you find a decent quality one of the right size, mount it to a metal base and mount the column from your mill to the base also. Marshall ------- Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 21:22:11 -0000 From: toddfx~xxaxom.com Subject: Home built mill? For 3 weeks to a month now I have been doing research on small milling machines. Once I settled on Taig over Sherline, I went back and read all the messages in the taigtools archive. What a great way to mine the collective wisdom of you all! I've been doing some emailing with Nick, and looking through the Enco catalog as well. I have a bunch of 1/2" aluminum tool plate available to me through work. What would be the pitfalls of making your own mill from parts? I'm thinking of taking a piece of tool plate for a base, and bolting on a Palmgren Compound Milling Table (Enco page 122). Then I'd bolt a big cast iron angle plate to the base plate. To the angle plate I'd bolt on another piece of tool plate going vertical. To that attach another smaller table like the Enco Compound Slide Milling & Drilling Table with the long axis running vertical. Maybe remove the cross axis from this table. To the vertical axis attach the Taig milling head. I arrived at this theoretical configuration by starting with the Taig milling machine, which I really like. But, the table isn't as easy to retrofit to CNC (my ultimate goal) or as well built as the Palmgren table. So, I'd replace the Taig table, which meant building up a frame from the angle plate and and tool plate pieces. Then I got a quote on the Taig Y-axis assembly for $150 without the headstock, dovetail mounting plate and motor mount. Well, a small steel table is $50 less than that, and I only need the long axis. That left getting the head assembly from Taig. With the big table at $220, the angle plate at about $100, the small table at $100, the tool plate free and the rest of the Taig stuff at about $150, this gives a total of about $570. I think I'd end up with a tougher machine than the Taig 2019 for about the same cost. Granted, it would take some cobbling together, but that's half the fun, right? Or am I completely off base and missing something critically important? Todd F. ------- Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 21:49:27 -0000 From: wjw2000x~xxhotmail.com Subject: Re: Home built mill? In taigtools: > I have a bunch of 1/2" aluminum tool plate available to me through > work. What would be the pitfalls of making your own mill from parts? > Todd F. Ever hear of the Gingery books on making your own metalworking machines from...scratch? The only pitfall I can warn of is that it will take time. If you have access to the material (I wish I had "a bunch of 1/2" aluminum tool plate"!), I think it's a great idea. If you don't have the Gingery books, perhaps you should get them (Lindsey Publications) before you start. He also tells you how to melt some of that aluminum down and make castings. ------- Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 18:41:00 EDT From: tadici283x~xxcs.com Subject: Re: Re: Home built mill? In a message dated 6/8/2001 2:49:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time, wjw2000x~xxhotmail.com writes: > The only pitfall I can warn of is that it will take time. If you have > access to the material (I wish I had "a bunch of 1/2" aluminum tool > plate"!), I think it's a great idea. If you don't have the Gingery > books, perhaps you should get them (Lindsey Publications) before you > start. He also tells you how to melt some of that aluminum down and > make castings. Remember, no matter what, it takes tools to make tools. I do like making your own tools, and have seen on the web some people who have made their own lathe and they take you one step at a time very interesting using the methods you mentioned, I think that I have read some on Nick's web site, if I remember correctly, (Jose R.) one thing for sure you can control quality (or at least hope that you can). Chris of Bradenton FL ------- Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 23:58:51 -0000 From: dmockx~xxclarion.edu Subject: Re: Home built mill? In taigtools: > Ever hear of the Gingery books on making your own metalworking > machines from...scratch? Also take a look at the Gingery Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gingery_machines Don ------- Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 15:24:39 -0000 From: "Robin S." Subject: Re: Home built mill? In taigtools, toddf wrote: > the rest of the Taig stuff at about $150, this gives a total of about > $570. I think I'd end up with a tougher machine than the Taig 2019 > for about the same cost. Granted, it would take some cobbling > together, but that's half the fun, right? Personally, I'd just go and buy the Taig mill. Machine tools are funny things. When you look at a larger mill, it looks simple until you understand the engineering that has gone into producing it. I'm reasonably sure you could build a very beafy mill, with its structure made from scratch. However, you'd need a mill to do this in the first place. You said you want to build a CNC eventually. CNC machining is VERY different from manual machining. I could never crank the handwheels hard enough to run a manual mill as hard as a CNC mill. Essentially, you want to make a CNC as big and bulky as you can afford. This means (for an amateur) steel weldiments, linear races or box ways (ideally box ways for stability), larger steppers or (better yet) servos, ballscrews and a very beafy spindle motor. The Taig is lacking in pretty much all but the reasonably bulky structure. This is not to say the Taig is incapable of running well as a CNC, but once you've played with a VMC, the Taig looks pretty wimpy. Concerning the structure of the Taig, it's big for its size. Good use of over-sized parts and the use of steel results in a stable machine, ideal for heavy cuts (compaired to the Sherline, for example). The stability of the superstructure of a CNC is very important. You can put very powerful axis and spindle drives on your mill, but if the structure is weak, your cuts will be terrible because of all the vibration. This is where the obsesive use of steel weldiments (or if you have the ability, cast iron) is ideal. Forget about aluminum - a terrible material to make a strong machine tool out of. Although the Taig usues dovetails with adjustable gibs, you'd really want box ways for max stability. To make these, you'd probably have to mill some steel bars, have them stressed relieved and then ground (and you could lap them for really good motion). If you've got deeper pockets (or *sources*) then you could use linear races. These are quite stable (used on HAAS and some Fadal VMC's) and allow for very quick movement. To drive the axes, you'd want either larger steppers or servos. Servos are very expensive compaired to steppers but they offer a number of advantages. Servos can yeild very quick rapid movements (ie up to about 2500IPM on some large CNC's, much quicker on certain machines, but they're unusual). Servos are also close-looped which means that your controller will always know where your axis is. The majority of stepper systems are open-looped which means that if you incure a very heavy load on the stepper (heavy cut, fast rapid movement, etc) you may lose steps and then your system is mucked up. For CNC, you almost have to have ballscrews. Regualr V point screws are almost out of the question, and acme screws aren't much better. The reason for ballscrews is the VERY repeatable backlash (although, the lash will be very small anyway) and the high power transmition of the ball screw compaired to the other mentioned screws. Ballscrews are very expensive compaired to conventional screws though. Again, you're going to have to have deeper pockets or some source of used/surplus parts. Lastly, and probably more important than everything above is the spindle motor. Using a 3/8" 4 flute HSS endmill, I can easily stall the Taig's spindle in aluminum (I've got the 1/5HP motor IIRC). For CNC, this would almost certainly need to be better. Most smaller VMC's are rated for a 15-30HP motor, and it's not uncommon to stall them on really really heavy cuts. Now, all that said, if you just want a small machine that'll do CNC, I'd just buy the Tiag. I like my Taig, and my only complaint is that the spindle motor is too small compared with the bulk of the machine. It's very capable for its size, and it all came in one package, ready to go. If you're willing to build a good CNC machine over the next couple months or years, buy the manual Taig and perhaps an arc welder ;-) Hope this helps, Robin ------- NOTE TO FILE: There are also some comments about the choice of a shaper versus a milling machine in the file "Shaper Comparisons" on my site. Keep an open mind. Both have advantages. In an ideal world you can have both, sometimes at bargain prices. Bigger shapers (because they are heavy and hard to move) sell for less than tabletop ones; typically big shapers will be free, or close to it, or sold for their metal scrap value even if they are in fine working shape. ------ From: "robert B" Date: Thu Aug 2, 2001 7:36 pm Subject: drill mill, or shaper ? If a fellow had a choice between a milldrill, or a shaper, which would be the best bet ? ------- From: doogdoogx~xxh... Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 1:24 am Subject: Re: drill mill, or shaper ? Aloha, I got my mill/drill first and then I got my 7" Atlas shaper. The shaper comes in handy and the tool bits are way cheaper than the end mills. Mahalo, Howard ------- From: PIHPGSx~xxa... Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 11:40 am Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] drill mill, or shaper ? Hi: We have a 9 x 30 inch grizzly mill drill w/2axis dro also a 8x8 metal shaper. Both do similar things, but mill/drill is more versatile and faster. Each is unique for certain jobs. w/ a metal shaper you need to have plenty of spare time and patience. hope this helps chuck ------- From: Ronald Thibault Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 4:44 pm Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] drill mill, or shaper ? 8/2/01 you wrote: >If a fellow had a choice between a milldrill, or a shaper, which >would be the best bet ? The Mill/Drill is more versatile. It can cut pockets, drill and bore holes, in addition to what could be done on either. Ron Thibault North Augusta, SC USA Builder Miinie #2 Captain R/C Combat Ship USS Arizona http://pages.prodigy.net/thibaultr/ ------- From: "pep_3" Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 6:22 pm Subject: taig vs sherline mills what are the advantages of one over the other. ------- From: Tony Jeffree Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 7:44 pm Subject: Re: [taigtools] taig vs sherline mills 1. The Taig mill is better. 2. The taig mill is better. 3. ... Seriously though... Both are useful and capable machines. The Taig philosophy seems to be to do good engineering first, then worry about the cosmetics later (sometimes, much much later). The Sherline philosophy seems to be to pay more attention to the cosmetics. Hence, $ for $, you get a much prettier machine from Sherline, but a significantly more robust machine from Taig. The one edge the Sherline mill has over the Taig mill is the motor/speed controller, which is great. However, you can easily retrofit the Taig mill with a Sherline motor (or a treadmill motor) if variable speed is important to you. Personally, I prefer robust. Regards, Tony ------- From: "Leon Heller" Date: Sat Aug 4, 2001 2:26 am Subject: Re: [taigtools] taig vs sherline mills Another advantage Sherline has is metric options on all their tools. Leon Leon Heller, G1HSM Tel: +44 1327 359058 Email:leon_hellerx~xxh... My web page: http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller ------- From: flneighborsx~xxy... Date: Sat Aug 4, 2001 2:56 am Subject: Re: taig vs sherline mills The ability of the Sherline to easily use 3/8" end mills is a plus for me. The Sherline mill uses a threaded mill holder for this. The Sherline also has a standard M1 taper in the spindle...making it possible to use other people's tooling. The Sherline's lengthy list of accessories is another plus. I've never used a Taig, but I understand that, the biggest collet available is only 3/16". Spindle taper is 13 degrees? What fits that? Forrest ------- From: jtoolman2000x~xxh... Date: Tue Aug 28, 2001 9:27 pm Subject: Re: taig vs sherline mills I have made a my own variable speed Mill utilizing a lot of Taig components such as the Taig Headstock and riser blocks as well as many shop made components. The fact that Sherline uses that very expensive end mill holder ( $30 or so )led me to make the same thing except much better from a less than $3 Taig blank arbor. I have made them for 3/8 and 1/2" shanks as well as for many different tools like slitting blades, grinders and other bits of tooling. So one can simply make one such as mine and duplicate the Sherline's ability to use larger end mills. The arbors are pre threaded to fit the Taig spindle of 3/4-16. The Taig also has a short unthreaded portion at the rear of the spindle which fits perfectly snug in the matching unthreaded portion of any Taig spindle accessory. Since threads alone do not insure axial and lateral alignment, you need to have this little registering portion of the thread to accurately center a chuck or faceplate. Sherline does NOT have this feature. By the way the angle of the spindle bore is not 13 but rather,15 or 30 included which is an accepted taper on the inductry as well as many old so-called jeweler's lathes. Now these also used the so called WW taper as well. I have pics of all my projects on my web site at: http://www.homestead.com/tool20895/jose7x10taig.html Regards Jose ------- From: "Carol & Jerry Jankura" Date: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:56 am Subject: RE: [taigtools] Re: taig vs sherline mills How are your end mill holders "much better" (other than cost, obviously) than the Sherlines? Did you do something different than bore a hole for the shank and an orthogonal hole for the set-screw? I've made the 1/2 inch arbor for my sherline from a Taig blank, and figure that it's the equivalent of the Sherline. ------- From: Brian Fisher Date: Sat Aug 4, 2001 3:07 am Subject: Re: [taigtools] taig vs sherline mills Before I bought my Taig cnc mill, I looked at both the Taig and the Sherline. Having a strong background with a popular cad/cam company I had the fortune to see a lot of different full sized VMC's in action. I also used to run several different VMC's prior to my job with the cad/cam company. I took what I had seen, used, and learned as my bias for my purchase. When I looked at the Sherline, despite it's options over the taig, I thought, what a cute lil toy! :) When I had seen the Taig I thought, wow what a cool lil machine. Read the specs on both machines, ask as many questions from current owners as you can, obtain their machining background, and use your own machining experience as grounds to make a sensible decision. You will be happy with your purchase. I know I was. Brian ------- From: "Carol & Jerry Jankura" Date: Sat Aug 4, 2001 10:11 am Subject: RE: [taigtools] taig vs sherline mills Folks: Some of these comments remind me of the great "Lionel vs. American Flyer" debates that raged on when I was a kid. And, probably with the same vigor, emotion snd results. Fact of the matter is that all of these machines have their own set of limitations. Best advice is to learn those limitations (both the Sherline and Taig groups are good sources for that), decide which manufacturer's limitations are least intrusive to building the projects you have in mind and purchase that manufacturer's tool. As with the toy trains of our youth, you won't go wrong purchasing either unit. Just don't overanalyze your decision to death. Instead, make a choice. It won't be "wrong," whichever tool you choose. Your results will be influenced more by your skills than by which tool you purchase anyway. And, once you have a machine, you can start learning and building your skills. My bias - I chose a Sherline lathe & mill, which is why I primarily lurk on this list. I'm just learning to use them. I'm six months along the way and am having some fun remaking parts. :) I subscribe to this list for the same reasons that I subscribe to the Sherline list - the machines aren't all that different so many of the techniques used on one of them apply to the other. (Of course, dimensions, hole sizes, etc. may be different, but the same ideas apply.) One nice thing about both Sherline and Taig - their spindles are both threaded for 3/4-16 which means that I can use some of Taig's parts on my Sherline and Taig owners may be able to adapt some of Sherlines parts to their machines as well. Taig's screw-on arbor blanks are much cheaper than Sherline's blank arbors (Taig's screw onto the spindle while Sherline's have the Morse Taper, so they're not the same part) and work well for some applications. Jerry ------- From: "Leon Heller" Date: Sat Aug 4, 2001 3:24 am Subject: Re: [taigtools] Re: taig vs sherline mills >tools with something called an Int30 taper or something like that. >It's the same thing, presumably. They aren't very common, though. I've just checked in one of my catalogues. One supplier (Graham Engineering near Birmingham, UK) stocks 30 INT taper mill arbors, and adaptors from 30 INT to 2MT and 3MT. Perhaps I could put one on my Taig? Leon Leon Heller, G1HSM Tel: +44 1327 359058 My web page: http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller ------- From: Stan Stocker Date: Sat Aug 4, 2001 4:33 pm Subject: Re: [taigtools] taig vs sherline mills Jerry: Well said. Both companies make good products, each with strengths and weaknesses. I've often heard comments about the plastic gibs on Sherline, but haven't noticed folks who own Sherline complaining about these causing any problems. Could you post your experiences regarding this? I'm just plain curious, being a tool junkie. Thanks, Stan ------- From: joel_mowersx~xxp... Date: Sat Aug 4, 2001 3:19 pm Subject: Re: taig vs sherline mills My 2 cents. Have had the Taig CNC-ready version for about a month. Love it. I've been using 1/4" & 3/8" 4 flute end mills in aluminum and steel, taking .020" cuts with no problems. Will be making a 1/2" tool holder shortly. Advantages: All the Taig (and a lot of Sherline) stuff works on the mill (it has the same head stock as the Taig lathe). The CNC-ready version comes with what seems like a very high torque motor. Disadvantages: No dividing head, no rotary table available from Taig. But others are available. Also missing, an X-axis drive. Spinning the handle for a long fly cut is tedious. Still and all, it beats the drill-press/file method of milling by a long shot. Joel ------- From: "Carol & Jerry Jankura" Date: Sat Aug 4, 2001 9:27 pm Subject: RE: [taigtools] taig vs sherline mills Stan: I've only had my Sherlines since February, but have had no problems with the gibs. One consideration is that all plastics are not created equal. Some wear quite fast, others are almost as hard as metal. Since Sherline originally used brass for their gibs, I'm sure that they tested them well before changing their production. It's just like ShopSmith - everyone talks about how inconvenient it is to change from one tool to another. Everyone, that is, except those of us who own one. Jerry One of my other tools is a ShopSmith ------- From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Date: Sun Aug 5, 2001 1:14 pm Subject: Re: [taigtools] Re: taig vs sherline mills Most of us just make 3/8" endmill holders from the 1132 blank arbor. The 15 deg. taper is a proprietary Taig taper, and I wish they would make a version that took ER collets... The collets go up to 5/16", but the 1/4" one is the biggest practical one. ------- From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 1:09 pm Subject: Re: [taigtools] Re: taig vs sherline mills Generally my advice is to buy the same mill as lathe: Sherline mill & lathe (MT1, 3/4"-16), taig mill & lathe (15 deg & 3/4"-16) 7x10 lathe and import minimill (MT3). Just so you can keep all tooling for both machines. That said, for making the arbors for a Taig on the 7x10, you want to make a copy of the Taig spindle that you can chuck on the 7x10 and use that to mount Taig blank arbors for machining. See our web pages http://www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 13:14:32 -0500 From: jmark.vanscoterx~xxamd.com Subject: RE: Atlas Through Bore (Was Re: Atlas Price) I owned a Rong Fu Mill drill, considered the best of the import mill- drills (M-D). I sold it to a buddy of mine when I needed some bucks for my house. I planned to later replace it with a geared Mill-Drill from Enco (they seemed to have the best value), but didn't. Two weeks ago, I wandered into the local H-F store. They had just got a shipment of the latest machine tools and had both the belt-drive and the gear-drive M-D's next to each other. Could not believe how much nicer the geared head was than the other model. The table was larger than any belt M-D, the castings looked solid, the footprint was small because the motor was not hanging off the back of it. Checked the speeds, and the range of the 6 speeds was good, with 95 RPM (could be 90, not positive) as the slowest. And, it was not the hideous bright red like the catalog showed (more of a rich burgundy). As for Cons, well all the typical limitations of the M-D's still hold for this model. There is no knee, it has a round column. It is still a Chinese machine tool and it should be treated as such. I would expect to drain the oil in the gear chamber, refill it, run in every gear for about 15-30 minutes, then drain oil, clean and refill. I also expect to replace some of the handles, mount the powerfeed that I have, and install it on the M-D base I have. You also need to buy a decent vice, set of R8 collets, hold-downs, etc. I saw a complete setup at Enco for about $200. Have not brought it home yet, but it is not because I don't want to, it is the perfect complement to my Craftsman Commercial 12x54 cabinet lathe. (I am getting ready to have a new house built, so I am watching my bucks.) If there is any specific question I can answer, I will try. Mark V.S. in Austin, TX ------- Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 16:54:48 -0700 From: "David Goodfellow" Subject: Re: Using 3/8" shank cutters with the Taig mill Hi Jerry: I've had the Taig for only about a week, so any comments I make today may have to be rewritten a month from now. But here goes: I've had the Sherline for about a year and a half. About a year ago I bought a Grizzly Mini-mill to do some stuff too big for the Sherline. But I was still happy enough with the Sherline to put a DRO on it. I found it accurate as long as I took light cuts, but not stiff enough for more aggressive milling. When I decided to go CNC I considered retrofitting the Sherline, but decided to go the Taig route instead, because it appeared to be a stiffer machine. And that has turned out to be so. In fact, with the 12" travel on the 15" bed, I may in the future let my beloved Grizzly go. Space is at a premium in my bedroom shop. I milled my first part today with the Taig. It was a simple one -- a Scotch Yoke type piston rod for a steam engine, connecting two opposing pistons -- made from 1/16" brass flat. I had to make two, because the engine has four cylinders. The two parts are identical, which tells me something about the reliability (repeatability) of the Taig mill. Also I've done some engraving on the Taig, to a depth of .005". The appearance of the text over a 2-1/2" span is identical, telling me that the depth of cut remained constant. I found it easier to get precision work from the Sherline than from the Grizzly -- mainly because the Grizzly's Z-axis fine tuning sucks. But the Taig is easier than the Sherline. This is not due to an inherent superiority, but to its CNC operation. It could very well be that if my Sherline had CNC the two would be equal in this regard. I think the Sherline's variable-speed motor is an advantage over the Taig, but I have not had to deal with a lot of different spindle speeds yet, so I don't know how MUCH of an advantage. The Taig belt runs loose enough so that moving it to another pulley set is easy to do. If this becomes a problem I can always put a variable-speed motor on the Taig. To sum up, the Taig can handle a larger workpiece than the Sherline can, and more aggressive cuts. It's bigger and stiffer. I think its Z-axis column is far superior. The Taig weighs nearly 80 pounds (including steppers, etc.) and the Sherline weighs 35 pounds. I think I'm going to be glad I went for the Taig. Regards, Dave Goodfellow Northridge, CA ------- Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 17:00:45 -0500 From: "Carol & Jerry Jankura" Subject: RE: Newbie Help Tim: Here are some of the reasons that I chose Sherline: 1. If you want, you can convert the lathe into a mill by buying the appropriate columns. Taig does not offer that ability. 2. Sherline offers a larger selection of accessories, many of which can work with their milling machine as well. 3. Sherline uses a leadscrew for the carriage whereas Taig uses a rack. This means that you can purchase a set of back gears from Sherline to allow threading while you cannot with Taig. 4. If you purchase the Sherline 4400 lathe, the bed is longer than the Taig. This may be advantageous in some applications. For instance, you still have a reasonable working space when you use a half-inch chuck and half-inch reamer. The short bed tool would have been difficult in this situation. 5. The sherline headstock has a continuously variable motor and now can be purchased with a pulley set that allows a 10000 rpm spindle. Taig uses mostly an induction motor and set of stepped pulleys. Now - why am I on this list? Well, mostly I lurk because many of the topics that are discussed here are also applicable to the Sherline. And, I'll bet that lots of Taig owners are also on the Sherline list for the same reason. I doubt that the differences between Taig and Sherline are large enough to make learning to use one significantly easier than learning to use the other. I hope that this provides some information to help you in your decision process. In the final result, each tool has its own set of good points and bad points. Sherline was best for me, but it may or may not be right for you, depending on how you choose to use the machine and what features are most important to you. Whichever you choose, you'll not make a bad choice. Jerry Jankura Strongsville, Ohio ------- Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 08:31:06 -0000 From: jimknightonx~xxworldnet.att.net Subject: Re: Entry-level Milling machine Mr. Wells, I am probably persona non grata in answering this question. I am very happy with my Sherline 4400C Lathe with all manner of goodies and with more to come. However, I don't use a Sherline mill. Rather, I have a small Jet Mill Drill. Small is relative, however. This machine uses r-8 collets, and is configured with an asian 6" Anglock vise with a rotary base. Configured as is, it weighs approx 550+ lbs, and it is capable of some serious work. Compared to the lathe, I use the drill/mill easily 75% of the time or more. Cost was an issue, and at the time it set me back approx $1,250 new, plus abt $120 shipping. This was a couple of years ago and prices may have changed. At the time I thought the Sherline to be "too small" for the projects I wanted to tackle. I routinely use end mills considerably larger than the manufacturer recommends, and I probably couldn't do that easily with the Sherline. Other than size,however, I don't think there is anything I can do that can't be done just as easily and precisely on a Sherline. In fact, the Sherline might even be easier to use. I'll defer to people with experience with both. I'm personally not interested in CNC, and that is just as well. I'm not sure I could get there with my present machine. I'm very pleased with my current mixed bag setup. I admit to envying the Horizontal Mill setup, however, and plan to either construct my own machine to recent HSM plans or will buy the Sherline and live with its smaller capacity. I can get appropriate materials for a project like this, but I haven't mastered the art of the scrounge. Current estimates make it look like the Horizontal Mill might actually be cost effective, not factoring in differences in material handling capabilities. Jim Knighton ------- Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 19:18:15 -0000 From: paul_probusx~xxyahoo.com Subject: Re: Entry-level Milling machine (kind of long) Depends on what size work you do. Go to www.grizzlyimports.com and look at their line of milling machines. They have a full line of milling machines from just larger than Sherline sized mills to full size production mills. If you decide the smallest mill is the right one for you, then seriously consider the Sherline. The Grizzly mini mill (and its siblings under different names) is only slightly larger than the Sherline. People who "moved up" from the Sherline to the Grizzly type mini mill complain that the move up was not as dramatic as they had hoped. Also, look beyond price. The Sherline might be more expensive but it is accurate out of the crate. The Grizzly and its siblings have had complaints about required adjustments needed to get the accuracy the Sherline has out of the factory and they need to be torn down, completely cleaned (casting grit and dirt) and lubed. To be fair to those imported mills, some Grizzly's and siblings have been found to be accurate out of the crate, and there are many people who have bought them and are satisfied with their purchases. If you need a mid-size mill (ie. mill/drill), there are no other choices that I am aware of than an imported mill. They are all similar to what are on the Grizzly site, regardless of who you purchase one from. If you need a full-size mill, your choices do open up, a tad. For what you would pay for a brand new import, you can get a beat up Bridgeport or American made clone. Any American made machine tool that still has production life in it will be out of the price range for a HSM and probably scarfed up by a production machine shop. I believe the large mills (with the exception of the horizontal mill) are made in Taiwan. Taiwan's machine tool quality is much improved over what it was many years ago when Grizzly and others started importing their equipment from Taiwan. Therefore, one of the imported full sized mills is, IMHO, a better deal, for a HSM looking for a full sized mill. You may be able to get an American made horizontal mill that is in good shape, the size you need and for a good deal since you are not competing with production machine shops for these machines. Now that I think of it, I want to retract what I said earlier, for the mid-size mill category, you do have another choice to the imported mill/drills. A small American made horizontal mill is another choice. The 7" Atlas/Craftsman would be one to consider. I believe Logan and South Bend may have offered models of similar size as well. Paul ------- Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 16:43:16 -0800 From: Rick Kruger Subject: Re: What Mill to buy? [US $1000 OR LESS] I'm not familiar with the Grizzly G1005, but am with the G8689. Great little machine. I do more work on it than all three of my lathes combined (Atlas 10", SB 9" and Minilathe 7x12). Not as rigid as I'd like, and it does have its limits on size of work, both in table travel and under the spindle. Still, if the size fits your machining needs, its a workhorse. I have done and angle plate bracing to increase rigidity of the column. There is a Yahoo group devoted to the G8689, but its membership is small and traffic light: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GrizHFMinimill/ A much more active, and highly knowledgeable on the minimill and other larger bench top mills, such as the RF30, RF31 (which the G1005 may be, but I don't know it) is the "minilathe group": http://groups.yahoo.com/group/7x10minilathe/ On either/both groups, be sure to give some details of just how big of pieces, what type of milling you expect to do, so they don't have to ask for the info before being able to help you. If I were buying today, knowing what I know now, even tho I really like the MiniMill (G8689), I would be inclined to get an RF30/31 machine, if I had a budget of $1000 >>> for the machine ONLY. Tooling will run you another $500 - $1000 (but don't tell the W-unit that!). But, extending that "if I were buying today" theme. If I were buying today, I'd be inclined to hunt the auctions for a full sized mill in reasonable, which can be had for around $1000, depending on where you are, etc. My problem with that is that it would have to go in my uninsulated, detached, 1 car garage and that is NOT where other machines are. And I don't even live in a "cold" part of the country. Rick K. Portland, OR ------- Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 20:43:28 EST From: LADDERBARx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: What Mill to buy? I own the grizzly 1007. Have had it since 1986. did every thing I wanted it to, fly cut pistons, enlarge valve bowls, put studs in heads and I made a lot of tooling on it also. The only thing I want on it is a knee, which it doesn't come with. I'm looking to upgrade. R-8 is the way to go (i.m.o.). Tools are more available at swaps and such. Be prepared to spend a good bit on tooling, even more than the mill it shelf. Have fun making chips Mike ------- Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 19:58:43 -0600 From: "Randy" Subject: Re: What Mill to buy? Hank: I would start here: mill_drillx~xxyahoogroups.com I did and they helped me with the info I needed. Just before I bought my used (like new) Enco 1100. It has an R8 spindle which I think is the only way to go you don't have to fight the collets out; just loosen the drawbar and out they come. Randy Pedersen Salina, KS Atlas 618 South Bend 9"A South Bend 9"C Enco Mill Drill Model 1100 ------- Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 09:10:04 -0900 From: "Crisenbery Engineering" Subject: RE: what mill to buy My two cents worth, having owned or own a round column mill drill, a square column mill/drill, a Taig mill and a Bridgport clone. Assess the size of the work you are really going to do. Some of the small mill/drills don't have too much more travel than the bench tops, Sherline, Rex and Taig, especially with the optional long table on the Taig that gives 12" of x. These small machines are nowhere near as rigid as large machine but if you are working with models this is probably not a problem as the workpiece is probably going to be a limiting factor on how heavy a cut you can take etc. They are cheap really will do some decent work for a hobby and don't take up much space. If you are doing larger work spend the extra and get a real mill even it is used. The round column mill/drills are a real pain I have seen bandaids added to them like pining the rack so the head won't rotate and therefore sort of maintaining some z alignment. The larger square column mill drill Rong Fu RF45 costs as much as some knee mills so unless you don't have shop space it doesn't make too much sense. One trick to use on any mill or mill/drill with limited z travel to get around this problem when switching between drilling and milling is don't use a drill chuck. Use collets for your milling and drilling and use screw machine length drills, they are shorter than jobber length and in addition to saving space in the vertical or z direction they are more rigid so are less prone to wandering. Save the drill chuch and jobber drills for deep holes or when there is not a z space limitation. Rick C ------- Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 19:17:36 -0000 From: "stevenhkb" Subject: Re: What Mill to buy? You have gotten a lot of good advice. To recap: Know what you are using it for (and remember it will change!); think about tooling cost, its considerable; unless size and weight are major considerations steer clear of mill-drills; don't overlook used machines. Now heres my suggestion, if you have the room and ability to move it, look at some of the larger less well known American made older machines on the market. I have a Van Norman #12, one of the more common of the "universal" mills. A universal is made to operate in horizontal or verticle mode, and generally dosent have a drill quill, ie its not intended for drilling as a regular use. They have a very rigid knee that moves in Z axis, table X & Y movement, a "ram" that carries the cutting head in the Y direction so it can be retracted for use as a horizontal arbor holder with an overarm. They will carry a large cutter and make a lot of chips! Mine is very sturdy, better in that respect than a Bridgeport, they cost used from $400 to $800 depending on tooling, last forever in a home shop, and can do work a mill-drill would never try. A Van Norman #12 was on Ebay a week ago starting at $250, one guy I know bought one off ebay for $355, annother in Florida bought one at an estate sale for $200, I paid $750 for mine. There is a VN#3 in North Carolina (don't know price) which is a Bridgeport on steroids, 3300# of mill with power downfeed on the quill and horizontal option. All these machines are retiring from shops who have converted to CNC and need the space and manpower. They often can be had for a song, there is a VN#22L in New Jersey on Ebay starting at $100 right now. They can get heavy, the VN#12 is about 1800 lbs, the VN#22 is 2800#, the VN#6 is about 1200#. Don't put them in the attic! Tho I have seen pictures of several in basements. Now the downside: Moving is a pain, but you only have to do it once. Collets are not as cheap or available, used ones for the VN#6/12 size run $15 used, $70 new, but you only need a few to suit the end mill sizes. Most came from the factory with 3-phase motors, but the design allows for easy motor changout unlike a B'Port. Or VFD's can be bought which allow for more variable RPM and braking as a bonus. Hole drilling is a pain if you have to doo a lot, I drilled 400 holes, 1/8"dia recently and it can be done. Steve ------- Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 15:35:59 -0500 From: Ken Jenkins Subject: Re: Bigger machines A couple years ago I decided I wanted a mill. I looked at the Taig and it was too small for everything I wanted a mill to be able to do. I bought a Grizzly 1126 Gear Head mill. I love it. It uses R8 tooling, has 6 speeds which are changed without messing around with pulleys, operates in "drill press mode" with the Z axis disengaged from the fine adjust. Also it came with an x-table autofeed. I think I paid around $2300 for it. Since then I have bought a Taig CNC mill also. The two machines fill different needs entirely. I have been very happy with this machine and the service I have received from Grizzly thus far. ------- Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 20:25:44 -0000 From: "David Simmons" Subject: Re: 2000 Mill [sherline group] >>I would like to know if anyone has experience with the Sherline 2000 mill and the more conventional 5400 mill. Is the 2000 mill as rigid as the 5400 mill. Are there any disadvantages in using the 2000 mill. John Walters << Craig Libuse wrote: >John: Unless you know of specific uses for which you will need the additional versatility of the 2000 mill, I ususally recommend that a new machinist start with the 5400. The difference in price is $225, but the 5400 can later be upgraded to the capacity of the 2000 with the addition of the P/N 5650 column upgrade, which costs $250. That means there is only a $25 difference to upgrade later, and in the meantime, the extra $225 can be put toward accessories that will be of more immediate use to you, like a vise, hold-down set, cutters, etc. For example, the 5400A mill package lists for $875, which is the same price as just the 2000 mill with no accessories. For that $225 you get a mill vise, step block hold-down set, 3/8" end mill set (6 double ended cutters), end mill holder, 3-piece mill collet set, 3-pc. center drill set, fly cutter, hex T-wrench, Sherline Shop Guide book. This is of course in addition to the 1/4" drill chuck and headstock spacer block that comes with the 5400 anyway. That said, let me also say that used properly, the 2000 should be just as rigid as the 5400 within the space limits of the 5400. Since the design of the 2000 allows it to be positioned and extended to many more positions than the 5400, you must keep in mind that as you hang it further out to get to special situations, lighter cuts must be taken. Since these are situations that could not have been addressed with the 5400 anyway, this is a reasonable compromise to gain that extra capability. I think most will agree that this is the case on any machine, regardless of size or price. Craig Libuse Sherline Products < I'll second that advice. Even on the larger equipment that I have worked on the rule is: the more axis the more problems. I have not used the Sherline mills, but the same rule should apply. And the fact that you could upgrade later and spend the extra on tooling now is a good idea. Most people end up with more cash in their tooling than in the machine anyway:) Regards, Dave Simmons ------- Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 07:48:43 -0600 From: "Brad Butler" Subject: Re: Greenhorn questions [SHERLINE GROUP] >> I am looking into getting a Sherline mill, I know very little about them except that I want one (size constraints are an issue). My first question is, where is the best place to get one from, both from a price standpoint, and a service standpoint. Second, would I be better off looking into the higher-end model or into the medium-end model with a DRO added. Thanks, Matt Pierce << I ordered the Sherline equipment without any DRO's. I work every day with full size equipment that are all equipped with either CNC or at a minimum high grade DRO's. At first I thought that I would possibly miss not having them. This just hasn't been the case. I could see if you were using the Sherline as a production machine than it would be a factor but on a hobby basis the cost could not be justified for me. The other thing that bugs me is that the Sherline DRO reads off encoders attached to the lead screws and not off glass scales on the mill bed. What this means is that it is reading the position of the lead screw and not the absolute position of the bed. This is the way that almost all commercial DRO's operate. Not a big issue for most but if I am going to fork over the bucks for a DRO I want it as accurate as possible. And for the inevitable comment on cost, yes I realize that commercial DRO's are much more expensive but this is just one opinion. Brad Butler ------- Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 07:57:46 -0400 From: "Carol & Jerry Jankura" Subject: RE: Looking at getting a mill or lathe but want a combo.... >1. Is there a good combo mill/lathe under $750-$1000 Hi, Rich: You can configure Sherline products to be this, although you'll have to order the parts separately. Purchase their lathe (Long bed if you have the space, short bed otherwise) and buy a vertical milling column. You can order directly from Sherline, but they don't discount so as not to cut their retailers out of the picture. Instead, order from one of their dealers. Most discount and have Sherline drop ship the items to you. One nice thing about buying these parts is that you could then order the remaining parts and have a separate mill once your space opens up. Taig is another US manufacturer, but you'd have to purchase both a lathe and mill, as the Taig lathe can't be converted over. >2. If there is, how loud are they? I've never put a sound meter on them, but I don't find the noise objectionable. >3. How messy/smelly can they get? As messy and as smelly as you want. A lot depends on the materials you cut and the lubrication you need. The milling operation will throw a lot of chips, so you'll need to build some kind of enclosure around it. For the most part, it could be a cardboard box, so there's not a lot of expense involved. The lathe will throw strands as you take your cuts. You'll definitely need a shop vac (not necessarily large, but don't count on the Hoover that cleans the rest of the house. I mostly cut aluminum in the basement. I've got to be careful about tracking chips around, but havn't any noticeable smell. >4. How is the UNIMILL or UNITURN (I've already been told to stay away >from the UNIMAT 1) Don't know anything about them. If these are made by Emco, you might want to check whether or not they're currently in production. The unimat SL, DB, and UNI-3 are small machines, capable for hobby projects (not as capable as the Sherline stuff, though), but are no longer made. There's a UNI-4 that's supposedly a Chinese version of the UNI-3 currently made, but it's not really marketed in the States. Uni's have become collector's items, and they're price accordingly. >I know these sound like funny questions but my wife and I >are in a 3 room apt. and we kind of split the one room up. >Half my workbenches / half the bedroom. If youve lived in New York >you should understand. Dave Goodfellow seemed to have a setup similar to this. I don't know if he hangs out on this list anymore or not, but he'd be a good one to ask for advice. Jerry ------- Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 19:40:52 -0400 From: "Jeff Bissonnette" Subject: Taig vs. Sherline CNC milling machine information.... I was wondering if I might ask you guys for some help... There is a very strong possibility that I will come into enough money to realize a dream of mine, and that is to own a CNC milling machine. I presently have a small shop equipped with a manual Sherline lathe and mill and a Taig lathe converted to an X-Y precision drill press... I like my Sherline machines, but the larger size of the Taig machine has my attention. What would some of you guys out there that own the CNC or manual mills feel are the benefits of the Taig mill over the Sherline or vise versa? I intend to use the mill for profile milling brass and nickel silver locomotive frame parts, as well as fixtures for assembling turnouts for model railroading. I plan to use it for many other things as well, but those the first things that come to mind. The usage I plan for it is as a benchtop "production" machine, so durability is also an issue. The important thing here is that the machine can maintain a positional tolerance of about 0.001" or so within an 1" x 2" envelope. The gearboxes I plan to machine use very small pitch gears and require significant precision and repeatability would be nice too. So, I'd appreciate any ideas and suggestions you guys might have are greatly appreciated... At this point I'm open minded about either the Sherline or Taig. I'll weigh all the information I get and go from there. Thanks and Best Regards, Jeff ------- Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 17:35:10 -0700 From: David Goodfellow Subject: Re: Taig vs. Sherline CNC milling machine information.... Hi Jeff: I have the Taig CNC mill with the extended bed. In a nutshell, I love it. At one time I had a Sherline manual mill, and liked that too. (Ok, I'm easily pleased.) They are both precision machines, and will do the job for you provided you stay within their intended uses. I went for the Taig mill because it would allow working on larger pieces. It's heftier in size and weight, and (I believe) allows precision work on larger pieces. I have done repeated work on parts for small steam engines, and have found the parts are interchangeable. I think either machine would hold the 0.001 tolerance you require, but the Taig would allow you to go to larger sizes than the Sherline will. Nick Carter can give you far more knowledgeable advice than I can. He's a Taig dealer, but if he thinks you're better off with a Sherline he'll tell you so. Whichever one you get, I'm pretty sure you'll be happy with it. Regards, Dave Goodfellow Lancaster, CA ------- Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 18:05:25 -0600 From: "Doug Chartier" Subject: RE: Re: Mill/Lathe Combo I haven't kept up with this thread so if I repeat something - apologies up front! I once owned a ShopTask 3n1. I now have a Bridgeport, a 17x42 Cincinnati engine lathe and a Logan 820. Perhaps I can offer some first hand observations. First there is no comparison between quality of old US iron and imported. They aren't even close. Second big difference is that the larger US machines are built for production. The ShopTask is NOT. "Production" is a rather "undefined" term, but bottom line it boils down to is getting more similar parts out in a shorter period of time, and it's more than just horsepower. As an example my Bridgeport is an old J head with a 1 hp 3 phase motor. Before selling the ShopTask the mill motor quit, and I replaced it with a 1 hp single phase. Both machines have very similar spindle speeds. 1 hp equals 1 hp and 200 rpms equals 200 rpms - right? The machines should perform about the same. NOT right. The mill head on the ShopTask is no where near able to take the cuts that the Bridgeport just sails through. There is not enough iron in the backbone of the ShopTask. The lathe part of the ShopTask isn't all that bad, but again, heavy cuts are difficult. In all fairness, my comparison here is not fair. My Cincinnati is 5 hp and weighs about 4,000 lbs. The ShopTask was sold to a man who, like me, was just starting with machine work, but he had a particular reason for the purchase. Very soon after buying it he added the movable mill head and a 3 axis DRO. The mill head now moves up and down and is stabilized at 4 anchor points instead of one. It makes a very big difference. It still isn't what I would consider a "production" machine, but is well past the hobby classifi- cation. For small parts and one-offs it really isn't that bad particularly when you consider the amount of room it takes up and the overall cost. Another word about production. Larger US lathes are designed with some built in human ergonomics. The smaller imports lack many of these. Examples: Production machines have clutches, levers for fast easy operation, drives on every axis, easily oiled moving parts, rapid moving cranks and quality bearings. Things move quickly and easily despite the heavier weights involved. The smaller imports, particularly the 3n1's, have stiffer movement of parts, slower turning cranks, more difficult oiling points and use brass bearings in places where the bigger machines use ball bearings. Setups on the 3n1's are slow too. I have been much happier with my old US iron than I was with my ShopTask, but I was thrilled when I got the ShopTask and made real honest to goodness chips. The ShopTask did pay for itself before it was sold. A few commercial jobs paid back the full cost and then some, but some of those jobs took forever to finish. I was cautioned about combining the mill and the lathe by people who had experience in real machine shops. I figured the space saving, versatility and cost were worth the extra time and inconvenience of setups. My original purchase was with a hobby shop in mind and possibly a few paying jobs from time to time. I soon learned that once word got around that a machine was in the neighborhood, there was all kinds of work to be done. That's when I understood the disadvantage of having a single machine to do multiple jobs. Taking setups apart is almost as much fun as cleaning up chips after a day's work. At least you can leave vises on the table of a big mill. It can be dialed in and setup properly and not moved often. On the ShopTask it has to be set up and dialed in each time you change from a lathe to a mill. NOT fun. Doug in Houston ------- Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 15:01:45 -0600 From: "jwalters" Subject: New Servo Mill Over the last year that I have been in the Taigtools group I have heard many good reports on the stepper motor version of the Taig CNC mill. The machine seems to have no reliability problems and I have never seen a used mill for sale on E-Bay, yes I have looked. My question is how is the new servo motor Taig CNC mill working out. How does the servo mill compare to the stepper mill. In the future I would like to get in line to purchase a Taig CNC mill and would like to make the best choice between value and performance. Thanks John Walters ------- Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 21:17:02 -0000 From: "variousgroups " Subject: Re: Taig mills "oodnadata <"sdimitri...>" wrote: > Does anyone know how the taig mills compare to the sherline models? > From the pictures it seems to be a more robust machine. Sure, Taig is beefier, so is Grizzly, so is Prazi. BUT... how many of us over fifty would want to lift one of those buggers onto a kitchen counter top just to make the occasional part? They weigh anywhere from 2.5 to 8-or-so times as much. The Sherline is a light-weight machine with very useful capabilities, and, as long as one's expectations are modest, a Serline will deliver excellent service. For me it's a question of the possible. If I did have a permanent work room, didn't live in an apartment, then I would buy a Prazi, but, since I don't, I haven't. The Germans (who make Prazi) have a saying worth recalling "Wenn meine Tante Räde hätte wäre sie ein Omnibus (If my aunt had wheels she'd be a bus)". You gotta go with the givens. Mike ------- Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 11:50:58 -0500 From: Ken Grunke Subject: Re: Quality of Sherline products? Scott Meyer wrote: >I am very seriously considering buying a Sherline Mill and lathe When I purchased my mill 4 years ago, I didn't realize that the main castings were made of aluminum until I accidentally plowed into the mill table with an endmill. I was pretty dismayed to find that out, but I could see that the mill was otherwise exceptionally well made and designed, so I was happy with my purchase. It's a hard aluminum alloy, and anodized for wear protection. Because of it's aluminum construction, it's important to keep slide surfaces clean to prevent scoring. Felt wipers would be a good idea, maybe the new models have them but mine didn't. One of the most useful setups I have is mounting the column and headstock on my Compact 8 lathe cross-slide, for index-milling of bolt heads and the like. Ken Grunke http://www.token.crwoodturner.com/shop/ ------- Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 22:38:18 EDT From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Atlas Craftsman Model 101-15500 In a message dated 7/16/2003: > >I am new to this group. I have a friend who wants to sell me his Atlas > >Craftsman Horizontal bench top milling machine. It will need some > >rebuilding, as the power feed mechanism is not functioning. I have used > >vertical mills in the past. Can any users offer any suggestions on the > >advantages / disadvantages of horizontal vs. vertical? horizontals are much superior for gear cutting . verticals were not much used in early 1900's ..........almost all text info is on horizontals ...verticals took over for die work & most trained w/ them certainly would prefer them ......my 800 ? lb. horizontal puts my brdgprt M head to shame for taking a cut .much quieter & ridgid ,course B&S 9 vs B&S7/morse 2...have not run a R8 spindle brdgprt........atlas horizontals are in demand now ,& certainly ,if u dont add a vertical ,u will be holding ur head at a 90 deg. angle a lot ......i would not be w/out either ...sawing out is also much better w/ horizontal ...straddle cuts available ..... i use mine in preference for fluting taps ,reamers & cutters between centers too ....u will want a LARGE angle plate till u get a vertical.... also u will run out of space quickly w/ little atlas ...the vertical has become so omnipresent , one wonders how things were manufactured 1890 thru 1930...brdgprtfirst showed up about 1938 , BUT there were ridgid nonturret types around in 1920 like recent cintis, & maybe shapers picked up some slack...i would still buy an atlas in right circumstances, just to finish the foursome (12x36 , 7B shaper , 6x18) best wishes docn8as ------- Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 19:41:59 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Something I have noticed about this group In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "Michael R. Roesch" wrote: > You know since joining the group (with the intention > as suggested of learning about shapers before getting > one) I have noticed that you guys are WAY more laid > back than members of some of the other groups I haunt. > What is it about shapers? That mesmerizing > forward/reverse motion? The fact that not one of you > can seem to have just one shaper, kind'a like peanuts > I guess you just can't eat a handful. Do shapers have > some secret power that radiates from them? Is it > because shapers are just "cooler" than say mills? > Inquiring minds want to know... Mike Mike-- Some say that shapers are the preferred toys of the "intelligentsia" (whoever the hell those bigots are): shapers are just so far out...and forgotten as having ever existed by most...that they're kool and thus "in". (If I was a Dentist specializing in root canals at a Texas prison hospital, I would have a refurbised shaper purring in the waiting room...to get the con patients rev'ed up for what they expected was coming their way...and soon.) The seemingly boundless varieties that were made by virtually unknown (today) manufacturers, all across the land in small burgs and large alike, and the multitude of mechanical variations amongst them makes them also, from both archaelogical and machine design points of view, intriguing and inveigling mechanical marvels. That they are also capable of doing real machining work, although no longer industrially, gives them an added value. And then there is their relative rareness to consider also: anyone can buy a Bridgeport and anyday--Perfecto's, especially the motorized versions, are literally rarer than hen's teeth, the latter of which I have an almost complete collection of...but, still, no Perfecto. But, then there is the "Quest", the "Hunt", and, as some would say, that is the most pleasureable part of all. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 19:44:16 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Something I have noticed about this group You don't *have* to be crazy to own a shaper, but there does seem to be a strong correlation.... I guess mills provoke a serious demeanour, when you consider that the average mill owner quite likely has more money tied up in one cutter than I do in the toolbits for three shapers. Well, I do myself, the replacement costs of the endmills and slot drills I have would buy a whole shaper. And those little milling cutters sure do like to shatter! (Of course a vertical mill does not compare directly to a shaper.) I think there is something about the action of a shaper, they are just nice to watch. regards John ------- Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 19:34:23 -0800 (PST) From: William E Sharp Subject: Atlas input My name is Bill and I am located in Wilmette, IL. In searching about info on the Atlas milling machine via the web, I learned about this group. I am interested in any input on the Atlas bench top milling machine. I am an auto/motorcycle restoration buff, who spins small bolts and wheel spacers on my South Bend 9" lathe. I would also like to add milling capabilities to my small garage shop. I know I can get a milling attachment for the South Bend, but would like a bench top milling machine. I will most likely be milling small items. A Bridgeport would be nice for milling heads etc, but my garage is too small for a machine that large. I would like to avoid Pacific rim machines if possible. I am wondering what the capabilities of the horizontal Atlas are? Would a Burke or Clausing be a better option, for a bench top mill? I am also a member of the metal shaper group on Yahoo, and some of the members there have advised me to pass on the Atlas. I would greatly appreciate any input from persons who have used or own this machine. Thanks much! Thanks, William E. Sharp ------- Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 22:27:46 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Atlas input I have a similar small machine, and the main problems are workholding and chatter. The slot on the atlas is not often in the right place for use. The trough around the table is also a pain, as there isn't much table left. A Burke #4 (if I remember the numbers) is a workin' machine, with a much beefier overarm and better, wider table. To see it, look for Burke at http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/_2001_retired_files/ Looks good to me, but I have yet to see one for sale. Jerrold ------- Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 19:35:07 -0400 From: "Beachboard" Subject: Horizontal mill I realize it's a little off the subject of this group but I will take any input I can get and the group here seems to have experienced a lot in the area of old machines. I have the chance to get a small table top horizontal mill. I don't know the name. It is flat belt drive, three step pulley, built in indexer and the table moves in all three directions. Everything is there and works including the motor (it's an underdrive unit). Additionally it has a bar with a center that rides above the cutter spindle. You can extend it so that acts as an outboard center for spinning work while a cutter is held on the table below the work piece. Any ideas or thoughts on what this would be worth. Jim ------- Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 19:10:39 EST From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Horizontal mill buy it ...they are sturdy little beasts ...MANY operations work better on horiz...like gear cutting .& hogging ...negative is how much z axis u have w/a bench machine .( u can always mount a larger table on top )...many are a bit tight ........in fact verticals were rare till 1930's ..u can always mount a big angle block /plate on it & play crick in neck vertical w/ it.w/ endmill holders.....condition & tooling paramount ...lots were B&S 9 spindle ..arbors & tooling are pricy ( u can make them ) some were proprietary , usually bad news for tooling ....mine is floor mounted 6x24 ...& puts a brdgprt m head to shame for ridgidity ....u will probably have to make a jackshaft to get speeds to where really usable on steel ....i built a j/shaft, have double diam. drive pulleys to spindle & extra mtr drive pulleys on a sliding mtr shaft for 12 speeds 60 thru 1800 (belt slips little here)....4 in cutter on mild steel & u need qbt 80 rpm.... will send diag. if wished ,if u buy.it....watch for 3 phase mtr. ..that means some switches ,caps ,box, to make a static conv. or pay $100 , or buy another 3 phase for an idler , start it running w/ sw. with start caps, a rope or a single phase motor switched in& then out ..or buy a single phase mtr.........i paid 200 for mine 35 yrs ago (rescraped ) it runs in 2 3/4bronze bush , is dead nuts & any wear is taken up by nut at rear (w/ tapered bush/spindel )...i like that better than buying high grade ball/roller bearings ..X feed is a lever , Y & Z are screws.....am in process of fitting a detachable screw feed for x axis ....fully tooled & in ex cond.maybe $500 to 700 ......avg machine w/ one arbor 200 or so ought to buy it . not much market .....most of these were industrial & were pushed hard for production ....will require reworking to please a picky operator .......only market is home shop..........cant really give a price ..from pay me to take it away to maybe more than $700 for an absolute GEM....but be aware ...younger hsms have no knowledge of how much use these machines give & care even less...if it doesnt say bridgeport.??? i find i use my horiz, & shaper combined abt as much as my ancient m head....( better finish) so if u shell out alot, be prepared to name it & keep it best wishes docn8as ------- Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 00:25:27 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Horizontal mill As the others said, 1) Horizontal mills are hoggin machines, they do a good job of removing plenty of metal precisely. They do what a shaper does, but use a more expensive cutter, and do the removing more precisely, or at least it is easier for me to be precise with one. 2) The overarm is, as mentioned, for holding the cutter on an arbor. Get an older shop text and you will see what they are for and how to use the mill. Arbors should come with the machine, reduce price if no arbors supplied. You will want to find out what taper the spindle has. Morse #3 or one of the B&S is common. Jarno or some other weirdo taper is a negative. 3) Cutters for horizontal mills are more expensive, but are also cheaper used. The deals are out there. I bought about 200lb of them a couple of months ago for $50. So far I have only found maybe 25 out of 130 that are not usable or sharpenable. I have a Lewis, with a 4 x 18 table and an accessory vertical head. I like it a lot. I paid $600, but it was recently scraped-in and runs absolutely perfectly. If you don't get arbors with, you will have to make them. Without knowing what size or maker the machine is, there is no way to set a price. But I would take at least $100 off for no arbors. Having the indexer is cool. Worth the $100 back that was deleted for no arbor. Can you tell us what they ar and where? That would help us suggest a price and maybe one of us wants the other one....... BTW, a very nice variety is a Burke #4. I want one of those.... The Atlas version isn't bad either, esp with power feed, but its lighter duty than the Burke. Jerrold ------- Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 22:41:11 -0000 From: "n3xve" Subject: Re: Sherline 5400 vs Taig mill comparison? In taigtoolsx~xxyahoogroups.com, "jim_stoll" wrote: > I'm new to the group. I'm about to purchase a mill - either CNC out > of the box or for CNC conversion (likely the latter, as I have > limited funds!) Jim, I can appreciate what you are going through - I did the same thing two years ago. I was very close to sending the money to Sherline but changed my mind and bought the Taig. Sherline really puts a lot of effort into fit and finish and their equipment kind of reminds me of jewelry. Taig seems to pay a lot of attention to fit but until you use it it looks kind of clunky in comparison to Sherline. The main reason I switched to Taig was its "beefiness". Look at the slides in X,Y and Z - they are very robust and can take aggressive cuts without undue vibration. All three lead screws have ball bearings, substantial ball handles (which are a pleasure to use) and re-settable micrometer dials. I'll admit that the Sherline laser etched dials look nicer and are easier to read than Taig's (which are natural aluminum with stamped numbering) but Taig's are usable. In my opinion, the one place Sherline beats the Taig is in the motor and controller. Sherline uses a variable speed DC motor/controller combo whereas the Taig uses an single speed AC induction motor. I haven't seen the need for variable speed other than via belt changes but many owners report adding a DC motor to the Taig. Some install a Sherline motor while the majority will use a surplus treadmill motor. Either way, the mod isn't that difficult. This tool surprises me with its capacity. It isn't a Bridgeport but it can handle some fairly large setups. Taig doesn't do as good a job selling as does Sherline. I started out looking at Sherlines adds and their website which are excellent. And then bought Joe Martin's book on Table Top Machining (an excellent book by the way - I would definitely recommend buying it before you decide). These publications had me convinced that Sherline was the way to go then I looked at Nick Carter's website (www.cartertools.com). You owe it to yourself to go to that site and read Everything on it - he does a very good job of selling Taig equipment (I seem to remember that he also has a writeup comparing Taig and Sherline mills). I would also suggest buying the equipment from him if you go the Taig route - he is very helpful and his prices are excellent (I have no affiliation with Nick other than having bought several grand worth of machinery and parts from him). Anyway, pardon my rambling but I hope I have helped you somewhat. Ed Smith ------- Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 13:02:53 -1000 (HST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: Re: Sherline 5400 vs Taig mill comparison? I haven't used the Sherline mill or lathe, but went through a similar decision making process when I got my lathe. I was all set to buy the Sherline as well, but the cost of the tooling finally got me. I wasn't exactly rich then (nor am I now), so I had a hard cap I couldn't exceed. I got more tooling for the money with my Taig, which is the route I went. There's one other thing about the Taig mill and lathe I like, not so much in comparison with Sherline, but just in and of itself: I get the feeling Forrest knows people who buy his tools like to tinker. They're kinda like machine shop Legos. The lathe headstock fits the mill. The lathe chucks fit the mill headstock. You can use the headstock riser blocks from the lathe to extend the throat depth of the mill. It's one big bolt-together beastie. This lets you do some neat stuff that you wouldn't dream of doing on a tool like a Bridgeport. I've stuck two spindles on my mill at once, one going at a slow speed with and end mill, and another going at a higher speed with a small drill. Ungainly? Yes. Kinda cool? You bet. Save me from doing a toolchange? Well, that was the whole point. I also made an adapter plate that let me stick my entire lathe on the mill bed for some seriously oogly jobs. (Talk about ungainly!) I've used the mill itself as a lathe to do a couple of funky jobs. It's neat. I don't think the Lego-ishness of the Taig tools is particular to them. After talking to some Sherline owners, I've seen some of the same things done on those tools as well. The Taig tools just have more T-slots on them to make Lego-izing easier and less permanent. Tom P.S. I second the comments regarding Nick and Nick's site. In addition to years of excellent support and more tips and tricks than I could use in a lifetime, Nick's site is what finally sold me on Taig tools. ------- Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 01:32:46 -0000 From: "richard_lawler" Subject: Re: Sherline 5400 vs Taig mill comparison? I was recently pondering the same question and I decided on the Taig. I am glad I did. The following were among the issue I considered. They are not based on experience, but rather the perspective of a buyer in the same position. I don't think you would go wrong with either. Mostly the Taig is beefier than the Sherline. The Sherline weighs only 35 lbs whereas the Taig weighs 85-105 lbs. depending on the model. The Taig is available with a 12 in travel. Here's a picture of the two machines side by side: http://www.cartertools.com/ntaig26.jpg The Taig comes with almost no documentation. Sherline comes with lots of excellent documentation much of which is applicable to the Taig and is all available on line. Plus I'd recommend Joe Martin of Sherline's Tabletop Machining book. Just about everything in that book applies just as well to the Taig. Taig has a handful of accessories compared to Sherline. But if you are doing CNC you may not need that many accessories. Many Sherline accessories work with the Taig with no modification. The spindle motor of the Taig is said to be inferior to the motor on the Sherline. But a Sherline motor can be mounted on the Taig if you make a plate for it (a simple project if you have a mill!). And http://cnconabudget.com/ is working on an adapter to mount an entire Sherline spindle and motor on the Taig mill if that is what you desire. The Taig spindle doesn't have a standard taper and doesn't have a 3/8" end mill holder available as a standard option. The Taig is actually a bit cheaper than the Sherline. But that money could be applied to a Sherline motor or something. Here's a good web page of a guy who completely documented his new Taig mill and CNC retrofit: http://users.adelphia.net/~wjdupont/my_taig_cnc_mill.htm Richard Lawler ------- Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 21:22:00 -0500 From: "Carol & Jerry Jankura" Subject: RE: Re: Sherline 5400 vs Taig mill comparison? This is also true of the Sherline tools, so I'd call this ONE POINT a draw. >There's one other thing about the Taig mill and lathe I like, not so much >in comparison with Sherline, but just in and of itself: I get the feeling >Forrest knows people who buy his tools like to tinker. They're kinda like >machine shop Legos. The lathe headstock fits the mill. The lathe chucks >fit the mill headstock. You can use the headstock riser blocks from the >lathe to extend the throat depth of the mill. It's one big bolt-together >beastie. As for accessories, I believe that Sherline's array of tooling and accessories exceeds what Taig offers, so I'd rate Sherline over Taig on that point. When all's said and done, I often think of this being much the same as when we kids compared Lionel to American Flyer. For the record, I chose Sherline and feel that it's the best for my needs. However, I can't really fault those who feel the same about Taig equipment. The bottom line is both are well built and each is capable of doing most jobs that the other is. Jerry ------- Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 21:09:23 +0000 From: Clive Foster Subject: Re: Any advice on Mill Selection? > What would you think of a radial mill drill? The Rong Fu mini mill > drill has a swing of 38". There's also one from Top Tech > (http://www.penntoolco.com/catalog/products/4491.cfm) that doesn't > specify a swing, but I gather that it is 40" from it's other > measurements. I doubt I'll have to run this type of job very often, but > it would be a lot nicer for me if I didn't need to rely on a machine > shop for some of the bigger jobs. But if you guys think that a radial > is the wrong way to go then please let me know; I don't want to spend > money on something that won't work very well in the long run. > Thanks, this seems like a great hobby! Dan Dan: I've not actually seen one of these machines as none of the UK tool suppliers seem to bring them in these days. However basically they are a radial arm drill so the main purpose is to drill holes in relatively large work pieces. Milling capability is liable to be a bit limited considering the physical size of the machine. Usual mill/drill objections apply concerning loss of radial registration when going up and down the column so once you have the quill aligned you are limited to its vertical travel. As the radius of action is, usually, much larger than with a conventional mill drill (eg http://www.penntoolco.com/catalog/products/234.cfm) it can be much harder to get back any alignments inadvertently lost. Also it is not clear if there is any provision for accurate screw feed of the cutter head along the arm allowing the head to be moved to apply longer cuts than possible with the table traverse. The X-Y table is very small considering the machine size, you need to check the travel specification carefully, it could be as little as 4" x 8". Difficult to tell from the picture but the table looks on the light side for milling and one does wonder about the feed-screw solidity and accuracy. Overall it looks to be a respectable machine at an OK price but if the conventional Mill/Drill, such as the one I referenced above, is considered 50% Mill, 50% Drill this one is more like 25% Mill/ 75% Drill. Mine is very like the Ru Fong machine in http://www.penntoolco.com/catalog/products/4198.cfm with an inverter driven 3 phase motor for infinitely variable speed control. Much quieter than the usual gears. Main gripe is the usual sloppy feed screws, I'll have to fix it sometime but for now a 3 axis DRO makes the beast perfectly useable. Prolly wait until I ball-screw it for CNC. From what I've seen and heard, the small knee mills such as this on http://www.penntoolco.com/catalog/products/4487.cfm are the pick of the bunch unless you really need to do a lot of drilling. About 90% Mill / 10% Drill, same as a Bridgeport really. As ever its horses for courses and all we HSM types usually end up having to make one machine cover a number of courses. You really need to see and talk to an HSM who actually uses these machines. Might be worth asking the suppliers if they know anyone local who would give you a chat/demo for the price of a few beers. Most enthusiasts just love to talk! Clive ------- Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 11:58:52 -0700 From: "Derek B." Subject: RE: OT: Homier Mill/Drill Question It depends on what you are going to need to use it for. They are considered a kit if you want to do accurate work. As general purpose mill for non accurate things they work ok. I have one laying on the floor in my garage similar to this one. I never use it. I like the Taig it is a better built piece of equipment made in the USA. You say it is not in your budget. Well how about having a piece of metal laying around that you never use except to anchor the floor down :) I never have regretted getting any my mills except that one. My opinion is save up for a Taig. Derek B. WWW.DenverCNC.com ------- Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 14:50:01 -0600 From: "Trick" Subject: Re: OT: Homier Mill/Drill Question I have the Homier 600# version of the Rong-Fu 31. It is Red, not green. I got it at a Homier sale for $499. No shipping, but sales tax. http://www.homier.com/itemdetail.asp?i=03988 Anyway, those like you asked about a lot of people buy. There is a yahoo group just on Homier brand tools. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/homiershoptools Also, the yahoo group mill/drill has a lot of users that have that machine and the HF/Grizzly versions of it. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mill_drill/ The common complaint that I see about them is that the column is thin walled and flexes. The upgrade is to fill it with concrete or get a thicker walled column. Some also fill the base with concrete just to give it more mass. I went to 3 homier sales before I bought the large mill/drill and I was real close to buying this dovetail mini mill. http://www.homier.com/itemdetail.asp?i=03947 It is much more robust than the Taig mill (Comparing my taig lathe headstock to the head on the mini mill that is) Plus it has an R-8 spindle taper. Make sure you sign up to Homier so you get notifications of Homier mobile sales in your area. Sometimes you get deals like I did on my mill. But even if you don't you can pick it up there and save shipping and the wait. Plus you will end up buying all sorts of things you didn't realize you needed till you see them dirt cheap. =~) You have to go the first day of the sale though because the good stuff (mills and lathes) go quick. Ric ------- Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 17:44:38 -0600 From: "Lawrence Hladun" Subject: Re: OT: Homier Mill/Drill Question Concrete shrinks when it sets and therefore will be of little value. Use an expanding grout that is used under structural steel column base plates. It would also much easier to mix and place into any cavity. can be obtained from firms (contractors and material suppliers) catering to large construction projects. ------- Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 19:46:27 -0000 From: "wishbone_aaa" Subject: Re: OT: Homier Mill/Drill Question There's a review written on the Homier mill at: http://www.mini-lathe.com/Mini_mill/Main/mini-mill.htm Don ------- Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 13:43:10 -0000 From: "rrh0001" Subject: Re: Busy Bee machines Kel I purchased one of the Craftex B1977 mill drills a few years ago. Busy Bee's price was far and away the best around here (Toronto area) and the machine did the basic milling jobs quite well. Just two things to note: 1) I purchased a set of R8 end mill holders from them and found that they would not seat properly. The reason appears to have been that the positioning stub in the mill spindle was a hair oversized. I tried filing it down but it's awkward to reach and pretty hard stuff. I eventually threw in the towell, returned the R8 holders to Busy Bee and bought a similar set (at an even lower price believe it or not) from KBC Tools. The holders were both imports but the slot in the KBC holders was slightly wider and would accomodate the enlarged stub on the Craftex mill. 2) When I unpacked the mill/drill I found that the wood used in the packing crate was crawling with insects. They looked like small beetles. Since I live near a hardwood forest I killed those I could see, burned the wood and took special care to clean up the shop floor afterwards. The advent of the Asian long-horned beetle in these parts is a reminder to be careful in disposing of packing crates etc when the product comes from somewhere outside North America. Apart from those two points, and I've purchased lot's of other machines and tooling from them over the years, I've found Busy Bee's products quite satisfactory and their service has been good. Ramsay ------- Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 00:08:05 -0000 From: "Jason Spangle" Subject: Re: Got my 8-direction Sherline mill up for grabs > Why are you selling it favor of the Minitech? I run a model engineering and toy shop. This machine will be put to tool & die work. The main strengths are THK ball screw actuators (sherline uses acme lead screws) and THK linear slides (sherline uses dovetails). I also had the machine custom built, it's nearly twice the capacity of the sherline mills. At its highest setting, (upgraded controller) the resolution is .0000078125 (I'm sure this varies slightly from machine to machine). But to answer your question, I needed an industrial machine for miniature work, and Haas was out of my price range... 10k for the minitech is a drop in the bucket compared to the Haas. The minitech is pretty sweet, they even included some high speed spindles so I could route doll house window frames and model airplane fuselage parts. go to www.minitech.com if you want to check 'em out. Jason ------- Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 01:34:51 -0000 From: "Jason Spangle" Subject: Re: Got my 8-direction Sherline mill up for grabs > 0.0000078125 inch ???? It is 0.0002 mm. > Are you sure that the temperature does not make bigger difference ? > Best regards PavelK Yeah, that is something to think about. I believe the resolution is actually the motion of the stepper motors, I could be wrong. I debated about getting the servo option, but it was nearly a third more (of the total cost of the machine). Another good thing about the steppers, is that they allow manual control of the mill, just like my ol'sherline. So that's the main reason why I'm selling the 2000 model on eBay. I didn't need two mills. isn't that resolution crazy? Jason ------- Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 22:05:34 -0500 From: "Carol & Jerry Jankura" Subject: RE: Re: Got my 8-direction Sherline mill up for grabs Hi, Jason: It'll be interesting to see what your real resolution turns out to be. Besides the temperature coefficients that Pavel mentioned, there's also the inherent motor accuracy. If I remember correctly, stepper motors generally have a plus or minus half step (non accumulating) error. Which means that if your leadscrew is 20 tpi (Sherline's standard) and your stepper motors are base 200 step/rev, there's at least an error of 0.00025 inches due to the mechanics. And, we still haven't factored in any backlash into the equation. It's tempting to take the leadscrew pitch and use microstepping resolution to calculate a theoretical "inches per step," but that calculation is generally nowhere close to what you'll actually get. Jerry ------- Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 01:32:00 -0500 From: "Statman Designs, LLC" Subject: Re: Re: Got my 8-direction Sherline mill up for grabs I just looked at the Minitech site. They are charging $1850 for a Sherline rotary table with a 3-jaw chuck, a 250 oz-in stepper motor and a driver?? Wow, I was going to start selling drugs, but this is where the real profit margin is, ;-). I calculate my 4th axis cost me at full Sherline retail, $300 for the table, $125 for the chuck, $50 for the stepper, and $50 for the 4th axis Xylotex stepper driver, for a total of $525. Of course you have to spend 30 minutes wiring it together. Daniel J. Statman, Statman Designs www.statmandesigns.com dan.statmanx~xxrennlist.com ------- Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 06:51:05 -0000 From: "Jason Spangle" Subject: Re: Got my 8-direction Sherline mill up for grabs Dan, they don't sell you the equipment at that price, when you get a quote from them, it's usually less. All the stuff that was done to my cnc mill, I figured would be at least 13 or 15 grand. By the time everything was said and done, it was somewhere around $9500. I like the company, they are also one of the first (if not THE first) desktop/benchtop manufacturers to offer 5th and 6th axis capabilities. At a price for the small to medium production shop. They don't mess around, even the guy at Flashcut CNC told me to go with Minitech over their gantry machines, after he & I talked about what I wanted to do with it. What I liked about both companies, is that they didn't talk bad about each other, even though they were in competition with each other... that tells me a ton about both companies, it's how business should be conducted. I'll definitely be in line for the 5th axis when it becomes available. Jason ------- Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 09:34:36 -0500 From: "Ron Ginger" Subject: Re: Micro-Mark Lathe and Mill I had a Grizzley micro mill- they are all the same, just a different paint job and some minor changes to things like handles and switches. John is correct that the actual work volume is not much bigger than a Sherline. And the vertical colum is attached with a single BIG nut at the base- I had a hell of a time getting it trammed in- and the slightest grab in cutting and it was all over. It was also an offensive thinkg to hear running- noisy motor and gear noise. I recently got a Prazi mill, considerably bigger and a much better built machine. Of course, its also a lot more money. There are pictures of my Sherline, Grizzley and now the Prazi on my web site http://plsntcov.8m.com ron ginger ------- Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 16:05:52 -0500 From: Charle B Vincent Subject: Re: Mill or shaper?? Vince Ancona wrote: >I know this is a very open-ended question, but here goes. What >is the difference between a mill and a shaper, and which one >is more useful?? A shaper pushes a sharp cutting tool across a piece of work removing a small chip. It essentially replaced a man with a scraper or chisel. A shaper has a mechanism that moves the work left or right a little at a time so that each cut is spaced but parallel to the last. A shaper is relatively easy to set up if not always intuitive and the tools are easy to sharpen, but the speed of metal removal is limited by how it can move the ram carrying the cutting bit back and forth. The milling machine was developed to speed up removal rates. A milling machine uses a rotating cutter. They come in two principle varieties, horizontal and vertical. Horizontal milling machines, which were introduced first, have for the most part gone the way of the shaper in industry, but they can remove metal like nothing else. A big one can have you wading in chips in no time. They work something like a wood working planer. Vertical milling machines work like a woodworking router and is pretty much the standard these days. If I were choosing between a small horizontal milling machine and a shaper, I would go with the shaper, since a shaper will do most of what a horizontal mill will and more at the cost of speed. Tooling is cheaper and easier to sharpen and maintain. It is also pretty easy to make a small vertical milling head to fit a small shaper ( I have helped build a couple in the past). However, if I was choosing between a small vertical mill and a shaper, I would probably go with the vertical mill. It will accomplish most of the jobs found in the home shop and details for its use are more readily available. There are a lot more how to articles and plans published for vertical mill and its accessories. Charles ------- Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 19:28:49 -0000 From: "Jim Knighton" Subject: Re: Jet mill In sherline, "taulpaul69" wrote: > I looked at > the picture of your mill, It looks like a nice mill,I was wondering > if the round column gave any problems when milling sideways? Paul, I've had the Jet mill/drill for abt 5-6 years. There are a lot of folks who don't like the round column, but in fact I've not found it to be a problem. You get used to the idiocyncracies of the tools you use on a regular basis, and may even discover that supposed "shortcomings" or "weaknesses" are not as they seem and in fact may have advantages. Such is the case with the round column. On the downside, whenever you change the height of the head you lose spindle alignment with whatever is underneath it. So you compensate by using shorter tooling and/or figure out how to realign things without too much difficulty. On the upside, the head can be rotated to perform operations that would be tricky otherwise. For instance, the other day I had to flycut a wide piece of aluminum. There wasn't enough "y" axis travel to do this in a single setup with the head in it's normal position. There was intrinsically enough "y" travel, but it was in the wrong place relative to the workpiece clamped in the milling vise. However, by rotating the head abt 45 degrees, I was able to compensate and mill the piece without difficulty. Clearly, you can't do that on a machine with dovetail slides and you have to work out some other accomodation. Sure, I'd like a full size Bridgeport type of machine but even if the $$$ wasn't an issue, I simply don't have room for anything that big. So, of necessity I have to "think small" and then be creative about how I use the machines at my disposal. Regards, Jim ------- Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 01:17:02 -0000 From: "Jim Knighton" Subject: Re: 8-direction vertical mill [sherline group] > My real problem is with the rigidity of the whole machine. All the > accuracy in the world won't do a thing if the mill bends too easily. > I am sure that it is stiff enough for the work it does or it wouldn't > sell. But I would rather have a more rigid machine. I have 2 5400 mills (horizontal and vertical) and 1 2000 mill in my shop. While much is said and written about the "rigidity problem", I have to report that at least in my shop with my machines there isn't much difference between the the 2000 and the 5400 mills in this regard. Both manage quite well and are excellent small machines. Maybe my experience isn't typical, but my 2000 mill is no less competent than the 5400 mills. Of the two models, my favorite is far and away the 2000 mill and its wide range of setup options has proven to be highly useful. Personally, I think the 2000 mill gets an undeserved bad rap regarding rigidity, difficulty with alignment, etc. While all three mills are used regularly in my shop and all have a place, if I had to live with just one it would definately be the 2000. For what it's worth, all three mills are set up with steppers and DRO. I'm still struggling to learn how to use CNC, however, and at present am using the steppers more for power feeds than anything else. Regards, Jim ------- Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 17:35:37 -0800 (PST) From: John Maki Subject: Re: Re: 8-direction vertical mill I also have both a 2000 and a 5400 mill. The 2000 is my CNC mill, and probably gets a little more use than the 5400. Most of my work is in brass rather than steel, so the loading is probably quite light. I also use both mills for machining wood...typically ebony and cocobolo. Results have been excellent with no difference noted between the mills. John Maki ------- Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 23:55:42 -0000 From: "mineralman55" Subject: Re: mill >looking to buy a small mill but can only find chinese mini mills for sale About 1.5 years ago I purchased a Sieg X3 mill from Lathemaster. This is the next size up from the ubiquitous X2 mini mill. It is a true bench top mill, weighs about 300 lbs., has a dovetail column and has been a joy to use. It's rigid, accurate, and the inch dials are precise. If you need pictures, check out the www.tedatum.com. Larry ------- Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 22:46:43 EST From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Digest Number 2128 [was Re: mill] >looking to buy a small mill but can only find chinese mini mills for > sale. Anybody have an opinion on these? I have one of Harbor Fright versions of the mini mill. The first thing on the HF model is that the lead screws are 16 TPI which means there is .625" feed per revolution. Then the idiots marked the dials in .001 which left .0265 over on the last division. But, you can get replacement screw and nuts along with the dials from MicroMark (which I did) (Replacing the screws gives you good chance to clean up the slides and adjust gibs etc.) Of course they are no Bridgeport as I found out, any attempt at down milling (where the tool tends to self feed) is sure to be met with disaster which in my case was a shattered nylon gear in the head. Some have spindles that accept R8 collets and some with other sizes. I got the R-8 as I had some collets in that size already. The drill chuck that is included is doubtful at best. Kind of a gamble buying one of those machines or their little lathe, you might get a good one or one that is kind of a raw kit needing a lot of cleaning up and adjustments. Apparently quality control is not one of the strong suits in Chinese plants. (But getting better I understand) Parts and accessories are stocked by Little Machine Shop if you need any as it is a long slow voyage to China for replacement parts. Unless you run across a used American Iron someplace that is the only game in town. So you might as well go for it. John Meacham in the high desert of California 12 inch Atlas, Minimill, HF bandsaw, rusty file ------- Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 19:53:14 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Need advice on mini mill We need to be a little clearer on the apples and oranges of mills... 1) Bridgeport is the gold standard,but, generally a space, weight, power (3 phase 220) and wear issues may need to be solved...I used a new Bridgeport with digital readout and power feed on long axis in shop class. 2) Mill Drills like a bench drill press on steroids (I own one). You have to realign every time you move the head because of the way they are designed. Should be good used ones out therein decent shape in your price range. Good size working table and lots of power to drive R8 (110 volt single phase). May need some tuning to deliver the goods. 3) Mini Mills are table top machines light enough to move without a crew of riggers and appear able to do smaller lighter work (especially in aluminum and brass). Interestingly these are available in various versions in made in USA as well as the various overseas imports from Prazi to Homier in a large range of prices and quality. There is no substitute for hands on use to answer the which-is-right-for- me question. Before you invest, investigate, is sound advice. In my own situation a six inch Craftsman Atlas and a table top (quality) milling machine would meet all my needs and be easier to set up in basement shop. Found this out by owning 4 lathes and a Mill Drill too heavy to easily move. In Michigan, due to seasonal weather extremes having a protected place to work and to protect machineryin Summer's heat, Winter's cold as well as the damp and rain of Spring and Fall is first priority. I have seen a lot of rusty machinery that once was valuable and useful now worth only a one way trip to junk yard. In my (limited) experience a machine ready to work beats a "project" unless you get a give away price AND are into machine reconditioning/rebuilding. If you want to use the machine NOW look for a machine that is up and running that you can try before you buy whether it be new OR used. Louis imho ------- Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 05:58:16 -0000 From: "formtool1" Subject: Potential Buyer [taigtools group] I have a Taig cnc mill that is 5-6 years old and use it to do second operation work from my screw machines and other types of parts. The materials that have been machined have been any thing from D-2 tool steel to plastics. I have machined 1000's of parts and the machine has never broken down or missed a beat, some of the cycle times are 20 min long and held tolerences of +/- .001. I work within the machine capabilities. I did however replace the motor with a DC motor and a regen controller. I also converted another Taig to a Horizontal machine. For the price and size it is a hell of a good machine. I have been working in machine shops for 50 years and know a good deal when I see one. Jim ------- Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 12:11:01 -0500 From: Ken Jenkins Subject: Re: Disappointments with Taig equipment Just some general comments regarding recent expressions of disappointment with the Taig equipment. Besides the obvious comments like, "You get what you pay for ...If you want more...You'll pay more ...",etc. One of the things that I've noticed about this group over the years is that whenever new people come around looking for information about the Taig gear what they get is a pretty honest run down from the folks here about BOTH the pluses and minuses of the Taig equipment and I haven't noticed much "bashing" of other similar machines (like the Sherline equipment) but fair and balanced comparisons. In my opinion most of the minuses have to with things like capacity/size, speed, power and the like, i.e. .... these are not "design flaws", they are simply the limitations of the machine. The disappointments I've seen come, quite frankly, from buyers not doing their homework before purchase only to find out that they couldn't do "xyz" after the fact. The Taig gear is what it is. With careful setup and planning, with creative fixtures and clever thinking it is remarkable how the operating envelope of these machines has been stretched by various users ... however there is a point at which it can be stretched no more. As for myself, I love the stuff! For the money I don't think you can get better gear in this range. It has made it possible for me (on a rather miserly "fun budget") to do CNC stuff, for example, that would have been out of the question only a few years ago. I suppose if I was trying to make a living from it my attitude might be a bit different ... maybe more critical .... And one of the best accessories you can get for your Taig equipment is still free. Membership in this group. Thanks to Nick for starting the group, and thanks to everyone here for the help, advice and inspiration you have given me over the time of my involvement here. I'm having a great deal of fun! Happy New Year! Ken Jenkins ------- Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:21:41 -0700 From: "Andrew Werby" Subject: Taig CNC - MaxNC Mill Comparison On 23 Jun 2005 "Paul W. Chamberlain" asked for a Taig CNC - MaxNC Mill Comparison: >> Hello, lurker here... It looks like I'll finally have the funds to jump into Desktop CNC. Looking at the two factory websites, and reading messages at both user groups, I think I've settled on a Taig CNC Mill and a MaxNC Lathe. However, I've not seen any of the machines beyond the various photos posted. I would like to see a comparison between the MaxNC 15 CL2 and the Taig MicroMill 2000LE, both with the 4th axis option (with tailstock). I've scanned the web and haven't found a feature by feature comparison, even on the base CNC mills. << [I own both machines, and have a fair amount of experience with them. While these mills are superficially similar, the details of construction reflect different priorities on the part of the respective manufacturers. MaxNC mills are designed to be as inexpensive and easy to manufacture as possible, with features added that sound good to the prospective buyer. Taig mills are made to be as rigid and problem-free in operation as possible, while still coming in within a price range that's affordable for a hobbyist or artisan. But let's compare them feature by feature: The Frame: The MaxNC frame is basically three pieces of aluminum extrusion, which are held together with setscrews and an aluminum brace. The sliding parts are all aluminum on aluminum, which soon galls in use. (The blue anodizing is just decorative, not hard.) To use it, the slide must be loose enough to avoid sticking, which means a sacrifice of rigidity. Users need to back out the set screws on the gibs, then loctite them into place to keep them from vibrating out. The Taig has a vertical column made from a section of square steel tube, a steel horizontal base, a massive aluminum casting to carry the bed and the prismatic steel slides of the Y-axis, and a solid steel box-ways assembly for the Z-axis. All its slides are steel with tapered brass gibs. The Leadscrews: MaxNC uses 1/4" diameter acme screws; the Taig uses 1/2" diameter screws. MaxNC screws often bend in use (or abuse); I've never seen that happen to a Taig, even when crashed. The Nuts: MaxNC uses anti-backlash (springloaded) "supernuts"; the Taig uses bronze nuts which adjust for wear with a setscrew. Consequently, the MaxNC can claim zero backlash, while the Taig will have .003" or so of backlash (this is the distance between the engagement point of the nut and screw when changing directions). However, the "supernuts" are only going to take up 10 lbs of total counterforce (cutting forces, slide friction, and screw friction) before giving back the backlash to the extent of the spring's compression. Additionally, the plastic bodies of the supernuts tend to crumble in use, possibly because of the thread- locking compound they're glued in with. Users should count on replacing them rather frequently. The Screw Mounts: The MaxNC uses a solid coupler to fix the turned-down (but not flatted) screw ends directly to the stepper motor. Since the bearings in the motor are made to float, this means that end-play is considerable, and unconstrained. Also, any inaccuracy in the screw alignment is transmitted to the motor shaft, which has to take all thrust and axial loads. The Taig has a solidly-mounted bearing block to hold the screws at the motor end, and adjusts end-play to zero with a plastic- lined nut. The motion is transmitted with a system of two facing disks connected with nylon tube sections fit in mating holes, which eliminates damage caused by shaft misalignment. The Motor Mounts: The MaxNC attaches the motors to the extrusions directly, using two of the four lugs on the motor castings. Taig provides 3-piece aluminum mount assemblies which accomodate their coupling arrangement and allow the motors to be finely adjusted in and out. These do extend the footprint of the mill by several inches, though. The Spindle Motor: MaxNC uses Dayton Universal 1/5 hp motors with bushings, not ball bearings, that go at 10,000 rpm. These are mounted on aluminum posts and tend to vibrate a lot until they ultimately burn out (or up). I've found that it was better to get these motors replaced at Grainger's, since they warranty them for a year, during which they had to replace them several times (MaxNC wanted to charge for replacing them each time). Taig uses a massive 1/4 hp Frankin motor, which goes slower but lasts much longer. The MaxNC system does allow the motor speed to be controlled by software, and has a relay to stop the spindle at the end of a program; Taig requires one to set the speed with the pulley cluster, and to turn off the spindle manually. However, the Taig system will multiply torque at the slower settings, which is good for cutting hard materials; the electronic speed control only yields the original torque of the motor, if that. The Control System: MaxNC has developed a closed loop stepper system that is the best feature of their machines, when it works. Instead of losing steps and ruining a part because it has lost track of its position, the system will fault out with a "servo error" if it encounters too much counterforce. It works by using encoders on the stepper motors, and it does get much better performance out of them than its standard open-loop system (up to 50 ipm versus 12 ipm for the MaxNC OL). Unfortunately, this system often develops problems which cause it to fault out at inconvenient times, or constantly. This can be caused by grounding issues, quality-control issues, by interference due to brush wear in the spindle motor, or by other things that nobody can track down. Taig uses a less sophisticated half-stepping chopper drive system, which is reliable up to about 30 ipm (once it's dialed in), but will tend to lose steps if pushed much faster. The MaxNC CL system is proprietary software which only runs in DOS, although I've heard that Mach3 can be used instead to run it under Windows (except I haven't heard from anybody who has actually got this to work yet). The Taig system will also run in DOS, and comes with its own software (MPS2003) to do that. In addition, it can run under 3rd party step/direction software like TurboCNC or Mach2/3. The Warranty: MaxNC will take back a mill within 15 days of purchase, and charge a 10% restock fee. The warranty for defects in parts and workmanship is only for 90 days. They have a 1-year warranty on defective parts only - faulty workmanship isn't covered after 90 days. Transportation costs and their "crating fee" are extra. Taig has a 14-day free refund policy, and a 2 year warranty on parts and workmanship. The Spindle: The Taig and the MaxNC use the same spindle assembly (made by Taig). The Rotary table: The Taig and Max NC use the same rotary table (made by Sherline). The Tailstock: Neither manufacturer offers a tailstock, athough the Sherline tailstock can be adapted for either machine.] >> Short of that, I would be interested in a pro and con list for each model that would cover the same details. I'm posting this on both user group sites. So, hopefully I can glean the info I'm after from both groups. Not a "mine is better than yours" discussion, but a technical comparison, much like reviews/comparisons done in other trade magazines.<< [Let me know if there are any features you're interested in that I missed.] >> My intended use is for small parts within the capacity of these machines, primarily for model engines. I want to get past the typical look of barstock designs with more of a Victorian look... without buying castings or waiting until I build that backyard foundry. ;-) The materials I have in mind would be: aluminum, brass, cast iron and mild steel. << [The MaxNC can handle soft materials, up to aluminum or maybe brass. It's best at wax or plastics, where its extra speed will come in handy. For cast iron and steel, you're better off with a Taig, which has the rigidity and low-speed spindle torque you'll need for these hard materials.] >> I want these yesterday, so I'm not inclined to go the DIY route. Plus, I'd rather have a single vendor to deal with for future parts and service on the same machine. My years dealing with computer vendors taught me how the cross blame game works. ;-) I'm one of those Jack of All Trades - Master of None types. I have over 25 years in electronics and computers. Have been a diesel mechanic, machinist, welder and fabricator. My last job was running various size FADAL Workcenters, including setup and program changes. Even hand programmed and ran a Bridgeport tape mill back 25 years ago. So, I feel I can get past many of the start up woes I have read on the groups. << [Don't expect any desktop machine to take the sort of cuts you can do on a Bridgeport. And it won't have the convenience of a Fadal VMC with a toolchanger. But on small jobs, particularly with small cutters, it can do real work quite effectively. With all your experience, it sounds like you've got a leg up on most of us.] >> I already have several manual machines, including a few Asian makes... two mini lathes and both a mini and micro mill. My American lathes are a Sheldon 10" and a Sherline with most of the attachments... along with a few American Watchmaker lathes. A SuperMax 9"x49" VarSpeed knee mill is standing by for those jobs too large for the mini's. I also have just about all the workholding and cutter stuff I'll ever need... at least until the next catalog shows up. << [Spoken like a true tool-junkie...] >> I'm a new lurker here, but I've been a member of many machinist related groups for some time... I'm member 24 out of 5098 on the 7x10minilathe group (I joined 2 months after Jose Rodriguez). Thanks in advance for any help in making my final decision on the two mills. Paul, Central OR << [Sure, Paul, let us know what you think when you've actually got one or another of them.] Andrew Werby www.computersculpture.com ------- Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 06:07:02 -1000 (HST) From: benedict-listx~xxhawaii.rr.com Subject: Re: Critique of Taig CNC lathe [taigtools] I'm catching up on mail these days, so bear with me if your questions have been answered in depth already. But here's my $0.02: On Thu, 29 Dec 2005, madpeman wrote: > I'm seriously considering buying a Taig CNC lathe with the 4th Axis > option. I need it to do some very limited prototype numbers > in plastic (small, .5 inch dia and 4 inches or list) I'm guessing you mean the CNC mill since Taig doesn't make a CNC lathe that I know of. (Not that it matters too much since the CNC mill can be used as a CNC lathe without a tailstock.) Mine has done a good job on practically every plastic I've thrown at it. Do use some sort of cooling system for plastic machining, though, since chips have a huge tendency to weld and gob. The last time I did ABS I used a small air jet off my compressor. The last times I did Delrin and nylon I just cranked up the flood cooling and things went fine. I think either one would work well for plastics, but flood cooling kept the chips in the pan. I've run a 1/4" end mill just shy of 1/2" deep in nylon without slowing the mill down. I don't think you'd have any problems with .5" dia plastic parts. > I also want to use it to make some custom motercycle parts out of > Aluminum or Steel (small stuff, like knobs, in an envelope of > 4 by 12 by 5. 12" might be pushing it unless you get the long table version of the mill. Aluminum works well, but the mill can be a little slow if you're primarily cutting steel parts, especially in the several-inches x several-inches size range. I've done some fairly hefty aluminum parts for work with no problem. > I'm an engineer, familiar with milling and turning and 3D cad, need > to learn machine tool path creation process, but probably have an > avialable help if neccessary. I have a mill and lathe for roughing > stuff out or finishing items. Good deal. Having manual machines on the side is always a bonus. > Can anyone give me a critique of what they think of the machine, the > quality, and overall satisfaction. Overall highly satisfied. > With the 4th axis, is it possible to make something with a distorted > circle as an outside perimeter (an ellipse for example). I think the > rotary option only allows 180 deg of rotation, so this would need > rechucking to do this?. Or can it take a piece and work on it around > 360 degrees (not neccessary lathe type rotation) The 4th axis is a full 360+ rotary stage. How it's driven depends on the software you use. I use TurboCNC, which handles continuous rotation just fine. Mach software will also do this with no problem. Past that it's up to how you generate toolpaths. Doing your elliptical profile shouldn't be a problem with the rotary stage. The real trick will be the software you use to generate the tool- path, or how much time you're willing to spend cranking out a toolpath by hand. Odd though that last bit may sound for doing something like an ellipse, you'd be amazed what's possible with a spreadsheet. I mostly use Rhino3D, IntelliCAD, and Vector CAD/CAM these days, but for mathematical functions the spreadsheet route isn't a bad one to go. > Are there any options I ought to consider getting for it other than the > 4th axis table and the extended table? Those are the biggies for the mill. Consider looking at spindle motor replacements unless you can get the mill with a 1/4 HP motor (which I think you can these days.) Mine came with a 1/10 HP, which was under powered for what the mill is capable of. I replaced it with a 1HP variable speed DC motor and have been pleased as punch with the change. > Anything else I ought to consider? However much you spend on the mill, expect to spend about half that on tooling (vises, end mills, indicators, calipers, etc. all cost, unfortunately.) Also expect to spend half that or more on software. I was a little appalled to see what high end CAD/CAM software can cost ($10k for MasterCAM last time I looked.) Shop around. Find what works for your application. Software that will do 4-axis code natively typically puts you in a bracket around $500 and up. But consider running the 4-axis system by moving only three axes at a time, leaving the Y axis fixed with the cutter centered over the rotary axis. Except for parts with hideously complex surfaces (like turbine blades) most of the stuff you'd cut on a rotary axis can be done in this configuration. There's tons of information on the web about parts that were made using this kind of setup. > I have a very basic Roland DGA machine good for plastic and wax in 3d, > but pretty small. It will not even come close to what I want to do? I > am thinking of ditching this when I get this. The Taig is a much heavier duty machine. > Any info would be a big help. I feel like a bit of a cad for asking this (no pun intended) since I live out in the boondocks and probably can't do this myself, but where are you located? If there's someone nearby who's got a Taig mill, they may be interested in demonstrating it for you. (And if you happen to live near me, I won't feel like so much of a cad, and I'd happily show you my setup!) Tom ------- NOTE TO FILE: Following is another Sherline versus Taig mill comparison, that took place on the taigtools group. Lots of folks there own, or have owned, both machines. Same on the Sherline group. And both machines are supplemented or replaced by larger mills for larger work. As always, evaluate the debate for your particular needs. Both have some advantages over the other. And both can do most of the same stuff. Neither is a bad choice for work within its size limitations. The debate in taigtools was mainly well argued without emotion. The original questioner posted the same question to the Sherline group and you can find their comments there. Many of the same people are on both groups, which would never happen if one brand were really a lot better than the other. ------- Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 13:06:52 -0800 From: Monte Milanuk Subject: Sherline vs. Taig... Hello, I'm looking at getting into some basic bench-top machining at some point in the near future. Both the Taig and Sherline mill/lathe systems seem to offer what I'm looking for... and both seem to have options for adding DRO or CNC at some later date. Can someone w/ experience with both systems explain the pros and cons of each (as you see it; I realize opinions are highly subjective)? Perhaps discuss why you bought one vs. the other as well? I'm posting this to both the taigtools and sherline lists on groups.yahoo.com in order to try to hear from both sides on the matter. Thanks Monte ------- Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 17:28:08 -0800 (PST) From: juan gelt Subject: Re: Sherline vs. Taig... thanks for another chance to vent! as owner of both, i assure you it's NOT subjective at all: sherline vs taig LEAD SCREWS 1/4 20 1/2 20 z axis 24 ct crap steel boxed way and 3" steel column Oh man... I don't even need to go on. Taig is twice the machine a sherline is. And taig has serious engineers paying attention to what makes a machine spit out good parts. Sherline puts the money into laser engraved, powder coated toy. Sherlne is good for anything soft. A 1/4 drill bit in aluminum will merely buckle the z. Sherline is a very pretty toy. Taig is a very nice desktop mill. If you wanna buy my old sherline real cheap to judge for yourself, lemme know!!! After all this time i'm still pissed off i got it. ------- Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 03:15:55 -0000 From: "buffaloman97405" Subject: Re: Sherline vs. Taig... >> sherlne is good for anything soft. a 1/4 drill bit in aluminum will merely buckle the z. sherline is a very pretty toy... << A little bit of melodrama wouldn't you say? I am absolutely sure the Taig is a first rate machine nowadays although when they first came out I understand they had problems with welds snapping. After experiencing the frustration my friends were having with their early Taig mills, I went back to Sherline. The only complaint I have with the Sherline is its capacity. It is a smaller machine than the Taig. To extend the capacity of my Sherline I added a 1/2" chuck to mine and also added a column riser and extended the headstock out two inches. I also machined out larger mill holders and can use, and have used, 5/8" mills. I mill bronze, brass and aluminum most of the time but also do steel with no problems. Many of the drilling problems stem from not using the proper drill or mill for the type of metal being worked. I drill 1/2" holes in steel and brass on a regular basis with no problem. I used a Sherline lathe, Taig lathe and Sherline mill to build my first bronze steam engine. They all performed equally well. I think now you will find the Taig mill very good. I wouldn't hesitate buying one if I needed one and could afford it. I am not up on CNC other than what I read here and on Sherline CNC sites but I think Taig is more main line. And as I said before it has a larger capacity. If you check the files and photos of this forum you will see that a lot of Taig people do not find Sherline all that profane. A lot of Taig owners of Taig lathes and mills are using Sherline parts to hybrid their Taigs. I use Sherline chucks and collet sets on my Taig lathe. I am thinking of using the Sherline motor and speed control on my Taig lathe too. ------- Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 19:38:47 -0800 (PST) From: juan gelt Subject: Re: Re: Sherline vs. Taig... :) melodrama, passion, mechanical lust... it's like i married my mills or something... so yah. sherline speed controlled motor roxxors. sherline spindle is good, too. their backlash adjustment is easy to get at. their delrin gibs aren't the 2 oz brass slugs of a taig...once powder coating fails on the sherline ways or carriage, the friction is incredible. put a sherline motor on a taig mill and you've got a super desktop beastie! ------- Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 06:57:32 -0000 From: "buffaloman97405" Subject: Re: Sherline vs. Taig... > their backlash adjustment is easy to get at. > their delrin gibs aren't the 2 oz brass slugs of a > taig...once powder coating fails on the sherline ways > or carriage, the friction is incredible. Boy you sure got a bad Sherline. I used to sell them and never had one come back on me. I ran a commercial model shop using Sherline mill as the main mill. The first one had brass ways. Sold that one after ten years and bought a steel way model. I am still using that same mill after nearly 15 years. I upgraded the motor and hand wheels but everything else is still original. I must have run thousands of projects on both the mill and the lathe. Never had the anodizing wear off. I always clean and lube them thoroughly after using them. I treat my Taig the same way. I think my lathes and mill will outlive me. I taught model making class for a week each June in Maine. I had three Sherlines for 12 students. I retired in 2004 after fifteen years. Those lathes are still in use each year. We also had Taigs with similar results. The only problems we ever had was missuse, like running the carriage into the chuck, leaving the tommy bars in the chuck and starting up the lathe and stupid stuff like that. ------- Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 17:44:41 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: Sherline vs. Taig... Jaun: Your argument may carry more weight if it didn`t come from such a narrow perspective. Likewise I think you would have a hard time demonstrating one or the other is of little value. I also think most people who have worked on these machines would agree that construction quality of each is about the same and far better than the Asian Imports. Each machine has its strong points and weak points as well as design differences. It is up to the purchaser to match the machine to the work that they wish to do. Just because one is better suited for one type of work than the other has no bearing on the value of the other. I have used both Taig and Sherline machines for at least 15 years. I have owned a Taig mill and have worked on and modified several others. Under your logic I could make the same comments about the Taig Mill. Most of my customer work is on the smaller side one-off special unavailable items requiring high precision. Some examples would be parts for High-end collectable watches, very small Reverse flow nozzles for Medical Catheters, and parts of many sizes for Medical, Optical and other instruments. I do this work because these customers pay many times what I could get from work done on my larger machines. I do not use a Taig Mill for this work because of the following reasons. First a Variable speed motor is a must for this work. Second the oversize heavy ways and leadscrews lack sensitivity and feel when using small tooling. Third the Sherline offers more versatile setup options including tool holding options for the tools I wish to use. Fourth the Taig spindle lacks an effective preload nut (including the new design) for the type of stable micro machining that I wish to do. This is of coarse no concern for the type of work these machines are designed to do. For these reasons I could also say the Taig was of little value but it would not be true. If most of my work was at the upper limit of both machines I would definitely prefer the Taig Mill. However in that case a larger mill would probably be more efficient if you have the space for it. Also I would be more than happy to purchase your Sherline Mill cheap. Feel free to contact me off list. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 21:58:10 -0600 From: "Ken Ferrell" Subject: Taig or Sherline Mill I just replaced the motor on my Taig 2019-cr that has been converted to CNC, in a little over a year, I put over 5000 hours of run time on it, Granted 90% of my cutting is in wax or plastic but still its 5000 hours of spindle rotation and there has been some brass and several fairly large aluminum molds done and a few things in mild steel, basically I say that my Taig is an incredible small machine, and one hellauva workhorse. That said I'm planning on buying a Sherline 2000 mill. I love my Taig and it's made me some money but it does lack some geometric configurations that are only attainable by converting my Taig to 5 or 6 axis. (Yes it can be done, just win the lottery first!! ) The addition of the extra axis configurations on the Sherline 2000 will give me nearly the same articulation of a good knee mill except the table isn't controlled by the Z axis with a stationary quill. But this articulation does come at a cost, that being it doesn't have the rigidity of the Taig's steel box column. But that same lack of strength holds true even for the big 46 inch Bridgeports and Lagun knee mills we have at school. My Tool and Die instructor makes us tram a mill or at least sweep the table if we crash any thing bigger than a 1/8th end mill, and lo and behold most of the time they are out by a thou. Or more. So imagine what happens WHEN (NOT IF BUT WHEN) you crash a tabletop machine. Even a sturdy Taig I know because I've done it and YUP time to drag out the DTI and sweep the table and realign my column. Bottom line they both have a place just which do you need, and how much do you want to spend, are you going CNC or manual operation. For CNC I would definitely recommend TAIG with aftermarket driver and steppers, less expensive and better than either factory system. Peace Y'all Ken Ferrell ------- Mills [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Jay Greer" redwitch1x~xxearthlink.net Date: Sun Dec 10, 2006 8:40 am ((PST)) Ok guys: The time has come for me to invest in a mill. I have used my Atlas milling attachment for various light projects over the years. But now I am involved in work that will require an accurate dedicated mill. I am limited as to space and so cannot accommodate a floor mounted knee mill, I would love to have space for a Bridgeport! But, I will have to confine myself to a bench top mill. Sherline machines are too light for the medical tooling I work in. So, I am looking at the small mill known as the Rusnok. It seems to be a quality machine with a 1/3hp motor. It is five speed belt driven and has an XY axis of only 6x4 1/2". On the other hand, the German made Prazzi II Apollo at about the same price offers 10.24x5.5" travel and has a 1hp DC motor that offers infinite speeds. Then there is the Smithy that costs less but offers more options as well as a bigger table travel and costs less. My dilema is that I don't really know how good any of these machines are? I would appreciate hearing some comments if any of you are familiar with these machines. Best Regards, Jay Greer ------- Re: Mills Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Sun Dec 10, 2006 1:43 pm ((PST)) Look at spindle speeds. The higher the better. Some of these small mills have a top speed of 2000-2500 RPM. For small tooling (1/4" and smaller) you really need a LOT more RPM. 25,000 would be nice, but even 5000 - 10,000 would be a great improvement. You might look at the Taig CNC-ready machine. It has a different spindle drive system than the standard Taig which allows higher spindle speed. Jon ------- Re: Mills Posted by: "Jay Greer" redwitch1x~xxearthlink.net Date: Sun Dec 10, 2006 3:06 pm ((PST)) Hi Jon: Thanks for the input. The Taig, like the Sherline, looks too light for my needs. There is another mill, the Wabeco, that is similar to the Prazi. It has infinitely variable speeds from 180 to 3,000rpm and weighs in at 290 lbs, and offers CNC as well. I will keep my eyes and ears open before deciding. Cheers, Jay ------- Re: Mills Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" Date: Sun Dec 10, 2006 2:59 pm ((PST)) Jon wrote: > Look at spindle speeds.... yeaaahhhhhh ,but if u confine ur activities to small parts & carbide cutters.......the 275 rpm LOW limit on my M head brdgprt ,drives me crazy more than the 4200 top limit ...i can always machine small stuff at lower rpm , but machining steel for 3-4 in facing cut for instance NECESSITATES carbide ....$$$$$$$$$$...make ur wife park her car outside the garage & get a J head size machine ... best wishes docn8as ------- Re: Mills Posted by: "Jay Greer" redwitch1x~xxearthlink.net Date: Sun Dec 10, 2006 8:27 pm ((PST)) Hi: Being a lathe operator for boat building did not take me into the world of mills. So, what is a J head? By the way, I am in a 90 year old single car garage. No room to expand! Cheers, Jay ------- Re: Mills Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Sun Dec 10, 2006 10:10 pm ((PST)) The original Bridgeport mill came with the "M" head, with B&S #7 or Morse #2 collet most common, but some were made with Bridgeport's proprietary C collet. This had a 6-step belt for speed selection. The later Bridgeport machines had the "J" head, which had back gear much like a lathe, plus either a 4-step pulley (on the 1J) or a vari-speed belt drive (2J). These usually have the R8 collet, a much beefier spindle and quill, 5" of quill travel instead of 4" on the M, power up and down feed with autostop and a 3-speed selector. Jon ------- Re: Mills Posted by: "Joe R" jromasx~xxcolumbus.rr.com Date: Mon Dec 11, 2006 4:01 am ((PST)) Jay: There's a 6x26 milling machine group that you might want to join. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/6x26millingmachines/ Joe Romas ------- Re: Mills Posted by: "Jay Greer" redwitch1x~xxearthlink.net Date: Mon Dec 11, 2006 Thanks Jon, Would that I had room for a Bridgeport! Thanks Joe, I joined. Jay ------- Re: Mills Posted by: "ljchipmaker" ljchipmakerx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:23 am ((PST)) > Can anyone tell me about the mills made under the name Smithy? NO, they are not US made. They are chinese, and I think but am not certain, they offer only one model of a dedicated mill that's not CNC. Being an owner of one of their 3-in-1's, and purchasing it prior to any real machining knowledge, I now regret not waiting until I was better educated before making my purchase. I have also had mixed results when dealing with their tech support and customer service. In this situation I believe the phrase "you get what you pay for" is very applicable. My personal opinion is that you cannot do enough research when considering a machine purchase, as you probably already know. There are many different brands of machines available, with very different quality ranges. The lesson that I have learned is that the quality of the machines are not equal, and that price is not the only real difference. That kind of thinking can provide many hours of dissapointing regret, trust me. My suggestion would be to make a list of the specs you need for your intended machining operations, present and future. Then look at the various machines out there and compare your spec requirements to the available machine specs, and base a large part of your decision on that. If you decide on a bech-top mill or mill/drill my advice would also be to get one with a square column. Larry ------- Re: Mills Posted by: "LouD31M066x~xxaol.com" Date: Tue Dec 12, 2006 9:50 am ((PST)) Consider all bad investments as the tuition you have to pay in the school of life. I too am am a mill drill owner with mixed feelings. Positive was affordable price, robust machine, capable of good size jobs, R8, bench size and weight. Negative aspects are: lack of knee means every change in height means you have to dial everything in again...there are things you can do to improve the machine (I think the mill drills are much the same and subject to similar upgrades). For the $700 I paid for a lightly used bare machine I am not greatly displeased...others may hold different opinions. I used a new Bridgeport in class so I do know what I am missing. Louis ------- Re: Mills Posted by: "ljchipmaker" ljchipmakerx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:57 am ((PST)) I wouldn't be that upset had I only spent the $700 you did. I spent $2400 on a new machine that included a 4-jaw chuck and some other tooling I felt were essential at the time. I have since learned a lot by taking 30 weeks of machining at the local community college, and have worked in the lab at this school as the lab-tech for 5 years now. So my machining skills have improved greatly since I bought the machine. The first thing I learned was the limitations of the machine, and have also learned how to work around most of them. I can easily achieve the accuracy I need for any given job, and have learned to live with the round column issues. I have also made several improvements to the machine to make it more accurate. However, it's still a purchase I have regretted from time to time. Now I know that the same money would have been much better spent on dedicated machines. I will never get the money out of the machine that I have into it, and have accepted the fact that it will always be part of my shop. Besides, there are some jobs that it is perfect for. About six month ago I purchased a 12x36 Atlas/Craftsman with QC gearbox that came with all the accessories (taper attachment, milling attachment, tool post grinder, steady rest, follower rest, 4-jaw chuck, etc.) and a bunch of tooling for $850. I feel much better about that purchase. So now I am looking for a mill. Having used the Bridgeports at the college, I also know what I am missing. So I hope that I will be as fortunate when buying a mill as I was with the Atlas. Because I have no time limit, and have access to the mills at the college, I can wait for the right deal to come along. But I still cannot stress enough to anyone considering a machine purchase to do your homework. I made the mistake of not knowing what I needed. I should have taken the classes before I bought the machine; instead of buying the machine, then taking the classes. Larry ------- Re: O M G another newb! [taigtools] Posted by: "n2562001" jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net Date: Sat Jun 23, 2007 11:00 am ((PDT)) > My budget can float up to $500, say, including essencial tooling. > I can spend more, but I'd rather spend less. I'm so tight I squeak. >I love bang-for-the-buck so long as my functional goals are met. ahz: Your statement above was me when I started out. I purchased the most inexpensive Equipment I could find that of course ended up being poor quality. After some use of this equipment I thought I might be able to do a little custom work to pay for more equipment. Some of my equipment included the 7x10 mini lathe/mini mill as supplied by Enco back in the 80`s when they were first imported. (Yes they have caused grief since the 80`s.) What I found was that what could be done on this type equipment could be done by a billion home shop machinists for little or nothing. Worse than that, I found that my skill development was limited by the limitations of this equipment. Even worse than that, I found that the people willing to accept the work from these machines were even tighter than I was. I could work all afternoon for some schmuck who only wanted to spend $5.00 and wanted everything guaranteed for life. And when you think it can`t get worse they bring a half dozen of their buddies who have even less money. Luckly I realized that the value of equipment like this is a very poor bang for the dollar if you're serious about machining and developing skills. Of course if your equipment is only to be used a couple of times a year then just about anything will work. If you're serious you will also find equipment the size of the Mini`s will not be large enough for large projects, and too large and crude for small projects. Personally I have an Emco Maier 13x 40 Lathe and an Emco Maier F3 floor type mill for large equipment and even find that limiting at times. You will find that Small work not suitable for this equiment will be most efficiently done on Taig/Sherline size equipment. I must admit that I am a perfectionist but in this case it is a blessing. It attracts those who demand accurate quality work and are willing to pay whatever it costs to get it without complaint. As I have said many times my most expensive tools are my cheapest tools. I would suggest whatever you purchase, to purchase the highest quality equipment practical for your situation. This may require an extra part time job or two for extra finances while educating yourself on what to purchase. You will have no way to judge quality until you try the highest quality equipment of the type you wish to purchase. To be Blunt that will not be Chinese Equipment. If you are patient and willing to look there are deals to be had on used equipment. I know someone who just purchased a modern 12" American Standard Lathe in super condition for $1400.00. There are always retired Machinists who are looking to get out of the house that would be willing to help evaluate used equipment if you ask or need help. I have yet to ever hear anyone complain about purchasing quality equipment even if it seemed over-priced. Of course we each have our own standards and must do what is most comfortable and compatible with our situation. Jerry Kieffer ------- Types of milling machines [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Ron" RWhitt1245x~xxaol.com Date: Thu Jul 12, 2007 4:20 pm ((PDT)) Anyone care to discuss the pros and cons of vertical vs. horizontal machines? Thanks Ron W. ------- Re: Types of milling machines Posted by: "bdmailx~xxoptonline.net" Date: Thu Jul 12, 2007 4:43 pm ((PDT)) Hey Ron: Easy! Get a horizontal mill with a vertical head on it like I did! Then you get the best of both worlds! I have a Hardinge TM horizontal mill and a RUSNOK Head on the overarm. Similar to a Bridgeport C head. But people put the more modern Bridgeport heads on too. Especially on larger Horizontal mills. Bernie ------- Re: Types of milling machines Posted by: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Jul 12, 2007 4:45 pm ((PDT)) Horizontal milling machines are used primarily for surface profiling and machinery building. They can mount large cutters with great accuracy, a useful ability in the days before CNC when facing a surface by hand in a vertical machine meant multiple passes with smaller cutters. Slotting and slitting are also easier, since the arbors and overarm supports of a horizontal machine provide the two-point support that an arbor in a vertical mill lacks. They are hard to find nowadays (you won't find a new one in your average machinery catalog) and their descendent, the Horizontal Machining Center, is really a vertical machine with the spindle mounted sideways. Many horizontal milling machines came with a vertical spindle, but this is likely to be missing or abused on an older machine. Vertical milling machines are much more likely to be found in your average shop. The venerable Bridgeport is perhaps the best known, but many other machines have been produced over the years. Vertical machines make up the lion's share of CNC machines in your average job shop, and this configuration is the mainstay of smaller machines such as the Taig and Sherline, the mini-mills, and the mill-drills that are popular with many HSM's. With a vertical spindle, the VM is well suited for drilling, tapping, and plunge and pocket milling operations. I'm sure there are more pros and cons, but this is a start. Michael ------- Re: Types of milling machines Posted by: "Chris" in2steamx~xxwi.rr.com Date: Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:17 pm ((PDT)) Not speaking of CNC machines but reuglar manual machines: Pro: Horz. machines in the past were well suited to muliple operations at once; you could gang a arbor with multiple cutters and for instance side cut and plain mill at once. Often pattern makers and designers took advantage of this. They tend to be more rigid, less prone to deflection and are, once setup, normally always perpendicular and parallel to the work surface. At one point in time the tooling was cheaper, plentiful and easy to sharpen (still is). You could in the case of many acquire a vertical attachment that would allow limited vertical milling. These varied from directly driven off the horz. arbor to independently powered heads like that on a Bridgeport. MOst were built like tanks -- this even included the benchtop models like Burke and Atlas. I think they excel at doing index work like gear cutting and keyways and slots. A majority of these machines were not produced past 1950, some smaller ones into the earlier sixties. When you were using plain and side cutting mills, your overhead work height was limited to from the table to the top of the arbor. These machines tended to be fairly slow -- most only having several thousand rpm top end; they were designed to use large cutters. When doing pocket work on the side, it's hard to see, and hard to get into in some cases. In order to do end mill work, you most often would have to mount to the table -- then mount to a angle block (or the other way) in a case where you would only need to mount to a table top vertically. Arbor spacing (in the case of gang milling) you need to have the exact spacer; if your cutter wears some, you need to shim instead -- making a axis adjustment on a vertical machine. Many of these machines had their own tapers which made tooling a bear if you had several machines like B&S, K&T or Deckel. Verticals: At this point in time vertical machines like Bridgports are cheap and plentiful. They are incredibly flexible when it comes to other than parallel or perpendicular cutting (although some were purely vertical like the K&T Milwaukee). They can perform most every operation that a horz. machine can, save gang milling, although I suppose you could -- given the right setup. They now have a lot of tooling around, and for the most part run one of 4 types of taper (r8,mt,Cat,nmt) altough I am sure there others amongst various collets. Verticals can utilze rotary tables for profiling, and so you can make it a pseudo lathe; also you can use the drill and tapping functions of most of these machines more easily. The verticals tend to run faster for smaller tooling, although there are older ones that were slower. Verticals now have taken the place of what used to be a jig bore, a mill, and a drill press. Verticals are also very hard to tram (where they can be); once you have knocked them out [of alignment] it can take hours to get them back on a worn machine. I personally would never move the head until it's a last resort; always try and move the part to the angle you need. They, when crashed, tend to get knocked out of tram. I personally think that they are more likely to get damaged also as it's hard to crash a horz machine without really trying. Because verticals run faster they tend to wear out heads quicker, but then again you can switch the head out so that might be a plus. The tooling is harder to sharpen, at least in a shop without a toolroom. In comparison for the kind of cut a Horz could take, a Bridgeport of equal size was not as rigid and would chatter. On the same token, the Bridgeport could do it nearly twice as fast at half the cut depth. I worked for a while at the company that made Rusnok mills, and Electro-machno drill presses. They had 3 old machinists full time and they all would run the K&T horz. mills any day of the week over the Bridgeports, but the foreman (he was younger) only ran the Bridgeports. The above statement about twice as fast was true we had the foreman running the same casting on a Bridgeport and a machinist on a K&T; and the foreman and machinist were seconds apart on grabbing the castings and mounting them in the jigs. The foreman was cranking a lot harder and faster then the machinist. The Machinist did 1 more in the 2-hour span that they ran those parts; the foreman had to go yell at someone. chris ------- Re: Types of milling machines Posted by: "Steve" skadsmx~xxpeoplepc.com Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:00 am ((PDT)) For an article on adding a Bridgeport head to a horizontal machine, see: http://www.angelfire.com/sc3/shapeaholic/Rockwellmill.html I may be picking up an old horizontal mill with a large overarm and may do this type of conversion. I have a Pratt & Whitney horizontal mill with a vertical attachment, and it can be a pain to tram, as the centerline of the vertical spindle is offset from the centerline of the horizontal spindle around which it pivots. (see: http://www.lathes.co.uk/prattwhitneymiller/page6.html ) Steve ------- Re: Types of milling machines Posted by: "jmartin957x~xxaol.com" Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:28 am ((PDT)) Chris made a lot of very good points on the pros and cons of horizontal vs. vertical mills. I'd add only a couple of things. While almost all horizontal mills are of the same basic type - fixed spindle running in machine column, with outboard arbor support - there are a number of different vertical types. Some have a head fixed solidly to the machine - no angle adjustments possible. Some allow the head to angle side to side. Some allow it to nod back and forth as well. Then you have the Bridgeport-type, in which the head can angle, nod, extend in and out via the ram, and swing on the column axis. Plus, a quill which can extend via power or hand feed. Obviously, the Bridgeport-type is extremely versatile. Problem is, it's also flexible. You can't take very heavy cuts, and if the head gets out of adjustment (or if you angle it to make some special cut), you will have to spend some time tramming it back in. There are some mills, such as the Van Normans, on which you can swing the single spindle into either horizontal or vertical position (or in-between). Good design. Only shortcoming vs. the Bridgeport-type is that they don't have moveable quills, so you can't drill with them unless you are willing to crank the table up and down. While the Bridgeport wasn't made just for drilling, it's probably the most common thing you'll see people doing on them. I've got an old Heald horizontal mill. It's far more rigid than a Bridgeport of the same size. The spindle is a 40 NMTB, which is much heavier than the R8 or Morse #2 tapers of the smaller Bridgeports. I often use end mills with it, which is a PITA as you have to work on the back side. Speeds are on the low side. Drilling is also inconvenient. But if I have to square up the edge of a big plate, using a face mill or an end mill or a side cutter, it's impossible to beat. At some point, I'll probably add either a vertical milling attachment or a separate Bridgeport- type head. Oh, and just to confuse things, Bridgeport did make a horizontal mill. But you'll rarely come across one. And there are horizontal milling adapters for the Bridgeports, but they add one more piece to a system already not known for its rigidity. John Martin Cumberland, Maine - where it's a perfect summer day ------- Re: ye Ol' Pen maker at Cabin Fever [sherline] Posted by: "Ron Ginger" rongingerx~xxroadrunner.com Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:34 am ((PST)) > However on a slightly more serious note, I will have to disagree > that cheap tools such as the 2X Mini Mill are better than no tools at > all. When beginners purchase this type equipment they limit their > skill development because of the limitations of the equipment. Ok, so what are the choices for a guy that wants a bigger machine than a Sherline? A Bridgeport is nice, reasonably available, but over $2000 and over 2000 pounds. Not something a lot of guys can handle. A used Clausing 8400 series is a nice machine, if you can find one. I have a nice one, it cost me about $600 many years ago, then $500 for scraping the worn ways, and $400 for new lead screws. It's now a fine machine. Ive seen them go for $1800 in good shape. It's just under 1000 pounds, takes 4-6 sq feet of floor space. The Prazi/Wabeco are not bad, made in East Germany. About $3000 for a benchtop machine. What else is there? Can you give a suggestion to a brand name and source of supply for a benchtop mill bigger than a Sherline and smaller than a Bridgeport? > The numbers on the Die you mentioned are a good example. While they > were easily machined freehand on a sherline mill, they simply would > not exist using typical Chinese machines in either manual or CNC. FREEHAND??? come on Jerry, I accept that you are a master machinist, among the very best I have ever met, there is no way I will believe you machined those freehand. On a Gorton pantagraph, sure, but not freehand. Just because I like a challenge, I will bring a small steel disk and a nice single point engraving tool to Cabin Fever. When the machine is running, I will engrave the same numbers on the disk using the mill. I will photograph it and post it here after the show. Anyone that will be at the show is welcome to watch this. Let's assume it will happen Sunday morning, say 10:00. ron ginger ------- Re: ye Ol' Pen maker at Cabin Fever Posted by: "n2562001" jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:24 am ((PST)) Ron: How can you afford not to purchase what you need? I can give many examples of how my Sherline equipment has paid for itself in an after- noon's work. This is not true with my Chinese machine tools. In fact what I have found is that many home shop machinists will do the simple procedures they are capable of for little of nothing. I should clarify by saying I am referring to the import hobby machines sold for under about $1000.00. Bench top machines, even the Chinese machines, in the $2000.00 to $3000.00 are of much higher quality than the under $1000.00 types. If your need or desire is only a basic procedure occasionally, just about anything will do. If you wish to learn and develop consistent quality machining skills you will need quality equipment. If you develop these skills there are many larger machine shops that give you small jobs connected to larger jobs they do not wish to do. Machines can easily pay for themselves in this manner as well as other work if need be. Life is no free lunch. If you have a little ambition and desire, $3000.00 is not out of the reach of the average person. Heck I know people who spend that much in a couple of months in a bar and other activities that will never return a dime. My issue is not with someone buying a cheap poor quality machine if that's what they wish to do. It's with those who tell unknowing people they can do the same things on a $400.00 machines that they can do on quality machines. If truly interested in machining, I strongly suggest people attend one of the smaller machine tool shows and get the feel for quality tools so you have a standard to judge equipment by. Brands and pricing can be sorted out at this type of show. In regard to the numbers on the Die. Not only was it done freehand, I have publicly taught this simple procedure at a number of workshops but mostly Horology related. I think I did screw up when I said they would not exist on typical chinese tools. I should have said thay would not exist AS THEY ARE on typical common hobby tools. While I don't know this, I suspect it could be done on a small $50,000.00 or so industrial Chinese CNC machine. I certainly agree it will be no problem to scratch a number on a disc with a pointed graver. However these numbers were machined using a .010" carbide endmill. The numbers are .058" high x .036" wide x about .005" deep as I remember. This will give you parameters for your demonstration. The freehand procedure is very simple if you or anyone else would like to try it. First if you closely inspect the numbers they are machined in block style. This can be easily seen by looking at the inside portion of the number. In other words for example the sides and top of the "O" were straight lines. When turning a corner the diameter of the endmill is used to determine the measurements. For example if I was doing the upper right hand corner of the "O", I would need to move the endmill .010" to the right while also moving it .010" back toward me or down simutaneously. This produces the rounded corners on all of the numbers. Doing this in one motion by turning both handwheels at the same time is far beyond my skill. (As I suspect you thought I was saying.) However in small steps it is very easy and is done as follows. When I get to a location where I want to turn a corner, I stop and record handwheel settings or zero the wheels. I then nudge each handwheel simultaneously the best I can only .001"-.002" at a time and stop. At this point I check the handwheels and reset if need be so that both have moved the same distance. These two steps are repeated until the endmill has turned the corner and ready to move in another straight line. Because of the small size of the numbers this method works extremely well and any machining defects because of the starts and stops are not visible by the naked eye. While less effective on larger sizes it still works quite well up to a 1/32" endmill. If anyone would like to try a corner start with a 1/32" endmill and nudge the wheels simultaneously about .003"-.005" the best you can. You will be amazed at the results and how well it works even on the first try. When completed any nearly invisible defects can be erased with a Bead- blaster as they were on the Die. The rounded surface corners of the numbers from blasting were removed when the surface of the die was ground. Sorry I won`t get to see the Demo but will be waiting to see the results. Jerry Kieffer [and in a later message:] Ron. By the way I forgot to mention this in my last post. THANK YOU for offering to do a Demo on your opinion that very few offer to do. Win or lose you are the winner by making it fun and productive for all. ------- Taig Milling Table Durability [taigtools] Posted by: "steve794613" steve794613x~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Sun Apr 19, 2009 3:02 pm ((PDT)) Hi: I have just joined but I have been keeping an eye on the posts for a short time. The Leadscrew topic has been very busy and interesting. I am thinking of buying the Taig Mill but I have concerns about the "hard anodised table". I was just wondering how durable and hard the table is when subjected to normal use? I am not currently going the CNC route so I would not buy the extra sub table that people seem to use. Would I need to be extra careful when I attach a steel vice or cast iron rotary table? Am I likely to damage the table? Thanks for your help. regards Steve ------- Re: Taig Milling Table Durability Posted by: "Ken Cline" clinex~xxfrii.com Date: Sun Apr 19, 2009 3:48 pm ((PDT)) As long as you don't throw the vise or rotary table around, the anodized surface should hold up. At least I don't have any marks on my table. I frequently use a 3" toolmaker's vise and 4" rotary table. ------- Re: Taig Milling Table Durability Posted by: "wildhorsesoftware" gfbx~xxmypage.net Date: Sun Apr 19, 2009 4:05 pm ((PDT)) Steve: First thing to remember is that "hard anodizing" is a bit like powder coated paint. It's still just a covering over the underlying material. Provides a bit more abrasion resistance to the finish, but doesn't affect strength at all. A tool will punch through it as if it's not there. That being said, the Taig table is a pretty tough cookie. No need to worry about attaching vices of any other tooling. I generally have a fixture, or at least a sacrificial surface (3/8" aluminum plate) on my table. My table still got a drill hole within the first month I got it. But then so did my Bridgeport clone. Might have something to do with the operator. Bottom line is the Taig is a great machine for the price. Mine is CNC and I run it 6-8 hours a day, cutting aluminum sbout half the time, plastics the rest of the time. The only problem I've ever had is belt alignment. I have the larger motor and the motor mount is a bit weak for its weight. But once I took an hour or so to analyze the problem a do some fine aligning, adding a few shims to get the motor mount exactly level, belts seem to last forever. BTW, order extra belts with the mill. If you don't have extra belts, you will definately have a belt break at 2:00am on Sunday morning when you are working on a project you want finished Sunday afternoon and you won't be able to even order a new belt until Monday, much less get it in hand. If you decide on the Taig (which you should do unless you are willing to spend a LOT more money) get the motor and spindle upgrade, no matter what your application. No matter what you think you are going to use the machine for, you are going to find more uses as time goes by. After only 18 months I'm using the machine for things I never dreamed I would when I bought it. Happy milling and let the "chips" fall where they may. Regards, Gary ------- Re: shop equipment [LittleEngines] Posted by: "KJ" kenn_kitex~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Nov 1, 2009 6:42 am ((PST)) Steve Binnix wrote: > I have been researching shop equipment for several weeks now. Usual constraints, small space, low budget. Even though having been in wood working for many years and understanding the concept of mutiple machines for faster prodcution without new setups....will I be able to build effect projects on something like a Smithy Granite or similar combo mill without too much hassle? < Steve: Having owned and operated a Smithy Granite 1324, I will attest that for the money, size, footprint, overall capability, and quality of the machine, it is for sure a very satisfactory choice. I also researched and looked before going with the 1324. This was a used machine, and had seen a years worth of hard use, but was well worth the price and effort to retrieve and move. Smithy's support is excellent, 2 year warranty, and there is an independant group on yahoo that is a truly impressive: smithy-machinesx~xxyahoogroups.com 3in1 machines definitely serve the purpose for many amateur home shop machinists. They do require setup time to switch from milling to lathe, and vice versa, however, that aside, they do provide the overall required functionality. The primary objection heard on these boards is the set-up time, between function types; well, the old saying "you get what you pay for" comes into play. Purchasing two separate machines would cost more in most cases (new)than what you'll spend for a 3in1. BTW, you may find a used machine amongst the Smithy group, as some of them move upto dedicated machines. Hope this helps. Kenn ------- Re: shop equipment Posted by: "wb2tdg" WB2TDGx~xxaol.com Date: Sun Nov 1, 2009 7:11 am ((PST)) Welcome to the group here. I don't post here that often but would like to give you my thoughts on a larger 3-1. I started about 10 years ago with a Grizzly 9729. I've had a few problems in the first year with a motor issuse and a chuck with over .10 runout. The company sent a new chuck and this one is within .002. As far as the type of work it can be difficult to setup and do milling as far as the height goes. There are ways around it at times. I also own a 7X12, 9X20 and an X2 mill. All have had many problems that had to be addressed. I've built about 30 steam engines on the 9729 from PM research to a full size Pearl engine for my sidewheeler. To sum it all up if I had to only have 1 machine it would be the 3-1 combo. Hope this helps you. Ken ------- Which is Best Benchtop Mill for the Money [DIY-CNC] Posted by: "greghydn" greghydnx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Mar 28, 2010 1:16 pm ((PDT)) Just wondering if anyone has any advice for someone in the market for a small mill! I'm leaning toward the Microlux machine from MicroMark. ------- Re: Which is Best Benchtop Mill for the Money Posted by: "decoder" dec0derx~xxntlworld.com Date: Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:11 pm ((PDT)) Hi, I can recommend the AXMINSTER X1. I have recently bought one and I have just converted it to cnc and it was a very reasonable price. Axminster have a website and are very helpful if you decide to talk to them. The X1 is the smallest, the X2 a bit bigger and the X3 I think is the biggest but they are all benchtop machines. Put axminter X1 into youtube and there are videos of them working. Best Regards Clive (UK) ------- Re: Which is Best Benchtop Mill for the Money Posted by: "Mike Payson" mikex~xxkludgineering.com Date: Mon Mar 29, 2010 6:52 pm ((PDT)) Man, what a can of worms you have opened. You'll probably get almost as many different answers to that question as there are people on this list. :-) The Micromark is definitely a well regarded mill, but just about anyone who owns one (or any other X2 sized mill) will tell you that they wish their mill was bigger (Me for instance). The one that seems to be getting the best reviews lately is the new G0704 from Grizzly: http://www.grizzly.com/products/Drill-Mill-with-Stand/G0704 It is generally regarded as superior to the X3 series mills, as well as being bigger and cheaper. Pretty hard to beat. The Grizzly's have not been around for long, but the same basic mill has been available for a year or so from a variety of suppliers including: Lathemaster http://www.lathemaster.com/Lathemaster%20LM25L%20Milling%20Machine.htm Big Dog Metal Works http://www.bigdogmetalworks.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idpro duct=780&idcategory=16 and Precision Matthews http://www.machinetoolonline.com/PM-MV-BenchMills.html so it has a fairly well established track record as a quality machine. With shipping, the Grizzly comes out to about $400 more than the Micromark, but it is a far more capable machine. ------- Re: Which is Best Benchtop Mill for the Money Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Mon Mar 29, 2010 6:59 pm ((PDT)) Darren Clark wrote: > I'm thinking about picking up a Smithy Granite 1340 Max once my workshop > is finished this summer. It's a 3 in 1, drill press, mill, lathe. > Anybody on the list have any experience with one? We have a 3-in-1 at work, it is actually a pretty HORRIBLE mill. Not so bad as a lathe, but still kind of mediocre. I think the Smithy is better made in several ways, but it still is a very big compromise. Jon ------- Largest X and Y cuts on 2000 [SherlineCNC] Posted by: "Ron Dunn" rondx~xxmicrosoft.com Date: Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:16 pm ((PDT)) I'm in the process of buying a Sherline CNC milling machine, but I can't decide between 5400 and 2000. The deciding factor will be the size of the workpiece I can machine in the X and Y dimensions, but I'm having trouble finding this figure. The quoted X and Y travel don't exactly equate to the cutting dimension, especially once throat depth is taken into account. Would someone with experience of these machines please quote the size of the maximum rectangle that can be cut on each machine? Ron Dunn ------- Re: Largest X and Y cuts on 2000 Posted by: "Tom Wade" tomx~xxwade.name Date: Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:12 am ((PDT)) Don't know if I can answer all of your question. I'm running sort of a bastard 5400. I added the 12" base later. Absolute maximums I don't know. In the X axis, I find that I'm just limiting my parts (for planning purposes) to about 7" or a tad longer. I think the table travel is actually a touch over 8" normally. There is a stop screw under the table which can be removed if you need to get a touch more travel. I wouldn't normally leave this out. According to the published figures, you have 9" of travel, so you should be able to cut around a rectangle about 8.5" long. Actually, a bit more, if you used a smaller diameter cutter. Are you talking about cutting the outside of a rectangle? The limit would be max table travel, minus the diameter of the cutter, minus a bit for sneaking up on a dimension. Yes, the throat depth on any mill can be a limitation. However, there is a spacer block which can be used between the column and the head on the 5400, to gain another inch or so of throat depth. I keep this riser block installed most of the time. The throat depth is about 3.5", so you can probably cut around the outside of a rectangle about 3" wide. Good machining practice is to clamp down a workpiece, then do as many operations as possible without disturbing it. However, if you need to occasionally cut a larger piece, especially in the X axis, you can machine one end of the part, then shift it on the table to do the other end of the part. If you routinely need to cut parts much larger than this, the Sherline might not be the right machine for you. Do you need lots of parts cut from larger sheets of steel? Take a look at Plasmacam. The Plasmacam is fast, but pretty much limited to steel. Need to cut lots of parts out of thicker pieces of other materials? Look at a water jet. A bit slower and more costly to operate, but cuts almost any metal, plus lots of other stuff as well. Water jets are used to cut carpet for automobile installations, as they are fairly fast, and dust free. Hope this helps. Tom Wade ------- Re: Largest X and Y cuts on 2000 Posted by: "imserv1" imservx~xxvectorcam.com Date: Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:13 am ((PDT)) Ron, This is one of those questions that if you have to ask, your underlying premise may be flawed. The Sherline machines are for making "miniature" sized parts. You should not plan to place a "maximum" cube shaped part on the machine. If you need to machine parts that size, you will not be happy (or probably successful) with anything less than a full sized mill, like a Bridgeport. Having said that, you should be aware that there are fixturing tools that can increase the available envelope for a Sherline. 1) The Horizontal Base Plate permits the 5400 to be setup like a Horizontal boring mill. This may affect your decision as a HBM has a clearance in the vertical direction that can allow a much larger cube part to be installed, even though you may not be able to machine it all in one clamping. The 2000 comes with enough knuckles to be setup as a HBM with no alterations. 2) There are riser blocks available for both machines that permit higher Z, and longer Y travel clearances. 3) Extended bases and Tables are available that can increase the travels to 14 inches in X and 11 inches in Y directions. 4) Extended 15" column with 10.25" of vertical travel now available as an option for the 2000 (may be available for the 5400 too). Hope that helps. Fred Smith - IMService http://www.imsrv.com ------- Re: Largest X and Y cuts on 2000 Posted by: "wongsterwish" wongsterwishx~xxyahoo.com.sg Date: Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:29 am ((PDT)) I'm on 18" table (sherline), 15" column (sherline), and the long Y base (don't know the length - from A2ZCNC). Just did a simple job of 200mm long with plenty of space left. Have not measured the max travel of the axes. I find that adding the A2Z's spacer block (or any spacer block extending too far out) makes the column relatively more "whippy". I'm thinking of the 2000's extension arm (can't remember the name of that thing). Wong ------- Re: Largest X and Y cuts on 2000 Posted by: "Philx~xxYahoo" yahoox~xxphilmattison.com Date: Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:48 am ((PDT)) I had an off-the-shelf Sherline 2000 and I found the work envelope in X/Y to be about 7" x 5" (respectively), give or take a little for tool size. I'm assuming you were looking for the simple answer. Phil M. ------- Re: Largest X and Y cuts on 2000 Posted by: "djmorrow2004" morrow2002x~xxlightspeed.ca Date: Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:06 pm ((PDT)) You can add a bit more Y axis capacity by making your own sub-base. The larger your work piece is in the Y direction, the smaller the work envelope can become because it bumps into the column. I found this out cutting clock gears. This is what I did: http://www.ldrider.ca/cnc/sherlinebase/sherlinebase.htm David ------- Re: Largest X and Y cuts on 2000 Posted by: "Mark Thomas" ylistsx~xxco-japan.com Date: Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:34 pm ((PDT)) Ron: If size is the real issue you may want to check out the optional bases offered by A2ZCNC. You can buy the basic parts you need from Sherline and the optional ones from A2Z. Usual disclaimers -- just a satisfied customer of both companies. Cheers, Mark ------- Re: Largest X and Y cuts on 2000 Posted by: "roninbendigo" rondx~xxmicrosoft.com Date: Tue Apr 20, 2010 5:05 pm ((PDT)) Thanks to everybody for their responses. -------