------------------------------------------------------------------ This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------ Here find some useful tips on rebuilding machinery in general. Also see the other files here on specific machines for tips about making repairs and even completely new parts. REBUILDING a machine implies a complete makeover -- a need to repair or refit or refinish all parts, or most parts. You might think the ideal rebuilding file would cover every part and every procedure. Definitely not. That would be a book, and every book really should have chapters to divide the work into bite-sized chunks/subjects. Consider this file as the introduction in a rebuilding book. It has a few ideas and procedures, but the bulk of the practical tips are in individual chapters (other files on this site). No matter what type or brand of machine you are repairing or rebuilding, there are hundreds of additional useful tips on this site in files like: Atlas Chucks Atlas Parts General Atlas Repair or Fitting Chucks General Cleaning Tips Finish for Tools Lathe Comparisons Milling Machine Comparisons Rust Removal Metal Shaper Comparisons Metal Shaper Repair General and a really big "etc." Sometimes useful tips occur in files talking about modifications to particular brands or types of machine. And unfortunately, tips may be scattered through ANY OF THE FILES HERE if the comment was buried in a message that dealt mainly with a completely different subject. Certainly if you had the time, you would benefit by reading every file on this site, but even then it would be hard to remember what tip was where. If you download the files you need onto your own computer, you can then open several at once with a good text editor or word processor, and then search for key words related to your project. To speed the process, a good program will do the search across multiple open files at once. There are some very good totally free programs such as NoteTab that can do this. You may decide to gather YOUR most needed stuff into one or more customized files maintained on your computer. You can take stuff from files here, or from the messages or archives of any group you follow or come across. That file (or files) can become your personal treasury of tips, ideas, sources, etc. from others -- as well as a place to write your own ideas, comments, and experiences. And if you come up with a new wrinkle on an old idea that works better, or a completely new idea or procedure, please share it by posting your experiences to the groups that provided help to you. If you got to this file directly from my HOME PAGE, return there by using your browser's back button. BUT if you came to this file as the result of a web search engine, see many additional files on my home page Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html SAFETY WARNING BEWARE: DO NOT ASSUME that any subject matter or procedure or process is safe or correct or appropriate just because it was mentioned in a news/user group or was included in these files or on this site or on any other web site or was published in a magazine or book or video. Working with metals and machinery and chemicals and electrical equipment is inherently dangerous. Wear safety devices and clothing as appropriate. Remove watches, rings, and jewellery -- and secure or remove loose clothing -- before operating any machine. Read, understand and follow the latest operating procedures and safety instructions provided by the manufacturer of your machine or tool or product. If you do not have those most recent official instructions, acquire a copy through the manufacturer before operating or using their product. Where the company no longer exists, use the appropriate news or user group to locate an official copy. Be careful -- original instructions may not meet current safety standards. Updated safety information and operating instructions may also be available through a local club, a local professional in the trade, a local business, or an appropriate government agency. In every case, use your common sense before beginning or taking the next step; and do not proceed if you have any questions or doubts about any procedure, or the safety of any procedure. Follow all laws and codes, and employ certified or licenced professionals as required by those laws or codes. Hazardous tasks beyond your competence or expertise should also be contracted to professionals. Let's be really careful out there. (c) Copyright 2003 - 2015 Machining and Metalworking at Home The form of the collected work in this text file (including editing, additions, and notes) is copyrighted and this file is not to be reproduced by any means, including electronic, without written permission except for strictly personal use. ========================================================================== Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 06:04:37 -0400 From: Stan Stocker Subject: OT:LONG JET920, Rebuilding lathes, used lathes, costs in response to WAS:Re: Re: enco lathe Ballendo; I was trying to give a straight honest answer based on my experiences with the Jet BD920N. Perhaps I got an absolute lemon unit that doesn't represent the average unit. If so, then I hope their QC has improved, after all - they crated and sold it that way. The lathe was shipped to me from the JET warehouse, it wasn't purchased at some traveling tool carnival. I don't agree with all of your statements: "The 7x10 and 9x20 import lathes are popular because, although they DO have faults; the faults are well documented, correctable (largely), and CONSISTENT. You cannot say the same thing about going out and getting an old SB. They are all over the map, condition wise... And you had better know what you are getting, or you can EASILY get "just as" burned. Finally, a GOOD SB beats a "stock" 9x20 every way to sunday!" You're right about used gear, a person has to know what to look for, and their limits when it comes to repair. Not only in available tools and knowledge, but also in perseverance and body strength. Some things just have to be picked up. If they weigh too much, you need a helper. OK if you have one, not so OK if you work alone. Not everything can be picked up with an engine crane. You can get the knowledge in many cases with a little work, but sufficient tooling can be rough. If you have to pay a machine shop several hundred dollars to do work you can't handle you need to understand this up front. I've rebuilt auto engines, farm tractors, and some other fun things, so have a bit more experience that applies than some folks. The 9x20 lathes are NOT consistent, I've spoken with folks that had very few problems, and with folks that have had problems worse than mine. The faults I have heartburn with are NOT the fit and finish sort of problems - you can't polish everything and sell it for $895 after all, or with design limitations, everything has limitations. As you have created a group for these lathes I imagine that you have a better idea about the current state of QC at the plants. The faults that bother me are the gross defects in the manufacturing and inspection process. The design limitations are indeed mostly correctable, and have recently become quite well documented from a number of sources. Most of the "fit and finish" class of improvements are indeed fairly simple -- straightforward clean it up shine it up sort of work that is a pleasant way to spend a rainy day. I can't comment on the 7x10 lathes as I've only used one once at a meeting - other than to say that I was quite impressed with the unit I saw, and think that they are quite a lot of lathe for the money! Perhaps they are more consistent than the 9x20 units. Old gear is all over the map. Beaters and perfect condition units in the 9 inch size go from $300 to $3500. Funny thing is there are some great lathes for $500, and some beaters for $2000. At least when a person buys used, they tend to be careful to look very closely or seek advise from someone who can help them avoid getting ripped off. I think the basic reasons the imports are so popular are the same reasons I bought one. A) You can get one. Today or within a week. B) They are affordable. I don't think that folks are buying them because all of their faults are known and documented, although no doubt many folks buy them knowing what they are getting into courtesy of groups such as this one, and that's fine. It's the folks that buy one trusting Jet to provide a good lathe out of the box ( as I did) that get screwed and then angry or so frustrated that they give up and find something else to do. Some get lucky and use the web to get the information. As to a good SB being better than a stock 9x20, that is probably true in most cases, but there are some other considerations. If you like carbide, older SB lathes with sleeve type headstock bearings don't like to run at over around 1000 RPM, with the Workshop series having a max delivered speed of around 700 RPM with a standard spindle. I run the Jet at 1000 and 2000 quite often when using carbide. The Jet and other imports can cut metric or standard threads without much fiddling. Converting an older SB to metric may or may not be easy, depending on the pitch you need to cut. Converting a really old SB to metric may well be impossibly without fabricating some pieces yourself. Older SB lathes will have a lantern type toolpost. You'll likely want to make a four way or mount a QC toolpost. The Jet has a semi QC gearbox, many of the used SB lathes will be manual change gear style lathes. I guess it depends on if the 9x20 is one of the good "stock" units or one of the much work required "stock" units ;-) The basic accuracy of the Jet is excellent if you ignore metric leadscrews with imperial dials. It can cut straight and face square. Doing this well and repeatably with good finish is where the interesting parts begin. You can make a 9x20 into a pretty good lathe, it just may take some doing. To me, the largest problem with these lathes is that they are likely to be a first lathe, and without help from someone who knows the tricks and can tell the difference between machine failure and user failure it can get really frustrating. Without access to another lathe, possibly a mill, and a fair bit of tool rebuilding experience it can be really tough to sort out the problems with these lathes. Remember that in 1995 there was no 9x20 group, and a lot less web support for HSMs. CAMS - the once a month "club" - didn't exist, and our few folks are scattered over PA, MD, DC, and VA. I was the only guy with a lathe I knew. A person with no experience can easily end up with a used lathe that is worse than a new import, no doubt about it. If I hadn't spent years building and rebuilding assorted optical and electromechanical gear and doing a lot of auto repair I wouldn't have known where to start. When I bought this lathe I hadn't had a shop class since 1972, and hadn't touched a metal lathe other than (rarely) some large South Bends and such since high school, and had changed jobs and states so I couldn't get a hand from the guys I knew at the old manufacturing plant. I kept thinking that problems caused by the machine were problems caused by me. It took a lot of digging in books, trying things out, and devising tests and figuring out what to measure and how to measure it to decide when it was me goofing, and when the machine wasn't quite right. I certainly learned a whole lot, both about lathes and how to focus the energy of frustration. I asked myself "What am I doing wrong?" a lot. Sometimes it was me, often it was the lathe. The thing that really ticked me off was that I had no other lathe and no mill at the time, so I paid extra for the Jet name just to avoid these problems. I have other JET gear (from Taiwan), and think that all of the Taiwan Jet stuff I have is a good value for the price. I didn't expect a South Bend, Clausing, or Logan for the price paid. I just didn't expect to find grinding grit and casting sand under the cosmoline, to have to replace half nuts and lead screw, lap gibs, relieve dovetail corners, remove grit from inside assemblies, replace the compound because they didn't mill it before grinding so tools sat .093 high, deburr gears and the entire leadscrew (both the original and the replacement) keyway, polish shafts, polish and reduce the diameter of the spindle to let the headstock bearings be adjustable, have to replace ALL of the soft junk hardware, buy a MT3 reamer to clean up the inside of the headstock spindle, and on and on. With the exception of not having to deal with bed wear problems or repainting, my lathe was on par with a beater in terms of the amount of work needed to get a usable lathe. A grit laden sliding surface with burrs is the same problem, whether due to wear or poor manufacturing is beside the point. You'll notice I didn't mention finish/cosmetic items in the above paragraphs. I expect import handwheels to be a bit rough, the paint to be something other than auto show pretty, and a bit of tweaking up and smoothing to be in order. I just don't expect the head to strip out on a socket head cap screw on first removal, to find tapping swarf in the bottom of blind holes, or grinding grit in the dovetails. I don't consider gross failure to function as advertised or having hardware strip on the first use to be a "project", I consider it defective merchandise. When the leadscrew strips off the crest of the half nut threads the first time the nuts are closed, because they didn't deburr the keyway, it is a defect, not something that wants improvement. Making the knobs smoother, the graduations more legible, the fit nicer, the gears a bit quieter are all improvements to fit and finish. Having to use sockets and a vise to press apart the change gears from the shafts that they are supposed to slide on and off of are defects. Making them do it silky smooth is an improvement. Keyways in gears that are crooked are just lousy workmanship. Heck, I broach keyways that end up in the right place in a home shop. It's rather difficult to mess it up if you use the right tools. You expect a company like Jet to use factories that can at least match a home shop guy's basic tool skills. Jet was very good about warranty parts, and had most things in stock. The problem was that so many parts needed replacement. Getting the Taig for small projects actually opened my eyes to how many of the problems with the 9x20 were tool and not user deficiencies. The Taig is so good out of the box. Now I could compare the same tool cutting the same material at the same speed on the two lathes. Something a bit more concrete! Room for improvement is fine, a machine that is unusable out of the crate other than cleaning off the cosmoline and tweaking normal user adjustments is not! My Grizzly mill was cutting metal the same day it came into the shop. I've made some minor modifications and improvements, trammed the head, and added power feed, BUT - it worked as delivered. My Jet drill press poked holes just fine right out of the box. The Taig was a delight the first time I used it, a few minor improvement simply make it better. I looked for a good used lathe for about 6 years before getting the Jet, so I know that many of the old lathes out there are beaters. I spend two days grinding the bed on my 7 foot SB13 using home made fixtures, so I also know a bit about beaters as well as creampuffs. I've said a number of times that making chips today on darn near anything beats the heck out of wishing and waiting and not doing anything. Since you asked: I'll talk about the cost of a beater farther down ;-) The total cost to restore this particular SB9 was about $80: 3 cans Aircraft stripper - $15 4 cans Primer (Rustoleum professional gray primer) - $18 4 cans Color (Rustoleum professional light machine gray) - $20 a bit of spot putty - already had it but if not it would be about $4 Brass polish - $2.50 Perhaps 10 to 15 dollars in shop "stuff" - 10 sheets or so of assorted grit sandpaper, two stripping pads, some quantity less than 9 of scotch- brite pads, newspaper and tape for masking, single edged razor blades, odds and ends (e.g. hard wool felt for oil wicks) as expected for any tear down, repaint, and restore. 2 gallon cans of mineral spirits - $3 A new drive belt - $8 at the local auto parts store, I'm using a serpentine fan belt rather than a leather belt, this has worked well on other tools. If I have to buy leather and glue or lace up a "genuine" flat belt, that's fine, it remains to be seen. Dollars still to be spent: A good live center and tailstock drill chuck on a MT2 arbor. Yes, I can use the ones I have for the Jet, but I like each tool to be complete as far as basic tooling goes. The lathe was purchased for $500, including a lot of tooling, including steady rest, follower rest, three and four jaw chucks, face plate, dog plate, several dogs, about a dozen toolholders, complete change gear set, motor, jackshaft, a somewhat worn Skoda live center, several dial indicators (Starrett and old Brown and Sharpe) on various holders, and other random stuff. The owner built bench with drawers was included - hot riveted construction, a conversation piece at the least. It was cosmetically ugly. It is mechanically excellent in almost all ways, the only exception being the bit of scoring on the spindle, which could not be detected until the teardown. I could likely have ignored it, the spindle felt fine as it was, but cleaning it up is all part of doing the job right. TIME: About 40 hours actual work, including two hours work on the spindle and front bearing as there was a bit of swarf that had crept in and scored things a bit. Part of this time was making a lap for the headstock bore. I've spent more time that this sorting out faults on the Jet 920. The experience gained on the Jet really didn't map to this job, as SB made the parts right the first time, and the previous owner had treated the lathe well. With fresh oil added, this lathe could have been used as it was. I made one new headstock clamp plate, one of the originals had a crack. The original cracked one worked, but what's an extra half hour at the mill compared to knowing there is something waiting to fail left unfixed? About an hour went into making a 12-28 tap to clean out some holes I let some paint wick into, and making a tool to remove the handwheel hardware. I could have bought the tap mail order, but making one only took about 15 minutes as it only had to chase threads, not cut new ones, so a single flute made with a triangular file was adequate for the intended use. If a real tap was available locally I would have bought one, I just didn't want to stop the project for a week waiting on delivery. This lathe was in a guys basement from the time it came out of the crate in the late 30's (1939 I believe), and still has original scraping and frosting visible on most surfaces. Some quick sanity checks on the surface plate showed no problems, so for once a rebuild was actually just a restoration. No scraping needed. I didn't need to ask for any help from others other than my neighbors time to help unload the lathe from my truck as he had my engine crane tied up in his shop. POSSIBLE DOWNSIDE ISSUES of rebuilding used lathes. You can get in to a project that isn't worth doing. If the 13 inch lathe below was a 9 incher, the salvageable parts would have been sold and the bed scrapped. A new 9x20 import does beat a severely ragged SB9! Watch out for oddball lathes! Old SB 13 and 15 inch lathes have a non standard spindle taper, and may have odd leadscrew pitches, such as 6 TPI. Some of the 13 inchers have a 1 7/8-8 spindle nose, so you're going to machine any faceplates and backing plates from raw castings if you can't find them on the used market. If you can handle this weirdness fine. If not, move on to another lathe. Big lathes have BIG HEAVY parts. Don't buy one that needs a tear down unless you can deal with this. There are things that a normal human just can't lift. Don't hurt yourself, use an engine crane, a trolley crane, a boom on a three point hitch should you have a tractor, sufficient helpers, whatever. My neighbor is refurbishing a 15 inch South Bend from the 20's. There are castings in the overhead drive that he and I can't lift together. UPSIDE STORY - The above mentioned 15 inch lathe is in mechanically excellent condition. It is a lot of heavy work, but for the $300 purchase price plus about $400 for a second chuck and repainting materials he will have a 15 inch swing 6 foot bed lathe. It isn't quick change, but all of the gears are there. Pretty sweet if you need a lathe of that size! His job will involve about 50 hours work total. STORY OF A BEATER REBUILD: I have done a true beater SB13 with a 7 foot bed. It was rusted solid, the power feed worm teeth were at least 1/5 gone to rust where the wheel in the apron was pressed down into cow bedding in the bottom of a partially collapsed barn. We skidded it out with a front end loader. What was I ever thinking?!?!?! The ways were so worn that the saddle would rock at the headstock end. It took two days just to grind the bed using a die grinder, home brew fixtures and gages, and a lot of testing and tweaking. No local shop could (or would) plane a 7 foot bed. Trucking the bed back to SB was out of the question, shipping both ways and the cost of planing the bed for a lathe with many other problems was not on the list of options. Parts had to be made. Several cast iron tooth inserts were made and silver soldered into milled slots to replace missing teeth on the back gear. The carriage had to be electrolytically derusted to get it apart. The spindle bearing surfaces were a mess, so I rigged up a makeshift toolpost grinder and redid them. Testing with Plastigage confirmed the job was in spec. It isn't what I'd call 100 percent done yet, although it is under power and doing good work when a lathe of this size is needed. Looks nice with a good paint job on it. A job like this can easily turn into hundreds of dollars more than expected (thousands if you buy replacement parts, I was quoted $350 for just the worm, so I built it up with braze and recut the teeth). You need to be able to hump 100 pound castings around, work on them, and not screw up. You need a mill that can handle large hundred pound parts. The bed alone weighs about 500 pounds, just painting it is a real upper body workout to move it around and roll it over to get to each side. The legs are about 80 pounds each. This one was a real nightmare job that I nearly gave up on several times. I'll guess that at least 200 hours have gone into this lathe, with about 30 hours to go, mostly in gearmaking and making some new leadscrews. More than once it almost became a wood lathe! Before someone jumps in and says that most or all of these parts are available from industrial suppliers, I should mention this lathe was built in 1929. No, you can't get a matching worm wheel and bore it out to press fit or silver braze onto the original hub. I've done this on other machines. I have most, perhaps all, of the US gear manufacturers catalogs. You can't get a 44 tooth worm wheel in this pitch. 45 yes, 44 no. I'll likely make a hob to match the worm and make a whole new power feed worm/clutch part. South Bend has no parts or info available. You can get 5/8-10 LH acme leadscrew though, so there is a source for the threaded portion of the cross slide lead screw! I could have shaved 30 hours work off the job by cutting the bed down, but a 7 footer is pretty rare so it was worth the work. It is at the point that the bed is within 1.5 thou total up/down variation over the entire length, in/out to centerline variation is maybe 2 tenths - hard to measure this accurately on a lathe with bronze rather than roller bearings, and spindle runout is < 1 tenth. No sudden variations, just a nice smooth needle on the indicator. I'll chase a thou when needed without hesitation, chasing a tenth can become irksome. The 1.5 thou variation up/down ends up not meaning much of anything, it you do the trig for any work larger than around a half inch, you find the change in diameter from this source is down in the noise. For a one inch diameter workpiece, you find that the cutter moving down 1.5 thou translates to a finished diameter of 1.000005 rather than 1.000000. A twentieth of a tenth isn't on the list of things I'm going to loose sleep over. Variation that moves the carriage in or out is critical though, as any error translates to double the error in the diameter, and is a constant error independent of workpiece diameter. Cost to rebuild? Don't know. At least $600 so far, and I still have to make a backing plate (1 7/8-8 spindle - you can't buy these new although this thread does show up if you put out feelers to folks that won't shaft you when it appears) and fit a nice 10 or 12 inch 4 jaw. I already had most of the large tools - engine crane, > 1 inch wrenches, large sockets, 20 ton press, and still dropped a fast $100 at Sears for some sizes I needed. Ever noticed the cost of big wrenches? Was it worth it? To me, yes. Although I underestimated the effort required on this one a bit, I learned a lot and got to try out some new techniques. I have a 1200 lb lathe with 54 inches between centers and a 13 1/4 inch swing. The lathe cost $100 to buy. For a total cost of around $1000 including a new 4 jaw chuck, I have a large lathe that can cut 2 to 112 TPI including some of the oddball 1/2 thread pitches, and has power cross feed. I have a nice Rohm 6 incher with removable/reversible jaws I lucked into for $70 that will end up mated to this lathe, right now the original Cushman 3 jaw is on the lathe with freshly ground jaws. I need to make or find a threading dial, like most things on this lathe, it is an oddball as the lead screw is 6 TPI. Would it be worth it to you? Can't say! About half of the time on this lathe was interesting mechanical and machining work, the other half was nasty, dirty, and occasionally heavy labor that I didn't enjoy much after the first 40 hours or so. Getting something rusty but cool apart the first time is kind of neat, looking over a pile of rusty things still to get through can be demoralizing. By the time you're done, you really don't want to see something else old and rusty for a while. Hopefully this will give folks considering new import and old iron some things to watch out for, thing to look for in a good way, and a sense of just what they are getting into. If buying new import, I would still buy a 13 inch import lathe before I bought a 9 inch one, they seem to have some grasp of QC for these larger lathes, and the included tooling and chucks are a better grade. I'll have to get on the 9x20 list, no doubt there are some things I can learn, and perhaps share. Stan ------- Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 22:45:27 -0700 From: "gbowne" Subject: Re: Re: Spindle dead center problem [HEADSTOCK SPINDLE WITH STUCK ADAPTER IN THE MORSE TAPER] This is pretty close to the way I remove stuck, stubborn, frozen collets, taper drills, etc. from spindles. Pretty good sound info. Thanks, Gregory Bowne >>Snippit<< Regarding Robert McDonald's Morse Taper sleeve problem, there is a way it can probably be extracted without destroying it and without banging on it, thereby avoiding potential damage to the bearings and spindle. Firstly a few presumptions, if these figures do not match your situation adjust accordingly. Through bore of spindle 13/16", through bore of sleeve 1/2". Make a nose cap without threads, close fit over threads, internal shoulder such that it is supported by the face of the spindle but will allow the sleeve to pass through for at least 1/4", closed face except drill through 1/2". As MT3 has a nose diameter of 0.938" a likely bore for the shoulder is 0.950" or 0.975". Make an extraction tool, max OD 0.800" (if 25/'32 spindle bore try 0.770"). The point is it should be a close fit in the through bore to keep it centered and in axial alignment. On the forward end this will be turned down to barely pass through the bore of the sleeve, Maybe 0.490". The small diameter will have to pass through the sleeve from the tail end and extend in front of the spindle by the thickness of the nose cap plus enough to run on a washer and nut. Presuming your estimate of 2 1/2" for the sleeve length is correct and the nose cap extends in front of the spindle 1/2" the 1/2" extension should be 2.50" + 0.50" + 0.75", total 3.75". The 0.800 section should be long enough to not let the extension tip down before it passes through the sleeve, lets say at least 2", longer is better. Buy a 1/2" nut and washer, then thread the extension of the extraction tool to match the nut and long enough that the entire section of the tool extending in front of the nose cap is threaded (3/4" ?). If any of the above doesn't match your situation, adjust accordingly. Slip the extraction tool in from the tail of the spindle and through the sleeve, slide the nose cap over the extension and over the spindle threads, slip on washer, and run nut on. When all free play has been taken up, just start tightening the nut with a wrench, it should pull the sleeve out of the front of the spindle. You will need access to a lathe or to someone who can make these items for you. If you have a 3-jaw or 4-jaw chuck and can use your lathe with that set-up you can use it to do the work. The threading can be done single point or with a die. Hope this is helpful. Anthony Berkeley, Calif. ------- Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 11:58:06 -0400 From: "Ebower" Subject: Re: Spindle dead center problem A better way to try to remove a sleeve in tact is to spray inside the spindle bore with WD-40 or simular and then use a brass bar the size of the spindle bore from the back and try to tap it out first. Cutting the sleeve with a hacksaw and then taping it with a punch will destory the sleeve. Most lathes use a reducer in the headstock to allow for use of the same size centers as the tailstock. ------- Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 10:59:28 -0500 From: "M K (Skip)Campbell Jr." Subject: Re: Spindle dead center problem If you have not damaged the MT3 to MT2 adapter and if you don't have a lot of MT3 arbor tooling that you want or need to use on the lathe, why not just leave the adapter in and use MT2 tooling? If you really need to remove the adapter, you could make a dog leg punch by bending the end of a 1/2" rod, about the last inch, and grinding the outboard edge to fit the edge of the adapter with a lip inside so the punch will not touch the MT3 surface of the spindle. Soak with penetrating oil. Give a few good taps. If it doesn't budge, soak again overnight and tap again, working around the edge of the adapter. Don't hit it too hard. You could damage the bearings or strip the punch or adapter edge. Soak again over night and try it again. I have had success with this method with badly rusted tube in cast iron where I did not want to hit so hard as to break it. On the 4th day, tapping with the same force as previous days, the tube came loose. I also like the idea of tack welding a disk in the adapter to provide a surface to knock it out but I'd try the offset punch first. Good luck, Skip Campbell Ft. Worth, Texas ------- Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 00:43:13 -0500 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Long, both on wind and math WAS:Re: Shimming the head. [LATHE TAILSTOCK NOT CENTRED] To a great extent, the effect of a given amount of vertical offset of the tailstock is determined by the diameter of the work being done. I worked this out pretty carefully several years ago while making a fixture to allow me to regrind a badly worn 7 foot South Bend bed in my shop. The answers I got surprised me, to the point that unless you can rock the saddle or bind it hard over the range of a travel, I usually give the advice NOT to regrind a bed, provided there is not a lateral (horizontal) displacement of the cutter with respect to spindle centerline. A thou in and out of the cutter gives 2 thou variation in diameter. Not a good thing. An offset tailstock front to rear (tailstock set over) will give twice the error in the finish diameter. A vertical offset generates less error than you would expect. It is a non zero error, but things have to be pretty far out of kilter before it ruins your day in most tasks. The original post stated the offset was a few hundredths. That would be quite a bit. Any chance the post should have said thousandths? If it is in fact a few hundredths, I'd suggest the tailstock or headstock are out of spec, or one or both centers are incorrectly ground. If a few thou, and not a matter of the centers being off center, ignore it or cut down the tailstock. It won't take long to do this, I'd think a few minutes at most with some 400 grit oiled down to the bed, and sliding the tailstock back and forth on the abrasive would do the job. I'd also ask the method used to determine the offset, getting a really accurate test of this requires an accurate test bar held between centers. If you hate math, here's the bottom line. If the centerline of a workpiece raises 11 thou over the length of the cut, and the target finish diameter is 1/2 inch, you'll see a half thou of taper over the length of the cut. 11 thou is quite a bit of offset. The larger the diameter of the work, the less a vertical offset contributes to any taper. If you want to see how I got here, the math follows. ASSUMPTIONS: 1) If the cutter drops x below the starting centerline, it has the same effect as the workpiece centerline raising x above the starting centerline. Simply stated, it doesn't matter if the cutter lowers 5 thou over 2 inches of cut (worn bed), or if the work is inclined between centers so that the workpiece centerline raises 5 thou (headstock or tailstock center high). 2) The workpiece is of large enough diameter, and the cutting edge sharp enough, that a few thou above or below centerline does not change the cutting angles sufficiently to result in different cutting behavior of the tool. Obviously if you have the effective cutter height change by 30 thou while cutting a 50 thou diameter this entire explanation is completely invalid, as you would go from cutting to being completely clear of the work! 3) When determining worst case taper for a given amount of cutter to centerline vertical variation, the staring point of the cut is dead on center. This simplifies things a bit, if you think through the results of starting above centerline, and ending below centerline, you will end up cutting a very shallow concave surface over the length, rather than a taper. 3a) The starting diameter is exactly the desired diameter, so that the distance from the nose of the tool to the effective centerline of the work is the adjacent side of a right triangle. 3b) The cutter drop (or rise) is the opposite side of a right triangle. 3c) The actual diameter produced is the hypotenuse of a right triangle. 3d) The juncture of the adjacent side and the hypotenuse is at the effective centerline of the work. Yes, this means I've flipped the right triangle from the conventional representation. It's upside down, and the vertical or opposite side is to the left. 4) The tailstock and headstock centers are perfectly aligned horizontally, i.e. no taper is being created by tailstock set over. 5) Flex in workpiece and tooling is not considered, the work and lathe are perfect, so only changes in effective cutter height effect the resulting diameter of the workpiece. 6) Tool wear is discounted. If you have a tool wearing fast enough to generate significant taper, you have the wrong tool, and no doubt a very poor finish on your cut! Now dust off old Mr. Pythagoras, and give this a thought. If the cutter drops one thou while cutting a one inch diameter piece of work, what is the change in diameter of the work piece? a^2 + b^2 = c^2 Let a = target radius of the work (0.5 inches, or diameter / 2) Let b = cutter vertical drop, in absolute numbers, i.e. always positive as it will always result in an increase in diameter, assuming the cutter setting in a above is dead on center at the starting point of the cut (assumption 3a). Let c = the actual radius of the cut workpiece, or actual diameter / 2. Quick check with no vertical variation in cutter height: a = .5000, b = 0 .5000 ^ 2 + 0.0000 ^ 2 = 0.2500 SQRT (0.2500) = 0.5000, therefore diameter (c) is 1.000 inch. No surprises so far. Now, lets introduce 1 thou drop: Again, a = 0.5000, b = 0.001 0.5000^2 + 0.0010^2 = c^2 0.2500 + 0.000001 = 0.250001 SQRT(0.250001) * 2 = 1.000002 diameter or if you prefer, two millionths of an inch over target. Now do it for 1/4 inch diameter: 0.1250 ^ 2 + 0.0010 ^ 2 = c^2 0.015625 + 0.000001 = 0.0156256 SQRT ( 0.015626) = 0.125004, ( times 2 for diameter) giving a diameter of 0.250008. With this rather windy set up, lets figure out how much the cutter has to drop to generate a half thou error for a 1/2 inch target D. c = 1/2 Actual D(0.5005), or 0.25025 a = 1/2 Expected D (0.5000) or 0.2500 c^2 - a^2 = b^2 0.25025 ^ 2 - 0.2500 ^ 2 = b^2 0.062625 - 0.0625 = b^2 0.000125 = b^2 0.011183 = b, or simply, the change in effective cutter height has to be about 11 thou to generate a half thou error in a target diameter of 0.500. Repeating the exercise for a one inch diameter show that the cutter height must change by just over 15.8 thou to generate a taper of half a thou. Cheers, Stan ------- Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 22:50:02 -0800 [taigtools] From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Subject: Re: Re: Shimming the head. If the tailstock is offset to the side (offset horizontally) then it will cut a taper directly in proportion to the offset. This means that is you have a 6" long piece, and the tailstock is offset horizontally by .010 then it will cut a taper that is .010 less in diameter at one end than the other. If the tailstock is offset vertically then it will not have a corresponding taper, rather it is a pythagorean function of the diameter of the work vs the offset. If you do a graphical analysis of this you will see it has much less of an effect than horizontal offset. I should make some drawings up showing this. In other words, if in the same example, the tailstock is offset .010" higher at one end of a 6" piece (in other words the tip of the tool is .010 lower at one end than the other), that is, for examples sake, 1/2" diameter, then it will cut The square root of (.5" squared plus .010 squared), or .5000999" [WRONG -- SEE NEXT MESSAGE] See our web pages http://www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 22:55:07 -0800 From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Subject: Re: Re: Shimming the head. Why do I do math at 10:52 at night? It is a function of the radius of the workpiece, not the diameter, then doubled to find the diameter. it should be 2 times (square root (.25" squared + .010 squared)) .50039984" larger diameter See our web pages http://www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 02:32:01 -0500 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Long, both on wind and math WAS:Re: Shimming the head. Hi Dan; You are right, it isn't intuitive. It took me a while to figure it out and satisfy myself that I wasn't overlooking something really silly. We are so used to tail stock setover generating a constant rate of taper that it feels weird. The REALLY weird one is that if the cutter starts above centerline and ends below centerline (or vice versa), you get a concave surface on your cylinder, thinnest at the point where the cutter crosses the centerline. That took a few minutes to realize. Now I'm just trying to figure out some really cool application for such trivia :-) I had a very strong driving force making me think about this situation, but from the view of the cutter height varying as a result of a less than perfect bed rather than from a high or low tailstock. An old SB13 with a seven foot bed came my way, in very bad shape. There was severe wear ( 18 thou or better) over about 4 inches of the carriage ways by the headstock. I had to decide if the bed could be salvaged without shipping it out to be planed and ground. If not, I would have cut it down and ended up with a shorter bed 13 inch lathe, or converted it to a very heavy wood lathe, as it was such a beater that there was no way I would spend the money on shipping the bed to a shop. I couldn't find a local shop that could plane a 7 footer. The question became quickly one of how good does it really have to be, and if there was a fair chance that I could meet the requirements. The carriage would rock and bang near the headstock when your grabbed its ears, so ignoring the wear just wasn't an option. Because SB uses 3 vees, flipping the bed end for end was out also, although I sure tried to figure a way. Using a die grinder with a cup stone on some shop cobbled fixtures, I reground the carriage vees to spark out over all but an inch or so at the headstock end. Leaving a section of the original and unworn ways gave a reference surface to set grinding wheel angles with. 2 days later, I had the bed ways ground to the point that less than 1.5 thou variation vertically, and less than 2 tenths horizontally, was indicated. I ground ONLY the ways for the carriage. A few passed with Roloc disks to smooth the slightly rough surface from the grinding, and a few passes across the tops of the carriage vees to cut them down to something near the normal flat top profile finished the way reconditioning. The carriage needed some mill work to allow for the drop in its altitude, but nothing major. Naturally the gearbox and leadscrew had to be shimmed down by about 19 thou to get things back in line, a few gears needed teeth made and silver soldered in, some shafts and gears had to be made, but the old beast works. Still a restoration in process, but a working long bed lathe for about $600, most of it in tools and materials, as the lathe was only $100. I'm planning on getting a 4 jaw Bison 12 inch chuck and backing plate when money allows. Since I have a Taig (naturally), and 2 nine inch lathes, the large lathe is used for only big stuff. Nice thing here is that the work diameter is usually large, rarely a bore less than an inch, and rarely a workpiece less than 4 inches in diameter, so error from a thou or two variation in cutter height gets lost in the noise. I haven't had the need so far to fabricate long shafts with precise diameter over their entire lengths anyway, the biggest thing done so far was a telescope pier. Stan ------- Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 01:06:25 -0600 [atlas_craftsman] From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Re: Slickey Stuff joekott1 wrote: >I believe the stuff you are talking about is called Turcite. I think >this is a brand name so there might be other terms for it. We have >used it to rebuild the ways on some CNC machines where I work. >--- In atlas_craftsmanx~xxyahoogroups.com, tcaudlex~xxv... wrote: >>do any of you guys know what they call the new high tech plastic >material that you can put on the ways of machine tools? I have heard >it mentioned. I want to reduce the friction on the ways of my >Mill/drill prior to installing new zero backlash lead screws. Where >can you get some information on the product? Turcite is a solid material made by Busak & Shamban, their US distributor is Interstate Plastics, at http://www.interstateplastics.com/meta/fmtur.htm I think they also have castable materials. now. But, there is also Moglice, which is cast in-place between the ways and the sliding part. Devitt Machine http://www.moglice.com/ is the distributor of this line of materials. they have about 6 different versions, from water-thin to putty that will stick to the underside of parts. They have a 20 or so page book detailing the applications, techniques, etc. I am going to do a large lathe carriage with Moglice in the next month or so. Jon ------- Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 11:09:30 -1000 (HST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: Check w/Michael Morgan at URL--Re: Scraping On Wed, 21 May 2003, Art Volz wrote: > Michael Morgan is back in business: http://www.machinerepair.com . > See his books, video and tools at above URL. (NB: Michael's URL was > simply found with a Google search.) Michael Morgan is where I got my stuff from. I already had a number of books from Lindsay on scraping before I got the stuff from Michael Morgan. Even so, I'm 100% happy with it. The book didn't necessarily have that much additional information, except in the availability of tools. Most of the Lindsay books assume you're making scrapers from worn-out files. For small jobs, that might well be doable. But I'm very happy I got an honest-to-goodness scraper. It's got a longer handle than any file I've ever used, and seriously relieves the back strain. The video was well done. It contained some information none of the Lindsay books had (probably because when the Lindsay books were written, it was assumed you knew what you were doing when it came to scraping, so a lot was left unsaid.) One of the more important points in the video was pacing. I was under the impression scraping was this turtle-slow process where each cut was a deliberate action. Turns out scraping that way leads to a non-uniform surface. Getting a good rhythm going, but still keeping it slow enough that each stroke is a planned action, works much better. I wound up going about 60-80 strokes a minute. He also shows two ways to do flaking. I tried one of them, and it works quite well. I'd like to learn roll-flaking, but I'd need to get some additional blades for my scraper to grind the smaller radii on them. Bump flaking uses the same blade you use for scraping, so that's the one I tried. All in all I'm a happy customer. Tom ------- Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 14:22:25 -0500 From: "Scott S. Logan" Subject: RE: Check w/Michael Morgan at URL--Re: Scraping Art, and others: While I have no personal experience with Mr. Morgan, there have been MANY people posting to RCM that he is NOT shipping. The web site you reference, still shows a straight edge sold out and "next batch will be cast in mid July of 2002." All the pages I looked at have not been updated since at least last July. PLEASE, if you place an order, at the very least, call him first, and find out if he is actually shipping. Also remember, if you use a credit card, it is against the law for anyone to charge your credit card without shipping, except in very specific, unusual circumstances. And even then, the merchant CERTAINLY should advise you ahead of time that he will charge your card in advance of shipment. Caveat Emptor! Message from Scott Logan Support the anti-Spam amendment sslx~xxlathe.com Join at http://www.cauce.org/ ------------------------------- Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 01:03:21 -0000 From: "mikehenryil" Subject: Check w/Michael Morgan at URL--Re: Scraping The last time I checked there is no phone number listed on his web site. Email seems the only way to contact him and that is a bit iffy, at best. FWIW, everything I ordered from him was eventually received, although the straight edge took around 6-8 months to arrive and there was at least one promise that it had shipped early on in that period. I've heard that he's had a lot of family/financial problems and can certainly sympathise, but I wouldn't send any money that I couldn't afford to lose and definitely not for anything that was needed right away. Mike, near Chicago ------------------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 17:33:29 EST From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: shaper restoration question In a message dated 1/30/2004, aragratx~xxnetscape.net writes: > Well, you didn't ask me, but, if you did, I would say that scraping is > the only way that I have found to get bad rust off of machined ways and > such. Sandpaper just loads up. Rust remover - no luck. Penetrating oil > won't penetrate. First used an old file ground square on the end. Then > I found some hunks of carbide that I used. First held them with > Vise-Grips. Now I have made a holder for them. agreed ...unfortunately , have had to do this more than a few times..........but practice first on scrap , maybe using mild steel /brass bar.....then grind teeth off end of file , grind end at 90 deg w/ a slight radius on rt./lt edges to keep from digging in ...hold down w/left hand at front, & push w/ right ,at angle that works best for u ...( when scraping to REMOVE metal, hard pressed to take off more than a tenth /stroke) ....keep ur scraper stoned sharp! best wishes docn8as ------- Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 09:45:59 -0500 From: xlch58x~xxswbell.net Subject: Re: Parting out ??? [atlas_craftsman] gto69ra4x~xxaol.com wrote: >> I've posted about this on various groups. It drives me crazy--they're ruining the machine landscape. Guys realize they can make a few (not a lot more, unless you're selling a QC box) more bucks parting out a lathe than selling whole. So they get (usually mint, recent) good lathes and sell them in chunks. The biggest problem is that the folks buying the parts are keeping their worn-out clunkers running. The most critical wear parts of the nice parts donor (bed, saddle, etc) never find a buyer and are scrapped. So both the number of surviving machine tools and their quality is reduced. GTO(John) << There would be no market for the parts if there weren't machines that needed the parts. Why are twenty busted machines preferable to fifteen working ones? The only issues that bother me are that many of the lathes being rebuilt are not worth it and the ones being parted look pretty good, so things may be going the wrong way. The other issue is that the beds aren't worth shipping so get scrapped. Damn shame, since the Atlas beds with their flat parallel ways can be more useful than many othe lathe beds for re purposing. Finally, the one that really annoys me are the timken machines that get parted so someone can upgrade their perfectly serviceable babbit machine, and the babbit headstock get scrapped. There is nothing wrong with a babbit headstock, and given the light use these machines get in home workshops, the babbit machines have a good chance of not only outliving the owners, but outliving the timken replacement. I found a great babbit machine for my 85 year old neighbor. He briefly considered replacing the headtock with a timken model. I told him frankly that he didn't have a chance in hell of wearing out that babbitt headstock in the years he had left, and should start making chips, not a mess of a good machine. Charles ------- Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 11:43:07 -0500 From: Bill Aycock Subject: Re: Parting out ??? One big problem that is not mentioned is the problem with shipping. Many parts and sub-assemblies can be sent UPS, but most full lathes can only go freight. Freight is a problem for many of us. When I get a freight shipment, it usually comes to a terminal over 50 miles away (really). I live east (20+) miles from Huntsville, AL. The terminals for Hsv are all on the west side, by about 25-30 miles. All the local terminals (near me) are "dedicated", in that they only handle certain types of freight. Many lines go through here, but none stop. One source of material I needed had the only Alabama terminal served by her only freight line in Mobile, which is 450 miles from me. I have a pretty good 618 to sell. My only options are to sell it for local pick-up(Severely limiting my market), crate and get to a terminal 50 miles away (I'm 78), or Part-out. None of these is a good choice. Bill Aycock W4BSG Woodville, Alabama ------- Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 20:55:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Steve Subject: Re: Gap Bed Lathe? [atlas_craftsman] The book "practical ideas for metalworking operations, tooling and maintenance", which appears to be a compilation of useful tips sent in by readers of American Machinist, one machine shop built a headstock out of plate steel welded into a box and drove it off the original headstock. The objective of this excercise was that by moving the headstock down, the worn section of the bed near the headstock was now out of play. ========================================================================= REMEMBER, MUCH MORE STUFF YOU NEED TO KNOW TO REPAIR OR RESTORE OR USE A MACHINE IS LOCATED IN THE OTHER FILES HERE. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 06:19:51 -0600 From: "Mario L Vitale" Subject: Re: RE: Cold shops [Metal_Shapers group, but this advice applies to all machines.] Charles, I'll let others respond to your question about about "cold shops", but I want to make a recommendation regarding the shaper... the same recommendation I always make when someone says "I'm gonna completely tear it down." My recommendation is, DON'T!... at least not right away. If you are like me, and I suspect many others in this group, you have far more projects than time (even if you're retired). It sounds like getting this shaper running has not been near the top of your "to do" list, meaning your not in any hurry. If this is the case, and you "tear it completely down", here's what is likely to happen. You'll get half of it dismantled, and it will be taking up a valuable portion of real estate in shop (both on the floor and any other horizontal surface). Then you'll see a set of plans for building a simple taper attachment for your Hendy lathe, so you'll start that project. And then your neighbor comes over with a rusty, cross threaded bolt from his exhaust manifold, to see if you had a die to chase the thread, and you decide it would be easier to just turn a new bolt...you've been wanting to use those little pieces of hex stock that were in the bottom of the box that came with the Hendy. Then your lawn mower dies and you decide, "wouldn't it be cool to build my own engine for the lawnmower!?" Of course that's just before SWMBO decides the kitchen needs painting...this weekend! And just think about what happens when you decide to make the quick change tool holders and decide that the shaper would be perfect for that project. Let's see now, the base is now outside under a tarp, there is a box of parts under one of the work benches, you know where the clapper assembly is, because just last week, you knocked it off the shelf trying to get to your indexing head, that was behind it... Well, you get the picture. Seriously, it makes a whole lot more sense to just start soaking things down with a good grade of penetrating oil and regularly try coaxing it back to life ...lightly tapping, gentle application of pry bars, etc. Only dismantle what you can reassemble in the same session ...or at least in a day or two. Once you get things to move you can see what really needs to be done to make it a useable machine for your purposes ...or whether it is even worth doing. And if you decide that it's more than you want to do, it will be easier to find someone who might be interested in taking on a project. That would, hopefully, delay it's ultimate fate ... the blast furnace. Best of luck, Mario ------- Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 15:59:24 -0500 From: John Ruth Subject: FW: [OldTools] Cold chisels GG's: First, John L. Odom wrote: >>> I have done a lot of things with chisels and files >> that would be impossible without machine work today. Then, that Old Millrat Jim wrote: > I still have my apprentice made "other" chisels and punches. I run > across a cape chisel or a diamond now and then, and I think that the > rest of the world does not know what they are. To both of which, at the risk of "me too-ism", I want to say AMEN!!! Especially to Jim's comment, because cold chisels frequently go unsold at the Flea Market, and rarely command a price higher than $1. One correspondent on another list described the cold chisel as "The poor man's metal shaper". (A reference to the machine tool called a Metal Shaper.) Old timers could make a keyway in a shaft with a cape chisel and a 6" rule with two gauge attachments similar to the ones used to lay out stairs with a steel square. They could make a round drilled hole square with a diamond point cold chisel. Just about anything might be undertaken by chipping. The whole story is too long to relate here, but my father his friend once used a cold chisel to make the center hole and the "bolt circle" of a steel automobile wheel larger so they could get home without an expensive tow. It was a fine job - the hole was remarkably true. Dad showed me how to split a nut with a cold chisel when I was a teen. Man, I can't even count how many times that trick has come in handy. In my flea market travels, I buy any old cold chisel I can find if it is one I don't have or it is an "upgrade" for one which I do. What is a "complete set" ? They come in sizes from about 1/4" to over an inch, and in MANY shapes. I doubt I will ever have a "complete set" because I can't say that I've seen every type! [Sigh! Yet another slippery slope!] There's a roundnose type that is rare and underappreciated. The nose is a cone cut off at an angle so that the face of the bezel looks like an elipse. There are also ones that look kinda like a cape chisel, but the flat part is off to the left or the right of the shank. I cannot figure out what these were for, beyond the fact that they work right up against an obstruction. Any galoot without a few cold chisels handy is not completely equipped! Don't know what shapes are still made besides straight and cape, but there's still New Old Stock to be found at your local industrial supply house. John Ruth ------- Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 16:48:34 -0800 From: James Thompson Subject: Re: [OldTools] Cold chisels > On 1/9/08, MillRat James wrote: >> I still have my apprentice made "other" chisels and punches. I run >> across a cape chisel or a diamond now and then, and I think that the >> rest of the world does not know what they are. On Jan 9, 2008, at 12:15 PM, curt seeliger wrote: > Sure we do. They're cape chisels, duh. Never heard of them before, > and google makes them look like dull diamond shaped chisels so I don't > know what they're used for either, and I doubt I could recognize one > in the wild. But we sure know what they are. > So, do we need them for turning old sawblades into useful scrapers and > blades and such? cur See John Ruth's post for even more of the uses of cold chisels. Repairing machinery when it could not be removed for service often entailed using a variety of hand tools including cold chisels and punches. Just get it fixed so the factory could get going again. One of the main uses for cape chisels was cutting oil grooves into new bearing surfaces. First the bearings had to be scraped with those funny looking tools with the curved end that are often described on the Bay as wood carving tools. (I still have mine.) There is an art to sharpening those scrapers. Once the shaft would fit the bearing correctly, oil grooves were cut in the bearing to allow the shaft to float on a film of oil. Shafts must not actually come into metal to metal contact with the bearing or the bearing will be destroyed. Cutting oil grooves is an art that must be learned. Just any old groove will not work. Large gears were often supplied rough cast, and Millwrights had to match the teeth for proper contact. Most folks do not know that 3 teeth in each gear must always be in contact with each other. One tooth contact is a certain disaster because one tooth cannot carry the load alone. Fitting a 12 foot diameter bull gear for proper contact with its pinion is a real chore, and it was done with Prussian blue, chisels, scrapers, and files. I worked on one such gear setup for the new BOSP furnace at Kaiser Steel in 1958. The gears rotated the furnace so it could pour off the molten steel. My first experience with a big gear. Like John Ruth, l like cold chisels too, and I always look in the rust pile to see if there is one I don't have. I rarely use one any more, but I still like them :>) Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA. ------- [Solving the replacement of a worn bolt in a now oversize hole.] Re: 10mm Round Bar - work-around [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "indianfourrider" indianfourriderx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:34 am ((PDT)) Friends: Thanks to all for sharing sources with me. 3 feet (or 1 meter!) of 12L14 10mm round bar still seemed a bit pricey to me, so the search for an alternative began. The application requires a closer fit than 3/8" because it is one of the main engine mounts for a 200# V-twin motor. A previous owner had done just that - replacing the factory 10mmx285mm hardened bolt with a piece of hardware store 3/8" galvanized rod, on which they had cut about 1.5" of SAE threads - with a die - on each end. This had the effect of negating much of the vibration-dampening of the factory rubber mounting system. Another effect was chewing up the integral mounting bosses in the aluminum engine cases since the .5+/-mm difference allowed the engine to move around a bit! The best solution would be reaming the bosses and pressing in bushings to restore the correct fit, but that would require pulling the motor - at least 4 hours to remove and another 4 to install. That's going to wait until I have another reason to yank the motor! The 'work-around' was to clean up the holes with an adjustable reamer and make bushings to fit 3/8" rod, since I still want to use that as one of the mounting points for highway pegs. (Hence the concern for vibration!) I had some shorts of 1/2" DOM with a perfect 3/8" ID and was able to machine the OD to .405" which gave me a decent fit in the cleaned-up bosses. I also had to make bushings for the rubber mounting collars and opted to make new spacers specific for the 3/8" rod. All that remains is to thread both ends of the rod and reassemble. Then I'll see if I'm as clever as I think I am right now! If anyone's interested I can post a couple of pictures. Thanks again, Jim ------- Re: TH54 back up on its own feet. Refinish continues [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net jtiers Date: Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:33 pm ((PDT)) "Refinishing" is cute, but not required, and certainly does nothing for the actual performance of the machine. It will still be worn, sloppy and turning tapers with the very best paint finish you can put on it. Spend time on fixing defects, not on pretty finishes. Perhaps it is wise to consider that the machine will get used...... the paint is a functional part, not a decorative addition. Paint is for preventing rust, and the "high gloss" isn't needed to do that. If you enjoy painting machines, go ahead. I won't spoil your fun, but do consider the downside to painting... Shiny new paint serves only to cover defects. It alerts the savvy buyer to look carefully for the cracked castings and worn out parts which the "Rustoleum restorer" blew off. It is a marker often accompanied by crude "frosting" of the ways, possibly done with a screwdriver or angle grinder and intended to make the machine appear showroom new to the tyro. Good new paint LOWERS the value of a machine to me...... It makes me certain that there is some deceit involved, that the machine has a fatal defect, or disguised wear, and if I cannot find it prior to purchase, I may find it later.... so I need to pay LESS for the machine to cover my risk. When you re-work a machine, pay attention to scraping and alignment, not paint. Paint for function. Most people do the reverse. I know this is not a popular viewpoint, but that's tough. JT ------- NOTE TO FILE: There was a bit of back and forth about clean versus greasy equipment and whether new paint was a good or bad thing on a machine being considered for purchase. [Such also demonstrates that e-mails can easily be misinterpreted and plain talk can seem to be an insult. All the more reason to use emoticons such as :-) to make feelings clearer.] ------- Re: TH54 back up on its own feet. Refinish continues Posted by: "catboat15x~xxaol.com" Date: Mon Aug 24, 2009 8:58 am ((PDT)) Children! Stop your arguments! It is your lathe, and if you want to paint it red or line it with fur collars go ahead. If you want to leave it grungy and oil covered go ahead and use it to make little pieces out of big pieces. The main thing is be sure and count your fingers before starting to run the lathe. There should always be the same number of fingers on each hand when you are done. If any seem to be leaking red stuff you made an error in operation of the tool. John Meacham Littlerock, California 12 inch Atlas lathe, Mini-mill, band saw and a rusty file. ------- Re: What I found during my lathe refinish. [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Mon Aug 24, 2009 7:01 pm ((PDT)) Robert Silas wrote: > Jon, How did you regrind the V-ways????? > Even my 700# 13" lathe is much more rigid than the Atlas 10", still > we can do a lot of work, and I did, on those 10" hobby lathes. Yeah, I did a lot on a 10" Atlas, and later a 12" Craftsman. But, the Sheldon is truly a different world! I cut some ball-joint sockets 1" in diameter. I drilled first with a 7/8" drill, then used a form tool made from 1/2" MoMax lathe tool stock with a 1/2" radius hand ground on it. I aligned the cutter and just plowed it straight in. It made a soft crinkling sound as the chips curled inward on the cutter. The only sound from the lathe was the slight increase in gear noise from the reduction box on the motor. A cut like this, with over a half-inch wide chip, would have set an Atlas machine dancing on the floor, and my neighbors would have heard the racket. I have a web page on it, at http://jelinux.pico-systems.com/sheldon.html I started with a Soviet master precision level and a Michael Morgan straightedge, which I scraped in, using a 24 x 36" surface plate. I made a test carriage that fit the Vee and flat and allowed me to ride the level down the bed. I later got a Taylor-Hobson Talyvel electronic level that makes all this much easier, as it settles within a couple seconds after moving it. First I built a rig with a toolpost grinder attached to the compound slide and mounted it to the tailstock base. I towed it down the tailstock ways which were in pretty good shape with a small gear motor. That really should have been good enough, but I had to do more! So, I used the Talyvel on the test carriage to find the broad high and low spots on the ways, and then used the straightedge and Canode dye to find the local high spots. I then ground the high spots down with the Cratex white muslin-bonded polishing wheels. Then, repeat, ad infinitum. I got it down to about .0003" over the entire 6 feet of lathe bed. I then used a well-lubed bench stone to polish the ways a bit and clean up the roughness. I pretty much saturated the stone, so it was kind of a lapping operation. I then applied Moglice, a low-friction castable way liner material that is basically epoxy and Molybdenum disulfide to the saddle and cast it in place to the bed. Jon ------- Re: What I found during my lathe refinish. Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:19 pm ((PDT)) >> A cut like this, with over a half-inch wide >> chip, would have set an Atlas machine dancing on the floor, >> and my neighbors would have heard the racket. jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net wrote: > And that is no lie...... it would make a much heavier Logan > lathe jump around also.... Yeah, when I did this, I expected some trouble, and when there was not even the slightest HINT of any vibration, I knew I had completed the rebuild and resored the lathe to the best performace possible. It was certainly an acid test for any lathe that could ever fit in my basement. > Although, I am quite certain that the unmentioned crosslide etc > must have also gotten some attention after the bed..... a nice > new tight machine is a LOT more tolerant of chatter-producing > operations than a loosey-goosey worn one... Yes, I rebuilt the cross slide too, although it had very little wear. The compound is totally massive, a little BIGGER than the Atlas 10" lathe's cross slide. I just keep it fairly tight, I don't use it much. > I will admit, though that with a spring tool, even an Atlas might > have made that cut. Since it was a boring operation, I'm not sure how well a spring tool would work. I've never used one of these, but the concept seems workable. Someday, I suppose I ought to try one. I assume you trade surface finish for control of vibrations. Of course, vibrations will REALLY wreck your finish. Jon ------- Re: What I found during my lathe refinish. Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:40 am ((PDT)) Robert Silas wrote: > Jon, This required the most patience I ever heard fixing a lathe. For > me ... I buy another lathe, I would not have this remarkable accuracy. > What about sending out the bed for grinding??? If you haven't seen my pictures of the back yard after the 21,000 Lb Lull lift truck sank up to both axles TWICE, you should check them out. Then you'll know why I didn't want to go through this mess again. My back yard still has some trenches in it from moving the lathe in 2001. The bed of this lathe is totally massive, probably near a full ton! I asked around, and I couldn't find anyone in the area that had a big enough grinder for it. I suspect GKN might, but I didn't want to pay Boeing shop rate for the work. I'd have the first $100K Sheldon lathe. If I had ANY idea how long it would have taken, I would have just done the towed toolpost grinder trick and maybe a little hand touch-up, and it probably would have been good enough for me. But, NO, once you get into something like this, you start getting anal about every little bump, and you want to make it TOTALLY flat, until your tools can't detect any more bumps. Eventually, you have to step back and say it is good enough. Jon ------- Re: What I found during my lathe refinish. Posted by: "Russ Kepler" russx~xxkepler-eng.com Date: Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:45 am ((PDT)) On Tuesday 25 August 2009 Ron Gerlach wrote: > I enjoyed reading your write-up on the Sheldon bed rebuild. Seeing the > trial and error attempts and the eventual solutions was a good bit of > information. I especially liked your tool post grinder jig to grind the > bed. I'll have to remember that one. Not to discount what Jon did and/or went through, but when I faced the same problem on a Monarch 10EE I cheated: I took it off and had a commercial grinder handle the bed (and cross slide ways, cross slide, top of saddle and taper attachment). It cost a couple of days in Dallas and $660 for grinding and they gave me back a bed that was within .0001" all around. Of course there's a lot of work after that point - refitting the tailstock base to serve as an indicator base to scrape the headstock back into alignment, aligning the saddle so the cross slide was flat to the ways and perpendicular to the spindle axis then Moglicing into place and building up the cross slide ways with Multifil to get the cross slide nut and screw back into alignment. In the end I have a 10EE that works to original specs (or maybe a bit better) with an "almost as good as new" paint job (heck, if I was going to put a couple grand into it I may as well splurge and put $100 of paint on it). After doing it all I wouldn't want to do it on an Atlas, unless it was some labor of love. There's no point in putting a few thousand dollars in effort into a thousand dollar lathe - unless the labor has no cost. At that point you don't have to make a cost/benefit decision. ------- Re: What I found during my lathe refinish. Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:14 pm ((PDT)) On Tuesday 25 August 2009 Ron Gerlach wrote: > I especially liked your tool post grinder jig to grind the > bed. I'll have to remember that one. At the time I did it, it was new to me, but a logical solution to what tools I had at hand. Since then, I have heard of the same technique used by others. It certainly worked well, since the tailstock ways were in good shape. Jon ------- Re: What I found during my lathe refinish. Posted by: "Ron Gerlach" r7734gx~xxhotmail.com Date: Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:44 pm ((PDT)) Russ: I did a similar thing with my Hardinge T10 lathe. Had the bed ground and then used Turcite to build up the carriage. I scraped the carriage, crossfeed and compound as well as the tailstock to bring everything into alignment. It is now a sweet machine which, by the the way, I also painted so it is now accurate and shiny. I still use the Atlas for a lot of things but the Hardinge is my first choice when I need accuracy or good finish on tough materials. I may tackle a bigger lathe in the future and the prospect of having the bed ground may not be possible or economically possible so I will tuck the tool post grinder idea into my memory banks for future reference. Ron ------- Re: How to repair a mark on a VMC table? [MyMyford] Posted by: "freddiefroggie" donaldjsmx~xxaol.com Date: Sun Sep 6, 2009 7:03 am ((PDT)) Good afternoon engineers, Thank you one and all for responding to my enquiry regarding possible ways to repair or disguise the hole which the previous owner of my VMC mill managed to drill in the table. I found the various suggestions very interesting; as follows: 1. "Cover the hole with a vice, forget it and make some swarf" This is probably the advice I should adopt, and get on with the work, but I'm not like that. 2. "Fill the hole with a small brass plug, make a very small hole in the top of the plug and stamp the word `oil' on the table beside it." This, I thought was the best answer of the lot and amused me no end; but on this occasion I think I'll proceed with another sort of repair. My good friend Archie is however considering drilling a hole in his Centec table so that he can fit one of these special oilers. 3. Four suggestions to plug it with iron. 4. Two suggestions to plug it with steel. 5. One suggestion to fill it with weld. 6. Six suggestions to fill it with various potions such as Moglice? -- Araldite Rapid Steel -- Black Miliput? -- Loctite Titanium -- Devcon and lastly, Classic Car Body Filler Putty stuff, which looks and behaves like old plumbers solder. (I seem to remember this stuff from a year or two ago.) I'm glad I asked this simple question because the range of suggestions received can only serve to educate us all further on the vast range of potions etc., which are available on the market these days to help us overcome little problems like this. I have decided however that I will drill the hole out slightly larger and a bit deeper then whack in a little cast iron plug. I have been in touch with Myford and have been told that this is indeed the method of sorting the problem and that they can surface grind a VMC table for about £50 + value-added-tax; quite reasonable I thought. I only now need to persuade `er indoors that a few days holiday near Nottingham is in order and then I'm laughing. Thanks again to all. Donald Mitchell Castle Douglas Bonnie Scotland ------- Re: How to repair a mark on a VMC table? Posted by: "stevenson_engineers" johnx~xxstevenson-engineers.co.uk Date: Sun Sep 6, 2009 7:19 am ((PDT)) Don't bother with a regrind. Tap the plug in so it's just proud and with a new flat slip stone dress it down going lengthways along the bed. Keep using fresh oil and clean from time to time. The large surface area of the stone will stop you from plowing a groove in the bed as you get level. Then wrap the slipstone with a square of scotchbrite and go all over the bed to polish up. John S. ------- Re: How to repair a mark on a VMC table? Posted by: "freddiefroggie" donaldjsmx~xxaol.com Date: Sun Sep 6, 2009 3:15 pm ((PDT)) "mark" wrote: > you wont be laughing after you have waited the 21 working > days plus it takes myford to do the job...mind you there is > plenty to do and see in Nottingham...does the small brass plug > complete with small oil hole sound like a better proposition now In actual fact I have already made the appointment with Myford and they have promised to do the job within the three days I plan to be in the area. I am already an established customer of theirs and they like Scottish banknotes. I did seriously consider the brass plug though! Donald Mitchell Castle Douglas Bonnie Scotland ------- [atlas618lathe] Re: Atlas 618 Lathe w frosting/scraping still on full length of the Posted by: "Jim Ash" ashcanx~xxearthlink.net Date: Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:58 am ((PST)) For further study: Scraping: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkYyWcflMy8&feature=Play List&p=4CAFB94720BD888D&index=4 Frosting (flaking) the popular half-moon pattern: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yeqSjT7UBE&feature=related Jim Ash ------- NOTE TO FILE: SCRAPING. The subject of reconditioning a lathe or other machine comes up periodically. My curiosity on the subject led to viewing several excellent YouTube videos showing the processes in detail. These particular free videos are all by the same machinist, MuellerNick. I am providing the links here in a sequential order, because they were scattered about YouTube and kinda tedious to sort out. Saves you the trouble. Will take about an hour to watch. The first set of seven videos deals with a major overhaul of a Myford manual cylindrical grinder, which includes a variety of flat sliding surfaces to be scraped as well as an internal round bearing surface. The machinist uses a motorized BIAX BL40 scraper for some parts of the work, and some simple manual scrapers for other parts of the project. Scraping in a Myford MG12-M part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90KpLbyvlPk&feature=related Scraping in a Myford MG12-M part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-R0c-Xa8mA&feature=related Scraping in a Myford MG12-M part 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IovsVVNu6vY&feature=related Scraping in a Myford MG12-M part 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-g0Ie1l_nfs&feature=related Scraping in a Myford MG12-M part 5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVB3WuxrAG0&feature=channel Scraping in a Myford MG12-M part 6 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7m2lkkpcnA&feature=channel Scraping in a Myford MG12-M part 7 (the end) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJd8Zwd9L1k&feature=channel And some general subjects: Hand scraping: preparing the plate http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kWbIxB4z3s&feature=related Hand scraping: sharpening http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIvxXMDeCIc&NR=1 Scraping in a lathe's bed http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHF7TtHVSWE&feature=channel The (unmastered) art of flaking http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yeqSjT7UBE&NR=1 Provides a pretty detailed demonstration. Usual disclaimer. regards Steve -- in Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ ------- Worn Crosslide feedscrew and feednut -cured. [myfordlathes] Posted by: "alan" lubetkin1934x~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Thu Jun 24, 2010 5:20 am ((PDT)) Hi. Myford are now closed for summer holidays - and unable to replace my worn-out ML7 leadscrew -and having quite a few jobs to machine - I tried something I have been pondering a while. I took out the die-cast feednut and with a junior hacksaw split it smack down the center line. Put one half back in and secured it with its retaining screw. So far so good. The second half I also screwed home, but this time with a thin steel washer between feednut and crosslide - thus staggering the 2 halves by around 10 thou... Plenty of lube and ran the feedscrew into position. Amazingly perfect! I guess I struck lucky with the washer thickness - no backlash at any position of the slide and not too tight either. In these troubled time, we of have to improvise! Alan ------- NOTE TO FILE: The machine here is a Myford lathe, but the suggestions are largely generic and will help any machine restoration project. Re: Rebuilding a ML7 [myford lathes] Posted by: "Brad Campbell" lists2009x~xxfnarfbargle.com Date: Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:46 pm ((PST)) On 22/12/10, g6uwi wrote: > I also want to clean and sort the mess out once that is done repaint and re asseamble but without having to carry out major rebuilding work. The only tricky place is the headstock I have to take that apart to clean and paint inside, I feel it will make the rest of the lathe look a mess if I didn't clean and repaint inside that part. < Heya! I'm doing exactly the same with a pile of grease and swarf I was given recently. I think mine's a bit older than yours, but I'll know for sure if Myford ever responds to my E-mail. I'm stripping and cleaning, but not re-painting at this stage. I've found the trick is just to pull it to bits sequentially. Bathe liberally in Kerosene and with the assistance of some brushes and scotchbrite clean the bits up. I've cleaned up the shims with just my fingers. I then oil and re-assemble. Thus far everything has gone back as good or better than it came apart, and after procrastinating on the head bearings for weeks I just did it. Piece of cake. Just lay the parts out so the right shims go back in the right place and the same way up and around. I've been looking for pipe cleaners to clean out the gib screw holes, but have had good results just running the screws fully in and out while submerged in Kero, then blowing them through with compressed air. I've not used the digital camera method, I lay all the parts out sequentially on large pads of newspaper. When I clean them I take each part, clean and dry it and put it back where it came from in the same orientation. That way it's easy to ensure all the bits go back in the same order. Regards, Brad ------- Re: Rebuilding a ML7 Posted by: "dnaman43" mevagissyx~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:20 pm ((PST)) I did exactly what you're looking at doing a couple of years ago. The machine I got had been stored in someone's garden shed through many Canadian Summers/Winters and was rusted solid in places. Like you I faced it with some trepidation but in fact, done patiently, it was quite straightforward. So be encouraged. Some suggestions: - apart from photo's, make copious notes/sketches - better too many than too few. To avoid losing them I'd recommend a notebook or kid's exercise book rather than loose sheets. - get a bunch of small/medium/large plastic bags (preferably ziploc) for the small parts from various sub-assemblies. Put a slip of paper in each bag identifying what the parts are and where they came from. - get some cheap clear(ish) plastic boxes with snap-on lids ... about shoebox size ... to store larger parts from sub-assemblies in. Again, include a slip of paper with the part/assembly identification on it. - on the identifying slips of paper in the plastic bags & boxes, write a number showing the removal sequence. You can go through them in reverse order when re-assembling. - in particular on the headstock, there are shim sets under the bearing caps. Deal with the caps one at a time and remove the caps carefully so the shims don't drop out. Note the orientation of the shim sets and the sequence of shims in the stack and store them somewhere safe in this sequence so that you can get them back exactly as they came out. This is probably overkill actually but if you find you don't need to re-shim (and you may well not- I didn't) it doesn't hurt to get them back exactly as they came out). - some of the notes/identification recommended above might also seem like overkill. My excuse is that I always think at the time that I can remember salient information only to find, when I need it, that I've forgotten. Without fail! Plus, with the best will in the world plans can go awry and you could find that circumstances force you to shelve the project for a year when you are part way through. You'll appreciate all those notes then. - one last observation: Winter might not be the best time to undertake this if you are going to repaint. I did exactly that and I can tell you that the paint will stink the place out if you do it indoors. I ended up sectioning off an area of my basement workshop and arranging for some air extraction to the outdoors. Unless you have a well heated separate shop/garage you might want to consider whether painting is feasible at this time of year. Or do all the stripping, cleaning now and leave the painting till spring. Actually, even cleaning, using solvents, is pretty smelly indoors although it may be possible in the UK to do that outdoors on good days (it sure isn't in Canada). ------- Re: Rebuilding a ML7 Posted by: "Cliff Coggin" clifford.cogginx~xxvirgin.net Date: Wed Dec 22, 2010 12:14 am ((PST)) I was forced to remove the spindle on my ML7 a few years ago when the drive belt failed. I had the manual from Myfords and I have mechanical aptitude, yet I was apprehensive about possibly damaging the irreplaceable white metal bearings or affecting the alignment. I didn't give a damn about the paint as the appearance is irrelevant to me, but I was concerned that mechanically the lathe should be perfect. Having no alternative I had to simply knuckle down and get on with it. In fact, with the exception of a very tight sleeve next to the thrust bearing, the job was easy. As others have said, approach it methodically, label or otherwise identify parts or assemblies as you remove them, don't take anything for granted, and you will find the job to be straightforward too. Cliff Coggin ------- Re: Are the ways too far gone? [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:12 pm ((PDT)) On 03/13/2011 5:00 PM, n2irz wrote: > A 10" Atlas 10F (42V) lathe followed me home, and my mom is letting me keep it. :-) I like the idea of something as nice as my 618 (which I've had for 30+ years), but with more capacity. The power crossfeed seems like it might be handy, too. But this lathe has seen a hard life. Several minor bits and pieces are missing, but most worrisome is the front way: Near the headstock, there's a wear spot at least 8" long that I measured at 0.0025 deep. < 2.5 thousandths of an inch? More important is wear from front to back of the vertical surfaces, those constrain the carriage directly in the radius dimension of the part. Tilt of the carriage causes a smaller variation. I would not worry about it unless you are making long bearing journals or other parts that need extremely accurate fits. Jon ------- Re: Are the ways too far gone? Posted by: "n2irz" baysale976x~xxoptimum.net Date: Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:38 pm ((PDT)) Thanks to all who responded. Yes, two and a half thousandths of wear into the surface of the bed. The width varies by about 0.006", hadn't thought to measure that. I had already bought the machine, for the price it was at least worth the parts and accessories. The only question was to part it out or set it up. Based on the encouraging comments - and the Klunkers page - I'm cleaning it up, and will see what happens with some test cuts. At the moment, the carriage is now almost clean like new. I need to clean the rest of it first, it was quite gunked up. I figure I'll have it under power in a week or two. The machine must be older, because it's painted greenish and has babbit spindle bearings. Babbit went away in 1947, but when did they change colors from greenish to gray? In any case, the carriage and tailstock are painted dark gray, darker than the original paint on my 618. Perhaps I will someday find a better bed, but for now I will take the advice to just get it running and see how it cuts. So. back to the brass brushes and Q-Tips... Don ------- Re: Are the ways too far gone? Posted by: "amuller589x~xxaol.com" Date: Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:47 pm ((PDT)) BELZONA SUPERMETAL www.belzona.com has a filled epoxy that it recommends for worn bed ways and many other uses. They show how to apply it in a thin layer and make it stick. "it is a molecular reaction" and can even be used to repair broken cast iron. I used it to fill in a broken gap of my Craftsman 10X36 bed-way around 1982 and it is still going ------- Re: Are the ways too far gone? Posted by: "shane_levo" deessex~xxaussiefrogs.com Date: Tue Mar 15, 2011 (PDT) Found some! Given the product description this stuff should work fine. It appears it's only sold to big industry in bulk amounts :-(' http://cgi.ebay.ie/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260717064191#ht_500wt_1156 Now I've had a good look at it ... I think this could work well enough for a hobby lathe. The issue is that Belzona supermetal 1111 appears to be impossible to buy. ------- Re: Are the ways too far gone? Posted by: "JOHN ASHBURN" ashburn_johnx~xxyahoo.com.au Date: Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:52 pm ((PDT)) Hi all: the other option here short of a bed regrind, hard to find one here in Aus. Turn the lathe end for end and use the unworn bed end -- means you relocate all, not an impossibility and only time involved as lead screw, etc. have to be transposed. Have considered this option before. Cheer from Australia John ------- Re: Are the ways too far gone? Posted by: "amuller589x~xxaol.com" Date: Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:56 am ((PDT)) I got my atlas in 1978. It had been used in a scrapyard mounted on a wheelbarrow type thing for moving anywhere it was needed so it was well used and abused and mostly outdoors. I was told if it needed truing up to get a "scraper" and scrape the bed for truing. This is a cheap and menial hand job as opposed to having the bed reground. I did nothing but adjust the gibs as needed for different lengths, since most jobs are short. Nothing was required most of the time. I repaired a missing chunk of one way with BELZONA and it has help up well. ------- Re: Are the ways too far gone? Posted by: "ahz" ahzx~xxinsightbb.com Date: Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:59 am ((PDT)) "Scaping... is a cheap and menial hand job as opposed to having the bed reground." Nothing could be further from the truth. Scaping is the technique of making one precision surface mate perfectly with another precision surface. Scraping is done on surfaces that have already been machined smooth. Scraping removes the imperfections left by the machinery. Far from being menial task, scraping can only be done by skilled machinists. Most machinists don't have the skill or equipment to properly scrape a surface. Atlas lathes do not warrant scraping. ------- Re: Are the ways too far gone? Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" jtiers Date: Wed Mar 16, 2011 5:43 am ((PDT)) Everyone has an opinion..... and I am sure they are all equally valid ..... sort of. Scraping is indeed a menial task, or at least it is hand labor, fairly dirty, repetitive, and somewhat boring. It may be part of the origin of "blue collar" as a job description, since one generally does "turn blue" in the process, from the marking pigment used to check progress. It does require some skill, which is acquired by doing, in most cases. Don't know that I would start on a lathe bed. However, far from "not warranting" scraping, the Atlas lathe is possibly the very easiest machine you could possibly imagine TO scrape..... if you have some tools for the job. It is all flat surfaces, which are the easiest things to scrape. Dovetails are much more difficult, as are V-ways. Double V-ways as with South bend are many many times harder, and even carriage and tailstock V-ways are much harder. The mating parts likewise. I don't understand at all how the expenditure of many many hundreds of dollars on a re-grind is "warranted" while the expenditure of personal effort in a relatively elementary scraping task is not. It would be possible to adequately scrape the bed of an Atlas with access to a 24" long granite flat and scraping tools. A straightedge would make it much easier, of course. You would then use the scraped bed as a reference for match-scraping the carriage. Total expenditure on tools for the simplistic setup would be about half the cost of a quality regrind. The skill is obtainable by practice and some basic instruction, and transfers to other machines. You can get "Bubba" down at the auto machine shop to do "something" in the way of grinding to a lathe bed for less, no doubt..... JT ------- Re: Are the ways too far gone? Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Wed Mar 16, 2011 11:59 am ((PDT)) On 03/16/2011 5:59 AM, ahz wrote: > "Scaping... is a cheap and menial hand job as opposed to having the > bed reground." It is not menial, it requires skill and precision tools to measure where to scrape. But, it ***IS*** slow, insanely slow. It took 20 months to "scrape" the bed of my 15" Sheldon lathe. This was partly complicated by the hardness of the bed, it needed a grinding process, a carbide scraper blade wouldn't even leave a scratch. A small touch-up of an Atlas bed could be done in a weekend, but bringing the whole bed down .0025" would take weeks with a hand scraper. And, there is no way to do it without the necessary measuring tools, such as hand-scraped straightedge and granite surface plate. Jon ------- Re: Are the ways too far gone? Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net jtiers Date: Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:42 pm ((PDT)) > A small touch-up of an Atlas bed could be done in a weekend, but > bringing the whole bed down .0025" would take weeks with a hand scraper. Gotta disagree there......... Atlas iron is not hard stuff...... The hard work for an Atlas bed could be done in a good weekend, and the evenings of a week in refining it and getting the edges and gib ways taken care of. This mill has column ways that are about 1/3 of an Atlas bed in length, and similar as far as construction. I got them taken down several thou in a week of evenings not working very hard, an hour a night or so. And I was actually rotating and tipping the plane of the ways, due to an existing misalignment vs the spindle. I might have spent 6 hours in all, some of which was non-productive time spent making measurements of the alignment. The bed has no "alignment", it needs to be flat and in one plane... end of story. The edges are small and uncomplicated, and the gib ways are easily checked with micrometer.... NOT a big job. It would be different if it had V-ways. JT ------- Re: Are the ways too far gone? Posted by: "Leviston" deessex~xxaussiefrogs.com Date: Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:05 pm ((PDT)) Let's say someone is crazy enough to attempt this.... What tools exactly would you need ?? seeya, Shane L. ------- Re: Are the ways too far gone? Posted by: "Dan Buchanan" db45acpx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:09 pm ((PDT)) A good Psychiatrist, antidepressants, muscle relaxants and pain killers. ------- Re: Are the ways too far gone? Posted by: "Leviston" deessex~xxaussiefrogs.com Date: Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:32 pm ((PDT)) LOL ... You're not far wrong. I've been known to try and metal finish car panels using shrinking discs, hammer, dollies and slappers.... I KNOW how time consuming and impossible working metal can be. seeya, Shane L. ------- Re: Are the ways too far gone? Posted by: "Russ Kepler" russx~xxkepler-eng.com Date: Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:45 am ((PDT)) On Wednesday 16 March 2011 Leviston wrote: > Lets say someone is crazy enough to attempt this.... What tools exactly > would you need ?? I've done such work (not on an Atlas) and the basic tools are a scraper (Anderson makes a decent hand scraper and the most popular power scraper is the Biax. Hand scraping tools would run about $100 and a working Biax maybe $400, likely more for a 7/ELM in good condition. You'll want carbide blades and so will need a grinder for carbide. You can make one for $200 or so or buy one for more. A new Accu-Finish with accessories will run $1800 (damn, but that's gone up over the years). If you stick with HSS scraper blades you'll be sharpening a lot more but spending less. You will need a straight edge ("flat", or "fitters flat") that extends the length of the ways, figure a couple hundred for that. More in working condition. A 5' flat scraped in isn't cheap, but you can make it from castings. You will also need a surface plate to prove the flat, something large enough to hold the flat at least on diagonals. You can often find them surplus. All in all figure that you might scrape by (doh) at the lower end for a few hundred bucks and pay $3K+ at the high end. All I'm missing from the above is the large surface plate (no place to put it) and I'm probably in for somewhere in the middle. If you're only doing one and simply want to get it done it's not worth it. If there's someone with a grinder that will take the bed you're likely better off going that route - grinding top, sides, bottoms on something with this little wear - likely you're looking at 4-5 hours work for setup and grinding. A grinding shop charges by the hours on the grinder so you can calculate the price easily. If you want to play with scraping I'd suggest getting a replacement bed on eBay (it's likely to be more worn than yours) and see about scraping it when and as you have time. With a Biax and tools I'd expect maybe 12-20 hours work to have it flat and square (except for the underside of the bed - that's going to be less fun). Alternatively, you could get a lot closer by machining the bed reasonably square and simply scraping for bearing - that would cut 8-12 hours from the estimate. ------- Re: Are the ways too far gone? Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Thu Mar 17, 2011 7:46 am ((PDT)) On 03/16/2011 jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net wrote: > Gotta disagree there......... Atlas iron is not hard stuff...... > The hard work for an Atlas bed could be done in a good weekend, and the > evenings of a week in refining it and getting teh edges and gib ways > taken care of. Well, I have scraped several straight edges and angle plates of white cast iron, and it is STILL slow going. You may also have more stamina than I do. I certainly did not mean several weeks of 8-hour days. A pro, using good carbide scraper blades could do as you say, although he would get the bed close to finished flatness with a surface grinder or Blanchard machine before starting the tedious part. By the way, I have bought giant carbide rectangular inserts, such as 3/4 x 1.5 x 1/8" and brazed them to steel pieces to put them in my scraper handle. These work great, and cost only a few Dollars. You need to shape the blades with a diamond wheel. I mount a diamond face disk in my mill spindle. Jon ------- Re: Are the ways too far gone? Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Thu Mar 17, 2011 7:54 am ((PDT)) > What tools exactly would you need ?? You need a reference flat such as a granite surface plate or a cast iron straightedge. Using the surface plate, you would put spotting dye on the plate and then gently place the bed upside down on the plate and slide it slightly back and forth to transfer dye to the high spots. I recommend Canode dye, it is water-based and much easier to wash off than the traditional Prussian blue dye, which will never wash off. You just have to wait for new skin to grow and replace the stained layer. An Anderson Brothers tubular scraping handle is pretty good, but the blades for them are insanely expensive. I mentioned in an earlier message how to make replacement blades for it cheaply. If you can get a good picture of an Anderson Bros. handle, you could make your own, too. Michael Morgan wrote several books on hand scraping, they are sold on the web. Make sure to pay by credit card so if there is a problem you can get a refund. A good 5-6" micrometer would also be good to have (I think that's the right size) to measure the front-back measurement of the ways, as that is the pair of surfaces that constrain the carriage in the diameter direction. Scraping will get them flat, the mike will make sure they are parallel. Jon ------- Re: Are the ways too far gone? Posted by: "n2irz" baysale976x~xxoptimum.net Date: Thu Mar 17, 2011 5:46 pm ((PDT)) Thanks again to all for their thoughtful and helpful responses. Perhaps an Atlas isn't worth scraping, perhaps it is. The rest of the machine is in quite good condition, surprising to me as I continue to clean it up. One would normally expect chipped gears and such, but the bed wear and the lead screw are the only things that are not 'awful damned good'. I doubt I'd attempt to scrape down the bed, but the outer edges of the ways are a maybe. Need the tools (a precision straight edge -- not a straightedge, which is a ruler -- carbide scraper and some machinist's dye) and need to figure out how to keep the front and rear edges absolutely parallel. Until then, I'd best not muck it up further, thanks. This is a tool, not a decorative piece, no restoration here. I now have the lathe completely apart - well, everything but the headstock was taken apart, cleaned like new, and reassembled - so without taking the babbit bearings out I'll just toothbrush the headstock clean with some light oil or kerosene, put everything back together and see how it runs. Thoughts? ------- Re: Are the ways too far gone? Posted by: "anthrhodesx~xxaol.com" Date: Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:53 pm ((PDT)) ahz, I agree with everything quoted below EXCEPT the last sentence. What a miserable attitude! Do you have an Atlas lathe? Do you use it? For what? A person who has only the one lathe and who, for whatever reason, can't replace it or acquire another may well wish to get the best possible performance from his machine tool. If he has more time than money, operations to improve his existing machines may allow him to do better work with them and be, in themselves, points of satisfaction. Scraping in a machine which was originally produced to a price rather than high precision, or which over a period of time has worn enough to complicate efforts to do good work, may allow him to continue with his machining activities instead of driving him away from them. And scraping in a machine of relatively low monetary value may allow him to learn a useful skill at relatively small financial risk, a skill which may well serve him well when his equipment and skills have been upgraded. If you feel that your equipment isn't worth proper care and maintenance you should probably let it pass on to somebody who cares. Just one man's opinion, probably worth everything you paid for it. Anthony Berkeley, Calif. ------- Re: Are the ways too far gone? Posted by: "ahz" ahzx~xxinsightbb.com Date: Thu Mar 17, 2011 7:08 pm ((PDT)) My attitude is excellent and quite pragmatic. If my ways were abused, I'd simply replace them. Replacement ways are relatively cheap. I have turned down *free* ways before. Does it make any sense to send them out to have the ground? This will cost more than the lathe is worth. We're going to scraping the ways so this flexible lathe is precise? Really? If you *need* the type of precision allowed by scraping, why would you own an Atlas? A set of tools to allow effective scraping probably cost more than the lathe. I'd sooner use that money to buy a better lathe. If someone has that much energy, they should buy a better lathe and restore it. That would be the win. You can make a lot of good things with an Atlas. Pretending it is something it is not is foolish. Yes I have an Atlas (Craftsman.) Good work can be done with it. However I am not in denial - it is a low-end, cost-engineered lathe. ------- Re: Are the ways too far gone? Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net"jtiers Date: Thu Mar 17, 2011 9:26 pm ((PDT)) You need a scraping tool, which can be bought or made. You need a reference for whatever you are scraping. The basic reference is a granite "flat", which are ridiculously cheap these days in the US. The flat in larger sizes is hard to pick up, so a "straightedge" is generally used for longer surfaces. They can be rather expensive, but for many things a sensible sized 'flat" can be used, either corner-to corner, or repositioned to cover a larger length or area. That can be tricky, but is simplified with a flat surface needed, such as with Atlas lathes. With 3 identical pieces, one can "automatically generate" a "perfect" true flat straightedge (actually 3 of them at once). Other references include a right angle reference, which you can make to high precision (I just made one, in fact) in the same way with 3 pieces. It isn't "economically advisable" to do for one thing only... scraping is a skill, and is hardly worth learning or investing in for a single job. My original point was not to say "go scrape it" willy-nilly, but to take issue with the "it will take weeks" idea. For 2 devices, it can easily make economic sense. If you are going to strip and re-paint more than one unit, i.e. do some "rustoleum rebuilds", it may make sense to do some "real" restoration while you have the units apart. JT ------- Re: Are the ways too far gone? Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" jtiers Date: Thu Mar 17, 2011 9:33 pm ((PDT)) WHITE cast iron is not as nice as regular gray, it's chilled in the mold and hard like flame hardening. Regular cast iron such as typical lathe beds for "hobby" Atlas, S-B, and non-hardened Logan machines are made of is not hard to do. The mistake some make is not realizing that if you KNOW you have "material" to take off, you can scrape "hard", and make the shavings fly. In fact you HAVE to do that. The skill is in not getting the Adirondacks as a surface when you do it. I stand by a matter of "hours" to do an Atlas bed..... longer without the best tools. Southbend were scraped in production and they sure didn't allow days to complete the job! Of course they had minimal material to take off, templates to use, etc, etc. The point remains. JT ------- Re: Are the ways too far gone? Posted by: "Bruce Freeman" freemab222x~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:48 am ((PDT)) A very interesting discussion. I've read about scraping but have never tried it myself. From what I read, it never sounded like that big a deal. Slow and tedious, yes. Requiring patience and the ability to work accurately, yes. Basically, it strikes me as equivalent to turning an object to a close tolerance, excepting only that there's no motor involved -- it's all hand work. Despite having an 'optimistic' attitude, I will probably never scrape anything myself. I learned long ago that my hand-to-eye coordination ain't that great. I muck up jobs others can do easily -- or at least they make it look easy. So a metal lathe with its scales and dials is great for me because it removes the slip-of-the-hand problem. Now, as to the 'precision' aspect of scraping -- that's really not all that bad. Chances are you don't need precision better than would be provided by a granite TILE (typically 1/2" thick) you could pick up at Home Depot. (I'm not touting these as equivalent to granite plates, but as mentioned here before, three such tiles could be trued against each other before use as references. For my work, a single off-the-shelf tile is probably all I'll ever need as a reference surface.) It's pretty easy to find the high spots using such a tile. In my opinion the hard part is scraping them off accurately! Like I said - lousy hand-to-eye... As to tools. Carbide is wonderful. I don't knock it. But folks were scraping iron and steel for a century or more before carbide became available. Take a piece of tool steel (think: spring, crowbar, etc.). Cut it off square and do a preliminary grind to shape. Now get the end red hot and quench it in oil (out of doors). You can 'live dangerously' and do no more, or you can temper it to tan (very hard, but not quite as brittle as the hardened steel). Finally, grind the end to give the edge and profile you want, keeping the tool cool. Scraping is a pushing motion, rather like filing, but only the end of the tool does the cutting. The tool I described will suffice for most metals you'd want to scrape, but you'll find out quickly enough when you try -- to scrape the metal, it must cut the metal. If it glides off, then you may have to use carbide. My point is that tools don't have to be sophisticated or expensive. You can make a lot of them yourself. (This applies to lathe bits too.) (It should be obvious, but I'll mention it anyway -- just like you can use a carbide bit on the end of a steel tool, you can use a hardened steel bit on the end of a mild steel tool. Traditionally this was not done since steel became cheap and wrought iron was no longer used, but it works nonetheless. Shape and harden a small "bit" of tool steel, make a "handle" to hold it, and fasten together them somehow. It's not rocket science.) So, you, like me, may never scrape anything. But it's a good idea to keep such techniques in mind as possibilities. It wasn't all that long ago that I would "never" have forged anything, or turned anything, or arc-welded anything. Now I've got these skills (very limited in my case) under my belt and my horizons are wider as a result. ------- Re: Are the ways too far gone? Posted by: "Rick Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:06 am ((PDT)) The art of scraping does not need to be experienced on a surface. I recently used it to restore a pair of old machinist squares. Since I was only working on an edge, little metal had to be removed. I used draw filing which is similar to scraping. I also used Hi-Spot which is messy. The water based indicator sounds like a good idea. If you are interested, I have two articles on the subject: http://rick.sparber.org/df.pdf which deals with the theory of using 3 non-true edges to get 3 true ones and then uses this idea on squares. http://rick.sparber.org/tus.pdf documents how I used a precision machinist square and surface plate to restore my old machinist squares. Given the known surface and edge, this work goes much faster with much less guess work. Your comments are welcome. All of us are smarter than any one of us. Rick ------- Re: Trying to adjust out wear [part of Re: Are the ways too far gone?] Posted by: "Bruce Freeman" freemab222x~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:59 am ((PDT)) Lindsay Publications http://www.lindsaybks.com/prod/index.html sells a small volume on scraping. ------- Cheap Scraping References [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Keith Mc" actix~xxPROVIDE.NET Date: Sat Mar 19, 2011 7:56 am ((PDT)) (Was: "Re: [atlas_craftsman] Are the ways too far gone?" ) I too have a worn way situation on my SBL I am rebuilding, and am considering scraping it. It was used in a school for a long time, and has a serious "lip" AND "dip" in the ways near the headstock, where >90% of all work was done on it. On Mar 18, 2011, jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net wrote: > You need a reference for whatever you are scraping. The basic reference > is a granite "flat", which are ridiculously cheap these days in the US. Excellent idea. What dimension plate would you need for this? Where would I find the "scraping using a reference plate" procedure? (URL please?) This got me thinking... OOC, is it possible to come up with a DIY method to use one of THESE inexpensive items as a reference? 1) A laser pointer line (or plane) 2) A granite/epoxy cast flat 1) Lasers: Laser pointers and laser "planes" are REALLY cheap, but cast a VERY precise line (or plane). Lasers are commonly used in industry as line references for making straight tunnels underground, and laser planes are used for flattening large ground surfaces by auto controlling the blade height on large shovels. They are CHEAP. Corner gas stations and dollar stores now sell laser pointers for a buck or two, and many come with a Line Making (plane casting) lens! Talk about a cheap line or plane reference! Can anyone think of a way to use one as a DIY scraping reference, to control the scraping process? Throwing a precise line just takes adjustable clamps. But how can we control the scrape to reference it? 2) Granite/Epoxy plate: There are a number of people in my area experimenting with making their DIY large scale machine tools using crushed granite and epoxy. The idea is to create a DIY inexpensive alternative to large metal castings, yet be hard and stiff enough to create mills, lathes, et al out of them. You do the old "fill the gap" trick in a wooden form, starting with largest chips, and working down in size to granite dust to fill as much as possible. You then mix it with about 20% epoxy, vibrate it to get out the air bubbles, and let it harden. Once hard, it is as strong as full sized granite. But in addition, it is FLAT, to the accuracy of the curvature of the Earth! So, I thought casting a small trough of it might make a FINE scraping reference plate, yet be cheaper to create than buying a real granite surface plate of the same size. (But I'm not sure... Given enough patience and vigilance, eBay can be mighty cheap!) Yes, there's a TINY curve to it, but boy, that's not a bad grade reference, for DIY! Any thoughts on a way to apply either of these as a cheap scraping reference? Can anyone else think of another *cheap* DIY lab-grade scraping reference? Keith Mc. ------- Re: Cheap Scraping References Posted by: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Sat Mar 19, 2011 8:06 am ((PDT)) You can buy a 18x24" granite surface plate used on Craigslist or Ebay for $100 or less. Trust me, it's not worth it trying to do anything else. The way you're checking whether your surface is flat is by rubbing the test surface and the reference surface together, so you need something that's both very flat and very hard. I'm all in favor of DIY technology, but believe me, it doesn't belong here. ------- Re: Cheap Scraping References Posted by: "Charlie Gallo" Charliex~xxTheGallos.com Date: Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:12 am ((PDT)) I haven't run across one in a while, as a LOT of Mfg is gone from Long Island (sigh) - but usually you can get LARGE (and mean VERY large) surface plates cheap at auction - sometimes even FREE, except for one detail - the cost of rigging/moving it from point A to point B. The issue is they then technically have to be 'recalibrated', and it costs almost as much as a new plate, delivered, already calibrated About 15-20 years back (before I was in this house) I was offered a 4ft x 6ft pink granite plate (4 ledge) FREE, if I'd move it. If I was at this house, I'd have grabbed it - it would make one heck of a picnic table in the backyard (would weld up a nice stand, and just leave it there). 73 de KG2V - Charles Gallo Quality Custom Machine-shop work for the radio amateur (sm) ------- Re: Cheap Scraping References Posted by: "Russ Kepler" russx~xxkepler-eng.com Date: Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:52 am ((PDT)) > You can buy a 18x24" granite surface plate That would let you prove a flat on the diagonal - 30 inches, less if you try to do it right. That wouldn't go far on a lathe as you really need to do the whole length that you're scraping (less and you *will* carve a valley in the middle). > way you're checking whether your surface is flat is by rubbing the test > surface and the reference surface together If you do it right you're not "rubbing" the surfaces together, or only an insignificant amount - the flat should pretty much ride on the indicating material and only touch through it in the highest points. Those spread out pretty fast and make the contact area quite high - one way of knowing that things are getting flat are when you have to squeeze the air out of the contact area and slide the flat near an edge or twist hard to break contact. And that just gets you to the point where you have a flat, you haven't started scraping the lathe bed yet. You'll end up making other flats to check for square, etc. > I'm all in favor of DIY technology, but > believe me, it doesn't belong here. The only "shortcut" I'm aware of is to have someone grind or mill things close, then if milled use scraping to get the finish dims and fit. If you have things ground you can cheat the saddle in with something like Moglice and avoid a lot of scraping there. Scraping looks pretty easy in a book, but when it comes to creating and maintaining flat & dimensions on a 5' lathe bed it's well past the "I read how to do it in a book" stage. ------- Re: Cheap Scraping References Posted by: "wheezer" wheezer606x~xxverizon.net Date: Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:20 am ((PDT)) Check out your local Woodcraft store. Yeah, I know.. But here it is: http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2004864/7535/Granite-Surface-Plate.aspx lance ------- Re: Cheap Scraping References Posted by: "Jim Ash" ashcanx~xxearthlink.net Date: Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:49 am ((PDT)) The problem with lathe beds is that you can't gauge them in one shot unless you have a reference surface at least as long as the bed. You can kinda fake it in multiple parts, but that introduces errors into a process that isn't terribly tolerant of errors. A few years back, a guy was selling several camelback straight edges of assorted sizes. I bought the largest one my back could stand, which has a working surface of 5' x 3.25" (he had one bigger, but I couldn't handle it and I don't have a shop crane (yet)). It's got one edge beveled for dovetails. I took it to a guy I know whose business is machine tool reconditioning and had him re-scrape it for me (against his granite table that's about a foot thick and maybe 8-10 feet on each side). It's not for sale, but I wouldn't have a problem lending it out to somebody who knew how to take care of it. Jim Ash ------- Re: Cheap Scraping References Posted by: "Bruce Freeman" freemab222x~xxgmail.com Date: Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:55 am ((PDT)) Well, there's optical interferometry. Visit http://www.scribd.com/doc/16117537/Interference-of-Light-Its-Appli cations-Interferometry and scroll down to p. 17. This is used industrially. I believe this can be used to check relative flatness of two sheets of glass. (It might be three, not two, like for prepping three surface plates relative to each other. But I seem to remember it can be done with two.) A flat piece of glass can then be used in the optical interferometric procedure. As for using a surface plate -- try googling that. It's a very old procedure. ------- Re: Cheap Scraping References Posted by: "toolmaker48" toolmaker48x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:27 am ((PDT)) Hi Keith, If you're going to do a SBL, then you need a master 'vee' block. A simple flat plate won't do you much good. My advice would be to spring for a copy of "Machine Tool Reconditioning" before you do anything. In the long run it will be worth the $100 price tag. Robert ------- Re: Cheap Scraping References Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Sat Mar 19, 2011 12:18 pm ((PDT)) OK, the trick with the Atlas is that the flat ways on the bed can be scraped directly on a surface plate by just picking up the bed and turning it over on the inked plate. This will not work on lathes with prismatic ways. Generally, you need a straightedge that is as long as the entire bed, or expensive measuring instruments like a Talyvel electronic level (accurate to better than an arc-second). A 5-foot long straightedge will be hard to find, and awfully heavy to use. The laser pointer is nowhere near accurate enough. I would not trust anything goofy to set up perfectly flat. I used an old Talyvel to handle the long-range alignment of the bed on my Sheldon lathe, the bed is six feet long. I could put a significant bow in it and not detect it at all with a cast iron straightedge, it would just wrap around the arc. The Talyvel was sensitive enough to detect such a curve, however, so I could work it away. Jon ------- Re: Cheap Scraping References Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" jtiers Date: Sat Mar 19, 2011 5:55 pm ((PDT)) Yes, that is why an Atlas SPECIFICALLY is relatively easy to scrape, all you need is flat. The sides and gib ways you reference from the top surface and from one edge that is scraped flat first. Micrometers and indicator fixtures tell the story. It is possible to do a very good job with a shorter reference and a really good level, IF all you need is "flat". As you may be aware, machine tools are made in very large sizes, and no, the straightedges for them do NOT have to be bigger than the machines.... There are other methods used in industry to do that job of furnishing a reference. As for a dip in the bed..... I would need to ask the persons solemnly assuring anyone that they "will" have a dip in the bed a question or so. With reasonable sized tools do you really think the dip will be worse than the one that is already there? We have people talkng many thousandths of wear... and the probable error in using a shorter but still reasonable- sized reference with care is likely to be less. Then checking with a precision level gives an added assurance. Good levels can be had these days in the area of $100. Ditto for good sized flats. As for size of flat, I'd suggest the largest one you can pick up and move to where you want it. Small ones are false economy if you expect to do any scraping work. Substitutes are worthless... except things like talyvels, which are sometimes used to CHECK flats. There are motre modern laser methods to check flats, which do the job in minutes, but you can't afford them... and they do NOT involve a gas station laser pointer. As for other stuff, like a template for the S-B, etc, YOU MAKE THOSE. You generally have to make some stuff anyway, dovetail angle references, right angle blocks, etc. They are often different for every job, so they get made. JT ------- Re: Cheap Scraping References Posted by: "n2irz" baysale976x~xxoptimum.net Date: Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:33 pm ((PDT)) I'm unsure if I'd be able to lift a 18 x 24 x 3 granite plate to gently rub it against the front edge of the ways - or, for that matter, it'll be darn unwieldy to lift the bed onto the plate. What about a steel straight edge, like this one for example: http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INLMKD&PMPXNO=2250 8064&PMAKA=327-2927 The 5/16" surface is flat to 0.0007 or so (less than wonderful, I know), 24" is reasonable long, and $70 is within the budget. There are others on the same catalog page, like the Starrett with 0.0004 flatness, but only 11/64" surface - more of a layout device than a flatness 'plate'. False economy? Also, keep in mind the ultimate goal here: Bring the ways back enough so that the gibs are not unreasonably loose or tight along the length of the bed. If I wanted precision, I'd buy a much better machine. Don ------- Re: Cheap Scraping References Posted by: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:40 pm ((PDT)) That tool would be a totally appropriate reference surface for this kind of work, particularly in conjunction with, rather than as a replacement to, a surface plate. But you wouldn't see me using an aluminum yardstick for this purpose. ------- Re: Cheap Scraping References Posted by: "n2irz" baysale976x~xxoptimum.net Date: Sun Mar 20, 2011 8:21 am ((PDT)) Thanks Michael, just what I wanted to hear. Still going to reassemble everything first and see what kind of work the lathe turns out, and if it's 'good enough', I'm done. Honestly, I was thinking more along the lines of a wooden yardstick. ;-) Don ------- Re: Cheap Scraping References Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Sun Mar 20, 2011 9:30 am ((PDT)) Of course you can't lift the surface plate! My 24 x 36 plate weighs 300 Lbs! > What about a steel straight edge, like this one for example: This is not a scraping straight edge, is is basically a ruler for scribing lines. A scraping straight edge has a flat surface that is as wide as the thing you are going to test against it. So, for an Atlas bed, you need one that is at least an 1.5" wide, and as long as you can get it. You put spotting dye on it and wipe it gently on the surface. The high spots are where the dye transfers to the bed. > The 5/16" surface is flat to 0.0007 or so (less than wonderful, I know), > 24" is reasonable long Yes, too narrow, too short. > Also, keep in mind the ultimate goal here: Bring the ways back enough > so that the gibs are not unreasonably loose or tight along the length > of the bed. Are these the bottom gibs or the front/back gibs you are worrying about? Anyway, the real way to fix this is to send the bed out for grinding. Jon ------- [Restoring Babbitt Bearings] Re: what to do... [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "oldstudentmsgt" wmrmeyersx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Mon May 23, 2011 6:38 am ((PDT)) There is a Gingery book on pouring Babbitt bearings, available from Lindsay's Technical Books for about $10 that tells you pretty much all you need. www.lindsaybks.com/ There is also the Magnolia Bearing Book available free on the internet as a PDF, from one of the old manufacturers of "improved" babbitt-type material. http://www.metalwebnews.org/ftp/bearing-book.pdf HTH! Bill in OKC ------- Re: 618 Atlas Emblem [atlas618lathe] Posted by: "BRIAN GLACKIN" glackin.brianx~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Aug 5, 2011 9:38 am ((PDT)) On Thu, Aug 4, 2011, Hey You!! wrote: > I have just finished a year long rehab of a 1941 618. It is great, > but I need a decent Atlas metal emblem that goes on the front of the > headstock. Has anyone got an extra for sale? I haunt ebay but have > missed the few there because I couldn't match the price. > thanks Paul Andreasen Lompoc, CA You can create your own if either you have the original artwork or can find the artwork. Take a look at this site (it's the wiki for Vintagemachinery.org) and look at section 2.4 on decals. http://wiki.owwm.com/MainPage.ashx ------- NOTE TO FILE: The above website is ostensibly for restoring old woodworking machinery, but also has many how-to articles that will be useful to metalworkers and any hobbyists with workshops. ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following message from the atlas_craftsman group describes a practical method of making a gib from scratch. The method could be adapted for making a gib suitable for other machinery brands and types. A good lesson in the value of hand filing skills. ------- [How to make a machine gib from scratch with hand tools.] Re: Modified crosslide. [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Unchained malady" philip.a.sutcliffex~xxntlworld.com Date: Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:00 am ((PST)) > I can repair most of the problems but the slide GIB is going to be > a headache to manufacture unless someone knows where I can buy a > production slide GIB.. Making a slide gib is not too difficult depending on which hand tools you have available. You can use the slide itself as a jig. Once you have a strip of steel of suitable size, you need to measure the depth of the dovetail and obtain or turn down two pieces of round bar about 1/16" oversize to that dimension and about the length of the slide. Lay a piece of 1/8" packing at the base of the dovetail and as near to full width as you can get. Place the gib material against the dovetail side and with one bar at each side. Using toolmaker's clamps reversed or wooden wedges, jam one the bars against each of the dovetails/material. You now have a filing rest which will allow you to make the bevels on the gib strip to the exact angle of the dovetails. Because the bars are oversize you will not be in danger of damaging the slide but gaffer tape stuck to the slide top will relieve you of any worries. When you have filed the first bevel down to bar level, remove the bars and place some emery sheet on the dovetail base and work the gib strip to a snug finish in the dovetail itself. With the 1/8 packing removed you now need to find a new piece of packing which is of a 1/16" thickness (equal to the amount by which the bars are oversize to the depth of the dovetail)to pack up just the gib strip, but not the bars. Now file the second bevel down to size flush with the top of the bars. Remove and finish with emery paper as for the first bevel while checking for fit. Once the strip is to size, you just need to clamp it in place and spot drill for the adjustment screws. Thinking the process through before you start will allow you to amend the procedure to the facilities and tools available, but the general principle should hold good. Phil ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following comes out of a much longer discussion about the use of carbide cutters for shapers. Now it turned into improving machinery, be it for a shaper or mill. ------- Re: Carbide Cutters [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: pduselx~xxsprintmail.com pdusel Date: Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:17 pm ((PST)) Dennis, Kind of where I was going. I have a Bridgeport that's pretty loose in the Y, mostly because the gib appears to have not been adjusted in a very long time. I suspect the saddle and gib are now worn bowed. I also have a Cincinnati 24" shaper, still on the trailer, and likely to be there for a few more months (indoors). The Bridgeport Y, and the X saddle, should be within the Cincinnati's working range. In "Foundations of Mechanical Accuracy" Wayne Moore mentions that the preferred machining method for cast iron gibs/ways is a single point tool. He mentions that milling the parts left more machining distortion. Although the information may be a bit out of date, the machines I have to work with are from before that book was written, so I figure if it's good enough to make a Moore jig-bore, a single point tool aught to be fine for renovating a 57 year old bridgeport, along with some other tired iron I've been collecting, and the better the finish to start, the less scraping there'll be to do. So first machine to renovate, sounds like the shaper, and use it on the rest. Or, have I said something stupid? Pete ------- Re: Carbide Cutters Posted by: "dennis Turk" dennis.turk2x~xxfrontier.com dturkcars Date: Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:31 am ((PST)) Hi Pete OK you need to know how your BP was originally built. BP did not use shapers at all. All the dovetail slide ways on a BP were machined with a dovetail cutter like I use. BP did no scraping at all on their slide ways for fitting, they were just used as machined. The only scraper tool used on a BP was the oil spotter or crescent cut you see on the slide flat ways. Now understand that oil spotting on an uncovered slide way is the first rule they failed at. Even SB did this. Any good well mfg machine tool will not have any oil spotting on uncovered ways, only on covered ways like on the top and bottom of the saddle. Same for a lathe the bed is not scraped but will be under the saddle or under the cross slide or top casting of the top slide. The reason is very basic. Oil spotting on exposed ways only accelerates bed wear by the oil spots collecting crud and then carrying it under the covered way were it gets imbedded and then proceeds to grind the flat ways into oblivion. When I worked at Tektronix in the sixties we had a department I worked in where we re-built BP mills as the company had about 200 of them. Trust me, if you use a BP you will rebuild it frequently as we did. The advent of the Tibon ways or hard chroming of the ways did slow down the wear but did nothing for the fit or accuracy of the mill. When a knee or saddle got too badly worn to rebuild we simply ordered a new one from the factory and installed it just like they would have. As you can see I don’t think much of BP mills. I did purchase a brand new one in 1989 as it was all that I could get my hands on in short notice. It was used by one man till in 1993 when I purchased 8 Chevalier mills. Once the guys used the Chevalier mills the BP was stuck in the warehouse never used again as no one wanted it. Years later I sold it to a friend that had a mill drill machine and to him it was a fantastic upgrade but even he will tell you today that it’s a pile of crap compared to what I use in my home shop or business. Now all this being said there are a few good BP mills but they were not built here in the US. These came from Taiwan. You can identify them by the black chrome dial rings that they are equipped with. These are really good mills. Also most do not know this but when “Textron purchased BP in 1980 that was the last time a BP was built in the US. The castings came from India and the machine work on everything but the head was done by Adcock and Shipley in the UK. The head come to the US complete and it was built in Singapore. The mill I got in 89 had tags on it telling where the parts had come from. Many dealers took these tags off before they sold them. At one time one of my clients shut down their model shop and I was allowed to bid on the tools there. I won a 1982 Textron built BP. I installed a DRO on it, cleaned it up, adjusted it, and gave it to a new machinist I had just hired. He came into my office a couple of days later and said the mill is no good. I ask why. He handed me some blocks of aluminum he had machined and they had four holes, one in each corner. He handed me two of them and said look at the holes. I did and they looked fine. He said now turn one of them around and I did and looked again and damn you could see where the hole pattern was not square. I took a large granite angle plate and set it on the mill table and dialed in Y to read 0 0 in 8 inches. Then I set the indicator up to read the X axis. He was correct: the saddle was out of square .008 in 8 inches. No adjusting can compensate for a saddle that was not machined square. So much for that mill. I sold it a week later and purchased a Webb mill that I have in my home shop today. So all this being said by all means if you can setup the saddle in the shaper do so but you will find the top slide ways will be convex or rounded off at the ends. The bottom slide way that rides on the knee will not be so bad. You will also have to machine the top of the knee for if you do one slide way, you must do them all -- or all mating ones that is. Now the table ways are another story. These were in fact originally ground. We had a large Madison surface grinder at work were we would re-grind the table slide ways and then grind the top of the table. Now understand that the thickness of the table from the flat way on the front to the top of the table is ground .001 thicker than you do the rear slide way. Why, you ask. Any new mill if you set up an indicator and run it back and forth in Y axis you will find that the front of the table will be .001 high compared to the back. This is done to allow for wear of all slide ways through the life of the mill. When we got a mill that was .001 low at the front it was time to rebuild it. All my Chevalier mills we do a physical standards check on them once a year. All of them after 20 years of use still show a full .001 high at the front or they have not worn at all. Then 60 Rockwell flame hardened bed ways should not if they are kept clean and properly lubed. You’re in for a lot of work Pete but with the end results you will be in good shape. Dennis ------- Re: Carbide Cutters Posted by: "Paolo Amedeo" machineshopx~xxmedeo.net paolo_kaboom Date: Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:37 pm ((PST)) Another thing to consider when rebuilding a milling machine is that the top of the table is generally bowed due to the accumulated stress, not because of "drooping", like somebody believes. The worst offenders are over-tightening T-nuts. If you don't want to do the work twice, it is better to clean up the top surface first, in at least a couples of steps, the first one being at most half the difference between the highest point (more or less at the center) and the lowest one (generally at the edges): with the first pass you'd relieve a good portion of the tension and the curvature of the table will be immediately reduced. There are several very interesting threads on Practical Machinist forums discussing this issue. If anybody is interested, I'll try to find a couple and post here the links. Paolo ------- Re: Carbide Cutters Posted by: "Tucker Tomlinson" tuckertomlinsonx~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:10 pm ((PST)) Pete: That sounds like a really neat project -- I'd love to see some pics when you finally get your Cincinnati working on that mill. It might not be how Bridgeport built it in the first place, but that's no reason you can't do it better. Dennis: As always you have a fascinatingly different perspective from me. Coming from the hobby side of things, a bridgeport is about the largest mill I can handle in terms of transport and hookup. It's also appealing because there are so many of them you can find one in good shape for fairly little money, and tooling is plentiful. Every one I've ever encountered (6 or so at this point) has been just fine for the little projects I want to do on a mill. I'm surprised to hear that BP ever sold a mill that was so out of square by 1thou/inch. Pretty terrible by any standard. I'll have to keep an eye out the next time I see one and see if I can spot any issues like you describe. Cheers ------- The art of scraping [myfordlathes] Posted by: "Kevin" tadpolex~xxbtinternet.com klokenz Date: Mon Feb 16, 2015 2:35 pm ((PST)) Just as an aside, scraping is one of those processes that I compare to oil painting which, on the face of it, look as though it's going to be ridiculously easy. I mean, what can be so hard about it? You can buy all the supplies ready made .... canvas ready mounted and primed, brushes galore and paint already mixed. Just take a photo of the scene and copy the colours and shapes. Easy, no? Me? I know I can't paint, and I haven't tried scraping, and that's not going to change. Kevin, England ------- Re: The art of scraping Posted by: "Paul Kennedy" clankennedy2004x~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Mon Feb 16, 2015 3:33 pm ((PST)) I don't mean to create any sort of issue here but that stance is a trifle defeatist. Ok so you've never done it before but then i'm sure there were lots of things you never did before. Like anything, i'm sure scraping can be mastered with time and practice. I'm not saying start gouging away at your bed or bearings but any old bit of scrap iron or steel would do. Possibly not. Hardness may be an issue but this can be researched and knowledge and techniques passed on. Otherwise it will become a lost art and we have lost too much already ! Just my opinion. That might change if proven incorrect :D ------- Re: The art of scraping Posted by: "Kevin" tadpolex~xxbtinternet.com klokenz Date: Tue Feb 17, 2015 1:53 am ((PST)) Yes, yes, of course! After all nobody is born knowing how to do anything with a lathe. I rather thought I was saying the same thing when I wrote "If you do decide that scraping something is needed then you'd better be prepared to put in lots of work on practice pieces first...." in the previous post. Was trying to be realistic, not defeatist! Kevin, England ------- Re: The art of scraping Posted by: "Bob Hamilton" bobx~xxhamilton-bob.freeserve.co.uk ukdiverbob Date: Tue Feb 17, 2015 3:16 am ((PST)) While Scraping a bearing (large or small) is relatively straightforward, in my opinion. A worn bed is a very different proposition. With regard to general machinery and not directly Myford related:- The ONLY way to get it truly flat and even is to machine it -- Grinding by a specialist that REALLY UNDERSTANDS what is required, is the best option. Even then, if it is felt necessary, only minimal scraping should be required. I used to feel that a lot of the scraping that had been carried out on machine beds was purely decorative. OK shoot me down in flames. New machines can twist, (or be twisted on installation) causing tight spots -- so yes, a bit of scraping may be the answer. Scraping is used in many places, but all for the same reason. To get that very last high spot away to ensure a perfect fit. OK maybe a bit of a generalisation, but with regard to scraping a Myford bed, the very first thing that I would need is something perfectly flat and the length of the bed, to test it with. The cost of such an item would be prohibitive. Removing the “tight bits” on a worn bed may seem to improve things, and to be honest the required accuracy dictates the degree that you would wish go to. So maybe that would suffice????? As normal, Just my two pennies worth. Regards Bob ------- Re: The art of scraping Posted by: "Richard Wilson" richardpwilson61x~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Tue Feb 17, 2015 5:50 am ((PST)) According to the late Fred Colvin, former editor of 'American Machinist', the large machine tool builders in the US had given up scraping to achieve accuracy before WW2; any scraping they did do in later years was to make it look pretty. Rolls Royce had a similar view around the same time -- why spend money boring bearings accurately, and then spend more money paying someone to gouge holes in them?. Any scraping I do on machines is limited to removing localised ridges. If it needs more than that, I either learn to live with it, or take it to a specialist slideway grinder. Richard ------- Re: The art of scraping Posted by: "Brian Clode" brian.clodex~xxo2.co.uk brian.clode Date: Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:24 pm ((PST)) One of the main reasons for scraping on slide ways is for oil retention. Brian ------- Re: The art of scraping Posted by: admx~xxamoyes.fsbusiness.co.uk moyes_a Date: Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:10 pm ((PST)) Scraping is not that difficult, there is no need to be scared if you are moderately careful and it is well worth doing in my opinion. This video on You Tube shows how https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJd8Zwd9L1k I have scraped some new replacement headstock bearings for an ML7 and rescraped that of a Super 7 and can offer some tips for what they are worth. The good thing with the Super 7 is that it doesn't matter if you end up scraping a full thou or two off the tapered bearing (a lot in scraping terms). All that happens is the spindle moves a little more to the left which can be adjusted out. The bad thing with the Super 7 is that you can't see the upper half of the bearing directly because the bed is in the way of your head. Unless you remove the headstock, you have to use a mirror. Now that IS challenging and you need some practice to scrape 'backwards' in the mirror. By checking progress with a test bar and DTI as you go, it is possible to correct any vertical or horizontal misalignment. Any small error should be towards the front and upwards at the right hand end of the test bar. I reckon 1 thou or less over 6" is OK. The one good thing on the ML7 is that you can scrape each half bearing without the need for a mirror. The really bad thing is that there is only a means for taking up wear in the vertical direction (by scraping each half bearing, then filing some off the mating halves of the two shells then adjusting the shims to suit). If you take any off the front or back of the bearings, there's no going back. Personally, I would scrape the top and bottom only and not touch the front and back unless they were obviously too tight. Another thing to watch on the ML7 is to make sure that the replacement bearings are a tight fit in the headstock seatings first. Mine weren't and when I bolted everything up after scraping them to a good fit, the shells expanded slightly and the close fit was lost. About 1 thou too much front and back play. After some head scratching, I cut out some aluminium cooking foil, placed it between the shells and housing, held in place with a smear of oil during assembly. With 0.4 thou thick foil, that took 0.8 thou off the diameter. When bolted up again, it was solid. My lathe ran like that from 1971 to 2011. The clearance was less than 0.5 thou measured with a DTI on the chuck while applying pressure to a bar held in the chuck. No measurable wear occurred in all that time. The bearings were the earlier white metal type and I ran the lathe with a 2800 rpm motor and inverter to double the speed range for the last 10 years of use. Andrew M ------- Re: The art of scraping Posted by: "Mike Crossfield" miked.crossfieldx~xxbtinternet.com Date: Thu Feb 19, 2015 1:34 am ((PST)) Out of interest, what type of scrapers do the professionals use? I have done the odd bit of scraping on machine slides using both home- made tools (reground files) and HSS scrapers from the likes of Eclipse and Moore and Wright. However, my experience is that these tools need constant re-sharpening on a fine oilstone, a process I find tedious and rather hit and miss. Sometimes I get a good edge which lasts well, but more often not... I've seen rather expensive Scandinavian carbide scrapers on sale, and wondered if these were a better bet? Mike ------- Re: The art of scraping Posted by: "Bob Hamilton" bobx~xxhamilton-bob.freeserve.co.uk ukdiverbob Date: Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:32 am ((PST)) I did make a flat scraper with a carbide tip brazed to an old file. That was pretty good and only seemed to require occasional tickling on the Green stone. Bob ------- Re: The art of scraping Posted by: "Robert Langlois" rplangloisx~xxgmail.com rpledm Date: Thu Feb 19, 2015 7:29 am ((PST)) Several years ago at the North American Model Engineers Exhibition (NAMES) there was a gentleman describing and demonstrating The Art Of Scraping. He also had an instructional video for sale. One of our group (Golden Triangle Model Engineers Enthusiasts) bought the video, practiced and then demonstrated at a Sunday afternoon club meeting. it was his opinion that this is an art which can be learned by careful study and then practice, practice, practice. I do not recall the name of the video's author but I suspect he is one of the names mentioned here: http://www.circuitousroot.com/artifice/machine-shop/surface-fin ishing/hand-scraping/index.html He (the NAMES man) may have also given a Power talk that was like this: http://www.schsm.org/SCRAPING.pdf I have used these resources above and instruction from my dad. With much practice I finally worked on my Criterion surface plate removing several dings and high spots. The two scrapers I use were bought by my RN-FAA dad in Portsmouth way back, probably before WW2 and before Portsmouth was obliterated. He also bought a very fine grained but expensive Arkansas oil stone from which the scrapers take on a keen edge. A small container of brake cylinder honing compound rounds out the kit. This is for lapping the two scraper edges together. A simple metal jig in the vice allows for easy lapping. NOTE: There are a minimum of three surfaces here and this is important because three surfaces will maintain flatness whereas two surfaces will produce a parabolic surface suitable for astronomical mirror making :) Robert Langlois Port Stanley, Ontario ------- Re: The art of scraping Posted by: perrti02x~xxyahoo.com perrti02 Date: Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:38 am ((PST)) Mostly we use Sandvik scrapers such as these: http://www.greenwood-tools.co.uk/shopscr63.html We also have a grinder specifically for sharpening the blades on these so I suspect it would be a real pain to do it at home unless you have a grinding wheel that can cut carbide. They are also far more expensive than a reground file. ------- Re: The art of scraping Posted by: "Mike Crossfield" miked.crossfieldx~xxbtinternet.com Date: Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:44 am ((PST)) Thanks for that. I half expected that the Sandvik scraper would be the weapon of choice. Way outside my budget (even for the replaceable insert) so I guess I'll have a go at making my own. It will be interesting to compare the results with the various HSS scrapers I have. Mike ------- Re: The art of scraping Posted by: "David Littlewood" davidx~xxdlittlewood.co.uk dmlittlewood Date: Fri Feb 20, 2015 11:30 am ((PST)) >Mostly we use Sandvik scrapers I have one of these also. Expensive, yes, but good. When looking at the cost of the inserts, bear in mind that there are no less than 8 edges to use before sharpening is necessary. For that, a diamond wheel (very cheap nowadays, and far better than green grit) should be fine -- I haven't reached the stage of needing to sharpen mine yet! David Littlewood ------- Re: Scraping Super 7 Bed [myfordlathes] Posted by: burgoynedanielx~xxyahoo.ca burgoynedaniel Date: Wed Feb 18, 2015 6:03 pm ((PST)) Quite the reverse on older models, the saddle is riding on the front way. Additions to the text below between square brackets are mine. >From www.lathes.co.uk: Saddle and Apron One unusual aspect of the lathe's [Super 7] design (shared with the ML7) was the arrangement of the saddle; although this had equal-length wings at front and back, at the front (where the thrust was taken out on the inside vertical way) only half the length bore against the bed. However, from August 1972 and Serial No. SK 108891B, the thrust was changed to bear against the full length of the saddle at the rear - the alteration being brought about by correspondence with an Australian engineer [JA Radford] who had conducted the necessary practical experiments. This change also helped to ensure the success of the power cross-feed mechanism introduced in March 1974, from Serial No. SK 115830. Daniel ------- broken casting 1948 3 1/2" M type [myfordlathes] Posted by: rcwislerx~xxthewislers.com r_c_wisler Date: Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:19 pm ((PST)) Spider gear seized on its shaft and resulting torque broke head casting. Would welcome any suggestions for a fix. ------- Re: broken casting 1948 3 1/2" M type Posted by: "Richard Wisler" rcwislerx~xxthewislers.com r_c_wisler Date: Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:13 pm ((PST)) > Oh my, I just saw the photo. > Ouch Yes double ouch. Any suggestions? I have already eliminated super glue [?] ------- Re: broken casting 1948 3 1/2" M type Posted by: "Robert Langlois" rplangloisx~xxgmail.com rpledm Date: Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:40 pm ((PST)) When the old shipwright's vise broke here 40 years ago, dad took it apart, heated up the two parts and brazed it back together. It is still in good nick and has had a lot of abuse since. Like the Myford, it was made from good cast iron but you are going to have to watch your temperatures and if you've never done it before then you would be well to invest in a good bottle of scotch for your tutor. Dad passed on 8 years ago and it was quite inconsiderate of him to take all that knowledge and experience with him... :) Robert Langlois Port Stanley, Ontario ------- Re: broken casting 1948 3 1/2" M type Posted by: "Robert Mitchell" rmm200x~xxyahoo.com rmm200 Date: Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:46 pm ((PST)) And, if you have not noticed, a lot of the people in the Myford group are in the "knowledge soon to be lost forever" category. Appreciate them while you can. ------- Re: broken casting 1948 3 1/2" M type Posted by: rcwislerx~xxthewislers.com r_c_wisler Date: Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:04 pm ((PST)) Funny you should mention a good bottle of scotch as that is how I have been dealing with the realization that underlubricated the spider gear. My concern with brazing is warping the casting and messing up the spindle alignment. ------- Re: broken casting 1948 3 1/2" M type Posted by: "Lyn Hughes" hluyghnesx~xxyahoo.com hluyghnes Date: Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:29 pm ((PST)) Don't know if this will work for you but I successfully used JB Weld (a 2-part epoxy) to repair the cast iron bull-wheel guard on my Myford- Drummond long bed. It broke during shipment across the Atlantic. It's held for over two years in an unheated workshop: >90F in summer, down to 0F in winter. I realize that in your case there will be much bigger forces in play during use, but for extra strength maybe you could reinforce the repair by drilling through it and putting in a metal dowel together with JB Weld. Lyn Hughes ------- Re: broken casting 1948 3 1/2" M type Posted by: "Brad Campbell" lists2009x~xxfnarfbargle.com yeldarb_llebpmac Date: Thu Feb 19, 2015 5:28 pm ((PST)) I swear by JB Weld. As far as generic available epoxy goes it has no peer. I don't understand how that part of the casting is used, but to break like that it must have the potential to be under some considerable force. Combined with the length of the broken bit providing a pretty good sized lever, I'd be wary of using epoxy. I'd strip the casting right down and find an old gnarled welder with experience in cast iron and have it brazed up. The pores in the surface will provide plenty of bite and at brazing temperatures you won't induce any brittleness around the joint like you may with a weld. Having said that, if you could *accurately* drill both parts and put a nice big steel pin in there, then epoxy would probably to the job. ------- Re: broken casting 1948 3 1/2" M type Posted by: "Bob Hamilton" bobx~xxhamilton-bob.freeserve.co.uk ukdiverbob Date: Fri Feb 20, 2015 1:42 am ((PST)) I'm not familiar with this machine so what I am about to propose may not work!!!!! My first thought is to drill into both sides of the break and use a couple of "Sellok" pins.(as big as you can get away with) I would drill the broken-off part first in a bench drill and make a couple of temporary pins, machined to points to use as centre "pops"to aid marking the main casting. If these only just protruded, the broken part could then held against the main part and banged to mark the main casting quite accurately. Drilling the main casting by hand should then be possible with reasonable accuracy. JB weld might be a good additional thing to use here. If the open, (outer end) does not "Need" to be open, make a substantial "bridge" to support the broken part with the main casting. Screw this onto the outer ends, after grinding them flat. If possible and if it will not interfere with anything, make a plate to screw to the face. Something that went right across and around the spindle, about 1/8" thick and secured with countersunk screws could look as though it had always been there?? If it would allow, remove the circular nut and have the plate go behind it. I understand that this may cause some mis-alignment issues????? I feel that quite an effective repair could be achieved with the above. Bob ------- Re: broken casting 1948 3 1/2" M type Posted by: "john baird" alexandra.leavingx~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:26 am ((PST)) It's just a gear hanger bracket; that part is often broken on used lathes, it shouldn't be carrying any load. Just braze or nickel weld it. Regards jb ------- Re: broken casting 1948 3 1/2" M type Posted by: "Alan Moore" a.j.moorex~xxbtinternet.com Date: Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:40 am ((PST)) The problem with either brazing or pinning as you suggest is to maintain the two parts in accurate alignment. That is much easier to do with the two part epoxy. I would be inclined to use that first - with appropriate pressure you should be able to hold the two parts in alignment till it sets. After it is hard you could drill down from the end with a long drill about 10mm past the break and fit a coarse-threaded bolt. It should be a bolt, not a screw, with a plain shank as far as the crack and thread beyond it and should be a close fit in the hole. (Yes, I know, a plain shank well beyond the crack would be even better, but I'm not sure how far down you can drill before breaking through into the threaded adjustment collar.) You might have to make a bolt if you can't find anything suitable lying around. Don't tell me - you can't make a bolt until you get your broken lathe fixed! Regards, Alan [in a later message] Just thought of something else. Much easier to drill down the broken piece /before/ epoxying it to the lathe.Then the hole acts as a guide for drilling into the headstock. This is done with the tapping drill, then the hole is opened out as far as the crack to the finished size. Apologies if I'm teaching my grandmother to suck eggs. Alan ------- Re: broken casting 1948 3 1/2" M type Posted by: "Richard Wisler" rcwislerx~xxthewislers.com r_c_wisler Date: Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:32 am ((PST)) Thanks, Grandmother can use all the help he can get. What you propose was about what I was thinking. 3/16 - 24 is about as large as I can get thru the skinny end of the fork. And no I can't make a bolt without change gears but I can hand thread if I must. Cast iron is much better in compression than in shear so a thru bolt seems a good idea. Thanks to everyone for the help. ------- Re: broken casting 1948 3 1/2" M type Posted by: enwodex~xxyahoo.co.uk enwode Date: Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:14 am ((PST)) Well, here's my two penneth: I wouldn't use epoxy unless you can lay hands on one of the very liquid versions - otherwise, the thickness of the glue-line will prevent proper alignment. I'd test the break by feel, testing whether the break is clean and the parts match and fit well when offered-up to one another. Assuming that's OK, I'd decide on a size of bolt and drill a suitable axial guide hole through the loose piece, then Loctite the loose piece to the main headstock (negligibly thin glue line) and use the hole in the erstwhile loose piece to guide drilling the tapping size hole into the main headstock (as has been suggested by an earlier poster). You might have to release the Loctite bond (modest heat) to remove the loose piece to facilitate opening its tapping size guide hole to (snug) clearance size but then re-attach with Loctite and fit the bolt. I think the tension in the bolt, coupled with the intimate fit of the two faces of the break, will be strong enough to withstand normal duty. Best regards, Pete W. (aka 'Enwode') ------- worn bed ways. [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: shawneliason79x~xxyahoo.com shawneliason79 Date: Sun Mar 29, 2015 7:39 am ((PDT)) I know this is unrelated to Atlas owners but I just picked up a 1952 heavy 10 South Bend and there's about 15 thousands of wear on the ways is right at the headstock. I got a quote for grinding the bed ways and it was over 4 grand!! Wow.. so here's my question, I've never dealt with this with an atlas so I'm assuming that a bed with bad enough wear will change the total height and cut a taper? Also I've read articles and seen videos where guys have built a trolley that run on the ground flats of the bed with a mounted grinder to resurface the ways and then machine the bottom of the saddle to allow the skirt to raise up and properly engage the lead screw or place shims in all the appropriate places to effectively lower the lead screw for proper engagement. Then finish the process with scraping in and realignment of the headstock, carriage, and tailstock. And before all the naysayers attack me, I will say that although I may not have experience with this process, but I don't lack competence to accomplish something like this, and this is more about the challenge than anything. So my options are to either resell the lathe, part it out, or restore it, which I would prefer the latter since it's a South Bend heavy 10 tool room with a factory large spindle, taper attachment and 5c collet closer with the older style cast iron base and legs and undermount motor. If anyone has seen or done this I would appreciate some advice and possible places to either rent, buy, use, or contract out the tools or Service to accomplish something like this. thanks -------- Re: worn bed ways. Posted by: "James Rice" james.ricex~xxgmail.com jlrice54 Date: Sun Mar 29, 2015 7:54 am ((PDT)) How long is the bed? Who quoted you that price? Did that include doing the saddle? James ------- Re: worn bed ways. Posted by: shawneliason79x~xxyahoo.com shawneliason79 Date: Sun Mar 29, 2015 10:39 am ((PDT)) It's a 4 1/2 foot bed. A guy in tomball tx. Quoted 4 to 5 grand for a regrind depending on the wear. I didn't even ask if that included the rest due to where he started in price. ------- Re: worn bed ways. Posted by: jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net jtiers Date: Sun Mar 29, 2015 9:36 am ((PDT)) There is really no reason to be afraid of scraping, if you are reasonably competent at general mechanical tasks. I have scraped various items, Shapers, Logan and Rivett crosslides, made my own straightedge and angle references, etc. I am starting on a Rivett 608 bed as soon as I can get hold of a longer straightedge. The biggest issue is reference devices. That and the sheer amount of work that it is to do. You need a reference for "flat", which is normally a "straightedge", a large arch-back cast iron truss setup with the flat bottom scraped to as nearly perfect flatness as possible. You need a right angle reference, also scraped to near perfect angle and flatness. A fairly large granite "flat" is very helpful, almost essential. And you need scrapers, hand or power, marking medium, and various minor tools and materials.. For the S-B specifically, you need references for the V-way profile, and the distance between V-ways, since the carriage rides on two, instead of one V and one flat as with most lathes. With that much wear to compensate, the leadscrew and feed rod (if any) will need to be lowered to match, or they will likely jam. Alternately, you can raise the carriage with "Turcite" or similar material applied to their "V" slideways. It's a lot of work, and it can be very tedious to do right. But if done right you will have an essentially new machine at the conclusion of the job. There is a subforum for that at "Practical Machinist", and the subject comes up on the Home Shop Machinist forum as well. Richard King, who is a long time machine rebuilder, posts both places, as does Forrest Addy, who is likewise very experienced in scraping etc. Jerry ------- Re: worn bed ways. Posted by: shawneliason79x~xxyahoo.com shawneliason79 Date: Sun Mar 29, 2015 10:45 am ((PDT)) Thanks for the reply Jerry, and yes, I definitely need a precision straight edge long enough to hang over the bed and the tooling and dykum. I used to rebuild turbines so I'm comfortable with the use of these. Now it's really a matter of moving forward. ------- Re: worn bed ways. Posted by: paulguenterx~xxatt.net paulguenterx~xxatt.net Date: Sun Mar 29, 2015 10:16 am ((PDT)) You can also go to the south bend forum. Where are you located? GP ------- Re: worn bed ways. Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org shdesigns2003 Date: Sun Mar 29, 2015 10:24 am ((PDT)) On 3/29/2015, shawneliason79x~xxyahoo.com wrote: > I've never dealt with this with an atlas so I'm assuming that a bed with bad enough wear will change the total height and cut a taper? It depends on the wear. If only on the front, then yes. A change in height will not make much of a difference except on very small stock. The carriage tipping forward would cause an issue and might be less than the bed wear. I'd measure how much it effects the cutting depth. A long accurate test bar between centers with a dial indicator on the toolpost. Adjust the ends the same and see how much deflection you get. You might be able to just live with it.. Scott G. Henion, Stone Mountain, GA Craftsman 12x36 lathe: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 Welding pages and homemade welder: http://shdesigns.org/Welding ------- Re: worn bed ways. Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com jmelson2 Date: Sun Mar 29, 2015 10:28 am ((PDT)) > I'm assuming that a bed with bad enough wear will change the total > height and cut a taper? Yes, of course. As the carriage travels into the worn area, the front of the carriage drops down, and generally that will lever the cutter away from the work, making the turned part bulge. It won't be a taper, but just larger at the most worn spot. See http://pico-systems.com/sheldon.html for some pics of my 15" Sheldon lathe. It had about the same level of wear as you describe. The 6th picture down shows the first step of regrinding the bed. I took the tailstock apart so I just had the base that could slide on the ways. These ways had very little wear on them. I mounted a large piece of angle iron to the tailstock base, and mounted the compound slide and swivel to the angle. Then, I mounted a toolpost grinder on the compound. This made a very flexible device to place a grinder on the bed so that it could match the angles on the bed ways. I got a small gear motor and a roll of the heavy picture hanging wire, and made a hub for the motor to wind up the wire. This was mounted at the headstock end and would slowly tow the assembly along the bed, taking about 10 minutes for the full 6 feet of bed. Work your way down very slowly until the grinder cuts for the full length of the cut, then take several "spark out" passes where it just makes little sparks. Then, readjust to the next face of the bed ways. This procedure takes just a couple hours, and will remarkably improve the condition of the bed. First, take a bench stone, oil it very well and rub the tailstock ways to remove any dings, burrs or raised bumps. These would cause the tailstock base to tip over the high spot and leave a bump and dip in the main ways. You can then rub a well-oiled bench stone over the ways to clean up the ground finish. I was not satisfied with this, and tried to improve the result with a straight edge and spotting dye, and spot grinding with a Cratex muslin-bonded wheel in a die grinder. I will never know how much I actually improved things, but I guess I am a nit-picker. Anyway, then what I did was get Moglice from Devitt Machinery. It is a castable bedway liner with Molybdenum Disulfide in it, and gives a low-friction surface. First, you drill and tap holes in the carriage so you can put brass-tip setscrews into the carriage to align it to the bed. I used 8 setscrews, 4 straight down, two horizontal in front, two horizontal in back. You put wax strips on the bed to form an oil groove, then a mold release agent over that, and then smear the Moglice onto the ways of the carriage and lower it onto the bed. Wait 24 hours, then use the setscrews to pop the carriage off the bed. I then had to scrape the Moglice down, as I had put it on too thick, and it raised the carriage too much. I wanted to get the lathe back together and didn't want to figure out how to machine the underside of the carriage on my mill. It would have been a difficult fixturing job. Well, the results are fantastic, but it took me 22 months, with all the fooling around with the spot grinding stuff. Jon ------- Re: worn bed ways. Posted by: shawneliason79x~xxyahoo.com shawneliason79 Date: Sun Mar 29, 2015 11:06 am ((PDT)) Hey thanks Jon, that's exactly what I was looking for. My plan is to build a carriage using an extra 10" atlas saddle and cross slide I have and setting up a precision spindle with arbor driven by a micro belt and high rpm motor. Then I have the adjustability I need. And I will use the tailstock base as a reference. The carriage riding on the flats with precision roller bearings loaded against opposite sides. And of course I'll completely level the bed and mount it down like it would be if it was in use -- then finish by scraping -- reassembly and realigning. And possibly replace and linebore the headstock bearings. ------- Re: worn bed ways. Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com jmelson2 Date: Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:52 pm ((PDT)) On 03/29/2015, shawneliason79x~xxyahoo.com wrote: > Hey thanks Jon > that's exactly what I was looking for... OK, I built a test gauge that had a short hand-scraped V and flat attached to a big piece of angle iron. I scraped a flat on the angle iron to rest a precision level. You can see this in the 8th and 9th pictures in http://pico-systems.com/sheldon.html That wasn't good enough, so I ended up getting a Taylor-Hobson Talyvel electronic level. It is used by millwrights to align turbine shafts and big printing presses. This is a huge help, as it settles in less than 3 seconds, MUCH faster than a bubble level, and is a bit more sensitive. (When I set it on the lathe bed and walk to the other end, I see a change of about 1 arc second.) I used the level both along the bed and across the bed to detect variations from a straight line. I used a 24" straightedge and Canode spotting dye to spot the bed and then used a die grinder with a muslin- bonded Cratex wheel to take down the high spots. I then cleaned up the surface by wiping it with an oil-saturated soft carbide bench stone. I kept the bench stone flat by lapping several of them together. (This eats up the stones fast, but it does a great job of cleaning up little ripples and bumps in the bed.) The reason I could not hand scrape this bed is because it was cast from some really HARD steel, and then was flame hardened, too! Jon ------- Re: worn bed ways. Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com jmelson2 Date: Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:51 pm ((PDT)) On 03/29/2015, jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net wrote: > There is really no reason to be afraid of scraping, Well, scraping 0.016" of wear will take a LONG time, even on a soft iron bed. If the bed is hardened, or not cast from a soft iron, it will be REALLY hard to do by scraping. It will be much easier to grind it at least close, before beginning the scraping part. Yes, I know grinding doesn't leave the best initial surface for scraping, but sometimes you need to take these shortcuts to avoid YEARS of work. I scraped a Sheldon bed, and it was cast from something like tool steel and then flame hardened! Yikes, you couldn't even SCRATCH it with carbide! Jon ------- Re: worn bed ways. Posted by: jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net jtiers Date: Sun Mar 29, 2015 3:07 pm ((PDT)) Even with the larger area, it wouldn't be so bad on an Atlas, because you can just shovel off material. At about 2 tenths per pass, a bit more if you shovel, it will take a while, but not a lot of thinking. Just "slinging coal", with a check every so often to be sure you keep it even. Doing that to V ways is different. Harder. It's harder to "shovel off" because the area is small, and is awkwardly placed, against the adjacent flat. You can't get as good a stroke going, and the amount removed per pass is gonna be less. Rough grinding or planing is a sensible way to start off, which is what I believe the OP was suggesting he'd do first. I'd not particularly want to take 12or so thou off the surfaces by hand. It's not 16 thou because the V goes DOWN more than the distance worn off perpendicular to the surface, by about square root of two. Jerry ------- Re: worn bed ways. Posted by: shawneliason79x~xxyahoo.com shawneliason79 Date: Sun Mar 29, 2015 4:02 pm ((PDT)) Well, like many of my projects, if I can't use it now, it goes on the back burner. I have a few others to complete, like a sandblasting cabinet just needing final touches... which will more than likely spark off new projects and allow me to finish others... but when I do move forward with it, I'll definitely record the process and take notes. Thanks for all the feedback. ------- Re: worn bed ways. Posted by: "Gregg Eshelman" g_alan_ex~xxYAHOO.COM g_alan_e Date: Mon Mar 30, 2015 2:44 am ((PDT)) I'd go with huge mill first. Dykem the bed then mill just until all the color is gone then run some more passes at the same setting until you see no more cutting. A mill that's accurate and holds tolerances and is setup right with the spindle perpendicular to the table should get a lathe bed close enough to be perfectly usable for most, except for the real nitpicky sort. ------- NOTE TO FILE: The above messages were extracted from a longer conversation in the atlas_craftsman group, where you can see the rest if needed. ------- ------------------------------------------------------------------ This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------