This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------ Here you will find many comparisons of milling machine brands and types, in conversations between folks who have experience and/or strong opinions. Purchase of a milling machine normally involves a fair investment of money and time to get the one that is right for you. Research carefully and be sure it will do what you want and really need. Sometimes a conversation starts out as comparing lathes and broadens to the same maker's milling machine. In the case of makers like Sherline or Taig, that each have both types of machine, there are a lot of accessories that work on either their lathe or their mill. For such companies, it may be worth a quick glance at the "Lathe Comparisons" text file to get a full picture of opinions and experiences about their products. If you got to this file directly from my HOME PAGE, return there by using your browser's back button. BUT if you came to this file as the result of a web search engine, see many additional files on my home page Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html SAFETY WARNING BEWARE: DO NOT ASSUME that any subject matter or procedure or process is safe or correct or appropriate just because it was mentioned in a news/user group or was included in these files or on this site or on any other web site or was published in a magazine or book or video. Working with metals and machinery and chemicals and electrical equipment is inherently dangerous. Wear safety devices and clothing as appropriate. Remove watches, rings, and jewellery -- and secure or remove loose clothing -- before operating any machine. Read, understand and follow the latest operating procedures and safety instructions provided by the manufacturer of your machine or tool or product. If you do not have those most recent official instructions, acquire a copy through the manufacturer before operating or using their product. Where the company no longer exists, use the appropriate news or user group to locate an official copy. Be careful -- original instructions may not meet current safety standards. Updated safety information and operating instructions may also be available through a local club, a local professional in the trade, a local business, or an appropriate government agency. In every case, use your common sense before beginning or taking the next step; and do not proceed if you have any questions or doubts about any procedure, or the safety of any procedure. Follow all laws and codes, and employ certified or licenced professionals as required by those laws or codes. Hazardous tasks beyond your competence or expertise should also be contracted to professionals. Let's be really careful out there. (c) Copyright 2003 - 2015 Machining and Metalworking at Home The form of the collected work in this text file (including editing, additions, and notes) is copyrighted and this file is not to be reproduced by any means, including electronic, without written permission except for strictly personal use. ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 13:43:44 -0000 From: "Fred Mitchell" Subject: Re:Milling Machine I have a Smithy BX-288 mill-drill, tilting gear-head type. For about half the cost of the cheapest knee mill, it does a very good job on work appropriate to 6" lathes. Also, it came with a very complete set of accessories (vise, collets, etc.) But there is one problem, at least with my machine. The friction in the head-tilting axis is very high, plus the fact that once it is tilted the weight of the motor throws the head out of balance and there is no real way to get a grip on the head, so it was impossible to make any accurate angle adjustment. I solved this by fabricating a bracket with a 1 1/4" hex head attached, which I bolted to the side of the head casting. I use a 3/4" drive breaker bar, which I already had, to do the tilting, and final adjustment by tapping the bar with a hammer. With this I can true the head within .002" across 8 inches as measured by d.i. Incidentally, I measured breakout torque on the tilt motion with a torque wrench, and it was 140 ft-lb at the vertical position! This after removing the head and thoroughly lubing all mating surfaces. It's just the huge overhanging weight of the head and motor that causes this, I believe. Other than this, the machine is excellent for the price. It has accurate dials on all three axes, speed changing is a snap (six speeds from 95-2000 rpm) and a nice size table (8 x 28 in). This sucker is heavy! It sat in the back of my truck for a week until I got a stand built for it and I rolled it out on pipe sections right onto the stand. For a 6" Atlas owner this was a new ballgame. Checking the Enco catalog, I see that the "Enco" brand now on sale is made in China, while the "Rong Fu" brand is from Taiwan. My BX-288 was made by the Zibo Automobile Gear Factory, China, so may well be identical to the "Enco" machine. As a rule I much prefer to buy Taiwan rather than Mainland Communist product. I'm sure the main difference between the two machines is the labor cost. When we had an Enco store here in this area I always went there and eyeballed the product before buying. In general Enco stuff has been satisfactory for me, but a mill-drill is a big investment and it would be nice to see before buying. I got the Smithy locally at a "tent sale" they ran a few years ago and might not have wanted to order it sight unseen. ------- Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 21:58:23 -0800 From: "Marcus & Eva" Subject: Re: 5400 or 2000 Mill ? Hi Bruce: I would buy the 5410 mill over the 2010. The 5410 is a much more rigid machine even though it is a bit less versatile than the 2010. I have a full size Bridgeport mill with the same adjustments as the 2010. In 10+ years of use I can recall tilting the head front-to-back maybe 2 times. Even though I can tilt the head on my machine in 2 planes, I almost never do it. I typically tilt the job, either with an angle plate, or by squeezing it on an angle in the vise. First of all, it is a major pain in the rear to realign the head after you're done. Second, you lose your X-Y positioning everytime you crank the table up or down (in the case of the Sherline, it is the head you crank up and down but the principle is the same.) Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 09:44:48 -0500 From: "Kevin P. Martin" Subject: RE: 5400 or 2000 Mill ? I bought a model 2000. The extra setup arrangements can be very useful. On the other hand, because it has less rigidity than the model 2000, and more importantly, there are more setup adjustments that can slip and ruin the job if you accidentally get too much cutting force, I also purchased and retrofitted the model 5400 column base. This involved drilling two holes in the mill base (the column bolts are side-by-side in the 2000, and fore-and-aft in the 5400), and milling away an unused part of the Y ways (they are contoured to wrap around the 2000's round column base neatly, I milled them off square). This was quite the setup; I had the Z axis mounted on the underside of the 5400 base, and clamped the base front-down onto the mill table. This was only possible because I had already turned the 5400 column base into a versatile base; it now looks like a piece of swiss cheese, since it has tapped holes in a grid pattern on several surfaces, giving me a choice of perhaps a dozen setups. I keep meaning to post pictures... Kevin ------- Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 11:47:43 -0500 From: "Marshall Pharoah" Subject: Re: 5400 or 2000 Mill ? >From: "Wm. Dubin" >Reply-To: sherlinex~xxyahoogroups.com >To: sherlinex~xxyahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [sherline] 5400 or 2000 Mill ? >Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 08:11:53 -0800 >I bought the 2000 mill. As my first mill (and milling expierence), >I had no way of knowing if the extra adjustment would ever be needed. >I've used my mill daily for over 2 years now, and have never come on a >situation where I could use this function. That being said, I am still >happy to have it, as one day I "know" I'll desperatly need it, and it >will be there. Lately, I've felt the need for a larger mill, as my work >requires it. I've checked several larger ones, and none offer anything >like the Sherline... just an increase in size (and weight). From reading >other lists, I hear of continual problems with these other mills... >enough to discourage me from putting nearly $2000.00 or more >into a mill prior to purchasing all the new tooling. >I have wondered if setting up the Sherline base unit that allows >conversion to horizontal milling would be an answer to this. >Has anyone on the list used this accessory? Has anyone done horizontal >milling, and if so, can you advise me as to whether or not this would >work for me? Yes, I have the horizontal milling base. I love it. I do have a few things I don't like about it. It does provide a lot of stability. It is a pain to try to hold the base and attach the column, requires three hands. (I'm working on a solution for this). Works very well for horizontal boring. Sherline reccomends that you chop the bottom of the column off. I felt I wanted the extra spzce so I didn't, and so far its been fine. It doesn't really buy you any more travel, it just lets you use it as a horizontal mill. I have an Atlas horizontal mill and am pretty familiar with the capabilities of horizontal mills. >I need extra length and width... so far, the height on the 2000 mill has >been OK. I'd hate to lose height, but if I gained longer and wider "runs" >it might be worth it. What you really want is more XY travel, it sounds to me. You won't really gain that. I think you are looking at a bigger machine. Check out the XY tables sold for drill presses, if you find a decent quality one of the right size, mount it to a metal base and mount the column from your mill to the base also. Marshall ------- Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 21:22:11 -0000 From: toddfx~xxaxom.com Subject: Home built mill? For 3 weeks to a month now I have been doing research on small milling machines. Once I settled on Taig over Sherline, I went back and read all the messages in the taigtools archive. What a great way to mine the collective wisdom of you all! I've been doing some emailing with Nick, and looking through the Enco catalog as well. I have a bunch of 1/2" aluminum tool plate available to me through work. What would be the pitfalls of making your own mill from parts? I'm thinking of taking a piece of tool plate for a base, and bolting on a Palmgren Compound Milling Table (Enco page 122). Then I'd bolt a big cast iron angle plate to the base plate. To the angle plate I'd bolt on another piece of tool plate going vertical. To that attach another smaller table like the Enco Compound Slide Milling & Drilling Table with the long axis running vertical. Maybe remove the cross axis from this table. To the vertical axis attach the Taig milling head. I arrived at this theoretical configuration by starting with the Taig milling machine, which I really like. But, the table isn't as easy to retrofit to CNC (my ultimate goal) or as well built as the Palmgren table. So, I'd replace the Taig table, which meant building up a frame from the angle plate and and tool plate pieces. Then I got a quote on the Taig Y-axis assembly for $150 without the headstock, dovetail mounting plate and motor mount. Well, a small steel table is $50 less than that, and I only need the long axis. That left getting the head assembly from Taig. With the big table at $220, the angle plate at about $100, the small table at $100, the tool plate free and the rest of the Taig stuff at about $150, this gives a total of about $570. I think I'd end up with a tougher machine than the Taig 2019 for about the same cost. Granted, it would take some cobbling together, but that's half the fun, right? Or am I completely off base and missing something critically important? Todd F. ------- Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 21:49:27 -0000 From: wjw2000x~xxhotmail.com Subject: Re: Home built mill? In taigtools: > I have a bunch of 1/2" aluminum tool plate available to me through > work. What would be the pitfalls of making your own mill from parts? > Todd F. Ever hear of the Gingery books on making your own metalworking machines from...scratch? The only pitfall I can warn of is that it will take time. If you have access to the material (I wish I had "a bunch of 1/2" aluminum tool plate"!), I think it's a great idea. If you don't have the Gingery books, perhaps you should get them (Lindsey Publications) before you start. He also tells you how to melt some of that aluminum down and make castings. ------- Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 18:41:00 EDT From: tadici283x~xxcs.com Subject: Re: Re: Home built mill? In a message dated 6/8/2001 2:49:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time, wjw2000x~xxhotmail.com writes: > The only pitfall I can warn of is that it will take time. If you have > access to the material (I wish I had "a bunch of 1/2" aluminum tool > plate"!), I think it's a great idea. If you don't have the Gingery > books, perhaps you should get them (Lindsey Publications) before you > start. He also tells you how to melt some of that aluminum down and > make castings. Remember, no matter what, it takes tools to make tools. I do like making your own tools, and have seen on the web some people who have made their own lathe and they take you one step at a time very interesting using the methods you mentioned, I think that I have read some on Nick's web site, if I remember correctly, (Jose R.) one thing for sure you can control quality (or at least hope that you can). Chris of Bradenton FL ------- Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 23:58:51 -0000 From: dmockx~xxclarion.edu Subject: Re: Home built mill? In taigtools: > Ever hear of the Gingery books on making your own metalworking > machines from...scratch? Also take a look at the Gingery Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gingery_machines Don ------- Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 15:24:39 -0000 From: "Robin S." Subject: Re: Home built mill? In taigtools, toddf wrote: > the rest of the Taig stuff at about $150, this gives a total of about > $570. I think I'd end up with a tougher machine than the Taig 2019 > for about the same cost. Granted, it would take some cobbling > together, but that's half the fun, right? Personally, I'd just go and buy the Taig mill. Machine tools are funny things. When you look at a larger mill, it looks simple until you understand the engineering that has gone into producing it. I'm reasonably sure you could build a very beafy mill, with its structure made from scratch. However, you'd need a mill to do this in the first place. You said you want to build a CNC eventually. CNC machining is VERY different from manual machining. I could never crank the handwheels hard enough to run a manual mill as hard as a CNC mill. Essentially, you want to make a CNC as big and bulky as you can afford. This means (for an amateur) steel weldiments, linear races or box ways (ideally box ways for stability), larger steppers or (better yet) servos, ballscrews and a very beafy spindle motor. The Taig is lacking in pretty much all but the reasonably bulky structure. This is not to say the Taig is incapable of running well as a CNC, but once you've played with a VMC, the Taig looks pretty wimpy. Concerning the structure of the Taig, it's big for its size. Good use of over-sized parts and the use of steel results in a stable machine, ideal for heavy cuts (compaired to the Sherline, for example). The stability of the superstructure of a CNC is very important. You can put very powerful axis and spindle drives on your mill, but if the structure is weak, your cuts will be terrible because of all the vibration. This is where the obsesive use of steel weldiments (or if you have the ability, cast iron) is ideal. Forget about aluminum - a terrible material to make a strong machine tool out of. Although the Taig usues dovetails with adjustable gibs, you'd really want box ways for max stability. To make these, you'd probably have to mill some steel bars, have them stressed relieved and then ground (and you could lap them for really good motion). If you've got deeper pockets (or *sources*) then you could use linear races. These are quite stable (used on HAAS and some Fadal VMC's) and allow for very quick movement. To drive the axes, you'd want either larger steppers or servos. Servos are very expensive compaired to steppers but they offer a number of advantages. Servos can yeild very quick rapid movements (ie up to about 2500IPM on some large CNC's, much quicker on certain machines, but they're unusual). Servos are also close-looped which means that your controller will always know where your axis is. The majority of stepper systems are open-looped which means that if you incure a very heavy load on the stepper (heavy cut, fast rapid movement, etc) you may lose steps and then your system is mucked up. For CNC, you almost have to have ballscrews. Regualr V point screws are almost out of the question, and acme screws aren't much better. The reason for ballscrews is the VERY repeatable backlash (although, the lash will be very small anyway) and the high power transmition of the ball screw compaired to the other mentioned screws. Ballscrews are very expensive compaired to conventional screws though. Again, you're going to have to have deeper pockets or some source of used/surplus parts. Lastly, and probably more important than everything above is the spindle motor. Using a 3/8" 4 flute HSS endmill, I can easily stall the Taig's spindle in aluminum (I've got the 1/5HP motor IIRC). For CNC, this would almost certainly need to be better. Most smaller VMC's are rated for a 15-30HP motor, and it's not uncommon to stall them on really really heavy cuts. Now, all that said, if you just want a small machine that'll do CNC, I'd just buy the Tiag. I like my Taig, and my only complaint is that the spindle motor is too small compared with the bulk of the machine. It's very capable for its size, and it all came in one package, ready to go. If you're willing to build a good CNC machine over the next couple months or years, buy the manual Taig and perhaps an arc welder ;-) Hope this helps, Robin ------- NOTE TO FILE: There are also some comments about the choice of a shaper versus a milling machine in the file "Shaper Comparisons" on my site. Keep an open mind. Both have advantages. In an ideal world you can have both, sometimes at bargain prices. Bigger shapers (because they are heavy and hard to move) sell for less than tabletop ones; typically big shapers will be free, or close to it, or sold for their metal scrap value even if they are in fine working shape. ------ From: "robert B" Date: Thu Aug 2, 2001 7:36 pm Subject: drill mill, or shaper ? If a fellow had a choice between a milldrill, or a shaper, which would be the best bet ? ------- From: doogdoogx~xxh... Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 1:24 am Subject: Re: drill mill, or shaper ? Aloha, I got my mill/drill first and then I got my 7" Atlas shaper. The shaper comes in handy and the tool bits are way cheaper than the end mills. Mahalo, Howard ------- From: PIHPGSx~xxa... Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 11:40 am Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] drill mill, or shaper ? Hi: We have a 9 x 30 inch grizzly mill drill w/2axis dro also a 8x8 metal shaper. Both do similar things, but mill/drill is more versatile and faster. Each is unique for certain jobs. w/ a metal shaper you need to have plenty of spare time and patience. hope this helps chuck ------- From: Ronald Thibault Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 4:44 pm Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] drill mill, or shaper ? 8/2/01 you wrote: >If a fellow had a choice between a milldrill, or a shaper, which >would be the best bet ? The Mill/Drill is more versatile. It can cut pockets, drill and bore holes, in addition to what could be done on either. Ron Thibault North Augusta, SC USA Builder Miinie #2 Captain R/C Combat Ship USS Arizona http://pages.prodigy.net/thibaultr/ ------- From: "pep_3" Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 6:22 pm Subject: taig vs sherline mills what are the advantages of one over the other. ------- From: Tony Jeffree Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 7:44 pm Subject: Re: [taigtools] taig vs sherline mills 1. The Taig mill is better. 2. The taig mill is better. 3. ... Seriously though... Both are useful and capable machines. The Taig philosophy seems to be to do good engineering first, then worry about the cosmetics later (sometimes, much much later). The Sherline philosophy seems to be to pay more attention to the cosmetics. Hence, $ for $, you get a much prettier machine from Sherline, but a significantly more robust machine from Taig. The one edge the Sherline mill has over the Taig mill is the motor/speed controller, which is great. However, you can easily retrofit the Taig mill with a Sherline motor (or a treadmill motor) if variable speed is important to you. Personally, I prefer robust. Regards, Tony ------- From: "Leon Heller" Date: Sat Aug 4, 2001 2:26 am Subject: Re: [taigtools] taig vs sherline mills Another advantage Sherline has is metric options on all their tools. Leon Leon Heller, G1HSM Tel: +44 1327 359058 Email:leon_hellerx~xxh... My web page: http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller ------- From: flneighborsx~xxy... Date: Sat Aug 4, 2001 2:56 am Subject: Re: taig vs sherline mills The ability of the Sherline to easily use 3/8" end mills is a plus for me. The Sherline mill uses a threaded mill holder for this. The Sherline also has a standard M1 taper in the spindle...making it possible to use other people's tooling. The Sherline's lengthy list of accessories is another plus. I've never used a Taig, but I understand that, the biggest collet available is only 3/16". Spindle taper is 13 degrees? What fits that? Forrest ------- From: jtoolman2000x~xxh... Date: Tue Aug 28, 2001 9:27 pm Subject: Re: taig vs sherline mills I have made a my own variable speed Mill utilizing a lot of Taig components such as the Taig Headstock and riser blocks as well as many shop made components. The fact that Sherline uses that very expensive end mill holder ( $30 or so )led me to make the same thing except much better from a less than $3 Taig blank arbor. I have made them for 3/8 and 1/2" shanks as well as for many different tools like slitting blades, grinders and other bits of tooling. So one can simply make one such as mine and duplicate the Sherline's ability to use larger end mills. The arbors are pre threaded to fit the Taig spindle of 3/4-16. The Taig also has a short unthreaded portion at the rear of the spindle which fits perfectly snug in the matching unthreaded portion of any Taig spindle accessory. Since threads alone do not insure axial and lateral alignment, you need to have this little registering portion of the thread to accurately center a chuck or faceplate. Sherline does NOT have this feature. By the way the angle of the spindle bore is not 13 but rather,15 or 30 included which is an accepted taper on the inductry as well as many old so-called jeweler's lathes. Now these also used the so called WW taper as well. I have pics of all my projects on my web site at: http://www.homestead.com/tool20895/jose7x10taig.html Regards Jose ------- From: "Carol & Jerry Jankura" Date: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:56 am Subject: RE: [taigtools] Re: taig vs sherline mills How are your end mill holders "much better" (other than cost, obviously) than the Sherlines? Did you do something different than bore a hole for the shank and an orthogonal hole for the set-screw? I've made the 1/2 inch arbor for my sherline from a Taig blank, and figure that it's the equivalent of the Sherline. ------- From: Brian Fisher Date: Sat Aug 4, 2001 3:07 am Subject: Re: [taigtools] taig vs sherline mills Before I bought my Taig cnc mill, I looked at both the Taig and the Sherline. Having a strong background with a popular cad/cam company I had the fortune to see a lot of different full sized VMC's in action. I also used to run several different VMC's prior to my job with the cad/cam company. I took what I had seen, used, and learned as my bias for my purchase. When I looked at the Sherline, despite it's options over the taig, I thought, what a cute lil toy! :) When I had seen the Taig I thought, wow what a cool lil machine. Read the specs on both machines, ask as many questions from current owners as you can, obtain their machining background, and use your own machining experience as grounds to make a sensible decision. You will be happy with your purchase. I know I was. Brian ------- From: "Carol & Jerry Jankura" Date: Sat Aug 4, 2001 10:11 am Subject: RE: [taigtools] taig vs sherline mills Folks: Some of these comments remind me of the great "Lionel vs. American Flyer" debates that raged on when I was a kid. And, probably with the same vigor, emotion snd results. Fact of the matter is that all of these machines have their own set of limitations. Best advice is to learn those limitations (both the Sherline and Taig groups are good sources for that), decide which manufacturer's limitations are least intrusive to building the projects you have in mind and purchase that manufacturer's tool. As with the toy trains of our youth, you won't go wrong purchasing either unit. Just don't overanalyze your decision to death. Instead, make a choice. It won't be "wrong," whichever tool you choose. Your results will be influenced more by your skills than by which tool you purchase anyway. And, once you have a machine, you can start learning and building your skills. My bias - I chose a Sherline lathe & mill, which is why I primarily lurk on this list. I'm just learning to use them. I'm six months along the way and am having some fun remaking parts. :) I subscribe to this list for the same reasons that I subscribe to the Sherline list - the machines aren't all that different so many of the techniques used on one of them apply to the other. (Of course, dimensions, hole sizes, etc. may be different, but the same ideas apply.) One nice thing about both Sherline and Taig - their spindles are both threaded for 3/4-16 which means that I can use some of Taig's parts on my Sherline and Taig owners may be able to adapt some of Sherlines parts to their machines as well. Taig's screw-on arbor blanks are much cheaper than Sherline's blank arbors (Taig's screw onto the spindle while Sherline's have the Morse Taper, so they're not the same part) and work well for some applications. Jerry ------- From: "Leon Heller" Date: Sat Aug 4, 2001 3:24 am Subject: Re: [taigtools] Re: taig vs sherline mills >tools with something called an Int30 taper or something like that. >It's the same thing, presumably. They aren't very common, though. I've just checked in one of my catalogues. One supplier (Graham Engineering near Birmingham, UK) stocks 30 INT taper mill arbors, and adaptors from 30 INT to 2MT and 3MT. Perhaps I could put one on my Taig? Leon Leon Heller, G1HSM Tel: +44 1327 359058 My web page: http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller ------- From: Stan Stocker Date: Sat Aug 4, 2001 4:33 pm Subject: Re: [taigtools] taig vs sherline mills Jerry: Well said. Both companies make good products, each with strengths and weaknesses. I've often heard comments about the plastic gibs on Sherline, but haven't noticed folks who own Sherline complaining about these causing any problems. Could you post your experiences regarding this? I'm just plain curious, being a tool junkie. Thanks, Stan ------- From: joel_mowersx~xxp... Date: Sat Aug 4, 2001 3:19 pm Subject: Re: taig vs sherline mills My 2 cents. Have had the Taig CNC-ready version for about a month. Love it. I've been using 1/4" & 3/8" 4 flute end mills in aluminum and steel, taking .020" cuts with no problems. Will be making a 1/2" tool holder shortly. Advantages: All the Taig (and a lot of Sherline) stuff works on the mill (it has the same head stock as the Taig lathe). The CNC-ready version comes with what seems like a very high torque motor. Disadvantages: No dividing head, no rotary table available from Taig. But others are available. Also missing, an X-axis drive. Spinning the handle for a long fly cut is tedious. Still and all, it beats the drill-press/file method of milling by a long shot. Joel ------- From: "Carol & Jerry Jankura" Date: Sat Aug 4, 2001 9:27 pm Subject: RE: [taigtools] taig vs sherline mills Stan: I've only had my Sherlines since February, but have had no problems with the gibs. One consideration is that all plastics are not created equal. Some wear quite fast, others are almost as hard as metal. Since Sherline originally used brass for their gibs, I'm sure that they tested them well before changing their production. It's just like ShopSmith - everyone talks about how inconvenient it is to change from one tool to another. Everyone, that is, except those of us who own one. Jerry One of my other tools is a ShopSmith ------- From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Date: Sun Aug 5, 2001 1:14 pm Subject: Re: [taigtools] Re: taig vs sherline mills Most of us just make 3/8" endmill holders from the 1132 blank arbor. The 15 deg. taper is a proprietary Taig taper, and I wish they would make a version that took ER collets... The collets go up to 5/16", but the 1/4" one is the biggest practical one. ------- From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 1:09 pm Subject: Re: [taigtools] Re: taig vs sherline mills Generally my advice is to buy the same mill as lathe: Sherline mill & lathe (MT1, 3/4"-16), taig mill & lathe (15 deg & 3/4"-16) 7x10 lathe and import minimill (MT3). Just so you can keep all tooling for both machines. That said, for making the arbors for a Taig on the 7x10, you want to make a copy of the Taig spindle that you can chuck on the 7x10 and use that to mount Taig blank arbors for machining. See our web pages http://www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 13:14:32 -0500 From: jmark.vanscoterx~xxamd.com Subject: RE: Atlas Through Bore (Was Re: Atlas Price) I owned a Rong Fu Mill drill, considered the best of the import mill- drills (M-D). I sold it to a buddy of mine when I needed some bucks for my house. I planned to later replace it with a geared Mill-Drill from Enco (they seemed to have the best value), but didn't. Two weeks ago, I wandered into the local H-F store. They had just got a shipment of the latest machine tools and had both the belt-drive and the gear-drive M-D's next to each other. Could not believe how much nicer the geared head was than the other model. The table was larger than any belt M-D, the castings looked solid, the footprint was small because the motor was not hanging off the back of it. Checked the speeds, and the range of the 6 speeds was good, with 95 RPM (could be 90, not positive) as the slowest. And, it was not the hideous bright red like the catalog showed (more of a rich burgundy). As for Cons, well all the typical limitations of the M-D's still hold for this model. There is no knee, it has a round column. It is still a Chinese machine tool and it should be treated as such. I would expect to drain the oil in the gear chamber, refill it, run in every gear for about 15-30 minutes, then drain oil, clean and refill. I also expect to replace some of the handles, mount the powerfeed that I have, and install it on the M-D base I have. You also need to buy a decent vice, set of R8 collets, hold-downs, etc. I saw a complete setup at Enco for about $200. Have not brought it home yet, but it is not because I don't want to, it is the perfect complement to my Craftsman Commercial 12x54 cabinet lathe. (I am getting ready to have a new house built, so I am watching my bucks.) If there is any specific question I can answer, I will try. Mark V.S. in Austin, TX ------- Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 16:54:48 -0700 From: "David Goodfellow" Subject: Re: Using 3/8" shank cutters with the Taig mill Hi Jerry: I've had the Taig for only about a week, so any comments I make today may have to be rewritten a month from now. But here goes: I've had the Sherline for about a year and a half. About a year ago I bought a Grizzly Mini-mill to do some stuff too big for the Sherline. But I was still happy enough with the Sherline to put a DRO on it. I found it accurate as long as I took light cuts, but not stiff enough for more aggressive milling. When I decided to go CNC I considered retrofitting the Sherline, but decided to go the Taig route instead, because it appeared to be a stiffer machine. And that has turned out to be so. In fact, with the 12" travel on the 15" bed, I may in the future let my beloved Grizzly go. Space is at a premium in my bedroom shop. I milled my first part today with the Taig. It was a simple one -- a Scotch Yoke type piston rod for a steam engine, connecting two opposing pistons -- made from 1/16" brass flat. I had to make two, because the engine has four cylinders. The two parts are identical, which tells me something about the reliability (repeatability) of the Taig mill. Also I've done some engraving on the Taig, to a depth of .005". The appearance of the text over a 2-1/2" span is identical, telling me that the depth of cut remained constant. I found it easier to get precision work from the Sherline than from the Grizzly -- mainly because the Grizzly's Z-axis fine tuning sucks. But the Taig is easier than the Sherline. This is not due to an inherent superiority, but to its CNC operation. It could very well be that if my Sherline had CNC the two would be equal in this regard. I think the Sherline's variable-speed motor is an advantage over the Taig, but I have not had to deal with a lot of different spindle speeds yet, so I don't know how MUCH of an advantage. The Taig belt runs loose enough so that moving it to another pulley set is easy to do. If this becomes a problem I can always put a variable-speed motor on the Taig. To sum up, the Taig can handle a larger workpiece than the Sherline can, and more aggressive cuts. It's bigger and stiffer. I think its Z-axis column is far superior. The Taig weighs nearly 80 pounds (including steppers, etc.) and the Sherline weighs 35 pounds. I think I'm going to be glad I went for the Taig. Regards, Dave Goodfellow Northridge, CA ------- Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 17:00:45 -0500 From: "Carol & Jerry Jankura" Subject: RE: Newbie Help Tim: Here are some of the reasons that I chose Sherline: 1. If you want, you can convert the lathe into a mill by buying the appropriate columns. Taig does not offer that ability. 2. Sherline offers a larger selection of accessories, many of which can work with their milling machine as well. 3. Sherline uses a leadscrew for the carriage whereas Taig uses a rack. This means that you can purchase a set of back gears from Sherline to allow threading while you cannot with Taig. 4. If you purchase the Sherline 4400 lathe, the bed is longer than the Taig. This may be advantageous in some applications. For instance, you still have a reasonable working space when you use a half-inch chuck and half-inch reamer. The short bed tool would have been difficult in this situation. 5. The sherline headstock has a continuously variable motor and now can be purchased with a pulley set that allows a 10000 rpm spindle. Taig uses mostly an induction motor and set of stepped pulleys. Now - why am I on this list? Well, mostly I lurk because many of the topics that are discussed here are also applicable to the Sherline. And, I'll bet that lots of Taig owners are also on the Sherline list for the same reason. I doubt that the differences between Taig and Sherline are large enough to make learning to use one significantly easier than learning to use the other. I hope that this provides some information to help you in your decision process. In the final result, each tool has its own set of good points and bad points. Sherline was best for me, but it may or may not be right for you, depending on how you choose to use the machine and what features are most important to you. Whichever you choose, you'll not make a bad choice. Jerry Jankura Strongsville, Ohio ------- Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 08:31:06 -0000 From: jimknightonx~xxworldnet.att.net Subject: Re: Entry-level Milling machine Mr. Wells, I am probably persona non grata in answering this question. I am very happy with my Sherline 4400C Lathe with all manner of goodies and with more to come. However, I don't use a Sherline mill. Rather, I have a small Jet Mill Drill. Small is relative, however. This machine uses r-8 collets, and is configured with an asian 6" Anglock vise with a rotary base. Configured as is, it weighs approx 550+ lbs, and it is capable of some serious work. Compared to the lathe, I use the drill/mill easily 75% of the time or more. Cost was an issue, and at the time it set me back approx $1,250 new, plus abt $120 shipping. This was a couple of years ago and prices may have changed. At the time I thought the Sherline to be "too small" for the projects I wanted to tackle. I routinely use end mills considerably larger than the manufacturer recommends, and I probably couldn't do that easily with the Sherline. Other than size,however, I don't think there is anything I can do that can't be done just as easily and precisely on a Sherline. In fact, the Sherline might even be easier to use. I'll defer to people with experience with both. I'm personally not interested in CNC, and that is just as well. I'm not sure I could get there with my present machine. I'm very pleased with my current mixed bag setup. I admit to envying the Horizontal Mill setup, however, and plan to either construct my own machine to recent HSM plans or will buy the Sherline and live with its smaller capacity. I can get appropriate materials for a project like this, but I haven't mastered the art of the scrounge. Current estimates make it look like the Horizontal Mill might actually be cost effective, not factoring in differences in material handling capabilities. Jim Knighton ------- Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 19:18:15 -0000 From: paul_probusx~xxyahoo.com Subject: Re: Entry-level Milling machine (kind of long) Depends on what size work you do. Go to www.grizzlyimports.com and look at their line of milling machines. They have a full line of milling machines from just larger than Sherline sized mills to full size production mills. If you decide the smallest mill is the right one for you, then seriously consider the Sherline. The Grizzly mini mill (and its siblings under different names) is only slightly larger than the Sherline. People who "moved up" from the Sherline to the Grizzly type mini mill complain that the move up was not as dramatic as they had hoped. Also, look beyond price. The Sherline might be more expensive but it is accurate out of the crate. The Grizzly and its siblings have had complaints about required adjustments needed to get the accuracy the Sherline has out of the factory and they need to be torn down, completely cleaned (casting grit and dirt) and lubed. To be fair to those imported mills, some Grizzly's and siblings have been found to be accurate out of the crate, and there are many people who have bought them and are satisfied with their purchases. If you need a mid-size mill (ie. mill/drill), there are no other choices that I am aware of than an imported mill. They are all similar to what are on the Grizzly site, regardless of who you purchase one from. If you need a full-size mill, your choices do open up, a tad. For what you would pay for a brand new import, you can get a beat up Bridgeport or American made clone. Any American made machine tool that still has production life in it will be out of the price range for a HSM and probably scarfed up by a production machine shop. I believe the large mills (with the exception of the horizontal mill) are made in Taiwan. Taiwan's machine tool quality is much improved over what it was many years ago when Grizzly and others started importing their equipment from Taiwan. Therefore, one of the imported full sized mills is, IMHO, a better deal, for a HSM looking for a full sized mill. You may be able to get an American made horizontal mill that is in good shape, the size you need and for a good deal since you are not competing with production machine shops for these machines. Now that I think of it, I want to retract what I said earlier, for the mid-size mill category, you do have another choice to the imported mill/drills. A small American made horizontal mill is another choice. The 7" Atlas/Craftsman would be one to consider. I believe Logan and South Bend may have offered models of similar size as well. Paul ------- Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 16:43:16 -0800 From: Rick Kruger Subject: Re: What Mill to buy? [US $1000 OR LESS] I'm not familiar with the Grizzly G1005, but am with the G8689. Great little machine. I do more work on it than all three of my lathes combined (Atlas 10", SB 9" and Minilathe 7x12). Not as rigid as I'd like, and it does have its limits on size of work, both in table travel and under the spindle. Still, if the size fits your machining needs, its a workhorse. I have done and angle plate bracing to increase rigidity of the column. There is a Yahoo group devoted to the G8689, but its membership is small and traffic light: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GrizHFMinimill/ A much more active, and highly knowledgeable on the minimill and other larger bench top mills, such as the RF30, RF31 (which the G1005 may be, but I don't know it) is the "minilathe group": http://groups.yahoo.com/group/7x10minilathe/ On either/both groups, be sure to give some details of just how big of pieces, what type of milling you expect to do, so they don't have to ask for the info before being able to help you. If I were buying today, knowing what I know now, even tho I really like the MiniMill (G8689), I would be inclined to get an RF30/31 machine, if I had a budget of $1000 >>> for the machine ONLY. Tooling will run you another $500 - $1000 (but don't tell the W-unit that!). But, extending that "if I were buying today" theme. If I were buying today, I'd be inclined to hunt the auctions for a full sized mill in reasonable, which can be had for around $1000, depending on where you are, etc. My problem with that is that it would have to go in my uninsulated, detached, 1 car garage and that is NOT where other machines are. And I don't even live in a "cold" part of the country. Rick K. Portland, OR ------- Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 20:43:28 EST From: LADDERBARx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: What Mill to buy? I own the grizzly 1007. Have had it since 1986. did every thing I wanted it to, fly cut pistons, enlarge valve bowls, put studs in heads and I made a lot of tooling on it also. The only thing I want on it is a knee, which it doesn't come with. I'm looking to upgrade. R-8 is the way to go (i.m.o.). Tools are more available at swaps and such. Be prepared to spend a good bit on tooling, even more than the mill it shelf. Have fun making chips Mike ------- Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 19:58:43 -0600 From: "Randy" Subject: Re: What Mill to buy? Hank: I would start here: mill_drillx~xxyahoogroups.com I did and they helped me with the info I needed. Just before I bought my used (like new) Enco 1100. It has an R8 spindle which I think is the only way to go you don't have to fight the collets out; just loosen the drawbar and out they come. Randy Pedersen Salina, KS Atlas 618 South Bend 9"A South Bend 9"C Enco Mill Drill Model 1100 ------- Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 09:10:04 -0900 From: "Crisenbery Engineering" Subject: RE: what mill to buy My two cents worth, having owned or own a round column mill drill, a square column mill/drill, a Taig mill and a Bridgport clone. Assess the size of the work you are really going to do. Some of the small mill/drills don't have too much more travel than the bench tops, Sherline, Rex and Taig, especially with the optional long table on the Taig that gives 12" of x. These small machines are nowhere near as rigid as large machine but if you are working with models this is probably not a problem as the workpiece is probably going to be a limiting factor on how heavy a cut you can take etc. They are cheap really will do some decent work for a hobby and don't take up much space. If you are doing larger work spend the extra and get a real mill even it is used. The round column mill/drills are a real pain I have seen bandaids added to them like pining the rack so the head won't rotate and therefore sort of maintaining some z alignment. The larger square column mill drill Rong Fu RF45 costs as much as some knee mills so unless you don't have shop space it doesn't make too much sense. One trick to use on any mill or mill/drill with limited z travel to get around this problem when switching between drilling and milling is don't use a drill chuck. Use collets for your milling and drilling and use screw machine length drills, they are shorter than jobber length and in addition to saving space in the vertical or z direction they are more rigid so are less prone to wandering. Save the drill chuch and jobber drills for deep holes or when there is not a z space limitation. Rick C ------- Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 19:17:36 -0000 From: "stevenhkb" Subject: Re: What Mill to buy? You have gotten a lot of good advice. To recap: Know what you are using it for (and remember it will change!); think about tooling cost, its considerable; unless size and weight are major considerations steer clear of mill-drills; don't overlook used machines. Now heres my suggestion, if you have the room and ability to move it, look at some of the larger less well known American made older machines on the market. I have a Van Norman #12, one of the more common of the "universal" mills. A universal is made to operate in horizontal or verticle mode, and generally dosent have a drill quill, ie its not intended for drilling as a regular use. They have a very rigid knee that moves in Z axis, table X & Y movement, a "ram" that carries the cutting head in the Y direction so it can be retracted for use as a horizontal arbor holder with an overarm. They will carry a large cutter and make a lot of chips! Mine is very sturdy, better in that respect than a Bridgeport, they cost used from $400 to $800 depending on tooling, last forever in a home shop, and can do work a mill-drill would never try. A Van Norman #12 was on Ebay a week ago starting at $250, one guy I know bought one off ebay for $355, annother in Florida bought one at an estate sale for $200, I paid $750 for mine. There is a VN#3 in North Carolina (don't know price) which is a Bridgeport on steroids, 3300# of mill with power downfeed on the quill and horizontal option. All these machines are retiring from shops who have converted to CNC and need the space and manpower. They often can be had for a song, there is a VN#22L in New Jersey on Ebay starting at $100 right now. They can get heavy, the VN#12 is about 1800 lbs, the VN#22 is 2800#, the VN#6 is about 1200#. Don't put them in the attic! Tho I have seen pictures of several in basements. Now the downside: Moving is a pain, but you only have to do it once. Collets are not as cheap or available, used ones for the VN#6/12 size run $15 used, $70 new, but you only need a few to suit the end mill sizes. Most came from the factory with 3-phase motors, but the design allows for easy motor changout unlike a B'Port. Or VFD's can be bought which allow for more variable RPM and braking as a bonus. Hole drilling is a pain if you have to doo a lot, I drilled 400 holes, 1/8"dia recently and it can be done. Steve ------- Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 15:35:59 -0500 From: Ken Jenkins Subject: Re: Bigger machines A couple years ago I decided I wanted a mill. I looked at the Taig and it was too small for everything I wanted a mill to be able to do. I bought a Grizzly 1126 Gear Head mill. I love it. It uses R8 tooling, has 6 speeds which are changed without messing around with pulleys, operates in "drill press mode" with the Z axis disengaged from the fine adjust. Also it came with an x-table autofeed. I think I paid around $2300 for it. Since then I have bought a Taig CNC mill also. The two machines fill different needs entirely. I have been very happy with this machine and the service I have received from Grizzly thus far. ------- Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 20:25:44 -0000 From: "David Simmons" Subject: Re: 2000 Mill [sherline group] >>I would like to know if anyone has experience with the Sherline 2000 mill and the more conventional 5400 mill. Is the 2000 mill as rigid as the 5400 mill. Are there any disadvantages in using the 2000 mill. John Walters << Craig Libuse wrote: >John: Unless you know of specific uses for which you will need the additional versatility of the 2000 mill, I ususally recommend that a new machinist start with the 5400. The difference in price is $225, but the 5400 can later be upgraded to the capacity of the 2000 with the addition of the P/N 5650 column upgrade, which costs $250. That means there is only a $25 difference to upgrade later, and in the meantime, the extra $225 can be put toward accessories that will be of more immediate use to you, like a vise, hold-down set, cutters, etc. For example, the 5400A mill package lists for $875, which is the same price as just the 2000 mill with no accessories. For that $225 you get a mill vise, step block hold-down set, 3/8" end mill set (6 double ended cutters), end mill holder, 3-piece mill collet set, 3-pc. center drill set, fly cutter, hex T-wrench, Sherline Shop Guide book. This is of course in addition to the 1/4" drill chuck and headstock spacer block that comes with the 5400 anyway. That said, let me also say that used properly, the 2000 should be just as rigid as the 5400 within the space limits of the 5400. Since the design of the 2000 allows it to be positioned and extended to many more positions than the 5400, you must keep in mind that as you hang it further out to get to special situations, lighter cuts must be taken. Since these are situations that could not have been addressed with the 5400 anyway, this is a reasonable compromise to gain that extra capability. I think most will agree that this is the case on any machine, regardless of size or price. Craig Libuse Sherline Products < I'll second that advice. Even on the larger equipment that I have worked on the rule is: the more axis the more problems. I have not used the Sherline mills, but the same rule should apply. And the fact that you could upgrade later and spend the extra on tooling now is a good idea. Most people end up with more cash in their tooling than in the machine anyway:) Regards, Dave Simmons ------- Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 07:48:43 -0600 From: "Brad Butler" Subject: Re: Greenhorn questions [SHERLINE GROUP] >> I am looking into getting a Sherline mill, I know very little about them except that I want one (size constraints are an issue). My first question is, where is the best place to get one from, both from a price standpoint, and a service standpoint. Second, would I be better off looking into the higher-end model or into the medium-end model with a DRO added. Thanks, Matt Pierce << I ordered the Sherline equipment without any DRO's. I work every day with full size equipment that are all equipped with either CNC or at a minimum high grade DRO's. At first I thought that I would possibly miss not having them. This just hasn't been the case. I could see if you were using the Sherline as a production machine than it would be a factor but on a hobby basis the cost could not be justified for me. The other thing that bugs me is that the Sherline DRO reads off encoders attached to the lead screws and not off glass scales on the mill bed. What this means is that it is reading the position of the lead screw and not the absolute position of the bed. This is the way that almost all commercial DRO's operate. Not a big issue for most but if I am going to fork over the bucks for a DRO I want it as accurate as possible. And for the inevitable comment on cost, yes I realize that commercial DRO's are much more expensive but this is just one opinion. Brad Butler ------- Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 07:57:46 -0400 From: "Carol & Jerry Jankura" Subject: RE: Looking at getting a mill or lathe but want a combo.... >1. Is there a good combo mill/lathe under $750-$1000 Hi, Rich: You can configure Sherline products to be this, although you'll have to order the parts separately. Purchase their lathe (Long bed if you have the space, short bed otherwise) and buy a vertical milling column. You can order directly from Sherline, but they don't discount so as not to cut their retailers out of the picture. Instead, order from one of their dealers. Most discount and have Sherline drop ship the items to you. One nice thing about buying these parts is that you could then order the remaining parts and have a separate mill once your space opens up. Taig is another US manufacturer, but you'd have to purchase both a lathe and mill, as the Taig lathe can't be converted over. >2. If there is, how loud are they? I've never put a sound meter on them, but I don't find the noise objectionable. >3. How messy/smelly can they get? As messy and as smelly as you want. A lot depends on the materials you cut and the lubrication you need. The milling operation will throw a lot of chips, so you'll need to build some kind of enclosure around it. For the most part, it could be a cardboard box, so there's not a lot of expense involved. The lathe will throw strands as you take your cuts. You'll definitely need a shop vac (not necessarily large, but don't count on the Hoover that cleans the rest of the house. I mostly cut aluminum in the basement. I've got to be careful about tracking chips around, but havn't any noticeable smell. >4. How is the UNIMILL or UNITURN (I've already been told to stay away >from the UNIMAT 1) Don't know anything about them. If these are made by Emco, you might want to check whether or not they're currently in production. The unimat SL, DB, and UNI-3 are small machines, capable for hobby projects (not as capable as the Sherline stuff, though), but are no longer made. There's a UNI-4 that's supposedly a Chinese version of the UNI-3 currently made, but it's not really marketed in the States. Uni's have become collector's items, and they're price accordingly. >I know these sound like funny questions but my wife and I >are in a 3 room apt. and we kind of split the one room up. >Half my workbenches / half the bedroom. If youve lived in New York >you should understand. Dave Goodfellow seemed to have a setup similar to this. I don't know if he hangs out on this list anymore or not, but he'd be a good one to ask for advice. Jerry ------- Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 19:40:52 -0400 From: "Jeff Bissonnette" Subject: Taig vs. Sherline CNC milling machine information.... I was wondering if I might ask you guys for some help... There is a very strong possibility that I will come into enough money to realize a dream of mine, and that is to own a CNC milling machine. I presently have a small shop equipped with a manual Sherline lathe and mill and a Taig lathe converted to an X-Y precision drill press... I like my Sherline machines, but the larger size of the Taig machine has my attention. What would some of you guys out there that own the CNC or manual mills feel are the benefits of the Taig mill over the Sherline or vise versa? I intend to use the mill for profile milling brass and nickel silver locomotive frame parts, as well as fixtures for assembling turnouts for model railroading. I plan to use it for many other things as well, but those the first things that come to mind. The usage I plan for it is as a benchtop "production" machine, so durability is also an issue. The important thing here is that the machine can maintain a positional tolerance of about 0.001" or so within an 1" x 2" envelope. The gearboxes I plan to machine use very small pitch gears and require significant precision and repeatability would be nice too. So, I'd appreciate any ideas and suggestions you guys might have are greatly appreciated... At this point I'm open minded about either the Sherline or Taig. I'll weigh all the information I get and go from there. Thanks and Best Regards, Jeff ------- Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 17:35:10 -0700 From: David Goodfellow Subject: Re: Taig vs. Sherline CNC milling machine information.... Hi Jeff: I have the Taig CNC mill with the extended bed. In a nutshell, I love it. At one time I had a Sherline manual mill, and liked that too. (Ok, I'm easily pleased.) They are both precision machines, and will do the job for you provided you stay within their intended uses. I went for the Taig mill because it would allow working on larger pieces. It's heftier in size and weight, and (I believe) allows precision work on larger pieces. I have done repeated work on parts for small steam engines, and have found the parts are interchangeable. I think either machine would hold the 0.001 tolerance you require, but the Taig would allow you to go to larger sizes than the Sherline will. Nick Carter can give you far more knowledgeable advice than I can. He's a Taig dealer, but if he thinks you're better off with a Sherline he'll tell you so. Whichever one you get, I'm pretty sure you'll be happy with it. Regards, Dave Goodfellow Lancaster, CA ------- Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 18:05:25 -0600 From: "Doug Chartier" Subject: RE: Re: Mill/Lathe Combo I haven't kept up with this thread so if I repeat something - apologies up front! I once owned a ShopTask 3n1. I now have a Bridgeport, a 17x42 Cincinnati engine lathe and a Logan 820. Perhaps I can offer some first hand observations. First there is no comparison between quality of old US iron and imported. They aren't even close. Second big difference is that the larger US machines are built for production. The ShopTask is NOT. "Production" is a rather "undefined" term, but bottom line it boils down to is getting more similar parts out in a shorter period of time, and it's more than just horsepower. As an example my Bridgeport is an old J head with a 1 hp 3 phase motor. Before selling the ShopTask the mill motor quit, and I replaced it with a 1 hp single phase. Both machines have very similar spindle speeds. 1 hp equals 1 hp and 200 rpms equals 200 rpms - right? The machines should perform about the same. NOT right. The mill head on the ShopTask is no where near able to take the cuts that the Bridgeport just sails through. There is not enough iron in the backbone of the ShopTask. The lathe part of the ShopTask isn't all that bad, but again, heavy cuts are difficult. In all fairness, my comparison here is not fair. My Cincinnati is 5 hp and weighs about 4,000 lbs. The ShopTask was sold to a man who, like me, was just starting with machine work, but he had a particular reason for the purchase. Very soon after buying it he added the movable mill head and a 3 axis DRO. The mill head now moves up and down and is stabilized at 4 anchor points instead of one. It makes a very big difference. It still isn't what I would consider a "production" machine, but is well past the hobby classifi- cation. For small parts and one-offs it really isn't that bad particularly when you consider the amount of room it takes up and the overall cost. Another word about production. Larger US lathes are designed with some built in human ergonomics. The smaller imports lack many of these. Examples: Production machines have clutches, levers for fast easy operation, drives on every axis, easily oiled moving parts, rapid moving cranks and quality bearings. Things move quickly and easily despite the heavier weights involved. The smaller imports, particularly the 3n1's, have stiffer movement of parts, slower turning cranks, more difficult oiling points and use brass bearings in places where the bigger machines use ball bearings. Setups on the 3n1's are slow too. I have been much happier with my old US iron than I was with my ShopTask, but I was thrilled when I got the ShopTask and made real honest to goodness chips. The ShopTask did pay for itself before it was sold. A few commercial jobs paid back the full cost and then some, but some of those jobs took forever to finish. I was cautioned about combining the mill and the lathe by people who had experience in real machine shops. I figured the space saving, versatility and cost were worth the extra time and inconvenience of setups. My original purchase was with a hobby shop in mind and possibly a few paying jobs from time to time. I soon learned that once word got around that a machine was in the neighborhood, there was all kinds of work to be done. That's when I understood the disadvantage of having a single machine to do multiple jobs. Taking setups apart is almost as much fun as cleaning up chips after a day's work. At least you can leave vises on the table of a big mill. It can be dialed in and setup properly and not moved often. On the ShopTask it has to be set up and dialed in each time you change from a lathe to a mill. NOT fun. Doug in Houston ------- Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 15:01:45 -0600 From: "jwalters" Subject: New Servo Mill Over the last year that I have been in the Taigtools group I have heard many good reports on the stepper motor version of the Taig CNC mill. The machine seems to have no reliability problems and I have never seen a used mill for sale on E-Bay, yes I have looked. My question is how is the new servo motor Taig CNC mill working out. How does the servo mill compare to the stepper mill. In the future I would like to get in line to purchase a Taig CNC mill and would like to make the best choice between value and performance. Thanks John Walters ------- Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 21:17:02 -0000 From: "variousgroups " Subject: Re: Taig mills "oodnadata <"sdimitri...>" wrote: > Does anyone know how the taig mills compare to the sherline models? > From the pictures it seems to be a more robust machine. Sure, Taig is beefier, so is Grizzly, so is Prazi. BUT... how many of us over fifty would want to lift one of those buggers onto a kitchen counter top just to make the occasional part? They weigh anywhere from 2.5 to 8-or-so times as much. The Sherline is a light-weight machine with very useful capabilities, and, as long as one's expectations are modest, a Serline will deliver excellent service. For me it's a question of the possible. If I did have a permanent work room, didn't live in an apartment, then I would buy a Prazi, but, since I don't, I haven't. The Germans (who make Prazi) have a saying worth recalling "Wenn meine Tante Räde hätte wäre sie ein Omnibus (If my aunt had wheels she'd be a bus)". You gotta go with the givens. Mike ------- Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 11:50:58 -0500 From: Ken Grunke Subject: Re: Quality of Sherline products? Scott Meyer wrote: >I am very seriously considering buying a Sherline Mill and lathe When I purchased my mill 4 years ago, I didn't realize that the main castings were made of aluminum until I accidentally plowed into the mill table with an endmill. I was pretty dismayed to find that out, but I could see that the mill was otherwise exceptionally well made and designed, so I was happy with my purchase. It's a hard aluminum alloy, and anodized for wear protection. Because of it's aluminum construction, it's important to keep slide surfaces clean to prevent scoring. Felt wipers would be a good idea, maybe the new models have them but mine didn't. One of the most useful setups I have is mounting the column and headstock on my Compact 8 lathe cross-slide, for index-milling of bolt heads and the like. Ken Grunke http://www.token.crwoodturner.com/shop/ ------- Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 22:38:18 EDT From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Atlas Craftsman Model 101-15500 In a message dated 7/16/2003: > >I am new to this group. I have a friend who wants to sell me his Atlas > >Craftsman Horizontal bench top milling machine. It will need some > >rebuilding, as the power feed mechanism is not functioning. I have used > >vertical mills in the past. Can any users offer any suggestions on the > >advantages / disadvantages of horizontal vs. vertical? horizontals are much superior for gear cutting . verticals were not much used in early 1900's ..........almost all text info is on horizontals ...verticals took over for die work & most trained w/ them certainly would prefer them ......my 800 ? lb. horizontal puts my brdgprt M head to shame for taking a cut .much quieter & ridgid ,course B&S 9 vs B&S7/morse 2...have not run a R8 spindle brdgprt........atlas horizontals are in demand now ,& certainly ,if u dont add a vertical ,u will be holding ur head at a 90 deg. angle a lot ......i would not be w/out either ...sawing out is also much better w/ horizontal ...straddle cuts available ..... i use mine in preference for fluting taps ,reamers & cutters between centers too ....u will want a LARGE angle plate till u get a vertical.... also u will run out of space quickly w/ little atlas ...the vertical has become so omnipresent , one wonders how things were manufactured 1890 thru 1930...brdgprtfirst showed up about 1938 , BUT there were ridgid nonturret types around in 1920 like recent cintis, & maybe shapers picked up some slack...i would still buy an atlas in right circumstances, just to finish the foursome (12x36 , 7B shaper , 6x18) best wishes docn8as ------- Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 19:41:59 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Something I have noticed about this group In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "Michael R. Roesch" wrote: > You know since joining the group (with the intention > as suggested of learning about shapers before getting > one) I have noticed that you guys are WAY more laid > back than members of some of the other groups I haunt. > What is it about shapers? That mesmerizing > forward/reverse motion? The fact that not one of you > can seem to have just one shaper, kind'a like peanuts > I guess you just can't eat a handful. Do shapers have > some secret power that radiates from them? Is it > because shapers are just "cooler" than say mills? > Inquiring minds want to know... Mike Mike-- Some say that shapers are the preferred toys of the "intelligentsia" (whoever the hell those bigots are): shapers are just so far out...and forgotten as having ever existed by most...that they're kool and thus "in". (If I was a Dentist specializing in root canals at a Texas prison hospital, I would have a refurbised shaper purring in the waiting room...to get the con patients rev'ed up for what they expected was coming their way...and soon.) The seemingly boundless varieties that were made by virtually unknown (today) manufacturers, all across the land in small burgs and large alike, and the multitude of mechanical variations amongst them makes them also, from both archaelogical and machine design points of view, intriguing and inveigling mechanical marvels. That they are also capable of doing real machining work, although no longer industrially, gives them an added value. And then there is their relative rareness to consider also: anyone can buy a Bridgeport and anyday--Perfecto's, especially the motorized versions, are literally rarer than hen's teeth, the latter of which I have an almost complete collection of...but, still, no Perfecto. But, then there is the "Quest", the "Hunt", and, as some would say, that is the most pleasureable part of all. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 19:44:16 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Something I have noticed about this group You don't *have* to be crazy to own a shaper, but there does seem to be a strong correlation.... I guess mills provoke a serious demeanour, when you consider that the average mill owner quite likely has more money tied up in one cutter than I do in the toolbits for three shapers. Well, I do myself, the replacement costs of the endmills and slot drills I have would buy a whole shaper. And those little milling cutters sure do like to shatter! (Of course a vertical mill does not compare directly to a shaper.) I think there is something about the action of a shaper, they are just nice to watch. regards John ------- Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 19:34:23 -0800 (PST) From: William E Sharp Subject: Atlas input My name is Bill and I am located in Wilmette, IL. In searching about info on the Atlas milling machine via the web, I learned about this group. I am interested in any input on the Atlas bench top milling machine. I am an auto/motorcycle restoration buff, who spins small bolts and wheel spacers on my South Bend 9" lathe. I would also like to add milling capabilities to my small garage shop. I know I can get a milling attachment for the South Bend, but would like a bench top milling machine. I will most likely be milling small items. A Bridgeport would be nice for milling heads etc, but my garage is too small for a machine that large. I would like to avoid Pacific rim machines if possible. I am wondering what the capabilities of the horizontal Atlas are? Would a Burke or Clausing be a better option, for a bench top mill? I am also a member of the metal shaper group on Yahoo, and some of the members there have advised me to pass on the Atlas. I would greatly appreciate any input from persons who have used or own this machine. Thanks much! Thanks, William E. Sharp ------- Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 22:27:46 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Atlas input I have a similar small machine, and the main problems are workholding and chatter. The slot on the atlas is not often in the right place for use. The trough around the table is also a pain, as there isn't much table left. A Burke #4 (if I remember the numbers) is a workin' machine, with a much beefier overarm and better, wider table. To see it, look for Burke at http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/_2001_retired_files/ Looks good to me, but I have yet to see one for sale. Jerrold ------- Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 19:35:07 -0400 From: "Beachboard" Subject: Horizontal mill I realize it's a little off the subject of this group but I will take any input I can get and the group here seems to have experienced a lot in the area of old machines. I have the chance to get a small table top horizontal mill. I don't know the name. It is flat belt drive, three step pulley, built in indexer and the table moves in all three directions. Everything is there and works including the motor (it's an underdrive unit). Additionally it has a bar with a center that rides above the cutter spindle. You can extend it so that acts as an outboard center for spinning work while a cutter is held on the table below the work piece. Any ideas or thoughts on what this would be worth. Jim ------- Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 19:10:39 EST From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Horizontal mill buy it ...they are sturdy little beasts ...MANY operations work better on horiz...like gear cutting .& hogging ...negative is how much z axis u have w/a bench machine .( u can always mount a larger table on top )...many are a bit tight ........in fact verticals were rare till 1930's ..u can always mount a big angle block /plate on it & play crick in neck vertical w/ it.w/ endmill holders.....condition & tooling paramount ...lots were B&S 9 spindle ..arbors & tooling are pricy ( u can make them ) some were proprietary , usually bad news for tooling ....mine is floor mounted 6x24 ...& puts a brdgprt m head to shame for ridgidity ....u will probably have to make a jackshaft to get speeds to where really usable on steel ....i built a j/shaft, have double diam. drive pulleys to spindle & extra mtr drive pulleys on a sliding mtr shaft for 12 speeds 60 thru 1800 (belt slips little here)....4 in cutter on mild steel & u need qbt 80 rpm.... will send diag. if wished ,if u buy.it....watch for 3 phase mtr. ..that means some switches ,caps ,box, to make a static conv. or pay $100 , or buy another 3 phase for an idler , start it running w/ sw. with start caps, a rope or a single phase motor switched in& then out ..or buy a single phase mtr.........i paid 200 for mine 35 yrs ago (rescraped ) it runs in 2 3/4bronze bush , is dead nuts & any wear is taken up by nut at rear (w/ tapered bush/spindel )...i like that better than buying high grade ball/roller bearings ..X feed is a lever , Y & Z are screws.....am in process of fitting a detachable screw feed for x axis ....fully tooled & in ex cond.maybe $500 to 700 ......avg machine w/ one arbor 200 or so ought to buy it . not much market .....most of these were industrial & were pushed hard for production ....will require reworking to please a picky operator .......only market is home shop..........cant really give a price ..from pay me to take it away to maybe more than $700 for an absolute GEM....but be aware ...younger hsms have no knowledge of how much use these machines give & care even less...if it doesnt say bridgeport.??? i find i use my horiz, & shaper combined abt as much as my ancient m head....( better finish) so if u shell out alot, be prepared to name it & keep it best wishes docn8as ------- Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 00:25:27 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Horizontal mill As the others said, 1) Horizontal mills are hoggin machines, they do a good job of removing plenty of metal precisely. They do what a shaper does, but use a more expensive cutter, and do the removing more precisely, or at least it is easier for me to be precise with one. 2) The overarm is, as mentioned, for holding the cutter on an arbor. Get an older shop text and you will see what they are for and how to use the mill. Arbors should come with the machine, reduce price if no arbors supplied. You will want to find out what taper the spindle has. Morse #3 or one of the B&S is common. Jarno or some other weirdo taper is a negative. 3) Cutters for horizontal mills are more expensive, but are also cheaper used. The deals are out there. I bought about 200lb of them a couple of months ago for $50. So far I have only found maybe 25 out of 130 that are not usable or sharpenable. I have a Lewis, with a 4 x 18 table and an accessory vertical head. I like it a lot. I paid $600, but it was recently scraped-in and runs absolutely perfectly. If you don't get arbors with, you will have to make them. Without knowing what size or maker the machine is, there is no way to set a price. But I would take at least $100 off for no arbors. Having the indexer is cool. Worth the $100 back that was deleted for no arbor. Can you tell us what they ar and where? That would help us suggest a price and maybe one of us wants the other one....... BTW, a very nice variety is a Burke #4. I want one of those.... The Atlas version isn't bad either, esp with power feed, but its lighter duty than the Burke. Jerrold ------- Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 22:41:11 -0000 From: "n3xve" Subject: Re: Sherline 5400 vs Taig mill comparison? In taigtoolsx~xxyahoogroups.com, "jim_stoll" wrote: > I'm new to the group. I'm about to purchase a mill - either CNC out > of the box or for CNC conversion (likely the latter, as I have > limited funds!) Jim, I can appreciate what you are going through - I did the same thing two years ago. I was very close to sending the money to Sherline but changed my mind and bought the Taig. Sherline really puts a lot of effort into fit and finish and their equipment kind of reminds me of jewelry. Taig seems to pay a lot of attention to fit but until you use it it looks kind of clunky in comparison to Sherline. The main reason I switched to Taig was its "beefiness". Look at the slides in X,Y and Z - they are very robust and can take aggressive cuts without undue vibration. All three lead screws have ball bearings, substantial ball handles (which are a pleasure to use) and re-settable micrometer dials. I'll admit that the Sherline laser etched dials look nicer and are easier to read than Taig's (which are natural aluminum with stamped numbering) but Taig's are usable. In my opinion, the one place Sherline beats the Taig is in the motor and controller. Sherline uses a variable speed DC motor/controller combo whereas the Taig uses an single speed AC induction motor. I haven't seen the need for variable speed other than via belt changes but many owners report adding a DC motor to the Taig. Some install a Sherline motor while the majority will use a surplus treadmill motor. Either way, the mod isn't that difficult. This tool surprises me with its capacity. It isn't a Bridgeport but it can handle some fairly large setups. Taig doesn't do as good a job selling as does Sherline. I started out looking at Sherlines adds and their website which are excellent. And then bought Joe Martin's book on Table Top Machining (an excellent book by the way - I would definitely recommend buying it before you decide). These publications had me convinced that Sherline was the way to go then I looked at Nick Carter's website (www.cartertools.com). You owe it to yourself to go to that site and read Everything on it - he does a very good job of selling Taig equipment (I seem to remember that he also has a writeup comparing Taig and Sherline mills). I would also suggest buying the equipment from him if you go the Taig route - he is very helpful and his prices are excellent (I have no affiliation with Nick other than having bought several grand worth of machinery and parts from him). Anyway, pardon my rambling but I hope I have helped you somewhat. Ed Smith ------- Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 13:02:53 -1000 (HST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: Re: Sherline 5400 vs Taig mill comparison? I haven't used the Sherline mill or lathe, but went through a similar decision making process when I got my lathe. I was all set to buy the Sherline as well, but the cost of the tooling finally got me. I wasn't exactly rich then (nor am I now), so I had a hard cap I couldn't exceed. I got more tooling for the money with my Taig, which is the route I went. There's one other thing about the Taig mill and lathe I like, not so much in comparison with Sherline, but just in and of itself: I get the feeling Forrest knows people who buy his tools like to tinker. They're kinda like machine shop Legos. The lathe headstock fits the mill. The lathe chucks fit the mill headstock. You can use the headstock riser blocks from the lathe to extend the throat depth of the mill. It's one big bolt-together beastie. This lets you do some neat stuff that you wouldn't dream of doing on a tool like a Bridgeport. I've stuck two spindles on my mill at once, one going at a slow speed with and end mill, and another going at a higher speed with a small drill. Ungainly? Yes. Kinda cool? You bet. Save me from doing a toolchange? Well, that was the whole point. I also made an adapter plate that let me stick my entire lathe on the mill bed for some seriously oogly jobs. (Talk about ungainly!) I've used the mill itself as a lathe to do a couple of funky jobs. It's neat. I don't think the Lego-ishness of the Taig tools is particular to them. After talking to some Sherline owners, I've seen some of the same things done on those tools as well. The Taig tools just have more T-slots on them to make Lego-izing easier and less permanent. Tom P.S. I second the comments regarding Nick and Nick's site. In addition to years of excellent support and more tips and tricks than I could use in a lifetime, Nick's site is what finally sold me on Taig tools. ------- Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 01:32:46 -0000 From: "richard_lawler" Subject: Re: Sherline 5400 vs Taig mill comparison? I was recently pondering the same question and I decided on the Taig. I am glad I did. The following were among the issue I considered. They are not based on experience, but rather the perspective of a buyer in the same position. I don't think you would go wrong with either. Mostly the Taig is beefier than the Sherline. The Sherline weighs only 35 lbs whereas the Taig weighs 85-105 lbs. depending on the model. The Taig is available with a 12 in travel. Here's a picture of the two machines side by side: http://www.cartertools.com/ntaig26.jpg The Taig comes with almost no documentation. Sherline comes with lots of excellent documentation much of which is applicable to the Taig and is all available on line. Plus I'd recommend Joe Martin of Sherline's Tabletop Machining book. Just about everything in that book applies just as well to the Taig. Taig has a handful of accessories compared to Sherline. But if you are doing CNC you may not need that many accessories. Many Sherline accessories work with the Taig with no modification. The spindle motor of the Taig is said to be inferior to the motor on the Sherline. But a Sherline motor can be mounted on the Taig if you make a plate for it (a simple project if you have a mill!). And http://cnconabudget.com/ is working on an adapter to mount an entire Sherline spindle and motor on the Taig mill if that is what you desire. The Taig spindle doesn't have a standard taper and doesn't have a 3/8" end mill holder available as a standard option. The Taig is actually a bit cheaper than the Sherline. But that money could be applied to a Sherline motor or something. Here's a good web page of a guy who completely documented his new Taig mill and CNC retrofit: http://users.adelphia.net/~wjdupont/my_taig_cnc_mill.htm Richard Lawler ------- Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 21:22:00 -0500 From: "Carol & Jerry Jankura" Subject: RE: Re: Sherline 5400 vs Taig mill comparison? This is also true of the Sherline tools, so I'd call this ONE POINT a draw. >There's one other thing about the Taig mill and lathe I like, not so much >in comparison with Sherline, but just in and of itself: I get the feeling >Forrest knows people who buy his tools like to tinker. They're kinda like >machine shop Legos. The lathe headstock fits the mill. The lathe chucks >fit the mill headstock. You can use the headstock riser blocks from the >lathe to extend the throat depth of the mill. It's one big bolt-together >beastie. As for accessories, I believe that Sherline's array of tooling and accessories exceeds what Taig offers, so I'd rate Sherline over Taig on that point. When all's said and done, I often think of this being much the same as when we kids compared Lionel to American Flyer. For the record, I chose Sherline and feel that it's the best for my needs. However, I can't really fault those who feel the same about Taig equipment. The bottom line is both are well built and each is capable of doing most jobs that the other is. Jerry ------- Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 21:09:23 +0000 From: Clive Foster Subject: Re: Any advice on Mill Selection? > What would you think of a radial mill drill? The Rong Fu mini mill > drill has a swing of 38". There's also one from Top Tech > (http://www.penntoolco.com/catalog/products/4491.cfm) that doesn't > specify a swing, but I gather that it is 40" from it's other > measurements. I doubt I'll have to run this type of job very often, but > it would be a lot nicer for me if I didn't need to rely on a machine > shop for some of the bigger jobs. But if you guys think that a radial > is the wrong way to go then please let me know; I don't want to spend > money on something that won't work very well in the long run. > Thanks, this seems like a great hobby! Dan Dan: I've not actually seen one of these machines as none of the UK tool suppliers seem to bring them in these days. However basically they are a radial arm drill so the main purpose is to drill holes in relatively large work pieces. Milling capability is liable to be a bit limited considering the physical size of the machine. Usual mill/drill objections apply concerning loss of radial registration when going up and down the column so once you have the quill aligned you are limited to its vertical travel. As the radius of action is, usually, much larger than with a conventional mill drill (eg http://www.penntoolco.com/catalog/products/234.cfm) it can be much harder to get back any alignments inadvertently lost. Also it is not clear if there is any provision for accurate screw feed of the cutter head along the arm allowing the head to be moved to apply longer cuts than possible with the table traverse. The X-Y table is very small considering the machine size, you need to check the travel specification carefully, it could be as little as 4" x 8". Difficult to tell from the picture but the table looks on the light side for milling and one does wonder about the feed-screw solidity and accuracy. Overall it looks to be a respectable machine at an OK price but if the conventional Mill/Drill, such as the one I referenced above, is considered 50% Mill, 50% Drill this one is more like 25% Mill/ 75% Drill. Mine is very like the Ru Fong machine in http://www.penntoolco.com/catalog/products/4198.cfm with an inverter driven 3 phase motor for infinitely variable speed control. Much quieter than the usual gears. Main gripe is the usual sloppy feed screws, I'll have to fix it sometime but for now a 3 axis DRO makes the beast perfectly useable. Prolly wait until I ball-screw it for CNC. From what I've seen and heard, the small knee mills such as this on http://www.penntoolco.com/catalog/products/4487.cfm are the pick of the bunch unless you really need to do a lot of drilling. About 90% Mill / 10% Drill, same as a Bridgeport really. As ever its horses for courses and all we HSM types usually end up having to make one machine cover a number of courses. You really need to see and talk to an HSM who actually uses these machines. Might be worth asking the suppliers if they know anyone local who would give you a chat/demo for the price of a few beers. Most enthusiasts just love to talk! Clive ------- Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 11:58:52 -0700 From: "Derek B." Subject: RE: OT: Homier Mill/Drill Question It depends on what you are going to need to use it for. They are considered a kit if you want to do accurate work. As general purpose mill for non accurate things they work ok. I have one laying on the floor in my garage similar to this one. I never use it. I like the Taig it is a better built piece of equipment made in the USA. You say it is not in your budget. Well how about having a piece of metal laying around that you never use except to anchor the floor down :) I never have regretted getting any my mills except that one. My opinion is save up for a Taig. Derek B. WWW.DenverCNC.com ------- Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 14:50:01 -0600 From: "Trick" Subject: Re: OT: Homier Mill/Drill Question I have the Homier 600# version of the Rong-Fu 31. It is Red, not green. I got it at a Homier sale for $499. No shipping, but sales tax. http://www.homier.com/itemdetail.asp?i=03988 Anyway, those like you asked about a lot of people buy. There is a yahoo group just on Homier brand tools. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/homiershoptools Also, the yahoo group mill/drill has a lot of users that have that machine and the HF/Grizzly versions of it. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mill_drill/ The common complaint that I see about them is that the column is thin walled and flexes. The upgrade is to fill it with concrete or get a thicker walled column. Some also fill the base with concrete just to give it more mass. I went to 3 homier sales before I bought the large mill/drill and I was real close to buying this dovetail mini mill. http://www.homier.com/itemdetail.asp?i=03947 It is much more robust than the Taig mill (Comparing my taig lathe headstock to the head on the mini mill that is) Plus it has an R-8 spindle taper. Make sure you sign up to Homier so you get notifications of Homier mobile sales in your area. Sometimes you get deals like I did on my mill. But even if you don't you can pick it up there and save shipping and the wait. Plus you will end up buying all sorts of things you didn't realize you needed till you see them dirt cheap. =~) You have to go the first day of the sale though because the good stuff (mills and lathes) go quick. Ric ------- Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 17:44:38 -0600 From: "Lawrence Hladun" Subject: Re: OT: Homier Mill/Drill Question Concrete shrinks when it sets and therefore will be of little value. Use an expanding grout that is used under structural steel column base plates. It would also much easier to mix and place into any cavity. can be obtained from firms (contractors and material suppliers) catering to large construction projects. ------- Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 19:46:27 -0000 From: "wishbone_aaa" Subject: Re: OT: Homier Mill/Drill Question There's a review written on the Homier mill at: http://www.mini-lathe.com/Mini_mill/Main/mini-mill.htm Don ------- Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 13:43:10 -0000 From: "rrh0001" Subject: Re: Busy Bee machines Kel I purchased one of the Craftex B1977 mill drills a few years ago. Busy Bee's price was far and away the best around here (Toronto area) and the machine did the basic milling jobs quite well. Just two things to note: 1) I purchased a set of R8 end mill holders from them and found that they would not seat properly. The reason appears to have been that the positioning stub in the mill spindle was a hair oversized. I tried filing it down but it's awkward to reach and pretty hard stuff. I eventually threw in the towell, returned the R8 holders to Busy Bee and bought a similar set (at an even lower price believe it or not) from KBC Tools. The holders were both imports but the slot in the KBC holders was slightly wider and would accomodate the enlarged stub on the Craftex mill. 2) When I unpacked the mill/drill I found that the wood used in the packing crate was crawling with insects. They looked like small beetles. Since I live near a hardwood forest I killed those I could see, burned the wood and took special care to clean up the shop floor afterwards. The advent of the Asian long-horned beetle in these parts is a reminder to be careful in disposing of packing crates etc when the product comes from somewhere outside North America. Apart from those two points, and I've purchased lot's of other machines and tooling from them over the years, I've found Busy Bee's products quite satisfactory and their service has been good. Ramsay ------- Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 00:08:05 -0000 From: "Jason Spangle" Subject: Re: Got my 8-direction Sherline mill up for grabs > Why are you selling it favor of the Minitech? I run a model engineering and toy shop. This machine will be put to tool & die work. The main strengths are THK ball screw actuators (sherline uses acme lead screws) and THK linear slides (sherline uses dovetails). I also had the machine custom built, it's nearly twice the capacity of the sherline mills. At its highest setting, (upgraded controller) the resolution is .0000078125 (I'm sure this varies slightly from machine to machine). But to answer your question, I needed an industrial machine for miniature work, and Haas was out of my price range... 10k for the minitech is a drop in the bucket compared to the Haas. The minitech is pretty sweet, they even included some high speed spindles so I could route doll house window frames and model airplane fuselage parts. go to www.minitech.com if you want to check 'em out. Jason ------- Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 01:34:51 -0000 From: "Jason Spangle" Subject: Re: Got my 8-direction Sherline mill up for grabs > 0.0000078125 inch ???? It is 0.0002 mm. > Are you sure that the temperature does not make bigger difference ? > Best regards PavelK Yeah, that is something to think about. I believe the resolution is actually the motion of the stepper motors, I could be wrong. I debated about getting the servo option, but it was nearly a third more (of the total cost of the machine). Another good thing about the steppers, is that they allow manual control of the mill, just like my ol'sherline. So that's the main reason why I'm selling the 2000 model on eBay. I didn't need two mills. isn't that resolution crazy? Jason ------- Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 22:05:34 -0500 From: "Carol & Jerry Jankura" Subject: RE: Re: Got my 8-direction Sherline mill up for grabs Hi, Jason: It'll be interesting to see what your real resolution turns out to be. Besides the temperature coefficients that Pavel mentioned, there's also the inherent motor accuracy. If I remember correctly, stepper motors generally have a plus or minus half step (non accumulating) error. Which means that if your leadscrew is 20 tpi (Sherline's standard) and your stepper motors are base 200 step/rev, there's at least an error of 0.00025 inches due to the mechanics. And, we still haven't factored in any backlash into the equation. It's tempting to take the leadscrew pitch and use microstepping resolution to calculate a theoretical "inches per step," but that calculation is generally nowhere close to what you'll actually get. Jerry ------- Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 01:32:00 -0500 From: "Statman Designs, LLC" Subject: Re: Re: Got my 8-direction Sherline mill up for grabs I just looked at the Minitech site. They are charging $1850 for a Sherline rotary table with a 3-jaw chuck, a 250 oz-in stepper motor and a driver?? Wow, I was going to start selling drugs, but this is where the real profit margin is, ;-). I calculate my 4th axis cost me at full Sherline retail, $300 for the table, $125 for the chuck, $50 for the stepper, and $50 for the 4th axis Xylotex stepper driver, for a total of $525. Of course you have to spend 30 minutes wiring it together. Daniel J. Statman, Statman Designs www.statmandesigns.com dan.statmanx~xxrennlist.com ------- Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 06:51:05 -0000 From: "Jason Spangle" Subject: Re: Got my 8-direction Sherline mill up for grabs Dan, they don't sell you the equipment at that price, when you get a quote from them, it's usually less. All the stuff that was done to my cnc mill, I figured would be at least 13 or 15 grand. By the time everything was said and done, it was somewhere around $9500. I like the company, they are also one of the first (if not THE first) desktop/benchtop manufacturers to offer 5th and 6th axis capabilities. At a price for the small to medium production shop. They don't mess around, even the guy at Flashcut CNC told me to go with Minitech over their gantry machines, after he & I talked about what I wanted to do with it. What I liked about both companies, is that they didn't talk bad about each other, even though they were in competition with each other... that tells me a ton about both companies, it's how business should be conducted. I'll definitely be in line for the 5th axis when it becomes available. Jason ------- Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 09:34:36 -0500 From: "Ron Ginger" Subject: Re: Micro-Mark Lathe and Mill I had a Grizzley micro mill- they are all the same, just a different paint job and some minor changes to things like handles and switches. John is correct that the actual work volume is not much bigger than a Sherline. And the vertical colum is attached with a single BIG nut at the base- I had a hell of a time getting it trammed in- and the slightest grab in cutting and it was all over. It was also an offensive thinkg to hear running- noisy motor and gear noise. I recently got a Prazi mill, considerably bigger and a much better built machine. Of course, its also a lot more money. There are pictures of my Sherline, Grizzley and now the Prazi on my web site http://plsntcov.8m.com ron ginger ------- Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 16:05:52 -0500 From: Charle B Vincent Subject: Re: Mill or shaper?? Vince Ancona wrote: >I know this is a very open-ended question, but here goes. What >is the difference between a mill and a shaper, and which one >is more useful?? A shaper pushes a sharp cutting tool across a piece of work removing a small chip. It essentially replaced a man with a scraper or chisel. A shaper has a mechanism that moves the work left or right a little at a time so that each cut is spaced but parallel to the last. A shaper is relatively easy to set up if not always intuitive and the tools are easy to sharpen, but the speed of metal removal is limited by how it can move the ram carrying the cutting bit back and forth. The milling machine was developed to speed up removal rates. A milling machine uses a rotating cutter. They come in two principle varieties, horizontal and vertical. Horizontal milling machines, which were introduced first, have for the most part gone the way of the shaper in industry, but they can remove metal like nothing else. A big one can have you wading in chips in no time. They work something like a wood working planer. Vertical milling machines work like a woodworking router and is pretty much the standard these days. If I were choosing between a small horizontal milling machine and a shaper, I would go with the shaper, since a shaper will do most of what a horizontal mill will and more at the cost of speed. Tooling is cheaper and easier to sharpen and maintain. It is also pretty easy to make a small vertical milling head to fit a small shaper ( I have helped build a couple in the past). However, if I was choosing between a small vertical mill and a shaper, I would probably go with the vertical mill. It will accomplish most of the jobs found in the home shop and details for its use are more readily available. There are a lot more how to articles and plans published for vertical mill and its accessories. Charles ------- Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 19:28:49 -0000 From: "Jim Knighton" Subject: Re: Jet mill In sherline, "taulpaul69" wrote: > I looked at > the picture of your mill, It looks like a nice mill,I was wondering > if the round column gave any problems when milling sideways? Paul, I've had the Jet mill/drill for abt 5-6 years. There are a lot of folks who don't like the round column, but in fact I've not found it to be a problem. You get used to the idiocyncracies of the tools you use on a regular basis, and may even discover that supposed "shortcomings" or "weaknesses" are not as they seem and in fact may have advantages. Such is the case with the round column. On the downside, whenever you change the height of the head you lose spindle alignment with whatever is underneath it. So you compensate by using shorter tooling and/or figure out how to realign things without too much difficulty. On the upside, the head can be rotated to perform operations that would be tricky otherwise. For instance, the other day I had to flycut a wide piece of aluminum. There wasn't enough "y" axis travel to do this in a single setup with the head in it's normal position. There was intrinsically enough "y" travel, but it was in the wrong place relative to the workpiece clamped in the milling vise. However, by rotating the head abt 45 degrees, I was able to compensate and mill the piece without difficulty. Clearly, you can't do that on a machine with dovetail slides and you have to work out some other accomodation. Sure, I'd like a full size Bridgeport type of machine but even if the $$$ wasn't an issue, I simply don't have room for anything that big. So, of necessity I have to "think small" and then be creative about how I use the machines at my disposal. Regards, Jim ------- Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 01:17:02 -0000 From: "Jim Knighton" Subject: Re: 8-direction vertical mill [sherline group] > My real problem is with the rigidity of the whole machine. All the > accuracy in the world won't do a thing if the mill bends too easily. > I am sure that it is stiff enough for the work it does or it wouldn't > sell. But I would rather have a more rigid machine. I have 2 5400 mills (horizontal and vertical) and 1 2000 mill in my shop. While much is said and written about the "rigidity problem", I have to report that at least in my shop with my machines there isn't much difference between the the 2000 and the 5400 mills in this regard. Both manage quite well and are excellent small machines. Maybe my experience isn't typical, but my 2000 mill is no less competent than the 5400 mills. Of the two models, my favorite is far and away the 2000 mill and its wide range of setup options has proven to be highly useful. Personally, I think the 2000 mill gets an undeserved bad rap regarding rigidity, difficulty with alignment, etc. While all three mills are used regularly in my shop and all have a place, if I had to live with just one it would definately be the 2000. For what it's worth, all three mills are set up with steppers and DRO. I'm still struggling to learn how to use CNC, however, and at present am using the steppers more for power feeds than anything else. Regards, Jim ------- Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 17:35:37 -0800 (PST) From: John Maki Subject: Re: Re: 8-direction vertical mill I also have both a 2000 and a 5400 mill. The 2000 is my CNC mill, and probably gets a little more use than the 5400. Most of my work is in brass rather than steel, so the loading is probably quite light. I also use both mills for machining wood...typically ebony and cocobolo. Results have been excellent with no difference noted between the mills. John Maki ------- Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 23:55:42 -0000 From: "mineralman55" Subject: Re: mill >looking to buy a small mill but can only find chinese mini mills for sale About 1.5 years ago I purchased a Sieg X3 mill from Lathemaster. This is the next size up from the ubiquitous X2 mini mill. It is a true bench top mill, weighs about 300 lbs., has a dovetail column and has been a joy to use. It's rigid, accurate, and the inch dials are precise. If you need pictures, check out the www.tedatum.com. Larry ------- Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 22:46:43 EST From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Digest Number 2128 [was Re: mill] >looking to buy a small mill but can only find chinese mini mills for > sale. Anybody have an opinion on these? I have one of Harbor Fright versions of the mini mill. The first thing on the HF model is that the lead screws are 16 TPI which means there is .625" feed per revolution. Then the idiots marked the dials in .001 which left .0265 over on the last division. But, you can get replacement screw and nuts along with the dials from MicroMark (which I did) (Replacing the screws gives you good chance to clean up the slides and adjust gibs etc.) Of course they are no Bridgeport as I found out, any attempt at down milling (where the tool tends to self feed) is sure to be met with disaster which in my case was a shattered nylon gear in the head. Some have spindles that accept R8 collets and some with other sizes. I got the R-8 as I had some collets in that size already. The drill chuck that is included is doubtful at best. Kind of a gamble buying one of those machines or their little lathe, you might get a good one or one that is kind of a raw kit needing a lot of cleaning up and adjustments. Apparently quality control is not one of the strong suits in Chinese plants. (But getting better I understand) Parts and accessories are stocked by Little Machine Shop if you need any as it is a long slow voyage to China for replacement parts. Unless you run across a used American Iron someplace that is the only game in town. So you might as well go for it. John Meacham in the high desert of California 12 inch Atlas, Minimill, HF bandsaw, rusty file ------- Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 19:53:14 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Need advice on mini mill We need to be a little clearer on the apples and oranges of mills... 1) Bridgeport is the gold standard,but, generally a space, weight, power (3 phase 220) and wear issues may need to be solved...I used a new Bridgeport with digital readout and power feed on long axis in shop class. 2) Mill Drills like a bench drill press on steroids (I own one). You have to realign every time you move the head because of the way they are designed. Should be good used ones out therein decent shape in your price range. Good size working table and lots of power to drive R8 (110 volt single phase). May need some tuning to deliver the goods. 3) Mini Mills are table top machines light enough to move without a crew of riggers and appear able to do smaller lighter work (especially in aluminum and brass). Interestingly these are available in various versions in made in USA as well as the various overseas imports from Prazi to Homier in a large range of prices and quality. There is no substitute for hands on use to answer the which-is-right-for- me question. Before you invest, investigate, is sound advice. In my own situation a six inch Craftsman Atlas and a table top (quality) milling machine would meet all my needs and be easier to set up in basement shop. Found this out by owning 4 lathes and a Mill Drill too heavy to easily move. In Michigan, due to seasonal weather extremes having a protected place to work and to protect machineryin Summer's heat, Winter's cold as well as the damp and rain of Spring and Fall is first priority. I have seen a lot of rusty machinery that once was valuable and useful now worth only a one way trip to junk yard. In my (limited) experience a machine ready to work beats a "project" unless you get a give away price AND are into machine reconditioning/rebuilding. If you want to use the machine NOW look for a machine that is up and running that you can try before you buy whether it be new OR used. Louis imho ------- Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 05:58:16 -0000 From: "formtool1" Subject: Potential Buyer [taigtools group] I have a Taig cnc mill that is 5-6 years old and use it to do second operation work from my screw machines and other types of parts. The materials that have been machined have been any thing from D-2 tool steel to plastics. I have machined 1000's of parts and the machine has never broken down or missed a beat, some of the cycle times are 20 min long and held tolerences of +/- .001. I work within the machine capabilities. I did however replace the motor with a DC motor and a regen controller. I also converted another Taig to a Horizontal machine. For the price and size it is a hell of a good machine. I have been working in machine shops for 50 years and know a good deal when I see one. Jim ------- Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 12:11:01 -0500 From: Ken Jenkins Subject: Re: Disappointments with Taig equipment Just some general comments regarding recent expressions of disappointment with the Taig equipment. Besides the obvious comments like, "You get what you pay for ...If you want more...You'll pay more ...",etc. One of the things that I've noticed about this group over the years is that whenever new people come around looking for information about the Taig gear what they get is a pretty honest run down from the folks here about BOTH the pluses and minuses of the Taig equipment and I haven't noticed much "bashing" of other similar machines (like the Sherline equipment) but fair and balanced comparisons. In my opinion most of the minuses have to with things like capacity/size, speed, power and the like, i.e. .... these are not "design flaws", they are simply the limitations of the machine. The disappointments I've seen come, quite frankly, from buyers not doing their homework before purchase only to find out that they couldn't do "xyz" after the fact. The Taig gear is what it is. With careful setup and planning, with creative fixtures and clever thinking it is remarkable how the operating envelope of these machines has been stretched by various users ... however there is a point at which it can be stretched no more. As for myself, I love the stuff! For the money I don't think you can get better gear in this range. It has made it possible for me (on a rather miserly "fun budget") to do CNC stuff, for example, that would have been out of the question only a few years ago. I suppose if I was trying to make a living from it my attitude might be a bit different ... maybe more critical .... And one of the best accessories you can get for your Taig equipment is still free. Membership in this group. Thanks to Nick for starting the group, and thanks to everyone here for the help, advice and inspiration you have given me over the time of my involvement here. I'm having a great deal of fun! Happy New Year! Ken Jenkins ------- Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:21:41 -0700 From: "Andrew Werby" Subject: Taig CNC - MaxNC Mill Comparison On 23 Jun 2005 "Paul W. Chamberlain" asked for a Taig CNC - MaxNC Mill Comparison: >> Hello, lurker here... It looks like I'll finally have the funds to jump into Desktop CNC. Looking at the two factory websites, and reading messages at both user groups, I think I've settled on a Taig CNC Mill and a MaxNC Lathe. However, I've not seen any of the machines beyond the various photos posted. I would like to see a comparison between the MaxNC 15 CL2 and the Taig MicroMill 2000LE, both with the 4th axis option (with tailstock). I've scanned the web and haven't found a feature by feature comparison, even on the base CNC mills. << [I own both machines, and have a fair amount of experience with them. While these mills are superficially similar, the details of construction reflect different priorities on the part of the respective manufacturers. MaxNC mills are designed to be as inexpensive and easy to manufacture as possible, with features added that sound good to the prospective buyer. Taig mills are made to be as rigid and problem-free in operation as possible, while still coming in within a price range that's affordable for a hobbyist or artisan. But let's compare them feature by feature: The Frame: The MaxNC frame is basically three pieces of aluminum extrusion, which are held together with setscrews and an aluminum brace. The sliding parts are all aluminum on aluminum, which soon galls in use. (The blue anodizing is just decorative, not hard.) To use it, the slide must be loose enough to avoid sticking, which means a sacrifice of rigidity. Users need to back out the set screws on the gibs, then loctite them into place to keep them from vibrating out. The Taig has a vertical column made from a section of square steel tube, a steel horizontal base, a massive aluminum casting to carry the bed and the prismatic steel slides of the Y-axis, and a solid steel box-ways assembly for the Z-axis. All its slides are steel with tapered brass gibs. The Leadscrews: MaxNC uses 1/4" diameter acme screws; the Taig uses 1/2" diameter screws. MaxNC screws often bend in use (or abuse); I've never seen that happen to a Taig, even when crashed. The Nuts: MaxNC uses anti-backlash (springloaded) "supernuts"; the Taig uses bronze nuts which adjust for wear with a setscrew. Consequently, the MaxNC can claim zero backlash, while the Taig will have .003" or so of backlash (this is the distance between the engagement point of the nut and screw when changing directions). However, the "supernuts" are only going to take up 10 lbs of total counterforce (cutting forces, slide friction, and screw friction) before giving back the backlash to the extent of the spring's compression. Additionally, the plastic bodies of the supernuts tend to crumble in use, possibly because of the thread- locking compound they're glued in with. Users should count on replacing them rather frequently. The Screw Mounts: The MaxNC uses a solid coupler to fix the turned-down (but not flatted) screw ends directly to the stepper motor. Since the bearings in the motor are made to float, this means that end-play is considerable, and unconstrained. Also, any inaccuracy in the screw alignment is transmitted to the motor shaft, which has to take all thrust and axial loads. The Taig has a solidly-mounted bearing block to hold the screws at the motor end, and adjusts end-play to zero with a plastic- lined nut. The motion is transmitted with a system of two facing disks connected with nylon tube sections fit in mating holes, which eliminates damage caused by shaft misalignment. The Motor Mounts: The MaxNC attaches the motors to the extrusions directly, using two of the four lugs on the motor castings. Taig provides 3-piece aluminum mount assemblies which accomodate their coupling arrangement and allow the motors to be finely adjusted in and out. These do extend the footprint of the mill by several inches, though. The Spindle Motor: MaxNC uses Dayton Universal 1/5 hp motors with bushings, not ball bearings, that go at 10,000 rpm. These are mounted on aluminum posts and tend to vibrate a lot until they ultimately burn out (or up). I've found that it was better to get these motors replaced at Grainger's, since they warranty them for a year, during which they had to replace them several times (MaxNC wanted to charge for replacing them each time). Taig uses a massive 1/4 hp Frankin motor, which goes slower but lasts much longer. The MaxNC system does allow the motor speed to be controlled by software, and has a relay to stop the spindle at the end of a program; Taig requires one to set the speed with the pulley cluster, and to turn off the spindle manually. However, the Taig system will multiply torque at the slower settings, which is good for cutting hard materials; the electronic speed control only yields the original torque of the motor, if that. The Control System: MaxNC has developed a closed loop stepper system that is the best feature of their machines, when it works. Instead of losing steps and ruining a part because it has lost track of its position, the system will fault out with a "servo error" if it encounters too much counterforce. It works by using encoders on the stepper motors, and it does get much better performance out of them than its standard open-loop system (up to 50 ipm versus 12 ipm for the MaxNC OL). Unfortunately, this system often develops problems which cause it to fault out at inconvenient times, or constantly. This can be caused by grounding issues, quality-control issues, by interference due to brush wear in the spindle motor, or by other things that nobody can track down. Taig uses a less sophisticated half-stepping chopper drive system, which is reliable up to about 30 ipm (once it's dialed in), but will tend to lose steps if pushed much faster. The MaxNC CL system is proprietary software which only runs in DOS, although I've heard that Mach3 can be used instead to run it under Windows (except I haven't heard from anybody who has actually got this to work yet). The Taig system will also run in DOS, and comes with its own software (MPS2003) to do that. In addition, it can run under 3rd party step/direction software like TurboCNC or Mach2/3. The Warranty: MaxNC will take back a mill within 15 days of purchase, and charge a 10% restock fee. The warranty for defects in parts and workmanship is only for 90 days. They have a 1-year warranty on defective parts only - faulty workmanship isn't covered after 90 days. Transportation costs and their "crating fee" are extra. Taig has a 14-day free refund policy, and a 2 year warranty on parts and workmanship. The Spindle: The Taig and the MaxNC use the same spindle assembly (made by Taig). The Rotary table: The Taig and Max NC use the same rotary table (made by Sherline). The Tailstock: Neither manufacturer offers a tailstock, athough the Sherline tailstock can be adapted for either machine.] >> Short of that, I would be interested in a pro and con list for each model that would cover the same details. I'm posting this on both user group sites. So, hopefully I can glean the info I'm after from both groups. Not a "mine is better than yours" discussion, but a technical comparison, much like reviews/comparisons done in other trade magazines.<< [Let me know if there are any features you're interested in that I missed.] >> My intended use is for small parts within the capacity of these machines, primarily for model engines. I want to get past the typical look of barstock designs with more of a Victorian look... without buying castings or waiting until I build that backyard foundry. ;-) The materials I have in mind would be: aluminum, brass, cast iron and mild steel. << [The MaxNC can handle soft materials, up to aluminum or maybe brass. It's best at wax or plastics, where its extra speed will come in handy. For cast iron and steel, you're better off with a Taig, which has the rigidity and low-speed spindle torque you'll need for these hard materials.] >> I want these yesterday, so I'm not inclined to go the DIY route. Plus, I'd rather have a single vendor to deal with for future parts and service on the same machine. My years dealing with computer vendors taught me how the cross blame game works. ;-) I'm one of those Jack of All Trades - Master of None types. I have over 25 years in electronics and computers. Have been a diesel mechanic, machinist, welder and fabricator. My last job was running various size FADAL Workcenters, including setup and program changes. Even hand programmed and ran a Bridgeport tape mill back 25 years ago. So, I feel I can get past many of the start up woes I have read on the groups. << [Don't expect any desktop machine to take the sort of cuts you can do on a Bridgeport. And it won't have the convenience of a Fadal VMC with a toolchanger. But on small jobs, particularly with small cutters, it can do real work quite effectively. With all your experience, it sounds like you've got a leg up on most of us.] >> I already have several manual machines, including a few Asian makes... two mini lathes and both a mini and micro mill. My American lathes are a Sheldon 10" and a Sherline with most of the attachments... along with a few American Watchmaker lathes. A SuperMax 9"x49" VarSpeed knee mill is standing by for those jobs too large for the mini's. I also have just about all the workholding and cutter stuff I'll ever need... at least until the next catalog shows up. << [Spoken like a true tool-junkie...] >> I'm a new lurker here, but I've been a member of many machinist related groups for some time... I'm member 24 out of 5098 on the 7x10minilathe group (I joined 2 months after Jose Rodriguez). Thanks in advance for any help in making my final decision on the two mills. Paul, Central OR << [Sure, Paul, let us know what you think when you've actually got one or another of them.] Andrew Werby www.computersculpture.com ------- Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 06:07:02 -1000 (HST) From: benedict-listx~xxhawaii.rr.com Subject: Re: Critique of Taig CNC lathe [taigtools] I'm catching up on mail these days, so bear with me if your questions have been answered in depth already. But here's my $0.02: On Thu, 29 Dec 2005, madpeman wrote: > I'm seriously considering buying a Taig CNC lathe with the 4th Axis > option. I need it to do some very limited prototype numbers > in plastic (small, .5 inch dia and 4 inches or list) I'm guessing you mean the CNC mill since Taig doesn't make a CNC lathe that I know of. (Not that it matters too much since the CNC mill can be used as a CNC lathe without a tailstock.) Mine has done a good job on practically every plastic I've thrown at it. Do use some sort of cooling system for plastic machining, though, since chips have a huge tendency to weld and gob. The last time I did ABS I used a small air jet off my compressor. The last times I did Delrin and nylon I just cranked up the flood cooling and things went fine. I think either one would work well for plastics, but flood cooling kept the chips in the pan. I've run a 1/4" end mill just shy of 1/2" deep in nylon without slowing the mill down. I don't think you'd have any problems with .5" dia plastic parts. > I also want to use it to make some custom motercycle parts out of > Aluminum or Steel (small stuff, like knobs, in an envelope of > 4 by 12 by 5. 12" might be pushing it unless you get the long table version of the mill. Aluminum works well, but the mill can be a little slow if you're primarily cutting steel parts, especially in the several-inches x several-inches size range. I've done some fairly hefty aluminum parts for work with no problem. > I'm an engineer, familiar with milling and turning and 3D cad, need > to learn machine tool path creation process, but probably have an > avialable help if neccessary. I have a mill and lathe for roughing > stuff out or finishing items. Good deal. Having manual machines on the side is always a bonus. > Can anyone give me a critique of what they think of the machine, the > quality, and overall satisfaction. Overall highly satisfied. > With the 4th axis, is it possible to make something with a distorted > circle as an outside perimeter (an ellipse for example). I think the > rotary option only allows 180 deg of rotation, so this would need > rechucking to do this?. Or can it take a piece and work on it around > 360 degrees (not neccessary lathe type rotation) The 4th axis is a full 360+ rotary stage. How it's driven depends on the software you use. I use TurboCNC, which handles continuous rotation just fine. Mach software will also do this with no problem. Past that it's up to how you generate toolpaths. Doing your elliptical profile shouldn't be a problem with the rotary stage. The real trick will be the software you use to generate the tool- path, or how much time you're willing to spend cranking out a toolpath by hand. Odd though that last bit may sound for doing something like an ellipse, you'd be amazed what's possible with a spreadsheet. I mostly use Rhino3D, IntelliCAD, and Vector CAD/CAM these days, but for mathematical functions the spreadsheet route isn't a bad one to go. > Are there any options I ought to consider getting for it other than the > 4th axis table and the extended table? Those are the biggies for the mill. Consider looking at spindle motor replacements unless you can get the mill with a 1/4 HP motor (which I think you can these days.) Mine came with a 1/10 HP, which was under powered for what the mill is capable of. I replaced it with a 1HP variable speed DC motor and have been pleased as punch with the change. > Anything else I ought to consider? However much you spend on the mill, expect to spend about half that on tooling (vises, end mills, indicators, calipers, etc. all cost, unfortunately.) Also expect to spend half that or more on software. I was a little appalled to see what high end CAD/CAM software can cost ($10k for MasterCAM last time I looked.) Shop around. Find what works for your application. Software that will do 4-axis code natively typically puts you in a bracket around $500 and up. But consider running the 4-axis system by moving only three axes at a time, leaving the Y axis fixed with the cutter centered over the rotary axis. Except for parts with hideously complex surfaces (like turbine blades) most of the stuff you'd cut on a rotary axis can be done in this configuration. There's tons of information on the web about parts that were made using this kind of setup. > I have a very basic Roland DGA machine good for plastic and wax in 3d, > but pretty small. It will not even come close to what I want to do? I > am thinking of ditching this when I get this. The Taig is a much heavier duty machine. > Any info would be a big help. I feel like a bit of a cad for asking this (no pun intended) since I live out in the boondocks and probably can't do this myself, but where are you located? If there's someone nearby who's got a Taig mill, they may be interested in demonstrating it for you. (And if you happen to live near me, I won't feel like so much of a cad, and I'd happily show you my setup!) Tom ------- NOTE TO FILE: Following is another Sherline versus Taig mill comparison, that took place on the taigtools group. Lots of folks there own, or have owned, both machines. Same on the Sherline group. And both machines are supplemented or replaced by larger mills for larger work. As always, evaluate the debate for your particular needs. Both have some advantages over the other. And both can do most of the same stuff. Neither is a bad choice for work within its size limitations. The debate in taigtools was mainly well argued without emotion. The original questioner posted the same question to the Sherline group and you can find their comments there. Many of the same people are on both groups, which would never happen if one brand were really a lot better than the other. ------- Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 13:06:52 -0800 From: Monte Milanuk Subject: Sherline vs. Taig... Hello, I'm looking at getting into some basic bench-top machining at some point in the near future. Both the Taig and Sherline mill/lathe systems seem to offer what I'm looking for... and both seem to have options for adding DRO or CNC at some later date. Can someone w/ experience with both systems explain the pros and cons of each (as you see it; I realize opinions are highly subjective)? Perhaps discuss why you bought one vs. the other as well? I'm posting this to both the taigtools and sherline lists on groups.yahoo.com in order to try to hear from both sides on the matter. Thanks Monte ------- Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 17:28:08 -0800 (PST) From: juan gelt Subject: Re: Sherline vs. Taig... thanks for another chance to vent! as owner of both, i assure you it's NOT subjective at all: sherline vs taig LEAD SCREWS 1/4 20 1/2 20 z axis 24 ct crap steel boxed way and 3" steel column Oh man... I don't even need to go on. Taig is twice the machine a sherline is. And taig has serious engineers paying attention to what makes a machine spit out good parts. Sherline puts the money into laser engraved, powder coated toy. Sherlne is good for anything soft. A 1/4 drill bit in aluminum will merely buckle the z. Sherline is a very pretty toy. Taig is a very nice desktop mill. If you wanna buy my old sherline real cheap to judge for yourself, lemme know!!! After all this time i'm still pissed off i got it. ------- Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 03:15:55 -0000 From: "buffaloman97405" Subject: Re: Sherline vs. Taig... >> sherlne is good for anything soft. a 1/4 drill bit in aluminum will merely buckle the z. sherline is a very pretty toy... << A little bit of melodrama wouldn't you say? I am absolutely sure the Taig is a first rate machine nowadays although when they first came out I understand they had problems with welds snapping. After experiencing the frustration my friends were having with their early Taig mills, I went back to Sherline. The only complaint I have with the Sherline is its capacity. It is a smaller machine than the Taig. To extend the capacity of my Sherline I added a 1/2" chuck to mine and also added a column riser and extended the headstock out two inches. I also machined out larger mill holders and can use, and have used, 5/8" mills. I mill bronze, brass and aluminum most of the time but also do steel with no problems. Many of the drilling problems stem from not using the proper drill or mill for the type of metal being worked. I drill 1/2" holes in steel and brass on a regular basis with no problem. I used a Sherline lathe, Taig lathe and Sherline mill to build my first bronze steam engine. They all performed equally well. I think now you will find the Taig mill very good. I wouldn't hesitate buying one if I needed one and could afford it. I am not up on CNC other than what I read here and on Sherline CNC sites but I think Taig is more main line. And as I said before it has a larger capacity. If you check the files and photos of this forum you will see that a lot of Taig people do not find Sherline all that profane. A lot of Taig owners of Taig lathes and mills are using Sherline parts to hybrid their Taigs. I use Sherline chucks and collet sets on my Taig lathe. I am thinking of using the Sherline motor and speed control on my Taig lathe too. ------- Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 19:38:47 -0800 (PST) From: juan gelt Subject: Re: Re: Sherline vs. Taig... :) melodrama, passion, mechanical lust... it's like i married my mills or something... so yah. sherline speed controlled motor roxxors. sherline spindle is good, too. their backlash adjustment is easy to get at. their delrin gibs aren't the 2 oz brass slugs of a taig...once powder coating fails on the sherline ways or carriage, the friction is incredible. put a sherline motor on a taig mill and you've got a super desktop beastie! ------- Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 06:57:32 -0000 From: "buffaloman97405" Subject: Re: Sherline vs. Taig... > their backlash adjustment is easy to get at. > their delrin gibs aren't the 2 oz brass slugs of a > taig...once powder coating fails on the sherline ways > or carriage, the friction is incredible. Boy you sure got a bad Sherline. I used to sell them and never had one come back on me. I ran a commercial model shop using Sherline mill as the main mill. The first one had brass ways. Sold that one after ten years and bought a steel way model. I am still using that same mill after nearly 15 years. I upgraded the motor and hand wheels but everything else is still original. I must have run thousands of projects on both the mill and the lathe. Never had the anodizing wear off. I always clean and lube them thoroughly after using them. I treat my Taig the same way. I think my lathes and mill will outlive me. I taught model making class for a week each June in Maine. I had three Sherlines for 12 students. I retired in 2004 after fifteen years. Those lathes are still in use each year. We also had Taigs with similar results. The only problems we ever had was missuse, like running the carriage into the chuck, leaving the tommy bars in the chuck and starting up the lathe and stupid stuff like that. ------- Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 17:44:41 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: Sherline vs. Taig... Jaun: Your argument may carry more weight if it didn`t come from such a narrow perspective. Likewise I think you would have a hard time demonstrating one or the other is of little value. I also think most people who have worked on these machines would agree that construction quality of each is about the same and far better than the Asian Imports. Each machine has its strong points and weak points as well as design differences. It is up to the purchaser to match the machine to the work that they wish to do. Just because one is better suited for one type of work than the other has no bearing on the value of the other. I have used both Taig and Sherline machines for at least 15 years. I have owned a Taig mill and have worked on and modified several others. Under your logic I could make the same comments about the Taig Mill. Most of my customer work is on the smaller side one-off special unavailable items requiring high precision. Some examples would be parts for High-end collectable watches, very small Reverse flow nozzles for Medical Catheters, and parts of many sizes for Medical, Optical and other instruments. I do this work because these customers pay many times what I could get from work done on my larger machines. I do not use a Taig Mill for this work because of the following reasons. First a Variable speed motor is a must for this work. Second the oversize heavy ways and leadscrews lack sensitivity and feel when using small tooling. Third the Sherline offers more versatile setup options including tool holding options for the tools I wish to use. Fourth the Taig spindle lacks an effective preload nut (including the new design) for the type of stable micro machining that I wish to do. This is of coarse no concern for the type of work these machines are designed to do. For these reasons I could also say the Taig was of little value but it would not be true. If most of my work was at the upper limit of both machines I would definitely prefer the Taig Mill. However in that case a larger mill would probably be more efficient if you have the space for it. Also I would be more than happy to purchase your Sherline Mill cheap. Feel free to contact me off list. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 21:58:10 -0600 From: "Ken Ferrell" Subject: Taig or Sherline Mill I just replaced the motor on my Taig 2019-cr that has been converted to CNC, in a little over a year, I put over 5000 hours of run time on it, Granted 90% of my cutting is in wax or plastic but still its 5000 hours of spindle rotation and there has been some brass and several fairly large aluminum molds done and a few things in mild steel, basically I say that my Taig is an incredible small machine, and one hellauva workhorse. That said I'm planning on buying a Sherline 2000 mill. I love my Taig and it's made me some money but it does lack some geometric configurations that are only attainable by converting my Taig to 5 or 6 axis. (Yes it can be done, just win the lottery first!! ) The addition of the extra axis configurations on the Sherline 2000 will give me nearly the same articulation of a good knee mill except the table isn't controlled by the Z axis with a stationary quill. But this articulation does come at a cost, that being it doesn't have the rigidity of the Taig's steel box column. But that same lack of strength holds true even for the big 46 inch Bridgeports and Lagun knee mills we have at school. My Tool and Die instructor makes us tram a mill or at least sweep the table if we crash any thing bigger than a 1/8th end mill, and lo and behold most of the time they are out by a thou. Or more. So imagine what happens WHEN (NOT IF BUT WHEN) you crash a tabletop machine. Even a sturdy Taig I know because I've done it and YUP time to drag out the DTI and sweep the table and realign my column. Bottom line they both have a place just which do you need, and how much do you want to spend, are you going CNC or manual operation. For CNC I would definitely recommend TAIG with aftermarket driver and steppers, less expensive and better than either factory system. Peace Y'all Ken Ferrell ------- Mills [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Jay Greer" redwitch1x~xxearthlink.net Date: Sun Dec 10, 2006 8:40 am ((PST)) Ok guys: The time has come for me to invest in a mill. I have used my Atlas milling attachment for various light projects over the years. But now I am involved in work that will require an accurate dedicated mill. I am limited as to space and so cannot accommodate a floor mounted knee mill, I would love to have space for a Bridgeport! But, I will have to confine myself to a bench top mill. Sherline machines are too light for the medical tooling I work in. So, I am looking at the small mill known as the Rusnok. It seems to be a quality machine with a 1/3hp motor. It is five speed belt driven and has an XY axis of only 6x4 1/2". On the other hand, the German made Prazzi II Apollo at about the same price offers 10.24x5.5" travel and has a 1hp DC motor that offers infinite speeds. Then there is the Smithy that costs less but offers more options as well as a bigger table travel and costs less. My dilema is that I don't really know how good any of these machines are? I would appreciate hearing some comments if any of you are familiar with these machines. Best Regards, Jay Greer ------- Re: Mills Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Sun Dec 10, 2006 1:43 pm ((PST)) Look at spindle speeds. The higher the better. Some of these small mills have a top speed of 2000-2500 RPM. For small tooling (1/4" and smaller) you really need a LOT more RPM. 25,000 would be nice, but even 5000 - 10,000 would be a great improvement. You might look at the Taig CNC-ready machine. It has a different spindle drive system than the standard Taig which allows higher spindle speed. Jon ------- Re: Mills Posted by: "Jay Greer" redwitch1x~xxearthlink.net Date: Sun Dec 10, 2006 3:06 pm ((PST)) Hi Jon: Thanks for the input. The Taig, like the Sherline, looks too light for my needs. There is another mill, the Wabeco, that is similar to the Prazi. It has infinitely variable speeds from 180 to 3,000rpm and weighs in at 290 lbs, and offers CNC as well. I will keep my eyes and ears open before deciding. Cheers, Jay ------- Re: Mills Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" Date: Sun Dec 10, 2006 2:59 pm ((PST)) Jon wrote: > Look at spindle speeds.... yeaaahhhhhh ,but if u confine ur activities to small parts & carbide cutters.......the 275 rpm LOW limit on my M head brdgprt ,drives me crazy more than the 4200 top limit ...i can always machine small stuff at lower rpm , but machining steel for 3-4 in facing cut for instance NECESSITATES carbide ....$$$$$$$$$$...make ur wife park her car outside the garage & get a J head size machine ... best wishes docn8as ------- Re: Mills Posted by: "Jay Greer" redwitch1x~xxearthlink.net Date: Sun Dec 10, 2006 8:27 pm ((PST)) Hi: Being a lathe operator for boat building did not take me into the world of mills. So, what is a J head? By the way, I am in a 90 year old single car garage. No room to expand! Cheers, Jay ------- Re: Mills Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Sun Dec 10, 2006 10:10 pm ((PST)) The original Bridgeport mill came with the "M" head, with B&S #7 or Morse #2 collet most common, but some were made with Bridgeport's proprietary C collet. This had a 6-step belt for speed selection. The later Bridgeport machines had the "J" head, which had back gear much like a lathe, plus either a 4-step pulley (on the 1J) or a vari-speed belt drive (2J). These usually have the R8 collet, a much beefier spindle and quill, 5" of quill travel instead of 4" on the M, power up and down feed with autostop and a 3-speed selector. Jon ------- Re: Mills Posted by: "Joe R" jromasx~xxcolumbus.rr.com Date: Mon Dec 11, 2006 4:01 am ((PST)) Jay: There's a 6x26 milling machine group that you might want to join. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/6x26millingmachines/ Joe Romas ------- Re: Mills Posted by: "Jay Greer" redwitch1x~xxearthlink.net Date: Mon Dec 11, 2006 Thanks Jon, Would that I had room for a Bridgeport! Thanks Joe, I joined. Jay ------- Re: Mills Posted by: "ljchipmaker" ljchipmakerx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:23 am ((PST)) > Can anyone tell me about the mills made under the name Smithy? NO, they are not US made. They are chinese, and I think but am not certain, they offer only one model of a dedicated mill that's not CNC. Being an owner of one of their 3-in-1's, and purchasing it prior to any real machining knowledge, I now regret not waiting until I was better educated before making my purchase. I have also had mixed results when dealing with their tech support and customer service. In this situation I believe the phrase "you get what you pay for" is very applicable. My personal opinion is that you cannot do enough research when considering a machine purchase, as you probably already know. There are many different brands of machines available, with very different quality ranges. The lesson that I have learned is that the quality of the machines are not equal, and that price is not the only real difference. That kind of thinking can provide many hours of dissapointing regret, trust me. My suggestion would be to make a list of the specs you need for your intended machining operations, present and future. Then look at the various machines out there and compare your spec requirements to the available machine specs, and base a large part of your decision on that. If you decide on a bech-top mill or mill/drill my advice would also be to get one with a square column. Larry ------- Re: Mills Posted by: "LouD31M066x~xxaol.com" Date: Tue Dec 12, 2006 9:50 am ((PST)) Consider all bad investments as the tuition you have to pay in the school of life. I too am am a mill drill owner with mixed feelings. Positive was affordable price, robust machine, capable of good size jobs, R8, bench size and weight. Negative aspects are: lack of knee means every change in height means you have to dial everything in again...there are things you can do to improve the machine (I think the mill drills are much the same and subject to similar upgrades). For the $700 I paid for a lightly used bare machine I am not greatly displeased...others may hold different opinions. I used a new Bridgeport in class so I do know what I am missing. Louis ------- Re: Mills Posted by: "ljchipmaker" ljchipmakerx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:57 am ((PST)) I wouldn't be that upset had I only spent the $700 you did. I spent $2400 on a new machine that included a 4-jaw chuck and some other tooling I felt were essential at the time. I have since learned a lot by taking 30 weeks of machining at the local community college, and have worked in the lab at this school as the lab-tech for 5 years now. So my machining skills have improved greatly since I bought the machine. The first thing I learned was the limitations of the machine, and have also learned how to work around most of them. I can easily achieve the accuracy I need for any given job, and have learned to live with the round column issues. I have also made several improvements to the machine to make it more accurate. However, it's still a purchase I have regretted from time to time. Now I know that the same money would have been much better spent on dedicated machines. I will never get the money out of the machine that I have into it, and have accepted the fact that it will always be part of my shop. Besides, there are some jobs that it is perfect for. About six month ago I purchased a 12x36 Atlas/Craftsman with QC gearbox that came with all the accessories (taper attachment, milling attachment, tool post grinder, steady rest, follower rest, 4-jaw chuck, etc.) and a bunch of tooling for $850. I feel much better about that purchase. So now I am looking for a mill. Having used the Bridgeports at the college, I also know what I am missing. So I hope that I will be as fortunate when buying a mill as I was with the Atlas. Because I have no time limit, and have access to the mills at the college, I can wait for the right deal to come along. But I still cannot stress enough to anyone considering a machine purchase to do your homework. I made the mistake of not knowing what I needed. I should have taken the classes before I bought the machine; instead of buying the machine, then taking the classes. Larry ------- Re: O M G another newb! [taigtools] Posted by: "n2562001" jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net Date: Sat Jun 23, 2007 11:00 am ((PDT)) > My budget can float up to $500, say, including essencial tooling. > I can spend more, but I'd rather spend less. I'm so tight I squeak. >I love bang-for-the-buck so long as my functional goals are met. ahz: Your statement above was me when I started out. I purchased the most inexpensive Equipment I could find that of course ended up being poor quality. After some use of this equipment I thought I might be able to do a little custom work to pay for more equipment. Some of my equipment included the 7x10 mini lathe/mini mill as supplied by Enco back in the 80`s when they were first imported. (Yes they have caused grief since the 80`s.) What I found was that what could be done on this type equipment could be done by a billion home shop machinists for little or nothing. Worse than that, I found that my skill development was limited by the limitations of this equipment. Even worse than that, I found that the people willing to accept the work from these machines were even tighter than I was. I could work all afternoon for some schmuck who only wanted to spend $5.00 and wanted everything guaranteed for life. And when you think it can`t get worse they bring a half dozen of their buddies who have even less money. Luckly I realized that the value of equipment like this is a very poor bang for the dollar if you're serious about machining and developing skills. Of course if your equipment is only to be used a couple of times a year then just about anything will work. If you're serious you will also find equipment the size of the Mini`s will not be large enough for large projects, and too large and crude for small projects. Personally I have an Emco Maier 13x 40 Lathe and an Emco Maier F3 floor type mill for large equipment and even find that limiting at times. You will find that Small work not suitable for this equiment will be most efficiently done on Taig/Sherline size equipment. I must admit that I am a perfectionist but in this case it is a blessing. It attracts those who demand accurate quality work and are willing to pay whatever it costs to get it without complaint. As I have said many times my most expensive tools are my cheapest tools. I would suggest whatever you purchase, to purchase the highest quality equipment practical for your situation. This may require an extra part time job or two for extra finances while educating yourself on what to purchase. You will have no way to judge quality until you try the highest quality equipment of the type you wish to purchase. To be Blunt that will not be Chinese Equipment. If you are patient and willing to look there are deals to be had on used equipment. I know someone who just purchased a modern 12" American Standard Lathe in super condition for $1400.00. There are always retired Machinists who are looking to get out of the house that would be willing to help evaluate used equipment if you ask or need help. I have yet to ever hear anyone complain about purchasing quality equipment even if it seemed over-priced. Of course we each have our own standards and must do what is most comfortable and compatible with our situation. Jerry Kieffer ------- Types of milling machines [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Ron" RWhitt1245x~xxaol.com Date: Thu Jul 12, 2007 4:20 pm ((PDT)) Anyone care to discuss the pros and cons of vertical vs. horizontal machines? Thanks Ron W. ------- Re: Types of milling machines Posted by: "bdmailx~xxoptonline.net" Date: Thu Jul 12, 2007 4:43 pm ((PDT)) Hey Ron: Easy! Get a horizontal mill with a vertical head on it like I did! Then you get the best of both worlds! I have a Hardinge TM horizontal mill and a RUSNOK Head on the overarm. Similar to a Bridgeport C head. But people put the more modern Bridgeport heads on too. Especially on larger Horizontal mills. Bernie ------- Re: Types of milling machines Posted by: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Jul 12, 2007 4:45 pm ((PDT)) Horizontal milling machines are used primarily for surface profiling and machinery building. They can mount large cutters with great accuracy, a useful ability in the days before CNC when facing a surface by hand in a vertical machine meant multiple passes with smaller cutters. Slotting and slitting are also easier, since the arbors and overarm supports of a horizontal machine provide the two-point support that an arbor in a vertical mill lacks. They are hard to find nowadays (you won't find a new one in your average machinery catalog) and their descendent, the Horizontal Machining Center, is really a vertical machine with the spindle mounted sideways. Many horizontal milling machines came with a vertical spindle, but this is likely to be missing or abused on an older machine. Vertical milling machines are much more likely to be found in your average shop. The venerable Bridgeport is perhaps the best known, but many other machines have been produced over the years. Vertical machines make up the lion's share of CNC machines in your average job shop, and this configuration is the mainstay of smaller machines such as the Taig and Sherline, the mini-mills, and the mill-drills that are popular with many HSM's. With a vertical spindle, the VM is well suited for drilling, tapping, and plunge and pocket milling operations. I'm sure there are more pros and cons, but this is a start. Michael ------- Re: Types of milling machines Posted by: "Chris" in2steamx~xxwi.rr.com Date: Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:17 pm ((PDT)) Not speaking of CNC machines but reuglar manual machines: Pro: Horz. machines in the past were well suited to muliple operations at once; you could gang a arbor with multiple cutters and for instance side cut and plain mill at once. Often pattern makers and designers took advantage of this. They tend to be more rigid, less prone to deflection and are, once setup, normally always perpendicular and parallel to the work surface. At one point in time the tooling was cheaper, plentiful and easy to sharpen (still is). You could in the case of many acquire a vertical attachment that would allow limited vertical milling. These varied from directly driven off the horz. arbor to independently powered heads like that on a Bridgeport. MOst were built like tanks -- this even included the benchtop models like Burke and Atlas. I think they excel at doing index work like gear cutting and keyways and slots. A majority of these machines were not produced past 1950, some smaller ones into the earlier sixties. When you were using plain and side cutting mills, your overhead work height was limited to from the table to the top of the arbor. These machines tended to be fairly slow -- most only having several thousand rpm top end; they were designed to use large cutters. When doing pocket work on the side, it's hard to see, and hard to get into in some cases. In order to do end mill work, you most often would have to mount to the table -- then mount to a angle block (or the other way) in a case where you would only need to mount to a table top vertically. Arbor spacing (in the case of gang milling) you need to have the exact spacer; if your cutter wears some, you need to shim instead -- making a axis adjustment on a vertical machine. Many of these machines had their own tapers which made tooling a bear if you had several machines like B&S, K&T or Deckel. Verticals: At this point in time vertical machines like Bridgports are cheap and plentiful. They are incredibly flexible when it comes to other than parallel or perpendicular cutting (although some were purely vertical like the K&T Milwaukee). They can perform most every operation that a horz. machine can, save gang milling, although I suppose you could -- given the right setup. They now have a lot of tooling around, and for the most part run one of 4 types of taper (r8,mt,Cat,nmt) altough I am sure there others amongst various collets. Verticals can utilze rotary tables for profiling, and so you can make it a pseudo lathe; also you can use the drill and tapping functions of most of these machines more easily. The verticals tend to run faster for smaller tooling, although there are older ones that were slower. Verticals now have taken the place of what used to be a jig bore, a mill, and a drill press. Verticals are also very hard to tram (where they can be); once you have knocked them out [of alignment] it can take hours to get them back on a worn machine. I personally would never move the head until it's a last resort; always try and move the part to the angle you need. They, when crashed, tend to get knocked out of tram. I personally think that they are more likely to get damaged also as it's hard to crash a horz machine without really trying. Because verticals run faster they tend to wear out heads quicker, but then again you can switch the head out so that might be a plus. The tooling is harder to sharpen, at least in a shop without a toolroom. In comparison for the kind of cut a Horz could take, a Bridgeport of equal size was not as rigid and would chatter. On the same token, the Bridgeport could do it nearly twice as fast at half the cut depth. I worked for a while at the company that made Rusnok mills, and Electro-machno drill presses. They had 3 old machinists full time and they all would run the K&T horz. mills any day of the week over the Bridgeports, but the foreman (he was younger) only ran the Bridgeports. The above statement about twice as fast was true we had the foreman running the same casting on a Bridgeport and a machinist on a K&T; and the foreman and machinist were seconds apart on grabbing the castings and mounting them in the jigs. The foreman was cranking a lot harder and faster then the machinist. The Machinist did 1 more in the 2-hour span that they ran those parts; the foreman had to go yell at someone. chris ------- Re: Types of milling machines Posted by: "Steve" skadsmx~xxpeoplepc.com Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:00 am ((PDT)) For an article on adding a Bridgeport head to a horizontal machine, see: http://www.angelfire.com/sc3/shapeaholic/Rockwellmill.html I may be picking up an old horizontal mill with a large overarm and may do this type of conversion. I have a Pratt & Whitney horizontal mill with a vertical attachment, and it can be a pain to tram, as the centerline of the vertical spindle is offset from the centerline of the horizontal spindle around which it pivots. (see: http://www.lathes.co.uk/prattwhitneymiller/page6.html ) Steve ------- Re: Types of milling machines Posted by: "jmartin957x~xxaol.com" Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:28 am ((PDT)) Chris made a lot of very good points on the pros and cons of horizontal vs. vertical mills. I'd add only a couple of things. While almost all horizontal mills are of the same basic type - fixed spindle running in machine column, with outboard arbor support - there are a number of different vertical types. Some have a head fixed solidly to the machine - no angle adjustments possible. Some allow the head to angle side to side. Some allow it to nod back and forth as well. Then you have the Bridgeport-type, in which the head can angle, nod, extend in and out via the ram, and swing on the column axis. Plus, a quill which can extend via power or hand feed. Obviously, the Bridgeport-type is extremely versatile. Problem is, it's also flexible. You can't take very heavy cuts, and if the head gets out of adjustment (or if you angle it to make some special cut), you will have to spend some time tramming it back in. There are some mills, such as the Van Normans, on which you can swing the single spindle into either horizontal or vertical position (or in-between). Good design. Only shortcoming vs. the Bridgeport-type is that they don't have moveable quills, so you can't drill with them unless you are willing to crank the table up and down. While the Bridgeport wasn't made just for drilling, it's probably the most common thing you'll see people doing on them. I've got an old Heald horizontal mill. It's far more rigid than a Bridgeport of the same size. The spindle is a 40 NMTB, which is much heavier than the R8 or Morse #2 tapers of the smaller Bridgeports. I often use end mills with it, which is a PITA as you have to work on the back side. Speeds are on the low side. Drilling is also inconvenient. But if I have to square up the edge of a big plate, using a face mill or an end mill or a side cutter, it's impossible to beat. At some point, I'll probably add either a vertical milling attachment or a separate Bridgeport- type head. Oh, and just to confuse things, Bridgeport did make a horizontal mill. But you'll rarely come across one. And there are horizontal milling adapters for the Bridgeports, but they add one more piece to a system already not known for its rigidity. John Martin Cumberland, Maine - where it's a perfect summer day ------- Re: ye Ol' Pen maker at Cabin Fever [sherline] Posted by: "Ron Ginger" rongingerx~xxroadrunner.com Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:34 am ((PST)) > However on a slightly more serious note, I will have to disagree > that cheap tools such as the 2X Mini Mill are better than no tools at > all. When beginners purchase this type equipment they limit their > skill development because of the limitations of the equipment. Ok, so what are the choices for a guy that wants a bigger machine than a Sherline? A Bridgeport is nice, reasonably available, but over $2000 and over 2000 pounds. Not something a lot of guys can handle. A used Clausing 8400 series is a nice machine, if you can find one. I have a nice one, it cost me about $600 many years ago, then $500 for scraping the worn ways, and $400 for new lead screws. It's now a fine machine. Ive seen them go for $1800 in good shape. It's just under 1000 pounds, takes 4-6 sq feet of floor space. The Prazi/Wabeco are not bad, made in East Germany. About $3000 for a benchtop machine. What else is there? Can you give a suggestion to a brand name and source of supply for a benchtop mill bigger than a Sherline and smaller than a Bridgeport? > The numbers on the Die you mentioned are a good example. While they > were easily machined freehand on a sherline mill, they simply would > not exist using typical Chinese machines in either manual or CNC. FREEHAND??? come on Jerry, I accept that you are a master machinist, among the very best I have ever met, there is no way I will believe you machined those freehand. On a Gorton pantagraph, sure, but not freehand. Just because I like a challenge, I will bring a small steel disk and a nice single point engraving tool to Cabin Fever. When the machine is running, I will engrave the same numbers on the disk using the mill. I will photograph it and post it here after the show. Anyone that will be at the show is welcome to watch this. Let's assume it will happen Sunday morning, say 10:00. ron ginger ------- Re: ye Ol' Pen maker at Cabin Fever Posted by: "n2562001" jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:24 am ((PST)) Ron: How can you afford not to purchase what you need? I can give many examples of how my Sherline equipment has paid for itself in an after- noon's work. This is not true with my Chinese machine tools. In fact what I have found is that many home shop machinists will do the simple procedures they are capable of for little of nothing. I should clarify by saying I am referring to the import hobby machines sold for under about $1000.00. Bench top machines, even the Chinese machines, in the $2000.00 to $3000.00 are of much higher quality than the under $1000.00 types. If your need or desire is only a basic procedure occasionally, just about anything will do. If you wish to learn and develop consistent quality machining skills you will need quality equipment. If you develop these skills there are many larger machine shops that give you small jobs connected to larger jobs they do not wish to do. Machines can easily pay for themselves in this manner as well as other work if need be. Life is no free lunch. If you have a little ambition and desire, $3000.00 is not out of the reach of the average person. Heck I know people who spend that much in a couple of months in a bar and other activities that will never return a dime. My issue is not with someone buying a cheap poor quality machine if that's what they wish to do. It's with those who tell unknowing people they can do the same things on a $400.00 machines that they can do on quality machines. If truly interested in machining, I strongly suggest people attend one of the smaller machine tool shows and get the feel for quality tools so you have a standard to judge equipment by. Brands and pricing can be sorted out at this type of show. In regard to the numbers on the Die. Not only was it done freehand, I have publicly taught this simple procedure at a number of workshops but mostly Horology related. I think I did screw up when I said they would not exist on typical chinese tools. I should have said thay would not exist AS THEY ARE on typical common hobby tools. While I don't know this, I suspect it could be done on a small $50,000.00 or so industrial Chinese CNC machine. I certainly agree it will be no problem to scratch a number on a disc with a pointed graver. However these numbers were machined using a .010" carbide endmill. The numbers are .058" high x .036" wide x about .005" deep as I remember. This will give you parameters for your demonstration. The freehand procedure is very simple if you or anyone else would like to try it. First if you closely inspect the numbers they are machined in block style. This can be easily seen by looking at the inside portion of the number. In other words for example the sides and top of the "O" were straight lines. When turning a corner the diameter of the endmill is used to determine the measurements. For example if I was doing the upper right hand corner of the "O", I would need to move the endmill .010" to the right while also moving it .010" back toward me or down simutaneously. This produces the rounded corners on all of the numbers. Doing this in one motion by turning both handwheels at the same time is far beyond my skill. (As I suspect you thought I was saying.) However in small steps it is very easy and is done as follows. When I get to a location where I want to turn a corner, I stop and record handwheel settings or zero the wheels. I then nudge each handwheel simultaneously the best I can only .001"-.002" at a time and stop. At this point I check the handwheels and reset if need be so that both have moved the same distance. These two steps are repeated until the endmill has turned the corner and ready to move in another straight line. Because of the small size of the numbers this method works extremely well and any machining defects because of the starts and stops are not visible by the naked eye. While less effective on larger sizes it still works quite well up to a 1/32" endmill. If anyone would like to try a corner start with a 1/32" endmill and nudge the wheels simultaneously about .003"-.005" the best you can. You will be amazed at the results and how well it works even on the first try. When completed any nearly invisible defects can be erased with a Bead- blaster as they were on the Die. The rounded surface corners of the numbers from blasting were removed when the surface of the die was ground. Sorry I won`t get to see the Demo but will be waiting to see the results. Jerry Kieffer [and in a later message:] Ron. By the way I forgot to mention this in my last post. THANK YOU for offering to do a Demo on your opinion that very few offer to do. Win or lose you are the winner by making it fun and productive for all. ------- Taig Milling Table Durability [taigtools] Posted by: "steve794613" steve794613x~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Sun Apr 19, 2009 3:02 pm ((PDT)) Hi: I have just joined but I have been keeping an eye on the posts for a short time. The Leadscrew topic has been very busy and interesting. I am thinking of buying the Taig Mill but I have concerns about the "hard anodised table". I was just wondering how durable and hard the table is when subjected to normal use? I am not currently going the CNC route so I would not buy the extra sub table that people seem to use. Would I need to be extra careful when I attach a steel vice or cast iron rotary table? Am I likely to damage the table? Thanks for your help. regards Steve ------- Re: Taig Milling Table Durability Posted by: "Ken Cline" clinex~xxfrii.com Date: Sun Apr 19, 2009 3:48 pm ((PDT)) As long as you don't throw the vise or rotary table around, the anodized surface should hold up. At least I don't have any marks on my table. I frequently use a 3" toolmaker's vise and 4" rotary table. ------- Re: Taig Milling Table Durability Posted by: "wildhorsesoftware" gfbx~xxmypage.net Date: Sun Apr 19, 2009 4:05 pm ((PDT)) Steve: First thing to remember is that "hard anodizing" is a bit like powder coated paint. It's still just a covering over the underlying material. Provides a bit more abrasion resistance to the finish, but doesn't affect strength at all. A tool will punch through it as if it's not there. That being said, the Taig table is a pretty tough cookie. No need to worry about attaching vices of any other tooling. I generally have a fixture, or at least a sacrificial surface (3/8" aluminum plate) on my table. My table still got a drill hole within the first month I got it. But then so did my Bridgeport clone. Might have something to do with the operator. Bottom line is the Taig is a great machine for the price. Mine is CNC and I run it 6-8 hours a day, cutting aluminum sbout half the time, plastics the rest of the time. The only problem I've ever had is belt alignment. I have the larger motor and the motor mount is a bit weak for its weight. But once I took an hour or so to analyze the problem a do some fine aligning, adding a few shims to get the motor mount exactly level, belts seem to last forever. BTW, order extra belts with the mill. If you don't have extra belts, you will definately have a belt break at 2:00am on Sunday morning when you are working on a project you want finished Sunday afternoon and you won't be able to even order a new belt until Monday, much less get it in hand. If you decide on the Taig (which you should do unless you are willing to spend a LOT more money) get the motor and spindle upgrade, no matter what your application. No matter what you think you are going to use the machine for, you are going to find more uses as time goes by. After only 18 months I'm using the machine for things I never dreamed I would when I bought it. Happy milling and let the "chips" fall where they may. Regards, Gary ------- Re: shop equipment [LittleEngines] Posted by: "KJ" kenn_kitex~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Nov 1, 2009 6:42 am ((PST)) Steve Binnix wrote: > I have been researching shop equipment for several weeks now. Usual constraints, small space, low budget. Even though having been in wood working for many years and understanding the concept of mutiple machines for faster prodcution without new setups....will I be able to build effect projects on something like a Smithy Granite or similar combo mill without too much hassle? < Steve: Having owned and operated a Smithy Granite 1324, I will attest that for the money, size, footprint, overall capability, and quality of the machine, it is for sure a very satisfactory choice. I also researched and looked before going with the 1324. This was a used machine, and had seen a years worth of hard use, but was well worth the price and effort to retrieve and move. Smithy's support is excellent, 2 year warranty, and there is an independant group on yahoo that is a truly impressive: smithy-machinesx~xxyahoogroups.com 3in1 machines definitely serve the purpose for many amateur home shop machinists. They do require setup time to switch from milling to lathe, and vice versa, however, that aside, they do provide the overall required functionality. The primary objection heard on these boards is the set-up time, between function types; well, the old saying "you get what you pay for" comes into play. Purchasing two separate machines would cost more in most cases (new)than what you'll spend for a 3in1. BTW, you may find a used machine amongst the Smithy group, as some of them move upto dedicated machines. Hope this helps. Kenn ------- Re: shop equipment Posted by: "wb2tdg" WB2TDGx~xxaol.com Date: Sun Nov 1, 2009 7:11 am ((PST)) Welcome to the group here. I don't post here that often but would like to give you my thoughts on a larger 3-1. I started about 10 years ago with a Grizzly 9729. I've had a few problems in the first year with a motor issuse and a chuck with over .10 runout. The company sent a new chuck and this one is within .002. As far as the type of work it can be difficult to setup and do milling as far as the height goes. There are ways around it at times. I also own a 7X12, 9X20 and an X2 mill. All have had many problems that had to be addressed. I've built about 30 steam engines on the 9729 from PM research to a full size Pearl engine for my sidewheeler. To sum it all up if I had to only have 1 machine it would be the 3-1 combo. Hope this helps you. Ken ------- Which is Best Benchtop Mill for the Money [DIY-CNC] Posted by: "greghydn" greghydnx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Mar 28, 2010 1:16 pm ((PDT)) Just wondering if anyone has any advice for someone in the market for a small mill! I'm leaning toward the Microlux machine from MicroMark. ------- Re: Which is Best Benchtop Mill for the Money Posted by: "decoder" dec0derx~xxntlworld.com Date: Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:11 pm ((PDT)) Hi, I can recommend the AXMINSTER X1. I have recently bought one and I have just converted it to cnc and it was a very reasonable price. Axminster have a website and are very helpful if you decide to talk to them. The X1 is the smallest, the X2 a bit bigger and the X3 I think is the biggest but they are all benchtop machines. Put axminter X1 into youtube and there are videos of them working. Best Regards Clive (UK) ------- Re: Which is Best Benchtop Mill for the Money Posted by: "Mike Payson" mikex~xxkludgineering.com Date: Mon Mar 29, 2010 6:52 pm ((PDT)) Man, what a can of worms you have opened. You'll probably get almost as many different answers to that question as there are people on this list. :-) The Micromark is definitely a well regarded mill, but just about anyone who owns one (or any other X2 sized mill) will tell you that they wish their mill was bigger (Me for instance). The one that seems to be getting the best reviews lately is the new G0704 from Grizzly: http://www.grizzly.com/products/Drill-Mill-with-Stand/G0704 It is generally regarded as superior to the X3 series mills, as well as being bigger and cheaper. Pretty hard to beat. The Grizzly's have not been around for long, but the same basic mill has been available for a year or so from a variety of suppliers including: Lathemaster http://www.lathemaster.com/Lathemaster%20LM25L%20Milling%20Machine.htm Big Dog Metal Works http://www.bigdogmetalworks.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idpro duct=780&idcategory=16 and Precision Matthews http://www.machinetoolonline.com/PM-MV-BenchMills.html so it has a fairly well established track record as a quality machine. With shipping, the Grizzly comes out to about $400 more than the Micromark, but it is a far more capable machine. ------- Re: Which is Best Benchtop Mill for the Money Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Mon Mar 29, 2010 6:59 pm ((PDT)) Darren Clark wrote: > I'm thinking about picking up a Smithy Granite 1340 Max once my workshop > is finished this summer. It's a 3 in 1, drill press, mill, lathe. > Anybody on the list have any experience with one? We have a 3-in-1 at work, it is actually a pretty HORRIBLE mill. Not so bad as a lathe, but still kind of mediocre. I think the Smithy is better made in several ways, but it still is a very big compromise. Jon ------- Largest X and Y cuts on 2000 [SherlineCNC] Posted by: "Ron Dunn" rondx~xxmicrosoft.com Date: Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:16 pm ((PDT)) I'm in the process of buying a Sherline CNC milling machine, but I can't decide between 5400 and 2000. The deciding factor will be the size of the workpiece I can machine in the X and Y dimensions, but I'm having trouble finding this figure. The quoted X and Y travel don't exactly equate to the cutting dimension, especially once throat depth is taken into account. Would someone with experience of these machines please quote the size of the maximum rectangle that can be cut on each machine? Ron Dunn ------- Re: Largest X and Y cuts on 2000 Posted by: "Tom Wade" tomx~xxwade.name Date: Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:12 am ((PDT)) Don't know if I can answer all of your question. I'm running sort of a bastard 5400. I added the 12" base later. Absolute maximums I don't know. In the X axis, I find that I'm just limiting my parts (for planning purposes) to about 7" or a tad longer. I think the table travel is actually a touch over 8" normally. There is a stop screw under the table which can be removed if you need to get a touch more travel. I wouldn't normally leave this out. According to the published figures, you have 9" of travel, so you should be able to cut around a rectangle about 8.5" long. Actually, a bit more, if you used a smaller diameter cutter. Are you talking about cutting the outside of a rectangle? The limit would be max table travel, minus the diameter of the cutter, minus a bit for sneaking up on a dimension. Yes, the throat depth on any mill can be a limitation. However, there is a spacer block which can be used between the column and the head on the 5400, to gain another inch or so of throat depth. I keep this riser block installed most of the time. The throat depth is about 3.5", so you can probably cut around the outside of a rectangle about 3" wide. Good machining practice is to clamp down a workpiece, then do as many operations as possible without disturbing it. However, if you need to occasionally cut a larger piece, especially in the X axis, you can machine one end of the part, then shift it on the table to do the other end of the part. If you routinely need to cut parts much larger than this, the Sherline might not be the right machine for you. Do you need lots of parts cut from larger sheets of steel? Take a look at Plasmacam. The Plasmacam is fast, but pretty much limited to steel. Need to cut lots of parts out of thicker pieces of other materials? Look at a water jet. A bit slower and more costly to operate, but cuts almost any metal, plus lots of other stuff as well. Water jets are used to cut carpet for automobile installations, as they are fairly fast, and dust free. Hope this helps. Tom Wade ------- Re: Largest X and Y cuts on 2000 Posted by: "imserv1" imservx~xxvectorcam.com Date: Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:13 am ((PDT)) Ron, This is one of those questions that if you have to ask, your underlying premise may be flawed. The Sherline machines are for making "miniature" sized parts. You should not plan to place a "maximum" cube shaped part on the machine. If you need to machine parts that size, you will not be happy (or probably successful) with anything less than a full sized mill, like a Bridgeport. Having said that, you should be aware that there are fixturing tools that can increase the available envelope for a Sherline. 1) The Horizontal Base Plate permits the 5400 to be setup like a Horizontal boring mill. This may affect your decision as a HBM has a clearance in the vertical direction that can allow a much larger cube part to be installed, even though you may not be able to machine it all in one clamping. The 2000 comes with enough knuckles to be setup as a HBM with no alterations. 2) There are riser blocks available for both machines that permit higher Z, and longer Y travel clearances. 3) Extended bases and Tables are available that can increase the travels to 14 inches in X and 11 inches in Y directions. 4) Extended 15" column with 10.25" of vertical travel now available as an option for the 2000 (may be available for the 5400 too). Hope that helps. Fred Smith - IMService http://www.imsrv.com ------- Re: Largest X and Y cuts on 2000 Posted by: "wongsterwish" wongsterwishx~xxyahoo.com.sg Date: Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:29 am ((PDT)) I'm on 18" table (sherline), 15" column (sherline), and the long Y base (don't know the length - from A2ZCNC). Just did a simple job of 200mm long with plenty of space left. Have not measured the max travel of the axes. I find that adding the A2Z's spacer block (or any spacer block extending too far out) makes the column relatively more "whippy". I'm thinking of the 2000's extension arm (can't remember the name of that thing). Wong ------- Re: Largest X and Y cuts on 2000 Posted by: "Philx~xxYahoo" yahoox~xxphilmattison.com Date: Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:48 am ((PDT)) I had an off-the-shelf Sherline 2000 and I found the work envelope in X/Y to be about 7" x 5" (respectively), give or take a little for tool size. I'm assuming you were looking for the simple answer. Phil M. ------- Re: Largest X and Y cuts on 2000 Posted by: "djmorrow2004" morrow2002x~xxlightspeed.ca Date: Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:06 pm ((PDT)) You can add a bit more Y axis capacity by making your own sub-base. The larger your work piece is in the Y direction, the smaller the work envelope can become because it bumps into the column. I found this out cutting clock gears. This is what I did: http://www.ldrider.ca/cnc/sherlinebase/sherlinebase.htm David ------- Re: Largest X and Y cuts on 2000 Posted by: "Mark Thomas" ylistsx~xxco-japan.com Date: Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:34 pm ((PDT)) Ron: If size is the real issue you may want to check out the optional bases offered by A2ZCNC. You can buy the basic parts you need from Sherline and the optional ones from A2Z. Usual disclaimers -- just a satisfied customer of both companies. Cheers, Mark ------- Re: Largest X and Y cuts on 2000 Posted by: "roninbendigo" rondx~xxmicrosoft.com Date: Tue Apr 20, 2010 5:05 pm ((PDT)) Thanks to everybody for their responses. ------- [taigtools] Re: review of X2 mill (Seig) - worth considering? & international sh Posted by: "lhbakeland" digitaltorquex~xxaol.com Date: Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:39 pm ((PST)) I have the Sieg X2, the X1, the Sherline and the Proxxon. If I was going to buy only one, I'd buy the Taig. In my opinion, the Taig is the best of all these. The Proxxon is too small and the collets takes only up to 1/8 inch diameter end mills. The Sherline has a superior motor and speed controller. The Siegs are labor intensive in keeping the gibs of the table in adjustment. The current Taig mill has the superior "taper" gib adjustments, as does the Sherline. The Taig, if you are buying the current model, has an ER16 spindle, allowing the fixing of end mills of 3/8 inch or 10mm ind shank diameter. Half inch end mills are widely available at inexpensive prices with 3/8 inch shanks. The least expensive Taig motor is a joke. Luckily, I was able to adapt the Sherline motor, speed controller and drive to the Taig mill. This combination is IDEAL. The Sherline system automatically adjusts to 120VAC or Australian 220VAC. To me, that would be the ideal system. Not cheap, but well worth it. Of all the mills, I use the Taig the most, the Sherlines occasionally, and the Siegs the least. Regards, Leo ------- adding a mill [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "dws" dwshelfx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:24 am ((PDT)) > Does anyone have an opinion of a good Milling Machine companion to my > 12" Atlas Lathe. Need to stick to single phase. Don't have a > fortune to spend. Thought about the Atlas Horizontal Mill, but have > this notion that I should get a vertical machine. Any thoughts 1. A vertical mill is far more versatile than a horizontal mill. 2. R8 tooling is vastly cheaper and more diverse than the rest of it added together. Downside: it's more of a pain working from the top of the spindle all the time. 3. Most vertical mills will replace your drill press. When you go looking at garage sized mills, you come to four categories. 1. Bridgeport and clones. 2. The 700 lb mill currently sold by HF for $900 (before discount) and by dozens of other brands before and now for far more. 3. The "mill/drills". 4. The micro mills. Your enemy is always going to be lack of rigidity. You can't always make up for lack of rigidity by going slower. If you're milling steel, the micro-mills should be seen as maxing out around a 1/4" size end mill. They might do AL bigger than that, but they're not really a solution for general projects. The mill/drills go a little larger, but not much. The 700 lb guys are useful, you can often find one for $600 or less even with some tooling and a stand. Usually 1PH. You will sometimes find these being sold for as high as $2000, just learn to recognize them. The Bridgeports+clones are ubiquitous of course. Most of them come with 3ph, but you can use a VFD on an older step pulley model to get to a very cost effective solution. You can also use a rotary phase converter, I gave up on the static ones. In my experience, the feature most valuable in a mill is a DRO. It will add to your capabilities overnight. ------- Re: adding a mill Posted by: "Starlight Tool Services Ltd" starlight_toolsx~xxtelus.net Date: Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:10 am ((PDT)) One of the best things I did when I was in your situation was invest in a Bridgeport Clone. They take up a bit more space than the mill/drills or dovetail square column mills, but they give you a lot better work envelope. If you are only ever making watch parts, probably way overkill, but if you are going to do a little of all sorts of things, they are your best bang for the buck. A good condition used Bridgeport can be obtained used or even rebuilt from a qualified rebuilder for about what a dovetail square column mill will cost. They are advertised moderately regularly on the bridgeport yahoo group. Any milling machine is going to take up floor space. You need room around them and to each side. A lot of that room is so you can handle long stock etc. I have my Vertical Knee mill set up so it is backed into a corner, such that the ram can be swung from side to side with the head closest to the base and the back of the ram clears the wall by about 1/4". The X axis of the table lines up with a doorway for longer stock. Over on the Southbend group, Dennis Turk, one of the more respected members has commented a few times that the only milling attachment for a lathe worth getting is a Chevalier Vertical Knee Mill, ie a Bridgeport Clone. Do not be afraid to look at a machine that has a 3 phase motor. Conversion so that it can be run in a household shop with single phase power is really easy these days. As dws stated a VFD can be used. They are relativly inexpensive and give the mill a lot of neat "extra" features, like ramp up soft start, braking, variable speed which works over and above your belt changes, gear changes of variable belt drive changes. The VFD shines when only one motor needs to be dealt with. If you have multiple 3 phase motors on one tool, then you need a VFD and a line choke for each. Gets more expensive and more complicated wiring. As dws stated about giving up on static phase converters, they are dinosaurs that have barely survived and are thing of the past. They are ineffeicent, hard on motors and have to be derated by 2/3 right off the bat. IE a three horsepower motor will only put out two horsepower on a Static phase converter. The way I went to solve the 3 phase power issue was to install a RPC, Rotary Phase Converter. I have some tools that have VFD's and they can be used off the RPC with no problems, although they could have been wired to 1 phase. With the RPC, I can take any motor, up to the maximum that the RPC is designed to handle and run it along with others at the same time. I do not have to do anything to the machine, just plug and go! RPC's can be obtained a number of ways. Google "Fitch Williams" and you will get all sorts of plans for building them yourself. My concern with these is that they leave out almost all of the safety devices that should be included and unless you are electrically conversant and can add those features will possibly void your fire insurance if there is ever a need for an inspection. I recommend, use and supply my clients with PhaseMAXX RPC's. I like the soft start versions and I have the TLC timing Line Contactor built right in, so it is not neccesary to run control wires from each machine back to the RPC to disable them from starting if the third leg is missing. Without the TLC, there is always single phase being supplied to the machine even when the RPC is off, and single phasing a 3 phase motor will cause it to burn up. www.electram.com this will give you a good idea of these systems and what is available. They are not the cheapest RPC, but they run properly and safely. If you want to see pictures of my shop and how I show horned the mill in, see my photo gallery at http://hobby-machinist.com/index.php?action=gallery;cat=3 Walter ------- Re: adding a mill Posted by: "Rick" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:36 am ((PDT)) I have owned a RF30 for 20 years and have no desire to upgrade to a BP. It all depends on what you plan to do with it. Now, I did recently upgrade to a 3 phase 2 HP motor and a VFD. Nice improvement. I also have power feed on my X axis and a DRO. Rick rick.sparber.org ------- Re: adding a mill Posted by: "Starlight Tool Services Ltd" starlight_toolsx~xxtelus.net Date: Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:12 am ((PDT)) Rick: I agree, depends on what you are doing with the mill. In my example I used watch making, well the parts are all really small and a small mill will be more than adequate. In my case, I am regularly putting large weldments on mine to redo holes when the Timber frame shop accross the street has had them made wrong and needs them corrected, or when I went to modify the Holdridge 8D Radii cutter to fit my lathe and had to figure out how to mount it to do the modification. Holdridge offered to do the mod at no cost to me, other than shipping, which was going to be a bear as it had to cross the border twice. Here is some info and pictures, including one of the set up in the mill to modify the frame http://hobby-machinist.com/index.php?topic=1308.10 Walter ------- Re: adding a mill Posted by: "rburkheimer" burkheimerx~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Aug 30, 2011 6:13 am ((PDT)) I suspect you would prefer a U.S.-made mill of the same approx period as your lathe. 3 suggestions, small to large: As someone else said, a Clausing mill would be of the same family and vintage as your lathe, and are good machines. My preference would be a Rockwell mill. They are smaller verticals and very highly regarded. Also consider a Millrite, particularly the later MVNs which are painted metallic green with a white racing stripe. These are essentially 3/4-size Bridgeports, with tables up to 8x36. I have one and I think it's the perfect machine for a hobby shop. ------- Re: adding a mill Posted by: "Richard Marchi" rfmarchix~xxaol.com Date: Tue Aug 30, 2011 6:34 am ((PDT)) I had intended to get a used BP when I was setting up shop, but couldn't find one nearby and in reasonable condition/price. I agree with the thread about not worrying the 3 phase power to death. there are good inexpensive solutions. Anyway, I came up with a good solution to the BP, quite by accident and suggest you keep it in mind. I bought a Burke #4 horizontal mill that had an aftermarket vertical head added, which were apparently quite popular back in the day. The head is belt driven off the main horizontal spindle, so there's no second motor to deal with. The machine has a huge 1 phase reversible geared head motor and enough pulleys to get a full range of speeds. Of course, in addition to the vertical head, it has a normal overarm for slitting saws, slabbing mills, etc. It has a powered X feed, but lacks a quill - which is a real pain if you plan to do much boring. However, in the 700 lb category, this is a real machine tool, very rigid and well made. I still have a BP in the back of my mind but, for now, the little Burke does the (relatively small) jobs I need to do. I still lust after the old Cincinnati horizontal universal with a BP head rigged at the end of the overarm that we had in the lab... a big, strong machine with 3 axis power feeds and rapid traverse... sigh! Anyway, don't be put off by the 3 phase stuff and keep your eye open for a Burke #4. It just might do the job for you. Dick Gangplank Marina Slip Washington, DC 20024 ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following conversation relates to a mill set up for CNC operation, but offers some insight into size choices for fans of Sherline type machines. ------- fun with a rotary table [SherlineCNC] Posted by: "Thayer Syme" thayerx~xxgryffinaero.com Date: Sun Oct 16, 2011 11:20 pm ((PDT)) After some uncertainty and swapping some emails with Tim Goldstein over the weekend I got my new Sherline rotary table up and running today. I have an A2Z-CNC Monster Mill with Sherline's 10k spindle, Keling steppers and power supply, Mach3 and a Gecko 540. The spindle is manually controlled. As shown here I have it set to about 7k rpm. I am using a #72 drill, feeding .005 per peck at 2 ipm. I haven't done the math to figure out how conservative I am being, but I do know I have only broken these drills off the machine and it only takes a few minutes for the 40 holes. Sorry for the focus quality. I used the pinhole camera in my ipod nano and got a little too close. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXgky4UIcNs Thayer ------- Re: fun with a rotary table Posted by: "Martin Dobbins" trainnutzx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:46 am ((PDT)) Thayer, If the job is going fast enough for you and you aren't breaking drills, then you probably don't need to go any faster Thanks for posting this, very interesting. Did you have a regular Sherline mill before you got the Monster Mill? Martin ------- Re: fun with a rotary table Posted by: "Thayer Syme" thayerx~xxgryffinaero.com Date: Mon Oct 17, 2011 7:33 pm ((PDT)) Martin, That is certainly a good philosophy, and the one I had been going with myself. With a slow peck drill sequence and hand indexing the first part before I got the table wired and programmed, it took almost half an hour to drill the holes. With the table automated and things bumped up a bit, the cycle time is now just over 6 minutes. Not bad at all at this point. Once I have the spindle relay and cooling drip sorted out it will be a walk away situation which will be very workable for me for as many of these as I am going to be making. Re the mill, I had a Sherline 4400 lathe for several years before adding the mill. I had always wanted a Sherline 5400, but never pulled the trigger because I was confident I wanted a larger envelope. I wasn't aware of Sherline's extended axes until after finding out about the Monster Mill and at that point I already emotionally committed. One of the features I like most about it is the Z-axis range. It is nice to end a sequence with a G0 Z12 command which gets the sharp bits well clear of my hands most of the time. I do very much love its compatibility with all things Sherline though, and that was an instrumental factor in my purchase. Thayer ------- Re: Taig vs. Sherline? [SherlineCNC] Posted by: "Martin Dobbins" trainnutzx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:46 pm ((PST)) On Jan 16, 2012 DonH wrote: > Hi, I saw some comments in another thread suggesting that Taig units were better than Sherline in the context of being more rugged, more precise, and more powerful. I had looked at the Taig line before I had decided on Sherline. The Taig offerings look a bit... insubstantial and clunky, what my father would have called a "Rube Goldberg contraption." I do know that looks can be deceiving, but it seemed to me that Sherline was more supported, had more body of literature behind it, and has more versatility and available accessories. Are there any thoughts on this? Any further questions I need to answer before more precise advise can be given? I am almost finished my Certified Manual Machinist program and have begun my CNC machinist course. I have a Sherline 2000 manual mill, but am waiting to purchase a lathe; and if I find a better brand of mill, I could easily sell the Sherline 2000 for what I paid for it. I plan to make small, precision parts for microscopes and other scientific equipment, and would consider making small parts for customers on order. The more precision possible, the better. I am not worried about speed. I expect to need a compound, a rotary table, and a radius end cutter in addition to the basic mill and lathe of whatever system I buy. I know those things are available accessories for Sherline, but I don't know about the Taig. Thanks, Don < Hi Don, Simple answer: Sherline mill: Pros: variable speed motor, better class thread on the headstock for screw on accessories, hardened spindle nose for accuracy with MT1 spindle mount accessories, lots of accessories available, easy to upgrade to CNC with excellent bolt on motor mounts. Cons: Less travel/shorter table than Taig and only a 1/4-20" leadscrew compared to the 1/2-20 standard on the Taig mill (all of this can be addressed with add ons from A2Z CNC) Taig Mill: Pros: Beefier leadscrew, bigger travels, larger table Cons: Motor, headstock not hardened except ER16 versions, the CNC motor mounts leave a LOT to be desired, fewer accessories. Some people like a mix of a Sherline motor on a Taig Headstock with a Taig mill or even an entire Sherline motor and headstock on a Taig mill. If you want precision out of the box for small envelope work you have the right machine, what issues there are can easily be addressed. If you are on the lookout for a lathe for precision work, do not put the Taig lathe on your list, it has many more issues than the Taig mill. For precision consider Sherline, Cowells, Levin. My two cents, Martin ------- Re: Taig vs. Sherline? Posted by: "Ron Thompson" ronx~xxourcadguy.com Date: Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:31 pm ((PST)) When evaluating something, such as a machine tool, I would judge the work it is capable of doing and the longevity of the machine. This goes hand in hand with fitness of purpose. The cost of the machine divided by the life of the machine will give an idea of it's value. Also consider, cnc machines are capable of doing many things that manual machines require accessories to do. Looks are irrelevant. Ron Thompson ------- Re: Taig vs. Sherline? Posted by: "DonH" djhmisx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:14 pm ((PST)) Thanks Martin, that is just the type of pro/con comparison I was seeking! I suppose I'll keep the Sherline mill and upgrade the screws. I'm wondering if the A2Z aftermarket Z-axis screw has an anti-backlash nut like the one Sherline includes. Wow, I didn't know about Cowells and Levin, despite my searches for small precision machine equipment. I'll need to save up for one of those. In the meantime, I'm sure I can make things work with the Sherline system. I've seen the things people do with Sherline tools, and I've learned that a good machinist with a mediocre machine can produce better work than a bad machinist with a great machine. Thanks, Don ------- Re: Taig vs. Sherline? Posted by: "Sonny Mounicou" sonnyx~xxmounicou.com Date: Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:45 pm ((PST)) Don, I have a Taig mill CNCed and a Sherline 4400 lathe CNCed. I've also got a widgitmaster mini and v90 CNCed. The Taig mill feels sturdier than the Sherline mill. I can't say that I have compared output of both, but I have played with both in person. I didn't go with the Taig lathe because I didn't like the approach and it is more difficult to CNC. If I were starting over, I'd get a Taig CNC ready mill without the AC motor and add the sherline motor to it. Having used it on my lathe, it's fantastic. I can control the speeds via mach3 as well as get index feedback. With the Taig motor I'm consistently changing pulleys. It's not hard, but it's inconvenient. With the Taig you get a much larger leadscrew and the steel bracing. The accessories available for both mills are pretty comparable. I think with this approach, you'd get the best of both worlds. For the electronics on the Taig I use a STDR-4C from Soigeneris. It is a well packaged setup with a g540 in it. His 166 oz/in motors work great on the Taig. I was originally using the probotix v90 electronics with 270 oz/in motors, but I find the stdr-4c works much better. I do use a Sherline rotary table for a 4th axis on my Taig and it works well. In fact, I find myself taking the chuck off the lathe and moving it to the mill (or vice-versa) to do complex operations. Two really good resources to give advice are Jeff Birt from Soigeneris and Nick Carter from www.cartertools.com. Happy to answer any other questions you have and good luck! Sonny ------- [Milling machine choice for gunsmithing -- or similar work] A NEWBE WHO NEEDS HELP.... [taigtools] Posted by: "UNCLE GUIDO" slars1327x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:31 pm ((PDT)) Hi All, I am new here and I need some advice and opinions. I have recently retired and I am going to pursue my vocation and hobby with a bit more intensity. I have for 30 plus years worked on guns in my capacity with a major sheriff's dept. I have done 90% of my work by hand with the basics from sight adjustment, rail troubles, bent cranes etc. I have had the opportunity to attend many manufacturers classes, workshops etc over the years. Over the years I have been required to send the weapon back if any type warranty or machining work was needed. We had no machines other than a dremel tool and a drill press (cheap basic). I am now geared up to pursue things in a bigger way. I am looking to buy a piece of machinery...a mill to be exact. I need something that can handle slides on 1911's, sights on a rifle needing to be milled and installed, shimming, basic smithing and just all around tool of a million uses. I am having a large problem tho. I have been trying to figure which mill or mini mill, tabletop I should look to. I have been reading everything I can on the net as well as speaking to some contacts in the industry and asking "What mill machine will best suite my needs without overkill?" As I say, I have not been able to find anyone with a direct answer (other than manufacturers who recommend a 12 to 17 thousand dollar mill) anywhere in my research. Most of the time I read about a mill and the next paragraph I read another guy trashing the first. It has been frustrating. I am going crazy with this. I am now in a position to buy and equip my small shop space that has been leased and I still an not sure on the mill, mini mill, tabletop, etc. Now for the question. I have limited space as well as a set amount of funding availiable. I will be working slides, frames uppers lowers automatics and revolvers. I am not entering into barrels. Barrels have so much available that it isn't cost effective to venture there. I don't intend at this time to do manufacturing of a frame or lower do to ATF regs and costs for licensing. I have looked at Taig, Grizzly, Proxxon, x3's, Sherline etc. I have been looking at all I can find. Right now I have the world's biggest headache. I really need straightforward opinions, recommendations from anyone who cares to speak up, but I don't want to start a war between fellow members. I know some of you out there are in the smith side of the market and some are in the manufacturing side and I really need some input. The money I have to invest is a 1 time shot for now. I don't think a CNC is a good idea for starters ... maybe an upgrade later. So without any further confusion, HELP! I really would appreciate any input. Thanks in advance, SCOTT ------- Re: A NEWBE WHO NEEDS HELP.... Posted by: "chuck" chuckelsx~xxverizon.net whatsit_stick Date: Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:08 pm ((PDT)) Scott, your questions are very specific to gun smiths or gun enthusiasts. It may help to specify the size machine (X, Y, Z travels) you need and materials you need to cut as well as cutter sizes and cutting rates you expect to use. Jjust trying to help you ask the right questions. Chuck ------- Re: A NEWBE WHO NEEDS HELP.... Posted by: "Pierre Coueffin" pcoueffinx~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:29 pm ((PDT)) > sights on a rifle needing to be milled and installed If you're going to mill the receiver on a rifle to mount a scope, I'd cross off the Taig and Sherline sized mills, unless the barrel will be removed and reinstalled afterwards. ------- Re: A NEWBE WHO NEEDS HELP.... Posted by: "george" mndzbluex~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Jun 17, 2012 10:20 pm ((PDT)) Scott, from what I have seen on feedback, the better of a turn out is a Hybrid of Taig and Sherline. Both have their strengths. Some members have exchanged components between the two to make one that exceeds. Both Taig and Sherline will do what you need on average 12 in. maximum capacity. My best recommendation if you choose mini or bigger, is to purchase a bundle, mill and lathe combo, with as much accessories, vise, cutters as possible. And bring down the price to a bargain deal for a large purchase. Because, slowly you'll need this and that and it adds up. Take a look at some of the members' mill setups and you'll see an endless amount of accessories next to the mill. They all get used. Keep in mind as you go bigger, the limitation is transport and storage. If you have back problems the weight of components such as swapping out chucks on a large lathe. This is where the Taig Sherline come in, less size and weight. Consider a used good unit small or large. Don't be discouraged, I only felt regretful that I didn't by my Taig a lot sooner than I did, and I use it as a hobby. ------- Re: A NEWBE WHO NEEDS HELP.... Posted by: "THOMAS JONES" tomasanx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Sun Jun 17, 2012 11:06 pm ((PDT)) I did gunsmithing for a while and all though our shop was large enough to accommodate a full sized mill we didn't have the resources to buy one. I however, had my Taig mill. It worked great for some 1911, M1 Carbine, and other smaller pistols but it was really not big enough for most work. If you were going to work on 1911 slides only, then by all means the Taig is great. Otherwise, I would suggest looking at a Smithy mill/lathe combo or something of that ilk. ------- Re: A NEWBE WHO NEEDS HELP Posted by: "S or J" jstudiox~xxtbaytel.net Date: Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:18 am ((PDT)) Hi Scott Over the years I have gathered quite a few conversations comparing Sherline and Taig and other mills. It might be worth your time to skim through: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/mill_comparisons.txt As others have stated, it really depends on what your work envelope is. My Sherline mill would be fairly limited in tasks it could accomplish for gunsmithing. Okay for smaller jobs. A Taig mill is a bit larger in scope and would be a better choice. You might want to look at the links on my home page that show what incredible stuff folks are able to accomplish with Taigs and Sherlines, plus lots of other good metalworking files. Personally for your goal I would look at a larger mill, along the lines of a Sieg S3 or other brand equivalents. Here's a excellent conversation that may well answer your needs: http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=2064290 Mill drills with round columns are awkward to use if setups require the head to be raised/lowered, unless you modify the mill to retain X-Y while changing Z. You definitely will prefer a mill with vertical dovetails. The combo mill-lathes have few fans once they actually bought them -- nice in theory until you need to switch machine functions, and way less rigid than a dedicated mill. Same problem as with a Shopsmith woodworking all-in-one. I still ended up buying individual machines as I got tired of constantly having to change the setup during a project. Would have saved lots of money by buying the right machines first. regards Steve -- in Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ ------- Re: A NEWBE WHO NEEDS HELP Posted by: "Shad Henderson" ogberix~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:21 am ((PDT)) One thing you can do on a round-column mill to ensure it's positioned correctly after raising or lowering the head, Mount a cheap laser pointer on the head with a machined clamp. You can use a clothes pin or a spring clip to keep the button pressed if need be. Clear a space on the wall opposite of the mill, and draw a vertical line down the wall with a fine point Sharpie marker. Now, bump the head back and forth till the dot is centered on the line. So long as you start and finish on the line, the head should be pretty well lined up. The farther the distance between the head and the opposite wall, the more accurate you can get. As a guesstimate. My garage is 14' wide. Let's say the laser pointer is 12" away from the center of the column, and the column is 20" away from the wall. That leaves (14*12)-(20+12) = 136". Some trig tells me that the dot will move a little over 2" per degree of rotation. It isn't a perfect math situation, but pretty darn close, and it shows even a little bit of deviation very quickly. As you can see, the laser becomes a very, very long needled indicator. But there are a few caveats. #1, the mill *MUST* be level, and the column *MUST* be vertical. If the mill (and therefore the column) are at an angle, the dot will not follow a vertical path. If this isn't possible, mark the dot at the upper and lower extremes of head movement, and draw a line between them. At least the line reflects the sloped path the laser takes as the head is moved up or down. #2. It's a laser. Don't stare into it with your remaining eye. #3. It requires a clear space on the wall opposite the mill. #4. For tiny adjustments, it's a hassle to whump the head with a rubber mallet, cross the garage, eyeball the line, walk back, whump it from the other side a little softer, etc. Lather, rinse, repeat. #5. She Who Must Be Obeyed might take offense to a black line down the garage wall and get upset. #6. The object the line is on and the mill must be stationary between moves. #7. Resist the urge to tease the cat with the laser pointer. Or don't. I helped a friend do this on his mill, and it made a *world* of difference in ease of getting the head "just right" after moving it. Only issue was that he would forget to take the clippy off of the laser and drain the batteries. Just my $.02 worth. Shad H. ------- Re: A NEWBE WHO NEEDS HELP.... Posted by: "roberts" robert5721x~xxmac.com Date: Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:32 am ((PDT)) Sir, I do a lot of gunsmithing on 1911's, and if you are looking at cutting dovetails in a stainless or hard steel slide, the taig may not be the best machine for that. It would take many passes with minimal depth to accomplish what you need. Check out the mills at the Little Machine Shop, they might be better suited, but you will need many add on attachments and tooling for any machine. the web address is: http://littlemachineshop.com/default.php Good luck, and let us know how you are making out. A full sized industrial bench mill may be what you will need. Robert S ------- Re: A NEWBE WHO NEEDS HELP.... Posted by: "WAM" ajawam2x~xxcomcast.net Date: Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:53 am ((PDT)) If you do look to any of the Seig's (LMS, etc...) be aware that the smaller ones use a rack and pinion for the Z -- a bit sloppy to say the least. I modified mine to use a ballscrew from CNC Fusion and a stepper/driver combo from Anaheim Automation to get accurate movement of the Z. See my swarf page: http://home.comcast.net/~ajawam3/swarf/swarf.htm I have a design for using the CNC Fusion with a few gears to make a fully manual Z, but the stepper thing works so well that I may just stay with that. Check out the video links. I use mine a lot for my day job... works well. The SX2 variants (like the LMS) are belt drive BLDC spindles, so there's no gears in the spindle drive (as there is in the S2). Again it works really well (a recent complaint on the mini mill site concerning the inserts hasn't been an issue for me yet). ------- Re: A NEWBE WHO NEEDS HELP.... Posted by: "Stan Stocker" skstockerx~xxcomcast.net Date: Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:12 am ((PDT)) Hi Scott, My son is at PA Gunsmith School right now. I do full time watch and clock repair and restoration. I am quite sure the Sherline or Taig mills would be too limiting, and too light. They are great machines, I have a Sherline mill and lathe and two Taig lathes in my clock shop. But when it's time to play with firearms and make tools for clock work we usually head to one of the other workrooms, where the larger tools live. A cut that takes 10 passes on a Sherline, and pushes the machine to its limits, is made in two or three passes on a larger mill, without the machine even working hard. In the CNC subgroup of CAMS, we have several folks converting the Grizzly G0704 to CNC. They are all quite impressed with this machine. The light weight (under 300 pounds) makes me pause, but these guys are neither slouches nor quick to impress. Having fondled the parts of one torn down, I will say the fit and finish are a huge step above earlier Chinese machinery. I wouldn't mind adding one to the shop myself, but have no room, and can't justify the expense when I have machines in this size already. I have had a Grizzly G1006 with an aftermarket power feed since around 1996. It's a round column which can be a PITA now and then, but all in all I'm pretty happy with it. You will need a good vise, end mill holders, quality endmills, and other goodies as well. Steve Ackers "Gunsmith Machinist" books from Village Press are quite good if you are unsure of setups or approaches to the job at hand. After that, the AGI videos are fairly good from the few I've seen. If you must go to the benchtop size, Ron Ginger (another well known guy in the model engineering circles) has converted a number of the Little Machine Shop hi torque benchtop mini mills to CNC over the last couple of years. He has said publicly that he considers them excellent machines, in spite of the fact that they are from the PRC [China]. I looked at one to replace my little Sherline mill at Cabin Fever earlier this year, and liked what I saw. Once I have the three kids out of college and trade school, perhaps I'll spring for some new tools too! I hope this is helpful to you, Stan Stocker Bentonville, Virginia ------- Need a little advice.... [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Bill G" billgonzox~xxyahoo.ca Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:35 pm ((PDT)) A little off topic but I don't really know where else to go right now, my question is in regards to a mill that I'm looking at. First, I'm not a machinist, only as a hobby, I fool around trying to make things for my old car hobby and I know I need a mill to make some of the parts I need. A fellow in the Toronto area has a mill but it's a horizontal mill, BARKER PM MILLING MACHINE. I'm not familiar with this type of mill, but the price is right and it seems very well taken care of by the owners father who has passed away. Being a novice, is this machine something I should look at or should I look for a vertical machine? Are there any advantages or dis- advantages to a horizontal mill? Any input would be helpful and appreciated. Thanks Bill ------- Re: Need a little advice.... Posted by: "Eggleston Lance" wheezer606x~xxverizon.net Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:15 pm ((PDT)) This is a Ford vs Chevy discussion. I have a Burke 4 horizontal mill and it has done anything I want it to do in steel, aluminum and cast iron. It requires a little thinking adjustment to set up for horizontal milling rather than vertical, but it's just learning to use the tool. My concern with this particular mill is that it's a mite small. 3C collets and 4x12 table with 1/3 HP motor. What will you be milling? lance ------- Re: Need a little advice.... Posted by: "Bill G" billgonzox~xxyahoo.ca Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 8:09 pm ((PDT)) Hey Lance, Thanks for posting. What am I milling... well just about anything that I can try to make for my old car. Mostly steel metal and aluminum. Could be anything from brackets, engine, transmission pieces nothing too difficult as I'm not that good yet, but a few of the things I've turned on my lathe still need to be machined on a mill to finish the part off. I don't see anything too big, firstly I'll have a professional do it if it's that big, they have the machinery and the knowledge, secondly, the machine has to be small and light enough for me to get it into my basement. I know some hobby machinists get some pretty big machines in the basement but anything bigger or heavier than two guys can carry is too big for me. I'm more concerned with buying something that won't do what I want or the learning curve is too steep for my skills. I've purchased a few pieces of equipment that on hindsight and with more input from someone more knowledgeable might have steered me in another direction. Also, because of a lack of basic knowledge of the machines I've purchased, the sellers have... lets say exaggerated the condition and capabilities of the machine leaving me to research and find out after that I've got to source parts and then research how to fix it and then make the repair. All too familiar and frankly I'm getting a little tired of it. So that's basically why I'm asking. I'm not sure about buying new because I can't really justify the expense for something that is just a hobby and probably going to be used once or twice a month. So, there it is in a nut shell. The owner of the machine I'm looking at says it is in pristine condition (I wish I had a dollar for every time I've heard that), the asking price is $550 but I would have to believe that it's negotiable. What do you think a reasonable price would be? What do I look for on the machine that would indicate problems or some time and money to get it right? Would you suggest another machine? Any input would be appreciated at this point. Getting to sit down lately has been a painful experience for me if you get my drift. Bill ------- Re: Need a little advice.... Posted by: "Eggleston Lance" wheezer606x~xxverizon.net Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:14 pm ((PDT)) I went through this process this summer. I had a used Grizzly mini mill, which is about what you are looking at. I ran out of capacity on it in 2 months. I couldn't foresee the heavy pieces I would be working with. I asked the same questions about bigger hobby mills to more knowledgeable people and their answer was a Burke 4 or a Van Norman 1/2. Atlas Machine also made a nice hobby mill about that size / price. Burke bought a company that made a bit larger mill, the No.1 I think. It a bigger machine, but again comes apart. They run about the same money; shop Craigslist, eBay; expect to travel to pick it up. Join the Burke milling group or the Van Norman Group. They provide info / leads and may have units for sale. Someone near Rochester had a Burke 4 for sale early this summer. I drove 6 hours in a rented van for mine. They come apart into manageable sized parts two can carry. They are more robust machines than what you are looking at. Critical for me was: Condition of the bearings, table slide and knee operation. Availability of parts and tooling. I didn't want to get into oddball collet sizes or highly collectible $$$ items. The Burke 4 uses a B&S#9 collet available from Tools for Cheap. I made a couple different sized mandrels for it on my lathe and hold them in the collet. This way I can use various cutters. Also, most people think Bridgeport for mills, but the horizontals will do the same work and are much cheaper. Also, the Burke 4 can be had with a vertical head attachment. Mine has one, but it is funky and I haven't taken it apart to fix it yet. Depending on where in Canada you are, look at Hamilton, Niagara Region on Craigs List. Also, look at Cleveland and Buffalo, Rochester. You can bring machinery over the border for hobby use, I got a nice Myford in Hamilton a few years ago, brought it back to Hamburg, NY. No trouble at the Peace Bridge. If you have 220V in your shop, there are more options. If not, then consider a 220V mill with a VFD < that's another topic> but don't dismiss a 220V machine that meets your needs/price. There are ways to overcome the lack of 220VAC. lance ------- Re: Need a little advice.... Posted by: "Eggleston Lance" wheezer606x~xxverizon.net Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:26 pm ((PDT)) Here's one near Rochester NY http://rochester.craigslist.org/tls/3263940567.html Price IS negotiable. Way more machine than mine, with a horizontal and vertical head. I saw this machine early summer. It works fine. It's greasy and dirty, sitting in a working shop. You'd have to come with a trailer. He has a front loader to load it. You'd have to take it apart to get it down stairs. It's about the size of a refrigerator. The point is, you can get a hell of a lot more machine for the money than the little Barker. lance ------- Re: Need a little advice.... Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:37 pm ((PDT)) My take on this is that the Barker is a decent small machine, and is still being made, BUT has disadvantages. Likely not worth that price to you. 1) most are "manufacturing" machines, with lever feed, so they do not "do" precise work in more than one dimension.... they will happily mill off the top of something to a dimension, but they won't do that for precisely 1.657 inches, unless you set up table stops etc. There WAS a lead screw option, but few seem to ahve them, and you would not like the price. 2) they are small ....really small.... milling machines are useful only when the part cam be clamped onto the table.... with a single slot, and short table, the ability to actually reach and machine the part, let alone being able to actually clamp it down to a part of the table that is still visible when the part is in place, can be an issue. 3) they are basically horizontal machines... but unless you get one with the overarm attachment, they are very limited horizontal machines. Of course you can "turn your thinking" 90 deg, and use like a vertical, but the space and reach issues become a problem. Some info and pictures: http://www.lathes.co.uk/barkermiller/ You can see in the pics that the machine is not large at all. I would instead look for a Benchmaster, which is convertible horizontal and vertical (you need the appropriate parts), or one of the other small horizontal mills like Burke, or for vertical mills, Rockwell, Clausing, etc. All small enough to move, and FAR more useful for general work than the Barker. JT ------- Re: Need a little advice.... Posted by: "Bill G" billgonzox~xxyahoo.ca Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 10:35 pm ((PDT)) Well, this is exactly the type of input I was looking for. Thank you to everyone for their opinions. I get the feeling that the Barker is not the machine for me. I'm going to go over the previous posts and do my homework. Thanks to all and if anyone has anything else to add, please, I'm trying to learn and I'm open and receptive to all suggestions from obviously more experienced operators than myself. Bill ------- Re: Need a little advice.... Posted by: "wa5cabx~xxcs.com" Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 10:43 pm ((PDT)) Atlas also made a bench horizontal mill, the Model MF (MFA, MFB, MFC, etc.). 18-1/2" x 4-1/2" table, 10-1'2" cross-feed, 6" vertical feed. 1/2 HP motor. 2MT spindle. And there have been a number of vertical attachments made for it. Also sold by Sears under the Craftsman badge. But you won't likely find a decent condition one for $550. On your question about what a vertical mill will do that a horizontal won't, aside from several things where one or the other would do it better or more efficiently, I can only think of one thing. If you need to mill a slot with an end mill at any significant angle to the length of the part, you can just clamp it onto the vertical mill's table at a horizontal angle to the table. But with the horizontal, the angle must be vertical which means propping one end of the workpiece up. So steady fixturing would be a problem. And depending upon the length of the part, you may not have enough vertical travel to reach where you need the slot. I just ran into exactly this problem while making a pair of CS-81 Test Cases on my 3996 lathe with milling attachment and rotary boring table in place of the vise (which is basically a horizontal mill but without the propping problem). The end of the part hits the ways before I get to the end of the slot. Tapping holes is a lot easier on a vertical than on a horizontal. But you can't for example cut two or more parallel slots simultaneously on a vertical. And if you need to for example flatten a warped carburetor base, you can get a better finish (if you have the right cutter) on a horizontal than a vertical. I should have added that the best of both worlds in one machine is a horizontal mill with a decent (meaning in my opinion that the quill is extendable as on any vertical mill) vertical attachment. But you're beginning to get into real bucks with such a setup. Especially by the time that you decently equip it. Robert D. ------- Re: Need a little advice.... Posted by: "Carvel Webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za Date: Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:28 pm ((PDT)) Bill: Both types have their uses, and the small horizontal mill is often underrated due to the popularity and availability of far east "mill/drills". I have a small Atlas MFC and have found it most useful. I am copying you direct with two Popular Mechanics articles on the machine from the 1950's but still valid - one shows general horizontal milling, and the other is end milling, which should give you some idea of how one would use it. See if you get them. Regards, Carvel ------- Re: Need a little advice.... Posted by: "Guenther Paul" paulguenterx~xxatt.net Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 2:18 am ((PDT)) If you want a mill I would not buy a horizontal mill for my only mill. Look for a good vertical machine. A horizontal has its limits just like Bill is saying. If you find a horizontal with a vertical head that would be much better; even then you have to raise the table using it vertical. Find a good vertical machine with a functional quill with power feed on the quill. If you can buy the horizontal cheap then I would consider it but the machine will set with very little use. GP ------- Re: [atlas_craftsman] Re: Need a little advice.... Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 7:01 am ((PDT)) I ought to mention that the only mills I HAVE are horizontal, although I have a vertical head for one, the Lewis, and I am converting the Benchmaster to a vertical mill. Swapping over the Lewis is such a nuisance that I have not done it for a year at least, I use it as a horizontal. The Benchmaster I will use as a vertical. I have no particular problem with the 90 degree conversion in thinking, but in many cases that means you cannot really see what you are doing. And since having one mill and using it both for cutters on arbors and in end mill holders still means some conversion, I would prefer (since I got the Benchmaster at a ridiculous cheap price) to have both types available. Pure laziness, I suppose. JT ------- Re: Need a little advice.... Posted by: "dws" dwshelfx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:00 am ((PDT)) If it is at all possible, the single thing an amateur can do to increase his capabilities is to solve the mill problem with a real mill. Trying to mill on the cheap always leaves one struggling with a dancing bear solution. Yes, it will mill, hooray. No, it won't mill very well, but it will mill right here. And it can be moved by hand. Etc. A real mill isn't that expensive. $2000..$4000 will get one a fine Bridgeport sized mill including 2-axis DRO and X axis power feed. The problem is that for most of us, it will require professional assistance to be delivered to where it needs to be. A tricked out (DRO, PF) $1000 mill/drill might work on the very low end, and is (barely) human movable at around 600lb. Nothing less than that will solve the general mill problem acceptably. However, once you have that mill sitting there, you can stop putting energy (and money) into figuring out a solution to your milling problem, and start making chips. A small (human movable) lathe is far more broadly useful than a small mill. ------- Re: Need a little advice.... Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:35 am ((PDT)) A lift gate truck and a couple rollers made of black iron pipe are all you need to move a full-size Bridgeport. I've moved mine twice that way. You DO need to be careful as they are a bit top-heavy, but sensible precautions and save the beer for later are all you need. Jon ------- Re: Need a little advice.... Posted by: "William Abernathy" williamx~xxinch.com Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:28 pm ((PDT)) Bill: I currently own a Barker PM, and can offer some advice based on my experience with it. The observations I've seen here are mostly correct. It is a small machine, gratifyingly solid and capable in its work envelope, but limited in what it can do. There are three different ways that the table is actuated: Rack-and-pinion levers, micrometer screws, and a hydro-pneumatic system. The rack-and-pinion setup is by far the most common. This is an excellent setup for production work. You set the cutter height with a shaper/planer gauge, lock the jam nuts, and you can cut perfect splines, slots, keyseats, or hex-heads all day. It does not move. It makes metal you point at it go away. Whether the Barker can be used as a general-purpose horizontal mill depends on which Barker you have. Early Barker PMs had an outboard support for shell mills and other work requiring support for a long bar. This means you set the height and lock it down, and it stays put. On later Barkers, the headstock has a slightly different casting that supports an overarm brace. This is much more desirable for a general-purpose horizontal mill, as you can adjust height more or less on the fly. So, if the Barker has micrometer feeds and an overarm support, I say "go for it." If it's got lever feeds and there's no provision for an overarm support, it's not going to be money well spent for a general-purpose machine. Finally, just to add a little fuel to the fire, has anyone here worked with one of these: http://www.grizzly.com/products/Mini-Horizontal-Vertical-Mill/G0727 It looks to be about the same size and mass as a Barker, but with the benefit of a ready-to-go vertical head. If you have any remaining questions about the Barker, take it to the Barker_Hor_Mill Yahoo! group cc'd on this message. It is a very low- traffic list (not many Barkers/owners in the world), but if you have a question, it will get an answer. William ------- Re: Need a little advice.... Posted by: "Richard Marchi" rfmarchix~xxaol.com Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 1:42 pm ((PDT)) The best mill I ever used was a big Cincinnati horizontal with a Bridge- port "J" head mounted on the end of the overarm. It was a universal mill with a swiveling table and power feed on all axes with rapid traverse. Unfortunately, my retirement hobby shop ain't in that league. When I was looking for a mill, I was only considering vertical machines, hoping that a decent Bridgeport, Van Norman or Millright might appear in my (low) price range. Then, I happened on a local Burke #4 with an aftermarket vertical head at a price that was too good to pass on. So... I am getting used to looking at jobs from a different angle, especially when I use end mills in the horizontal spindle. It has advantages and disadvantages. It does a terrific job with both hogging stock and giving a fine finish when using the overarm/arbor combination. I doubt that you'll find any vertical machine in that size category that can remove stock as fast or produce as nice a finish using an end mill or fly cutter. On the other hand, the vertical head doesn't have a power down feed, which I sorely miss when trying to index precise holes or using a boring head. I suppose I might be able to rig a power up feed on the knee, but that seems like a lot of work. All in all, I'm happy with the quality and rigidity of the Burke and will keep looking for a vertical head with power down feed. I guess my answer is that I wouldn't recommend a machine, like the Barker, that doesn't have lead screws on all axes. I would recommend something a little larger and more rigid than that one. As folks have mentioned Burke and Atlas both have decent horizontals that come up for sale at decent prices. However, on the question of horizontal versus vertical, I'm of mixed opinion. The verticals I would like are a lot larger than the Burke or Atlas, and my shop is somewhat constrained. I guess my ideal would be the Burke or Atlas with a power down feed vertical head. Happy hunting! Richard Marchi Gangplank Marina Slip H-22 Washington, DC 20024 ------- Re: Need a little advice.... Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 6:15 pm ((PDT)) These are all opinions, and we all have at least one, mostly that do NOT agree with anyone else's. I have a mill with a 4 x 18 table, and a useful travel of about 12". It is a horizontal mill, which I have a (pain in the tusch) vertical head for. It does what I want. If you want automotive stuff done on your mill, you may be best off to get something quite a bit bigger, at least twice the length and width... A full 9 x 49 Bridgeport, or bigger, is more in line with automotive work, although if you do not want to deck heads etc, you can go smaller and get a Clausing or Rockwell, both "real" mills, capable of general purpose work, but far easier to move. Or a "short" Bridgeport. A mill/drill can be used, although it will be more of a pain, and will not offer anything much that a Clausing does not, and has features deleted relative to a Clausing or similar, most importantly the "knee", forcing a re-alignment for any vertical movement of the head. Your choice.... How big do you expect your parts to be? Important features..... 1) Daylight..... how big a part can you put under the head including tooling, boring heads etc, and still be able to move the table? 2) Actual table travel lengthwise and widthwise... how far can a part on the table be moved? 3) Useful travel lengthwise and width wise ...how long is the space between the leftmost point on the table that can be brought under the cutter, and the rightmost similar point? Or the equivalent for in and out movement? 4) How much travel is there on the quill? This affects how far you can bore a cylinder, etc. JT ------- Re: Need a little advice.... Posted by: "dws" dwshelfx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:57 pm ((PDT)) > These are all opinions, and we all have at least one, mostly that > do NOT agree with anyone else's. We can agree on that. The one thing I'd like to restate from my earlier opinion: > > A small (human movable) lathe is far more broadly useful than a small > > mill. What I was trying to say here is that a smaller lathe can do pretty much what a big lathe can do (on reasonably sized parts), where a small mill really suffers compared to a real mill. I'd also add that a non-real lathe (something such as a lathe chuck with an R8 shank on a mill) doesn't do any better. Most of us need both. When we only have one, we're tempted to invest time, energy and money into figuring out inferior solutions. ("hey, see my mill? It mills!"). ------- Re: Need a little advice.... Posted by: "Bill G" billgonzox~xxyahoo.ca Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:37 pm ((PDT)) Agreed, I have a lathe and yes I find it very useful but there are still projects that involve a mill and that's why I've been looking. I agree that a small mill has its limitations but unfortunately we can't have everything. I'll keep my eyes and ears open and ask you gentleman for advice when I get close to buying something. Bill ------- Re: Need a little advice.... Posted by: "gene isley" gene_isley_7x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:32 pm ((PDT)) I have been watching the posting on Mills. I have been trying to make a decision on buying a small bench top mill or a milling attachment for my 6 or 12 inch craftsman lathe. I am not going to do a lot of mill work and do not have a lot of shop room. One of the concerns I have about the lathe mill attachments are they rigid enough and are any of them out there worth anything. The mill work I will be doing is making small locks for muzzle loading rifles and other small mill work. I appreciate any input from the group. Thank to the group for all of the good information that is being posted. Gene ------- Re: Need a little advice.... Posted by: "wa5cabx~xxcs.com" Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:03 pm ((PDT)) Buy a small mill if you can. The milling attachment for the 12" does work and I've used mine quite a bit. But its main limitation as supplied is part holding. You can improve this if you have one of the Atlas (or Craftsman) X-Y vises or can acquire the table for it which was also sold separately and called a boring table. But the main aggravation, if you can hold the part that you want to work on, is that every time you mount the attachment on the lathe, you have to indicate it in on two axes. Robert D. ------- NOTE TO FILE: I rarely put a single conversation into more than one file, however the following one is full of comments and tips on both lathes and mills; so I put a copy in both Mill Comparisons and Lathe Comparisons. ------- Why not a Taig workshop? [taigtools] Posted by: "valkcapt" valkcaptx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:52 pm ((PDT)) I'm a newbie to machining, and am dithering over what to do. I started out thinking I would buy a Taig mill and lathe. Then as I read different posts in different sites, I decided I needed a bigger setup. The common theme was "get the biggest you can get, because you'll soon outgrow your machines." So I started looking at various Asian Mini-lathes and mills, thinking I would buy one, and then the other, until I finally decided on Lathemaster 9x30 and a Lathemaster LM25L, and also looked at band saws and belt sanders, because several sites said I needed those. Supposedly the Lathemaster is higher quality and bigger than some of the other Asian machines I considered. Then I thought about CNC because I love computers, but became discouraged over all the comments about needing to learn manual machining first. Then I saw all the comments saying I should hold out for a used Bridgeport because all those Asian imports are crap. Then I looked at my garage and the limited space I have and thought, where are you going put all that stuff? And you can hardly drill a decent hole in wood -- what if you have absolutely no aptitude in machining, and what are you planning on making anyway? So I started downsizing my dreams of being a machinist to the point where I am back at Taig again. I had to relook at my goals. First, I want to learn how to make things with my own hands. Although I have used things that other people have made, I've never made anything significant involving craftsmanship. I've spent over 10 years flying jets as a naval aviator and as a Learjet Captain, 10 years as an Aerospace engineer involved with aircraft, Space Shuttle, and satellite projects, and 20 years as a lawyer, so I'm not afraid of trying something new. But I admire those of you that make practical or beautiful things out of scraps of metal, and I want to be just like you. But I don't know how passionate I will be until I do it. I know I am tired of killing trees and inking paper. Historically, when I start a hobby, I run with it. But that is only if I love it. Here, I just imagine I would love it, although it is a much greater depth of imagination that my desire to play the piano, which will never happen. Second, I want to make models and toys for grandkids as a means of learning machining skills. Third, I don't know where I am going from there. I would like to be a hobby gunsmith so I might put my hopefully acquired machining skills to work there. Or I might want to make knives, or pens, or chessmen or whatever. I see lots of project ideas and even specializations that look like fun, but who knows. So, I'm back at Taig. I'm thinking that I will either decide Taig is big enough or it isn't. And when it isn't, I can buy a bigger set up then. And since this is forum with a lot of Taig users, I thought I'd ask this question. Will I regret setting up shop with the Taig to start with, and if so, why? And if you are a Taig user that found yourself size-limited, how long did that take, and do you regret starting at the micro level? And finally, if you were trying to just learn basic machining skills, what projects would you consider starting with? If you read this far, thank you. I look forward to reading your comments. ------- Re: Why not a Taig workshop? Posted by: "Yi Yao" yix~xxyyao.ca Date: Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:57 pm ((PDT)) Hi there, I started like you and now having the benefit of hindsight, here's what I have to say. Long story, but addresses most of your concerns. My first machines was a Sherline 2000 mill and 4400 lathe in their "ultimate" package. I bought it second hand from someone who was giving up. At the time, it was a lot of money to be spending on a hobby and I wasn't sure if it was the right thing to do. It turned out to be, in my opinion, a very good way to start. Here's why. As a beginner, I had no idea what to do. I made a lot of mistakes and didn't know how to do something if there wasn't a tool for it. The Sherline package came with a lot of tools and thus, it was a great starting point for me to try "everything". A while later, I wanted a bigger machine and try this CNC thing. I got myself a CNC capable Taig mill. I spent the next few months making tools for it (fly cutter, slitting saw arbor, work holding fixtures, etc). I had to do this because where I was (Canada) I couldn't buy these accessories easily. Had I started this way, I would have been so lost and might have given up. Building your own tools is a great learning experience. For a green beginner though, I think it would be better to put it off for a later date. I also strongly suggest you use a manual machine before doing CNC work. I have seen so many people starting off on CNC and not having a good concept of feed and speeds. In the end, they just give up and cut foam or wax with carbide. Having a manual machine gives you a much more tactile feel for things which is incredibly useful for having a productive CNC experience. I upgraded to my Taig mill partially because I needed the size upgrade. I'm gonna tell you upfront, I felt size limited. I soon realized that I needed a larger lathe. And so, I got myself a Myford ML7, a classic English machine. By the sounds of it, the Lathemaster 9x30 is just a bit bigger than my ML7. Same story as before, I spent quite a bit of time tooling up this lathe because the accessories were so darn expensive. Between the ML7 and the Taig, I've been OK for ever job that I've come across so far. Most of the work I do is smaller than 8" in diamter (lathe) or 8" x 6" from the top (mill). After a while, I got myself a Taig lathe. Why downgrade in size? In a way, its easier to do super accurate small stuff on a small lathe than a bigger one. I can't turn those 8" plates on it, but its sure easy to make 0.05" end caps on it. And wow, what a great design for precision miniature turning. I really don't want to start a war over this. I think on average, Taig tools are most cost effective. If I had to mentor myself from a few years back, I would have told myself to get a Taig lathe and mill with many of the attachments, assuming I can buy it all from where I live. The quality you get is really good and Cliff and his crew really put some serious thought in the design of everything. I think for a beginner who needs to taste the water, this is a really good starting point. I don't think I would have been as productive on a bigger, expensive lathe if I didn't make all those mistakes in the beginning on a smaller one where the stakes are lower. I don't think I would have enjoyed it all that much if I wasn't able to do anything because I didn't have the tools on hand or knew how to make them. By the sounds of it, you wouldn't be in a pinch to equip yourself with some decent tooling. You also have probably enough stick-to-it-iveness to see it through. ;) In the beginning, I would visit various websites of hobby machinists and watch their Youtube videos. It was really inspirational. After a while, you will start making things that you saw other people make. Then it becomes really cool! Now, to directly answer your questions: Q: Will I regret setting up shop with the Taig to start with, and if so, why? A: Its hard to imagine you regretting it. Just get some tools to get started with. Q: And if you are a Taig user that found yourself size-limited, how long did that take, and do you regret starting at the micro level? A: It took a few months to figure out how to get things started. Soon, after I wanted to do bigger things and found myself size limited. No, I don't regret starting at the micro level at all. The size and cost was perfect for making all those stupid mistakes. Best part about it is, you can tuck everything away if you don't need it. Q: And finally, if you were trying to just learn basic machining skills, what projects would you consider starting with? A: Turn and face some metal on a lathe! In summary: - - get tooling if you can afford it - - Taig machines are good value for beginners - - try manual machining before CNC - - size is important and depends on your application. I am sure this echos a lot of other things you've read so far. I hope you make the jump soon! Cheers, Yi ------- Re: Why not a Taig workshop? Posted by: "Paul J. Ste. Marie" taigx~xxste-marie.org Date: Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:04 pm ((PDT)) On 3/24/2013 9:57 PM, Yi Yao wrote: > Q: And finally, if you were trying to just learn basic machining > skills, what projects would you consider starting with? > A: Turn and face some metal on a lathe! Harold Hill has a couple of books on lathe and mill projects designed for beginners that produce a range of useful tools. Look for the Workshop Practice Series on Amazon. I highly recommend them. You'll get a very good appreciation for how to align your machines and get accurate results. ------- Re: Why not a Taig workshop? Posted by: "pe3hmp" pe3hmpx~xxhotmail.com Date: Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:14 pm ((PDT)) I doubt that you will ever regret buying a taig, altough it looks small you can do a lot of things with it, especially if you want to learn things; it is not expensive and not huge that means if something goes wrong, there are not many pounds of machinery turning and having momentum. And if you want to have a bigger machine you probably keep the taig for making small things because the taig is so pleasant to use. But remember you are asking on a taig group here so I doubt that there will be any messages of people who not like taig; and you are lucky to find this group; you will find many people who make the most amazing things on their taig. Mark from The Netherlands ------- Re: Why not a Taig workshop? Posted by: "Shawn Woolley" shawnwoolleyx~xxmac.com Date: Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:17 pm ((PDT)) You're not wrong in what you're thinking but you're missing the key question: how big of a turning will you typically work on? It all depends on what you want to build. I'm an artist and a jeweler so I have it made. I know everything I'm going to use is going to be small or at least small parts put together. I make large pieces but most of my turning and milled work is of a size that easily works in the Taig world. I also read and heard all the same things you have and I bought into it also and I bought a very nice South Bend 9 inch lathe from the 40's; it's amazing and cost almost as much to ship as it did to buy. Then I got to spend almost the same amount again to completely rebuild it and fully tool it and now I use it about two maybe three times a month and 90% of those are either something that I probably could do on a Taig or honestly a threaded part that I could do just as easily with a tap and die set. My production shop is 100% Taig though. I have two lathes and two mills, one which runs on CNC and the other I left manual because a lot of time as a artist I'm not worried about precision. I just want it to look good so I enjoy the shaping aspect of running a manual system. If I had to give up a machine it wouldn't be the Taig, it's a workhorse and I'm more than happy with what it can do and the quality it turns out. Many people, especially people that use tools, are very opinionated as to what is acceptable and what is not. I have had many people ask me what my error rate on a Taig is? And mostly I don't know; it's more than close enough for me that's for sure. But I'm not building complicated motors or even tools that need to be perfect. I don't even build my own tooling, which is looked down on in many machine work circles but it just doesn't make sense to me. Sure it may increase my skill or knowledge but in the time that it takes to do it, I can work on sellable products that will pay for the tooling usually several times over. So I'm not a machinist I guess, but I can live with that; what I am is an artist that uses these tools to shape metal and that's really all I was after to begin with. So you've done the research, now quit torturing yourself and get cutting. If your hobby grows, so can the tooling, and there's always a place in any shop for a small flexible and easy to operate tool like the Taig models. good luck ------- Re: Why not a Taig workshop? Posted by: "Jeffrey Birt" birt_jx~xxsoigeneris.com Date: Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:23 am ((PDT)) When talking with someone first getting started one of the first questions I ask is "What sort of things will you be making?". It does not matter how great a machine tool is if it is not suited for the job at hand. The question of the size of the tool is an appropriate one. Just as with any tool, say a hammer, one size does not fit all tasks. The two most used hammers in my tool box are a 16oz claw hammer and 20oz ball peen. I also own a sledge hammer which is very useful on occasion but having a BFH does not replace my need for the smaller hammers, i.e. I'm not going to do any framing with a 10# sledge hammer. For most guys wanting to get into the 'hobbyist' sized things the Taig is a good size. It has a decent work envelope and is not too large. It is also made very well, as others have said many of the import machines are more like a kit as you have to rebuild the whole thing to makes something that works decent. Even with larger machines at my disposal the Taig is still what I turn too most. Small jobs are hard to do on big, heavy machines. So, if the Taig will meet your work envelope requirements it comes down to which machine(s) to get. On the lathe side of things I would whole- heartedly recommend getting the power feed option. The accessories you purchase will in large part be determined by what sort of work you will want to do. The drilling tail stock, drill chuck, bit set, etc. are commonly used things that are universally useful. On the mill, since you want to use it manually at first I would suggest getting the CNC Ready mill and adding hand cranks. This gives you the stepper couplers and better spindle motor so when you are ready to go to CNC you just need to get a controller package. In the long run you will save money over buying the CNC upgrade parts down the road. I have had many customers go this route. I hope that is of some help, Jeff Birt Soigeneris.com ------- Re: Why not a Taig workshop? Posted by: "Jim Stoll" jim_stollx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:10 am ((PDT)) Valkapt - you've clearly already gotten a whole lot of very good info and advice on this already, but I'll add my own .02. (And I'll do my best to keep it short, though that can be hard when talking about my beloved little machine... :-) [Note below that all opinions are just that - opinions, based on my personal experience - others mileage may vary, and no offense is meant to anyone on anything :-) I was in a situation similar to yours several years ago. I wanted to get into machining (CNC, in particular), but had no real machining experience (I'd owned and used a drill press previously, but that was it. :o), and didn't really know what to purchase. My budget was different than yours seems to be :-), so I was really limited to the micro machine line-up. I liked the look and finish of the Sherline machines, but as fortunate enough to meet someone who had the Sherlines, and while they are beautiful little machines, and can be used effectively, I decided that the Taig was a better fit for me. (Based on size, rigidity, power, cost of tooling, etc) I ordered the Taig 2019 CNC-ready mill (extended X-axis travel of 12" total), and hooked it up with relatively inexpensive Xylotex controllers, driven by the open source EMC2 software which runs on Linux. I also purchased a CAD/CAM package (Dolphin PartMaster) at the time. I didn't buy a whole lot of tooling to start with. I did not buy a lathe at the time, as the mill was what I really needed. (I subsequently bought a lathe with money earned from using the mill. :-) My initial experience went from the thrill of receiving everything and getting it all setup, to the fun of designing parts in the CAD/CAM package, to subsequent frustration and despondence of not having my gorgeously-designed parts magically resolve from the blocks of metal that I was clamping down to the mill. I actually pretty much gave up on it for a year or so, after much destroyed tools, materials, patience, etc, and I now attribute this almost entirely to a lack of knowledge of general machining concepts and practices. (Additionally, while EMC is working great for me now, there was a very high level of frustration with getting that all setup and running well - and I'm a professional computer geek, albeit a software person vs a hardware or operating system person...) I have come to absolutely love my Taig mill. It is very capable, ridiculously reliable, and when used within the constraints of its capabilities, can turn out all manner of fun and amazing things. I have only run into size limitations on 2-3 occasions, and in all cases, have been able to modify how I was doing something, or order to accomodate the size restrictions. (If I could change one thing, it would be the Y axis travel, though there are a few articles and one or more kits out there for extending Y, though they seem to be a the cost of some Z rigidity.) Very strong advantages of the smaller mill include: - reduced tooling costs (generally - though there is a limited market for smaller tools, so the smaller tools are sometimes proportionally higher- priced than bigger tools) - reduced danger/pucker factor - when stuff goes bad, it usually results in just stalling the motor and/or toasting a drive belt, and maybe breaking smaller tools, but I have yet to do any real damage to the mill itself, and I've done a few spectacularly stupid/carless things (in hindsight :-) that could have caused non-trivial damage to my mill or myself with a larger and more powerful setup. (That having been said, it would not be hard to remove a finger with something even as small as the Taig, or to do permanent damage to a hand, eye, etc - these things are mean-powerful dangerous, even at the smaller sizes.) - high spindle speeds - I do some engraving on some of my projects/ products, which uses a teeny V-bit running at 10k RPM - very few larger machines will run at that speed, which would make the engraving either impossible, or else interminably slow. Even for non-engraving operations though, the higher spindle speeds really help when using smaller tooling. - space requirements - I have my mill sitting on a custom-made base (just made out of bathroom counter type of material), which sits on top of an old bathroom sink cabinet - it takes up approx 4' by 2' of space in my little basement workshop (oh yeah, and I keep it and run it in my basement, while my wife and kids sleep one or two floors above, and it's never a problem noise-wise) It also runs on straight 110v power, and never causes the lights to dim or flicker when I start it up. :-) - great community- and vendor-level support - I ordered my mill from Nick Carter, who has provided excellent support and service over the years. I have heard great things about other Taig vendors, as well - the Taig community truly is a community, and I have benefitted immensely from it. - they're just plain freaking fun - they're dangerous enough to require some respect, but using them is not a fear-inducing experience - it's fun (ok, the one possible exception being flycutting - I still sometimes get a little nervous when flycutting....) Based on my experience, I'd recommend not expecting too much from the CNC side of things too fast, if you go the CNC route. I had completely unrealistic expectations (based on machine rigidity/power, based on my complete lack of machining knowledge/experience, etc). If you were able to do some learning in a manual mode, that would be ideal, but I wouldn't caution you to not go CNC to start with, if that is your interest - just start simple and small (facing things, doing some very basic 2D and 2.5D type of work, using plastics and good-quality aluminum to start with (don't mess with hardware store aluminum - it's made in a coffee-cup forge in the bowels of Hell, and will only bring you sadness and despair! :-) Definitely get a good screwless vise (it actually has a screw, go figure ... :-), and a variety of clamping steps/blocks/straps/etc. Get a good variety of smaller tooling (5/16" and below). Get a selection of UHMW plastic and some thin'ish 6061 aluminum (onlinemetals has a good selection and ships fast, at reasonable prices). Get the full set of collets. Get extra belts. Get a good digital caliper and both dial and dial test indicators, along with a jointed mounting arm for them. Get the GWizard calculator from Bob Warfield at CNCCookbook.com (the single- greatest source of education and enlightenment that I've found hands- down, in terms of selecting feeds and speeds that work, which turns out to be about 75% of the overall battle). If you go CNC, get CamBam - it's got everything you need for a long time, and none of the stuff you don't. Oh, and keep TapMagic and A9 on-hand at all times - a little squirt on the appropriate material makes a world of difference! (TapMagic for steel, A9 for alu). I might recommend trying Mach vs EMC, if you're not a computer/hardware/operating-system enthusiast - again, if you choose to go the CNC route. (Similarly, as much help as Jeff was with the Xylotex drivers, I eventually switched to Gecko drivers when the Xylotex finally died, and it was a whole world of difference - I'd go w/ Gecko right from the start, if you do CNC.) Oh, get one of those lighted magnifying glasses on a flexible arm, too - if you don't have eagle-like vision, they really help with the smaller tools and tasks. (You might as well setup a direct-deposit arrangement with littlemachineshop.com, while you're at it... :-) As regards a lathe, I ended up going with a Chinese 7X16 (the MicroMark model). I'd seen a Taig lathe, and while it is a true work of miniature machining art, it didn't have the capacity for some basic things that I needed to do. I've been very satisfied with the 7x16 lathe. (The variable-speed brushless DC motor and the extra bed length are really, really nice features.) FWIW, as a caveat, I eventually went to a Sherline DC motor on my Taig mill - just much more convenient to be able to 'tune' speeds while running, and have put an air spring on the Z column, which has eliminated some minor backlash issues that I was having on Z sometimes (I mill printed circuit boards, among my other projects, and a few .0001's makes a big difference). I'd love to stiffen the Z column up a teeny bit more, but that's really just a matter of needing to be more patient with the mill when taking cuts with larger tooling. The Taig is not perfect, but IMHO, it's about as close to perfect as one can get without having to devote an entire building and a good chunk of one's net worth to their hobby. :-) I don't regret going with the Taig in the least. (I had an opportunity recently to get a PCNC 1100, which is still sort of my dream machine, and opted to just upgrade to the Sherline motor and install the air spring - the Taig at its price just makes sense for me, while the PCNC 1100 at its price, totally did not make sense for what I use my mill for.) I hope you end up with the machines that make the most sense for you, and that you get many years of enjoyment out of them. Machining is an amazingly engrossing, enjoyable and enriching hobby, and one of those things that every time you think you've outdone yourself, you find something a little bit more awesome to do the next time. :-) Jim ------- Re: Why not a Taig workshop? Posted by: "Rupert" rwenig2x~xxxplornet.com Date: Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:16 pm ((PDT)) Jim, Can you tell us more about the air spring? maybe post a picture or two? Rupert ------- Re: Why not a Taig workshop? Posted by: "Jim Stoll" jim_stollx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:11 pm ((PDT)) Actually, a few folks have asking to see pictures of this, so I just put some stuff up. (This is my first-ever blog post, so don't expect too much... :o) http://12amtools.blogspot.com/2013/03/taig-mill-z-axis-air-spring-set up.html This setup has been working out really well for me - I've essentially got zero backlash on Z now, and no vertical play whatsoever. Jim ------- Re: Why not a Taig workshop? Posted by: "Stan Stocker" skstockerx~xxcomcast.net Date: Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:50 pm ((PDT)) Greetings; If the work you wish to do will fit in the envelope of the Taig machines they are great little machines. I do full time clock and watch restoration and repair. I have 2 Taig lathes, a Sherline lathe, a Sherline mill, an SB 9 inch lathe, a good size mill drill (Grizzly G1006 old enough to be from Taiwan), and some other assorted toys. I use Taig and Sherline stuff everyday, glad to have both, each one is better at some things. If the majority of your work will be stretching the capabilities of these machines get larger (particularly the mill). Small machines do take somewhat small cuts, and doing a big job on a small machine can be frustrating, particularly if you are working with steel. The upside is you can shove around or pick up a small mill alone or with a friend :-) The Taig lathe is a great deal, but before buying the mill take a look at the size of machines you can get from folks like Grizzly. Take a peek at the G0704. For not too much more than a Taig mill you get some seriously greater mass, big table, lots more capacity, and an R8 spindle. You can do small work on a larger machine if the machine is tight, but if you need 18 inches of travel on a small machine you get to do some creative fixturing. Mills cost more than lathes, and I think that folks who buy small lathes don't always understand just how little work room is left once you start putting vises and angle blocks and such on a small mill table. My son is a gunsmith, I've done a bit too. I would not consider these machines to be up for most of the tasks involved if you are doing rifle work, although I have seen AR15 receiver forgings and 1911 frames being machined on Taig CNC mills. Even using aluminum, the run time is fairly long, you just can't hog huge amounts even with flood coolant on smaller machines. You didn't mention where you live, if you're near the Shenandoah Valley in Virginia I'm between Luray and Front Royal, little place called Bentonville. You could drop in and play with the machines. Take care, Stan ------- Re: Why not a Taig workshop? Posted by: "rickelwell" yaahoox~xxelwell.org Date: Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:04 am ((PDT)) I love my little Taig setup. On Friday night I can bring it with me (inside my car) to Florida, make 50 pieces over the weekend and have it back home come Monday morning. It's relocatable. ------- Re: Why not a Taig workshop? Posted by: "taig19904me" richlee20205x~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:05 am ((PDT)) "Will I regret setting up shop with the Taig to start with?" Technically speaking, this question can not be answered by anyone but you, and only if it happens. Great little machine to start with. I bought mine for $107 in 1992 or so, it was 1/2 the price of a Sherline at the time, and I had no space to speak of (in an AF dorm at Norton AFB, Cal.). After 20 years, I still use it regularly. "And if you are a Taig user that found yourself size-limited, how long did that take, and do you regret starting at the micro level?" About 2 years and not at all. I would suggest "THE HOME MACHINIST HANDBOOK" by Doug Briney. It's all Sherline but still good stuff. Also "machine shop PROJECTS" South Bend Lathe Works reprinted by Lindsay Publications Inc. :) Running an Engine Lathe by Fred Colvin The Starrett Book for Student Machinists all good stuff Maynard. :) Richlee ------- Re: Why not a Taig workshop? Posted by: "Misc Clark" clark.cone4x~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:41 am ((PDT)) [Yi's 24 march message above] Well put, Yi...thanks for the inspiration! What tools would you recommend? Building right off the bat (with the Taig)... did you do any threading or indexing (equi-spaced holes around a circle) on your Taig? Clark Cone - Taig newbie ------- Re: Why not a Taig workshop? Posted by: "Yi Yao" yix~xxyyao.ca Date: Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:05 pm ((PDT)) Hi Clark, Haha, no, I am not inspirational. Dean, John Bentley, Alan Pinkus, to name a few, are inspirational. I don't consider myself inspirational, at least not yet. Take a look at Dean's site: http://www.deansphotographica.com/machining/projects/projects.html Personally, I found the boring bar holder and tailstock indicator holder to be most relevant to my regular use. One of these days, I know I want to try and make my own boring head or rotary table. I do all my single point threading on my Myford, so I didn't have a leadscrew or anything like that on my Taig. As for indexing, I usually turn the part on a lathe and clamp it down on my Taig CNC mill and use the computer to spot all the bolt hole patterns. Sorry, I couldn't offer a useful answer here. Most of the Taig accessories that I built were for my mill. Very ironic, but the first thing I built for my CNC mill was a set of manual handles that I could install on the end of the double shaft stepper motors. I can't imagine living without fly cutters, so I made that next. Please note, for a right handed spindle (like most spindles), you need a left handed single point cutter to do fly cutting. If you make your own fly cutter, remember to put the slot for the tool on the correct side of centre. The first one I made was wrong and it wasn't obvious until I tried to use it. Of course, you probably want slitting saw arbour, dovetail cutter, and every other tool you will eventually use. I haven't gotten around to documenting everything, but I did a small write up on my dovetail cutter: http://yyao.ca/projects/indexable_dovetail_cutter/ The turning was done on my Myford, because I didn't have a Taig lathe at the time, but there's no reason why you can't use a Taig to do it. I made a QCTP after that. No write up available for that yet. But that was the reason for making the dovetail cutter. All that was done with the mill in manual mode. No CNC stuff. Cheers, Yi ------- Re: Why not a Taig workshop? Posted by: "James Eckman" ronin_engineerx~xxcomcast.net Date: Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:39 am ((PDT)) If your tight on space, the Taig/Sherline sized lathes are awesome. For several years my work area was a 2'x4' bench for everything. While out of date, some info here. http://roninengineer.com/index.php/metalworking Jim ------- NOTE TO FILE: Jim has some very useful tips on the above site. ------- Sealey Small Milling Machines [myfordlathes] Posted by: "Stephen Barnfield" stevebarnfieldx~xxhotmail.com Date: Sun Sep 8, 2013 4:32 pm ((PDT)) Hello all, Now that I have my new to me Super 7 installed and more or less dated -- for which many thanks to those who could give me the info, I'm looking at buying a small milling machine. Looking at Google to assess prices etc. it is very clear that Sealey who seem to have quite a diverse company supplying all sorts things, not just machines, are having a clearance on their (Chinese?) small milling machine serial sm2502, with a lot of distributors selling these at various prices ranging from £759.00 to over £1100. I've thinking of buying a small milling machine to complement my Taylor and Hobson profile miller and this seems to fit the bill as it were. My question and what I'm leading up to, is has anyone on the group had any experience with one of these m/c's in particular or of Sealey in general. I'd be grateful for any advice from those who know a lot more about these things than I do. I don't expect the machine to be all singing and dancing as I'm only a modeller in 0 Gauge and Gauge 1 building mostly scratchbuilt locomotives which are electrically driven and not even steam. I've used the Taylor and Hobson mill for light milling so I do have an idea of what I'm doing but don't want anything that is inaccurate or likely to breakdown as soon as it is out of warranty. One of the cheapest sites is only just up the road from where I live so I can easily have a look at one but before I do would as a relative dumbo about these things welcome any advice from your collective minds. Many thanks Stephen Barnfield ------- Re: Sealey Small Milling Machines Posted by: "iwhitex~xxrogers.com" iwhitex~xxrogers.com Date: Sun Sep 8, 2013 5:06 pm ((PDT)) Stephen, You need both a lathe and a mill in your shop, the only discussion comes from which should come first. The Sealey SM2502 is made in China as the Sieg X2 and has thousands of posts on the web discussing its strong points and its weaknesses. I have one but I bought mine brand new for $400 which included a full set of Chinese mystery collets and some other stuff, so UK pricing does not impress me much. Everyone will tell you that, out of the box, it needs to be stripped and cleaned of the grease that is supposed to protect it in storage, then re-assembled carefully to try and produce some semblance of accuracy. Accuracy will be a life long challenge with this machine. It is a very light duty cheap device that serves an excellent purpose. It is not even close to the capabilities of a Super 7 from a consistency and accuracy perspective. The web discussions surround two major areas ? beefing up the connection between the column and the base in order to reduce vibrations and to keep it trammed. Secondly a huge variety of schemes to try and increase the Y travel which is effectively 3 3/4" after you put some swarf protection in place. That is very small. It is a great machine to start with and is a good companion to the Sieg C2 lathe, however you have gone up a notch with the lathe and you might think about the same approach for a mill. ------- Re: Sealey Small Milling Machines Posted by: "Peter Dobson" peterdx~xxmodelrail.net Date: Mon Sep 9, 2013 12:50 am ((PDT)) Stephen. If you can wait for a few weeks before making a decision then you could, maybe even should, pay a visit to the Midlands Model Engineering Show details of which are to be found at: http://www.meridienneexhibitions.co.uk/our-events-detail.php?id=0000000007 You could also have a look at the following: http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk They are usually at the show as well and are considered by some as the experts on Sieg machines -- but a quick scan of the details does not list them as attending. Knowing your location I am certain a day visit to the show is quite possible as is a visit to Arceurotrade. regards Peter Dobson ------- Re: Sealey Small Milling Machines Posted by: "John" johnx~xxstevenson-engineers.co.uk Date: Mon Sep 9, 2013 11:53 pm ((PDT)) Arceurotrade no longer do any shows and concentrate on their web sales. John S. ------- Re: Sealey Small Milling Machines Posted by: "Andrew Curl" methuselahx~xxntlworld.com Date: Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:54 am ((PDT)) Stephen, to be perfectly honest, I wouldn't touch a Sealey machine with someone else's bargepole. Millers of this type seldom live up to expectations, and unless you would consider remanufacturing it as soon as you get it, and with the second-hand market being a bit depressed at the moment, for what you write of spending, a BCA jig borer, or especially if you have a little more space, an Elliot 00 universal miller are both possibilities. You will be far happier with either. There is nothing worse than getting stuck with a machine that needs a refit every time you wish to do even the most trivial of jobs. Andrew ------- Atlas Mill limitations?? [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: nilrodsx~xxyahoo.com nilrods Date: Mon Apr 7, 2014 7:05 am ((PDT)) First time poster here. Let me preface my comments with the fact that I use a flashcut CNC (basically an upgraded sherline with A2Z CNC table and column) mill today and also have a Hardinge DV-59 in the lathe dept primarily for hobby use. I picked up some Atlas Milling machine parts for another project (base and knee assembly) and was quite surprised that both of those seemed well built for the size of machine. I had read many what I would consider bad reviews online about the Atlas milling machine so was not expecting much other than it was cast iron. The response was usually like "you will not be happy" and "lots of zamak sp?? parts that will crumble". While I do understand it is not a Bridgeport, but not everyone wants a 2500 lb beast lying around for the occasional hobby use. I would never want to attempt to put a Bridgeport in my basement or even worse try to get out. So my question is for the owners that use them regularly, what are the limiting factors for the atlas milling machine when used within their work envelope? Is it the spindle, is the motor under powered or the gearing system prone to issues? Is the open base casting too flexible and causes chatter? I have milled steel on my small flashcut mill, albeit at a small DOC and feed, I find it hard to believe that a machine of this size could not also do that. Since not many posts on the web usually give many facts to support their conclusions, from what I have read, just looking for some objective viewpoints from folks familiar with the mill. Thanks ------- Re: Atlas Mill limitations?? Posted by: jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net jtiers Date: Mon Apr 7, 2014 8:21 pm ((PDT)) The major limitation of the Atlas mill is that it is a horizontal mill. Such a mill is quite good for many things, but tends to get an "Oh" and glazed-over eyes as the person looking for a mill quickly moves onward to the next machine being offered for sale. There was also a vertical Atlas mill, a chinese import that was advertised for a couple of months many years ago.... It seems to have very quickly been discontinued, assuming it was ever actually for sale. Saw an advertisement one month in Home Shop machinist, end of story. Jerry ------- Re: Atlas Mill limitations?? Posted by: "Carvel Webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za cwlathes Date: Mon Apr 7, 2014 11:27 pm ((PDT)) I have an MFC version which has given me many years of satisfactory service. I am not aware of the ‘bad press’ you allude to, other than the usual gripe that we have for some of the ZAMAK fittings disintegrating – which applies to both the lathes and the mill – and is not consistent. Most of my Zamak parts fortunately show no signs of the dreaded ‘Zinc pest‘ but others have been less lucky . With the addition of the optional support bracket from the front of the knee to the end of the overarm, the machine is remarkably solid and rigid for its size, and capable of punching way above its weight . Only limitations are the fact that it is a horizontal mill which some will find restrictive if used to a Bridgeport type configuration, and the drive belt is a non-standard size and requires a bit of innovation at replacement time, but otherwise it can be very useful. Regards, Carvel ------- Re: Atlas Mill limitations?? Posted by: "Richard Marchi" rfmarchix~xxaol.com Date: Tue Apr 8, 2014 5:11 am ((PDT)) I don't have an Atlas, but use a Burke #4 horizontal mill. It's a similar capacity and probably sturdier construction. One of the criticisms of horizontal mills is that they are awkward to use for someone raised with vertical machines. It takes a bit of getting used to, but I like it well enough that I have stopped lusting after a Bridgeport. Richard Marchi ------- Re: Atlas Mill limitations?? Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com jmelson2 Date: Tue Apr 8, 2014 9:27 am ((PDT)) It depends totally on the work you do. I do a lot of custom instrument panels and such stuff. A vertical mill is great for machining all over a large sheet that covers much of the table. A horizontal mill would have difficulty with that, and would need a vertical mounting device like a big angle plate to hold the part. There are other tasks where a horizontal machine is great, and the ability to hold the far end of the arbor makes a great improvement in stiffness. Jon -------- Re: Atlas Mill limitations?? Posted by: rmdaniels47x~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Apr 8, 2014 9:36 am ((PDT)) I've only had my Atlas MFC for about 6 months but find it to be a very capable machine if you keep in mind the size of the machine and therefore its limitations. Soon after acquiring my machine I completely stripped it down for cleanup, lube and adjustment. I was impressed also with the quality of the construction of this machine for its size. There are some Zamak parts but none in the areas that affect the ability of the machine to cut metal and maintain accuracy. I feel the biggest limitation of this machine is the fact that because of the small table size and cross slide size it means the Gibs are fairly close together. That means that when the machine is cutting it has a great leverage advantage over these gibs, so if there is any play in the gibs it will allow the machine to chatter. This is also compounded when you add a swivel vise on top of the table. That increases the leverage factor the cutter has over the narrow gib spacing and enhances the possibility for chatter to occur. The bottom line is that you need to keep the gibs properly adjusted (maybe a little tighter than on other machines), use the slide "locks" on all movable parts that aren't being used to make the cut, and take lighter cuts than you would on larger machines. Just my two chips worth. Ray ------- Re: Atlas Mill limitations?? Posted by: nilrodsx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Apr 8, 2014 9:41 am ((PDT)) Good comments. I am aware it is a horizontal mill and that they may not be as utilitarian an a vertical mill. But of course, there are things that a horizontal excels and performs much easier than the vertical. I am glad to hear that it is definitely usable for work. I was just so surprised how many negative comments I saw, that never seemed to really support specifically why. As for the question of the negative internet posts try googling is atlas milling machine any good. Read some of the posts from forums. Almost every post says don't get the atlas, rather if you want a horizontal mill buy a burke, hardinge, or any number of others otherwise get a bridgeport. So most comments were not necessarily saying why not to get the atlas. The ones I saw mentioned are probably more substantial, which can help in milling but that is also like comparing apples and oranges. Thanks ------- Re: Atlas Mill limitations?? Posted by: halbert____1x~xxmsn.com halbert_1_1 Date: Tue Apr 8, 2014 10:21 am ((PDT)) There is a group that deals more with the mill: Atlasshaperandmilling https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Atlasshaperandmillingmac hineusersgroup/info They have a great deal of information: under photos you can see my mill and mods made to it MFC with x and y dro and mfc vert mill my way these are just a few thing that can be done there are many more posts with lots of info. overall I am very happy with the performance of my mfc. both vert and horz. modes ------- Re: Atlas Mill limitations?? Posted by: "Kevin Gibson" k3030aix~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Apr 8, 2014 10:30 am ((PDT)) Most Atlas equip with Zamak gears are good to go. On my lathe I see this as a total non issue. Now maybe if everything I did was super heavy with back gears, I could stand a chance of the gearing becoming an issue. But that would just be abuse, and abuse will mess up lot's of stuff. So I just don't really give it a single thought about the Zamak gears. Kevin ------- Re: Atlas Mill limitations?? Posted by: wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net oldstudentmsgt Date: Wed Apr 9, 2014 2:45 am ((PDT)) >From my understanding (which may be flawed, as I have a Atlas MF, still >in pieces, and no experience using it) The Zamak gears are only a problem if you get gears that were made with a bit of lead in the alloy to increase fluidity. THEY have problems because the lead doesn't actually alloy, it separates the zinc & aluminum to form electrolytic cells. In the presence of moisture you get corrosion on the intergranular level, and gears that disintegrate. Properly made the alloy is as strong as cast iron, and quite a bit lighter, and easier to machine, while also being nearly as durable. Improperly made, it's every bit the crap most people seem to think it is. Most of my experience with the stuff is not in machine tools, but in die-cast carburetors for old cars. Two carbs stored under identical conditions, one good as new, and one crumbling to the touch after a couple of years. HTH! Bill in OKC ------- Re: Atlas Mill limitations?? Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Wed Apr 9, 2014 3:08 pm ((PDT)) That's about what I was going to say. Except that period sources that I've read only said that the zinc was either impure, not of sufficient purity, or contaminated. The contamination referred to may well have been lead. In any case, at this distance in time if anyone acquires a mill, lathe or shaper with all good Zamak parts, they will still be good parts when we all go to our rewards. Unless of course the operator crashes the machine in which case any parts failure is his or her fault, not the part's. :-) Now it is true that even as late as about 1972 Atlas designers used Zamak in places that it wasn't suited for. Apparently the company memory didn't quite last from the mid 1930's until 1972. But other than that, the Zamak issue is just something that Atlas bashers like to trot out and tell to people who don't know any better. Like the bad batches of parts from the 1940's, the information is contaminated. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: Atlas Mill limitations?? Posted by: jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net jtiers Date: Wed Apr 9, 2014 7:27 pm ((PDT)) I suppose the other issue is that it has a somewhat small work envelope, and IIRC has less clearance under the overarm than otehr similar sized mills. That latter is more of a limit than you might think at first, since the cutter diameter affects the depth of a cut. Jerry ------- Re: Atlas Mill limitations?? Posted by: anthrhodesx~xxaol.com Date: Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:26 pm ((PDT)) Jerry, let's see, 7/8" arbor, typical 2-1/2" OD horizontal mill cutter, just over 5/8" depth from the tips of the teeth to the spacer bushings. Do you consider this to be an inadequate depth of cut on a machine like the Atlas mill? A 1" arbor was also offered by Atlas and you can get 7/8", 1", and 1-1/4" arbors from tools4cheap which are specifically designed for the Atlas mill. The larger arbors commonly use larger OD cutters but I don'r know what the clearance is from the tips of the teeth to the spacers so I can't quote it. It's also true that as you increase the OD of the cutter the height of a work piece above the table will more limited if you want to be able to pass the cutter over the work piece without taking a cut. FYI, the maximum cutter OD which will pass under the 1-1/2" OD overarm is 4". Not certain at this point how much clearance above the table a 4" cutter would have with the table in its lowest position. Anthony Berkeley, Calif. ------- Re: Atlas Mill limitations?? Posted by: jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net jtiers Date: Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:02 pm ((PDT)) No need to be upset.... It's not a question of an "inadequate cut"..... the cut is whatever is needed, not what some bozo on the internet thinks you should do. And, a 4" clearance is pretty decent for that size of mill. I had actually thought it was less. But, there are other considerations..... So, you have 5/8 of cut available. Could be fine, depending on what you need to do. But the problems come up when the part being cut is big enough that it doesn't go in a vise. Now you have to use table clamps, and the height of the clamp plus the stud and nut to hold it down subtract from the cutter diameter, because the arbor has to clear them. So with that 5/8" clearance, you might be unable to take a cut more than 0.2" deep, or less. A 4" cutter is helpful, for sure. I can clear a bit more than that, about 6.5", but the biggest cutters I have are around 4", other than a couple of saws. But most of those take a 1" (the saws) or 1.25" (the wider cutters) arbor. The OD of the spacers is 1.75" for the 1.25 arbor, so even then, with a 1.25" arbor the exposed cutter is 1 1/8", less clamps, and for the 1" saws, about 1.25", again less clamp height. If you have, or rig up, a low height vise such as the ones that bolt into the table slots, using the table as the vise body, you can do better for parts where the cuts clear the vise jaws. Same with "Mitee-Bite clamps. The Mitee-Bite have the advantage that almost any cut that doesn't saw the part in two will clear them. Since I have a single central t-slot, I can't use them. I have several clamp bars that are cut-away so that there is only a part of them that rests on top of the work. That lowers the top, and therefore the nut and stud. One can go further and make clamps that not only are cut away so the hold-down part is thinner, but also the clamp is "joggled" down in such a way that all or most of the nut and stud are below the level of the clamp top. Obviously that depends on the material thickness, but presumably a deeper cut goes with thicker material. There are other work-arounds, but many of them use up table space, which is at a premium with small mills. So is table travel. Jerry ------- Taig vs sherline mill [TAIGTOOLS] Posted by: baboonhead11x~xxyahoo.com baboonhead11 Date: Mon Jan 26, 2015 8:55 pm ((PST)) Uh oh not this? I'm sure this was asked before long ago at least once. I don't have both machines to compare which is better. But I notice that sherline products are much more refined while Taig machines look very "rough" and seems to be put together with random bar stock with drilled holes here and there. The point is it functions, but not nearly as refined as sherline mills. From a technical perspective, the Taig mills look a lot stiffer. They also have beefier leadscrews. Instead of dovetails, they have some kind of diamond 'box way' kind of design going. Looks rigid. Ultimately, for people who has both machines or who have extensive use of both machines, and can freely admit to not having bias to their own machine, which machine is better and in which way and why? ------- Re: Taig vs sherline mill Posted by: "Lester Caine" lesterx~xxlsces.co.uk lscesuk Date: Tue Jan 27, 2015 12:45 am ((PST)) The new saddle casting on the Taig is much more 'refined', and the current base design is more rigid, but the main difference is that the Taig has a bigger working footprint than the Sherline. But for smaller parts, and something easier to move in and out of a cupboard then the Sherline is smaller and lighter. If one is looking for a CNC machine, then while the Sherline complete kit is functional and has enough power to drive the machine, a more powerful set of motors and driver would be of benefit. Just seen another post on the CNC list about upgrading a '24V system' to 48V with a Gecko driver, and even upgrading the Taig driver has advantages. Lester Caine - G8HFL Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ------- Re: Taig vs sherline mill Posted by: juangeltx~xxyahoo.com juangelt Date: Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:51 pm ((PST)) I have both a taig and a sherline. Try this: drill a 1/4 hole in aluminum at 1 fpm. You will see the taig drill a nice uneventful hole and you will see the sherline bend the entire z axis backwards in a shocking display of refined inadequacy. (I'd rather watch cher twerking, tbh.) Everywhere the sherline has a 1/4 20 screw, the taig has 1/2. Everywhere the sherline has a delrin gib, the taig has brass. Everywhere the sherline has powder coating for a bearing surface, taig has anodizing. There's really no comparison - it's all contrast. The sherline and taig are really aimed at and useful for different things. So choosing which you want is going to make you evaluate how much you want to show a machine to clueless folks and impress them with its refinement while you safely cut wax vs how much you want to get metal parts cut with precision and reliability. Sherline makes a great rotary table, though. I have that on my taig and i used the variable speed motor on the taig. The rest of the sherline just occupies space uselessly - but it sort of did that before i cannibalized it, though it was more of a monument to buyer's remorse before i salvaged the spindle and motor. Sherline is a toy; taig is real - just small. I think that's not an opinion but objectively substantiated any way you like. ------- Re: Taig vs sherline mill Posted by: "Jake Horky" jacob.horkyx~xxgmail.com jakehorky Date: Tue Jan 27, 2015 4:05 pm ((PST)) I don't have both, but I had a chance to play with a Sherline. I think the facts of what juangelt posts are true, but they are certainly mixed in with lots of opinion! The term "toy" is relative. My Taig is a toy compared to my Millrite, which is a toy compared to a Bridgeport, which is a toy compared to a Milwaukee horizontal, etc etc. If you only do small work, the Sherline has the advantage of being light enough to tuck away between projects. I often wish I could do that with my Taig. An OT observation about things being relative... I get a kick out of the east coast national news constantly expressing how "cold" it is there, which is a temp that looks silly to those in Chicago, and one that looks even sillier to those in the Twin Cities, and on and on... you get my drift... :) Jake ------- Re: Taig vs sherline mill Posted by: "Lester Caine" lesterx~xxlsces.co.uk lscesuk Date: Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:28 am ((PST)) ? ... Although with the Taig motor and spindle on it is a bit heavier, but certainly a number of my customers still have the machine bolted to the original 3/4" ply panel it used to be shipped on. (The 1/2" one used now is just not still enough :( ) And it moves between the kitchen table and a cupboard ... not sure if their wives have spotted that yet ;) Lester Caine - G8HFL Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ------- Re: Taig vs sherline mill Posted by: baboonhead11x~xxyahoo.com baboonhead11 Date: Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:17 am ((PST)) What I mean by 'refined' is just cosmetic. Sherline makes a prettier and better finished product. Taig makes, I dare say, rather uglier looking products. e,g, look at stepper motor blocks used on sherline and the taig. One is a complex feature with changing diameters like ac one while the other is literally just a tube. But it works. That's what matters. ------- Re: Taig vs sherline mill Posted by: baboonhead11x~xxyahoo.com baboonhead11 Date: Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:25 am ((PST)) Interesting observation from a guy with both machines. I agree the sherline has a very weak Z axis. I've also seen the kind of bending you're talking about. You learn to compensate by taking lighter cuts but yeah that is really annoying. Basically every time I machine hard materials like steel, you can see it rattle more than normal. Sherline uses anodized aluminum dovetails so they are forced to use a soft material like delrin for the gibs, while taig uses steel ways and brass gibs. So very much stiffer. Taig is cheaper too cost wise. I only hope they make a better default spindle with a speed controller for the taig. Actually I don't think the sherline has powder coating? I think it's anodized layer with a black dye. Even older models are like that right? Now let's switch over to the lathe though. I have the taig lathe and not the sherline (other way around). Sherline makes better lathes. Both a more refined and a better performing product IMO for the lathe than the taig lathe. The Taig lathe works, but I hate the rack and pinion and the pathetic cross slide. Basically I should have gotten a taig mill and a sherline lathe. ------- Re: Taig vs sherline mill Posted by: "Lester Caine" lesterx~xxlsces.co.uk lscesuk Date: Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:49 am ((PST)) On 28/01/15 09:25, baboonhead11x~xxyahoo.com [TAIGTOOLS] wrote: > Sherline uses anodized aluminum dovetails so they are forced to use a > soft material like delrin for the gibs, while taig uses steel ways and > brass gibs. So very much stiffer. Taig is cheaper too cost wise. I only > hope they make a better default spindle with a speed controller for the > taig. One of the reasons I don't take base machines with a spindle these days. The Kress is still a compromise, but it is a good default to start from. Lester Caine - G8HFL ------- Re: Taig vs sherline mill Posted by: "Tony Jeffree" tonyx~xxjeffree.co.uk tonyjeffree Date: Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:57 am ((PST)) Taig spends the money where it is necessary from an engineering point of view. Sherline spend more on the cosmetics and appearance than Taig does. I know which of those choices I prefer. Having said that, as previously mentioned, the Sherline rotary table is a lovely and practical piece of kit. Regards, Tony ------- Re: Taig vs sherline mill Posted by: jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net n2562001 Date: Wed Jan 28, 2015 7:29 am ((PST)) Always an interesting subject but would be far more interesting if each had to demonstrate their opinion. I have owned a Taig Mill and currently own a Sherline Mill. Each have their strengths and weaknesses and both are of far greater value and quality than compatible size Chinese machines. My Taig Mill was slightly larger and heavier than the Sherline and was most happy and efficient at the upper end of its limitations. I had no issue with it and it performed as designed. The only reason it was sold, was that the type and size of work it was designed for was more easily and accurately done on my larger Mills that I have space for. As mentioned by others, the Sherline Mill is a very versatile and refined machine. While it is less comfortable at its upper limits compared to the Taig, if PROPERLY tooled and SETUP it is surprising what can be accomplished in all types of materials. The Sherline mill's strong point is micro machining. Micro machining requires Micro tooling requiring as much hand wheel feedback and control as possible to eliminate tool breakage and valuable work piece damage. The heavier and course construction even though of quality of the Taig mill, made use of micro tooling impractical. A couple of more recent interesting examples was an escape wheel for a very expensive watch and a Medical catheter nozzle for medical research. The catheter nozzle required passages of under .005". It all comes down to what you want to do. If you have a space limitation and you wish to do the largest possible basic work on the smallest mill, I would suggest the Taig. If you need to do occasional upper limitation work and Micro machining or detailed work, I would suggest the Sherline because of its greater versatility and refinement. One side note. For those attempting to make a living, one off type Micro Machining is in great demand in the startup medical and research industry and is often billed out in the $200.00- $300.00 per hour range once a reputation is developed. One of the only sources for Micro machining basic training is the "National Association of Watch And Clock Collectors" NAWCC at Welcome to the NAWCC http://www.nawcc.org While the training is Horological oriented, techniques are universal and students from all walks of life and interests including hobbyist attend. Click on education. Jerry Kieffer ------- Re: Taig vs sherline mill Posted by: lleebluesx~xxyahoo.com lleeblues Date: Wed Jan 28, 2015 8:09 am ((PST)) It seems that every now and then people get into this pissing contest over which manufactures machine is better. I have used them all and each has its sweet spot and its draw backs. Both Sherline and Taig make good little machines. They both are capable of doing good work within their working window. None of them handle well working outside of their working envelope. For the most part its not the machine but the machinist that makes the difference. This is all too often overlooked in the heat of tool talk. The Sherline has the finesse for small parts. Taig has just as much finesse in a larger working envelope. Both are woefully inadequate weight wise compared to Little Machine Shops micro milling machine which beats the Taig and the Sherline machines hands down and in a little larger work envelope to boot. The question I would pose to you is why do machine shops have different size lathes and mills in them? The answer is because each machine is very good at doing its work envelope and you the machinist can feel it and feeling it is a very important part of being a good machinist. As an example of the exception to the rule I can change over from a 5/16" cutting tool to a 1/4" cutting tool on my Edelitaal lathe and do fairly reasonably delicate work. But I could not do really small parts like a Sherline would do and was born for. It would be difficult to get the same sensitivity on my Edelitaal as you would get on a Sherline or Taig. So all in all this conversation is really nothing but a exercise in Ford vs Chevy. As we used to say at 75 and 80 drag strip, it's the mechanic and the driver that win the race, not the make of car. ------- NOTE TO FILE: The above conversation went on for several days and I got tired of reading it, let alone transcribing it here. Go to TAIGTOOLS at Yahoo if you really need more on this comparison. Me, I'm happy with my Sherline Mill and if I wanted bigger or stronger, would go way way bigger than Taig's equally fine little mill. ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following comes out of a much longer discussion about the use of carbide cutters for shapers. Then it turned into improving machinery, be it for a shaper or mill. But there are also some comments about different milling machines that might prove useful. ------- Re: Carbide Cutters [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: pduselx~xxsprintmail.com pdusel Date: Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:17 pm ((PST)) Dennis, Kind of where I was going. I have a Bridgeport that's pretty loose in the Y, mostly because the gib appears to have not been adjusted in a very long time. I suspect the saddle and gib are now worn bowed. I also have a Cincinnati 24" shaper, still on the trailer, and likely to be there for a few more months (indoors). The Bridgeport Y, and the X saddle, should be within the Cincinnati's working range. In "Foundations of Mechanical Accuracy" Wayne Moore mentions that the preferred machining method for cast iron gibs/ways is a single point tool. He mentions that milling the parts left more machining distortion. Although the information may be a bit out of date, the machines I have to work with are from before that book was written, so I figure if it's good enough to make a Moore jig-bore, a single point tool aught to be fine for renovating a 57 year old bridgeport, along with some other tired iron I've been collecting, and the better the finish to start, the less scraping there'll be to do. So first machine to renovate, sounds like the shaper, and use it on the rest. Or, have I said something stupid? Pete ------- Re: Carbide Cutters Posted by: "dennis Turk" dennis.turk2x~xxfrontier.com dturkcars Date: Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:31 am ((PST)) Hi Pete OK you need to know how your BP was originally built. BP did not use shapers at all. All the dovetail slide ways on a BP were machined with a dovetail cutter like I use. BP did no scraping at all on their slide ways for fitting, they were just used as machined. The only scraper tool used on a BP was the oil spotter or crescent cut you see on the slide flat ways. Now understand that oil spotting on an uncovered slide way is the first rule they failed at. Even SB did this. Any good well mfg machine tool will not have any oil spotting on uncovered ways, only on covered ways like on the top and bottom of the saddle. Same for a lathe the bed is not scraped but will be under the saddle or under the cross slide or top casting of the top slide. The reason is very basic. Oil spotting on exposed ways only accelerates bed wear by the oil spots collecting crud and then carrying it under the covered way were it gets imbedded and then proceeds to grind the flat ways into oblivion. When I worked at Tektronix in the sixties we had a department I worked in where we re-built BP mills as the company had about 200 of them. Trust me, if you use a BP you will rebuild it frequently as we did. The advent of the Tibon ways or hard chroming of the ways did slow down the wear but did nothing for the fit or accuracy of the mill. When a knee or saddle got too badly worn to rebuild we simply ordered a new one from the factory and installed it just like they would have. As you can see I don’t think much of BP mills. I did purchase a brand new one in 1989 as it was all that I could get my hands on in short notice. It was used by one man till in 1993 when I purchased 8 Chevalier mills. Once the guys used the Chevalier mills the BP was stuck in the warehouse never used again as no one wanted it. Years later I sold it to a friend that had a mill drill machine and to him it was a fantastic upgrade but even he will tell you today that it’s a pile of crap compared to what I use in my home shop or business. Now all this being said there are a few good BP mills but they were not built here in the US. These came from Taiwan. You can identify them by the black chrome dial rings that they are equipped with. These are really good mills. Also most do not know this but when “Textron purchased BP in 1980 that was the last time a BP was built in the US. The castings came from India and the machine work on everything but the head was done by Adcock and Shipley in the UK. The head come to the US complete and it was built in Singapore. The mill I got in 89 had tags on it telling where the parts had come from. Many dealers took these tags off before they sold them. At one time one of my clients shut down their model shop and I was allowed to bid on the tools there. I won a 1982 Textron built BP. I installed a DRO on it, cleaned it up, adjusted it, and gave it to a new machinist I had just hired. He came into my office a couple of days later and said the mill is no good. I ask why. He handed me some blocks of aluminum he had machined and they had four holes, one in each corner. He handed me two of them and said look at the holes. I did and they looked fine. He said now turn one of them around and I did and looked again and damn you could see where the hole pattern was not square. I took a large granite angle plate and set it on the mill table and dialed in Y to read 0 0 in 8 inches. Then I set the indicator up to read the X axis. He was correct: the saddle was out of square .008 in 8 inches. No adjusting can compensate for a saddle that was not machined square. So much for that mill. I sold it a week later and purchased a Webb mill that I have in my home shop today. So all this being said by all means if you can setup the saddle in the shaper do so but you will find the top slide ways will be convex or rounded off at the ends. The bottom slide way that rides on the knee will not be so bad. You will also have to machine the top of the knee for if you do one slide way, you must do them all -- or all mating ones that is. Now the table ways are another story. These were in fact originally ground. We had a large Madison surface grinder at work were we would re-grind the table slide ways and then grind the top of the table. Now understand that the thickness of the table from the flat way on the front to the top of the table is ground .001 thicker than you do the rear slide way. Why, you ask. Any new mill if you set up an indicator and run it back and forth in Y axis you will find that the front of the table will be .001 high compared to the back. This is done to allow for wear of all slide ways through the life of the mill. When we got a mill that was .001 low at the front it was time to rebuild it. All my Chevalier mills we do a physical standards check on them once a year. All of them after 20 years of use still show a full .001 high at the front or they have not worn at all. Then 60 Rockwell flame hardened bed ways should not if they are kept clean and properly lubed. You’re in for a lot of work Pete but with the end results you will be in good shape. Dennis ------- Re: Carbide Cutters Posted by: "Paolo Amedeo" machineshopx~xxmedeo.net paolo_kaboom Date: Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:37 pm ((PST)) Another thing to consider when rebuilding a milling machine is that the top of the table is generally bowed due to the accumulated stress, not because of "drooping", like somebody believes. The worst offenders are over-tightening T-nuts. If you don't want to do the work twice, it is better to clean up the top surface first, in at least a couples of steps, the first one being at most half the difference between the highest point (more or less at the center) and the lowest one (generally at the edges): with the first pass you'd relieve a good portion of the tension and the curvature of the table will be immediately reduced. There are several very interesting threads on Practical Machinist forums discussing this issue. If anybody is interested, I'll try to find a couple and post here the links. Paolo ------- Re: Carbide Cutters Posted by: "Tucker Tomlinson" tuckertomlinsonx~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:10 pm ((PST)) Pete: That sounds like a really neat project -- I'd love to see some pics when you finally get your Cincinnati working on that mill. It might not be how Bridgeport built it in the first place, but that's no reason you can't do it better. Dennis: As always you have a fascinatingly different perspective from me. Coming from the hobby side of things, a bridgeport is about the largest mill I can handle in terms of transport and hookup. It's also appealing because there are so many of them you can find one in good shape for fairly little money, and tooling is plentiful. Every one I've ever encountered (6 or so at this point) has been just fine for the little projects I want to do on a mill. I'm surprised to hear that BP ever sold a mill that was so out of square by 1thou/inch. Pretty terrible by any standard. I'll have to keep an eye out the next time I see one and see if I can spot any issues like you describe. Cheers ------- [Was Re: Taig vs sherline mill] O.T. "compared to my Millrite," [TAIGTOOLS] Posted by: "DennisF MacIntyre" a1g2r3ix~xxyahoo.ca a1g2r3i Date: Wed Jan 28, 2015 7:20 am ((PST)) Dear Jake, I liked your comparisons. I also unsuccessfully tried to find the mill referred to - "compared to my Millrite," can you please help? I am interested to see its specs and picture and who sells it. keep smiling dennis mac ------- Re: O.T. "compared to my Millrite," Posted by: "Jake Horky" jacob.horkyx~xxgmail.com jakehorky Date: Wed Jan 28, 2015 8:05 am ((PST)) Haha, sure! I know I could take this offline, but will reply here in case some of the other home shop folks are interested in going a little bigger. I know I'm always interested in learning about machines from other circles. The "Millrite" was a vertical milling machine made by the US Burke Machine Tool Co. Although I don't know the exact history, I think they starting making them in the 60's. At some point they were bought out by Powermatic/Houdaille (or PM then Houdaille?). Mine is this Powermatic version, which is called an "MVN". The date on mine is 1984, which is, unfortunately, one of the last ever made. Basically they are a 3/4 sized Bridgeport. This makes them prized by home shop machinists because they can fit in almost any basement or garage, yet weighing in at about 1500 lbs they are a fully capable machine. Check out this page for a lot of good info and pictures: http://www.lathes.co.uk/millrite/ From what I gather, they were really popular with machine shops who needed to have a few extra, inexpensive machines "on the ready" to do certain jobs. Many were sold for this reason. If you are in the US, they are pretty easy machines to find on the used market (auctions, Craigslist, etc). Price-wise they seem to run from $500 to $2k, depending on the market where you live and who's selling it. In my area and many others, they will often sell for more than a Bridgeport because of the many advantages they offer to a home shop guy (with very few trade-offs for us). I paid a whopping $1k for mine, which included an R8 ER20 collet holder and a full set collets. If you do start looking for one of these machines, you should join the Burke yahoo group to learn some of the things to look for. btw, of all the machine tool related yahoo groups I have been a part of, the Taig and Burke groups have been the most interesting, responsive, and well behaved! Have fun! Jake p.s. Although I've had my mill for a couple of years, I finally got around to refurbishing it this winter. Hopefully this link to a picture of it works: https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-sqAZmzoMz2Y/VL2n43F9YII/AAAAAAAA HgA/6z0GEonc8Z0/w537-h716-no/IMG_20150119_185647.jpg ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following came out of a discussion about suitable attachments to enable milling on an Atlas lathe. It will be of interest to owners of other lathes. ------- Re: Milling setup for Atlas 10-inch. [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Lance Eggleston" gbofx~xxverizon.net crashbone256 Date: Thu Feb 5, 2015 5:40 pm ((PST)) Within all this discussion, has anyone addressed the relative disadvantages of milling on the lathe vs saving the money toward a proper mill? Recently a Burke 4 with overhead and power feed table was offered for $400. What's the cost of the Myford or RDG + extras? lance ------- Re: Milling setup for Atlas 10-inch. Posted by: jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net jtiers Date: Thu Feb 5, 2015 6:25 pm ((PST)) Nobody has, but there is just no comparison. A real mill is 10x better than ANY adapter I have seen. Definitely better than any milling adapter I have used. I have mostly used Palmgren types, as that is what I have for the Logan. In general it is OK for keyway cutting, and minor milling, but not something you will want to use for larger tasks. For some larger tasks, a milling table is better. Logan sold one that I have a version of, and MLA (see below) has one for atlas (# A-11). That cuts out a lot of leverage and has a more stable base, since it replaces the entire crosslide assembly. But it is not useful for every task. There just is no real substitute for a mill, and as pointed out, the attachments can easily cost a substantial proportion of the cost of a mill. A loose mill is likely to still be far better than a tight milling adapter for a lightweight lathe. The Milling attachment from Metal Lathe Acessories (MLA), which is a "kit" you build, is one of the best, lots of mass, which most of the setups lack. Mass keeps things stable and cuts the vibration etc. The milling base, and "transfer block" are also good for larger items. Some of the milling related stuff they have is in these links. They are generally aimed at S-B and Atlas, with some Logan-capable stuff. http://www.statecollegecentral.com/metallathe/MLA-5.html http://www.statecollegecentral.com/metallathe/S-4382A.html http://www.statecollegecentral.com/metallathe/S-4382.html http://www.statecollegecentral.com/metallathe/U-12.html http://www.statecollegecentral.com/metallathe/A-11.html Jerry ------- From: wa5cabx~xxcs.com [atlas_craftsman] Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2015 11:26 PM Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] Milling setup for Atlas 10-inch. No. Nor the disadvantages of buying a separate mill if you are strapped for space and funds. Adding a mill will require another 10 to 12 square feet of shop space. And if the mill itself only costs you $400 (which on average is highly unlikely),you will spend a total of probably $1000 or more before it is well enough tooled to be generally useful. Which doesn't of course mean that you shouldn't buy a mill if you have adequate space and funds. But it isn't usually our job to try to talk anyone out of doing something unless it is dangerous or can't produce decent results. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: Milling setup for Atlas 10-inch Posted by: jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net jtiers Date: Thu Feb 5, 2015 10:29 pm ((PST)) While agreeing that it isn't our job to talk others out of their plans, there are some points to be made. 1) There is nothing at all wrong with suggesting an alternative, nor with disposing of bad arguments in favor of a bad option. 2) Anything that is said about the cost of tooling a mill SHOULD also apply to tooling a lathe to be used for milling. The costs to do the same job on either should be similar. The difference is that many jobs are either imposible on the lathe, or so arduous as to be effectively impossible. Therefore those jobs are never done, and so never tooled for, substantially reducing costs to tool the lathe. But it's really a false argument, since it compares different situations. 3) If you have a mill, it is perfectly possible to tool it for "general use" for a fraction of the $1000 cost you proposed. All you really need is some cutters and some form of vise. That gets you going, capable of basic milling work, at least as much as you can ever hope to do on the lathe. From that basic equipment you can make many other needed items, on an as-needed basis. I manufactured my own low-profile vise (and published it in an article for HSM), made a swivel base for another vise, manufactured fixtures and tooling for gear cutting, etc, etc. Of course you can buy as well. 4) Throwing out numbers for the cost of tooling a mill is very misleading. I have two mills, a Lewis and a Benchmaster. The total cost of purchase for BOTH mills, PLUS the total cost of tooling used on them, might possibly come up to the arbitrary $1000 cost you assigned to tooling alone. And that includes tooling and fixtures to cut both spur and bevel gears. It's merely a matter of how you buy, and how much you simply make instead of buying. Buying new is expensive. But it can be a good choice if you just want to get to work, and not make tooling. All in all, the cost of a mill plus basic tooling can be little more than the cost of a decent condition milling attachment plus basic tooling. The tooling should wash out, equal in either case, unless you load up the mill tooling budget with extra "luxury" items you would never buy to mill on a lathe. It's worth serious thought. And, much as I hate to say it, even a 3 in 1 type lathe/mill/drill is going to be more solid and effective than milling on any Atlas lathe. You'd do better to ditch the Atlas and buy a 3 in 1, if you really truly can't fit in a mill, but want an effective way to do milling work. Cost is another issue, but of course you do get the value of the Atlas back to spend on it. Jerry ------- Re: Milling setup for Atlas 10-inch Posted by: "Carvel Webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za cwlathes Date: Thu Feb 5, 2015 11:30 pm ((PST)) I agree a separate Mill is a very desirable option, but the vertical attachment also comes in handy for other purposes -- like mounting a small tool post grinder for example. If Kurt is in the EU, and floor space is at a premium, then he may wish to look out for a Maximat V10-P or Super 11 with milling column fitted as another option. Although not constrained for space at the moment, I realise I will be one day and the V10-P will hopefully go with me when/if I have to move, although it will be sad day to part with my lifelong Atlas friend. Regards, Carvel ------- Re: Milling setup for Atlas 10-inch Posted by: jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net jtiers Date: Fri Feb 6, 2015 6:44 pm ((PST)) The OP "reminded us" as folows: "3. Let me remind us that this discussion began with the qualification "medium-light milling operations..." " To which I will simply comment that "reality" has a way of dealing rather brutally with expectations. A) one always thinks initially that one can easily get by with a small subset of shop work... Usually this is because that limit either looks inexpensive, or looks physically small, and those are deemed important. The limits so easily accepted before having any equipment are usually reached or exceeded soon after the equipment with the limits is purchased. The OP has experience with this, having presumably decided a 618 "would be plenty big enough", but now he has a 10" which he shoehorned in somehow because he needed it after all. B) milling on the lathe is fine for "light" milling. When you include "medium", there is the potential for trouble, because that will exceed what is doable with the Atlas lathe, unless you are willing to risk having to start over because the weak setup let go, or otherwise allowed a part- scrapping (even machine-damaging) event. I was perfectly serious when I advised getting a 3 in 1 machine and selling the Atlas. It would provide more milling capability than the Atlas with milling attachment, and add drill press capability. The 3 in 1 are not known to be the best units in each of the 3 categories, but they will serve, they can be used. Many people do very good work with them. Limited space is a perfect example of why they exist in the first place. About workshop space, most of my machines are crammed into an area about 7 x 11 feet, along with workbench, 2 rollarounds, and storage. I know all about space issues. I have not and never will put the machines etc on wheels. It makes them less usable, in my estimation. As for the amount of money, I remind you that I bought TWO mills and tooled them, and I do not think I have spent even $1000 in total for the two mills plus tooling. I have arbors and spacers, dozens of plain and slabbing cutters, many gear cutters, an indexing head, three vises, one of them on a swivel base, a vertical head for the horizontal mill, collets, rotating (not rotary) table, auxiliary tables, tilt tables, etc. All for less than the $1000 including two mills. I didn't buy all of it at one time, of course, this was "accumulated".. That "$1000 with tooling" is simply not cut in stone. The more so because we are discussing replacing limited milling on the lathe, so a rotary table and indexer are extra-cost luxuries that shouldn't be considered for the mill when comparing costs. You can't use them when milling on the lathe, so don't count them in the comparison. "Tooling" for milling on the lathe is limited to a few end mills, really, maybe an end mill holder or a couple collets. That costs no more for a mill than for a lathe. Anything past that is adding extra capabilities, and so is not to be included in a tooling cost comparison. Jerry ------- From: Whitney WhitPUSMCx~xxaol.com [atlas_craftsman] Sent: Friday, February 06, 2015 3:55 PM Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] Milling setup for Atlas 10-inch I have a mill, but unlike the lathe where the two chucks I have (3 jaw and 4 jaw) have sufficed to hold everything I've needed to work on so far, the several vises I have have not been enough to hold stuff on the mill and I've been at a loss to get a good work holding set as the T slots on my mills table seem to be non standard. Thus I've not gotten anywhere near as far on my milling as I have with my lathe. Any suggestions on how to proceed? Is there a good "milling 101" website? How to chase down the right work holding kit for the mill? Whit ------- Re: Milling setup for Atlas 10-inch Posted by: jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net jtiers Date: Fri Feb 6, 2015 6:57 pm ((PST)) What size are your t-slots? My approach was just to make t-nuts to fit the slots I have, and use a combination of all-thread sections and suitable length studs to hold work. My t-slots are the size that for some reason is the highest priced of all the "mill hold-down sets", by a considerable margin. By just making the tooling, I got exactly what I wanted. And, despite many solemnly informing me that the all-thread would let my work pop right out and get thrown in my face, that it would send me straight to the ER, nothing of the sort has happened. You just need to use good sense. I feel pretty sure you could hold some material well enough to make a couple t-nuts. With them, you hold more material and make enough more t-nuts to do what you need. Buy some good nuts for the top side, to hold the work, hardened nuts with washer bottoms. They are not expensive. Hold-down straps are not hard to make out of 5/16" or 3/8" CRS. Making your tooling is a good way to go, as it makes you realize your capabilities more forcefully than "checkbook machining". It's all perfectly good time cranking the dials, that makes for more experience. Buy at least one 'corncob" style roughing cutter for the mill. They are wonderful for all sorts of non-critical work, as well as "hogging out" material when you need to remove quite a bit. Much lower forces on the machine. Jerry ------- milling using the Myford Vertical Slide [myfordlathes] Posted by: "Stephen Voller" stephen_vollerx~xxhotmail.com Date: Thu Apr 9, 2015 8:21 am ((PDT)) Hi all, Apologies if I've already asked this in the distant past. I have an ML7, a suitable headstock nose mounted collet holder and the Myford vertical slide with two pivots - one in the vertical and one in the horizontal axis. If you disregard the issue of removing the tool post and topslide each time and then converting back after you've done your milling, how good is using this attachment to do any milling? I am a member of a couple of 16mm scale garden railway groups and have received negative comments ref using the lathe for milling. I do appreciate there is probably no substitute for a dedicated mill but was hoping to use what I've got, so what do other Myford owners think? Regards, Steve V [and in a later message] Sorry folks I just found older messages ref milling in the Myford; am only just getting around to actually doing it! It would seem the answer is to give it ago and take it steady. I would still like to here how others have got on doing it though. Regards Steve V ------- Re: milling using the Myford Vertical Slide Posted by: "David Everett" dernhx~xxyahoo.co.uk deverett2003 Date: Thu Apr 9, 2015 8:43 am ((PDT)) Hi Steve. For what you are contemplating, it will be perfectly adequate to use the vertical slide for milling. Remember, before the days when most model engineers had a milling machine, many fine models were been built using just the setup that you are asking about. It is inconvenient for sure and the vertical slide is nowhere near as rigid as a milling machine, but with light cuts you should be fine with the work anticipated. Dave The Emerald Isle ------- Re: milling using the Myford Vertical Slide Posted by: "Nigel Heasman" nigelx~xxnigelheasman.com Date: Thu Apr 9, 2015 8:51 am ((PDT)) Hi Steve, I have the same set up as you and have done many successful milling jobs with it, but I've also had a few problems! The secret, as you say, is to take it really steady (small cuts) and ensure that your work piece is really well held in the vertical slide (vice or otherwise). Also, always mill "against" the cutter -- don't be tempted to take a cut "with" the cutter -- things will jump about and cause you distress/loss of a carefully prepared work piece or worse! Guess how I know! I would love to have a dedicated mill but they do cost a few ££££'s Good luck Nigel ------- Re: milling using the Myford Vertical Slide Posted by: "Grant Jones Professional Engineer" grantwjonesx~xxshaw.ca Date: Thu Apr 9, 2015 8:54 am ((PDT)) Steve, I am relatively new to model building but not to lathe work. I have milling attachments for my lathes but became very frustrated, as you are so limited as to the setups you can do. You can spend hours trying to create setups, which probably some guys do. The issue that you will keep coming up to is you are too limited to the available height between your lathe centre and the milling table on your lathe. Some guys I note have built an accessory to raise the driving height of their centre to accommodate the work height. To me a lathe and a mill are like and hand and glove, they are a pair. My advice for what it's worth is to put the money that you would spend in milling attachments towards a milling machine and you will be a lot better off. There are a lot of milling machine types out there, and again some guys use some of these very successfully. The knee-type, although more expensive is what I feel gives you the best result. Grant ------- Re: milling using the Myford Vertical Slide Posted by: "Alan Moore" a.j.moorex~xxbtinternet.com Date: Thu Apr 9, 2015 9:24 am ((PDT)) Steve, It is possible to mill using the vertical slide, just as it is possible to cut your lawn with a pair of scissors, but it is all just so much better and easier with a milling machine. Quite apart from the limited size of workpiece you can handle, the biggest problem is the lack of rigidity. In this respect the swivelling vertical slide is worse than the fixed version. It is almost impossible to tighten things up so tight that it cannot move if the tool digs in (I speak from bitter experience here). If it does move it is likely to make the dig in that much worse. Since you can only take very light cuts you are going to wear your milling cutters away faster than if you could take proper cuts. And you are almost inevitably going to get vibration and poor surface finish. Yes, it is possible to mill in the lathe, but in a very limited way. I agree with the previous correspondent -- save up your money towards a proper milling machine, one with dovetail slides, not the inferior mill/drill with a circular column. Look for a good secondhand machine in lathes.co.uk or ebay -- they do come up now and then. Look for one from a model engineer, a school or a college -- it won't have had the heavy use that a machine from a factory will have had. Regards, Alan ------- Re: milling using the Myford Vertical Slide Posted by: red-rosex~xxgreenview.fslife.co.uk jackofalltrades.masterofnone Date: Thu Apr 9, 2015 1:00 pm ((PDT)) Hi Steve, I will repeat what I put on Steam Model Loco. Fly cutting is better than trying to use an end or slot mill. Please don't think people were all being negative about milling in the lathe -- they were pointing to the pitfalls so making sure that your set up was accurate. I also have a two-axis vertical slide. I have tried milling in the lathe and the trick is to go slowly! Keep the speed down as a dig-in can push the slide round if it is not securely clamped in the vertical axis. I used a 1/2" slot mill and probably went too fast and got a horrible dig-in that broke a tooth on the mill. A flycutter will sweep more gently. I set the vertical slide against a chuck face (with the jaws out) to get it square to the spindle but have seen recommendations since to place a piece of paper between the mating surfaces to increase friction which will make clamping more secure. Be sure to lock all slides that you are not using to get maximum rigidity, and practice first. Flycutters are easy to make -- you just need a blob on a stick that is concentric, and a hole for a piece of HSS ground like a right hand knife tool with a round face to give a good finish. OK, that is a bit simplified but you can find proper descriptions anywhere. I will take one for you to see if you are going to Peterborough on Saturday. Andy ------- Re: milling using the Myford Vertical Slide Posted by: stephen_vollerx~xxhotmail.com stephen_volleruk Date: Thu Apr 9, 2015 1:17 pm ((PDT)) Thanks to all who replied and especially to Andy for your patience -- sadly I won't be able to meet you as am unable to get to Peterborough. I will certainly give it a go to see what can be achieved but do appreciate that a dedicated mill is the way to go -- better start saving I think. :O) PS - Andy - thanks for taking the trouble in describing the setup. I will give the fly cutter a go -- if I don't try I'll never know Steve V ------- Re: milling using the Myford Vertical Slide Posted by: "Kevin" tadpolex~xxbtinternet.com klokenz Date: Thu Apr 9, 2015 1:21 pm ((PDT)) I'd say just get yourself a few brand new milling cutters and have at it! Just take it easy and you'll be delighted with what you can do, big smirky grin time! Once model engineers in home workshops did all their milling in the lathe. Number 5 in the Workshop Practice series of books is "Milling Operations in the Lathe", by "Tubal Cain", highly recommended. Kevin, England ------- Taig Mill as a drillpress [TAIGTOOLS] Posted by: rap6404x~xxyahoo.com rap6404 Date: Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:53 pm ((PDT)) I realize the Taig mill is not a mill-drill by design but I am curious as to how much of an inconvenience this is to members when several holes are required such as stud holes in a steam engine cylinder or the like. Do you muddle through on the Taig or move to a drill press with an X-Y table? I'm trying to decide between the Taig mill and an SX2. For what I need the work envelopes are both okay but the drilling capability is quite different. ------- Re: Taig Mill as a drillpress Posted by: jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net n2562001 Date: Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:14 pm ((PDT)) Name ??? I posted a photo of my personal Chinese Mill under my name that I believe is the one you are considering. While I am not a big fan of either the Taig Mill or the Chinese Mill, I have owned both. A side by side demo of both machines would easily answer your questions. What many beginners do not realize is that when drilling holes for models and other work, not only do you drill but you do other operations such as spotting with a end mill, boring steps and many other procedures. So when you drill a hole you will lock the slides and many times perform many operations locked on the center of the hole for accuracy. Any extra time spent drilling with a Mill will be immaterial when considering the big picture. The Taig Mill will allow you to do quality work regardless of the operation if that is your goal unlike the Chinese Mills. The Chinese Mill shown, has not been useful for any kind of consistent quality machine work due to its crude construction. Along with its companion Mini Lathe, they are used to clean up corroded and welded/ silver soldered work pieces before these pieces are put into quality machines. For this they have served a satisfactory purpose. The Mini Mill is less useful than the Lathe but neither are trusted with valued work pieces that have quality machine time invested. Again, always explore demonstrations before investing money in machines. It will be the best time you ever spend. Jerry Kieffer ------- Re: Taig Mill as a drillpress Posted by: "WAM" ajawam2x~xxcomcast.net ajawamnet Date: Fri Oct 23, 2015 6:44 pm ((PDT)) I use my Taig and my SX2 mill and SC2 lathe for work -- I do a lot of jobs with them. All the machines I have work surprisingly well. http://www.ajawamnet.com/ajawam3/swarf/swarf.htm I've been designing hardware for various clients here in DC for about 15 years -- overall about 25 years. I'm always busy with the lab and shop and have to say, for the space I have, both the Taig and LMS stuff has served me well. My father-in-law was a tool and die maker and I get results quite close to what he did in professional machine shops. If you look at engineman's site: http://www.modelengines.info/ and http://workshop.modelengines.info/ You'll see what a master craftsman can do with a taig mill and taig and asian lathes -- pretty incredible stuff. For instance, when he first got his taig mill he decided to make a miniature taig lathe: http://modelengines.info/lathes/modeltaig.html Note where he states: "When I started to build this thing, I had no idea how I could cut such small T-slots without buying expensive cutters. I thought this might give me a convenient point to lay the project to rest, as it was started only as my first milling exercise and it didn't need to be finished. I rifled through a drawer of ruined drill bits and noticed that flutes are quite sharp.... A 3/16" HSS bit went into the 3-jaw chuck, I grabbed the Dremel flex shaft with a grinding disk affixed and in four minutes I had made a T-slot cutter." Pretty amazing guy.... Then there's this guy - Dr Alan Pinkus: http://www.micro-machine-shop.com/ Check out his publications and patents on things like night vision: http://www.micro-machine-shop.com/Who_is_Alan_Pinkus.htm ------- Re: Taig Mill as a drillpress Posted by: rap6404x~xxyahoo.com rap6404 Date: Sat Oct 24, 2015 8:35 am ((PDT)) Thanks for your reply. Given your comment that the Taig and LMS machines both perform "surprisingly well", if you could only have one mill which would you choose and would the easier drilling capability of the mini mill be a deciding factor? I have toured the Taig factory and was impressed at the quality so I have no concern about that mill and could live with it so long as my projects fit its work envelope. I also had the great privilege of visiting John Bentley (AKA The Engineman) and have seen his shop and work first hand. Anything I would attempt would be of the same size as the things he produces so I'm comfortable with the Taig lathe and mill being sufficient. I'm also trying to decide between an SC2 mini lathe (Micromark 7X16 or the LMS 7X16) as an alternative to the Taig lathe. The Taig I think would be more capable of precision work right out of the box but the mini lathes offer threading capability, power feed and a larger work envelope and with some effort that is well described on the internet their manufacturing defects can be largely overcome. Again a decision to be made. ------- Re: Taig Mill as a drillpress Posted by: "WAM" ajawam2x~xxcomcast.net ajawamnet Date: Sat Oct 24, 2015 10:16 am ((PDT)) Actually, the drilling factor of the mini mill (the rack/pinion thing) is the first thing I took off. It's really sloppy for milling; at least mine was. It really comes down to the size of stuff you want to do. If it's small like Mr Bentley's work I'd go with the Taig for the mill. As to the lathe, having the BLDC on the mini is great for slow stuff (form tools, chamfer, etc...) and the threading capability is nice to have. With any of the asian-made stuff figure that you'll need to do some tuning/finishing to get it right and tight. For me, and the stuff I do (non-hobby) I use the Sieg stuff the most. Meeting Mr Bentley must have been cool. So to answer your question I'll defer to Mr Bentley on this one: http://modelengines.info/lathes/rigidity.html "To be clear, I use my Craftex mini lathe as much as my Taig when constructing miniature engines. The mini lathe has some capabilities that are difficult to find in a Taig, but the Taig can do things that are more difficult to achieve using a mini lathe. These machines are both suited to a similar size range and within that range, good work can be coaxed from either by simply relying on good procedure -- and not expecting the machine to do your part of the work. Some free advice! It's great to take on "pseudo-snobbery" about how one or the other of these is machines not able to do some certain job, but I think in the long run we are fooling no one but ourselves. If we can't figure out how to do something, it doesn't mean it can't be done -- it just means we don't know how to do it. Join a good forum, ask for suggestions and learn how to separate the good answers from the bad -- it's not that difficult! Machining procedures aren't big secrets. There is a lot of knowledge available -- and people who have it are only too happy to help. I have appealed for assistance on the web many times and never been disappointed." ------- Re: Taig Mill as a drillpress Posted by: jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net n2562001 Date: Sun Oct 25, 2015 1:29 pm ((PDT)) Model engineering and its construction equipment is something that must be experienced to be understood. If your model is to be from castings, basic in construction, generic in nature and from commercial fasteners including fittings and hardware, you may slide by with minimal demands on equipment. In addition, a high degree of hand finish work can be applied to enhance the outward appearance and or hide issues if required. As such, for this, most equipment regardless of quality will suffice. While this type of model is a great starter project, many soon develop a desire for a greater degree of scale and detail. This is the point where equipment selection becomes critical. As an example, I have posted a photo of an engine under my name. While this engine is far from complex, it is from bar stock in exact scale with fully functional generator, cutout, ignition, and oil pump with sending unit. Again while not complex, it would not have been practical or even exist, if I had been limited to the Chinese Mini Lathe and Mill. Both the Lathe and Mill are too large, course and crude for the small detail parts of this type/size engine. However, even if they were capable, there are no practical accessories for holding the small required parts and tooling. Scale models require fine thread scale bolts and screws to provide strength and proper placement in tight areas that are not available commercially. This requires that they either be single point cut or Taps and Dies be cut for making them. In either case, the Mini lathe threading system is of no use since it only provides a few standard course thread pitches. On these machines, repeatability is not consistent. For example if one were machining fins on the example engine cylinder or head you could not be confident that they would all come out the same. The same is true for the larger parts. While you can absorb an occasional screwup that will happen with any piece of equipment regardless of quality, it is the larger number of accumulated machine generated issues that come up with the Chinese equipment that is a real killer to the overall project. The other issue is time. The Chinese machine accessories do not offer interchangeability. For example, on my machines I am able to machine something on the lathe either in a chuck or collet and transfer to any of the accessories on the Mill and back to the lathe without removing the work piece until complete. This in turn cuts down on time and greatly increases accuracy as well as skill development. Etc. Etc. Unless your demands are minimal, I would again suggest demonstrations as a method of sorting out fact from fiction. A note on the Engine in the Photo. This particular Engine was built to determine if a Harley Engine would actually run and idle in exact scale. As such, in its current state, it has yet to receive any final finish or plating of parts. However during construction, a rougher finish was applied to parts to duplicate the original finish of the 70 year old original full size engine it was copied from. For anyone interested, Micro machining workshops are available from the National Association of Watch and Clock collectors. (NAWCC) While Horological oriented, they provide instruction on all types of Micro machining that can be used regardless of the project for both Industry as well as Hobbyist. Welcome to the NAWCC! http://nawcc.org Official Website of The National Association of Watch & Clock Collectors - Dedicated to the Advancement of the Art & Science of Timekeeping in the Service... Click on Education and follow the links. It's an excellent way of experiencing machines and gaining Machine tool knowledge at the same time. Jerry Kieffer ------- ------------------------------------------------------------------ This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------