Here find lots of tips on using rotary tables and indexing devices. Rotary tables and indexing devices fall into the category of machine tool accessories that, once acquired, you do not know how you got along without them before. Well you did, but it sure was hard and/or tedious. NOTE TO FILE: There is extensive discussion on how some users fasten the work to a rotary table in the text file "Workholding". If you got to this file directly from my HOME PAGE, return there by using your browser's back button. BUT if you came to this file as the result of a web search engine, see more than 70 additional files on my home page Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ SAFETY WARNING BEWARE: DO NOT ASSUME that any subject matter or procedure or process is safe or correct or appropriate just because it was mentioned in a news/user group or was included in these files or on this site or on any other web site or was published in a magazine or book or video. Working with metals and machinery and chemicals and electrical equipment is inherently dangerous. Wear safety devices and clothing as appropriate. Remove watches, rings, and jewellery -- and secure or remove loose clothing -- before operating any machine. Read, understand and follow the latest operating procedures and safety instructions provided by the manufacturer of your machine or tool or product. If you do not have those most recent official instructions, acquire a copy through the manufacturer before operating or using their product. Where the company no longer exists, use the appropriate news or user group to locate an official copy. Be careful -- original instructions may not meet current safety standards. Updated safety information and operating instructions may also be available through a local club, a local professional in the trade, a local business, or an appropriate government agency. In every case, use your common sense before beginning or taking the next step; and do not proceed if you have any questions or doubts about any procedure, or the safety of any procedure. Follow all laws and codes, and employ certified or licenced professionals as required by those laws or codes. Hazardous tasks beyond your competence or expertise should also be contracted to professionals. Let's be really careful out there. (c) Copyright 2003 - 2010 Machining and Metalworking at Home The form of the collected work in this text file (including editing, additions, and notes) is copyrighted and this file is not to be reproduced by any means, including electronic, without written permission except for strictly personal use. =========================================================================== From: Jeff McPhate Date: Wed Feb 23, 2000 10:22am Subject: Sherline indexer Can anyone share their uses for the indexer, other than the obvious gear cutting? I am also interested in their view of the pluses and minuses of the indexer vs. alternatives (e.g., rotary table with tailstock) thanks, Jeff ------- From: R. Dean Date: Wed Feb 23, 2000 10:50am Subject: Re: Sherline indexer Jeff, I do indexing often, but I seldom make gears. Drilling bolting hole circles, milling hex and octal flats are the basic uses. As far as the rotary table goes, it seldom gets used. Any regular (evenly) spaced pattern is best to be done on an indexer. The shape of the part and where the indexed area is determines what type or method I use to index and machine or mark off for machining elsewhere. Given a choice, I would buy an indexer first, but that depends on what projects I have in mind. Rich D. ------- From: Paul Devey Date: Wed Feb 23, 2000 11:06am Subject: Re: Sherline indexer I agree with Jeff with the exception that the rotary table may be more versatile than the indexer. The indexer is certainly more precise because of our hand-eye co-ordination. Jeff is right in saying you should know what you want to do, the capabilities of each. This will assist you in deciding which to buy first. Paul ------- From: Pavel Korensky Date: Wed May 17, 2000 11:59pm Subject: Re: Indexing attachment or rotary table? what does everyone use? >thanks, just wondering if the rotary table would be worth the money, >I'm sure it is, and would like to know what other things people could >use it for as well, I am not sure if I fully understood your question about gears (my knowledge of english is a bit limited). I have the normal Sherline rotary table (not the CNC one) and I am really happy with it. I am using it for cutting gears (for gearboxes etc. -- I am not a clockmaker), for drilling patterns of holes, for milling of circular pockets etc. etc. etc. I can say that the rotary table is the most useful option for the Sherline mill (and most expensive too) Best regards PavelK ------- From: w.j. ward Date: Mon Oct 30, 2000 1:02pm Subject: Through hole in Rotary Table I ran into a problem with my Sherline rotary table. Swarf gets into the central hole. I was thinking that there should be a hole all the way through, like on the 8" table I have for my beastly HF mill/drill. I figure that chips would fall to the bottom of the hole should they get knocked in there, but that I wouldn't have to clean them out to screw something in until I was finished with the job. Anyone do this to your rotary table? ------- From: Date: Mon Oct 30, 2000 9:09am Subject: Re: Through hole in Rotary Table 10/30/00, wjw2000... writes: << Swarf gets into the central hole. >> Make a screw in plug, or just a piece of foam rubber and plug the hole when you are not using it. bill ------- From: Date: Mon Oct 30, 2000 11:23am Subject: Re: Through hole in Rotary Table Why not use shop vac. I have one under my bench and it will suck those chips right out of all those holes. For stubborn one's, I just use a dentist pick while holding the vac hose near by. You just have to be careful you don't suck up any important things. Tim Christoff Basehor KS. ---------------------- From: Date: Mon Oct 30, 2000 4:50pm Subject: RE: Through hole in Rotary Table Just a thought But I use disposable ear plugs the type you squash up and they expand out in a few seconds. You can cut these to length and they can fill a 3/8"( 10mm) hole. I use these in the headstock spindle and the tailstock when the centre or drill chuck is removed. Oh yeah if the job gets noisy you cans tick them in your ears for noise attenuation ha ha. P.S. Don't through out the old used ones after they have been in your ears ------- FRoM Alan Marconett KM6VV Date: Mon Oct 30, 2000 5:57pm Subject: Re: Through hole in Rotary Table Try putting scotch tape over unused holes. I have a pan under my mill's base, and it had holes in all four corners that I hadn't noticed. I kept getting swarf all over my nice credenza. Tape fixed that! I also keep tape over my rotary table's "chuck mount hole". Alan "May the Swarf be with you" ------- Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 16:13:52 -0000 From: steambikex~xxhotmail.com Subject: Manual rotary table I made a small manual rotary table for the mill over the holidays. I didn't need super precision and saw this one in the plans of the steam engine that I was building. I just needed to cut the inside curves out of the web of the flywheel. The table is made up of a flat plate mounted to the mill table with a 6" Dia. x 5/8" round disk on top with threaded holes for the hold downs. It has a shaft between the two to pivot on. Shaft is ½" dia. into bottom plate and 5/8" though the top disk. Shaft is flush with top and bottom. When I turned it I also bored a 3/8" hole though the center. I cut a piece of 3/8" drill rod that would extend up to put different size of bushings on. The main bottom plate also has threaded holes to lock the disk in place. I placed the flywheel on to the bushing in the center hole disk and was able to make all 6 cuts without any resetting up. OH I also drilled and tape the side of the disk for a 8" handle to pivot the disk with. I had pre drilled holes to start and stop in and took light passes and it worked perfect. Can't do any hogging, but only took a couple of hours to make. A person could add the degrees to the sides of the disk to give more versatility. Paul B. ------- Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 18:11:34 EST From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: bronze headstock bearings [HERE: BIGGER DIAL MARKINGS] In a message dated 1/16/01, dswrx~xxwebtv.net writes: > it would be nice to have larger [DIAL MARKINGS] I made my own, made an extended bearing for the cross slide and turned up larger dials. Used yellow PVC pipe for the dials with paper divisions held on with varnish which protected the paper too. The inner part was aluminum a tight slide fit for the ID of the plastic pipe. I made the divisions with a cad program and could adjust the print out scale to get exactly 100 divisions on the circumference of the collar. Worked good till I sold the 6 inch to buy a Smithy. (What a fool!!!!!) John Meacham High Desert of California, Palmdale, Littlerock. ------- Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 18:33:23 EST From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: bronze headstock bearings [HERE: BIGGER DIAL MARKINGS] > This is a classic division task. Two ways of making divisions, If the divisions are on a thimble, (like a dial on a lathe) what I did was to print out a scale using a cad program. Had the thimble already done. Then print out the scale, Too short? too long? print it at a different scale till the cut out band just fits. Protect it with several coats of varnish. Second method add a large wheel (even wood will do) to the rear of the head stock using an expandable arbor (easy to make). Get a disposable tape measure and wrap around the wheel; keep trimming the wheel till the divisions you need just fit. I have used plumbers tape (that perforated galvanized stuff for hanging pipe) and even used the rip off edges of computer paper, anything with known even spaces. Sounds in-accurate, but if the wheel is large compared to what you want to divide, the errors are reduced accordingly. This is the method used by clock makers to make division plates. John Meacham High Desert of California, Palmdale, Littlerock. ------- Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 19:08:08 +1000 (EST) From: "Alexander Newman" Subject: Footnote re gear cutting I have been scratching my head over making an *accurately* spaced 127-toothed gear (a rather inconvenient prime no.) as simply as possible. Having pondered how to best produce the 2.8346 degree angle, I suddenly realised that the answer had been staring me in the face for months - use a CAD program. I now have a nice template using the copying functions, which is far more exact than a hand drawing! All I have to do is stick the template onto a dividing plate blank, carefully spot through on a set diameter, and drill away. The production of the wheel should then (theoretically) be a snap. And I can print a new template at any scale whenever I need a new one. Alex ------- NOTE TO FILE: This paper template idea has merit and should suffice for all but the fussiest of applications with the following precautions. There is some history of objection as to the accuracy of a computer- printed paper template. In fact I have experienced some significant distortion on lesser quality printers in the past when doing graphics. The level of distortion introduced by the actual physical printing process should be checked by making a true circle graphic in the CAD program (with a centre point) and printing it out as large as practicable on your printer's paper. Compare that circumference with one scribed physically with a compass. If they match closely, there is no significant error. But if the printed "circle" turns out to be an ellipse, the computer file's "circle" should be distorted into a counter-ellipse by a percentage that you determine by experimentation until the printed object matches the compass's true circle. The correction percentage will then be a known factor that you can use in future printouts, be they circles or other shapes. Once the paper template is proven accurate, you could simply spot through as you describe. Accuracy may be further improved by making the template bigger than the final gear, and indexing using division points on this larger circumference. ------- Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 02:06:44 -0500 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Re: Footnote re gear cutting You can always generate a 127 hole plate by dividing a circle. Old fashioned, but it works. The bigger the disk you use (a bit over 40 inches for one inch divisions) the better the accuracy as angular error is reduced as the plate being generated will be smaller than the master disk. If you really want to go nuts, you can make 127 half inch pieces of drill rod, turn an inner and outer disk, face and drill each of the 127 pieces, drill and tap 127 holes in the outer plate, and generate the 127 hole plate from first principles. Books on toolmaking explain this method, several of the Lindsay reprints cover it well, as does Lautard in one of the bedside readers. Personally, I'd just get my hands on a commercial 127 tooth gear and use that as an index plate. Darn sight easier and the gear manufacturers do all the work. Someone near you probably has one. The gear just has to have 127 teeth, it doesn't have to be the one that fits your lathe. Stan ------- Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 12:19:31 -0000 From: J.C.Beechx~xxshu.ac.uk Subject: Re: Footnote re gear cutting At least the bigger the disk, the smaller the error (try 6ft disk hanging off end of table 8-)). But the way to go is get a ready made 127 tooth gear and use that to make your dividing wheel, as already mentioned. Joules ------- Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 12:33:44 -0000 From: J.C.Beechx~xxshu.ac.uk Subject: Re: Footnote re gear cutting OH....that should have been 40.45" disk..... But seriously, I have a wire DRO...So what you may say....Well the point is I made 6" disk with a single locating hole. The wire from my DRO wraps around this disk and I can very accuratly measure its circumference. Once done I tell the DRO to alter its dimensions so I can divide the disk into any number of parts....Not indefinitly...This has turned out to be a God send. The unit isn't cheap, but it is portable to all my machines and gives me 0.001" accuracy...better than I can work most of the time. Anyway check this page out, I am just a satisfied customer. http://www.bwelectronics.co.uk/ Joules ------- Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 08:02:08 -0800 From: James Eckman Subject: Re: Re: Re: Footnote re gear cutting >> Wrap a 127 cm (50") piece of metric tape measure (for convenience only) around a disk machined to the proper diameter (about 16"). Attach a pointer at some convenient location, and start indexing. << > This is good but I still have reservations about precision picking out the locations from the tape ... in essence, it is exactly the same problem as picking them out from a template. < There are several forms of averaging that can be used if you have 2 less than perfect gears. They are similar to some of the much older methods used to generate precision lead screws. However, for a change gear for our type of stuff, this level of precision is not required. Especially since I suspect any threading on Taig's is done via a handcrank usually! After all, how perfect is perfect? In my book, it's get the job done to the required specification. If you can tolerate a bit of error in your threads, then the less than perfect methods presented will work. Lets say that you miscounted and created a 126 tooth wheel and the teeth are way out of line, let's say 1.27 teeth out ;) (lazy!) This is a 1% error, which is not great, but will work for very short threads, fine threads. I suspect anyone who's reasonably careful can cut it down to 0.1%. Some threading guides show compromises of this kind. After all some lathes use a 63 tooth gear in lieu of the 127 version. Determine how accurate you need to be, and then pick your best shot! Jim Eckman ------- Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:40:11 -0600 (CST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: Re: Footnote re gear cutting One method that no one has mentioned yet is calculating the X,Y coordinates of all of the holes you want for an index plate, and manually move to each of those positions using a manual mill. This is a little slower than a CNC mill, but providing you're careful about backlash, it's plenty accurate for most applications. I've used this one in the past, and it works pretty well. (And when it's the difference between setting up a big honkin' rotary table vs. a quick six-hole hexagon, I'll do the MNC every time. ;) ) Tom P.S. My rotary table isn't so big an honkin' any more... ------- Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:13:30 -0600 From: "Paul Currie" Subject: Re: Re: Footnote re gear cutting If you ever have a need to print a degree circle or a sheet of lined drafting paper in some odd perspective check this out: http://www.marquis-soft.com/graphpapeng.htm It is a shareware program that does a lot of neat stuff, such as Miscellaneous>Dial Indicator and Perspective Isometric 30 degree. Lots of feature and priced attractively :) Paul ------- Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 10:07:43 -0000 From: ballendox~xxyahoo.com Subject: Re: Footnote re gear cutting James, thank you for your post! It is often forgotten in our high tech world just how capable the human senses can be... I have made change gears by wrapping a PAPER STRIP around the chuck (having been divided by the draftsmans trick). Used the carriage as a shaper to cut the teeth. Form tool. Works!! I don't buy these comments, "the eyes and hands can't be accurate enough". They CAN, and ARE, and clocks made YEARS ago (hand filing) prove it... Skill is developed by doing... Ballendo ------- Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 10:24:39 -0600 (CST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: Re: Footnote re gear cutting On Tue, 13 Mar 2001 batwingsx~xxi-plus.net wrote: > But in pricking out a punch mark for a drill hole, right or > wrong, you get just one chance. You can re-center a punch mark if you're careful. I remember one of the books I've got had a section on how to re-center a punched mark if it was off of the scribe lines. It was new to me at the time. I've used this on occasion since then, and it works really well. The upshot is that you make your punch marks using a center punch (90 deg. tip.) If one is off, use a prick punch (60 deg. tip.) to lightly punch into the wall of the hole you made with your center punch. You make indentations in the direction you want the punch mark to move. Re-punch with the center punch, and the punch mark shifts. It takes practice to be able to gauge how far you're going to move it, but it does work. Start with a light touch. > Anyone think he can be good enough 127 times in a row? And the fact > that old school machinists felt it necessary to use work-arounds like > tooling buttons should say something about how handwork really is. I > have to stand by what I said: .005" or two human hairs-width is good > work in this sort of task. I do have to say, the trick of shifting a punch mark works, but it's still only as good as your eye (plus magnifier), and it's massively massively tedious. Given the choice, I would NOT opt to do this on a 127 hole dividing plate. I don't know if I'd sort through machining techniques by asking the question, "Does it work or doesn't it." A better question would be, "Is this the most appropriate technique for what I'm trying to do." This dividing plate is a good example. If I was making a six hole bolt hole circle, I'd probably opt for manually dialing the holes in with the mill rather than go through the whole process of taking down my vise, mounting the rotary table, indicating the center, etc. etc. etc., taking down the rotary table, mounting my vise, indicating it true, etc. etc. etc. But on a 127 hole circle, you betcha I'd be grabbing for the rotary table! Same thing with relocating a punched hole. It works, I've used it, and it was handy for what I was doing (which involved maybe eight holes.) But this would not be my technique of choice for something involving a hundred holes or more, even if I could get sub-thousandth accuracy with it. When I was a kid, we'd ask ourselves questions like, "If you were stuck on a deserted island, how would you..." I wouldn't exactly call my shop a deserted island, but neither is it a showcase for stuff out of the MSC catalog. There are tools I don't have, so I come up with work-arounds. If I was DESPERATE for a 127 hole dividing plate, but didn't have a rotary table, yeah, I'd go through and manually indicate them in on the mill. If my mill didn't have the work envelope to handle the project, I'd try to find a work-around for that. If I couldn't do it with the mill, no matter how hard I tried, I might be tempted to do the punch thing (though I'd probably be more inclined to scrap the project at that point.) Tom ------- From: Ronald Thibault Date: Sun Jul 8, 2001 6:57 am Subject: Another Use For Indexing Holes In Bull Gear (was: ***JON***) 7/5/01, you wrote: >> Button? On which case? There is a button-like handle on the gear cover that is supposed to catch on a little bracket attached to the headstock. Is that what you are talking about? << >The button I'm talking about is mounted right side of the case and has a "nub" that, if my bull gear wasn't broken, would fit into small holes in the side of the "bull" gear. Leo suggested that it may be an index pin (I think). I don't understand. Is this used to locate degrees around the perimeter of the work? As if you wanted to divide the circumference of your work into some equidistant divisions. I can't believe I just said that. Hank < Hank; In addition to those already mentioned, the bull gear indexing is also useful to layout bolt circles (say like the mounting holes for a chuck to a backplate. Using a threading bit, scribe the circumference of the bolt circle. Then insert the pin in one of the bull gear holes. With the crossfeed scribe across the circle for the center of the first hole. Back off the tool and rotate to the next hole position. insert pin, scribe, etc. I generally count and mark the gear holes to be used for the indexing before I start with permanent marker, to reduce the chance of mistakes, while working on the piece. Afterwards I remove the marker with acetone on a rag. Ron Thibault North Augusta, SC USA Builder Miinie #2 Captain R/C Combat Ship USS Arizona http://pages.prodigy.net/thibaultr/ ------- From: ikimjing... Date: Sun Jul 8, 2001 3:45 pm Subject: Index holes. I made a drill jig that sits on tool post. Just a piece of angle iron with a few holes. Then I drilled a 1/2" thick plate the size I needed on the part, then bolted it with 2-1/4 " bolts. Marked the bull gear for the divisions then move cross slide as close to part as possible. Then I put a bit in a hand drill and stick it thru jig. Line up to scribed dia. and drill in till I get a spot. Rotate chuck, repeat. Then put part on drill press and drill thru. Worked great and wasn't a big deal to make. Hope this might help someone. ------- From: HUNLEY31... Date: Thu Jul 12, 2001 3:28 pm Subject: Clausing Cheap Trick I just received my new 'bull' gear from Clausing today all bright and shiny. Now the bad news, NO INDEXING HOLES. I'm pissed. I called the company and was advised that they no longer drill them, this is what you get. At the cost of the gear I would think that it would be complete. Anyway, take care of your machines or lose an important feature. Damn, I really wanted to use this feature. Just how much could it have cost to do this in production? I'll check around, but I think having it drilled will be 'cost prohibitive.' Anybody out there capable and willing to help someone just getting started at a reasonable price? I just hate what's happening to values in our country. Sorry about the 'soapbox' but I'm pissed. Hank ------- From: "Reames" Date: Thu Jul 12, 2001 3:38 pm Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] Clausing Cheap Trick As I do not have the problem you have, this may not be a good idea. If it were mine, and I wanted the indexing holes, I'd lay it out and drill it myself. Layout properly, and use a punch for each hole. If I mess it up, I mess it up, it still would work as a gear and if I do it right, Great! and I've learned something. Just MO, good luck with whatever you do... Mike ------- From: Date: Tue Jul 10, 2001 9:56 am Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] Clausing Cheap Trick Hank, do not despair. Is there enough flesh to drill holes on its side to meet the diameter needed by the indexing pin? If yes, do not do it the way Mike has told you. I think it is worth it to find a rotary table which somebody could lend you or have the holes drilled in a workshop which has a lathe or rotary table with a divider so that you can rely on a precise dividing. It is approximately an hour of work. Good luck Jean-Claude, Switzerland www.homestead.com/turnandmill ------- From: HUNLEY31... Date: Fri Jul 13, 2001 12:30 pm Subject: Re:Indexing bull gear, Bubba, Mike, Art, Leo, Others Many thanks to all that offered to help. Guess I was temporally blinded with disappointment. As Mike suggested, I laid it out on a piece of paper and transferred the 'punches' to the gear, not perfect, but I think it will work, I'll drill it tonight. I'll say no more on the manner, I think you know how I feel. Can't wait to get started. Has anyone bought one of the steam engine casting kits? Do you think this will be a good first time project, or too ambitious? One more question if I may. The threading/feed gears. The ones that are compounded together with a sleeve that has 'lugs' 180 deg. apart. Are the sleeves pressed into one of the two gears? In order to separate mine I'll have to press them out or drive them out with a 3/8 drive socket. Is this normal? I've made too many mistakes so far not to ask. FYI, My profile; male, age 51, Street, MD, build model wood ships, starting RC, want to try steam engines. Ready to retire. Work at: http://www.angelfire.com/md/Fireboat Baltimore City Fire Department Thanks, Hank ------- From: joel_mowers... Date: Wed Aug 1, 2001 7:04 pm Subject: Interesting rotary table Here's a link to a British site that offers a nice looking rotary table: http://www.chronos.ltd.uk/acatalog/Chronos_Cat alogue_Rotary_Tables_45.html Seems similar in size to the Sherline, but at a nicer price. Might be worth looking at. Joel ------- From: tony... Date: Sat Aug 11, 2001 6:31 am Subject: Indexer Talking of PIC-based projects, I now have a working prototype of a small stand-alone indexer, based on a PIC microcontroller and a bipolar chopper drive (L297/298), intended to drive a rotary table or dividing head fitted with a 400 half-steps per rev stepper motor. I "dropped in" on Nick Carter while I was in Portland in July & gave him a demo. Brief features list (at present): - 2-line by 16-character LCD display and 16-key membrane keypad; - Setup parameters stored in Non Volatile RAM - remembers the settings from last time it was powered on; - Will cater for any worm/drive ratio between 1:1 and 99:1; - Adjustable initial/max feedrates and jog rates, from dead slow to around 60 degrees/s with a 72:1 worm drive (e.g., the Sherline rotary table); - Adjustable ramp rate; - Software-based backlash compensation; - Bipolar chopper drive - usual L298 spec (2 amps/phase), with chopping current settable via software; - "Jog Mode" gives CW/CCW jog in increments of 1/100th, 1/10th, 1 and 10 degrees, with display of desired and actual angular position to 3 decimal places (where the desired position cannot be achieved, actual position is within 1/2 step of the desired position); - "Division Mode" allows operator to set the number of divisions between 1 and 999. Table can be driven CW and CCW one division at a time - display shows current division number, plus actual angular position in range 0 - 359.999 degrees; - "E-Stop" key halts any move immediately, but the current/desired angular position is remembered - hence, position is not lost on E Stop. - "Degrees Mode" - similar to Division Mode, but the move is specified in degrees to 3 DP; - Motor connector is plug-compatible with Taig's CNC equipment (6-pin DIN plug); - Breakout connector provides for external control of CW/CCW moves and E-Stop, and also provides step/direction outputs if needed to control a higher power driver stage. I'm currently working on getting the board into production along with the RPM meter. More details as they emerge... Regards, Tony ------- From: "David Robertson" Date: Sun Aug 12, 2001 3:47 pm Subject: Re: [taigtools] Indexer I am not a CNC guy so this may be an obviously stupid question... but how will this device Tony is developing compare to the rotary table controller developed and sold by Bryan Mumford... see it at http://www.bmumford.com/rotary/index.html Dave ------- From: Tony Jeffree Date: Sun Aug 12, 2001 5:10 pm Subject: Re: [taigtools] Indexer Mine differs from Brian's (marketed by Sherline) in a few ways: - Mine will handle any drive ratio from 1:1 to 99:1 and can therefore be used with a wide variety of rotary tables/dividing heads; Brian's handles a 72:1 ratio only, as far as I know. - Mine can be set to any motor current up to 2 amps/phase and used with a supply voltage of 10 to 40V, and can therefore be set up to drive a wide variety of motors; Brian's is designed to drive one motor only, as far as I know. - Mine doesn't yet have a "master/slave" mode yet (where one controller interacts with another). - Mine doesn't yet have a "program mode" yet (where you program the device to do a sequence of moves). Regards, Tony ------- From: James Eckman Date: Mon Aug 13, 2001 8:30 am Subject: Re: Re: Indexer In principle, it's probably the same thing, but execution is a different matter. This includes packaging, user interface and the like. And of course price. > Mine differs from Brian's (marketed by Sherline) in a few ways: > - Mine doesn't yet have a "master/slave" mode yet (where one controller > interacts with another). Coordinating moves can be a nightmare between two different controllers! > - Mine doesn't yet have a "program mode" yet (where you program the > device to do a sequence of moves). Do you have leftover RAM? Is this feature useful for the most part, as opposed to having a serial port that accepts commands from another device? Jim Eckman ------- From: Tony Jeffree Date: Mon Aug 13, 2001 11:00 am Subject: Re: [taigtools] Re: Re: Indexer >Coordinating moves can be a nightmare between two different controllers! True, but not an insoluble problem. Will start looking at that once I have the first version sorted - and when I've built a version that will control a linear slide too. There are probably more reasons to connect a rotary & a linear controller together (or even two linear ones) than there are to connect two rotary ones. > > - Mine doesn't yet have a "program mode" yet (where you program > > the device to do a sequence of moves). >Do you have leftover RAM? Is this feature useful for the most part, as >opposed to having a serial port that accepts commands from another >device? I have some left over RAM and also some left over program memory; my problem is working out how best to offer a program mode facility, and whether it will be truly useful. As you point out, it might be more useful to offer a facility to send commands to the box via a serial port, and if the latter, the next question is what form the commands would take. I'm VERY reluctant to start converting the box into a mini G-code interpreter, for example! Regards, Tony ------- From: jguenther... Date: Mon Aug 13, 2001 11:28 am Subject: RE: [taigtools] Re: Re: Indexer Tony: You might want to look at the stuff from Simple Step, www.simplestep.com -- they have their own command language that consists of simple commands like m0.010 would move an axis .010 in the positive direction. In fact, their boards only under stand a very rudimentary command language for movement which is basically direction and speed. If you are going to implement control from a serial port, I would suggest keeping it simple and only recognize a limited set of commands for movement such as direction, speed, distance and maybe an enable / disable command. John Guenther ------- From: Tom Benedict Date: Mon Aug 13, 2001 3:06 pm Subject: Re: [taigtools] Re: Re: Indexer There's some appeal to having these things talk to a serial port. I've played with 68HC11 controllers, but never PICs. (Everyone I've talked to who's heard that has told me I'm nuts, so I think I need to play with some PICs.) I've got one of the older Palm Pilots. The docking port for those is basically a serial port. You can even get terminal emulator software for them. (I've used my Palm Pilot to get a console on a hung server using just that program.) I don't use my Palm Pilot much any more, but I've been thinking of writing some rudimentary shop software for it. For instance, it'd be nice to put the table for tap drills into it, along with a speed/feed calculator. If it could also listen to a spindle tach, and drive a rotary table, that' be nice. I honestly don't know what I'd want from it, except to be able to say, "This gear has X many teeth, so when I hit this button, move the right amount." But it's a neat thought. Tom ------- From: Tony Jeffree Date: Mon Aug 13, 2001 3:12 pm Subject: Re: [taigtools] Re: Re: Indexer There's *absolutely* no guarantee that playing with some PICs will change that - probably the contrary ;-) Regards, Tony ------- Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 10:37:31 EST From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Is this good or what [INDEXING ON LATHE] bustersx~xxfrognet.net writes: > Why is there indexing on a metal lathe [gee,I`m dumb] and > what is it used for. One use is when you have to make a hex head bolt from scratch. Use the indexing holes and pin to lock the spindle while you file (there are gadgets called "file rests" that guide the file in a straight line) the six flats on the head. I have used mine to index for gear cutting by locking the spindle and using the cross slide to crank very light cuts with a shaped tool. John Meacham High Desert of California, Palmdale, Littlerock. ------- Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 10:28:55 -0800 From: "Marcus & Eva" Subject: Re: Question Regarding Truing the Rotary Table [sherline] From: "Daniel J. Statman" > I use my rotary table in the vertical position with the three jaw chuck mounted to the chuck adapter in the center of the table. My parts are spun on the lathe with the three-jaw chuck and then the surface of a ring is faced down to give whatever outside diameter in need. Therefore, this ring surface is running true to the rotation of the chuck. I then unmount the chuck from the lathe and mount it on the rotary table without removing the ring. I then spin the rotary table and my ring is not true to the rotation of the table. What can I do to make this run true? Is this just the nature of the beast, or is there an adjustment that I am not considering. I have cleaned everything and there is no debris on any of the threads on either the chuck or the adapter plug. Let me know your thoughts, and thank you for any help. Daniel J. Statman, Statman Designs www.statmandesigns.com < Hi Dan: You are up against "tolerance buildup" here. The Lathe spindle threads on the Sherline are normally very good, since they are single point threaded on a CNC turning center at the same time the bearing surfaces are turned. The centering plug on the turntable is another matter however. It goes into a tapped hole which likely has a bit of runout, and it has two threads on it, each of which may run out a bit relative to the axis of the turntable. What you need to do for a dead-accurate setup, is to make a threaded plug that you can ADJUST to bring it into dead center alignment. Two ways to do this: 1) THE QUICKER WAY Turn up a short plug with 3/4:16 NF threads in the 4 jaw chuck and mount the chuck together with its plug on the turntable. Then spin the 3 jaw onto it. and tweak the jaws of the 4 jaw until the turned ring in the 3 jaw runs true. Note: with this setup you have BOTH chucks mounted; the 4 jaw next to the turntable face, and the 3 jaw on the stub that is in the 4 jaw. This setup will be comparatively flimsy and hangs a long way out from the face of the turntable. It also ties up two chucks, but it's quick. 2) THE BETTER WAY: Turn up a rectangular block so you've got a 3/4 NF stub on one end of it, and a big square flange on the other. (Substantially bigger than the body of the 3 jaw chuck so you can access the mounting screws with the 3 jaw in plac.e) Make the flange about 1/4" thick. Poke 4 clearance holes for 10:32 screws into the corners of the flange. On the back side of the flange, turn a stub that is small enough to slip into the center hole of the turntable with 0.005 to 0.010 clearance (this is to rough center the stub quickly when you set it up). Mount this stub on the turntable and snug up the screws so you can still move it around when you tap it. Spin on the 3 jaw with a ring blank in it, and indicate the turned surface in until you are satisfied with it. Snug up the screws and you're in business. This stub arbor simply replaces the one that you're already using, but it's adjustable. Once it's set, you can use it with the same precision over and over again (until you strip it off the table for any reason). Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 09:36:00 -0800 From: "Craig Libuse" Subject: Re: Question Regarding Truing the Rotary Table [SHERLINE GROUP] >I then spin the rotary table and my ring is not true to the rotation of the table. What can I do to make this run true? Is this just the nature of the beast, or is there an adjustment that I am not considering.< Dear Daniel: Due to the number of threads involved in the adapter-to-chuck fit, it is very hard to keep it prefectly concentric. The center hole and thread are used in the production process to turn the outer diameter of the rotary table, so the hole should be within .0005" of center. The adapter is turned in a single operation with the threads being single- pointed, so it is held to within .0005" also. Even so, with 4 threads to deal with you could still be out .001" to .002" if all tolerances were added together. The more likely source of runout is the chuck not seating perfectly flat with the rotary table. If there are any dings on the back of the chuck or the surface of the rotary table, they will cock the chuck at an angle when it is tightened. Make sure these surfaces are perfectly smooth and flat and that there are no chips between the two surfaces. Check also the threads of the adapter and the holes in the rotary table and chuck for chips or dings. Craig Libuse Sherline Products Inc. ------- Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 13:21:07 EST From: tadici283x~xxcs.com Subject: Re: Rotary Tables [taigtools about Sherline 4" Rotary Table ] 2/28/2002, tonyx~xxjeffree.co.uk writes: > The worm shaft has ball races at each end & the > table has a (large) ball race at the bottom of the spindle. Extremely > smooth operation. They do an adapter for the Sherline chuck to attach - > may also work with the Taig chuck (not tried so far). All chucks, (I have them all) three jaw and four jaw, work very nicely. I have the CNC rotary table and can tell you that the arbors fit nice, in fact Sherline gives you a threaded adapter that allows 3/4 16 tpi items to be mounted on it. I have also mounted the Face plate and (all Taig accessories) have worked out well. A neat short cut: don't waste your money on a $50.00 part that holds the rotary table at 90* get a small cast iron angle support, I got mine at Enco and the greatest surprise is that all the holes are drilled in the correct spot!! -cost, is $12.00 and the "runout" is excellent. The only drawback when working with Sherline's rotary table and chucks with the the Taig mill is that you will have to most likely move up the Z column a few threads if you intend to drill or mill anything but the flattest item, due to Taig's concept of grand overkill this is more of an inconvenience than dysfunction. Chris of Bradenton FLA. ------- Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 23:59:36 -0000 From: "smitty8002000" Subject: Indexing attachment trouble I have a very weird problem that I need some help with. I am trying to machine a slot (1/8") wide down the center of a shaft (lengthwise). Now, if I set up my vise, get it square to the mill, the slot is dead center in the part that I am making. Now, if I swap to my indexing attachment, square it up to the mill,just like the vise, my slot is off to one side. I am using a 3 jaw chuck to hold the part, and a milling collet to hold the 1/8 endmill. I have used edge finders, the smooth side of end mills with sharpie pen ink, shim stock, just to be sure I have found the correct EDGE, and take my measurements from there, and using the Indexing attachment, it is always off. What am I missing here? The vise works perfectly, but I need the Indexing head to mill holes 90 deg. to the 1/8" slot. I do have indexing blocks, but that was the whole reason I got the attachment! Any help you can provide would be great, I am stumped!! Could I be losing steps within the DRO? But would that not effect the vise as well? Smitty ------- Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 11:03:57 -0600 From: "Nance, Tom" Subject: RE: Indexing attachment trouble Hi, Smitty: Boy, that's a real puzzler you have there. I've got three questions for you that may shed some light. 1) Are you using the tailstock that comes with the indexing attachment? If not, the work may be deflecting from the end mill. A keyway cutter may work for you instead of an endmill. The work will still deflect, but it will only affect the depth of the cut instead of the lateral placement. 2) Are you checking to make sure that the *shaft* is square to the mill - not just the I.A.? Because there are other pieces in play (Chuck and tailstock), it should not be assumed that just because the bed of the I.A. is square that the workpiece is therefore square. 3) What are your mill movements after the point of finding the edge? Do you ever reverse your movement? If so, that's where the problem lies, especially if you are relying on a DRO to tell you where you are. You must never reverse direction after finding a reference point unless you reverse direction an even number of times. Otherwise, you are in the evil grip of backlash. Find the edge, raise the mill, mount your cutter, and then move the mill - *in the same direction that you approached the edge* - into position. I will assume that all your math is correct. That's all I can think of. I'm sure there are better minds than mine out there that will set us both straight. Tom Nance Corpus Christi, TX ------- Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 18:29:32 -0000 From: "Ted Walls" Subject: Re: Indexing attachment trouble How long is the shaft and how stiff is it? My guess is its pretty small in diameter and flexible. It sounds like the cutter is pulling the shaft over as it cuts. If you can have a centre in the outboard end centre it and use something like a tailstock to stop it being influenced be the cutter. otherwise you may have to use some form of "V" block and clamp. ------- Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 21:07:34 -0800 From: "todd smith" Subject: Re: Indexing attachment trouble Tom, Very good points you made. 1) No tail stock. Reason for this, is that I start at the end of the part, and machine into it using the X axis, but I do use the tail stock to align the part to the jaw. 2) As for the part aligned to them I though, and still hope that the part is aligned once mounted into the stock. That I will need to check. I might post a picture, so you all can see the setup I have. It is pretty basic 3) My mill movements are made in one direction when centering the part. I thought of the backlash later last night, but since the cutter it turning C/W, it would be all the pressure on the leadscrew, and that would take care of the backlash. MY backlash on the "Y" axis is 4.5 thou, which is about the amount it is off?!!!! HUMMMM Maybe I need a better Y axis positive stop! Thanks for all the help, but like I mentioned earlier, when I use the vise, all seems to work out just fine! I guess there are less parts using the vise to get out of alignment. Smitty ------- Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 07:38:15 -0600 From: "Nance, Tom" Subject: RE: Indexing attachment trouble Hi Smitty, from what you said, it sounds like deflection is the culprit here. I don't think backlash plays a part in this. You say you don't change direction, so you should be fine. Don't go trying to beef up the Y-axis lock, or any axis lock for that matter. Unless you are taking a cut that is so heavy that the machine starts shaking, the existing locks are adequate. Gently, gently. Be patient with your cuts. You have a sweet little mill there, but it's not a two-ton Bridgeport. Don't expect it to cut like one. You have to get that tail stock into play. You can't cut accurately on a piece of work that is just dangling in space. It needs some support out there. There are probably a zillion ways to handle the situation so don't think that the way I'm about to describe is the only way, or the best way. It's just a way. Use your imagination. First of all make up your shaft again (how many of these things have you made so far?) but this time make it about an inch longer. Also center drill the end so as to accomodate the dead center of the tail stock. Mount it on the indexing attachment this time using the tail stock. Run a DTI mounted in the mill arbor down the length of the shaft to ensure it is exactly square to the mill (or as square as you want it to be). Okay, now it's solidly mounted but you have the problem of how to start the cut at the end of the shaft with the tail stock in the way. Well, that's why we added the inch to the length. The thing to do now is using a 1/4" mill cut a slot across the shaft (perpendicular to its length) at a position that is just past the end of the final shaft. The slot should be as deep as the keyway or whatever it is you are trying to cut. Now you have a "pocket" cut in the shaft into which you can slip your 1/8" mill to cut the keyway and you can proceed as you did before. When it's done transfer the shaft (still mounted in the 3-jaw chuck) back to the lathe and cut off the excess length of the shaft. I hope this helps. You didn't say how deep a slot you are trying to cut. If it's all the way thru the shaft, you are on your own; this method won't work. Good luck. Tom ------- Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 03:47:27 -0000 From: "jdmichael2001" Subject: HF Rotary Index table Attention/Alert I ordered a Centech 6" rotary index table from Harbor Freight on a promotion last Fall. They were back ordered for a while and just shipped finally a week or so ago. This item is made in India, has some good and some questionable features and comes with some correctable flaws. The casting, table and worm look decent. They use a fill on the castings that's a little goofy some places. The bottom cover is sheet metal, but leaves a gap between the cover and worm gear that would likely trap any chips falling into the center hole. That's fixable. The worm handle can be swapped with an index plate that's drilled on both sides so it can be flipped for a total of 12 hole counts I think. The worm disengage mechanism has a spring plunger that's WAY too loose, maybe .050 clearance and will need to be fixed. The index plate pin is also too loose but not as bad. It can also be bushed. The arms are brass castings, but very crudely filed and ground to shape, although the fit between them is pretty good. This is mostly cosmetic, but looks so ugly I can't stand it, and will fix them. In fact, the OD's might be a good first job for the rotary. The really serious flaw is that the index plate is held with three screws, but is not centered on the shaft so the index plunger won't engage the complete row of holes. It looks like there should be a bush from the back side to be really right, so I'll make one and re- drill and tap the mounting screw holes. I'm not complaining here, mind you, since it was only $170, but at best it can only be considered a mostly finished index table kit - it's not entirely usable right out of the box. Jan Michael ------- Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 11:49:17 -0800 From: Alan Marconett KM6VV Subject: Re: Rotary Table jehintz wrote: > Does anyone have experiance with rotary tables from manufacturers other > than sherline? I have seen some as low as 85.00 advertised in HSM > through a KTI tool vendor.Is it best to stick with a sherline table for > their mill? Thanks, -Jon Hintz Hi Joe, I think it would be a good idea. Sherline's rotary tables are compact. Other tables may be quite a bit heavier, and have a larger mounting footprint as well. Remember to order a CNC table if you contemplate going to CNC in the future. While several have added their own motor drives to manual tables, it makes a much simpler setup if the mount is already on the table. A bushing in a plate can be used to support a handwheel on a short shaft, until you go CNC, if that's your plan. Alan KM6VV ------- Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 14:57:11 -0500 From: "Ronald Melvin" Subject: RE: Rotary Table The Sherline rotary table is a very high quality item, extremely well made and very accurate. Craig Libuse of Sherline once said to me that he thinks that it is one their best accessories. You get what you pay for. Ronald Melvin Toronto, Canada ------- Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 21:23:34 -0000 From: "jimknighton1948" Subject: Re: Rotary Table Jon, This subject comes up now and again. It is hard to ignore the fact that increasingly there are some inexpensive non-Sherline accessories out there. I, too, have seen inexpensive 4" rotary tables offered from various sources and had to think long and hard before purchasing. Tools such as the rotary table are not interchangable commodities. There are significant qualitative differences between them, some of which are obvious even from the advertising photos but are most evident when you see them in person. For instance, go to your local Harbor Freight and look at the 7x10" mini-lathe or mini-mill and then compare it to the Sherline equivalent. Visit their respective yahoo forums and search the archives. Thoughtfully evaluate what you find there and decide the quality/cost issue for yourself. Expect to find the same degree of qualitative differences between the cheap imported rotary table (or other product) and the Sherline equivalent. If you conclude that the Harbor Freight item is more like a "Yugo" than a "Volvo" in terms of quality, expect that the cheap rotary table is positioned similarly in the quality/cost continuum. If the "Yugo" will get the job done, then go for it. If you need longevity, precision, and reliability think seriously about the "Volvo." After researching the issue for a long time and pondering the matter at great length I purchased the Sherline CNC rotary table for use with my non CNC asian mill/drill. I've not regretted that decision. It's an exquisite piece of work and one of the slickest tools in my shop. I sweated long and hard over the CNC option thinking I could get by manually and better use the money somewhere else. In the end I bit the bullet and went CNC. Words cannot express my delight when it finally arrived and I discovered how easy it is to operate and all the fun stuff I could do with it. It is a true rotary table and can be operated manually as such, but the included motion controller puts it in an entirely different class. Its wonderful! If you can manage the cost, by all means get the CNC rotary table. Craig is right - it's probably the best Sherline accessory in the catalog. Regards, JBK ------- Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 16:43:19 -0500 From: "Daniel J. Statman" Subject: Re: Re: Rotary Table Even if you do not get the complete CNC active rotary table you can get the p/n 3700-CNC ready rotary table. This only includes the mount for your own stepper motor. You can buy a cheap double shaft stepper to stick on it so you can run it manually, or you can build a plate with a bushing and a shaft to cap it off and use the handwheel which is provided. What I did was to purchase the manual p/n 3700 rotary table for my first one. When I went to CNC, I sold the manual rotary table on eBay for $15 less than I had paid for it 1.5 years prior. I now have two full 4-axis CNC mills running with the Sherline rotary table. As with all of Sherline's tools and accessories it is WELL WORTH the cost. At 15% off from KTmarketing.com (Tim Goldstein) it is $212.50 for the manual one or $255 for the CNC ready version. The fully functional CNC version p/n 8700 is $573.75. For the extra $300 plus you can get a stepper motor, a Xylotex 3-axis drive, power supply, a computer, and TurboCNC. you would then have a hell of a lot more than a computerized rotary table, IMNSHO. Daniel J. Statman, Statman Designs www.statmandesigns.com dan.statmanx~xxrennlist.com ------- Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 14:22:44 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: Rotary Table Bruce, I think you may find that if you are going to build a quality Rotary table that will produce quality parts you will have well over half the cost of a Sherline table just in material. I built a 2" Kurt style vice for the mill because that size is not commercially available and have about $130.00 in material in it. Just a thought to consider. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 04:52:12 -0400 From: Bill Brady Subject: Re: 4" rotary table [taigtools] >Does anyone know of a source for a 4" vertical/horizontal rotary >indexing tale other than Harbor Freight? Second question, since >there are so many 6" tables available does anyone have a 6" on their >Taig mill? If so how is the fit? Is it too big, etc? Hi Jim, I just happen to have both the Phase II 4" table and the Vertex 6". Of the two, the Vertex is better built. I also had a 4" table of the $99 variety that was junk, it had a worm but that drove a spur gear with straight teeth. I do not have a mill, but I have adapted the 6" Vertex to drive the spindle of my Taig lathe. The small amount of extra height makes it a bit easier to interface. Little machine shop sells the cheapo 4" and the 4" Phase II: http://www.littlemachineshop.com/default.php Here is some info on the Vertex: http://www.toolsupply.com/2000/Web%20Library/VERTEX/VERRotaryTables.html http://www.smithy.com/MWaccessories6.htm http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2526151508&cat egory=11805 The outfit from which I bought the Vertex is in Pennsylvania as I recall and can be found via eBay listings under metalworking category (check last link above). The have a web site but I misplaced the bookmark and eBay is down at the moment. They sell an indexing plate plus a tail stock for the Vertex 6" for $170. Before you buy a 4", I suggest that you go to Little Machine Shop and download the manual for the index plate. The 4" tables are 1:72 while the 6" are 1:90. Good Luck Wm. "Bill" Brady, Harwood MD 38°51'30"N 76°41'00"W-- Firewood warms you twice, once when you burn it and once when you cut it. ------- Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 21:31:09 -0700 From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Subject: Re: 4" rotary table I use a 6" grizzly - a little big, but I like the big table surface. See our web pages http://www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 18:07:29 -0300 From: "Neil Albert" Subject: Holding large work on rotary table I plan machine some 3-1/2" plastic rod on the rotary table attachment (when the table arrives), and the only photos I see in Sherlines's lit shows the table being used with a 3 or 4 jaw chuck. Would I have a big problem centering the work with hold-downs? ------- Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 16:59:50 -0700 From: Keith Green Subject: Re: Holding large work on rotary table When our table is a bit small, we machine a larger subtable and bolt it to the little one. Usually use it that way all the time, just have to be careful when machining far away from the center due to the increased leverage. Guideline for maximum size would be distance from column to center of table travel. Your graduated dial may become obscured in shadow and if you use coolant, it will tend to run all over the place. keith ------- Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 11:04:26 -0700 From: Alan Marconett KM6VV Subject: Re: Holding large work on rotary table Hi Neil, OK, that diameter would make it a little rough to clamp. I made up a turning disk for my 5" EMCO lathe, and also put in holes to pick up the slots on the Sherline table. Gives me a little extra room. Watch ebay for tooling plates for the rotary table, or you can make one quite easily. The rotary table can help you turn the OD! The slots in the rotary table are quite useful, I'm thinking of making a tooling plate for the ways with a cross slot. Ideal for holding a cylinder from four directions. The Chucks are quite nice for holding small objects also. There is a chuck adapter (for a T-nut), or you can just clamp the chuck down with stepped clamps. If you make up a end cap, and use a 10-32 nut and some threaded rod, You might just be able to clamp your rod. You could also make up a disk of 4" diameter with four clearance holes for four 10-32 threaded rods near the perimeter. The inside would be opened up to clear the work you need to perform. Steel bar stock, of a thickness and width to slip into the T-slots will also work as "outriggers" to extend the table's capacity the little bit required. Drill and tap 10-32 near one end to take the threaded rod. And I got my bonus check today, so I'm going to order a new Sherline lathe and a bunch of other goodies. Wahoo! Alan KM6VV ------- Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 15:47:46 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Rotary Table Plans and Castings [METAL_SHAPER GROUP] Another source for a "dirt cheap" small rotary table--a tad bit over a C-note--is http://www.lathemaster.com . I've had good luck ordering stuff from Bob B. and super quick delivery. I don't see how you could make one for the price that Bob has this "gem" listed. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 07:43:45 +1200 From: Tom Subject: Re: Oddball Dividing Head dshulbert7 wrote: > Looked at a strange dividing head the other day that a friend has for > sale. He buys gov. surplus stuff and picked this item up from the > scrap metal pile, it appears to have been unused. It had the > following on the data plate: F.T. Griswold, Wayne,Penn. > Model: OPL, S/N: 194, Manf. Date: 7/13/54, 1-360 degrees > Whats odd about it is that it does not use or have any way of using > dividing plates. It has the usual 360 degree scale in back of the > spindle (threaded, a non standard 2 1/2" of course!) On the top it > has an optical backlit device (has a built in light bulb) with a 360 > degree scale that duplicates the readings you see on the front, it > rotates as as you crank a handle. This device also has a vernier for > what appears to be a way of breaking down the degrees into minutes, > etc. Has anyone heard of such a tool & what would you use it for? > Best Regards, Doug It's an optical dividing head, as the indexing is solely optical there is no induced errors due to wear. I have a optical rotary table that is easily set to within 6 secs of arc. For general work it's a PITB, due to the sums involved but that's not what they were made for. Tom ------- Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 16:04:32 -0500 From: Doug Chartier Subject: Re: Oddball Dividing Head Don't know about that particular dividing head, but if it can be set to seconds of a degree, that's pretty accurate. I have a Walter rotary table that can be set to 2 seconds and with a magnifying glass can be set to a second. Two seconds on a 12 inch diameter circle is something like a few 100,000ths of an inch. The only problem with a set up like this is that each division must be read and set up rather than just snapping into place like a dividing head with internal indexing plates. I have handle mounted indexing plates for the Walter, but it is not that difficult to set it using the degree scale, minutes scale and seconds vernier. Pros and cons to each method. Did I make a full turn that last time? Using the indexing plate the full turn and part of another turn can cause a machinists version of a vehicle driver's white line hypnosis. The least question, and you have to go back and make sure. Secondly, if you pass the hole in the plate and back up to the hole, you must go past the hole and then return to it to compensate for any back lash. Heaven forbid if you accidently hit the alignment fingers and get them out of adjustment. The indexing plate is not as simple as it looks. It can get screwed up easily if the operator isn't paying close attention. Reading the dials is precise, but again you have to approach the mark and stop or face the same back lash problem. The Walter I have is adjustable for back lash. ALL of it can be eliminated. The other problem is that you have to mathematically determine the settings for each stop before you start cutting. That isn't difficult, and done properly any deviation from a true position does not carry over to the next stop. If the d.h. you are looking at cannot set to less than a minute of an angle, it cannot be used for really serious setups. Example: As mentioned above 2 seconds on a 12" circle is in the 100,000ths of an inch range. A 12" circle has a circumference of 37.6992 inches. (12xpi). Divide that by 360 = .10472". Each degree of movement will equal .10472" on the circumference of a 12" circle. That isn't accurate enough. Divide that by 60 = .001745. So, each minute is still over 1.5 thousandths. That may be close enough, but getting it into seconds removes all doubt. A single second of movement will move the circumference of a 12" circle 2.9 100,000ths of an inch. The Walter will read 2 seconds quite easily. That's 5.8 100,000ths of an inch. Many rotary tables will read 5 to 10 seconds. 5 seconds would be 14.5 100,000ths and 10 seconds would be twice that. That is an accuracy you can depend on. I had a 15" rotary table that was graduated to 5 minutes. The table was of high quality manufacture, and worked very well. It was quite satisfactory when used to turn arcs and circles, but severely limited when measuring. It had a direct reading scale that read in 5 minute increments, no vernier and no provision for indexing plates. It left when the Walter came into the shop. Maybe some of this info will be helpful to you. Doug C. Houston, Tex. ------- Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 16:32:56 -0000 From: "Mitch Singler" Subject: Re: boring bar holder [actually now about a rotary table] I'm looking to buy a rotary table soon. Has anyone out there used anything other than the Sherline table? I'm looking for a cheaper alternative, but the same size. If none of the imports are worth having, then I'll just get the Sherline one. But I wanted to get some opinions first. Thanks for any advice. Regards, Mitchell ------- Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 10:50:07 -0600 From: David Robertson Subject: Re: Re: boring bar holder Mitchell, I've used the 4" rotary table from lathemaster.com. it is around $100 with a set of index plates included. It is made in India and has some of the rough spots that Indian Tools usually have. I use it to drill index plates for cutting clock wheels. It does fine for this purpose. I disassembled and cleaned and lubed before I used it and it does fine. Harbor Freight has a similar one for around $80 but it doesn't have index plates with it. Dave Robertson ------- Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 08:01:09 +1000 From: "Des Bromilow" Subject: RE: Digest Number 1301 I'm in Brisbane and in the process of building my own dividing head right now (turned the spindle over Christmas) Worms. You can order over the web (go to Tony Jeffree's site for some pointers and sizes). You can salvage them from surplus equipment.. Mine is based on a 24:1 set from an old singer sewing machine) - there are sets in most wiper motors (around the 40:1 range, but sometimes they're 43:1 or other weird ratios). My intent is to use the 24:1 to make my head, and use the head to make a 40:1 set, and 60:1 set (or other sets as desired) and then make whatever I want. If you are planning on using indexing plates a cheap source of discs are the platters inside old harddrives (minimum of two in most drives). HTH Des Bromilow Brisbane, OZ ------- Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 12:32:36 -0000 From: "Harprit Singh Sandhu" Subject: Indexer progress [Metal_Shapers group at Yahoo] Posted more pics under the pics section re progress on the indexer project. Its the first Atlas S7 file. The drawings for this indexer are in the Files section. Both Acad and Jpeg files are posted. Finished the tailstock this week end. Took about 4 hours. This is going to be a pretty hefty indexer and it was all I could do to do the work on a 10 inch face plate with iron handing out 7 inches. Could also be done on a 4 Jaw chuck but the right angles are harder on a chuck. Also a chuck is harder to balance, not that the face plate did not need balancing. (Things will lighten up a bit when I design the castings. This one is from flamed plates.) Project is really fun but goes slowly since set ups are tricky, the speeds are slow and the cuts have to be small. (However: Starting to fulfill Art's requirement that I show what I designed/made!) Regards Harprit Singh Sandhu ------- Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 14:08:50 -0000 From: "Harprit Singh Sandhu" Subject: Indexer progress [Metal_Shapers group at Yahoo] Posted four more pics in the pics section under the first Atlas file. The head has not been cross drilled here because I could not decide on how big to make the hole for the spindle. I needed only 3/4 inch for the stuff I had but I made it 1.5 inches dia for the guys that will want to use 5C collets. I will cross drill it later. This was a job that took patience and made a lot of chips. Now to the dividng plates and the plunger etc. I will not be able to do these like the production units because the flamed plate parts do not have spigots on them like the casting will to hold the arms but I will try to make it similar so the research effort stays useful. I now request input from the readers re features to be incorporated into the castings and to the general design. Speak now or forever hold your peace. Regards Harprit Singh Sandhu ------- Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 13:54:59 -0800 From: "Dave Hylands" Subject: RE: [SherlineCNC] Re: Re: can you use the lather chuck on the rotary table? > I don't know about others, but the tommy bars are a little > hard on my hands. Anyone come up with something better? Hi Alan: Have you seen Tip #23? http://www.sherline.com/tip23.htm > I still can't get an adequate grip on 1/8" drill rod with ANY > of the chucks for threading. I think I even tried an old > 1/8" collet. I ended up turning the rod down a little, and > tapering the end to start the die. After being started, I > use a machinist's clamp to give me a purchase on the rod. > Works (barely), but can scar the rod. Any Ideas? You've tried the 4-jaw? If you can put a flat on the shaft, you could use a lathe dog (or similar) to drive it (or cross drill the shaft and put a pin through it). Obviously these won't work if you need the shaft to be unaltered. > Anyone know how accurate the chuck to rotary table adapter > is? I'd like to hear discussions on how best to center the > rotary table under the spindle. I turned a brass rod 3/8" so it just fits in the endmill holder, and put a 60 degree point on the end. I then screw an endmill holder on the bottom and one on the top. I then jog around until I can freely move the brass rod vertically between the two endmill holders (they're usually just far enough apart for me to get my fingers in). I have a picture on my web site, but it's down for a few days. If I want real precision, I then put a collet in the spindle to hold my Last Word indicator and indicate on the brass rod. I use the 4 jaw chuck and rotate the rotary table. This finds the center of the brass rod (or whatever you have chucked up) regardless of the accuracy of the adapter. Once you have your object centered on the rotary table axis, you then line it up with the spindle (now you would rotate the spindle around the brass rod, leaving the rotary table stationary). Dave Hylands Vancouver, BC, Canada http://www.DaveHylands.com/ ------- Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 15:44:25 -0600 From: "Nance, Tom" Subject: RE: Re: can you use the lather chuck on the rotary tab le? Hi Alan, I use a two-step process to center the work on a rotary table for use on the mill. I mount a DTI in the mill and run it into the hole in the center of the rotary table. I then turn the mill and move the mill table until the hole is exactly centered under the mill spindle. I then lock down the mill table just in case I am tempted to move it during the next step. Then I load my stock in a four-jaw chuck and mount it (using the adapter) onto the rotary table. Then I center the work by using a DTI in either the mill spindle (without turning the mill) or on a stand next to the work and moving the jaws of the chuck and rotating the table. The idea is to center the rotary table and then center the work on the table. It's a PITA but the results are real nice and worth the effort. Just my wierd way. Probably the result of snorting too much cutting fluid. Tom Nance Corpus Christi, TX ------- Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 17:03:18 -0600 From: "Dan Horn" Subject: Re: Re: can you use the lather chuck on the rotary table? Re: alternate to Tommy Bars [Sherline chuck] Hi Alan and list: The arthritis in my hands make using the tommy bars somewhat difficult to use also. I bought 2 "T" handle type allen wrenches, slightly cut them down in length to fit in the lathe accessory drawer. The red handles on the wrenches make for a fast visual identification in the drawer and a much surer grip. 73's Dan ------- Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 18:23:50 -0800 From: Alan Marconett KM6VV Subject: Re: Re: can you use the lather chuck on the rotary table? Hi Tom, OK, pretty close to what I'm doing. I don't normally try to DTI inside small holes. I'd like to check it externally on a little larger diameter (the mandrel I spoke of). But that does give me a surface to check my mandrels against. If they check out OK, I'll be happy. Where do you put the stand? Anything special? I haven't gotten around to putting a thin plate of steel on top of my 1" aluminum plate (so magnets won't work!). ANOTHER TOPIC I'd like discussed is the best way to set up the rotary table on the adjustable angle plate, along with the tailstock. It is a L-O-N-G process (at least how I do it). I use a small reference square to set the adjustable angle table square (A DTI can be used to check it). I set up the face of the rotary table square to the Z ways with a reference square as well (DTI here too). I mount the 3 jaw chuck, and chuck up a 3/8" drill rod that has been previously center bit drilled on the end in the lathe. Actually, and I'm not clear here, but it's probably best to turn the surface of the rod between centers in the lathe first, but that would mean that the lathe would have to be proven true first. I'd rather BUY a rod of this sort (I think I've seen some mandrels advertised somewhere). But once chucked, between the centers on the mill, The DTI can be used to get the adjustable tailstock set up (well, live/dead center in the tailstock anyway) by checking up and down the rod in the horizontal and vertical planes. This is where it gets tricky (in my mind). I've gotten it OK for timing belt pulleys, barreled cruciform con rod cutting, and some other things I've done (using fixed tailstock settings), but I see chances for error if the tailstock is not level. I used my tri-square's level to level the top of the tailstock, but I'm not positive on how good the setup was! The tailstock also needs to be parallel and in line with the axis of the rotary table. And I KNOW the shaft (?) of the tailstock will wobble if not tightened down. I suppose one could check the shaft of the tailstock with the DTI as well. Funny, I looked in my "The Sherline Accessories Shop Guide", and although PN# 3702 Right angle tailstock is mentioned along with the rotary table, there isn't INSTRUCTIONS for it. And http://www.sherline.com/3702inst.htm on the Sherline site really doesn't say much about it either! I guess it must be real simple to set up ;>) Perhaps we can get a few comments on this setup as well! Alan KM6VV ------- Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 18:47:04 -0800 From: Alan Marconett KM6VV Subject: Re: [SherlineCNC] Re: Re: can you use the latherchuck on the rotary table? HI Dave, I certainly tried two 3-jaw chucks, and I thought I had tried the 4-jaw chucks as well. I can see why they would be better in holding, although a small pain to DTI in small stock. I'll try them next time I thread some small rod. I could put a flat on the 1/8" shaft, that would give me more drive! But I'd hate to have to cross drill it for a pin! The flat would not have worked for the valve rod I just made (inside steam chest). Dave Hylands wrote: > I turned a brass rod 3/8" so it just fits in the endmill holder, and put > a 60 degree point on the end. I then screw an endmill holder on the > bottom and one on the top. I then jog around until I can freely move the > brass rod vertically between the two endmill holders (they're usually > just far enough apart for me to get my fingers in). I have a picture on > my web site, but it's down for a few days. OK, you're installing an endmill holder on the rotary table, and one on the spindle as well. and checking that rod can freely move up and down. What's the 60 degree point for? I have the dead center (headstock, morse #1) from the lathe, this would be accurate if you do something with a 60 degree point. It has helped me center on some small holes (don't tell anyone). I've chucked a between two chucks, and THEN tightened down the rotary table when I was in a hurry, that seems to get it close. I can see where slipping the rod between two tool holders might be a good check afterwards. > If I want real precision, I then put a collet in the spindle to hold my > Last Word indicator and indicate on the brass rod. I use the 4 jaw chuck > and rotate the rotary table. This finds the center of the brass rod (or > whatever you have chucked up) regardless of the accuracy of the adapter. > Once you have your object centered on the rotary table axis, you then > line it up with the spindle (now you would rotate the spindle around the > brass rod, leaving the rotary table stationary). I basically do this, when I have to! I'm actually getting pretty good at eyeing stock in the 4-jaw, and then using the DTI to get it in fine. Thanks for your comments. Alan KM6VV ------- Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 19:12:44 -0800 From: "David" Subject: Re: Re: can you use the lathe chuck on the rotary table? Alan: chuck up a 3/8" drill rod that has been previously center bit drilled on the end in the lathe. I had an occasion to try using "drill rod" as a standard in some measuring I was doing. After much chasing- of-tail, I found that the drill rod varied both in diameter (over .001) and straightness (it bowed towards me in one place and down from me in another), both variances over .001 in approximately 4 inches. I had cut a piece from a 36" rod shipped in a tube. I tried several other 4-inch pieces, with much the same result. I then purchased "drill rod" from a different source, three kinds (hardening differences). Much the same results. Consequently, I no longer trust drill rod for any kind of standard that has to be less than .001. ... but that would mean that the lathe would have to be proven true first. I'd rather BUY a rod of this sort (I think I've seen some mandrels advertised somewhere). If you find a source for a true piece of rod, please let me know. In the meanwhile, I have sent several people on this list a procedure for aligning the lathe. (It involves having a local machine shop making a dead true rod, i.e., turned between centers to less than .0002 diameter differential.) Dave Wood ------- Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 22:29:09 -0500 From: "Jerry Glickstein" Subject: Re: Re: can you use the lather chuck on the rotary table? I like to use a strap wrench.The tommy bars will eventually elongate the hole. Use a dial indicator in the spindle and indicate the hole in the rotary table using the x and y movements. Don't try to thread in the lathe, with a die. use a bench vise, with V jaws for a good grab without damage. Use a die holder. Open up the die, take successive passes until you fit up the thread. Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 05:25:02 -0000 From: "Larry Goldberg" Subject: Re: can you use the lathe chuck on the rotary table? DRILL BLANK doesn't have the geometric errors that you've seen in drill ROD. Drill rod can often be found to have three lobes in its diameter. Do a Google search for "Rollie's Dad's Method" of truing up a lathe. It eliminates the need for a precisely turned master. [NOTE TO FILE: Actually there is a copy of Rollie's in the text file "Atlas Repair or Fitting" here.] Larry Goldberg ------- Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 15:25:57 -0500 From: "Thomas R. Bank" Subject: Re: Can you use the lathe chuck on the rotary table? Alan Marconett KM6VV wrote: >>> Anyone know how accurate the chuck to rotary table adapter is? I'd like to hear discussions on how best to center the rotary table under the spindle. <<< Another approach to the centering problem is to put the rotary table on the mill and a drill blank in a collet in the mill head. Center the table with the drill blank by eye. Then mount an indicator with a flat disk point (not a DTI) in one of the tables slots where it will get a reasonable reading against the drill blank (this may require a special mounting piece for the indicator, especially if it is done often). Rotate the table and adjust the mill X-Y table based on the reading of the indicator. Once centered, the chuck adapter and L-clamps can be used to lock down the four-jaw, and the work piece can be tested for exact conformity. If you question the precision of Sherline's chuck adapter, center a drill blank in the four-jaw on the lathe, then move both chuck and blank to the rotary table, seat the chuck on the rotary table firmly and clamp, and then test the drill blank with a DTI in a collet in the mill head. The three-jaw chuck can be used on the rotary table, but it needs a special piece. Since that chuck does not have the ring groove that is on the four-jaw, you will need to make a piece that will fit around a quadrant of the chuck and has a radial slot for a hold down screw/T-nut and also a drill rod peg that can be poked into one of the chucks upper tommy bar holes (not the scroll wheel hole). This part obviously is used to keep the three-jaw chuck from loosening when the part it contains is being milled. Again, a high degree of accuracy can be achieved by making a threaded plug with a screw driver slot which can be threaded into the rotary table while leaving a short length of larger unthreaded shaft above the table. My plug sticks up 1/8 inch above the table surface. Thread this piece into place firmly and make witness marks: a small prick punch mark on the table beside the piece at the table's "0" slot and a groove in the side of the piece to mark the alignment. A center hole can then be milled into this piece, going down with the Z-axis and then turning the rotary table counterclockwise to center the hole precisely. Step rods can then be machined in the lathe to fit this hole and a hole of any size required for the work piece. Just be sure the witness marks on the table and the plug line up. I then use an 1/8 inch thick by 4 inch round aluminum plate (since I bought a 6 foot length of the stuff on sale from MSC) on the table which can be drilled for part mounting and can be dug up as necessary in the process of part machining. As for the problem of the tommy bars and old hands (I know that problem!), I'm thinking a pin spanner wrench or two would be very helpful for removing the chucks, but could create a real problem if used to tighten a chuck to the lathe. For anyone who is not familiar with these tools, they consist of a handle of any needed length with an arc at the business end that fits around a quarter of the object to be affected. On the inside end of the arc is a pin of the desired size to fit the hole in the object. One of these would be fit around the lathe shaft and the other around the chuck, then they would be worked in opposite directions to loosen the chuck. The advantage of the pin spanner, beside having handles that can be whatever size you desire if you make them yourself, is that the pin and arc will greatly reduce the tendency to elongate the hole in the chuck since the pin is held rigidly pointing directly into the hole. The disadvantage is that for our needs we would have to make at least one of them ourselves since I don't think one is available to fit the Sherline chuck. A pin spanner would be available for the lathe shaft hole as MSC P/N 88580006 at eight dollars and change, but if you make one, why not just make the other? Again, don't use these things to tighten, just loosen, or you will be sorry! Hope this is of help to someone. Regards, Tom Bank ------- Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 11:37:04 -0700 From: Alan Marconett KM6VV Subject: Re: Indexing: Does anyone use the Sherline attachment? Lee Owens wrote: > Reading the instructions for it leaves my head spinning. It seems > like a royal pain. I don't want to break out the dial calipers and a > calculator for this. I really want the ability to make odd numbers > of cuts, holes, etc, but it looks like a "normal" dividing head > would be better. Has anyone used both? Would I be better off > building a Gingery-based dividing head? (I can get the wheels and > some other parts ready-made pretty cheap. I would just need to make > the housing and a few small parts) Hi Lee: Rotating mill vice, adjustable angle table?? And it sounds like you're talking about the 3200 indexing attachment, what with your "head spinning" comment! I must have missed what the goal was, but if you need to divide a circle into various steps on a Sherline, then either the 8700 indexer with its controller, or 3700 rotary table along with a stepper, driven by CNC makes the job easy. I must agree with you on the 3200 indexing attachment! I'd never get anything other then a simple job done with that! I use a program to generate the movements needed (Gcode) to cut timing belt pulleys or gears. And a screen in my STEP4 controller program allows me to specify a number of increments, and then "step" through them in a "conversational" mode with the controller program. I'd get the CNC ready rotary table, a single axis Xylotex driver, and run it with a laptop computer. Wouldn't be hard to do! Actually, that was the reason I originally started working on my STEP4 controller program. I wanted a rotary table I could position via computer (remember Bill?) What divisions do you need? If they are simple numbers, like GEAR TOOTH counts, then a gear or timing belt pulley could be used to position a shaft secured in bearings. I did this early on when making encoders for my robots. WAY before I got CNC'd. Alan KM6VV ------- Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 20:06:11 -0000 From: "Jim Knighton" Subject: Re: Indexing: Does anyone use the Sherline attachment? I have both and there are still situations where neither fits the task at hand. I recently used the rotary table to build a special purpose indexer that mounts on either my lathe's cross slide table or on the horizontal mill - it is fully functional on both machines. Craig at Sherline liked it enough to include it in the "Tips and Hints" page of their web site. It is tip #37 if you are interested. Regards, Jim ------- Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 15:13:08 -0700 From: "Charles Fox" Subject: Re: Re: Am I missing something? What about........ If only I could mount the milling vice on top of the rotating table ... Will look into this, too, Lee. Thanks! WHAT 1/8-scale model's cylinder heads, by the way? I'm trying to scratch a 1/12 Aston Martin DOHC V8 as used in the T-73 at Le Mans one year. Charles ------- Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 15:24:27 -0700 From: Alan Marconett KM6VV Subject: Re: Re: Am I missing something? What about........ Hi Charles: Why not mount the vice on the rotary table? The table has slots, although just one on each side in the center is not optimum. I made a tooling plate for my rotary table, and I put in holes as needed. Make yourself up a tooling plate, and put in appropriately located 10-32 threaded holes to take the mounting hardware. Alan KM6VV ------- Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 18:38:19 -0700 From: "Charles Fox" Subject: Re: Re: Am I missing something? What about........ Alan, what I really need is a way to mount the tilting table on the rotary table. Can't figure out how to make that really secure though. ------- Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 23:41:33 -0700 From: "Dave Hylands" Subject: RE: Re: Am I missing something? What about........ Hi Charles: All you need to do is drill a couple more holes in the base of your tilting table. Having a set of holes arranged in a square will allow the table to be mounted. The holes that are currently there are arranged in a rectangle. So either drill 4 holes in a square, or drill two more to match up with two of the existing ones to make a square. Once you have the 4 holes in a square, you can bolt it directly to the top of the rotary table. Dave Hylands Vancouver, BC, Canada http://www.DaveHylands.com/ ------- Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 10:26:32 -0700 From: Alan Marconett KM6VV Subject: Re: Re: Am I missing something? What about........ HI Charles: It will work! There are two center line holes on the adjustable angle table, and these will slip into the rotary table just fine. Drill another pair of holes on a line at right angles to the first two holes if desired (I think I will). If you have steppers on the XYZ axis and the rotary table, you will need a spacer under the rotary table (3/8" to 1/2") and under the adjustable angle plate (1/4" to 1/2"). It works! although Z workspace is a little limited without the "tall boy" Z ways. I've often put the rotary table on the adjustable table, but never THIS way. Just curious, what are you intending to make with this setup? Alan KM6VV ------- Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 11:56:20 -0400 From: "Jerry Glickstein" Subject: Re: Alignment [Sherline rotary table, or any other] >>> Anybody have a foolproof method for aligning the Sherline rotary table on the milling table? And then for aligning the work on the table? Dave Wood <<< Dave, first, thoroughly clean the milling table. And the bottom of the rotary table. Then, put the rotary table on the milling table. Clamp it securely. Do not overtighten. More clamps with medium force is better than a few overtightened which will cause distortion. UNPLUG the milling machine. We don't want any accidents here! Place a dial test indicator in a collet or chuck in the spindle. Move the milling table using the X and Y handwheels until you are within indicating range of the bore in the rotary table. Slowly lower the head with the Z handwheel until the tip of the dial indicator is about halfway up the bore side wall. Set the indicator at a suitable radius to sweep the bore of the rotary table. Make adjustments until you get 0 - 0 readings in the X and Y axis. Snug up the locks for both axis. Do not overtighten. The Sherline does not have non influencing clamps that are found on the better machines. A small inspection mirror comes in very handy to see the dial indicator face when it is facing away from you. Always move in the same direction to take up any backlash. When you snug up the lock(s) check to see any movement from 0 - 0, X and Y. Now, the rotary table is aligned on the milling table to the spindle rotation. If you want your work to be central, do not move the milling table. Place your work on the table. Secure it as before. Move your work until it is also reading 0 - 0 in the X and Y axis. Secure it. Do your machining. Many light cuts will ensure you do not dislodge your setup. Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) P.S. There are no shortcuts. They can be disastrous....... :) ------- Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 14:33:32 -0000 From: "John Shadle" Subject: Harbor Freight 3" rotary table. Harbor Freight now sells a 3" rotary table for less than $80. I decided I wanted one, and bought one, even though I have two other rotary tables, a Sherline 4" and a 6" Phase II for my Enco mill. It's made in India; no surprise there. The table is pretty good, although it wasn't flat, about .005" out from one side to the other. I had to make a couple of passes over it with a flycutter to get it to turn true; now the runout is less than a thousandth. The numerals on the table are easier to read than those on my Sherline, which has semi-invisible laser-etched numerals. It turns smoothly. Calibration on the handwheel is to a quarter of a degree. The finish is good, and it seems really solid. I haven't figured out a way to test the accuracy of its turning. It's said to have a steel worm gear and a bronze ring gear. It doesn't have a through-hole; instead there's a metric-sized threaded hole with a tapered top where you could mount a post. It has T-slots, and you could mount a Taig chuck on it, using the Taig chuck mount part 1221. Probably, unless you need great accuracy, this little table would be a cost-efficient companion to your Taig mill. John Shadle ------- Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 16:48:19 -0800 From: Don Rogers Subject: Re: Harbor Freight 3" rotary table It looks like a scaled down version of the four inch one. I bought one of those to convert to CNC. I've got to say that they look good, but the design and construction is not very good. The threaded center hole you speak of is the remnants of the hole that the bottom screw that holds everything together goes. On my 4", the center shaft, part of the casting for the table needs to be about 3/8" longer. It doesn't go more that 1/3 the way though the bearing. Notice I didn't say lower or upper bearing, there is only one. The top end has no bearing, it just floats in the base. The bottom end is what gives it its centering. I expect a couple whacks with a rubber mallet would have accomplished the same as fly cutting the top of the table. The brass worm gear isn't really a gear, but a notched piece of brass that hasn't been hobbed to fit the worm. On my 4", the contact is way off to one edge. One of my to do projects is to rebuild the table with upper bearings, a proper gear, and a new center shaft to allow a full bearing on the lower end. Overall, it is not a very good table, but it is a great set of parts to be worked over to make a good table. I would expect about the same from the 3". And, it would fit the table a bit better than the 4" does. I might just pick up one and see. Don ------- Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 02:18:10 -0000 From: "Michel Sitbon" Subject: moving a chuck between the lathe and the rotary table. I have and use a sherline adapter that screws into the rotary table and duplicates the spindle nose threads. Moving chucks from lathe to mill and back again. Doing this, I don't have to dismount the work and "lose center." My question is not on "losing center" but how do you get back at the same position ANGLE on the R/T when you screw it back on that adapter. Obviously you can apply different screwing torques to the lathe chuck and the latter will stop against the adapter at similar but DIFFERENT angle positions. You could have pen marks coincide to return to the same angle but I am not completely satisfied with this idea which will get you to about the same problem (lack of accuracy) again as before. Perhaps if I need this kind of accuracy I just have to plan the working sequence in a way that avoids moving the headstock chuck all along. This is evident but this though defeats the very foundation of the adapter function. any ideas guys ? Michel ------- Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 21:50:59 -0800 From: "Dave Hylands" Subject: RE: moving a chuck between the lathe and the rotary table. Michel, you could make some type of adapter which bolts to the rotary table and has a retractable pin that goes into one of the tommy bar holes on the solid portion of the chuck. Or you could add a new hole, since the tommy bar holes are probably not round from using the tommy bars in them. You would screw the chuck down the first time, and put the pin in the hole in the chuck and on your adapter and then screw the adapter down to the rotary table. Retract the pin and unscrew the chuck. Then the next time you mount the chuck, you've got an "index". Dave Hylands Vancouver, BC, Canada http://www.DaveHylands.com/ ------- Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 09:58:23 -0800 From: Alan Marconett Subject: Re: moving a chuck between the lathe and the rotary table. Michel, for the rotary table, how about a collar around the chuck, With a protrusion to register against a stop. The stop would be secured to the rotary table by a T-slot. In use, the chuck would be rotated until the protrusion is up against the stop. For the lathe spindle, the chuck should "bottom out" against the spindle's shoulder. Just how accurate is the chuck adapter? has any one checked it? Alan KM6VV ------- Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 16:34:46 -0500 From: "Jerry G" Subject: Re: moving a chuck between the lathe and the rotary table. Alan, Maybe I missed something. If the chuck (and collar with protrusion) has to be rotated more than a turn to screw the chuck on and off the chuck adapter, how do you clear the protrusion from the stop? Sounds like a physical interference to me. Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 16:58:32 -0800 From: Alan Marconett Subject: Re: moving a chuck between the lathe and the rotary table. Hi Jerry, yes, my initial description missed saying that the "stop" in the T-slot needed to be threaded into a part solidly secured to the T-slot nut. Thanks for catching that. 10-32 threaded spacers come to mind. The collar projection would also have to be of minimal mass, or it would upset the balance of the chuck when turning. This could be improved by using a dedicated hole in the chuck (not a tommybar hole, as (previously noted) they get elongated. Alan KM6VV ------- Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 17:21:30 -0800 From: Alan Marconett Subject: Re: moving a chuck between the lathe and the rotary table. But then a "reference mark" and a pointer that could be "fixtured" to always point correctly might work. Don't forget the 8X loupe. Scribe a line on the side of the chuck, and use something like a surface gauge to point to it? Can't we use a laser pointer here? ;>) Alan KM6VV ------- Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 04:19:40 -0000 From: "russenc" Subject: Re: moving a chuck between the lathe and the rotary table. Michel, I don't think this defeats the purpose of the adaptor. The primary purpose is to center the chuck to avoid the cam effect of being offcenter on the rotary table which it does. I thought about the torque solution but there are too many factors that would contribute to inaccuracies such as dry threads, lubricated threads, etc. I was thinking you could mount your work and by turning your table ensure one of the jaws of your chuck is parallel to table travel (check with a DTI to ensure), write down the readings of your rotary table and use this as a reference point. After removing and reinstalling your chuck return table to reference position and test jaw again with DTI, make adjustments as needed. I would also add additional clamps to hold the chuck to prevent the chuck from unscrewing or tightening further when taking your cuts. Russ ------- Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 10:35:43 -0600 From: "Bad Brad" Subject: RE: Re: moving a chuck between the lathe and the rotary table. Use a dial indicator, mount it to the mill table or rotary table so that the chuck can be removed without disturbing its position. (If you use a one inch travel indicator you can push the tip back far enough to clear the chuck jaws to remove it.) Indicate to one of the jaws and then remove the chuck. Replacing the chuck would then be a snap, tighten chuck until the previously indicated reading is achieved, remove the indicator. Just be sure if you mount the indicator to the mill table that the rotary table is at the same position it was when you first indicated the chuck's first position. Bad Brad Rabid Weasel Racing Team ------- Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 18:07:41 -0500 From: "Jerry G" Subject: Re: Re: Big problem [sherline group -- use of rotary table] >> Do you have a milling machine? With a rotary table? >> Then, you don't have a "Big Problem". >> Jerry G (Glickstein) P.S. There are other ways to solve your problem... From: notinsync10 To: sherlinex~xxyahoogroups.com >Yep. Got both and a lathe. I tried to come up with a way to use the >rotary table but I guess my machining mindset is suffering from >inactivity. I thought about trying it with a 1/4" end mill if I were >dexterous enough to vector the table simultaniously. I ain't. What's >your method? J.B. Clamp the rotary table on the milling machine. Put a DTI in the spindle. Move the X and Y handwheels until you "sweep" the central bore in the rotary table to be concentric (Dead Nuts). By rotating the spindle and adjusting the X and Y. Snug up on the X and Y locks. Now, the milling table/rotary table are referenced to the spindle. Write down the readings. Make a little sketch. As a cross check, rotate the rotary table through 360 degrees. Put a end mill in an end mill holder in the spindle. Clamp your part in a good V block (or two for stability). Centralize the part without moving the central position of X and Y. Use a DTI clamped to the outside of the end mill holder. And straddle read the part. And adjust the V block accordingly. Clamp the V Block down firmly. Have the end of your part so you can cut in the .500" radius. When you have achieved that position. Move the X table in one direction only to control backlash. Let's assume a .250" diameter end mill. On center, it will generate a .125" radius. Move off center by .375". Now, when you run the end mill and rotate the rotary table , it will create the .500" radius you are looking for. Do NOT try to cut all at once. This is a mini mill. Also, ALWAYS cut into the work. NEVER climb mill.... Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) P.S. Let me know if you get (understand) this, and how you make out.... Safety Goggle, please! ------- From: Dave Hylands Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 6:27 pm Subject: Re: [sherline] Set handwheels on Sherline rotary table? >> Is there a way to reset the handwheel on the rotary table? I just did one circumnavigation of a wheel rim, drilling spoke holes. Now it needs another set, but offset, and jinked 9 degrees to the side. I don't relish figuring 19 different times what three turns plus 3/5 adds up to including the original + 9 degrees. << Hi Charles, if you have a zero-resetable handwheel on your mill or lathe, you could always borrow it and put it on the rotary table... Dave Hylands Vancouver, BC, Canada http://www.DaveHylands.com/ ------- From: "Jerry G" Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 6:40 pm Subject: Re: [sherline] Set handwheels on Sherline rotary table? Yep! Order the Sherline # 3420 2" Diameter Zero adjustable Handwheel. Adapt it to the shaft of the rotary table after removing the existing handwheel...use your lathe to make either a bushing or a extension to the shaft that will accommodate the new Zero adjustable handwheel... then, crank away. Watch out when you loosen and tighten the handwheel after resetting the zero...You want to maintain the Zero! If you have any problem adapting, send me dimensions of the rotary table shaft and the bore of the new Zero adjustable handwheel. I will send you a sketch of the adapter required, or bushing. Jerry G (Glickstein) P.S. I have the Rotary Table (actually two of them.) No Zero adjustable handwheels because I am from the old school! I do have plenty of paper and pencils!!! ------- From: "Charles Fox" Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 7:34 pm Subject: Re: [sherline] Set handwheels on Sherline rotary table? Thanks all, but I'm smack dab in the middle of a ticklish operation and don't even trust myself to loosen the existing handwheel without guidance. I've drilled 20 of the spoke holes in a model motorcycle rim; 20 to go, but offset half the distance (9 degrees). I guess I'll learn to count to 9 really, really well. The ugly part is, there's one more rim to go. Whose idea was this anyhow? Thanks both for your answers. ------- From: "n2562001" Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 8:07 pm Subject: Re: Set handwheels on Sherline rotary table? Charles: Lock your table in place with the lock screw and then move your handwheel. With normal backlash you will be off a maximum of .0005" on your spacing. I seriously doubt you would be able to tell if it were three times that. Jerry Kieffer ------- From: Marcus Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 10:38 pm Subject: Re: [sherline] Re: Set handwheels on Sherline rotary table? Hi Charles: The easiest way is simply to get a couple of strips of masking tape. Stick one on the body of the turntable, and the other around the rim of the collar that has the index mark on it. Set the turntable over the first 9 degrees and then mark the new zero locations on the bits of tape with a sharp knife. No handwheel adjustments needed. Cheers Marcus ------- From: Dave Hylands Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 8:09 pm Subject: Re: [sherline] Set handwheels on Sherline rotary table? Charles wrote: >I guess I'll learn to count to 9 really, really well. Hi Charles: Well, the next best thing is to create a spreadsheet with all of the values precalculated so you don't have to think about it. Just dial in the next one. Dave Hylands Vancouver, BC, Canada http://www.DaveHylands.com/ ------- From: "Charles Fox" Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 9:12 pm Subject: Re: [sherline] Set handwheels on Sherline rotary table? I take it all back! I'm thinking "nine" when in actuality it's one full turn plus 4/5 of a turn. That puts me on a number that struck me as familiar. When I ran the original spacing -- 18 degrees to the next hole -- that meant three turns of the handwheel plus 3/5 (an extra .030" for a total of .180"). That meant I would swing the wheel three times but not end on zero; I'd continue past (the first time) to .030". The next hole was at .010" and the one after that at .040". So -- duh, Charlie -- I start at .040 and just keep repeating the same pattern. Next hole is .020, then .000, then .030 again. Hey, even I can do this. I think. Again, my thanks for all your help. I bagged out on try to swap handwheels, not because of the easy math, but because I couldn't figure out how to remove one of the adjustable ones without digging through my archives looking for an exploded view. It drives Jerry nuts, but this is (are you ready?) easier! ------- Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 15:39:44 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: Index plates - Further Discussion [taigtools] CJ: I have several watchmakers index plates as well as watchmaker lathe setups for gear cutting. I personally have found the traditional index plate sutups to be a major pain as well as questionable accuracy at times. You are correct that not all clock gears are perfect. However if you cut gears with that standard in mind it will come back to haunt you. Inaccurate gears cause friction and movement starting and stopping problems. A watch or clock movement is constantly starting and stopping as the escape wheel is controlled by the pallets. While a works may appear to function Ok free wheeling, if it is stopped on a friction point it may also not restart. While it is possible to grind teeth it is not practical. Normally you will cut teeth with a gear cutter. Gear cutters can be purchased as multiple flute or single point. You can also machine and harden your own single point cutters. For both Watch/Clock and Model Engineering type work I use the standard Sherline Rotary table (Same as supplied by Taig) for indexing without index plates. The hand wheels are calibrated in 1/10 degree segments and can be accurately divided between segments if needed using magnification. With a few minutes use it is fast, very accurate and you never have to worry about not having the right index plate. (With one hole slightly off on the count you need.) Another advantage of this system is that the work can be accurately transferred from the milling machine to the lathe without removal from the chuck. Jerry Kieffer ------- Rotary table or Indexing attachment? [sherline] Posted by: "jthandbook" jthandbookx~xxverizon.net Date: Thu May 24, 2007 6:35 am ((PDT)) Hello all! I'm purchasing a 5400 Mill chiefly, for now, dedicated to cutting gears. The needed gears are not tiny (1/2" diameter up to about 3") nor extraordinarily precise (Meccano quality) nor spoked and range from six to 140 teeth. I will be grinding my own cutters from HSS tooling blanks and turning the brass gear blanks on a mini lathe. Does anyone have advice on an indexing system? It seems that I have three possibilities: to make indexing plates, to use a rotary table, or to use the indexing attachment. I am attracted to the last two solutions as being easiest to get up and running (and just how many duplicate gears I'll need in the future is unknown) but having read the Sherline pdf's am unsure as to which is preferable. It does seem that the rotary table would be simpler to set up and use as well as offering more potential uses down the road. Advice please? Thanks, James ------- Re: Rotary table or Indexing attachment? Posted by: "Alan Haisley" alanhyx~xxadelphia.net Date: Thu May 24, 2007 8:02 am ((PDT)) James, I suspect that the biggest problem here is to do the same thing (indexing) over and over with never a miscount or mistake. If I were making gears in any quantity, which you suggest that you will be doing, I'd opt for the CNC rotary table and controller, even on the manual mill. That way you can be sure that the repetitive indexing can be done with no misturned dials or misread dial marks. Just think of the manual operations needed to index a blank for a 140 tooth gear. Now imagine making two, or three, or four of them. While you might be able to gang mill them depending on size and shape, and so reduce the number of times you need to set the dial, it still is an awful lot of times to get it exactly right with no flubs. (In my case, if I were making a gear like that, I would probably do everything right 136 or so times.) Alan ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following message features a custom plate fastened to the top of the Sherline rotary table that can easily secure a vise or various chucks on it. It features a stop to prevent Sherline's chucks from unscrewing under mill cutting load. Those with other chucks can make an adapter suited to their particular model. Be sure to look at all the pictures of this plate in use. David, well done. ------- Re: Anti-unscrewing device [sherline] Posted by: "David Clark" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:16 pm ((PDT)) --- In sherlinex~xxyahoogroups.com, "Dave Hylands" wrote: > That looks really nice. Do you have a set of plans (i.e. primarily for > the hole locations). Thanks, you got it, see: http://tech.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/sherline/photos/view/9022?b=31 The square pattern for the Sherline mill vise is the same as in their mill table: 1.16" pitch. The 3.50" diameter pattern works well for both the countersunk holes and the tapped holes for the chuck clamps. The countersink dimensions are for a piloted c'snk I have, use whatever you have. Material is MIC-6 tooling plate. DC ------- Re: Anti-unscrewing device Posted by: "David Clark" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:45 pm ((PDT)) I've also added a drawing of my RT [Rotary table] Riser Plate, see: http://tech.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/sherline/photos/view/9022?b=32 This is my version of Sherline's p/n 8710. I don't have one of their's, so I don't know it's quite the same. My design intent was to be able to leave this on the RT when attaching it to the adjustable angle plate. I added 2 additional tapped holes to the angle plate for this purpose. I wanted to be able to put the RT on either side of the top plate and have it clear the side plates. I've found it useful to do this in some gear cutting set-ups. DC ------- Aligning a rotary table [sherline] Posted by: "Craig Earls" enderw88x~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Mar 3, 2008 5:58 am ((PST)) I am used to setups taking longer than cuts, but I think I set a new record a few days ago. I needed to face mill around a circular feature I had turn on the face using my lathe. The feature had a strong taper which made it difficult to use an indicator. So the question is this, what is the most efficient way to align a part on the rotary table so that a particular point is on the axis of the table, assuming there is no feature you can use to indicate around? Craig http://enderw88.wordpress.com ------- Re: Aligning a rotary table Posted by: "Keith Green" ksggx~xxtelus.net Date: Mon Mar 3, 2008 6:12 am ((PST)) There are a couple of approaches that I might use, depending on the job. The first is kind of common-sense (but I see it messed up by people in my shop all the time): Did you have to put that taper on there before the milling operation? If it's easier to set up in the mill without a particular feature, sometimes it's easier to do all or part of the milling in between lathe operations if it cuts down on the setup time. The second way I might try, assuming you have a flat round plate with a tapered edge, is lay out the position of the feature you want to set up to and carefully punch-mark it with the most accurate methods you have available. Then use a center-finder to line up the spindle to that feature. This is very hard to do and would probably take longer than what you did and probably not be as accurate. As long as your dial was running around the taper at the same height, it should be a good indicator of center. You could make a hole in the part at the same time as you turned the OD, then put a plug (with a pin sticking up that's the same size as the hole you made in the lathe) in the center hole of the rotary table and put your part down over that. ------- Re: Aligning a rotary table Posted by: "Corndodger" corndodger2x~xxhotmail.com Date: Mon Mar 3, 2008 6:56 am ((PST)) Hi Craig, I finally got so disgusted with my inability to center the rotary table that I turned a point on the end of a bolt that screws into the table center. Then it can be easily centered with the mill. Once you're happy that the table is centered I use the mill center to position the center of the thing I want to cut onto the table. Admittedly, this is a little lame, but it works. jim ------- Re: Aligning a rotary table Posted by: "Craig Earls" enderw88x~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Mar 3, 2008 7:27 am ((PST)) The key is "but it works". I like it... ------- Re: Aligning a rotary table Posted by: "Don Williams" don.donwilliamsx~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Mar 3, 2008 7:29 am ((PST)) I have a short shaft that goes into a 6mm collet. The lower section is a very good fit in the center of the table. Once it's clamped down it's as close as I can get. To find a predetermined spot I use a 4.0mm piece of ground steel rod in a collet and bring the rod to the edge of the work. I have thin rice paper (comes from a supplier in Vermont for cleaning lenses and other optics) that I use to bring the rod up to the edge. When the paper just won't pull away without tearing, the rod is ~0.02 mm from the edge. The DRO then can be used to align the spindle with the edge of the work. Doing this for X and Y takes very little time. The only problems I have with positioning is in the Z direction. I've snugged up the jib as much as I think is wise, but am still never really sure. Backlash is a problem one has to deal with on the Sherline DRO. But so far it has done most of the things I need to do. D Dr E D F Williams P O Box 15, 41660 Toivakka, Finland http://www.kolumbus.fi/mimosa http://personal.inet.fi/cool/don.williams Alternative email: don.williamsx~xxpp.inet.fi ------- Re: Aligning a rotary table Posted by: "Dave Hylands" dhylandsx~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Mar 3, 2008 7:36 am ((PST)) Hi Craig, I normally indicate the center of the rotary table to the spindle, and with a part from the lathe, I would leave chucked up and use the adapter for screwing the chuck right onto the rotary table. Here's one way of indicating the rotary table to the mill spindle: Dave Hylands Vancouver, BC, Canada http://www.DaveHylands.com/ ------- Re: soba 6" rotary table [taigtools] Posted by: "Lester Caine" lesterx~xxlsces.co.uk Date: Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:16 am ((PDT)) leeharrysouth wrote: > I have a soba 6" rotary table that I aquired some years back and need > to locate a dealer who supplies a dividing plate set for said table. > Does any one have a dealer in mind? Also, I wonder if if will damage my > taig mill to use this 27 pound table on it. Not sure on dividing plates - I just stick on a stepper motor and run from DivisionMaster ;) The one think I would definitely say NO to is using it on the Taig. Even the 4" tables are a bit heavy when mounted on the end of the table, and benefit from a little counter weight at the other end. I suspect 27 pounds will actually bend something :( I have had the 6" table on - on it's back centrally placed, but this leaves little working height above the rotary table and very restricted movement given the Y axis width of the 'load'. If you want to add the 4th axis to a Taig go with a 3 or 4" table ;) Lester Caine - G8HFL Contact - http://home.lsces.co.uk/lsces/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://home.lsces.co.uk ------- Re: cnc indexer rotab question/opinion (sherline 8700) [sherline] Posted by: "Wayne Brandon" tiktokx~xxcox.net Date: Sun May 18, 2008 12:44 pm ((PDT)) On May 18, 2008, at 11:14 AM, Mike P. wrote: > I've been considering getting the 8700 rotary indexer. I'll be using > it in place of a manual indexing head for small gears, loco wheel spokes > (gauge one stuff) etc... I'm looking for any user opinions on > repeatability reliability and ease of use. Guess I'm getting lazy plus > it would seems it would speed up those repetative jobs. Thanks, Mike Mike, I don't own one but if you haven't seen it, this is from the instructions for the 8700: Positioning Accuracy The first thing to understand about the rotary table is the accuracy that can be obtained in real terms. The stepper motor takes 400 steps to make exactly one revolution. This motor drives the worm, which needs to make 72 revolutions to make the rotary table turn exactly one revolution. This means that it takes 28,800 steps (400 x 72) to drive the rotary table one complete revolution. Take this number and divide by the number of degrees in a circle (360°) and we end up with 80 steps for each degree or 0.0125° (or 0.75 minutes) for each step. The built-in computer will calculate to the closest position. This means the final position will be within ± ½ step. This turns out to be a very small amount, because the sine of this angle is only 0.0001091. This will amount to 0.109" (2.77mm) rise in 1000" (83'- 4" or 25.4 m) when compared to a flat plane. This is just .00022" (.0055mm) at the edge of the table. Wayne ------- Re: cnc indexer rotab question/opinion (sherline 8700) Posted by: "n2562001" jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net Date: Sun May 18, 2008 5:29 pm ((PDT)) Mike: I suspect you will be highly impressed with the 8700 cnc rotary table if you purchase one. I have one of the original units from when they had just come out many years ago. Since then the controller has been upgraded as I understand. At any rate I have had no problems other than once in awhile I accidently pull a control cable out of its socket during a program run. (Totally My fault because of unorganized setup.) I now start with both the handwheel and table at zero that allows me to start over at any time. The controller is very simple to use. Basic operations are no more than a two or three step process with the controller telling you what to do next through each step. The most complicated setups are little more than repetitive entering of the two or three step simple set ups. Since I seldom use these I have written instructions in my own words to save myself the time of looking them up in the instructions. Most of your questions will be answered by reading the instructions. However repeatability and accuracy of any piece of equipment is best understood by actual use. At least personally I have always had a hard time determining the value, accuracy and repeatability of a piece of equipment by written text. There is no substitute for hands on evaluation. What I can do is to give you a actual example and the outcome. Awhile back I cut a very fine tooth Chronograph drive wheel for a high end Swiss split second 18 size repeater pocket watch using the 8700 as an indexer. The wheel was .369" in diameter and had 280 teeth with each tooth being .0027" wide. The cutting process was monitored under a Zeiss microscope at 20x with no visible defects or tooth size variation for each tooth. In addition to being accurate and repeatable I think the most valuable aspect of this unit is the time it saves where the CNC feature is desirable. Of course it can still be used in the manual mode or a combination of both. Jerry Kieffer ------- Re: cnc indexer rotab question/opinion (sherline 8700) Posted by: "Mike P." fanaramax~xxhotmail.com Date: Tue May 20, 2008 10:40 am ((PDT)) Mr. Kieffer: Thanks for sharing your hands on experience. The example of the chrono wheel says it all for me. I'm pretty sure that this thing will easily handle what I'll be asking of it. I make a lot of smallish gears for the restorations I do (nothing near the fine'ness of watchmaking) so it will be a blessing. Mike Petree p.s. from the Corliss to your John Deere project, I've been suffering a severe machining inferiority complex :-) ------- Re: cnc indexer rotab question/opinion (sherline 8700) Posted by: "n2562001" jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net Date: Thu May 22, 2008 8:34 am ((PDT)) Mike: You would be far less impressed if you seen all of the mistakes along the way. I hang the worst ones over the bench as a reminder and I am running out of space. Most of the time only the results of a project are displayed, but seldom the many years of headaches. To be successful on a difficult project, you must first have the desire. Without it nothing will happen. You then need to make at least some time to work on a project every day with no excuses. If you then have equipment capable of doing what you wish to do everything will fall in place. When starting a difficult project I start with the most difficult part or assembly first. This part or assembly may take a hundred tries and several months to master, but once mastered the rest of the project is down hill. It is certainly worth a try for anyone who has the desire. While I understand and truly appreciate your comment strictly as a compliment, it is a statement often heard. Many people when confronted with a challenge blame what they perceive as a lack of skill. To blame one's self can in many cases lead to lack of accomplishment. In my case, when I have a problem it's never my fault. I blame the tools, the bench, the neighbors, the lighting, the Dog, but NEVER myself. I move on and find tools or whatever that will work with the limited abilities I am stuck with. To my amazement it actually works. It's far easier and far less time consuming to find a tool that will work with one`s skills, than to develope skills to compensate for a inefficient tool. (That in turn limits your skill level.) The only thing that counts is the end result, not how or what it was done with. I just had to comment. I hope you did not mind. Jerry Kieffer ------- Sherline rotary table chuck adaptor [taigtools] Posted by: "leeharrysouth" EDAVIS93x~xxComcast.Net Date: Sun Jun 1, 2008 5:46 am ((PDT)) I want to use my taig 4-jaw chuck with the Sherline rotary table. The chuck adaptor threads match up, but, the adaptor seems a little short. If the adaptor is threaded all the way onto the rotary table only a few threads are left to engage the chuck. This is because there is about a .125 inch space between where the threads start on the chuck and the back surface of the chuck. Guess I could use a spacer that would prevent the adaptor from screwing all the way down into the rotary table and thereby catch about three threads of the chuck. Can anyone tell me what they do to overcome this issue? Thanks, Johnny ------- Re: Sherline rotary table chuck adaptor Posted by: "n2562001" jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net Date: Sun Jun 1, 2008 3:59 pm ((PDT)) Johnny: The Sherline Rotary Table Chuck adaptor engages my Taig Chucks by about 2-1/2 threads. I have never had a problem or considered it a problem since three threads are generally considered full thread strength. If this is a concern I would suggest you contact Taig (Microproto) for the adaptor used with the Sherline table to mount Taig Chucks. (As shown in their Web site Photos.) Jerry Kieffer ------- Re: INDEX PLATES [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Bill Rutiser" wruyahoo05x~xxcomcast.net Date: Sat Jan 3, 2009 2:05 am ((PST)) JACK SIMS wrote: > I just bought a new rotary table with a index plate setup and tailstock the worm ratio is 1:90. I have never used index plates before and I would like to know if there is a good book on the use of them. Any info would be helpful. Thanks Jack Sims You should be able to find something useful, or at least distracting, at Google books: http://www.google.com/books?lr=&q=index+plate+worm&as_brr=1 Bill ------- Re: INDEX PLATES Posted by: "carvel webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za Date: Sat Jan 3, 2009 2:22 am ((PST)) Hi Jack: Workshop Practice Series No. 37 - "Dividing- by Harold Hall", is a complete treatise on the subject - used to be around $20 or so from the likes of Blueridge, Amazon etc etc , Kind Regards, Carvel ------- Re: INDEX PLATES [LittleEngines -- question was sent to more groups] Posted by: "Bill" mister.billx~xxstarband.net Date: Fri Jan 2, 2009 11:25 pm ((PST)) Jack, Dave Gingery's book on building you own dividing head has one of the easiest to understand explanations of how to use the index plates I've seen. It's book #6 in his series of building your machine shop from scrap. I bought an 8" rotary table from Harbor Freight, and the instructions, or lack thereof, were terrible. Gingery's book cleared it up for me, but as always, your mileage may vary! Bill ------- Re: INDEX PLATES Posted by: "Ken Strauss" ken.straussx~xxsympatico.ca Date: Sat Jan 3, 2009 4:16 am ((PST)) You might find the article at http://www.littlemachineshop.com/instructions/UsingARotaryTable.pdf useful. It discusses index plates towards the end and the price is right! ------- Re: INDEX PLATES Posted by: "PeterH" peterh5322x~xxrattlebrain.com Date: Sat Jan 3, 2009 10:57 am ((PST)) With a calculator which can accept fractions, and reduce them, you can figure out every possibility without using tables. Your worm is 90:1. Your plates should have numbers like 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, ..., basically most of the prime numbers and other numbers up to 49. Let's say you want to divide a workpiece into 35 equal parts. You enter 90 and then 35 into the calculator's fraction accumulator (usually labeled a b/c). 90 / 35 = 2, 4, 7, which means two full turns of the crank plus 4 steps on the 7 wheel. You don't have a 7 wheel, but you do (or you should) have a 14 wheel. So, 2 * 4 = 8 and 2 * 7 = 14, so you would use two full turns of the crank plus 8 steps on the 14 wheel. Dividing heads are made with 4, 40 and 90 ratios, and perhaps others. 40 is probably the most popular. As every setup involves dividing the ratio by the number of steps, you almost always come out with a full number of cranks plus a fractional number of cranks which, hopefully, fits your wheel set. For dividing by numbers larger than 50, special "high divisor" sets of wheels are occasionally available. However, such sets include only common numbers above 50, and not every prime from 51 through 129. The above is called simple indexing. Machinery's Handbook includes a section on compound indexing, which allows one to divide by almost any number, simply by using two of the commonly available wheels. The books which other folks have mentioned do not properly cover compound indexing. In fact, I have yet to find a book which DOES cover compound indexing properly. There is a third technique, differential indexing, but that requires a different kind of head altogether. ------- Re: INDEX PLATES Posted by: "Glenn N" sleykinx~xxcharter.net Date: Sat Jan 3, 2009 12:09 pm ((PST)) I uploaded some files you may find useful. In the files section folder Indexing Head ------- Re: INDEX PLATES Posted by: "leasingham_connelly" martin.connellyx~xxsiemens.com Date: Sat Jan 3, 2009 11:32 am ((PST)) Didn't you get instructions with it? If not look here:- http://www.minitech.com.au/images/PDFs/Rotary%20Table%20Guide.PDF Martin ------- Re: Centering the mill spindle [sherline] Posted by: "chieftoolmaker" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Sun Feb 15, 2009 7:23 pm ((PST)) DW Holtman wrote: > Hello, I have another question. I'm trying to center up a piece held in the three jaw chuck that is attached to the rotary table. What is the proper procedure for centering the rotary table with the spindle? I could not find this procedure anywhere. Thank you in advance for any help. Best, DW Holtman < Hi DW: To "center the Rotary Table with the spindle" Put a DTI in a collet in the spindle. Or a drill chuck. Set the radius of gyration of the spindle (and indicator point with about a .005" pre-load) so it is reading the center hole of the Rotary Table. Have the dial of the DTI facing you. Set the bezel of the DTI to read 0 by rotating the bezel ring. Move the X (right to left to take up backlash) and Y axis (in to take up backlash) until you get a 0 reading at four quadrants. (clockwise on both hand wheels) 12 o'clock, 3 o'clock, 6 o'clock, and 9 o'clock. Always move in the same direction after correction. To make it easier, get an inspection mirror. Rectangular is preferred. That way, when the dial of the DTI is facing away, you can use the mirror. Watch out for "parallax* * = parallax is when looking at a dial and indicator point other than dead on and you can get an error. Once you arrive at the correct centered position of the spindle to the Rotary Table, write down the numbers of the respective hand wheels. Final check is to rotate the Rotary table and look for any deviations of the DTI reading. That would be the TIR * of the Rotary Table. * = Total Indicator Reading.... Later, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Re: Centering the mill spindle Posted by: "alenz2002" alenzx~xxbellsouth.net Date: Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:03 pm ((PST)) "chieftoolmaker" wrote: > To make it easier, get an inspection mirror.....> Rectangular is preferred. That way, when the dial of the DTI is facing away, you can use the mirror. Watch out for "parallax* Jerry G (Glickstein) < Or get one of those small unbreakable mirrors with a magnetic backing and stick it to the mill column. I find it handier than a regular inspection mirror. I think I found mine at a sporting goods store in the camping supplies section. al ------- Re: Centering the mill spindle Posted by: "mileagemayvary" gizmomakerx~xxbigpond.com Date: Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:21 pm ((PST)) Assuming you have a lathe, and that you use the 3/8 mill holder: I took a piece of approx 12 mm diameter steel X 33 mm long. (1) I turned down one end for a length of 15 mm to approx 9.5 mm diameter so it is a nice fit in the 3/8 mill holder after polishing. (2) I turned down the other end for a length of 6.6 mm and a diameter of 10.95 mm so it is a nice fit in the RT center hole. I used the lathe chuck to do this but you could probably increase the accuracy by using the mill holder after step (1). In use this device is a push fit but if you use the mill holder to turn it down you will need to file a flat for the set screw. I drilled a radial hole thru the remaining 12 mm area and wired on a label with a description "Center RT" so it does not get lost amongst the other offcuts and jigs, and so it is easily found because I frequently reach for this part. Just put it into the mill holder and then move the table so the spigot drops nicely into the RT center hole. Dirty and fast, takes just seconds, and plenty accurate enough. My equipment is generally used in production and I do not have the time to fiddle with dial indicators etc. Rob ------- Re: Centering the mill spindle [sherline] Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Sun Feb 15, 2009 5:01 pm ((PST)) "DW Holtman" wrote: > Hamilton, > Thank you for taking the time to respond. I already read that. All it says is, "is by indicating the hole in the rotary table". I'm kind of new and I think it means using a DTI? I have a Starrett Last Word indicator I picked up on Ebay. The way I have been mounting it in the spindle for aligning the milling vise etc it is not centered in line with the spindle. Doesn't it need to be in line with the spindle? < DW, Watch this video beginning at the 43 minute mark to see how it's done. http://techtv.mit.edu/videos/84-machine-shop-5 Then start at the beginning of the series: http://techtv.mit.edu/videos/142-machine-shop-1 and watch all 10 of them all the way through. You will get a very good, comprehensive, 8 hour machining course. DC David Clark in Southern Maryland, USA ------- NOTE TO FILE: The above address at M.I.T. does indeed provide a very good introduction to using the common machines and accessories found in a metalworking machine shop. Some information is basic but there are other machining tips and safety procedures that I have never seen in the many books I have. And watching a procedure versus reading about it is always instructive. Free and worth watching. ------- Re: Drilling holes in a circular pattern on the Sherline Mill [sherline] Posted by: "Pierre Coueffin" pcoueffinx~xxgmail.com Date: Sat Nov 28, 2009 5:45 pm ((PST)) On Sat, Nov 28, 2009, retabeth wrote: > I need to drill a series of small holes indexed (5) in a circle and was wondering if I need to buy an indexing attachment for the Sherline Mill? Has anyone done a homemade version? < If you only need to do it once, a bit of trig will get you the x-y coordinates to drill at. Try this website: http://www.selectsmart.com/darex/bolt_cir.html ------- Re: Drilling holes in a circular pattern on the Sherline Mill Posted by: "Mike Bauers" mwbauers55x~xxwi.rr.com Date: Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:17 pm ((PST)) I've seen the like as production jig/fixtures. You make a holder for the disk with an over-layer or restraining bars to lock/bolt-down the disk. You have one drill hole and another locator hole that duplicates one of the other holes in the part. It works by you centering the drill-hole under the chuck of the mill with a rod of the same size as the drill you are going to use. You lower the rod into the drill-hole and wiggle the fixture just a bit to ensure it is centered under the chuck. The fixture is designed to be clamped to the mill table. For ease of this example the holes you want to drill are equally spaced around the disk and in a circular line on that disk. You now have the fixture positioned and locked to the mill table. You leave the mill table alone and use just the up and down of the chuck tower. The fixture is designed to have the disk nest into a matching recess. Depending on what materials you have to work with and how large the disk is, you have designed the fixture to lock the disk with a restraining top plate or a couple of bars that conveniently bolt into place. You place the disk into the fixture and lock it down. You then insert the proper drill, run it while raised to ensure it's running straight and true, then lower the running tool down to the drill the disk. When you made the fixture you also laid out and drilled what will be the next hole, you also polished and rounded the cut end of a rod that is the same size as your drill. It only needs to be about the length of a finger, just a conveniently long enough rod to handle. Once you drill your first hole in that disk, you will next unlock the disk, rotate it so that the hole lines up with the next hole in the fixture. That is a locator hole. You will next insert that matching diameter into the locator hole, re-lock the restraining plate/bars over the piece, drill the new hole, unlock, rotate, lock-down the disk, repeat, repeat........ Expected variables may be provisions in your fixture for burrs around the holes on the backside, how thick of a base you decide to make your fixture from, even if you make the fixture all metal or just some metal. [You can always use some quality thick plywood or any hardwood scrap for the fixture base.] If your disk is moderately small and you only want to make a very few parts, you can use a chunk of hardwood board and a cover plate of a plain common hardware store metal electrical box flat cover. Those covers are about 6 x 6 of likely thick enough steel......... and cost about 50 cents new. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi ------- work clamps for Sherline rotary table [sherline] Posted by: "romainkill" rkillingsworthx~xxsc.rr.com Date: Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:48 am ((PST)) I am trying to learn how to use my Sherline rotary table. I am having trouble clamping small pieces to the rotary table with the small right angle shaped clamps provided. Can anyone suggest a better clamp that will fit the Sherline T slot and still be small enough to use on this 4" rotary table. Thanks, Richard ------- Re: work clamps for Sherline rotary table Posted by: "Fox Charles" cafox513x~xxverizon.net Date: Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:04 am ((PST)) You're right -- that is a bear. I usually use a combination. And since I don't know the names, and don't know where I got them, I'll send pictures in hopes someone else can ID them for you (us). I posted it now under Sherline, Photos, CAFOX513. It's the only one in there -- can't miss it. ------- Re: work clamps for Sherline rotary table Posted by: "Chuck Rice" Chuckx~xxWildRice.com Date: Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:22 am ((PST)) Can you use the clamps to hold the vise and the vise to hold the part? or the chuck adaptor (Part Number 37090) to hold a chuck? Chuck ------- Re: work clamps for Sherline rotary table Posted by: "Rich Dean" toolman8x~xxcopper.net Date: Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:34 am ((PST)) Richard, I never use those rough edged steel L clamps. Mars the aluminum mill table top. Cut clamps from aluminum angle stock and drill the hole. Make sizes as needed. RichD ------- Re: work clamps for Sherline rotary table Posted by: "chieftoolmaker" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:11 pm ((PST)) Hey Rich D, Richard, When I do use those L clamps, I always use a 1" square of . 026" thick CB* material between the edge of the L clamp and the mill table. * CB = Circuit Board (Fiberglass). Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Re: work clamps for Sherline rotary table Posted by: "Dave Hylands" dhylandsx~xxgmail.com Date: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:42 pm ((PST)) Hi Richard, You may want to consider making jigs as well, like I did over here: http://www.davehylands.com/Machinist/CNC/Wheel-Widener-2/ This is especially useful if you're doing multiples of parts. Of course, you could also create your own clamps. I've modified some of mine: http://www.davehylands.com/Machinist/Modifications/Hold-Down-Clamps/ And I'll often use packing instead of the step blocks (a scrap of material about the same thickness as the material being machined to go under the back of the clamp). And also consider using a tooling plate (just a flat piece of aluminum). You can drill and tap holes to your heart's content in the tooling plate to make it easier to use regular nuts and bolts with large washers as clamps. Or you could something like a small version of this: http://www.hightechsystemsllc.com/pt_work_holding_system.html Dave Hylands Shuswap, BC, Canada http://www.DaveHylands.com/ -------