Shaper bits and their toolholders are discussed here. Lots of ideas. The shaper files are sometimes the hardest to categorize of any on this site. They frequently start as one subject and wander off onto other subjects. For example, someone asks about how to fix a shaper physical problem. The message thread, which you would expect to find in the file "Shaper Repair General" sometimes ends up better suited for the "Shaping Tips" file if the real problem is bad technique, not a bad shaper. But I cannot and will not put the thread in all files possible. The thread goes into the shaper file that is most appropriate (my choice) or causes me the least editing/typing and/or headache at the end of a long day. Just not enough room on my site for posting threads in multiple files. As mentioned on my home page, you will get the most information out of these files if you check through all of most likely ones for the problem at hand, if the file you try first does not have a full answer. It sure isn't a perfect system, but after a while you will gain the knack of scrolling/skimming files at high speed. If you have copied the files to your site, you can use your text editor or word processor to open all the shaper files at once, and do word searches across all open files at once. Yours can't do that? Get a free copy of NoteTab Light through the home page link. A good tool. If you got to this file directly from my HOME PAGE, return there by using your browser's back button. BUT if you came to this file as the result of a web search engine, see more than 70 additional files on my home page Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ SAFETY WARNING BEWARE: DO NOT ASSUME that any subject matter or procedure or process is safe or correct or appropriate just because it was mentioned in a news/user group or was included in these files or on this site or on any other web site or was published in a magazine or book or video. 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(c) Copyright 2003 - 2008 Machining and Metalworking at Home The form of the collected work in this text file (including editing, additions, and notes) is copyrighted and this file is not to be reproduced by any means, including electronic, without written permission except for strictly personal use. ============================================================================ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 02:57:53 -0000 From: "shapeaholic" Subject: Re: Doug Jones' Tutorial On Stepper Motors Jonas: Sounds to me that the holder that you have will hold 5/16" bits, which would make it a bit big for your machine. It would be more appropriate to a machine the size of my Alba 10", or maybe a 12" sheldon. Too much overhang will cause you chatter, and a poor finish ( not to mention it can hit the frame of the machine if your not carefull) You should consider making one, not that hard and can mostly be done on the shaper. Here is a link to a picture of one I made. It worked real well until I ruined trying to heat treat it. www.metalworking.com/DropBox/_2001_retired_files/shaper_toolholder.jpg Another tactic that worked for me was to make bits from 3/8 x 3/4 tool bit stock. They are a little more expensive, but make a very rigid setup. I put a picture in the Alba folder called "shaper tool.jpg" It shows a 1/2 x 1 bit setup in my machine taking a .075" plus cut. On the Atlas I had until recently I also used 3/8" square bit in the tool post directly (with a spacer so the bolt would go tight). Another tool holder that is easier to find and works well is an armstrong for carbide bits. It holds them straight up and down ( no rake angle). I use one on my Alba sometimes and find it very handy. Cheers Pete ------- Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 04:18:04 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: SB-7 Tool Post >Can anyone of you SB-7 owners provide the dimensions for a SB >toolpost and screw? Wayne--Dimensions for an Armstrong "turret" type tool holder and slotter tool holder are at "Files"--see: "Holder..."; these are of the size used with 7-inch shapers. Using these dimensions you could easily build your own. Or you could look for one of the same size such as an "Armstrong" or an "Atlas" A shaper tool holder generally holds the tool bit straight unlike lathe tool holders for HSS cutters which hold the tool at an angle. However, straight lathe tool holders are avialble for carbide tooling which work great in shapers with HSS tool bits. Even "angled" lathe tool holder can be used in a shaper, but you will have to grind your tool bits differently. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 04:57:02 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Logan 8" Shaper Toolpost Capacity? Pete--Armstrong was the principal out-source for shaper tool holders and were the ones generally used by shaper manufacturers who didn't use their own "branded" tool holder. The "turreted" head Armstrong 2060, as described below by Joe W., is a standard size for the smaller 7 & 8 inch shapers. My Lewis-10 also uses that size. My holder, not of Armstrong manufacture, is "branded" as an "Atlas Shaper Tool Holder" and has measurements similar to Joe's Armstrong: shank = 0.395 x 0.865 x 4.50 long; turret OD = 1.0; overall length = 5.5; tool holding capacity = 1/4-inch square. A similar sized turret-head tool holder is at "files" and listed as "holder..."; one of these could be readily made with either the dimensions shown or be modified with dimensions of your own choosing. It is designed to also hold 1/4 square tool bits. You can also use larger square tool bits directly in the lantern tool post without any other tool holder. If you use carbide tooling, however, either directly in the tool post or in a tool holder, you will need to devise a method to lift your tool out of the work on the return stroke to prevent chipping the carbide. Additionally, if you use a slotting attachment, you need to engage the "clapper hold down" at the right bottom of your "clapper box"; note that your clapper "claps" (lifts) free when the "hold down" is disengaged for normal cutting, and can move only slightly under spring pressur when the "hold down" is engaged. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 19:36:36 -0000 From: "karlw144" Subject: tool bit angles I'm trying to use 3/8" square tool bits right in the tool post on my ATLAS 7B shaper (no armstrong type tool holder) and I'm evidently not sharpening the bit correctly. I'm cutting steel and it comes out too rough. Can anyone point me to a good picture with the correct angles called out? thanks, karl ------- Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 21:31:35 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: tool bit angles Karl--There are several sources in "Files" here that address shaper cutting tools' shapes. I suggest that, perhaps, you commit all of "Files" to a ZIP-100 disk so that these sources would be instantly available to you. Look also inside the Army shaper TM's at "Files". A straight carbide-type lathe toolholder (it holds the tool bit at an angle of incidence to the work of 90 degrees), using 1/4 HSS tool bits, may be more versatile of a tool holding method than clamping 3/8-inch square HSS tool bits directly into the lantern tool post. Honing for the finish cut, as Mario did, often helps. Also ensure that you're using the correct speed, feed and DOC for the material cut, the type material cutter used, and for both the roughing cuts and the finish cut as they're different. "Roughness" is a relative term used to describe a surface finish. Often it is not caused entirely by the tool bit. The degree of stability of the shaper during the cutting stroke may cause surface roughness too. That said, do you have any non-needed vibrations in your shaper? Need to track these vibrations down as to source and eliminate them. Maybe your roughness is due to tool "chatter"--maybe something is loose. How's your clapper: snug yet clapping? Are you using properly an outboard traveling table support--it sure makes a table much more "solid"? How about the gibs all over? Are they tite enuf without binding and properly lubricated with waylube? And, then, is your vertical axis gib for the table snugged-up tite--the knee has gotta be locked while cutting. Also, since you're cutting steel, all steels ain't born the same. Make sure you're using quality known designation steel and vary the speed, feed, and DOC based on its type and hardness--use a speed/feed/DOC cutting table. Some steel is junk steel--as in "hardware store steel"--and is classified as steel only becuz it's strongly magnetic and ain't black like iron. This junk is stringy when cut and difficult to get smooth except by grinding; I use it all the time when I don't need a good finish...like most of the time. Also, look at lubrication of the work and cutting bit. Use the proper cutting lubrication for the material worked and cutting bit used. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 23:15:33 -0000 From: "al_messer" Subject: Re: tool bit angles Karl, I ground mine just like a lathe tool bit, with not quite so much back rake. On the final cut, I would downfeed about .005" and cover the workpiece with oil or mineral spirits. Al Messer ------- Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 21:00:11 -0000 From: "matt_isserstedt " Subject: Armstrong vs. Bare HSS Square I've used plenty of Armstrong-style forged toolbit holders in my small Atlas shaper. However, one guy told me to just run the square toolbit (of a larger size, equal to the slot width on the lantern post) clamped up, no forged holder needed. Any thoughts or experience on this? My opening thoughts are that the forged holder might be a little more rigid since the forging is generally taller. The other thought I had was that grinding wheel time on a 3/8" bit is probably a *lot* less than making up a 5/8" one... -Matt ------- Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 16:39:16 -0500 From: "Dave Audette" Subject: Re: Armstrong vs. Bare HSS Square I use both methods. If I want the tool at an angle I'll use an Armstrong but quite often I'll just grab a large bit and use it in the toolpost without a holder. Dave Worcester, Mass www.broncosaurus.net ------- Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 08:49:10 -0600 From: "Ray Ethridge" Subject: Re: Armstrong vs. Bare HSS Square I don't own one of the forged toolbit holders so any perceived advantage is only speculation on my part. I have only used 1/2" toolbits on my Sheldon and they work fine. The problem is that you have to extend them pretty far out to clear things in general. Even though a 3/8" toolbit would have to be less rigid than a 1/2" for the same extension, since the forged holder will hold the bit much closer to the work there should be an overall gain by going to the forged style IF you keep the toolbits close to the end of the tool holder. If you extend the tool way out you have lost any advantage you may have had with the toolholder. Ray Ethridge ------- Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:55:39 -0000 From: "k3vyl " Subject: Re: Armstrong vs. Bare HSS Square The real purpose of the armstrong toolholder is to supply the toprake or third angle to a lathe tool,and allow for fine adjustment of the height.This function was lost in antiquity,as most mechanics used them as if they were a solid piece of steel.Since the shaper tool doesn't need to be on center, as a lathe tool does,the toolholder will basicly serve as an extender.Whether the rake angles of the toolholders are suitable for shaper work,I am not sure.I've yet to obtain one of the little gems. RC ------- Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 21:33:34 -0000 From: "Art Volz " Subject: Re: Armstrong vs. Bare HSS Square ??????? What Armstrong toolholder are you talking about? The "Armstrong Planer and Shaper Tool", as depicted and described on page 21 of their 1966 catalog (that I'm currently eye-balling) has ZERO RAKE in the tool--it was designed so that it could also be used "...with the tool bit reversed and the tool turned around, thus throwing the cutting point behind center of tool and working as a "goose neck" tool." The main strength of an Armstrong style SHAPER tooholder is that the toolbit can be held at various angles allowing it, amongst other things, to conveniently shape undercuts which would be impossible to do with just a "big square cigar" tool bit stuck into the lantern tool post. I have an Atlas brand adjustable toolholder which functionally is exactly the same as the #39 Armstrong SHAPER toolholder: ZERO RAKE and RAKE ain't adjustable. LATHE toolholders, which Armstrong also made and continues to make, are different: they come in two main varieties: those for HSS bits where the bit IS held at an angle and those for Carbide bits where the bit is held at zero degrees to the shank. If Armstrong style adjustable SHAPER toolholders are not available for use on a shaper (Armstrong no longer makes any), a LATHE toolholder designed for CARBIDE bits is recommended. RC, you'll see, when you "obtain one of the little gems", a REAL SHAPER toolholder. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 11:55:19 -0000 From: "tango1niner " Subject: Re: Armstrong vs. Bare HSS Square I like a 3/8 X 3/4 HSS tool bit better than 3/8 square. Much more rigid tool. Anthony ------- Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 05:57:58 -0000 From: "don_kinzer " Subject: Shaper Toolholders I was asked on another forum for more detail about the toolholders that I had made for my recent internal spline and gear cutting projects. In response, I put together another page with pictures that may be found here: http://www.kinzers.com/don/MachineTools/shaper_toolholder Don Kinzer Portland, OR ------- Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 09:02:48 EST From: jmartin957x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Shaper Toolholders Don: Nice job on the toolholders. I've been thinking of making a couple myself. Have kept my eyes open for them on eBay and in machinery dealers, but prices have been pretty steep. While I've occasionally used Armstrong lathe toolholders in the shaper (Rhodes), I've generally just used 7/16" tool bits directly in the lantern. Two bits to get the height. If making the toolholders, I might do two things differently. On the extension type, I'd use a setscrew rather than a roll pin, to allow the bar to be rotated. Although, I admit, you'd almost always want it at six o'clock. On the regular holder, I'd cut extra slots at different angles, as in the commercial shaper toolholders. Nice to be able to swing the bit to finish the side of a dovetail or slot, for instance. I've also seen a neat internal toolholder in which the lantern toolpost was replaced by the boring bar itself. Fewer parts, less flex. Shop made, not commercial. John Martin ------- Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 15:06:59 +1300 From: Tom Subject: Re: Interesting Shaper Tool Set on Ebay remlapfluke wrote: > I've never used em like this. Does somebody > in the group use these type tools? Do they work well? Jeff Looking at the shape of them, these were intended for lathe use. The toolbits supplied for shaper & planer use were entirely different. O K used to cover the field with 8 different sized toolholders, from 3/8" x 5/4" x 4-1/2" to 1-1/4" x 2-1/2" x 14" The planer & shaper models could be had double ended. Impero, an Italian tooling company now owned by Sandvik made similar tooling both in Carbide & HSS. Tom ------- Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 03:07:12 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Interesting Shaper Tool Set on Ebay Tom--I'm presently looking at Page 156 of one of my numerous olde & original editions of shaper books and it depicts, in Fig. 214, a set of tool bits exactly like the ones pictured on Ebay and a special shaper tool holder with which to hold them so that the rounded portion of the tool bit shank is gripped axially in the direction of cut. The illustration of the tool holder is marked at the tool holding end "STRAIGHT SIZE C" and below it with what appears to read "1/2 #1". The numbered portion may wrong...it's not clear. On the left side of the tool holder shank it is marked "THE O.K. TOOL CO." on top, followed by what appears to read "PATENTED OCT 19, 1905" below it, a diamond logo with "OK" in its center is beneath the patent date, and below it is marked "SHELTON CONN". It is shown in a rectangular container with a square-headed wrench and with 12 shaped inserts, like the ones on eBay, 6 on top and 6 on the bottom: numbers 2, 11L, 9, 1, 17, 22, and numbers 27, 11R, 12, 7, 20, 5. There is also another shaper tool holder that is shown, but it is quite different, and is perhaps the shaper tool holder that you are referring to, Tom. It too uses rounded shank inserts, but of a different type in that the rounded tool bit shanks are held vertically and parallel to the tool holder shank. The drawing of that holder has lettered inscriptions on it, but I am unable to decipher their meaning. One other toolholder is depiced as part of Fig. 214, one that is marked "HAND-GRINDING HOLDER FOR O.K. TOOLS SIZE C". The paragraph that describes Fig. 214 states: "There are also on the market patented sets of tools and tool holders which have many convenient features. The set illustrated in Fig. 214 is made especially for shaper work by the "OK" Tool Company." Hope you don't mind my quotes, Tom. :-) Wish my scanner still worked...it did until my number one son "fixed" it...so I could post a PIC. Art ------- Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 12:52:45 -0800 (PST) From: Art Volz Subject: RE: "Shaper" Tool Hold on eBay DeWaynne Tackett wrote: > hey art, i agree it is a great design. > i wish i had one 4 times as large for my 16" G&E. > why do you feel it is not a shaper tool? dewaynne DeWaynne--(I'm also posting this Msg to Metal_Shapers, in reply to your recent posting in re a "shaper" tool holder on eBay listed as number...) Back in the days between the two World Wars, the concept of "springy- ness" was still in vogue amongst old-timer machinists used to operating "springy" machine tools. They had a belief that "springy" tools (I have found NO engineering analysis that says this is true.) gave better finishing cuts on "loose as a goose" machine tools which their oldie machines often were. I have seen one or two very oldie illustrations of such springy tools being proposed for use on shapers, but they were sketches and not actual photos. (Maybe Tom "Shopswarf" M. has further info in his voluminous archives??) From at least 1939 on (the oldest Armstrong catalog I currently have) Armstrong, the largest U.S. manufacturer of lathe and shaper tool holders, offered "springy" "gooseneck" tool holders only for some of their cutoff tool holders and for their "spring threading tool". For shapers, other than for their internal slotting tool holders, they only offered their RIGID adjustable tool holder, although they also stated that the RIGID carbide tool holders (lathes) could also be used. Your tool holder appears to be a one-off and was most likely designed for use on a lathe for threading. However, many different types of tool holders can be stuffed into shaper lantern tool posts and then "declared" as being "shaper tool holders", whether they were designed for that purpose or not. You tool holder appears to have been designed as a "springy gooseneck" "S" (straight) threading tool holder and the design apparently also addresses the problem with "gooseneck" tool holders in that they have a tendency to also spring sideways as well. Your tool holder appears to be extremely well machined, but with a non- characteristic (for industrial use) blued high finish: it does not appear to have been a standard commercial product but a one-off. With the interesting design--probably to counteract springing sideways--and the quality of the work, I suggest that it was most likely a final machining project for a Vo-Tech student or one taking High School Shop. The design appears to be adaptable to larger construction; you should have no difficulty in machining one for your G&E-16 if you so wish. Then you can report back, to this group, on its relative effectiveness when compared, in side-by-side tests, with the standard equivalent sized Armstrong adjustable shaper tool holder. When can we expect your tests to start? When can we expect your results? Art (Houston) ------- Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 22:21:48 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: "Shaper" Tool Hold on eBay My Ammco came with a set of what I was told were shaper tools, although of course I have no way of knowing if they really were or if that was just the belief of the guy I got it from. The V shape tool and the left and right knife tools are all goosenecked while the two slot tools are not. They are all made from a single piece ot tool steel, forged to form the gooseneck. While they all work well, apart from the one I broke, (dropped on the floor...) I have also used short rigid straight tools with equal success and with no noticeable degradation in surface finish. This might simply prove that the machine is rigid enough not to need spring tools of course. But I would in general argue that it is bad practice to introduce an error to correct another error, unless of course there is no choice. So I suppose if somone does a trial and finds they cannot get a good finish with a rigid tool and can with a spring one, they may as well use them. But I would also check the condition of the machine and take up all gib strips etc to make sure the machine is getting the best chance possible. I have seen it argued that the edge of the tool should be behind the neutral plane of its shank. The argument is that the tool will bend (nothing is totally rigid) and if the edge is too far forward, then the bend will be tending to put the edge deeper into the job. Maybe, but I think the tendency for a tool to pull into the job is more of a problem in practice. Too much top rake can cause the tool to pull downwards which at best leads to chatter and at worst can cause the tool to grab and either stall the machine or break. This is worst with wider tools like slot cutters. Locking the downfeed after setting the cut can help, since any backlash in the feed will let the tool move down into the job if the tool tries to pull it forwards. The Jones and Shipman (like Armstrong) holders that came with my Alba 1A are really meant for a lathe, and so have the built in top rake. This means that they need to be ground to remove most of this and only provide the rake that is actually needed. If any lathe owner happens to have the opposite problem I would consider a swap! You can make a very satisfactory tool by brazing a small piece of HSS onto a good stout mild steel shank. This lets you use up those little bits of tool steel that are too good to throw away and too small to fit a holder. The heat needed to temper HSS is higher than brazing temperature, at least the ones I have done do not appear to have been adversely affected. I also have a home made looking holder that came with the Alba 1A with the gooseneck formed by drilling and cutting a slot to it, much the same idea as the one on Ebay, but without any side support. It takes a round toolbit held by a grubscrew. Have to confess I have never taken a cut with it. Incidentally a truly sharp tool needs much less cutting force than a dull one, so maybe a diamond hone would be a better investment than a spring tool. regards John ------- Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 23:13:59 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: "Shaper" Tool Hold on eBay John--There are many illustrations, in my older books, of forged tools for shapers with goose necks, as you describe, being part of the original forging. In fact Emanuele Stieri's CY1942 book "Shapers" depicts such a forged tool bit. I have a number of other oldie books that also depict similar forged tool bits with goose necks. Interestingly, John, about 1984 I purchased, from Wholesale Tool in Houston, a "J & S" (Jones and Shipman) 1/4-inch bit size Carbide (bit is held parallel to the shank w/o any top rake) lathe tool holder. (It was intended for use on my lathe of the time, a c. 1890 John and W.F. Barnes 4-1/2 "Velocipede" that had been adapted, by the previous owner, for a 1/4 HP motor. It was a very old lathe then (and much older today) and was really "loose as a goose" and could never really get up safely to the speed (babbitt bearings and all) required for effective use of carbide tooling. My usual method of "finishing" with it was with judicious manual applications of Swedish milling machines (bastard cut files) followed by some wet/dry polishing paper of extra fine grit.) Now, I can use my J&S holder, for "straight" applications, in my Lewis-10 and when I'm not using my Armstrong adjustable. > You can make a very satisfactory tool by brazing a small piece of HSS > onto a good stout mild steel shank. Good idea! The use of the round tool bit is interesting in itself. I wonder if the designer/maker had an application that required a round tool bit, or that it was just easier to form the bit-holding-hole with a round hole (drilling/reaming) rather than with a square one (drilling/broaching)? Machine tools enjoy the use of really sharp HSS tool bits; the recommendation of a diamond hone is a good one. I think, if I remember correctly, that Mario V. described how he final honed his shaper tool bits with such a diamond hone. (Mario?) Art (Houston) ------- Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 00:03:59 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: "Shaper" Tool Hold on eBay I've used carbide quite a lot. Although it is true that to get the productivity gains that are possible you need a machine that is proportionately faster, you can also benefit from an excellent surface finish, provide you have the means to sharpen them. I have a Glendo Accu-finish diamond wheel machine, with wheels of 260, 600, and 1200 grit. This gives a lovely finish on either carbide or HSS. So that is an excellent machine to have...usual disclaimer applies, I don't own shares in the company. There is a disadvantage, the wheel is wetted with a water based compound, and the power switch is not well protected against water getting in. Mine went with quite a bang while I was lapping with the wheel horizontal, one of the modes you can use. (Lapping the sides of home made piston rings on the fine wheel is a good idea.) I know that some say that you should not use carbide on the shaper unless you have a positive lifting mechanism on the clapper box. It is bad for the edge to be dragged backwards on the job and it is liable to chip. I've got away with it so far, very successfully, so I probably won't let it worry me until it happens. There are of course a lot of variations, both in the carbide itself, and also these days with the ceramics, which I have no experience with myself. The bits I am using are uncoated triangular inserts which were used industrially and then given away at our club. They would be no use without some means to sharpen them. I braze them onto a key steel shank, then sharpen them up. They are good for starting out on castings where you might find hard spots...although again they are not supposed to like interrupted cuts, but seem to cope pretty well in practice. I did once find that the weld in the middle of Stuart Double Ten crankshaft was too hard for even the carbide to tackle, so made a new one from solid. (Don't be put off, Stuart no longer make those shafts by welding two pieces together. I think I found out why!) I'm not sure why the hole in the holder was made round, maybe he had a piece of round HSS to use. The round stuff can be handy, but best to only use it where you will want to adjust the angle, otherwise it can be fiddly making sure you have the correct side rake. Of course your swedish mill can make a round hole square without too much trouble! regards John ------- Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 10:51:30 -0600 From: "Mario L Vitale" Subject: Re: Re: "Shaper" Tool Hold on eBay Just so you know I haven't died, I'm responding to Art's comment below... > Machine tools enjoy the use of really sharp HSS tool bits; the > recommendation of a diamond hone is a good one. I think, if I > remember correctly, that Mario V. described how he final honed his > shaper tool bits with such a diamond hone. (Mario?) > Art (Houston) That's right, I do frequently hone/lap (hmmm...just what IS the difference? honing is a powered operation and lapping is a hand operation? or is honing for 'surfaces of revolution' [things you make on a lathe] and lapping is for planer surfaces.....I'll let Art write a treatise on that. ) Nothing fancy, I just use a fine diamond lap that you can find in any woodworking store or catalog. It's a strip of industrial diamond abrasive, about 1' x 2 1/2", glued to a plastic handle. they come in various grades, medium, fine, etc...., but I use the fine (red handle). I just give each surface that intersects with the cutting edge "a few licks" making sure to keep the lap in contact with the entire surface to avoid forming a radius at the cutting edge. They work fine dry, but I've found they seem to work even better with some form of "cutting fluid". I saw a British woodturner demonstrating their use for touching up woodturning tools, which are now predominantly HSS....that's where I initially started using them. He recommended using 'tongue oil' and then proceeded to lick that lap with his tongue to get a little moisture on it! I suspect any very thin liquid...water, kerosene, WD-40,.... would work fine. I'm guessing all you are doing is allowing the "chips" to float off, rather than load up the abrasive surface. The nice thing is it's quick, simple and inexpensive. he laps cost about $7.00 and if used appropriately, last a long time.I've had one for about 3 years and it still is effective. Try it, you'll like it. Mario ------- Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 16:42:15 -0600 From: jrw Subject: Re: Re: "Shaper" Tool Hold on eBay Mario: I agree about a fine finish on the tools. I have a bench grinder with a diamond face wheel for final finish on my lathe and shaper tools. I grind very lightly dry. The "tongue oil" is an amusing comment. Many of the tool vendors have a small diamond sharpening block on their counters for customers to touch up their pocket knives and a small bottle of water to squirt on the block. Joe Williams ------- Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 21:14:44 -0600 From: "Mario L Vitale" Subject: Re: Re: "Shaper" Tool Hold on eBay Joe: Yes, I got a chuckle out of that myself. Funny you should mention the bench grinder with diamond face wheel. When I was still at McDonnell, we had a pre-production assembly shop, and we decided to set up a small machine shop for quick turn around repair parts... when you assemble airplanes, you drill and ream lots of close tolerance (half-thou or better) holes, so you need lots of repair bushings!?!?! We "drafted" one of our better all around machinist and I asked him what kind of equipment he thought he needed, he very quickly answered " a Hardinge lathe, a #1 Moore Jig Bore, and a good bench grinder with a diamond face wheel". He didn't have to re-make very many bushings!!! Mario ------- Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 07:50:10 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: wetting agent for diamond lapping The Glendo people that my machine came from provide a magic substance for the wheel. It is yellow stuff in a little bottle, and I suspect that it is a wetting agent, eg a detergent. Anyway, you dilute this stuff down with lots of water, to the extent that I suspect pure water could hardly be much different. If I ever run out (Dad bought the machine in the 80's and there is still plenty) I will just use water with a little household detergent. Incidently the wheels seem to be holding up well, so although the initial cost is not low, I think it is a good long term buy. regards John ------- Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 03:22:27 -0000 From: "mike" Subject: G&E 16" shaper I recently purchased a 16" G&E shaper from a party in Memphis, Tenn. I had a neighbor who drives semi pick it up for me and he just arrived with it today. It seems in good shape and complete with the exception that the clapper block is missing. I was thinking of making one with my lathe. I don't have much experience with a shaper of this size and I was wondering if anyone could tell me how big to make the toolpost slot and what size cutters it would use, etc. I figured I would turn it out of a block of mild steel--does anyone see any problems with this?? Any comments would be appreciated. thanks, Mike ------- Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 21:31:46 -0600 From: "LEW BEST" Subject: RE: G&E 16" shaper Hi Mike: I just traded for a 16" G & E; will get it in a week or 2. It has the toolpost & a toolholder; as soon as I get it I'll post the dimensions if no one else has. Lew ------- Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 22:34:08 -0600 From: "Clint D" Subject: Re: G&E 16" shaper Mike: You might also join the gingery machines group. there are plans there building a gingery shaper, you can get some ideas there using your measurements. Most there cast the parts out of aluminum http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/gingery_machines Clint ------- Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 08:29:02 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: G&E 16" shaper-toolpost The toolpost and clapper should be made as two parts. This allows the toolpost to be angled relative to the clapper box which is sometimes necsessary The usual approach is that the clapper is a rectangular block to fit the box, with a taper hole across the top, and a hole in the face to take the toolpost. The toolpost has a flange on the back so the block hole is releived at the back to accomodate that. To give an idea of suitable sizes. my Alba 4S (18 inch shaper) has the following sizes for the post itself: Overall length 4.5 inches Diameter 1.25 Flange diameter 1.625 flange length .430 slot width .688 (11/16) slot length 2 The slot starts about 1.25 from the ends and the ends are rounded. The screw is 5/8 diameter. The end tapers down to about 1 inch over the last 7/8 inch, this is of course purely cosmetic. Since the round part of the slot is not completely inside the clapper, there is a round washer about quarter of an inch thick for the tool to bear on. This also helps avoid the tool marking the clapper. The fit in the clapper should be close but able to turn without too much effort. The clapper part is an ideal part for the shaper to make, if only you had one already! There was a clapper and toolpost about the right size for sale at one of the dealers here, probably still there if you wanted it, but the chances would be that the clapper would be the wrong size, and the postage might be a killer. regards John ------- Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 23:18:13 -0000 From: "mike" Subject: Re: G&E 16" shaper-toolpost thanks for the help John. I'll make mine the same as yours. I already made Gingery's little shaper so I could use that to machine the clapper block and cut the toolpost slot. There is one other problem I noticed, though, and that is the pin that the clapper block pivots on is tapered and I would need to find out what taper it is and buy a reamer for it or something--maybe someone knows what taper it is. thanks again mike ------- Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 06:10:04 -0000 From: "xtrucker_1999" Subject: Re: G&E 16" shaper-toolpost mike, i got the entire clapper assembly off of a 20" cincinatti at a junkyard and it was easy to adapt to my 16" G&E. ------- Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 07:44:18 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: G&E 16" shaper-toolpost It is probably easier to find out a taper that will fit the existing box, then ream both the parts together. The idea of the taper is that when it gets a little worn, you can tap the pin in a little to take it up. An oil hole on the clapper is a good idea. Not all are tapered, my Ammco one is not. But then, that is probably not the original either. regards John ------- Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 21:51:22 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: tooling suggestions for Atlas shaper In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "lkasdorf"wrote: > I just picked up an Atlas 7" shaper, and I need to work out what > tooling to get for it. > It came with a lathe tool holder, but this holds the bit at an angle > whereas it should be perpendicular to the work. Hi Ike--Buy a carbide type lathe tool holder that holds the tool bit parallel to the shank. The size you want is one that holds a 1/4 inch square tool bit, but you'll be using HSS instead of carbide. An Amstrong T-0-S with shank cross section of about 3/8 x 7/8 is the size that your're looking for. HSS is the proper tool bit for most of the slower speed capable shapers, not carbide. Whereas HSS can operate effectively from very slow speeds to up to where its starts overheating and loosing its hardness, carbide really only starts to cut well at the higher speeds. > I think some folks directly mount a cutter into the lantern. I could > do this- what size tool blank should I get (and where should I get it??) You can do this, although a carbide-style tool holder will work well. The size that you should use is the size of the slot in your tool post unless you employ packing to reduce the slot opening. You buy this stuff from tool supply houses. Use Google to find these guys: Wholesale Tool; Rutlands/Airgas; J&L; MSC; Travers; Victor Tool Exchange; others. Request their catalogs right off. > I was given a carbide tipped lathe cutter. I ground the shank down > so it would fit in the shaper. It sorta works, but the results are not > good. Even when i just use the corner of the bit and take tiny > strokes, it just doesn't do a good job. I suppose the angles on the > cutter are just inappropriate. It's not just the angles. (See my comments B4). Although not totally scientifically true, think of very sharp HSS tooling as "cutting" the metal off while carbide, at higher speeds, "pushes" the metal off. Carbide tools often are "un-sharpened" with a land or flat across what would be a very sharp edge on a HSS tool bit to preclude chipping the edge. If you contact Kennemetal or Sandvik ask for their lathe (very similar cutting action as shapers) tooling manuals (free)--there's tool info in these manuals that ain't nowhere else. > What is a cheap way to get started with tooling for a small shaper? Tooling is never cheap: machine tools are cheap, and then it costs a fortune in tooling and accessories to get them running properly. But, start by getting a straight "S" carbide tool holder and a 1/4 square HSS tool bit as I stated above...it won't get much cheaper than that. > I also need the 3/8" square drive crank handle. Know of a source > for these? Do you mean the "S7-100 Crank" for tightening the "S7-91 Vise"? After-market import CI crank handles are available from many of the B4 mentioned tool houses. Wholesale tool has one for $10 with a 1/2- inch square opening that is easily sleeved to 3/8-inch. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 00:04:12 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: tooling suggestions for Atlas shaper You can use the lathe type holders but need to reduce the rake as it tends to be excessive on the lathe type toolholders. They make for a lot of grinding when starting out with a new bit, something they were intended to reduce. Another approach is to use large chunks of toolsteel, just sharpened up and clamped in the toolpost, but these are expensive if you have to buy pieces big enough. You would probably want about 3/8 by half inch or even bigger for a seven inch shaper. I have a couple of chunks that came with the machines, but wouldn't want to replace them. You will also realise that there is no way that you can ever use the whole piece, eg after many sharpenings it will be too short to reach. Which brings us to the next suggestion, since most of it will never be used to cut, there is no reason why it should be toolsteel. Braze a small piece of High Speed Steel onto the end of a shank to make a tool as long as you need with only the end hard. You can braze the tip into a hole in the end to make a stronger job. This is also useful for special cutters like T slot cutters. Silver solder is ideal stuff for the brazing. You can also braze carbide tips onto a shank, and I have had good success with these. Although it is true that mostly our shapers don't run fast enough to justify carbide for extra productivity, it can be handy for castings with a tough skin like you sometimes get on iron. However, it is not renowned for liking intermittent cuts, which a shaper always is. Note that I am only talking about the "ordinary" old carbide, there are lots of other things now like ceramics which are probably not suited to shaper use. You would have to know what you were doing at least. There is a type of tool holder you can make from a steel bicycle crank. (Just the bit that goes from pedal to the crank axle.) You make a bolt to go through the eye where the pedal used to screw and cut a square hole just under the head of the bolt. That lets you bolt a piece of HSS at any needed angle...the other end is shortened back to a suitable length and goes in the tool post. The beauty of the shaper is that most of your work will be carried out with: A roughing out tool, shaped like a letter V as seen from the front, with just a small flat at the bottom of the V A left and a right knife tool for cutting down vertical faces and into corners. (Like up to a shoulder>) A slotting tool or two, like a lathe parting off tool. Not too narrow because they get fragile, and not too wide or the machine will complain by chattering. That makes four or five, and apart from making dovetails and T slots they will do just about anything you want. You can also make a finishing tool that will give a better finish, there is a description somewhere in the posts I think. So something like US$20 will pretty well set you up for life.... Where you can get this sort of stuff will depend where you are, in any city of reasonable size there should be someone stocking HSS, otherwise there are lots of places who will mailorder it to you. The cheating way of getting a 3/8 square drive is to braze a 3/8 inch drive socket onto a piece of flat steel bar, hex side down, drill a hole at the other end of the bar, and drill through a big wooden file handle. Use locknuts to bolt the wooden handle in place so it can turn freely. I did this on Sunday myself, only my socket had to be 3/4 inch drive since the shaper is a bit bigger. Since the socket is probably plated, you want to take the plating off before you try to braze, I used a belt sander. I dunno about anywhere else, but the local second hand dealer hates to let go of a handle on its own, since he keeps getting vices that don't have them. regards John ------- Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 20:37:20 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Logan Shaper Accessories (AKA: Thanx Scott!) Scott has uploaded a Logan shaper sales specification sheet that answers (I think it does) some questions that I have had as to the nature of the shaper tool holder and extension tool holder that Logan offered. The PIXs on the sales flyer of both the adjustable tool holder and the extension tool holder look to be spittin'images of the ones pictured in the contemporary Armstrong Bros. Tool Co. (Chicago) catalog of the time. There are some additional "keyway tool holders", not in the Armstrong catalog, that appear to probably be Logan originals. Both #80280, 7/16-inch OD keyway tool holder, and it's bigger brother #80281 5/8-inch OD keyway tool holder, appear to be adaptors for converting the adjustable tool holder #540 to have the capability to also cut internal keyways similar to the method that I also arrived at. (See my two shaper tool holder drawings in "files".) Armstrong used a different method with bushings to allow larger extension tool holders to be down-sized with smaller extension bars. This latter method was not possible with the Logan as (see specs in flyer) its tool slot dimension in the lantern tool post were only 7/16 W x 7/8 H and thus would only hold the smaller Armstrong tools: the #46 extension tool holder (max bar size 1/2" OD) and the #39 adjustable tool holder--both had 3/8 W x 7/8 H shank cross- sections. Thanx again, Scott. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 20:55:30 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Where to buy tooling for my 10" shaper: After the Wedding is... In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "extratec2001" wrote: > Can someone tell me where to buy tooling for my 10" shaper? I want to > be able to cut key ways in pulleys, splines on a shaft and to surface > a piece of steel or aluminum. I tried Ebay and Enco with no luck. A > web address, link or phone number would be helpful, along with a > part number(s) if you have them. Thanks, Regis ...after the wedding is over...and you arise and notice that your new spouse has false teeth.*** Regis--You, like I, Tom, Charles, and Mario, have wedded sisters...from the '40's and '50's. Lewis made raw shaper kits and semi-finished ones. The last Lewis ad I remember seeing was a 1/2-incher in a 1- inch column in a 1957 Mechanix Illustrated magazine. Both the magazine and Lewis Machine Tool Company of LA are long dead...and almost forgotten. When Lewis made kits, the only accessory that they made for the 10-inch shaper was their 7-inch swivel base vise which you (you lucky devil!!) have. They offered a dividing-centers kit for their horizontal mill that had a shipping weight of 11 lbs (no other dimensional data stated) and could be provided with one gear- like index plate of 48 teeth. The buyer/maker of a Lewis shaper was expected to find and provide, by himself, whatever other tooling he thought he needed, either by making his own or by buying, and perhaps modifying as necessary. We and you are now in that same situation, but 50 years later. No one makes shapers anymore, and their tooling and accessories, except for a very few companies in India, PRC, and perhaps (still) Viet Nam. Shapers, in the USA, started to die out in the '60's, at least for American manufacturers who wished to continue in business. Depending on the size slot in your lantern tool post, either an Amstrong #39 (or Atlas) or the larger #40 adjustable tool holder is needed for most external shaping; these can be found in the used tool/tooling market, but expect to pay REAL MONEY for one. Carbide tool holders, which will hold a HSS tool bit parallel to the shank when gripped in the toolpost, are also available on the used tool market; depending on your tool post slot dimensions, look for a T-0-S or a T-1-S, although the "R" (right) and the "L" left shapes, in the same shank sizes, are useable as well. Import carbide tool holders are relatively inexpensive and readily available from most tool houses. Shaper extension tool holders, for internal cutting such as slots, can also sometimes be found on the used tool market at REAL MONEY prices. However, making a set of toolholders, for one with only moderate skills, should not be difficult--see my 2 dimensioned drawings at "files" here--with much of the work being done on your shaper to include revolving the holder via it's "hole", appropriately held in a jig affixed to your shaper table, to get the "rounded" end the way that Nasmyth would have most certainly done it. Other stuff, such as the dividing centers, could also be home-brewed using gears (temporarily, perhaps, "stolen" from your lathe) as index plates. These centers don't have to be beautiful--welding and brazing are OK--they just have to work. Consider the possibility of starting with a pair of el cheapo and small angle plates. There are also numerous domestic and import dividing/indexing heads. Smaller ones of this genre can be found at both http://www.lathemaster.com and http://littlemachineshop.com. Bigger ones are available from Victor, J&L, Travis, Wholesale Tool, Rutlands/Airgas, ENCO, MSC, and numerous others. Your vise (you lucky devil...you!!) is the primary parts holder for use on your Lewis-10. I suggest that before you get too fancy as in cutting splines, etc., that you and your vise become intimate friends, and daily partners. (Gosh, I wish I had your vise...and not the weirdo, funny looking thing that I have adapted for use until I can find the "Real Thing".) As I have stated before, expect the tooling and accessories, especially if they are original items, to cost REAL MONEY and often much in excess of the price paid for the shaper itself. Enjoy the quest for these tools and accessories...make the journey, itself, fun! Art (Houston) ------- Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 21:29:48 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Where to buy tooling for my 10" shaper: After the Wedding is... Art, you ought to copy that last message into "my" shaping for beginners file area. I must admit that the concept of being able to buy ready made tools for a shaper seems rather a novel one to me, I suppose once upon a time you could. Anyway this is another chance to plug my favourite cheap idea of brazing odd lengths of tool steel onto a suitable shank, eg a piece of mild steel bar. A box of quarter or 5/16 square HSS tool blanks should not cost a fortune, even if you buy the really good stuff. Some of these ideas were discussed within the last couple of weeks, so it would be worth going back through the posts. Surely someone could use their vice as a pattern to make you up a set of castings...seems a legitimate approach for something that was supplied as a kit in the first place. You need to build up the areas that will be machined of course, with something temporarily stuck on, like heavy card. I'm busy making a pattern for the Ammco vice base, might make up the patterns for the between centres attachment too while I am about it. regards John ------- Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 14:19:12 EDT From: jmartin957x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: WANTED: Plans to make a boring bar holder In a message dated 4/23/03, extratec2001x~xxyahoo.com writes: << I am looking for plans to make a boring bar for my 10" shaper. Anyone got one that I can take a look at? I know they should be simple to make without plans, but why re-invent the wheel? Regis >> I saw one someplace that did not use the Armstrong type shank - the boring bar was either integral with the toolpost or was held directly by the toolpost. The post, rather than relying on the clamping pressure from the toolholder to hold it to the clapper, was threaded for a large nut. Looked like a pretty neat idea to me, as it would be much more rigid. On the negative side, the bar would be fixed length and wouldn't have the clearance adjustability of the Armstrong type holder. John Martin ------- Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 19:33:37 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: WANTED: Plans to make a boring bar holder--HUH??? Regis--What do you mean? Do you really mean "How do I make an extension slotter tool holder for my shaper?" If so, see my set of plans at "files". Also look at Scott Logan's recently posted Logan-8 shaper sales brochure to "see" the slotter adaptors for use with the shank of a "normal" Armstrong type adjustable tool holder. Alternatively, for a small Type-46 slotter extension type holder, just make an adjustable type shank, without the castellations perhaps, with a set screw, thru the side, fixing a sized to fit off- the-shelf (and perhaps shortened) HSS-tooled boring bar. I fail to see the problem...if there is one. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 18:40:50 -0500 From: jrw Subject: Re: Re: WANTED: Plans to make a boring bar holder--HUH??? Art: I think the writer is all screwed up with his wording as I think he wants to make a holder for a boring bar using his shaper. JRW ------- Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 01:57:04 -0000 From: "extratec2001" Subject: Re: WANTED: Plans to make a boring bar holder--HUH??? Yes - JRW is sort of correct. I just want to use my shaper to make key ways in pulleys. I have a slotting bar, but no holder. But no problem, I justed picked up an Armstrong no.48 tool holder that I think will work. I paid $25 for it. Is that a fair price? Regis ------- Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 02:59:34 +0000 From: mariol.vitalex~xxatt.net Subject: Re: Re: WANTED: Plans to make a boring bar holder--HUH??? Regis, I know this might sound lik a smart aleck answer, but it is not meant to be. If you were willing to pay $25 for it and it does what you expected it to do, it was a fair price. The reason I responded was to make the point that so many folks ask what is a fair price, or what is the best ---, We really need to remember that for most of us, this is a hobby, and what is the best 'whatever' depends a whole lot on what it is you as an individual wants to do with it and what your skill level is. And if a "fair price" is more than you can afford to spend on a hobby, then it is irrelevant. Mind you, I'm not being critical, I just think it's a shame when I see folks wait around for "the best 'whatver', or the "cheapest" price...and deprive themselves of the joy of experimenting and "learning by doing". My recommendation is, by golly, if you are interested enough in something to try it, go out and find something inexpensive (you have no qualms about spending that amount of money for it) that you think will do what you want it to do, and try it. What ever the outcome, you will have learned something and the lesson will have been inexpensive. If it does not do what you expected it to do, and you are still interested in doing it, you will now be much better able to make a sensible purchase the next time around. I apologize for the preaching, but I'd much rather see folks making things than wishing they were making things. as they say, life's too short! Keep asking questions, Mario ------- Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 03:15:26 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: WANTED: Plans to make a keyway cutter Have to say the way I did an internal keyway was a lot cheaper. I used a piece of gauge plate, a piece of flat steel bar, and a piece of round steel stock. It is described in the files section in the basic shaper operations area. It does take a bit longer to set up, but helps ensure alignment of the resulting keyway. But then I am known to be mean, my idea of expensive tooling is anything that costs more than a stick of quarter inch square HSS. regards John ------- Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 16:40:12 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Tool Bit Sizes For Shaper Tool Holders FYI: The HSS steel tool bits used in Armstrong size shaper tool holders are NOT square, except for the smallest No. 39 size. All of the rest require RECTANGULAR bits. Square bits can be sometimes utilized if an appropriate flat shim is used between the bit and the top head of the securing slotted tool bolt. Do not machine this head to try to "fix" it so that it will hold square bits: it was designed (except for the 39) to hold rectangular ones. The proper size HSS tool bits can be difficult to locate in a carbide world, but Production Tool Supply (800-366-3600, http://www.pts-tools.com ) has the correct sizes listed on page L-468 of their CY2003 catalog. They have them in M2 HSS as well as 5% Cobalt and Super Cobalt at higher prices. A list of tool holders, their appropriate tool bit size, PTS' stock number, and current price is listed below: No. 39--1/4 square; No. 40--1/4x3/8--FC53-040604 x~xx $3.95; No. 401-- 5/16x7/16--FC53-050703 x~xx $4.50; No. 41--3/8x1/2--FC53-060804 x~xx $5.30; No. 42--1/2X3/4--FC53-081204 x~xx $9.90; No. 43--5/8x7/8--FC53-101406 x~xx $20.50; No. 44--3/4x1--FC53-121607 x~xx $24.25; No. 45--7/8x1-1/8--Not Stocked. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 19:30:19 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Indexable Inserts: HSS & Carbide Check out http://www.littlemachineshop.com/info/inserts.php . Listed are 1/4 inch and 3/8 inch shank lathe turning tool holders with triangular inserts available in both carbide (for those with high speed--300fpm--capable shapers such as Ray E's Rockford Hydraulic) and in HSS (for the majority of us). Perhaps a bit pricey for the Warner HSS (USA) inserts, but may be worth while & fun experimenting with. The 1/4 inch shank indexable tool will fit the #39 size adjustable (Armstrong type) shaper tool holder and the #40 size with a shim. The 3/8 inch shank tool will fit a #41 tool also with a shim; the #41 is the one normally used with the 24-inch Rockford Hydraulic while the 1/4 inch shank tool is the one normally used with 7-inch & 8-inch shapers and with some of the 10-inch shapers (like my Lewis) equipped with a smaller, non-OEM, tool post. For those interested in purusing extensive shaper tool cutting data, go to your local college engineering library and look for the "Machining Data Handbook" in the "Reserve" section. Here in Houston, I have used copies of the 3rd Edition (c. 1990's) at both the North Harris County Community College Library and at Anderson Library, on the main campus of the University of Houston. At home I have my own personal copy of the 2d Edition (c. 1970's) which doesn't have as an extensive of a listing as does the 3rd Edition (more than 20 pages). Shaper cutting data is listed under the heading of "Planing" and has entries for both HSS AND carbide tools. (The section on "Turning" has an additional category for "Cast Alloy" tooling = Tantung, Crobalt, Rexalloy, Stellite-J, Armaloy, and other non-steel high speed Cobalt-Chrome-Tungsten alloys.) Enjoy! Art (Houston) ------- Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 15:42:46 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: UPDATE: Re: Tool Bit Sizes For Shaper Tool Holders In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, n8as1x~xxa... wrote: >> art....armstrong gooseneck tools ,think S-51 ,S-52 are listed as threading tool bit holders ,& are rotational....they knock off for MUCH less than the rigid tool hldr....why arent these as functional ,or better?..( have a few ,but dont have the larger shapers up & running to try out).....my gooseneck lathe cutoff tools, u wud have to pry from my cold dead fingers ....can cut off at 50% more speed w/out chatter << Doc--It's like anything else--if you can get tags for it, and get a license to drive it, you can roll it on the highways. In Nappannee (sp?), Indiana, they still drive horse drawn buggies. The slang term for them locally (amongst the non Amish) is: "Splat! Mobile". The gooseneck tools that you describe were designed for continuous lathe turning of threads--they WERE NOT designed for the much heavier and interrupted cuts of shaping. No where, in any of Armstrong catalogs (and I have a number of them), does Armstrong even hint at the possibility of their use as shaper tools. They do recommend, however, the use of their carbide tool holders, which also hold the tool bit perpendicular to the axis of the ram stroke, as alternatives. Whereas used adjustable shaper tool holders are somewhat pricey, when found, suitable import carbide tool holders can be readily located for about 15 bucks each. Like the adjustable shaper tool holders they are extremely rigid and will function well in heavy interrupted shaping type cutting operations. But, if one only has a buggy...and the Interstate beckons...go for it. There is an old grade school jingle, one of the few decent ones that I still remember, that may be appropo: A peanut stood on the railroad track, His heart was all a-flutter. Nine-fifteen came 'round the bend, "Toot! Toot!"...peanut butter. Art (Houston North 'n gettin' ready for brunch: maybe a peanut butter sandwich on a fennel-seeded potato-flour Italian bagel...with cream cheese and pickled garlic slices....before watchin' my alma mater ND get mauled again??? Decisions, decisions.) ------- Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 15:06:36 EDT From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: UPDATE: Re: Tool Bit Sizes For Shaper Tool Holders Art .....that jingle really dates us ....but i remember the 3rd line as "along came a choo choo train " ..then thepeanut butter ....heard my wife reciting it last week to my least grandchild age 6 ...reckon we are getting close to the second childhood yes ..i picked up a couple USA carbide holders on e bay that no one else wanted much these thrdng tool holders are not near as solid ...may work well for a wide finishing cut w/ shaper.........have used them to play w/ rough hogged straight in threading cuts & then clean up w/VERY lite cuts ... much quicker i have a 3/6 bit shop built gooseneck toolhldr that can put a 60deg point on a bar (full 3/8 flat ) at near normal rpm...deflects down 1/16 in ,but NO chatter...think goosenecks & elevating cross slides (1895 reed) may be worthy of a resurgence or t least a reevaluation ... best wishes docn8as ------- Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 22:48:13 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: got rockford 16" now need big gooseneck I've tried carbide tools in the shapers, with great success. The bits I used were second hand plain triangular pieces with no holes or built in rake/chip deflectors. I silver solder them to a mild steel shank and sharpen them with a diamond wheel. Of course, I have no idea what type of inserts these are, so YMMV. Conventional wisdom used to be that carbide does not like interrupted cuts due to the shock loading... all I can say is that these seem to hold up fine. Possibly modern carbides are less brittle than the old ones. The other objection I hear from time to time is that both the shapers and the lathes that I am using these on don't actually go fast enough to get the improved productivity that carbide can give. That is possibly true, but the other advantages still hold...the edge of the tool lasts longer and the finish is improved. The latter especially applies when they have been sharpened with the diamond wheel, which leaves a beautiful finish on the carbide. I suspect that carbide might be best with a really rigid toolholder rather than a gooseneck. But don't let that stop you experimenting, we might all learn something regards John ------- Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 20:03:41 -0000 From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: Re: Shaper Tool Post: Stupid Question > What is the function of the ring that fits under the tool holder? Unlike a lathe, the lantern tool post on a shaper is designed to directly hold the tool or the tool holder at 90 degrees to the work without a rocker as on a lathe. The sides of the clapper box and the front of the clapper are usually machined flush. A washer, a ring, or a serrated plate move the clamping surface in front of the clapper box's sides. Smaller shapers commonly use a washer like ring as the clamping surface as one would use under a bolt head. For one, it precludes the clapper itself from being marred when a tool or holder is clamped against it and a washer, a ring, or a plate is cheaply replaceable. Atlas refers to the S7-65 simply as a "Washer"; my Lewis has a similar washer. Some of the larger shapers use a square serrated plate that is machine-screwed to the front of the clapper as a clamping surface. One book refers to the serrations: "The serrations on the plate...prevent the tool from slipping during the cutting process." The Armstrong style adjustable tool holder can be clamped "backwards" in the tool post...with the tool bit reversed also...which will reduce any tendancy for the tool to "dig-in" when held "normally" in the outboard position. An "I"-block can also be used in between the tool holder and the tool post screw to preclude marring of the top of the tool holder shank. This is a piece of thin flat plate whose column width matches the width of the tool post slot and whose head and foot keeps it from falling out when the tool holder is adjusted or removed. Or, as the book states: "A block is placed ahead of the tool-post screw to prevent indentations which are likely to occur on the tool holder when pressure from the tool-post screw is applied in the same place repeatedly. Art ------- Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 23:47:05 -0000 From: "Don Kinzer" Subject: Re: Tool Holder question > What is a good steel to fabricate a tool holder out of? > I've had good luck with the type that has iron in it. ;) Seriously, though, I don't think that it matters that much. I've used some hot rolled and cold rolled stock that I had in the scrap bin with good results. ------- Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 00:51:09 -0000 From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: Speeds, Feeds, and DOCs wuz Re: Progress Update - 7" Ammco refurb "Frank Hasieber" wrote: > HI, interesting, in the latest Model Engineers Workshop, Harold Hall > does a project on the Adept hand powered shaper all with carbide > tooling, from the pics with great success!! Frank >> Your AMMCO shaper is a HSS tool material type shaper. It was not >> designed to cut at the speeds required by carbide tooling. Each >> work material has different cutting speeds for the type tool >> material used. Frank--It doesn't mean that carbide won't work at low speeds, but industrially, if carbide tooling is used, it is normally because the user wants the higher cutting speeds that carbide allows. "Normal" industrial carbide tooling does not have a real sharp edge as it comes from the factory. Being brittle, a "chamfer" is honed on the edge to reduce the chance of chipping and a "land" for smoothing the metal cut. At the higher carbide cutting speeds the metal really isn't "cut" like with a sharp knife, but is pushed off in plastic like condition. (You have to see the Sandvik video to appreciate that this really happens.) Interrupted cutting, as a shaper does at the beginning of each cutting stroke (lifter needed for retract), also has a tendency to chip the carbide tool's cutting edge. This chamfered edge does NOT normally give a smooth cut at slower speeds like HSS will. If you look in either Sandvik's or Kennametal's tool catalogs (they'll send you them for free) you'll see graphical cutting data-- usually a rectangular box, formed of a feeds axis and a speeds axis, which is the recommended cutting zone for that particular insert: the feeds and speeds recommended. The boxes are always at speeds much beyond where HSS can go; none of the speeds are in the slower zone that HSS works well in: from zero up to just before red-hot. If carbide tooling is honed to a sharp edge by the user, and moderate speeds are used (hand cranking an Adept for instance), it should perform as well as HSS does. Why is he using carbide? Carbide costs more. Sharpening carbide is really only done well with fine diamond grit wheels which are not very cheap. Why isn't he using HSS...on his old and slow "arm strong" Adept? I know of retired master machinist who used to give demonstrations on tapping whenever young cadets, soon-to-be officers, were escorted through the arsenal where he worked. He used to keep a plastic squirt bottle at hand for those times filled with mayonnaise: he used it to lubricate the tap as he demonstrated how-to-tap on a drill press. Worked well...and warped their brains too. Maybe butter would work well with carbide...or fresh mutton fat. Art (Houston) ------- NOTE TO FILE: I got an off-group message from Harold Hall in late Oct 2004 explaining why he used carbide tooling on the Adept for this particular job. His explanation follows. [And I would do exactly the same with this material. Thank you for your fine article in MEW.] ------- Date: 31 October 2004 Subject: Shaping One of your correspondants questions why I used carbide tooling in my Model Engineers' Workshop shaper article using a hand operated Adept and suggests that HSS tooling would be the tooling to use. The project used cast iron castings for its main materials and there is no way that I would risk my HSS tools on this material. Even one hard spot encountered would result in a spoilt tool, Carbide is therefore all but essential for roughing cuts on cast iron. After the skin has been removed then, as I think I said in the article, HSS would work well. Harold Hall ------- Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 06:28:39 -0000 From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: Speeds, Feeds, and DOCs wuz Re: Progress Update - 7" Ammco refurb "J. R. Williams" wrote: > Art; > Max depth of cut 0.500??? Sounds a little heavy for the small shapers. Joe-- A DOC of 0.500 IS too heavy for small shapers at those feeds and speeds. That's tabular data direct from the "Machining Data Handbook" for shapers & planers of ALL sizes. Feed and speed are starting data and the DOC is read as a max. That's why I also discussed metal removal rates and that you can't cut more metal--in cubic inches--than the horspower that you have avalable will allow you too. If you work backwards with the horsepower available at the cutting tool, with the feed, and with the speed, you will arrive at the allowable DOC (depth of cut) for the shaper being used. For a small 1/4 hp shaper that depth of cut will be quite small. Does that make sense? Maybe the table of cutting data should have had another column listing allowable DOC in terms of the horsepower available at the cutting tool. There are such nomographs (alignment charts) in the back of the "Machining Data Handbook" for turning, milling, and drilling operations, but none for shaping/planing. Maybe I'll make one up--or better yet, devise a template for the Alias shareware spreadsheet program downloadable on-line--gotta find an empty back- burner to put it on with all of the other deferred projects. Anyone want to do it? The computer program for the "Machining Data Handbook" automatically, after adjusting the other parameters, will work backwards and provide the proper depth of cut after setting the horsepower available and the machine efficiency. Unfortunately, it doesn't have any shaper/planer specific data (industry doesn't use shapers or planers in the computer age), but data computed for single point tooled lathes, for a wide assortment of HSS, carbide and more exotic cutting tools, when used to turn a wide assortment of various materials and hardnesses, comes fairly close to what shaper data should be...allowing, of course, for the 2/3-1/3 cutting times. (I thought I demonstrated that program to you?) Art ------- Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 22:16:03 -0000 From: "joe_sozanski" Subject: Re: shaper tool design John, I took a piece of 1"x1 1/4" solid stock and whittled it down and just clipped the corners off at 45 deg. A learning project experimenting with tools and learning about the shaper. I did cut in the slots for tool bit but now I don't think they'd really be necessary on a small shaper for hobby use. I pick thru the scrap hoppers when I can. I'll see if I can get a couple pics of it and post if that will help. Joe ------- Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:55:10 -0000 From: "joe_sozanski" Subject: Re: shaper tool design "joe_sozanski" wrote: > > John, I just uploaded 3 pics of my toolholder in metal shapers pix > > under Joe's toolholder. I placed a 6" scale on them for reference. > > Hope this helps some. Joe "Peter Verbree"wrote: > Joe, I did exactly the same thing several years ago when I had my Atlas > shaper. I thought it worked very well. I even made the cutouts for > the toolbit the same way. I believe it is a great shaper beginner > project. You should write it up with some basic drawings and either > send it to HSM or post it on the web. Nice work!! Peter, well I don't have a scanner or any type of drawing program. It's so simple I just whittled it out on the shaper as I went along. You're right it is a pretty good beginner's project. You get to try out quite a few basic things. I also made some tool blocks out of 2" square I salvaged. I just notched them for the tool holders, boring bars etc. I got tired of the lantern tool post on my Atlas lathe sagging at inconvenient times like when a thread is almost finished. May not be as nice as a fancy quick change one but the tools are all set to center height so just switch them or turn them around. That was good practice too squaring them all up and cutting the grooves in. The blocks look like hot rolled, all scaley. I found it came out the best cleaning them up all around then going back with a finish tool. The last 2 I did I got them parallel with in .001-.0015! Learned quite a bit on these 2 jobs. I machine prety big stuff at work and it's usually bolted bown with 7/8 or 3/4 bolts. I run a G&L HSP15 horizontal cnc and occasionally old manual Bullards 46" and 54". Joe ------- Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 18:00:42 +0100 From: Clive Foster Subject: Cutting Curves on A Shaper Folks: The latest issue of the UK magazine Model Engineer has a article written by John Olsen on making a device to cut curved surfaces on a shaper. Author used it to do the curved expansion links on a compound twin launch engine model. Seems to have worked quite well. Idea is a derivation of a special vice used to do similar work on a planer. This vice is illustrated as Figure 1628 in the book Modern machine Shop Practice by Joshua Rose which can be downloaded in digital (PDF) form from Michigan State University at http://digital.lib.msu.edu/collections/index.cfm?TitleID=274 and http://digital.lib.msu.edu/collections/index.cfm?TitleID=367 for volumes 1 and 2 respectively. I've downloaded it myself but have not yet got to Figure 1628. Besides having a heck of a lot of machining info the book is a monument to the engraver's art. The basic principle is pretty straightforward but there is perhaps more than is obvious in getting things to go properly. Much better to follow anothers experience than do the development work all yourself. Clive ------- Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 14:20:28 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jim Ash Subject: Shaper diagnostics - round two I ran another test cut on my Atlas 7B Saturday. This time, I ground a fresh tool with a fairly broad radius for a better finish. Two things are happening which I question. The first is the 'wave' like I described last week. The machine is ratcheting on the cut, and advancing on the retraction, so the wave is not from the advancing of the work. I thought I had it right the first time, but I wasn't sure, so I checked this time. If I cycle the machine manually, I see a pause in the stroke when the ram lever gets just a bit past center. If I look inside when this happens, it looks like the stroke adjustment screw (that's part of all that stuff spinning around inside the bull gear) is under tension at the beginning of the stroke and compression at the end of the stroke. The wave seems to happen at the place in the stroke after this force has reversed and enough force is generated to make the screw flop from one side of its lash to the other. I'm guessing the spring in the machine causes it to 'bounce' when the stroke is not smooth at this point. These forces apply to any machine with this geometry, so I guess I don't know why you don't see this wave from any machine instead of just mine. Am I tightening up on the stroke length lock wheel the wrong way? Is there a right way? Sometimes I see dots, like light punch marks, appear on the surface just cut. I was cutting with a stroke of about 4 1/2". At one speed, the dots appear in a band maybe 1/2" in width. I can hear the clapper clapping twice on each stroke, so I'm guessing the clapper is coming down on the work during the return stroke. Should there be a piece of felt or something to absorb the energy from the clap, so the clapper won't do a second clap? Halfway through the piece, I moved the belt to a slower speed, and the descrete band of dots went away, but the dots were more randomly all over the piece, like the clapper was down and bouncing the tool along the work on the return stroke. Is my clapper too loose? Jim Ash ------- Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 16:55:33 -0500 From: mikejanfx~xxjuno.com Subject: Re: Shaper diagnostics - round two Jim: Are you actually using a shaper tool holder or a lathe tool holder? Lathe holders may fit your Atlas tool post, but they are not interchangeable . . . especially if you are using a lathe HSS tool holder. Just checking all the variables here. Mike in Iowa. ------- Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 03:51:25 -0000 From: "William" Subject: Re: Shaper diagnostics - round two mikejanf... wrote: ...Are you actually using a shaper tool holder or a lathe tool holder? Lathe holders may fit your Atlas tool post, but they are not interchangeable ... __Please correct me here: My understanding is that a shaper tool holder is identical to a lathe tool holder without the upward kick. If this is indeed the case, cannot a shaper tool insert be ground with the extra 15 deg compensated? __My Atlas came with a "Craftsman" tool holder with no angle. I have considered using lathe tool holders that have been straightened so I can get left and right tooling. I think this is what was done with the Craftsman, as it has been welded in the area where the kick would be. Bill Hudson ------- Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 22:35:07 -0000 From: "Ken R" Subject: Re: Shaper diagnostics - round two Jim: My .02. It sounds to me like you may have the stroke adjustments just a hair off. A bit tight. I might reset it again. Also allow more space at the ram retraction end to allow the clapper to settle in. FELT in the clapper!! Blasphemy!!!!! Really I think the clapper is ok, seems to be a timing issue. Ken ------- Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 23:19:19 -0500 From: mikejanfx~xxjuno.com Subject: Re: Re: Shaper diagnostics - round two Jim and Bill, > __Please correct me here: My understanding is that a shaper tool > holder is identical to a lathe tool holder without the upward kick. > If this is indeed the case, cannot a shaper tool insert be ground with > the extra 15 deg compensated? If the cutting bit is held parallel to the shank you have a lathe carbide tool bit holder . . . and yes you can sneak by . . . sort of. If your bit is held at the 15 degree angle to the shank, you are really skating on thin ice. Any tool holder that places the bit in front of the pivot of the clapper will always have the tendancy to dig into the work. Even traditional shaper tool holders will do this if the tightening nut of the holder is on the back side of the stroke. I learned years ago to flip my shaper tool holder around where the cutting bit is trailing. It gets the bit almost even with the pivot of the clapper. Then if you hit a hard spot, the cutting bit doesn't dig in, it actually pivots away from the piece allowing you to continue cutting. You'll cut the hard spot on your next pass. If all else fails Art Volz shaper holder is a terrific idea (I have one). Cheap to make and work slicker than snot on a door knob! Look it up in the shaper group files or at the Lewis machine tool group. Try it, you'll like it. Ken writes: >>My .02. It sounds to me like you may have the stroke adjustments just a hair off. A bit tight. I might reset it again. Also allow more space at the ram retraction end to allow the clapper to settle in.<< Ken is right on target. General rule of thumb is to make your stroke 3/4" longer than the work. 1/4" beyond the work plus 1/2" in front of the work for a total of 3/4". This gives the clapper a chance to snap down. Logan went the extra step by adding a spring to the top of the clapper off to the side. It made for a positive snap down of the clapper everytime. I've got pictures of mine and the components that make it up if you're interested. Contact me directly though. Mike in Iowa ------- Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 07:55:09 -0500 From: mikejanfx~xxjuno.com Subject: Re: Shaper diagnostics - round two 09 Aug 2005 Jim Ash writes: >>This is the point where I'm ignorant about the specifics of shapers. << Jim: this is where a good book on shapers or reading some of the files we have in the shaper group about operating a shaper might really help. I jokingly say that running shapers is more "voodo" than science ... they are an odd, very fun tool! >> The clapper had a lantern toolpost on it when I got it, which doesn't necessarily mean it's right. It sure looks like the ones I've used on a bunch of lathes, unless there are subtle differences I'm not aware of. I don't have any Armstrong-type holders (at least yet) for this machine. << Ah, a little more info helps. We may have been talking about two different things. You were talking about the lantern tool post (which is very similar to a lathe except for the rocker and rocker ring.) I was talking about the actual tool bit holders. Holding a larger toolbit in the lantern tool holder is totally acceptable. There are rectangular tool bits for this purpose as well. Being rectangular they have more strength on the cutting stroke. However, for small 6-8" shapers, the largest square tool bit you can put in the lantern usually works fine. >> What's the significance to the type of tool holder with respect to machine operation? Obviously there are some inherent angles how the tool is held in the holder and the holder in the lantern, but I think I've got that covered. Does the added mass of a tool holder signficantly effect the clapping action of the machine? The actual cuts I'm getting look really good. My chips are smooth and bright, so there's no problem on the cutting stroke (except for the wave problem). My problem with the 'punch' marks seems to be with the tool contacting the work on the return stroke. << A shaper tool holder allows various angles and positions to be cut more easily than a clamped tool bit. You can even cut on the underside of the work if you have the clearance and can't flip the piece. (I've never had to do this however.) Cutting a vertical edge, dovetails, t-slots, splines ... they can all be done on a shaper with the proper holder and tool bit. Mike in Iowa ------- Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 20:51:09 -0700 (PDT) From: James Sterner Subject: Similar Holder I remembered after I sent this out, that for a few years I've had a holder that's very similar to yours. It took a while to find it again, but it's an Armstrong Holder # S-51 and it has a goose neck with an adjustable piece that holds a 1/4" bit and it has a pointed threaded rod that lands in any of three dimples in the adjustable bit holder, to vary the angle of the bit and to take up some tension on it too. Would anyone know if this was designed to be used for a Shaper? The hole is a broached square in the bit holding part of the holder. With this one there would be no way to add a long extension like Art's design. Thanks Again Jim Sterner ------- Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 06:05:46 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Similar Holder Jim--The gooseneck holder that you describe was not designed for shapers or planers: it was designed for threading on lathes. While Armstrong still makes some of their toolholder, they do not make the gooseneck style anymore (or shaper/planer toolholders either). Most of the oldtimers who used to swear about how good the goosenecks were...aren't swearing about anything anymore...except, maybe, that where they ended up is extremely hot. :-) Art ------- Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 15:32:16 EDT From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Similar Holder w/ correct amt. of flex (more than on S51) they will allow a wider cut & a higher speed w/out chattering ...i can actually point up a center w/ 3/8 flat bit w/ a shop made gooseneck w/out back gear...makes using form tools a LITTLE more reasonable on light machines...watching how much it flexes makes one wonder abt dimension of finished product...( neat pics of ur slotter ,tnx) best wishes docn8as ------- Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 18:28:22 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Shape-Rite "B" my new project In Metal_Shapers, viajoaquinx~xxa... wrote: >I just took a peek at the Shape-Rite manual on Don's site. I was >surprised to see a lathe tool holder depicted in the drawing on page 6! Roy-- What's the surprise? The AMMCO manual shows the same. The normal HSS lathe tool holders are not adjustable and they hold the HSS tool bit at an angle which, if used on a shaper, must be compensated for. A lathe tool holder for tungsten tool bits, however, holds the tool bit at 90 degrees to the work just like a shaper tool holder does. Armstrong, in their catalogs, have long stated that these tungsten tool bit holders are useable on shapers...they're just not adjustable. Art ------- Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 15:00:39 -0500 From: "S or J" Subject: Re: Shaper Toolholder for 7" AMMCO Ken wrote: >I should have also titled this WTB, does anyone have an extra >toolholder that would fit a 7" AMMCO that you would be >willing to sell? Hi Ken: While you can and likely will find a dedicated shaper toolholder, or make one yourself, the interim solution [and perhaps the only solution you will need for a fair while] could be: (1) hold a tool bit in the lantern with packing as needed; or (2) get an Armstrong-type straight carbide bit holder for a lathe. [NOTE TO FILE: That does not mean you have to use lathe carbide tipped bits in the carbide bit holder! While you can do so, it is generally found that these small shapers work much better with sharp tool-steel cutters. The advantage of the carbide bit holders is they are designed more like a genuine shaper bit holder -- they do not have the large built-in rake (bend upwards) of a standard lathe tool holder.] You can read all about these and other alternatives in the archives here, or in the file "Shaper Bits and Toolholders" on my site in the Metal Shaper Files section. A simple problem, and simple, inexpensive solutions. If you have any questions after that, the good folks in this group will likely advise further. Steve -- in Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ ------- Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 21:32:23 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Shaper Toolholder for 7" AMMCO Kenneth-- On EBay, where most of us win ours, a Armstrong/Ace or Atlas adjustable shaper tool holder, to fit the lantern tool post slot of the small 7- inch shapers, sell regularly for $75 to $150. That is today's market price range. American #5's, a copy of which I got much cheaper from Dave Sobel's father's collection, cost anywhere from $25 and up. On the other hand, with a little bit of effort you can make your own-- if you have the skill and desire, and are willing to expend some effort. Use my plans, that have been posted in our files (Links>!Archive....>Files>Metal_Shapers>holder1.jpg) almost since the day that this group was formed. Again, it takes a bit of skill, desire, and effort to research our files...and find my plans. To make it easy for you this time just click onto this URL: http://www.lathe.com/YahooGroups/Files/Metal_Shapers/holder1.jpg . I won't even charge you for using my plans--that I drew--at least not this time. :-) Here's your chance to make that "well done homemade rig"...for next to nothing. Art (I really like eBay! I win a lot of good stuff and on the cheap, but I've learned how to play the game.) ------- Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 00:53:49 -0000 From: "Ken R" Subject: Re: Shaper Toolholder for 7" AMMCO Ken wrote: Thanks Steve.....I'm looking for an Armstrong #41. Arthur (Houston) wrote: >Ken--Do you have an unusually large lantern tool post on your AMMCO-7? The normal size Armstrong adjustable shaper tool holder for an AMMCO, a South Bend, or an Atlas seven inch shaper, is the Armstrong #39 which has a shank that is 3/8 x 7/8 x 5-1/2 inches and accepts 1/4-inch square HSS tool bits. The Armstrong #41, on the other hand, is a much larger tool holder with a shank of 3/4 x 1-1/2 x 10 inches and accepts 3/8 x 1/2 inch rectangular tool bits. I suspect that, unless you have a much larger non-OEM replacement lantern tool post on your AMMCO-7 with a slot large enuf to accommodate a #41 tool holder, that, once you do acquire an Armstrong #41, you will either have to machine its shank smaller to fit...or make a much larger tool post to hold it. < >The Armstrong #41 is not just the next size, it is several sizes removed from the smallest size, the #39. The sizes from #39 thru #41 inclusive are: 39, 40, 401, & 41. Pages from the old Armstrong catalog depicting and describing their once made (long ago) shaper tool holders can be found in our archived files that can be accessed via "Links" here. < ------- Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 21:59:04 -0600 From: "Mario L Vitale" Subject: Re: Re: Shaper Toolholder for 7" AMMCO > I have been using Horror Freight 1/4" carbide tipped cutters to good > effect so far. Only 'cause my tool grinding skills are yet not up to > par {truth be known, they suck} and I also have a grinder that I can > stop the wire wheel with a gloved hand. Trying to do my best, hence > the frustration. Ken, I can sympathize with your dilemma ..."making do" can make for a lot of frustration. But remember, a lot of old machinists did some pretty damned impressive work with a lot less than we have today. Remember, patience is a virtue (in spite of being told that when I was around five years old, it took me another 50 or so years to really learn it). That 'wimpey" grinder may be a blessing in disguise. Take your time ...don't try to take off too much material at one time ...heat is the enemy! If you haven't seen this already, here is a link to a good 'tutorial' on grinding lathe tools. (http://www.sherline.com/grinding.htm) Hang in there, Mario ------- Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 07:38:54 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Shaper Toolholder for 7" AMMCO > Where does the Armstrong "Ace" line come onto the big picture? Roy--The Ace line of Armstrong tools were the virtually same tools except they were marked "Ace" and had different numbers. They were intended as slightly less expensive tools for the home shop and for schools. The line of Ace tools was never as extensive as the Armstrong industrial line of tools. Art ------- Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 10:13:28 EST From: jmartin957x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Grinding Shaper Bits In a message dated 12/18/05, krobinson44x~xxcox.net writes: > But if the tool doesn't rub, how can the clapper box operate? There > appears to be a definite "Bump" there to "Jump" the clapper box? Ken First, you need to understand what rubbing is. It is not specific to shapers - it applies in exactly the same manner to all cutting tools. It is, quite simply, the grinding of clearance and relief angles to ensure that the only part of the cutting tool that contacts the work is the sharp cutting edge. Every cutting tool has it. Well, almost every one. Some reamers are ground with cylindrical flutes, but the cutting edge on these is the chamfered area at the front which is relieved. Plain milling cutters may be ground without side relief, but these are designed to cut on the circumference, not the sides. Try cutting on the sides and you'll ruin them quickly. They do have radial relief. Woodworking jointer, planer and shaper knives are sometimes jointed after setting, which produces a radial land with no clearance. Once that land gets larger than a very tiny edge, however, the machine will start to bang and cut very poorly. Rubbing on the backstroke is another case. When you use hand tools such as hacksaws and files, you ease up on the backstroke to avoid dulling the teeth. A shaper is one of the very few machine tools that operate with anything other than a continuous cutting action. OK, a planer - but that works the same as a shaper. A power hacksaw relieves the pressure on the blade on the backstroke. A die filer doesn't, but there isn't too much pressure there to start with. Same with a scroll saw. A shaper cutter will rub at the cutting edge on the backstroke for two reasons. One: flex. There is enough flex in even a heavy machine tool so that the cutter will rub slightly on the back stroke. It may even be enough for a second or third cut at the same setting, which is the spring cut often used in threading or boring on the lathe. Two: feed. A shaper feeds on the back stroke, which means that there would be rubbing even if there were no flex. The rubbing is actually at the very cutting edge, and would quickly dull the tool if it were not for the clapper which allows the tool to swing out of the way. Often, as the tool swings, some part other than the cutting edge will come into contact with the work, which adds to tool life. The clapper box doesn't always jump and clap. Sometimes, on a fine cut, you can't even see it move - but you can feel it. John Martin ------- Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 23:59:46 -0000 From: "Geoff Kingma" Subject: Tangential Tool Holder in a Shaper Since I acquired my 6" Ammco shaper I have often wondered how well a tangential tool would work. I have one on both my Taig and 918 lathes. They are the Diamond Tool Holder sold by http://www.bay-com.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=2 and I have been extremely happy with them. So, today, I tried out the smaller one from the Taig on the shaper. It has a 3/8" square shank and uses a 1/8" square HSS toolbit. The larger one has a 1/4" square toolbit but the shank is 1/2" square, which is too big for the Ammco. I have posted a photo of the setup in "Metal shapers Pix" in the folder "Ammco 6" - Geoff kingma" Results? Well, I'm impressed. First a 4" wide slab of Aluminum - no problem with 0.020" deep cuts with a 0.009" index (3 clicks). Then a 4" wide piece of CRS. Also very good but a little rough. Finally a 4" piece of cast iron. Cuts fine but the finish is so-so. The finish on a 0.005" deep cut and two clicks (0.006") on the indexer was excellent in each case except for the cast iron. It really does need zero back rake. I didn't put any radius on the tip of the toolbit which may have accounted for the lined finish on the initial cuts. I'm sure that the ease of cutting, and finish, would be better with the 1/4" toolholder but I didn't want to machine down the width of the shank at this stage. The big advantage with a Tangential Tool is the ease of sharpening and also putting a radius on the tip. The disadvantage is the cost. I'm not sure I would spring for one just for a shaper. However, they are not too difficult to make (12 and 12 degrees), and I have seen plans on the Web. Has anyone tried this before? Regards, Geoff ------- Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 21:52:45 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: VVW Keyway Cutter? In Metal_Shapers, "Ken R" wrote: > The...VVW Shaper tool holder works great! It solved > that "Bounce, skip a line, cut" problem I was having just using the > lantern toolpost. > Are there instructions/plans somewhere for an internal keyway cutter > adaptation? I was thinking of a modified boring bar, how would you > recommend I secure it into the head of the VVW? Ken Ken-- That's two questions--your total allocation for this month of January...unless Santa left you a special coupon in your stocking. For February you get three questions, even though it is a short month, but only because of St. Valentine's day. ANSWER 1. Go to http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/Lewis_Machine_Tool . Enter "Files" and open "Shaper Tool Holders". "holder2.jpg" is a type modification for an Armstrong style adjustable tool holder to adapt it to cutting internal keyways. Note round hole for holding tool bit. Tool bit hole diameter calculation: square bit size multiplied by square-root of 2. Drills drill sloppy holes, so start with smaller drill bit until just rite. Tite is better. ANSWER 2. Go to your friendly ACE Hardware store (John Madden shops there) and buy a 19mm AF (across the flats) hex coupling nut and a 12.5mm threaded bolt to fit it. Make sure thread has sufficient length to be tightened inside of the coupling nut and extend enuf behind the socket so that the rear tightening nut can tighten everything securely. (Pretty tite, rite?) Also, make sure that the unthreaded shaft of the bolt is long enuf when the hex head is cut off for your purposes. Make the tool bit hole end like in "holder2.jpg" (see ANSWER 1). Don't cut off the bolt's hex head until it has been securely tightened to the coupling nut. After bolt and coupling nut assembly, you may wish to drill a cross hole thru the coupling nut & bolt for a tension pin to preclude loosening--or, before tightening the two, clean with acetone and then, after tightening, lead solder them together from the back end so that solder doesn't run into the exposed threads. A problem with using an off-the-shelf long threaded bolt is that the threads are normally rolled and thus have a greater OD than does the remaining unthreaded shaft. Extending the length of the thread with a die is possible, but resulting thread diameter will be smaller than spec and may be loose: then solder 'em tite. Lead solder (acid core) is more than enuf strong for this application. See ya in February. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 07:16:06 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Volz-Vitale-Williams (VVW) & Volz-Vitale-Fendley (VVF) Adjustable Tool Holders. Brad, et al-- NOTE: Several years ago I came up with the idea of fabbing a #39 size adjustable shaper tool using a 19mm 12-point 1/2-inch socket as the indexing head. The shank was made with two pieces of square key stock brazed/welded to this socket head. A 19mm-1.75 coupling nut indexed within the socket head. My first shank was held together with tapped holes and flat head screws. This was the V (Volz) initial version. I sent two "kits" to Mario V. who welded one and brazed the other together--a little bit of over-kill as he brazed the two shank pieces together too. The screws just held them together until they were brazed solid to the head; the shank when tightened in the tool post won't come apart. Mario suggested using just two drilled holes and a pair of tension pins to hold the key stock together = V-V (Volz-Vitale). I sent out "kits" to several other folks none of whom told me that they had ever built the kits. Mike F., however, one of the kit recipients, suggested use of 8-point sockets as then a coupling nut wouldn't be required, just a piece of square key stock that was threaded, holed, etc. V-V-F (Volz-Vitale- Fendley for the 8-point version). Not as fine an indexing capability as a 12-point socket would provide, but that was OK: it's just harder than heck to find 8-point sockets anymore except at flea markets, pawn shops, and eBay. I bought a set of 1/2-inch Craftsman 8-point sockets on eBay, but didn't want to convert just one of the set into a tool holder. Besides the 12-point socket method plus metric rod coupler was cheap and parts were readily available...on a Sunday afternoon. There are some other points: the square tool bit is held in a round hole thru the coupling nut and tightened via a 12.5-1.75 cap screw which pulls the square bit flat and tite against the face of the socket. To set up for brazing the shank to the socket head, a 6-inch length of key stock is tightened in the socket head as if it were a tool bit, and the head (with chrome removed at braze area) is held fixed and aligned parallel to the composite shank via two small C-clamps. Shims between the shank and the aligning keystock creates an automatic tool bit clearance vis-a-vis the shank. Piece of cake. Duck soup. Hear the cries: "BUT...DAMN IT!!!...IT'S NOT A REAL ARMSTRONG #39!!!" Early last fall, Joe W. silver brazed three 12-point kits together for me = Volz-Vitale-Williams (Mike apparently never made his original kit of several years ago or made an 8-point version. Mike??). Of the 3 kits that Joe brazed, I kept one, one I sent to Irby J. for his rat boyz to test, & one I sent to Canyonman Ken. I still haven't drawn anything pretty for scanning and posting...maybe I'll rough out a dimensioned sketch on the back of an envelope sometime this spring and ask Joe or Irby to scan and post it. Maybe. So...that's the straight skinny...and over an hour's worth of composing. Questions are easy to ask; answers take a lot of time. Last year (about August) I sent the following msg to the groupies at Lewis_Machine_Tool: In Lewis_Machine_Toolx~xxyahoogroups.com, "Art Volz" wrote: Soon I hope to be able to post a new drawing of the Volz- Vitale-Fendley "Sunday Afternoon Special" adjsutable shaper tool holder which can be fabbed in about an hour from readily available off-the-shelf & parts-bin parts. For those wanting to get a head start for this #39 size tool holder here is a list of what you need: Parts List: --12 point 19mm hex socket, 1/2-inch drive. Lowe's Kobalt brand #82171 22519 is cheap and works perfectly --hex head cap screw 12-1.75 x 25mm --rod coupling nut 12-1.75 thread with 19mm across the flats (AF) --3/8 x 3/8 x 12 inches keystock --two 1/8 x 1 inch tension pins Additional jig parts for holding when brazing shank to head: --1/4 x 1/4 x 12 inches keystock --two 1/8 inch thick steel washers (spacers) --two 1-inch capacity C-clamps--"Adjustable" brand is the best, are USA made, and are as cheap as the inferior imported junk. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2006 01:47:32 -0000 From: "derstine2002" Subject: A new toy, and some questions. I bought an Atlas 7" shaper a 1 ½ years ago and after setting it up, never really used it. I had trouble with the tool bits. A couple of weeks ago I finally spent some time with it and reground some of the tool bits and started making chips. With a broad round nose cutter I could get really smooth cuts. Thanks to the files section I downloaded the Atlas manual and figured out ram adjustments and the like. I figured out how to change the table cross feed speed from really slow to much faster. I rented Rudy Kouhoupt's video on "6 projects for a shaper" this week and learned some more things about operating my shaper. I have a tool holder question. What came with my shaper were three Armstrong tool bit holders. A left, right and straight tool bit holder. Does any body use them on the shaper? Why would you need a left and right when the head can tilt? Rudy mentions that the tool bits should be ground like a lathe tool. With these tool holders, they hold the bits at angle. When grinding them I have to make adjustments so that the cutting edge is cutting instead rubbing below the edge. Obviously I'm not grinding them correctly. I have a quick change tool holder for my lathe and the tool bits are held in a horizontal position. If I grind like I do for the lathe, when I put them in the Armstrong holder the angles are off due to the fact that the Armstrong tool holder, mounts the tool bits on an angle. I may have read this on this site but I'm thinking of making a tool bit holder that would fit in the lantern style holder but have a ¾ inch solid round stock welded to the bottom. I could drill a hole in the round piece to mount the tool bits vertically instead of on an angle like the Armstrong tool bit holders. I also could make it so the tool bit would be under the pivot pin instead of out in front like the regular style. According to Rudy he gets a better finish when the tool bit is below the pivot pin. He made a special clapper box to achieve those results. Any thought on tool bit holder and such would be appreciated. I have a bunch of ¼ inch by 2" or shorter that I'd like to use. Some fellows use 3/8" wide 4 inch long tool bits that fit in the lantern post. I don't have anything quite so large. I'm starting to like the shaper for being so quiet and the nice finishes it puts out. With the right set up can the shaper take a fairly large cut? I'm making a part that need a fair bit of material remove and I can't take a very deep cut; makes me wish for a milling machine. Thanks for listening to me ramble. Jerry Souderton Pa ------- Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2006 07:14:22 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: An old boy, and some answers--Re: A new toy, and some questions. Jerry: > What came with my shaper were three Armstrong tool bit holders. > A left, right and straight tool bit holder. The tool holders that you have are designed for use in LATHE lantern tool posts. If they were marked with a prefix "T", for tungsten carbide, they would properly hold the HSS tool bit straight for shaper use. You could, however, hacksaw the shank off of one and use it when you make your own toolholder. (see more below) > Any thought on tool bit holder and such would be appreciated. For plans on how to easily fabricate your own Armstrong #39 style adjustable shaper tool holder go to: http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/Lewis_Machine_Tool. Once there go to "Files" and open directory "Shaper Tool Holders". Click on the file "shaper tool holder 1.jpg": make that one. Be happy. The Atlas manual that you downloaded really doesn't have much poop in it. The manual you want is the Army Technical Manual for the South Bend 7-inch shaper which is filled with good poop, albeit all of olive drab hue, or OD Poop. It has an illustrated section on the properly ground tool bits to use: http://lathe.com/YahooGroups/Files/Metal_Shapers/sbarmy7shaper.pdf Make sure that everything on your shaper is tight but not too tight: just right. If anything in the cutting chain of events is loose, it will make the tool bit, no matter how perfectly it was ground, look bad. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 09:40:31 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: shaper tool holder Armstrong Goose neck Jonas Thomas wrote: > Art, The things for threading?? Huh... I don't suppose knows > of a link on how it's supposed to be used. I happen to own one. JT Jonas--For cutting threads on a lathe with your goose neck threading tool, you align the threading cutter bit with the work in the same manner as with normal lathe tool holders holding threading bits. Old timers thought the springy goose neck gave better finishes--but, in them old time days lathes were a lot looser--like a goose--and springiness may have smoothed out the "goose bumps", or the old timers thought they did. As lathes became more and more precise and rigid, the goose neck tools seemed to have goose stepped into oblivion. Today, Armstrong ( http://www.armstrongtools.com ) only makes a rigid lathe threading tool holder that uses roundish HSS preformed inserts that can be resharpened until you run out of round insert to sharpen. The newest Armstrong catalog that I have hails from 1973. Armstrong, at that time, made 4 different sizes of their goose neck (they didn't call it that) "Spring Threading Tool" (which they did call it): S-50, S-51, S-52, and S-53, with shank widths of 3/8, 1/2, 5/8, and 3/4 inches. Here's some of that catalog's descriptive rhetoric back in them days: "The Armstrong Spring Threading Tool (for square cutters) is designed to combine strength and convenience of adjustment and operation with the resiliency which is considered by many machinists to be helpful in obtaining a smooth finishing cut or thread, especially on tough alloy steel." "Convenient means are also provided for obtaining complete rigidity when desired as, for instance in taking a roughing cut or doing an ordinary job of turning. The cutter can be held at different angles as shown." (The illustration depicts three slight angles of left, straight, and right... like the three normal lathe tool holders.) "High Speed threading cutters for this tool are furnished ground to Sharp V-thread form." "Any other form required may be quickly ground to shape from standard Armstrong High Speed Steel tool bits." But, Jonas, as they say: if it works for you, go for it. I think though, that your shaper time would be be better utilized if instead you used a made-for-shapers Armstrong adjustable shaper tool holder which rigidly holds the tool bit, is adjustable as to head angle, holds the bit at 90 degrees to the work, and a clone copy can be readily fabbed by using my dimensioned drawing in "Files" at http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/Lewis_Machine_Tool Enjoy! Art (Houston) PS. Make some quick dough on eBay from the gullible: list your goose necker as a "shaper tool holder" and reap the green. Many unscrupulous sellers do...but, that, would be unscrupulous. :-) AV ------- Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 14:26:54 EST From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: shaper tool holder Armstrong Goose neck > Old timers thought the springy goose neck gave better finishes-- on early lathes w/out compounds ,thrdng was done "straight in " w/ the crosslide ,the bit cutting on both sides ....the spring allowed for heavier cleaner cuts ....& it does work ....i have a very springy goose neck tool that w/ a 3/8 bit ground flat on end , i can plunge cut w/out chatter in first open speed on a 2 in bar... mu 1895 lathe is w/out factory compound & i use this holder to point up a chucked up center... tool bit can be seen springing down 1/16 in ..what this does for precise diameters, is another story best wishes docn8as ------- NOTE TO FILE: Naturally if you are reading this file with the intent of learning about shaper tools and their cutters, it will also be useful to learn more about single point cutters in the "Cutters, Collets and Arbors" file where single point cutters are used for the lathe. In many instances the same cutter or holder can be used on both lathe AND shaper. ------- shaper tool bits for armstrng 401 [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" n8as1x~xxaol.com Date: Sun Jun 11, 2006 9:58 am (PDT) FWIW for those who have armstrong shaper tool hldr for 5/15X 7/16 ....... wholesale too has 5/16 x 1/2 bits for 10 / #6.50 ( .65 EA.FOR THREE OR MORE)...i ground the first one down to 7/16...,finished on surface grndr....checked hardness of holder & went the other route ... alternately filing & driving bit in slot of the head to mark , & holder now takes 5/16 x 1/2 ...necessary to extend the relief for bit on the shank , as the bit is longer than original .....did some serious metal removal w/ 16 in S&M,& bits seem to hold up as well as other china square bits i am using in lathes ..i have no way to compare w/ top grade U S , but i just had 20 more bits arrive Thursday ,totalling 30, so i now have a supply for whats left of my lifetime....IMO ,a worthwhile modification ,took less than 30 min ....several narrowed down hacksaw blades may make it go even faster /// best wishes docn8as PS art is correct( per usual) ...xperimented w/ gooseneck thrdng tool as a shaper tool ( absolutely wont work reversed to get the spring behing clapper pin ( go figure that)....w/ g/neck in normal position , does not hold bit securely enuf for any but lightest cuts ,unless the knurled brace in rear is applied ,at which point ,u no longer have a spring tool, & w/ heavy cuts even brace doesent hold adequately ...shop made 3/8 bit spring holder worked beautifully for this job... -------- Re: shaper tool bits for armstrng 401 Posted by: "Art Volz" volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Jun 11, 2006 10:56 am (PDT) Hi Doc--I picked up several of each of Wholesale Tool's 5 different size rectangular tool bits that they offer several years ago. Since they're ground, they also work well as parallels when setting up work in vices. Cheap enuf...and good enuf for me. I have no idea what type of HSS these chinese tools are supposed to be, but suspect that they are tungsten based rather than molybdenum. To see: http://www.wttool.com --> SEARCH keywords: "ground rectangular tool bits" --> 5 different sizes. Did your Armstrong 401 cry when you trimmed his head...forever? Such savagery! :-) Art (Houston) ------- Re: shaper tool bits for armstrng 401 Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" n8as1x~xxaol.com Date: Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:38 am (PDT) volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com writes: > Did your Armstrong 401 cry when you trimmed his head...forever? > Such savagery! :-) no , but I near did ..which is why i ground down the first first tool bit ...fortunately have a couple more due to $ 50 dollar minimum order... best wishes docn8as ------- Re: shaper tool bits for armstrng 401 Posted by: "Jack Vines" Jack.Vinesx~xxptpprograms.org Date: Sun Jun 11, 2006 2:03 pm (PDT) Hi, Everyone: Am new to the shaper, but was give a fairly good old Atlas 7" on a really nice cast iron stand. Apology in advance if this is really bad science and a Question for those who know good science. The Atlas has what I take to be a standard 5/16" wide X 1 ½" long tool post holder slot. On those operations where the workpiece can be relatively close to the clapper, can a 5/16" x ½" x 4" HSS tool bit like those described below be run directly in the tool post without a separate tool holder? It seems this setup would be hold the tool bit much more rigidly than the long articulated Acme tool holder with the short ¼" square tool bit, since all of the back side of the tool bit would be against the clapper. Is this setup regularly done? If so, are there any special clearance grinding issues to having the cutting edge relatively close to the clapper? If not why is it better to have the cutting edge in a tool holder and extending several inches below the clapper? Thanks for your patience with a noviate. Jv. ------- Re: shaper tool bits for armstrng 401 Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" n8as1x~xxaol.com Date: Sun Jun 11, 2006 8:34 pm (PDT) Jack.Vinesx~xxptpprograms.org writes: > Is this setup regularly done? ... shaper tools were originally solid forged,back in carbon steel days . as were lathe tools ...w/ the advsnt of hi speed , cost became an issue & holders& tool BITS were the result ...they were DESIGNED so as to maintain same ridgidity....no problem w/ using solid tools where interference is no problem (surfacing) ...on some jobs ,even w/ holders , the bit has to hang out more than i wud want .....FWIW .wholesale tool also has 3/8 X 1/2 for those so inclined, at comparable prices & my atlas will handle 3/8 ( perhaps it has been opened up ... ridgidity is limited by lack of mass of larger components, small dovetails, loose / worn slides , etc. ...wud guess that one gives up very little w/ holder & bit ..but ,that said , i have not done ANY comparison testing & i usually do some before venturing an opinion ..i also wud welcome experienced comments ! .i was posting for larger shapers like my 16 & 20 in. had not considered the 7 in . ..at the available price, stocking up on 3/8 x 1/2 bits appears to be an xcellent idea...caveat .. when u start MAKING stuff w/ shaper ,those pesky interferences manifest themselves....also ,having free hand ground some 3/4 x11/2 (?) bits at one time , i really appreciate grinding 1/4 bits !!! best wishes docn8as ------- Re: shaper tool bits for armstrng 401 Posted by: "rvannatta" robertx~xxvannattabros.com Date: Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:58 am (PDT) Well, I have no clue how you are suppose to make shaper cutters. We bought a shaper, and tranferred what we knew about lathe cutters so we use hi-speed steel cutters in our shaper, out of the same pile of cutters that we use for the lathe. You don't want to use a carbide because of the impact. ------- Re: shaper tool bits for armstrng 401 Posted by: "Art Volz" volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:23 pm (PDT) Robert -- For fundamentals of grinding shaper tool bits see: http://lathe.com/YahooGroups/Files/Metal_Shapers/sbarmy7shaper.pdf > You don't want to use a carbide because of the impact. There are grades of carbide that can be used, and have been used, for utilizing carbide cutters on shapers. The real problem, however, is having a shaper with cutting speeds of 300 feet per minute or more. Cincinnati's strokin' smokin' c. 1955 all steel 42-incher with the triangular ram was one such animal. G&L, who had bought out Cincinnati Planer, made high speed carbide capable planers as did Rockford who called theirs a shaper-planer. A article in the September 1955 issue of "The Tool Engineer" tells how to use carbide tooling on high speed shapers and planers to double metal removal rates. Roland Hecker (Chief Designer, Giddings & Lewis Machine Tool Co., Fond du Loc, Wisc.) discussed use of specially designed clamped carbide shear-angle shaper/planer tools. Now, to get a 300-400 FPM shaper that can effectively use carbide tooling. Cincinnati did it with a high speed direct drive screw; Rockford did it with a combo of a double-acting and a single-acting hydraulic cyclinder in their drive circuitry. Cincinnati made two Beasts: Big Beast with a 42-inch stroke and Baby Beast with a short 33-1/2 inch stroke, the latter marketed by Schlenker & Company (Eric R. Bachmann Co., Inc.) in 1956. I know that Big Beast was used in the machine shop at Cincinnati Shaper for a number of years. I have no idea, today, what has become of either Big Beast or Baby Beast. I suspect that both were scrapped long ago. If anyone sees a large 33 or 42-inch shaper, of all steel construction, with a very different looking TRIANGULAR ram, LET ME KNOW SOONEST IF NOT SOONER!!!!! Art (Houston) ------- Re: Tool post question Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" n8as1x~xxaol.com Date: Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:33 pm (PDT) alainx~xxreptilecanada.com writes: > Also, I cannot get the smooth surface finish I have heard so much > about. Do I need a goose neck tool holder? Al shear tool gives best results at .005 doc or less ..flat point of 1/16 +& some back rake is second & a knife or "dutch nose" (like a wide cutoff tool ,near full bit width & slight back rake , as well as slightly thinner back or the cutting edge,) set as flat as machine will stand is 3rd. shear tool is easiest to grind by starting w/ the EDGE vertical ... now grind a round point bit w/ few degrees clearance, 3-4 in radius on end ...set the bit so leading edge is on rt front for cutting to left ( it then has serious neg. rake & shears across .,cutting from the middle of the radius...bacon grease ,lard oil , old engine oil ( DIRTY ) helps ringed seat for t/holder provides a secure seat & aids in preventing rotation of t/holder machune tool operation --burghardt is available used very reasonable & vol 2 is FULL of shaper work ,bits ,techniques ,uses ...was written originally in early 20's before vert. mills were in common use...after 40 yrs ,i still refer back to BOTH volumes best wishes docn8as ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following message thread is applicable to any shaper brand. Good general information and tips. ------- Lewis shaper problems [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Rick Hill" grampasplanesx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Jan 1, 2007 12:44 pm ((PST)) Hi all, I'm having problems with my rectangular type ways Lewis. I can't do any slot or cutoff tool type work without the machine (tool?) doing a diving type grab into the work and locking up the machine with the belt spinning. Now I can take a good depth of cut if I'm just surfacing but it digs in when I feed down into the work. Any ideas? Thanks ahead of time. Rick ------- Re: Lewis shaper problems Posted by: "gdstorrick" storrickx~xxconcentric.net Date: Mon Jan 1, 2007 2:14 pm ((PST)) What does the tool bit look like (shape, rake angles, etc.)? Gary ------- Re: Lewis shaper problems Posted by: "Reid Kowallis" kowallrbx~xxmsn.com Date: Mon Jan 1, 2007 6:11 pm ((PST)) Hi Rick: Proper tool geometry is extremely important for that type of work. Are you using a LATHE tool holder with backe rake built in? If so, this could be part of the problem. The tool will dig in ("dive type grab...") as it flexes due to the excessive front clearance required by this type of holder. Be sure to use a real shaper tool holder with no back rake built in. Cheers, Reid Kowallis ------- Re: Lewis shaper problems Posted by: "Rick Hill" grampasplanesx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Jan 1, 2007 6:29 pm ((PST)) Gary: The shape is a broad flat tool like a lathe cutoff tool. I tried it all: small clearance angles, large clearance angles, negative rakes, positive rakes. The rake angles were as recommended in shaper books. All I know is that the broader the tool point, the more it has a tendency to dig in while the cutter is fed down into the work. Even a sharp pointed tool will bog the machine down it when gets to a certain depth. Now I can take a roughing of cut of over 1/8" if I start off of the piece and feed horizontally, but if I feed down it bogs the machine. I would like to use this machine for more than a surfacer. I would like to cut grooves, slots, dovetails and such too. Rick ------- Re: Lewis shaper problems Posted by: "jmartin957x~xxaol.com" jmartin957x~xxaol.com Date: Mon Jan 1, 2007 10:08 pm ((PST)) First thing I'd check is relationship of cutting edge to hinge of clapper box. The more the cutting edge is forward of the pivot point, the more it will dig in under cutting pressure. Then, the rigidity of everything, from the tool bit through to the table. Any flex will allow the dig in. Flex in the cutoff blade may allow it to dig sideways in the slot. Make sure the front edge of the tool is perfectly square across, or that will drive it to one side. John Martin ------- Re: Lewis shaper problems Posted by: "John A. Landry" gyropilotx~xxautorotation.net Date: Tue Jan 2, 2007 8:16 am ((PST)) In addition to what John M. said above, I'd also like to add that the tool bit should protrude below the clapper only the *absolute minimum* necessary for the clapper box to clear the work piece below it. Increased protrusion of the tool bit (and tool holder if you're using one) below the clapper will require progressively lighter feed rates. As a natural result, cutting grooves requires a light feed. Also, make sure the clapper box seats fully, easily, and squarely (on its own) into the clapper box. I mention this because if the clapper can move deeper into the clapper box under pressure from the cut, it can have the effect of increasing tool rake and the depth of tool bit cut, which can cause digging in. Can you dig it? :) John L. ------- Parting tool for plunge cuts [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: willcocksx~xxchelstonhouse.freeserve.co.uk Date: Thu Mar 15, 2007 7:13 am ((PDT)) Hi all, I've got a Denford Viceroy 250mm stroke shaper. It struggles to take plunge cuts with a normal parting type tool. I've just got good results using a 1/16" by 1/2" parting tool fitted in a piece of 12mm square black mild steel. I cut a slot in the steel about 1" deep from the end in, using a slitting saw in the mill/drill. I then cut off about 1 1/2" off the parting tool with a Dremel. I silver soldered the piece of parting tool into the slot, and sharpened it on the front edge, no top rake. (Note this parting tool is not tapered from top to bottom, so it fits the slot o/k.) I can now take plunging cuts quite easily, but care is still needed. I advance the tool, take a cut the allow it to cut again before advancing the tool for the next cut. I would be interested to know how others have overcome this problem. Regards, John ------- Re: Parting tool for plunge cuts Posted by: "in2steam" in2steamx~xxwi.rr.com Date: Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:07 am ((PDT)) John if I am understanding you correctly, you took a lathe cutoff tool, SS, to a machined block after cutting it off with a dremel tool? Sounds like a lot of work to make a slotting tool. Why not just grind a piece of HSS, in the form of a slotting/keyway tool with relief. With a parting tool you are not getting the correct angle for plane cutting if I am not mistaken anyway if you used one with a lathe grind. If you use a regular tool with a narrow grind, and side relief (the tip is wider than the base). Then the deeper you get the tool does not run. How much of a plunge cut are you trying to take in: A. one pass, B. total C. how wide (left to right)? Any other info on your setup and stroke etc. chris ------- Re: Parting tool for plunge cuts Posted by: willcocksx~xxchelstonhouse.freeserve.co.uk Date: Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:10 am ((PDT)) Thanks for your comments. It's difficult to describe these jobs without a picture/drawing. I had to machine a slot, with the tool extended about 2 1/2" from the clapper box, due to lack of clearance. I found that a narrow tool 1/16" worked well for this. As you say, a piece of HSS ground to this width would have worked fine, however the piece of parting tool silver-soldered into a length of mild steel was quick to make and worked well. I took cuts of about 6 thou depth with no problem, but wider slotting tools cause lots of chatter/poor finish; is this normal for a 10" shaper? John ------- Re: Parting tool for plunge cuts Posted by: "John A. Landry" gyropilotx~xxautorotation.net Date: Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:27 am ((PDT)) John: If I understand what you were doing, all I can say is I've h