Here find many useful tips on shaper repair and getting them back into service. The shaper files are sometimes the hardest to categorize of any on this site. They frequently start as one subject and wander off onto other subjects. For example, someone asks about how to fix a shaper physical problem. The message thread, which you would expect to find in the file "Shaper Repair General" sometimes ends up better suited for the "Shaping Tips" file if the real problem is bad technique, not a bad shaper. Sometimes that better technique also involves shaper bits or toolholders. We have a file here for that called "Shaper Bits and Toolholders". But I cannot put the thread in all files possible. The thread goes into the shaper file that is most appropriate (my choice) or causes me the least editing/typing and/or headache at the end of a long day. Just not enough room on my site for posting threads in multiple files. As mentioned on my home page, you will get the most information out of these files if you check through all of most likely ones for the problem at hand, if the file you try first does not have a full answer. It sure isn't a perfect system, but after a while you will gain the knack of scrolling/skimming files at high speed. If you have copied the files to your site, you can use your text editor or word processor to open all the shaper files at once, and do word searches across all open files at once. Yours can't do that? Get a free copy of NoteTab Light through the home page link. A good tool. [I have no relationship with them except as a very pleased user of that free program.] If you got to this file directly from my HOME PAGE, return there by using your browser's back button. BUT if you came to this file as the result of a web search engine, see more than 70 additional files on my home page Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ SAFETY WARNING BEWARE: DO NOT ASSUME that any subject matter or procedure or process is safe or correct or appropriate just because it was mentioned in a news/user group or was included in these files or on this site or on any other web site or was published in a magazine or book or video. Working with metals and machinery and chemicals and electrical equipment is inherently dangerous. Wear safety devices and clothing as appropriate. Remove watches, rings, and jewellery -- and secure or remove loose clothing -- before operating any machine. Read, understand and follow the latest operating procedures and safety instructions provided by the manufacturer of your machine or tool or product. If you do not have those most recent official instructions, acquire a copy through the manufacturer before operating or using their product. Where the company no longer exists, use the appropriate news or user group to locate an official copy. Be careful -- original instructions may not meet current safety standards. Updated safety information and operating instructions may also be available through a local club, a local professional in the trade, a local business, or an appropriate government agency. In every case, use your common sense before beginning or taking the next step; and do not proceed if you have any questions or doubts about any procedure, or the safety of any procedure. Follow all laws and codes, and employ certified or licenced professionals as required by those laws or codes. Hazardous tasks beyond your competence or expertise should also be contracted to professionals. Let's be really careful out there. (c) Copyright 2003 - 2008 Machining and Metalworking at Home The form of the collected work in this text file (including editing, additions, and notes) is copyrighted and this file is not to be reproduced by any means, including electronic, without written permission except for strictly personal use. ========================================================================== Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 12:54:49 -0600 (CST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: Shaper fumbles [posting in taigtools group] On Fri, 22 Mar 2002, Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein wrote: > Shapers are cool. Man, I can't wait to get mine going! > The Shaper works really well with the Taig equipment, as you can use > it to do all the brute shaping before you mill to size on the Taig. > Turns hot rolled angle iron into angle plates like that! If you can, > get some cast iron bar stock, it machines so beautifully on a shaper, > that the finish almost looks ground. I've got an odd problem ahead of me for restoring mine. Lemme run the solution by you to get your feedback. I *think* I can pull this off, but no guarantees. The problem is one of the inaccuracies I've come across is the dovetails. They're supposed to be 60 degree dovetails, but I did some spot checks and the dovetails for the vertical slides don't meet cleanly. I talked to someone else who has a Lewis shaper, and he said my best bet (along with scraping the ways flat) is to make a 60 degree master angle and use that to scrape the dovetails. The problem is I'd like to use the shaper to make the master 60 degree angle for the very reason that Nick mentioned: I'd need to machine the angle out of cast iron, then scrape the two sides flat. I'd prefer to use the shaper because it's a great way to prep a surface for scraping. Here's why I think I can pull it off: The vertical slide on my shaper needs truckloads of work. The horizontal slide is more or less ok. It's not a scraped surface, but it's pretty accurate. Since the two cuts I'd need to take would be horizontal and at an angle, I could lock the vertical slide and use the other two. But yeah, I'd need to find some cast iron bar stock (at least 1"x1"), grind some shaper tools (which I've never done), bolt on a jackshaft and motor (I need a new motor), and pray. Am I nuts? Tom ------- Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:23:06 -0500 From: Larry Richter Subject: Re: Shaper fumbles I'm not getting the problem, unless you mean the sides of the big vertical dovetail plate on the front of the shaper main body aren't parallel. There is a picture of the Lewis shaper on a british site along with other stuff from the Lewis catalog of 1944. If that plate comes off, it would be real tempting to take it somewhere and have it squared up. If I understand the problem. Which I don't. http://www.lathes.co.uk/lewis/ ------- Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 15:04:33 -0600 (CST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: Shaper fumbles Got that UK stuff printed and in my shop notebook. (Fantastic site, BTW.) A while back a new set of Lewis castings came up on eBay, along with blueprints. The seller kindly sold me a photocopy of the blueprints, which I'm using to help me rebuild this thing. The quality's not ideal, or I'd probably send the webmaster at www.lathes.co.uk a copy for the web site. And yes, you hit the problem on the head: The sides of the dovetail aren't parallel. The vertical slide is too lose at the top, and it binds at the bottom. So yeah, you understand the problem perfectly. Unfortunately the plate doesn't come off. One of the first steps I took during this restoration was to completely disassemble the shaper and take it to an engine shop to get it tanked. It was the first time I'd ever run across the term, so I hope I don't bore people by describing it: "Tanking" involves immersing parts into a vat of hot sodium hydroxide until there's nothing left but metal. This works great with steel and iron (which sodium hydroxide (lye) won't touch). Not so good with aluminum, which gets eaten by lye. The upshot is that once you've had stuff tanked, all you're left with is the original casting. It cost me about $50US. Once all the paint and filler was off, I got to take a look at how the thing was put together. The column consists of three castings, which are welded together. The dovetail slide is one of the castings. Unfortunately it was very thoroughly welded on, and not simply bolted and painted over. That being said, though, I got some input on how to measure (and correct) the dovetails from someone else who has a Lewis shaper. It's important to note that they're not out by much. Maybe a few thout at most (meaning one or two, not ten or fifteen). So this will be tedious, but it should work: Lay the entire column face-down on a surface plate, and place two dowel rods along the length of the dovetail on either side. Seen from one end of the dovetail, it looks like: X( )/___________\( )X ------------------- Legend: ( ) = dowel rod /__________\ = dovetail --------- = surface plate Measure from X to X with calipers. If the two sides of the dovetail are not parallel (and I already know they're not on my shaper), it should be measurable. Ideally you'd mill them parallel. But I don't have a mill big enough and can't afford to have it done. So the trick is to file them parallel, use the 60 degree master angle to make sure they have the right angle (they don't exactly), and scrape them flat. At that point you've got a good dovetail. Great in theory, but my guess is it's going to be weeks if not months of work to bring it into alignment by hand, and result in a good dovetail. What complicates all this, of course, is that in addition to making the dovetail the right shape, flat, and parallel, I've also got to get it into alignment with the ram slide. I haven't 100% figured that one out yet. It's a good project. I'm learning a lot about machine fabrication and repair, and a bunch about shapers. (Some day I just hope I get to use mine!) Tom ------- Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 16:46:33 -0500 From: Larry Richter Subject: Re: Shaper fumbles Jackleg baling wire fix thought number A-17: it seems like you could be free to cut and mount a replacement dovetail plate to the face of the existing plate, if that face is fairly flat now. Might be able to make the damn thing swivel -- no, that would booger up the ratchet advance. Well. Sorry. Jackleg baling wire fix thought number B-37: If one side of the dovetail just happens to be vertical and square, maybe you could replace the gib with one those diamond coated steel plates and make the vertical carriage duplicate the good side for you. ------- Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 05:41:21 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Help needed wit 7" South Bend Shaper project. --- In Metal_Shapersx~xxy..., "John Guenther" wrote: >> We are working on restoring 2 7" SB shapers. One is in pretty good condition, the other needs more help. It appears that one of them has been run with out lubrication on the ram ways, there is galling on the under side of the ram on the left side and on the slide area of the column for the ram. << John-- First download and read PDF document "sbarmy7shaper.pdf" at "Files" here. (If you have a ZIP drive it is best to store all of your SB files on a ZIP 100/250 disk as you will then have repeatable & instant access after the first download.) Go to page 28 of this manual to see how to adjust the valves that are supposed to regulate the lube oil to the ram slideways, the bull gear, and the rocker arm shoe (the crank slider). Insure that lube oil freely flows to all 4 areas; if not, you'll have to clean out the blocked tube(s). Resist removing any metal on the slideways to "fix" the problem, by either grinding and/or scraping, unless you are an expert in doing both. I've "fixed", and learned not to try to so "fix" ever again, many things mechanical over the years by "fixing" them for good: permanently broken and worse than at first. Instead, you may wish to use one of the industry standard slideway fixing processes that utilize applications of low-friction-compound filled epoxy resins. One of the processes uses a proprietary compound called "Moglice"; the other uses a similar proprietary compound called "Black 2000". Neither are cheap, but they are what industry commonly uses to repair damaged and/or worn slideways. For information concerning each process, download both the Moglice "Machine Tool Way Rebuilding" handbook (long download--good for a ZIP disk--6.6Mb) and two of the Philly Cast Technical Bulletins on "Black 2000": http://www.moglice.com/handbookpdfs/handbook.pdf (6.6Mb) http://www.phillycast.com/products/b835c.pdf (65K) http://www.phillycast.com/products/ins-2000.pdf (22K) >> This shaper also has what appears to be a shop made steel bull gear.<< Ah, phenolic plastic laminated bull gear problems, perhaps??? ...and that most adorable toothless grin of the Phenolic Tooth Fairy!!! (Where do you think she looked for her new charges...on the table top 'neath the sleeping tool head?) >> problems I see with this is that the bull gear hub was removed from the bull gear shank and reinstalled 90 degrees from where it should be. I know this was done because there is a new position for the pin the keys the bull gear hub to the bull gear shank. What problems will this cause? It would seem that the timing for the table advance would be incorrect which could cause table advance to occur during the cut instead of at the end of the return stroke. There is chatter on the power stroke, even when the unit is not cutting. I have not got around to checking the bushings on all the shafts yet but there is definitely a problem. << Some thoughts: Make sure that the rocker arm and the link that connects it to the ram are installed in the correct direction so that it pushes when it it's supposed to push and pulls when it's supposed to push. Are you getting any lube to the bull gear...and to the shoe that rides in the slot on the rocker arm? No lube, or not enuf, is Lady Chattering's True Lover: Sir Galling d'Friction. As to installation of the bull gear vis-a-vis the bull gear shank: is it installed incorrectly, as you suggested, or not? You CAN'T be doing table cross feeding during the ram power stroke. Manually lube everthing, and then check, under power, whether the slow stroke is on ramming and the quick stroke is on return. If not...and use maximum stroke length to be better able to tell the time difference--reverse the direction of rotation of your motor. Prior to doing any operation under motor power...and especially after making any and all adjustments...run the shaper thru several ram/retracts by hand...just to insure that you're not going to hit anything. This is a standard, ALWAYS, pre-operation procedure and it immediately follows the lubing, manually, of everything that needs lube. Quick check the shafts' running bushings by seeing if you can manually get them to "rock"; a more precise measured check later of the diameters to insure that they are regular and uniform and are within the proper tolerances for running fits. (See "Machinery Handbook" for diameters and their running fit tolerances.) Use a correct modern "waylube" oil of the proper viscosity. Check to see what viscosity lube oil (page 28 of SB TM that you have downloaded onto ZIP disk already) is required. Hint: it's Saybolt Seconds or SSU 200 x~xx 100 F; look at the cross-refence chart in one of the two lubrication files that I uploaded to "Files" to determine it's current SAE viscosity grade and its current ISO VG. Buy a gallon of the Mobile waylube oil that matches this viscosity or use a NON-DETERGERENT SAE single weight viscosity oil until you can obtain the proper grade of waylube. (Download those 2 lube files to your ZIP disk too...for future and continuing reference. And, Thank Scott for first posting them to his "Lathe-List" group from which I purloined them.) > John Guenther 'Ye Olde Pen Maker' Sterling, Virginia Art (Houston) ------- Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 08:35:27 -0500 From: "John Guenther" Subject: RE: Re: Help needed wit 7" South Bend Shaper project. Art: Thanks for your reply, that's lots of useful information. I have the Army manual along with everything else I can get my hands for the SB shaper. I have already decided to use Moglice or one of the others for the slide way repairs, taking material off just did not make sense to me. Seemed like it would disturb too many other things that would just increase the problems of getting it right. The more I study the bull gear shank and the flange the more it looks like the shank has been replaced and the new one is not correct. I am going over to the shop where the shapers are this weekend to look at and photograph the one for the other shaper. My current theory is that the thing was trying to advance on the cutting stroke, the table was normally run from left to right which would put rotational force on the ram in a counter clockwise direction causing excessive pressure on the left slide way which is where the major damage is. This is all looking at the shaper from the front. John Guenther 'Ye Olde Pen Maker' Sterling, Virginia ------- Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 20:36:19 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Help needed wit 7" South Bend Shaper project. John--That is an interesting theory of possible cause of ram-way damage. You might wish to confirm by observation, if things twist and turn as you suppose, by manually turning the shaper thru its cycle--maybe clock indicators installed at various positions--table and ram at least--to see what is twisting and turning...and when. A shaper is a dynamic-mechanical-train of events from the low end starting at the motor all the way thru the train until sizzling blue chips (I NEVER run my antique Lewis-10 at warp speed--I run mine more like an 80 year old granny does when motoring her 1952 DeSoto to St. Mary's on a spring Sunday morn just down the block apiece) fly helter- skelter from the finely honed tip of the bit. ANY noise and ANY vibration and ANY perceived deflection movement is BAD. The mechanical train is hurtin' and is about to hurt a lot more...maybe even catastrophically (sp?). When noise, vibration, or wrong moventments are observed it is time to STOP THAT DeSOTO! Check also to see what is heating up: heat = un-lubed friction between machine elements. To find the mechanical problem that IS the cause means to start first at the low end of the train, at the motor itself, and un- hitch everything above it. Slowly reconstitute the train until sources of vibration/noise/movement/heat are found and CORRECTED. Then proceed--link by link--up the train until all faults are totally corrected, or at least are acceptable without potential of causing further damage. In older age you've gotta learn to live...and continue to operate...in an ever advancing state of wear, by, often in my case, reducing speed to DeSoto tolerable levels of comfort. (Good "lubing" also assists me considerably. :-)) By this process of low to high mechanical train analysis, you should be able to locate and correct any mechanical abnormalities and aberrations. Keep us apprised of your progress, John. ....And, caution is a foremost concern...at least if it were I...for I have often jumped the gun, when I shouldn't have, and forced a machine, or two, to endure further dynamic deterioration as I tried to "fix" it by pushing too hard and too fast for a solution RIGHT NOW. As I slow down..."wisdom" seems to speed up...and while solutions take a helluva longer time to arrive at and effect, at least they become a workable effect and not just another cause of accelerated deterioration. Enjoy the process for what it is: the journey is the true joy--the destination is just the end. ------- Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:53:50 -0500 From: "j.guenther" Subject: RE: Re: Help needed wit 7" South Bend Shaper project. Art: It will be a while before I get the thing back together enough to tell what the real cause of the damage is. I do know that the bull gear shank has been "messed with" by some previous owner since the "eccentric" that advances the table was not fastened on with a taper pin but two roll pins, one from each side and the hole for these pins does NOT go completely through the shank. As I said, the bull gear has been replaced with a steel one which I believe was shop made at some time. The bull gear hub has been off the bull gear shank and has an additional place for the locking pin drilled in it. The shaper is completely disassembled at this time for cleaning and painting as part of the restoration process. I hope to have it running by the end of the year. This is basically a nice shaper, almost complete and I don't think used very much, just abused at some point. I plan on all new bushings, and a total cleanup and repaint. I am also looking for a source for Phenolic to make a new bull gear unless I can find an original. I would really like to find an original bull gear, hub and shank to replace the parts I currently have. If you run up on these parts I would certainly be interested. John Guenther 'Ye Olde Pen Maker' Sterling, Virginia ------- Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 06:47:01 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Help needed wit 7" South Bend Shaper project.: Phenolite John--See Messages 1501, 1509, and 1516 in re "Phenolite C501" which is probably a correct phenolic laminate material from which to make a new bull gear: http://www.nvf.com/phenolite/sheets_fabric.htm If you cannot find a local source, or are unable to purchase directly from NVF, let me know and I'll see if I can get you some from the Houston source that Joe W. referenced previously. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 04:41:43 -0000 From: "Brian Sherwood " Subject: carriage way wear The top carriage way, the flat one, on my south bend shaper looks to have a little wear--looks like the whole carriage is dropping a few thou under the cutting stroke. I'm a-buzzin' with questions. Is this normal? Is it caused by a need to tighten the gib on the carriage bottom dovetail way? Do i need to take a few thousandths off the top rear surface of the table where the top gib bolts to, to close the gap? Or should I face a few thou off just the top half of the rear top gib? If the major wear is in the top gib itself can i just turn it around? Would it work as well to put a shim between the table body and the gib, and then an adjustable gib-strip between the gib and the flat way? I can't feel any shake...But I do see some play in the lower dovetail gib--is it actually that the elevating screw is taking out the play in the lower dovetail way in one direction, and the cutting stroke is rocking it the other way and there's nothing wrong with the top gib?. All the original frosting marks are visible inside the rocker arm so I figure it's a low-mileage shaper... My logic tells me to first adjust the lower dovetail gib, then scrape in the upper gib if needed and don't screw with the table itself. Am i on the right track? thanks in advance. lurch I don't want to screw it up by acting before I ask. ------- Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 07:34:06 -0000 From: "Art Volz " Subject: Re: carriage way wear Brian--Don't remove any metal from anything until you can truely ascertain that you have a problem and are able to actually locate it ...and then still don't remove any metal. First, do something for me...and others that may be following this dialogue...and use the correct Item Numbers and Parts Descriptions names as found mainly on page 35 of TM 9-3418-200-14 & P, February 1982. For example, I think I know what you mean by the word "carriage", but am unable to find it listed in the Parts List on page 35 of the TM. While you're re-locating your copy of the TM, here's some things to think about...and then do: --loosen the cross rail gib setscrew, elevate the cross rail with the table to the desired height, and then tighten this setscrew, locking the crossrail and table in elevation. This cross rail must be locked, like the knee on a manual horizontal/vertical mill, while shaping. Most perceived and actual table movement, while shaping, is caused by the cross rail not being locked. --the horizontal table gibs should be tightened so that the cross feed screw can just traverse the table while lubed with waylube. Tighten the table gib setscrews snug and then back off about 1/4 turn and tighten their setscrew nuts. You may need to experiment here to get it "just rite". --Also adjust the ram's gibs to minimize delection, both horizontally and vertically. If the ram slides too loosely it will affect the "clock" measurements below. --Now adjust the vertical table support shank so that, when a "clock" is attached to the ram, it measures the same at both the front and the rear of the table. This table support must be used to preclude the table from "cantilevering" down at the end of the cut. You may have to fiddle with the elevation mechanism too to get everything square. Once square insure everything is tite. --Now, see if you can still detect movement while shaping. You'll get more movement as you increase the metal removal rate: feed, speed and DOC, but, if you have done the above, it should be within limits. Also, don't use a motor with more HP than the SB was designed to handle...if you do you'll get more deflection under full load/MRR. --If are still getting movement, how much are you getting? What is the amount, by measurement, of the cut from front to rear? --There is a US Army specs document in "files" that lists required accuracies for shapers. I forget the file name (and I posted it), but it should be recognizable: if, after you look, you can't find it, I will. It contains best case accuracies--for new machines: don't expect better on a used machine. --If you still suspect horizontal wear on either the top horizontal slideway on the table or its associated top guide gib then measure the parts. Wear is measureable. How much...and where? Art (Houston) ------- Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 15:23:17 -0000 From: "Mathiscoosbay " Subject: 1905-6(?) Cincinatti 20 QUESTION The newest date on the "Patents" brass plate on the R side of this old girl is Dec 12, 1905, states "other applications pending", Cincinatti Shaper Co.... I'm posting a couple of new pics in the Folder "Cinci 20". There's a stud with adjusting nuts that require a spanner wrench to move them on the back L side of the main body of the machine, holds a piece of angled metal that looks like it might be a gib. Could anyone tell me for sure what this adjustment "thingie" is for? It looks like there is not any other way to even attach gibs that I can see on this machine, no screws along the sides of the ram way or anywhere else. How do I know when the gibs are set right anyway, this ram is so heavy I think it will be difficult to tell if there's any play no matter what (well...that's assuming I ever get it broke loose again in the first place)? How would you guys go about cleaning the rust off the ways before attempting to slide the ram? Thought about light scraping but afraid I might do more harm than good. Appreciate any help or suggestions you might have. Thanks! Tim ------- Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 18:55:25 -0000 From: "Art Volz " Subject: Re: 1905-6(?) Cincinatti 20 QUESTION Tim--I can't lay my hand on my Cinci manuals at the present, but mine are for much later shapers. Apparently your Cinci has tapered gibs which are adjusted linerally. Don't scrape anything until you can carefully break thru the rigor mortis that's keeping your ram in its death grip. You may wish to start by liberally applying rust penetrants and applying careful lite loving taps, here and there, with a horse hide mallet. Sometimes it takes a lot of loving to awaken a sleeping princess...sometime they just sleep....and sleep...and...never wakeup. Shopswarf Tom may have the manual that you need. Using keyword "shopswarf" search for one of his messages and then click onto his email moniker...and then whiz away to Kiwi Isle. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 18:55:29 -0000 From: "Brian Sherwood " Subject: Thank you Art V! [was:Re: carriage way wear] Ran home at lunch with manual in hand. Set all the gib setscrews just snug to where the drag became just perceptible. Took half a turn to a full turn out of all the table gib setscrews [item 42 p.35]. Took a turn and a half out of all the ram gib setscrews [items 85 p.32] --no wonder the thing was spewing oil. Took about 1/8 turn up on all the cross rail gib setscrews [item 12 p.35]. Tossed a bolt with a lead shot under the tip in for a temporary table support shank binding lever. Re-indexed the crossrail locking lever [item 16 et al p.35]--dunno if there's supposed to be two cross-holes 90 degrees apart [in item 17, p.35] or if the second cross-hole is an 'aftermarket accessory' but in either case it was set wrong--the knob hit the casting before it locked fully. No slop, no play, seems to run quieter and smoother. I'll go over it in depth and detail tonight. Thank you again, Art! ------- Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 19:21:15 -0000 From: "Art Volz " Subject: Thank you Art V! [was:Re: carriage way wear] Brian--Tremendous! Some times one gets lucky...especially with a hot, right off the press, copy of a Green Machine TM in hand. Now you need to fab a proper table support assembly. Consider making the table support bracket (44) of bronze softer than the cast iron that it slides on so that it wears and NOT the cast iron. The new ENCO catalogue has some bronze rounds. You might even want to consider a piece of their sintered bronze impregnated with lube oil. Additionally, do not neglect the brass shoe (46) as this is what grips/locks the table support shank (45). When you make the binding lever (47) ensure that the threaded portion cannot contact the shank unless the brass shoe is in place. This insures that the shank doesn't get all nicked up and unuseable with use. And, again...CONGRATS! Art (Houston) ------- Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 20:06:41 -0000 From: "Art Volz " Subject: Performance Characteristics & Alignment Tolerances (Was: Carriage, etc.) --- In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, n8as1x~xxa... wrote: > ART ....beautiful , archival post on shaper accuracy.....printing it out > for my 3 ring ,,,,have occasional used my little atlas over last 20 > years w/out consideration to many of these points.....may be the reason > my skill w/ a file keeps increasing! Doc--You're right. The document that Doc is referring to is the "file" in "Files" entitled "MilStdHydraulicShaper.pdf" which is the last Military Standard published by the Army on shapers and the latest shaper at that time was the hydraulic one: i.e. the Rockford like Ray E. has and is preparing to re-paint Chinese New Year Firecracker Red...and before the February 1st Chinese New Year. On page 11 of the Mil Std are two tables. Table II "Performance Characteristics states requirements for feed, speed, and depth of cut for these large shapers (not relevant to most of us) and a column entitled "Allowable Thickness Variation, Inches" which is relevant: rough cuts = 0.011 inches -- finish cuts = 0.002. Don't expect better with an old machine unless it has been totally rebuilt to OEM "Standard"...and even then.... Table III "Alignment Tolerances" is also relevant: tolerances of 0.001 inches in 12 inches except for rise and fall of table during horizontal travel of 0.0005 inches in 12 inches. These should be your goals for a "tite machine" in like new repair, but goals are not always achievable. Do not consider that your shaper should be able to achieve cutting accuracies of a modern CNC milling machines from Haas: it CAN'T. Just for a starter, I know of no shapers that ever had the roller bearing slideways that these modern highly accurate CNC mills have. If you can adjust your metal-on-metal friction slideways to get you "near" the tolerances and accuracies as in Table II and Table III, feel lucky, pat yourself on the back, kick open the fridge, and grab a cold long neck of Lone Star...the National Beer of Texas. (None of that Drewry's sewer gas here.) Now, what the heck is Table I--I need to go back and re-read the Mil Std? Art (Houston) ------- Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 01:58:47 -0000 From: "Chris " Subject: Success!! Hendey now working After too many welders refused to touch the broken feed rocker arm casting, I got a 3x4x5 block of 6061 and removed anything that didn't look like the original part. Five hours of playtime on Bridgeport and 13" South Bend resulted in a replacement that fit like a glove and works like a charm. Time will tell how well it will hold up but I'm keeping the original as a Kentucky blueprint. A little more tweaking and cleaning and I'll have this machine ready to make real parts. ------- Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 06:20:23 -0000 From: "markhubler" Subject: Vise repair question My shaper vise was used as drill press vise, by a former owner. There are a number of holes on the outside of the vise and on the inside. I am thinking about cleaning out the holes and filling them with JB weld. Is there a better way? The vise is not original and is no beauty queen, so I am not concerned about impacting the value of the shaper. ------- Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 11:23:31 +0000 From: mariol.vitalex~xxatt.net Subject: Re: Vise repair question Mark, If you have access to welding equipment (Oxy-acetylee,mig,stick) you could fill them with weld and re-machine flush. Keep in mind, though, the potential for warpage or distortion. Minimize the heat input (do one hole at a time and let it cool?) Good luck, Mario ------- Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 08:32:43 -0500 From: "J R Williams" Subject: Re: Vise repair question Mario: Welding on an old cast iron vise is asking for trouble unless the entire unit is brought up to a high temperature and there may be very hard spots in the weld even with slow cooling. I have used a Devon product for such "cover ups" Joe Williams ------- Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 21:05:36 EDT From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Vise repair question > Keep in mind, though,the potential for warpage or distortion. > Minimize the heat input (do one hole at a time and let it cool?) 75 amp on buzzbox ,3-4 sec. & dont make second pass till u can touch rhe first one & u can probably do the job cold ......u better be REAL good if using a torch even w/ pre heat......id be tempted to drill & tap for screw plug ,...leave a little pround & pound down , or just drive a plug in best wishes docn8as ------- Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 02:58:15 +0000 From: mariol.vitalex~xxatt.net Subject: Re: Vise repair question Oh my God, Joe!!! You're right! I don't know what I was thinking of, but I WASN"T thinking cast iron!?!?!?(I guess I was too busy thinking about going to NAMES!) I will say, however, that I have had very good luck SMAW (stick welding) cast iron if I pre-heat it...sit it on an electric hot plate ($2 at the local thrift store)until it gets to temp (too damned hot to touch!) weld, then leave it on the hot plate at temperature for a couple of hours, then shut off the hot plate, put a cardboard box over it and look at it in the morning. I saw docn8as' post and agree, if you stick weld one pass at a time and let cool, not putting a lot of weld metal down with each pass, you should be o.k. Thanks for waking me up Joe. mario ------- Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 23:55:56 -0000 From: "jaguarbud1" Subject: Need South Bend Oil Pump Help Need some help guys. I drained and cleaned the sump of my 7" SB and did some work that I'll post and boast about later. My problem is upon refilling the sump, my pump is not pumping. How do I get it to start pumping? Is there a way to prime it? Thanks in advance, Al ------- Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 11:57:38 -0000 From: "jaguarbud1" Subject: SB Pump, Bushings and Block I'm pleased to report that my oil pump is pumping again. It seems some time may have been needed for the oil to seep into the intake, along with running for about 10 minutes for the oil to show itself in all critical places. When the sump was empty, I noticed a number of chips that must have made their way in through the front opening in the casting (just below the tool slide). Has anyone else found it necessary to block this opening on their South Bends 7" while in operation? A repetitive thumping at the higher speeds prompted a partial tear down of my machine . I replaced both rocker arm shaft bushings, the rocker arm to ram block bushing, and the link to ram block bushing. Critical oil holes are drilled into the top of the rocker arm and ram block for lubrication of the shafts. This seems to require periodic manual lubrication. The real wear in my case seems to be at the sides of the rocker arm shoe, where there is some lost motion and the thumping may have been coming from. The oil tube for the shoe was misaligned away from the center travel of the ram. Three oil holes in the shoe allow oil to reach the inner sides of the rocker arm and shoe, and the shoe lock bushing, provided oil from the pump drops into the shoe tray. I'll need to make a new shoe for my machine. Anyone know if the shoe is bronze? Any problem with using fortal for the shoe? Anyone know what the clearance should be between the shoe and the rocker arm? I would like to get the correct spec for this before I begin. Thanks for your help, Al ------- Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 18:02:07 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Specs??? Re: SB Pump, Bushings and Block --- In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "jaguarbud1" wrote: > Anyone know what the clearance should be > between the shoe and the rocker arm? I would like to get the > correct spec for this before I begin. Al-- LeBlond now has all of the extant documents for the SB-7. (Do a Google search.) You'll have to check with their Service Department for any dimensional tolerance specs that they might have on this old machine. The SB-7 is not a very sophisticated machine. Probably the type tolerances between fitted parts as obtainable from one of the machinery handbooks for a "running" fit would suffice. The "Fortal" that you refer to--is it a graphite & plastic impregnated linen? It might have a tendency to pick up abrasive particles if it is rubbing all the time. Check your shoe with a magnet and scrape it a bit to see what color the base metal is. It might be iron. (Ask Rose at LeBlond.) Art (Houston) ------- Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 16:54:43 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Atlas Rachet Case: WOW! In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "Greg B" wrote: > Just thought I show everyone the rachet case I made to replace my old > broken one. Waddaya think? They're in "Greg's Rachet Case" > at Metal Shapers Pix Thanks, Greg B. Greg-- An exceptionally nice piece of work! Because the Atlas OEM housing was a diecast zinc alloy...and because of operator negligence and/or abuse in the distant past...many of these housings are damaged and are non-repairable. Now for a few questions: 1. Did you work from a parts drawing obtained from Clausing or just from measurements from your old housing? 2. What type of Aluminum did you use? 3. What type of CNC milling machine did you use? 4. Did you write the program in exportable G&M code? 5. How much are you going to sell these "hotcakes" for on eBay? :-) Art (Houston) ------- Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 18:23:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Greg Benedict Subject: Re: Re: Atlas Rachet Case: WOW! Art, in answer to your querries, 1. I took the damaged case that I had and made a sketch from it. Then I had my wife redraw it in CAD. The Missus is pretty cool. 2. I used 1.00" 6061-T6 plate. This seem to always be .025-.030 oversized so additional machining steps were not needed. And we have plenty of drop-offs in the scrap bin at work. 3. Run on a Fadal VMC 4020 after work. I'm lucky that the owner lets me do this sort of thing as long as I'm on my own time. 4. I've been machining for about fifteen years now, both CNC and conventional, but I'm just starting to learn to use the CADCAM packages at work. So truthfully, I couldn't tell you if the code was exportable or not. I stayed late at work for about a week using MasterCam Mill V8.1 to generate the program. I've just started learning the software, and without any help it takes awhile to figure out how it works. I might go back and figure out more efficient toolpaths but that remains to be seen. I've learned alot more about how to use MC since then. The rachet case was the first program I had written with MC and I now know more neat tricks to do with it to make more efficient toolpaths and cut cycle times. 5. As for trying to produce a few of these things to sell, I guess I'll have to think about it. There is a logistics problem in the fact I never know when the machine will be free after work, and since I have tons of other restoration projects going on, whether I have the time to make it worthwhile. Anyway, that's enough about CNC adventures. This is the Metal Shapers group after all and I'm afraid that my long discourse is boring some of you to catatonia. I'll post some pictures of my Atlas shaper when I get it finished. I'm down to reassembly time now. Thanks, Greg B. ------- Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 22:14:23 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Atlas Rachet Case: WOW! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Metal_Shapers_pix If you are not already a memeber of that group you will need to register for it too. It is an overflow for pictures from here. The ratchet case does look really nice... regards John ------- NOTE TO FILE: On 08 July 2003 Marty Escarcega started a thread on refinishing shapers and that expanded to other machines. For the benefit of all machinists, that conversation has been put into the text file Finish for Tools, which covers this general topic. ------- Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 18:17:08 -0700 From: "Marty Escarcega" Subject: Re: Digest Number 573 [7 inch South Bend question] > To remove the ram gib, after removing adjustment screws, is it > necessary to completely remove the ram before being able to remove the > gib for inspection and cleaning? TIA After just having done this, no, you remove the gib screws and gently tap out the gib. Nothing on the machine I worked on was holding it. To remove the ram, you have to reach inside under the castiron yoke (for a lack of better word) one end attaches to the ram and the other end pivots on the shaft. That yoke is set screwed to a flat on the shaft, loosen/remove the set screw and push the shaft out of the main casting, the yoke will drop so you can slide off the ram. Marty ------- Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 01:23:01 -0000 From: "don_kinzer" Subject: J-Line 8" refurbishing completed I have finished reassembling my Brodhead-Garrett J-Line 8" shaper (essentially the same as a Logan 8"). I have composed a web page with pictures of some of the damaged parts and their fabricated replacements as well as pictures of the finished product. http://www.kinzers.com/don/MachineTools/j-line_Shaper This machine has a significantly larger table than either the Atlas 7" or the South Bend 7". That together with the variable speed control and I think that this is going to be my favorite shaper of the three. Don Kinzer Portland, OR ------- Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 16:21:55 -0000 From: "don_kinzer" Subject: Re: J Line Shaper In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "Marty Escarcega" wrote: > Beautiful job on the restoration Don! Was the ram lever CNC cut? I need > one myself. Same thing, broken and brazed back together. How much did > that set you back and is there a possibility another could be made? The ram lever was laser cut. Since they already have the data entered, they can make another one for $35. If 5 were ordered, the price would be $22.50. Shipping from 97005 would be extra. I would guess that the shipping weight would be 5-7# per each. Note that the part is not ready to install but provides a good starting point. The following operations are required: - the slot needs to be milled out to the desired final size - the recess for the 24A-80088 crank pin washer needs to be milled - a disc about 11/16" thick needs to be attached to the lower end and then bored out for the Q14-00809 bearing. - a spacer/bushing needs to be added to the upper end which also needs to be drilled/tapped for the 17A-80061 stud. I didn't do any engineering calculations or stress analysis on this part. I simply copied the rough dimensions from the cast part on the assumption that a part made from HRS plate would be stronger than a similarly sized cast iron part. It's also heavier than the CI part. The drawing which I sent to the laser shop can be found here: http://www.kinzers.com/don/MachineTools/j-line_Shaper/lever_dwg.jpg Note that the drawing is incompletely dimensioned. I left it to the laser shop to determine the radii on the top end. They faxed back a proof drawing before the part was cut but I can't find it right now. If anyone wants one of these made, I'd be happy to place the order, pick up the parts and ship them out as a favor to group members. It would take a week, more or less, from order to pickup plus shipping transit time. Please email me directly (dkinzer at easystreet dot com) if you're interested. Don Kinzer ------- Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 20:33:20 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Weekends Effort I took a break from my steam launch engine project at the weekend to do a bit of work on the downfeed slide for the Alba 4S. (18") This has worked out so well that I thought I would take the time to describe what I have done. The problem was that someone in the dim and murky past had broken the dovetail corner off the slide. This was on the gibb stip side. About two inches was missing, off a slide which is about 11 inches long. They had shortened the gibb strip back so that the unsupported end was not sticking out. I wanted to do a repair that would look in keeping, preferably invisible once the part is painted. So I put the slide in the vertical mill and machined back the broken area to provide a flat seat for a new piece, with the end of the dovetail machined vertical. Since the break went below the level of the inside of the dovetail I took the cut as far back as the inside edge of the dovetail. It was about 3/16" deep at this point. The cutter left a radius at the inside corner. Since the cutter was 20mm, this radius is just over 3/8". I next made a block from continuous cast iron bar. This was machined on three adjacent faces, and the inside corner radiused to match the seat. This radius had to only go partway up the block, since the top had to butt against the end of the existing dovetail. I marked out the radius and then ground it freehand on the bench grinder. At this stage I tried the block in place with a little engineers blue. A bit of hand work with a scraper and small file on the machined seat gave a better fit, then I drilled and counterbored two holes for cap screws. These have to be carefully placed so that they don't break through into the dovetail area, and so the counterbore does not meet the outside edge. I degreased the parts and then screwed the block in place, bedding it in a little Locktite (tm) and also using this on the screws. Left it a while to set. The next part was machining the block back to match the existing surfaces. Fortunately the slide was within the capacity of the next smaller shaper, the Alba 1A (10") Actually the slide is about 11 inches, but the 1A will set to about that. I had just enough over run at each end. I had to take the felts off from the ram ways to provide clearance for the tools so she was a tight fit. I set everything up carefully with the dial gauge. The really critical part was machining the top of the block, since this slides on the ways on the end of the ram. I actually took a light skim of about 5 thou off the existing surface as well, since this was not in fact completely flat. This may have been a minor warp, or else a little wear. This cut also ensured that my new block was truely machined to the same surface. A vertical cut was then taken on the outside to match the block into the existing (machined) outside surface of the side. I was glad this was a machined surface rather than a possibly curved cast surface which would have been harder to blend to. The inside dovetail was not actually very critical, since the gibb strip goes on this side. I machined it until the tool was just witnessing on the existing dovetail. The angle of the dovetail took a little fiddling to match, according to my angle scale it is 54 degrees. The bottom surface was also skimmed until a witness was seen. (By this I mean that you could see that the tool was just touching, but not removing material) I did have to change the clamping arrangements before doing this cut, but this was able to be done by adding the new clamps before removing the old, so the alignment was not affected. The curved end of the slide was then reproduced on the block using the belt sander The other thing I did was carefully center pop and drill out two broken gibb screws. This worked well, and they cleaned up OK with the original size of tap, a quarter Whitworth. Next job will be to make a hole in the block for a gibb screw, and make a new gibb strip to replace the shortened one. But the tricky stuff is all done and once it is painted it won't even be possible to see that the repair has been done. I have seen bust corners like this fixed with braze, but since I didn't have the broken off piece I was going to have to machine a seat anyway, and it seemed to me that by avoiding heating I also avoid possible warps. It should be strong enough...it is held on with two 6mm cap screws and only suports one 1/4" whitworth gib screw. regards John ------- Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 22:26:29 +0000 From: Mick Collins Subject: Re: Reggie's Ersatz Clapper & Serial No. (Perfecto-5) "Art Volz" wrote: >Mick-- >--- In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, Mick Collins wrote: >> One thing puzzles me about your machine and that is the peculiar >> flimsy looking tool post. Is this a later addition? My machine is >> like those on Tony's site with the tool clamped in a 5/16" square hole >> broached through the block which has to be a better arrangement. >Apparently one of the previous owners clipped Reggie's original >clapper and replaced it with an ersatz one for slotting. The >replacement is made of a length of 1-inch square steel with a >horizontal holding hole of 3/8-inch diameter. A threaded 10-24 set >screw hole enters vertically from the clapper's bottom to secure the >3/8-inch tool bit holder, as seen in the PIX in the "Perfecto-5" >album at our PIX alternate site. That owner also drilled and tapped >two 10-24 set screw holes on both sides of the clapper box; set >screws tightened in these holes fit into mating holes in each side >of the ersatz clapper to prevent its movement when slotting with a >proper slotting length piece of 3/16 square HSS. Apparently the >last owner was using this tool holder for normal shaping as the 3/16 >tool bit depicted in the PIX is too long for internal slotting and >is ground on both of its ends for shaping operations. >I'll probably make a lantern stye tool post, as shown on the first >set of Perfecto-5 PIX (the manual one) in that same album, and a >clapper to match. Need to order a piece of 1-inch square >steel...sometime soon. Thanks for the explanation Art. Good luck with the lantern type post. >> Incidentally my machine is No 278.3 Is yours earlier or later? >Stamped on Reggie's ID Plate is " 838/3 \ ". Don't know what that means. Oh dear - nor do I. >Maybe I should also ask: "When was my Perfecto made? Does anyone >have a manual? I'll gladly reimburse...." :-) I wonder if it ever had a manual? Some of those old time tool makers had the attitude, "If you don't know how to use the tool, why did you buy it?". Some years ago I bought a pop rivetting tool, this did have an instruction card and I quote from the maintenance and repair section: "If the tool does not work it is probably dirty and dry. Cleaning and oiling of all parts including the jaws must be done regularly by the user. Do not ask your dealer or the factory to do it for you. If you are able to use the tool when it is in order, you are able to repair it when it is not in order." Cheers - Mick at Elstead, halfway between London and Portsmouth, UK and at:- http://www.sylvestris.btinternet.co.uk ------- Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 23:34:41 -0000 From: "Peter Verbree" Subject: Re: Reggie's Ersatz Clapper & Serial No. (Perfecto-5) Art: When you get to ordering the material for the clapper you should consider using cast iron. I suspect that the original would have been cast, as it is MUCH easier to scrape to fit. On my last Atlas 7b I had to replace the clapper holder(outer bit) as it had a large crack from some ham-fisted soul trying to tighten the fit by driving the taper pin in too tight. I made the part slightly undersize and scraped it to fit the clapper. The difference it made to the finish on the work was very dramatic. On my Alba I don't think you would get a sheet of paper between the two parts. I wonder if Mick could confirm if the original is cast or steel, and how good a fit the mfgr intended originally. Regards Pete ------- Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 05:38:50 -0000 From: "joe_sozanski" Subject: Re: Reggie's Ersatz Clapper & Serial No. (Perfecto-5) I've got a Perfecto manual, there is s spot where paint/finish wore off the clapper and it appears to be cast. I've got the lantern type tool post on it. Joe ------- Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 11:22:03 +0000 From: Mick Collins Subject: Re: Re: Reggie's Ersatz Clapper & Serial No. (Perfecto-5) Original is C/I. Unpainted. Width is 0.999" with no machining or scraping marks visible. Box width is 1.0005". With surfaces oily there is no discernable play at the tool tip. Is it possible that ordinary rolled steel bar might be undersized for this job? It certainly wouldn't allow any 'scraping to fit' in my box. Cheers - Mick ------- Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 21:42:35 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Reggie's Ersatz Clapper & Serial No. (Perfecto-5) Mick Collins wrote: > >Maybe I should also ask: "When was my Perfecto made? > >Does anyone have a manual? I'll gladly reimburse...." :-) Mick-- Of course--by my " :-) "--you knew that my questions above were made in jest. Those questions are only part of the litany of questions normally asked by new shaper owners...plus "what was its original paint color, how much does it weigh, does anyone have an original vise for sale, what size motor, how much is it worth, what kind of lube & where is the nearest Tractor Supply Company, where can I get parts...why is my spouse so b*tchy all of a sudden???" The Perfecto shaper may have had a manual as the Perfecto lathe had an Operators Manual & Threading Charts (Tony G., MP17 x~xx $18USD), but that was probably due primarily to show how to set up the change gears for thread cutting on the lathe. (English change gears appear to be in multiples of 5 teeth whereas US change gears are in even numbers of teeth--maybe this is not, though, a universal lathe "truth".) Tony also has 20 pages of Perfecto sales literature- -shapers, lathes, etc.--for $24 USD. All I have is Ian Bradley's "The Shaping Machine" and several c. 1970's catalogs from Caldwell Industries, Luling, Texas. As you also stated, Mick, old time users were expected to know how to correctly and safely operate the tools they bought; today the main reason for manuals are to protect the manufacturers from tort liability suits due to misuse of their products by ignorant users. The Perfecto shaper, with exposed gears, flapping links, unprotected belting, and ramming ram, would appear as a delicious feast to ravenous gaggles of predatory shysters. Heck, our fearless elected "leaders" would be wont to attempt their ban as those "Insidious Saturday Nite Shapers"...and, if only partially successful, would declare "Mission Accomplished!!!" A Perfecto style shaper couldn't be sold new today in the US of A unless the manufacturer had very "deep pockets"...and enjoyed feeding bags of Jeffersons into court house square parking meters. Art (A rainy afternoon...bayous a'rising...in Houston North.) ------- Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 21:03:38 -0000 From: "stevenson_engineers" Subject: Re: elliot 14m shaper > I have just purchased an Elliot 14m to replace my Elliot 14s shaper. > The 14m has some missing oiling wicks, what are they made of and > where can I get them. Pipe cleaners make a good cheap alternative. John S. ------- Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 22:18:15 -0000 From: "kc1fp" Subject: Re: elliot 14m shaper Oil wicks are made from hard white felt in rope and strip. McMasters has SAE grade F1 felt and F3 felt. The F3 is grey. Both of these are suitable. JP ------- NOTE TO FILE: A discussion of oiling wicks elsewhere suggested the use of portions of thick sport-style shoelace. See Lubricants General. ------- Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 14:20:12 -0000 From: "bob_quale" Subject: steptoe clutch My step toe shaper has a clutch that is glazed over, it is kind of like the brake shoes in a car. If I take a deep cut, the clutch slips and stalls the machine. Any ideas on a repair? I tried sanding them down but no luck, it still doesn't grab well. I wonder how tight the fingers should be? Bob ------- Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 09:00:34 -0800 From: "larry g" Subject: Re: steptoe clutch Bob: Have you considered having them relined. Most major cities have brake relining outfits that stock brake linings in many sizes. Be aware that lining materials come in many varieties so have a discussion with the relined to get the best material for your application. I'm assuming that you have a 2 shoe clutch that works inside a bell, or brake drum looking item. If so then consider having the drum turned also. If it is a multi disc flat plate type clutch then you may have to go the industrial route. I know that the flat plate clutch in my Sheldon looks a lot like the PTO clutch in my Oliver Tractor. lg ------- Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 11:13:05 -0600 From: "J. R. Williams" Subject: Re: steptoe clutch Bob, Consider drilling out the rivets that hold the lining in place and installing a shim under the lining. The small shaper is not a very hard clutch service. Joe W ------- Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 21:30:26 -0600 From: "J. R. Williams" Subject: Re: Re: steptoe clutch Bob, is the clutch a drum or a flat face? Try "brake lining." For light service woven belt material would work. JRW ------- Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 04:04:45 -0000 From: "xtrucker_1999" Subject: Re: steptoe clutch try bead blasting lightly. it will take the glaze off and drive the resin back down. works on car clutches. dt ------- Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 18:04:12 -0000 From: "kc1fp" Subject: Re: steptoe clutch Try someplace around you that deal with old tractors, they usually have someone that relines clutches and brakes. Maibac tractor in Iowa is one. JP ------- Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 20:03:11 -0600 From: "Harprit Sandhu" Subject: S7 Ratchet case. vise, tool holder etc. progress. To all who have been waiting for me to get done. Here is the status to date. I'll keep it short. Did all the drawings Got quotes!!!!! To many $$$ to program them Too many $$$ to set up each part Too many $$$ for each part in our kind of quantities. People with CNC machines think they have the world by the a----. The hell they do, not while guys like me still breathe. Enter the dragon..... Made pattern for all the castings!!!! For the ratchet case For the entire vise and base, all parts For the clapper and its yolk For the tool slide parts For a new tricky design to replace the table so vise can be mounted in vertical plane. Had to do some of the stuff three times before I got it right!! Designed the ratchet case so that it will accomodate S7 ratchet as is and a new ratchet that I have designed, that is much better and works about 10 times better and is easier to make.. Take your pick. Buiilt one to make sure it works. It does a great job. Did drawing. Went to Ohio (250 miles one way). Talked to the foundryman. Eyeball to eyeball. Showed him what I had and what I wanted. He said "Fine, no problem" Then he said "You came all that way just for this?" I said "It was important". He laughed. I laughed. Patterns go to him on Friday. Casting in my hands soon. Get your requests in so I can ask for the right quantities. (I will do other three misc aluminum case etc parts that I need soon. Sorry!) Phew!! So what have you done in the last few days???? (Sometimes, I can barely stand myself.) Thanks/Regards Harprit Singh Sandhu ------- NOTE TO FILE: John had been talking about the acquisition of yet another Alba shaper in a thread "New Shaper...Assembled" which was put into the Shaper History and Stories file. On 10 Jan 2004 he asked for advice on repairing a bracket and received a lot of good brazing and welding advice. See that file for some really helpful repair methods. ------- Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 09:20:53 -0600 From: "Mario L Vitale" Subject: Re: Re: Lewis Table Support? [IF NONE IS ON THE MACHINE ACQUIRED] The photo in the Lewis folder showing the table support is nice (although, if the only thing maintaining the height setting is what appears to be a set screw, it might not be ideal), however, I don't think it is an original Lewis support. In fact, as far as I know there was no original Lewis support..at least not according to the 1942 Lewis catalog. Since these machines were supplied as kits (raw castings or semi-finished) I suppose they thought the builder would be capable of fabricating their own. In some old posts there was lots of discussion of simple but effective designs, one being very similar to the photo mentioned except that the horizontal member supporting the table had a threaded hole and the vertical support was a large diameter threaded rod. Oh yes, I would recommend not permanently attaching the horizontal member to the table if you want to retain the original Lewis configuration. Mario ------- Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 21:13:34 -0000 From: "cdmacmanus" Subject: Atlas pinion/jack shafts I am currently working to refurbish an old Atlas 7" and have hit a snag. Both the pinion shaft and the jackshaft have heavy wear (almost 0.020") in the spots where the roller bearings bear on the shafts. I feel the "slop" in the shafts is unacceptable but don't know how to go about fixing it. Replace the bearings (if available!) or replace the shafts? Has anyone out there run into this problem? Thank you in advance! ------- Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 20:08:16 -0600 From: "J. R. Williams" Subject: Re: Atlas pinion/jack shafts Remove the old shafts and replace with new machined ones and new bearings. Far less work and problems compared to building up the old shafts and re-machining them back to size. I have welded worn areas on shafts using aluminum bronze and machining back to size. Too much work. Joe W ------- Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 18:51:18 -0000 From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: Re: Moarch schematics (Note: Fred is referring to http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox which is a wonderous storgage area for machine tool PIX, docs, you name it. Some Monarch 10ee schematics--both current year files and retired files--are there.) Fred-- As for parts for the AMMCO, there are no hidden warehouses secreted anywhere--not even amongst the HUGE stockpiles of "known" (by the "four nincompoops") WMD buried throughout the hinterlands of Eye-Rock. Most parts, other than the phenolic spiral toothed bull gear, can be readily fabricated --some just take more time, thought, and effort to effect. To find an original vise for any of the small shapers is difficult and is measured in years. Read my Msg last week "The Quest" about how it took me 4 years to find one for my Lewis...the only reason that I found one was due to good friends and good fortune helping me...and dedicted persistence on my part. There is a relatively good solution currently available at $199: the Palmgren swivel base 3-1/2 jawed Model 325B (Travers Tool); I have one thzt I sniped off of eBay at $125 NIB currently residing on my Benchmaster horizontal. Another solution, other than persistently monitoring the offerings on eBay, is to make the AMMCO vise for which complete dimensioned drawings are available here in "files". You will need to download and install the free eDrawing reader to view and print out these sheets. (If you have a problem back-channel me.) Yet another way is to find (yeah, sure!!) an Atlas shaper vise or a South Bend one for temporary (UN-MODIFIED) AMMCO use. These go "generally" for about $175 on eBay--an Atlas vise, however, just sold for $258. Vises are often costlier to purchase than the machine tool itself. There is another solution, but it isn't done yet, maybe this spring after Mario is done traipsing about the universe. Both Mario and I are exploring methodology (process engineering) for easy and cheap vise fabrication. Some of our initial self-imposed engineering design constraints are: --minimal machining: drill press with el cheapo X-Y table, lathe, and shaper (of course). --off-the-shelf metal stock cut to length (as ordered); finish machining of ends via shaper. (see: Metal Mart/Metal Express--just one handling fee per a complete order. These guys are so fast it's unbelievable and the stuff is pre-cut to length: ie the cost for 12 inches of something is the same price as the same piece cut into 12 smaller 1-inch lengths.) --off-the-shelf fasteners. --off-the-shelf screws, with simple modification. --pinned construction (in shear w/hardened off-the-shelf dowel pins). ----fixed in place with: ------Silver-soldering (90,000psi tensile). and/or: ------Hardened alloy steel fasteners (off-the-shelf) --vises are designed for hobbiest use in making one-off parts and NOT for industrial use that requires quick change of work capabilty. --all will be painted purple with pink pin striping. :-) Art (Houston: gotta run...as you get older, you can't fool nature as long as you used to be able to do. :-)) ------- Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 01:04:38 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Ammco vice Art is certainly right about the lack of parts for the AMMCO, but that won't be a problem apart from the gear. On the vice, the fabrication idea is quite workable, and in fact if you check out Artz drawings you will see that this one is just about ideal to fabricate since it is pretty "blocky" as it stands. So a nicely fabricated one will not look significantly different to a real one. Not like the ones with fancy curves. (My Alba one has a kind of dish around it for chips to collect in...kind of hard to machine from solid...) Another thought would be to make up the patterns and get castings made, if of course you have a foundry available. I have done this for the vice and for the dividing attachment. I only got them cast in ordinary grey iron, I should have got the vice done in spheroidal graphite iron but didn't think of it. But actually the iron will be OK for amateur use anyway. I even have a spare set of castings for each, but you probably wouldn't want to pay postage from New Zealand. regards John ------- Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 19:15:02 -0000 From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: Where Can I Find...???? In BurkeMillsx~xxyahoogroups.com, "blackcrowforge" wrote: > I have a Burke #4 Model B. Could any of you kind souls steer me in > the right direction to getting a new arbor for it? Thanks! > Jeff Higgins, New Hampshire, USA This is a reply that I posted to a message at the Burke Mills Yahoo group to an individual looking for an arbor for his machine. Much of my response is germaine to similar often asked questions at this group, such as: --Where can I find a swivel base vise...for my 1890...?? --Where can I find an adjustable Colton No.2 (Keystone) tool holder?? --Anyone know of a source of spare parts for my...Krakowski...?? --- In BurkeMillsx~xxyahoogroups.com, volzmechatronicx~xxy... wrote: >>>Jeff -- There are only five sources for Burke arbors: 1--Turn your own. Recommend 12L14 as it machines easily. 2--eBay. Some days you get lucky...and your daily diligence pays off. I looked for an arbor for my Benchmaster horizontal for 2 years B4 one showed up on eBay and I won it at the very last second-- BANG!!!--for $125. I consider myself fortunate as it was NOS and relatively cheap...as arbors go. Source 3 pointed me to it on eBay. 3--Friends on the net who know you're looking for something and add their eyeballs to your Quest. I got a short arbor for my Benchmaster this way: out of the blue. 4--New manufacture from D.C. Morrison. May be quite pricey--you'll have to ask. Brace yourself B4 you read their reply: a down-the- hatch triple shot of J.W. Dant sour mash 100 octane is appropriate. 5--The best way is to get your tooling--arbors, etc--when you buy your Burke mill itself. If you didn't (or don't), go to the top of this page and start at No. 1. :-) Good luck! Enjoy the Quest. <<< If you're into old machines, no longer made and no longer supported, maybe some of the "sources" I discussed will work for you too. But, nothing is "overnite" or even by "the end of next week". With old machines lengthy Quests and brew-your-owns are the norm. Enjoy the Quests, they're often the most fun: it's the journey, NOT the destination. Good hunting! Art (Houston) ------- Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 21:15:21 -0000 From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: Wiper Felt: Re: South Bend Shaper help > I am working on my south bend shaper and am wondering what others > use to replace the wiper felts? Mark Stuart Mark--I use F-11 grade gray felt, 3/16 inch thick, obtainable from http://www.mcmaster.com for wipers on my Lewis-10...and on my c.1941 Logan/Monkey-Ward 10 x 24. It is # 87985K2 . Logan Actuator offers pre-cut kits of this type felt for those with Logan shapers (see URL at "Links" here.) Art (Houston) ------- Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 22:47:03 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Wiper Felt: Re: South Bend Shaper help I have to admit to some gentle amusement at the idea of mail ordering felt from a machine tool supplier. I bet the craft shop down at the mall has a range of thicknesses, and colours too. You could also try the pet shop...my wife works in one and brought home a couple of circles of grey felt about five inches diameter and maybe a quarter thick. They sell them for the cage birds to lay their eggs on. Quite cheap too. regards John. (From the home of 60 million sheep....) ------- Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 20:07:19 -0000 From: "Peter Verbree" Subject: More planer progress I have just posted some more planer pictures on the shapeaholic site. I have posted several pictures sent to me by Mr. John Stubbe, of Oregon. John has a post 1870 P&W planer still in use in a part-time job shop. GO JOHN!! I have also posted a couple of pic's of the "new" cross feed ratchet I built for my planer. Details of this mechanism were supplied by John. Only one mystery left to solve and she should come back to life! http://www.angelfire.com/sc3/shapeaholic/Planer.html Cheers Pete ------- Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2004 23:54:11 -0000 From: "kc5ezc" [atlas_craftsman group] Subject: Re: Headless Dog Point Set Screws I needed some 1/4x28x1" slotted head, full dog point set screws for my Atlas 7B shaper. Finally had to make some. I can't find them anywhere. Lots of socket head set screws, but that is not what I wanted. I looked in trevers, victor machine, J&L, MSC, ENCO, wholesale tools, and various screw products makers and sellers. They are probaably out there, but it was quicker to make them. Get a piece of 1/4 28 rod, a lathe, and a file and go for it! John Burchett in Ada OK ------- Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 04:39:25 -0000 From: "Patrick Mullarky" Subject: Help with disassembly - SB 7 SHaper I have finally started restoring a South Bend 7" Shaper I acquired last year. I have run across three disassembly problems: the cross-slide, oil pump, and the bull gear. I want to completely disassemble the shaper for painting because the original paint has completely deteriorated. Even with the cross-slide gib removed, the cross-slide doesn't come out nearly far enough to come off the elevating screw's pin. How do I remove the elevating screw? The Army Manual drawings are quite vague. Does it all come apart from the bottom? Second problem: how are the two oil pump-tube bosses near the ram ways removed from the casting? They look like they are simply force- fit...but I don't want to destroy them...the oil pump is barely working and needs fixin'. And, third, how does the bull gear (phenolic) come off the bull gear shaft ? I have studied it quite carefully, and I cannot see how to do it. The phenolic is quite soft, and I'm afraid of damaging it... I removed the cap screws and flathead screws on the stroke plate thinking there might be a nut on the bull gear shaft underneath... but the stroke plate will NOT come off! (At least not willingly!) I'm hoping some of you who have restored SB Shapers can help me out or point me in the right direction! -Patrick- ------- Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 00:08:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Patrick OBrien Subject: Re: Help with disassembly - SB 7 SHaper 1. The cross slide must be lifted off. Remove the vise. remove the two bolts inside the table that hold the table and the bronze cross slide nut together. dont drop table. In the lower pivot shaft you will find a setscrew holding the pivot shaft and arm together. It's a square head under the shaft remove setscrew. Drive out shaft. Remove shaper head and pivot arm. raise crossslide with elevation screw and lift off cross slide. (I think. Its been a long time.) 2. I have no idea. 3.DONT PRY THE GEAR OFF!!!!!!! gently drive out the tapered pin holding the cross slide power feed adjusting wheel out. Remove the wheel. Push the shaft and bull gear into the body far enough to get small wood blocks between the back side of the bull gear and the inside of the shaper body. (two blocks please) Gently tap shaft out of bull gear. Lift out gear, Push out shaft! 4. Be careful, this is recited from memory. ------- Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 08:07:20 -0000 From: "John Rouche" Subject: Logan 7" clean-up Posted some new pictures of the cleaning of my Logan 7" if interested. They are in the Metal_Shapers_Pix group under the "John's Logan" folder. Thanks, John. ------- Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 00:16:17 -0000 From: "kowallrb" Subject: Re: Sources I recently contacted South Bend Lathe about repair parts for a South Bend 7" shaper. They referd me to a gentleman by the name of Ted Pflugner. He has a VERY GOOD supply of parts for the South Bend shaper and supplied me with a complete (brand new/never used) tool slide and clapper box. Contact him at "latheman2x~xxaol.com". Reid ------- Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 22:14:22 -0000 From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: Re: late model G&E "Tommy Ward" wrote: > Looks like someone got a very nice machine. > Price probably justified by condition. Shame it was so far away - > been kinda of nice to acquire a "plug & play" piece of equipment > for once. TW It is a very nice looking late (c. 1973) middle size shaper with a lot of bells and whistles. The weight and price are both hefty--hope the buyer knows how get it home on the cheap: 4500 lbs is more than I could handle. All of my machines I've had to partially dissassemble and lug 'em home in the back of my Quest, and then one-man wrestle them into position and reassemble. The hardest one to do was my c. 1941 Logan/Monkey-Ward 10 x 24 lathe. It stayed in the backend of the Quest for a month while I tried to think like an Egyptian. I finally used pieces of 2 x 4's and levers and...one heck of a lot of strained to the max arm-strong power...but, I managed to get it in, reassemble it, and get it up and running. I won't buy a basket case machine. It has to be sound and operatable. Accessories, tooling, vises, vise handles, speed reducers, are usually needed, so none of mine--except for the lathe and the Lewis shaper--ran "out of the van"--but I'm getting there. Still have to get a phase converter for the Dayton motor/speed- reducer combo for the Rusnok/Benchmaster mill, and a 4PDT toggle switch for the Rusnok motor...but, then that one's done. The Lewis shaper needs an adaptor plate installed on the table on which to mount the OEM Lewis vise--a 1/2 inch piece of aluminum plate is enroute; will also experiment with mounting my Logan 5AS-7 shaper vise to the plate as well, as it opens wider and is lower in height. Still have to mount the older variable speed treadmill motor to the Perfecto-5 (but I finally thunk out the how-to), mount the new lantern tool post that I made for it, braze the smaller (3/16 square bit) adjustable tool holder that I also made, and finish mounting the Burke 3-1/2 inch plain vise to the table. Have to mount a vise--or build one--to the manual traversing head 5-inch British shaper as well. The Lewis horizontal mill finally has a motor to hook up to the OEM jackshaft--that 1/2 HP 1140 rpm motor has been in the back of my van since I picked it up in January at Tractor Supply Co. while driving back to Houston from Austin. It will probably be done last-- now that the dual capability Benchmaster/Rusnok combo is almost up-- since I have to go back and replace the felt seals on the spindle ball bearings: they've been in there since Burton built it in 1947. And last, but not least, is the sloooooooow restoration of my ancient Barnes 4-1/2...back to the original foot cranking velocipede as it was born back about 1890. But, you're right--to be able to run one machine (I was lucky with the Logan/MW lathe and the Lewis shaper (except for the right vise)-- right out of the box, with all of the accessories and tooling and motorized drive, would indeed be nice. But, then, where's the fun? Four pieces came in the mail today: 4 square hole wrenches, 3 of them 8-pt Armstrongs. Even when you "win" a vise, they never seem to have the square wrench that they need. Today, a few more vises have wrenches (as does now my lantern tool post on the Lewis shaper) for I got a 5/16, a 3/8, a 7/16, and a 9/16. Getting there! And getting ready to roll out a new prototype wheellock lock of my own internal design. Won the "How to Build Your Own Wheellock Rifle or Pistol" book today as well. Been looking for one of those for ever it seems. When you're winning...you're on a roll. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 16:50:16 -0500 From: "Scott S. Logan" Subject: RE: Logan shaper belts, What size are they? Motor Belt - 4L400 Main Belt - 4L460 -- Scott S. Logan, Vice President Tel +1 (815) 943-9500 Logan Actuator Co. Fax +1 (815) 943-6755 550 Chippewa Rd Email sslx~xxlathe.com Harvard IL 60033-2372 USA Web http://www.lathe.com ------- Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 16:02:43 -0000 From: "Don Kinzer" Subject: Re: J-Line shaper "hoff7133" wrote: > I have a line on an 8" J-Line for pretty cheap and it is nearby. > It needs a belt cover and some parts to the table feed. I have a J-Line shaper also which required some replacement part fabrication during renovation. I have a few pictures on a web page at: http://www.kinzers.com/don/MachineTools/j-line_Shaper If you can't find a manual, you can buy a reprinted manual (operating instructions and parts list) from Logan Actuator. The manual is specifically for the Logan 8" but it is almost identical to the Brodhead-Garrett J-Line 8". Here is a link to buy the manual on-line: http://lathe.safeshopper.com/2/365.htm?957 If you browse around that site, you'll find that you can also buy a complete set of prints for the machine for $100. ------- Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 20:30:22 -0000 From: "Irby Jones" Subject: Logan 8 table & ram alignment Hi all, has anyone measured how parallel the top table surface is to the ram travel on a Logan 8 (or anything else for that matter)? I wanted to replane an old vise that is pretty chewed up, and have to mount the vise directly on the logan's table. To make sure I would cut the vise surface parallel to its base, I clamped an indicator to the front face of the ram and measured how parallel the table top was to the ram axis of travel by sweeping the indicator across the table front-to-back as I moved the ram. The table was high in the front by .002", and measured that way anywhere along the width. I figured the old varnish-like oil film on the ways may be causing this, so I'm in the process of tearing it all apart and giving it a good cleaning, which it needed anyway. The table ways look like they've hardly been used. I can't see any wear at all on the gibs or the ways. The ram ways in the base seem to be worn a few thousandths, but evenly front-to-back as far as I can tell. There's a definite ridge. The ram itself doesn't show any ridges, but it bears over the full width of the ways, so that probably doesn't mean anything. I put a straightedge up to the ram ways and don't see any gap in the middle, so maybe they are not worn unevenly. BUT when I put a square against the ram ways and the vertical slide ways, they are not 90 degrees. There's a definite gap between the square and the top of the vertical ways. I haven't measured the gap, but I can clearly see one. It's the same on both sides, and it's the same whether I use the worn or unworn areas of the ram ways. It seems like the surfaces were cut that way. And that would make the table top surface higher in the front, as I've measured. Now the question is - were the sliding surfaces cut that way on purpose to account for a drop of the table front with wear? I have read that good practice is to set up a machine so it "wears more accurate". And if wear on the table sliding surfaces would cause the front to drop, then possibly the Logan folks set the front higher to start with. Is this a far out thought? I guess Scott could answer this. Or was this machine recut somewhere in its life, and they didn't get it true? Anyone have any thoughts? Or is a .002" error in 8" OK after all, and I'm just being too picky? Thanks, Irby in VA ------- Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 22:49:22 -0000 From: "al_messer" Subject: Re: Logan 8 table & ram alignment Well now, Irby, I would say that .002" is O.K. for what I use a shaper, reducing "junk" that I have scrounged down to a usable size and shape, usually for further machining. If your needs are more precise that this, you may have to consider a surface grinder or a face mill. Al Messer ------- Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 14:32:21 -0800 From: John A. Landry Subject: Re: Logan 8 table & ram alignment On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 20:30:22 -0000, Irby Jones said: >Or is a .002" error in 8" OK after all, and I'm just being too picky? Irby, maybe others won't agree, but with these old machines of unknown usage and wear, I think 0.002" accuracy is pretty darn respectable. Now that's not to say you shouldn't pursue ways to make it more accurate mind you, but don't set your expectations too high and then get disappointed and frustrated when it won't hold sub 0.001" tolerances. I have a WWII era 7" Porter-Cable shaper that I found varied a few thousandths between the ram head and table when traversing the table from side to side. The error was the same either direction of traverse... the trailing side of the table would be a few thousandths higher than the leading edge. I figured out the table gibs were apparently a little loose and the table would tilt a little when being "dragged" on the properly lubricated support leg. Careful snugging up the table gibs eliminated most of it without making the table too stiff to move properly. That was one accuracy problem eliminated. Now as for ram "droop" (which causes the ram head to be closer to the front of the table), if you can't adjust it out by means of the table gibs (using shims) and/or the ram gibs, one work around you may want to consider is this (which is what I did)... Make a new table surface which measures true to the ram travel! I used a 7" x 7" piece of 1" thick 6061-T6 aluminum plate I found laying around at a local metal dealer, but there's no reason it has to be that thick of course... probably 1/4" on up would work just fine. The plate goes on top of the table and under your vise of course. Use the shaper itself to shave off a thin layer off the aluminum plate. Of course the plate will need to be fastened to the table top from underneath or the sides before you can do this. You can even use recessed Allen head set screws from the top if the plate is thick enough... which is what I did. Once you shave off a thin layer from the plate, the plate (now table top) will be perfectly true to the ram travel. Then you'll have to deal with the old vise and it's problems. :) Good luck and best regards, John L. Shoreline, WA ------- Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 23:31:22 -0000 From: "Irby Jones" Subject: Re: Logan 8 table & ram alignment > Make a new table surface which measures true to the ram travel! That's the first thing I thought of, and may end up doing. It's certainly easier than trying to redo the existing ways to get them more perpendicular! At any rate, I thought I'd ask you folks if it was supposed to be this way, and if I'm being too picky. I've never noticed it until I wanted to cut that old vise "exactly" flat to its base. BTW, it's a different vise than the one with my logan. The Logan vise is fine. Thanks for the input, all of you. Irby ------- Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:07:21 -0800 From: "larry g" Subject: Re: Logan 8 table & ram alignment Irby, I think that you answered your own question when you measured the angle between the ram ways and the table ways. They are not square! Now as to where the problem lies me thinks you have to do a bit more checking. Can you check if the table top is 90 degrees to the vertical ways it rides on? If it is it's ok, and I would expect it to be as it moves very little on those ways. I would suspect that the ram is worn and drooping as it has traveled many more strokes that the table has. What I think I would do is place a parallel on the table top, shim it up .002" near the column and then indicate the top of the parallel. If you now get an even reading you can be confident that the ram is traveling in a straight line and has not worn so that the tool is traveling in an arc. If the ram is traveling a straight line then by all means install an additional plate on the top of the table and plane it off so that it matches the line that the ram travels. If the ram is traveling in an arc then I do not believe that an additional table top will help as what you affix to it will bow and when released will no longer be flat. lg ------- Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 00:14:24 -0000 From: "Geoff Kingma" Subject: Re: Logan 8 table & ram alignment I have just about completed a total overhaul of my 6" Ammco and I found the same error between the ram ways and the vertical ways. They were not even perpendicular to the base. I used a friend's milling machine to redo the ram and ways on the body as there was quite a bit of wear on the 60 degree part of the main frame ways (0.012" wider at the front). After pondering for half an hour or so re the vertical "error" and how to machine it, I realized that it wasn't important since one fixes the cross slide for each job and adjusts the feed by means of the "top slide". As long as the table is true (by skimming it) I don't think there is a problem. Perhaps those with more insight might have a comment re this. It would be interesting to see the original manufacturing drawings because I can't see how there could be such a big tolerance - Did we just get a "Monday" machine? Regards, Geoff ------- Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 00:57:22 EST From: jmartin957x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Logan 8 table & ram alignment Irby, before you undertake any corrections, I think I'd see how it cuts first. Cutting metal puts a lot more pressure on the ways and gibs than sweeping an indicator does, and you may find that the table was deliberately made a bit high in front to counteract any flex in cutting. I could very well be wrong. I do know, though, how I'd feel if I scraped the ways or table into perfect alignment and then found that it left a workpiece thicker at the front. John Martin ------- Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 13:16:32 -0000 From: "eng4turns" Subject: To Harden or Not to Harden? Here's a question for the group: I made a new ratchet pawl for my Porter- Cable AS-7 last night. The original was bent and while it didn't affect performance, it offended the eye. Anyway, made a new one out of W-1 drill rod and filed new tip profiles. The ratchet wheel itself shows very little wear but the old pawl had some pretty good wear on it. So, should I harden the new pawl? My gut tells me "no". It is far easier to make a new pawl than a new ratchet wheel. What's your opinion? Ed in Florida ------- Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 07:29:43 -0600 From: "Mario L Vitale" Subject: Re: To Harden or Not to Harden? Ed, I'd say you have a very sensible gut. Mario ------- Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 19:37:52 -0000 From: "eng4turns" Subject: Re: To Harden or Not to Harden? > I totally agee with Mario. Let the easiest and cheapest part to > replace, the pawl, be the sacrificial member of the pair. That you > can readily make a replacement for the pawl is evident; making a > replacement for a worn out toothed ratchet wheel would be much more > difficult. A different question, but of the same theme. If you needed to > replace the ratchet wheel on your PC-7, is there an off-the-shelf > standard gear that could be utilized such as one of those offered by > http://www.mcmaster.com ? Would a gear, with involute geometry > shaped teeth, even work as a ratchet wheel? Art (Houston) Art and Mario; Thanks for the excellent feedback. Art, you remind me of a good teacher I had once. He'd answer my question and then pose me two. The existing original ratchet wheel has extremely shallow (didn't measure but probably not more than 50 thou deep) square notches. It doesn't look to me like a commercial gear of any kind would work without completely changing the profile of the teeth. I think the square shape of the ratchet tooth is important to the pawl being able to catch the lip of the tooth squarely (I filed the pawl with a little undercut.) Any angle on the pawl or tooth will tend to push it up out of the notch against the spring pressure, just like what happens on the back stroke. The sear of the pawl is only about 50 thou deep, approximately matching the depth of the ratchet wheel notch. The ratchet wheel doesn't look difficult to make. I've made gears and I could probably make a new ratchet wheel but I'd make it out of drill rod/ tool steel and harden it, then stone it. In a pinch, with no precision divider capability, it looks to me like you could make one with a file and a paper-based divider circle on the perimeter of the blank. You might lose some precision on the lead screw advance because each "click" of the advance would vary by any differences in the width of the teeth and/or the notch spacing. How important is that for most shaper operations? I'd say not too much but I'm no shaper expert. So, while you could probably modify a hardened commercial gear to work, it looks to me like it would be easier to make a new ratchet. By the way, it took me three hours to make the pawl from a blank piece of 3/8" drill rod including filing and stoning the ramp and sear. There might have been a long neck or two in there somewheres. A new ratchet wheel from blank stock, start to finish, hardened & stoned, would probably be six to eight hours using a divider. The only critical element of the pawl is the engagement sear and the camming ramp on the backside. The ratchet wheel has several critical components/features: Concentricity between Major and Minor diameters of the notches/teeth and the shaft center, shape and spacing of the teeth, location and taper of the #3 taper pin hole that connect the wheel to the ACME lead screw and finally the hardening which could easily distort such small teeth. So, I will not harden the pawl. Thanks again. Ed in Florida ------- Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 15:30:06 -0800 From: John A. Landry Subject: Re: What filter & where to find it for my 14" Steptoe On 30 Mar 2005 Mark Long said: >The old one has p48 marked on it. >Hoping the "P" might mean Purolator? Here is a pic of the filter: >"http://members2.boo.net/~marklong/Steptoe2/filter2.jpg" >Can anyone point me toward a source? Purolator's web >site is no help. Shows only automotive applications. Mark, I went to the Baldwin filter catalog web site (http://catalog.baldwinfilter.com/) and punched in "P48" in their cross reference search engine and it shows it crosses over to a Baldwin P80 lube filter. The Baldwin P80 replaces: PHILLIPS 66 P48 PUROLATOR P48 and REFILCO P48. Descriptions: Microlite Full-Flow Lube Element O.D.: 3-15/16" (100.0mm) I.D.: 7/8" (22.2mm) Length: 4-13/16" (122.2mm) Does that look right? You can order Baldwin filters from Williams Oil Filter Service in Tacoma, WA, (253) 627-8163. Let me know if you need any help as their a mile down the street from where I work. I know they'd be happy to ship to you direct anywhere, but I could also pick up the filter you need and ship it to you. Best regards, John L. Shoreline, WA ------- Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 01:35:40 -0000 From: "ikimjing" Subject: Sheldon shaper parts wanted I know this is a real long shot but Ill try. I have a 12" Sheldon that I started to redo. I need a micrometer dial. They are all 3 the same so doesn't matter. Also need a knob for one of the access doors. Any chance I can still purchase these ??? Thanks, Jim ------- Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 03:02:19 GMT From: "mikejanfx~xxjuno.com" Subject: Re: Sheldon shaper parts wanted Jim: If all else fails, just make them. Key is to turn your mic collar between centers on a pressed in tapered arbor (which you can also make on the lathe, I like a .006 taper in a 6" arbor although factory arbors are usually .003 taper per 6".) Then transfer it to a dividing head for cutting the marks. There are 3 mark lengths. The 1, 2, 3, 4 and 6, 7, 8, 9 marks are the shortest. The "5" marks are the longest. The 0, 10, 20 . . . 90 marks are midway between the other marks leaving you space to stamp in the numbers. Don't know what the pitch of your screws are, but 10 tpi will give you 100 on the divisions of your mic collar and 8 tpi will give you 125 divisions. One neat little trick I learned to keep numbers straight and in the same plane is to set up your mic collar back in the lathe once all the lines are scribed. Start with the "0" number on a "middle length" line. (Note: do not put the tightening screw hole by the "0", put it anywhere else, otherwise it makes it hard to zero the collar on your index mark.) Put a left cutting tool holder in your lantern tool post (the holder is bent to the right), and put your "0" stamp number in the tool holder sideways (zero laying flat, not verticle) tighten the tool bit bolt on the stamp. Now position the lantern tool post and get the stamp laying flat and right where you want it by moving the carriage and revolving the collar. Once it is in the right position, lock down the carriage. Now lock your compound, and turn your cross feed in snugly. Take a small brass hammer and tap the stamp. It should not harm your cross feed nut (since most crossfeeds have some back lash and you won't be imbedding the numbered stamp deeper than your backlash). Next, back out the stamp with the cross- feed, rotate the dial to the "10", remember to offset the "0" to leave room for the "1" and do the same above proceedure. Eventually you have to go back and put in the 1,2, 3, etc., but it keeps all the numbers lined up, you make no slips, and it keeps all the numbers in the same plane. Don't have a dividing head? Find a 100 or 125 tooth gear, attach it firmly to the arbor, and index off it. You could possibly even use your shaper with a sharp "v" bit to do the scribing as you hand crank it for each mark. Tedious, but workable. Polish the mic collar before the scribing or numbering. Give it a shot. Mike in Iowa ------- Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 15:44:30 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: G&E.. finding oil filter --- In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "rjtrms" wrote: > Hey there Guys... Need a hyd. oil filter for my 1960's 16" hyd. G&E > shaper.. "Purolator" brand is in the parts book ...have no idea what > # it should be..or cross over # for it....Can any of you guys help??? > Robbie Download the Army TM for the Mitts & Merril shaper in "Files" here. It's a G&E. Go to Sheet Number C16. Is that what your filter element looks like? You may be able to save it for a while by cleaning it first in denatured alcohol and then with kerosine. At least you might get it clean enuf to measure it and/or take it with you on filter search trips. Have you tried to contact the boys at Purolator Supreme Headquarters yet? Use: http://www.pureoil.com and click onto their contact clicker. Filter search trips could include farm stores such as TSC, farm tractor dealers, heavy earth moving equipment dealers, farm tractor hobbiests.... I doubt that Purolator designed a filter just for G&E. G&E probably used a standard off-the-shelf parts-bin Purolator filter-- other bbrands will probably work as well. Go into our archives and locate Matt I. He had a filter element problem with his Western shaper and, if I remember correctly, he was able to find one that fit. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 09:21:50 -0700 From: "Jason J" Subject: Re: Re: G&E.. finding oil filter You might also contact Williams Oil Filter Service Co., also known as Wofsco. They seem to known everything about oil filters and have a huge inventory. 1247 Puyallup Avenue Tacoma WA 98401 Tel: 253 627 8163 http://www.wofsco.com ------- Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 17:39:45 -0000 From: "metalmill52" Subject: South Bend Advice Needed I have gotten my 7inch SB shaper taken apart and have stripped most of the old paint, hoping to shoot primer tomorrow. I need to ask for some advice on final diasassembly of the crossslide leadscrew. I've removed the acorn nut, second nut, washer and bearing from one end, but the leadscrew does not want to come out the "right" side. Is there some hidden setscrew or pin holding it in, or should I use "force" (gear puller or tapping it out)? Many thanks for all the advice so far! I'll send a post reporting on how the Ben Moore Industrial primer does... Happy Independence Day and Semper Fi to All! Bill C. Pensacola, FL ------- Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 12:47:04 -0500 From: "Daniel J. Stone" Subject: Re: South Bend Advice Needed Hi Bill: When I took my SB apart I did not have a problem with the cross- slide leadscrew. It just unscrewed from the bronze bearing that was bolted to the table. The leadscrew actuator, screw and handle came out as a unit. When you attempt to remove yours where does it seem to be hold up at? Dan ------- Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 17:56:01 -0000 From: "metalmill52" Subject: Re: South Bend Advice Needed Hi Dan: Glad you are on line! It is holding up at the right hand side, near where the line drawn from the Number 20 is in the drawing on page 35 of the Army manual. It is almost as though there is a snap ring or something retaining the cross feed screw inside the right hand side of the housing. Any Ideas? Thanks! Bill C. ------- Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 01:26:03 -0000 From: "metalmill52" Subject: Re: South Bend Advice Needed Just to follow up - I got it out! Thanks for the advice - Based on your assurance that there was no pins or screws to break, I put a "chock" behind the bronze bearing and just turned the handle - I am almost embarassed to admit how easily it came out. Thanks again! I have a new question for any or all, is there some special fastener that holds those tri-ball handles on? I can see a small hole in the center of the fastener, but none of my hex wrenches fit it. Doesn't appear to be a clutch head like are so common on my 52 Chevy...Looks like I need to remove the center portion before I can use a straight blade screwdriver to remove the handle. As always, any advice is appreciated. Thanks, Bill C. Pensacola, FL ------- Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 20:40:25 -0500 From: "Daniel J. Stone" Subject: Re: Re: South Bend Advice Needed Bill, I have two different types of nuts that hold the balance ball handles on my SB. The one on the cross-slide is just a normal 7/16 hex head nut. The problem is that the nut fits in a recess in the middle ball of the handle. You need to find just the right socket or wrench to grab on to the 1/8 inch or so sticking up above the ball. Luckily the nut on mine was not on too tight and a six point wrench was able to grab it. The other style has an interrupted screw slot in the fastener. I just took a cheap hardware store screwdriver and cut a notch in the blade with a Dremel cutoff wheel; it reaches over the center threads of the screw and removes it slick as a whistle. All these handles are on the screws pretty tightly; they have a short piece of rod in a pocket milled in the handle and they screw together. The rod is about .125 X .250 on my handles, easy to lose but also easily made if you do lose it. Hope this helps. Dan ------- Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 02:25:55 -0000 From: "metalmill52" Subject: Re: South Bend Advice Needed Dan: That helps alot - great idea! I may try my little snap ring pliers like a spanner before I grind a screwdriver, but I appreciate you letting me in on your secret! Bill C. Pensacola, FL ------- Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 19:12:37 -0000 From: Subject: Re: South Bend Advice Needed An alternative to snap ring pliers or grinding a screwdriver is to take a fender washer and cut it in half. Then apply to your screw and turn it with a pair of pliers. It worked for me. Good luck, Dennis in Mill Creek, WA ------- Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 17:00:17 -0000 From: "johann_ohnesorg" Subject: Ramways with rust Tomorrow, I´m going to take a look at a shaper which I intend to buy. From pictures I got so far, I can see the machine is rusted because it sat on the outside for 2 weeks. Now my question: I´ll take the machine apart and will clean it up anyhow. But how serious will the rust affect the accuracy of the machine? From what I´ve seen, the ram is rusted "to a normal extent", the feedslide for the x-motion does not look so good...it was sticking out into sun & rain. Does scotch brite and wd40 do the job or do I have to rework the machine on another machine? Any hints from people who have done this before? Like: Stuck ram from rust? leave the s**ker where it is? Any special tips, concerning electrics? Problem is some part looks okay on the pictures, other seem to have a coarse, rusty surface. Cheers, Johann ------- Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 18:16:44 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Ramways with rust Johann--I wouldn't take it apart--lube it well and see how well everything moves first...wiping and oiling as you go. Rust is softer than steel and iron...see if you can't just adjust and get it running properly. Then get out your dial indicators and see where you are. Don't use anything abrasive unless it's a last resort to getting the shaper "un-glued". WD-40 may help desolve some of the old lube crud but don't consider it a lubricant for the shaper slide ways: use a medium weight way lube designed for slide ways. I shudder when I hear people say that they're going to "take it apart and clean it". First, see if it works...before you try to "fix it". You can clean it--and lube it--adequately for operation WITHOUT taking it apart. Good luck! Art (Houston) ------- Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 11:29:16 -0700 From: "Jason J" Subject: Re: Re: Ramways with rust Amen! 50% of the machines that get taken apart to clean them up end up being sold in pieces or scrapped. Wipe it down, lube it up and run it. Without doing that you will never know what you have. ScotchBrite ruins LOTS of machines. The grit gets everywhere and laps the ways into uselessness. ------- Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 06:28:20 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Square Hole Inserts for a...Re: Logan Handle "genestal1" wrote: > New to this group. Just recently aquired a Logan 8 inch. Missing a > couple of items. Curious if anyone has a handle on where to locate a > handle for the Logan. Has anyone constructed one? Any pictures, > dimentions or drawings would be helpful. Seen some posts on making > square holes, maybe that is an answer. Gene-- What size square hole crank handle do you need? Wholesale Tool-- http://www.wttool.com --has a number of various sized crank handles in the 10+ buck range plus shipping. If you wanna make your own, one way to make a square hole is to drill a round hole and then silver solder into it a square hole insert. Joe W. knows where to get these inserts--he told me once, but I forgot. Joe??? If you're rich, and the coins are just spillin' outta your pockets, buy the appropriate square hole drill tooling from Watts Brothers. Art ------- Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 08:14:03 -0600 From: J R Williams Subject: Re: Square Hole Inserts for a...Re: Logan Handle Art: I bought my "Square Hole Sleeves" from Reid supply but have used old sockets for square holes. The drive end gives the 1/4, 3/8 and 1/2 sizes. The standard 12 point sockets work for the other end. I turn down the od or bore the mounting hole to give several thousandths interference fit. It solves many problems. Joe W ------- Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 12:05:49 EST From: jmartin957x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Square Hole Inserts for a...Re: Logan Handle Art: Reid Tool and others have the inserts, at least the three-sided ones. I've filed out a number of square holes, but have decided to make a tool holder for the shaper to do the next ones. I don't recall ever seeing one mentioned, but it should be easy to make up a tool post or tool holder to take a square bit end on. Bevel the bit back from one corner, and use it without side relief to punch the round hole out to square. Not all at once, but one corner at a time, with multiple cuts per corner. A 1/4" bit in a 1/2" hole should give plenty of room and still handle the stress. Might want to lock the clapper down. Anyone ever tried it? John Martin ------- Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 17:53:07 -0000 From: "R. Wade Brooks" Subject: Square Hole Inserts for a...Re: Logan Handle I am lucky enough to have both a filing machine and a shaper. I would probably file it out in the filing machine but I see no reason that a shaper wouldn't work (other than lack of the handle). Did you think of mounting a file in your tool holder? ------- Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 13:38:14 EST From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Square Hole Inserts for a...Re: Logan Handle > If you wanna make your own, one way to make a square hole is to drill > a round hole and then silver solder into it a square hole insert. i routinely broach up to .455 sq.holes w/a flatened lathe toolbit (no clearance necessary, 90 deg. to axis ) ..just plain beat it thru a hole 1/32 larger & champhered ....heavy hammer (32oz+ ) & watch for chipping of bit if not using a brass hammer ...then use sq. file to provide any xtra relief best wishes docn8as ------- Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 19:44:33 -0000 From: "Tommy Ward" Subject: Square Hole Inserts for a...Re: Logan Handle Doc's got a good approach. Most blacksmiths know how to easily punch any shape of hole in steel, and a reasonably accomplished one would have no problem in forging a complete crank out of bar or rod stock. I've said it before - all machinists could benefit from some basic blacksmithing knowledge. To see how holes are punched with a hammer and drift, go to AnvilFire's website at: http://www.anvilfire.com and then click on the "iforge" tutorial section and proceed to sessions 63 and 64. Working hot metal is fun! Tommy Ward ------- Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 15:16:27 -0000 From: "Chris" Subject: South Bend Shaper - Countershaft Bushings In restoring my SB Shaper, I went to replace the Gits oiler on the countershaft Motor Cradle (Part #8 in the exploded parts diagram) since the top had been broken off and never replaced. I thought this was going to be an easy fix, but again it was not to be. I had order the correct oiler from McMaster Carr, and removing the old one went without incident. It was when I cleaned the hole to install the new oiler that I noticed it ended at the Bronze Bushing (#7), no hole went through to the Countershaft. Thinking that the bushing must have turned, I examined the other one on the Motor Cradle and found it to be the same - no hole. I still thought, I must be missing something, so I pulled the Countershaft and examined the bushings while still in the Motor Cradle, and still no evidence of any way for the oil to get to the Countershaft. I then removed one of the bushings, which was a tight push fit into the Motor Cradle, and still no evidence of any way for the oil to get to the Countershaft. What am I missing? Should there be a hole below the Gits oilers through the bushing? If so how large should it be? I just have a hard time believing that South Bend missed putting a way for oil to get to the Countershaft. The parts list does specify two different Countershaft part numbers (#5 - for 1/3 HP motors, & #36 - for 1/2 HP motors). Unfortunately it does not give shaft sizes, but I believe the only difference between the two parts is the length not the thickness, otherwise they would have had to specify different bushings, etc. The 1/2 HP shaft is longer possibly to accommodate a larger pulley for more shaper speeds? If you have experienced this issue with your machine, or can comment on how your oilers are set-up on your SB's, please reply so I can complete this part of the restoration. Thanks, Chris ------- Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 07:27:04 -0800 From: "Jason J" Subject: Re: South Bend Shaper - Countershaft Bushings I suspect the bushings are Oilite sintered bronze and being VERY porous don't need an oil hole. ------- Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 20:30:27 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Oilube Beariings--Re: South Bend Shaper - Countershaft Bushings For more informatiuon on Oilube type bearings--oil impregnated sintered bronze--see: http://www.loganact.com/tips/sleeve_bearings/index.htm Art ------- Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 23:13:20 -0000 From: "metalmill52" Subject: Re: South Bend Shaper - Countershaft Bushings Chris, I just restored a SB 7 inch shaper and noticed one side of the motor shaft squealed and got hot while running, despite plenty of oil in the cups (see recent post in last month or so). I probed into both oil cups and could not find any hole, even took the shaft apart for a visual inspection, no joy. I emailed the group and was advised there should be a hole so I just drilled an 1/8" hole straight through the cup and thru the bearing. Deburred inside of bearing, cleaned out thoroughly, reassembled, refilled oil cups and it works great now. Yes, oil does ooze out on the shaft and drip a little, but I make sure to refill each time and would much rather have this situation than no oil flow and a hot squealing bearing! I do understand the idea of a porous bronze allowing oil to flow to the shaft, but it wasn't happening on my machine, so I'm satisfied with this solution. Good luck with your machine! Bill C. Pensacola, FL ------- Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 22:42:08 EST From: CaptonZapx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: South Bend Shaper - Countershaft Bushings 2/17/2006, greerfamx~xxraex.com writes: > The bushing is probably made of Oilite bronze which will absorb oil > like a sponge from the Gits and bleed it onto the shaft surface > as needed. One other point on Oilite bushings. If they have set without being used for a number of years, the oil that was in between the nodules of brass/bronze can become oxidized, forming a goo. Remember the old grease in the old machine that was found in the barn, that was like clay? The oil in the bearing can do something similar. The thing to do then is to soak the bushing in lacquer thinner, MEK, or acetone for a few days, agitating occasionally, dry it with heat, then put it in a small container of oil, and heat it up to the point that the oil starts to smoke. Do this with an electric hot plate, because the fumes are flammable. Let the oil cool, and the bearing may be as good as new. Or not. After you use it for a while, you can tell if it is "oiling". Or go to a good bearing house and ask them for a new one. Few tool manufacturers used non standard bushings when they could buy ready made ones, and the bushings are made in standard sizes, ID and OD, and different lengths. They are tricky to machine, but can be filed for length easily. CZ ------- Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 00:48:56 -0000 From: "viscoyl" Subject: SB-7 Ram Hello: Only been reading the messages so far, but now I could use some advice about a problem with a 7 inch South Bend shaper. I have been trying to remove the ram so I can check to see if oil is flowing through the lubrication tube on the gib side, but I'm not sure exactly how it comes off. The gib started moving and making a clicking noise when the shaper was running, but when I tightened the gib screws enough to stop the movement, there seemed to be a lot of friction and the ram ways started getting hot. Oiling the ways by hand eliminated the heat build-up so I guessed there was no oil being pumped to the gib side. I think the oil pump is working because there is a good squirt of oil from the tubes that feed the gears and slider block. I finally took a thin piece of brass rod and a hammer and tapped the gib strip off, and thought I had found the trouble when I saw that the oil hole was plugged with dirt. However, there does not appear to be any opening for oil to reach the dovetail in the column casting. On looking closely, there is what looks like a brassy-colored spot directly opposite the gib oil hole when the gib is in position, so maybe something broke off in there? Probably I should have left the gib alone and concentrated on getting the ram off, but its too late for that now. I'm guessing that the ram would come off if I could loosen the rocker arm (part #74 in my diagram) and get the rocker cross shaft out of the way, but the screw that holds the rocker is on the bottom and seems impossible to reach, at least with an ordinary wrench. So where do I go from here? Any help appreciated. Mike ------- Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 06:31:00 -0500 From: "Daniel J. Stone" Subject: Re: SB-7 Ram Mike: When you drove the gib out you sheared off the oil tube that feeds the slide. These tubes are small brass cylinders pressed into the casting and extending through a hole in the gib. My SB 7 had the same problem and I replaced the brass tube with a small length of 1/8 copper tube; works fine. As to removing the ram, find out what size bolt holds the rocker to the cross shaft. I had to cut a wrench in half to loosen my bolt; I believe the factory used a 5/16 square head screw. The supplied wrench was just short enough to get a small swing on the bolt, that is the only way you're going to get the ram off. I was lucky in that the cross shaft was not too buggered up and came out pretty easily once I loosened up that well protected bolt. Good luck. Dan ------- Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 07:56:33 -0500 From: Christopher V Becker Subject: Re: SB-7 Ram Mike: I'm afraid you have already gone too far without getting needed information on how to disassemble the ram from your machine properly. First you need to get the SB manual. You access a copy on the following web site http://wewilliams.net/SBLibrary.htm. Down near the bottom of the list of manuals you will find the one on SB Shapers. Open it up and go to page 27 where it will tell you how to completely remove the ram from the machine, which I suspect you will now need to do. I suspect that by removing the ram gib(s) the way you did you have sheared off the copper oil tube that goes through the gib to deliver oil to the ram. Start by removing the side oil reservoir cover and trace the four oil lines from the oil pump manifold - a brass block attached above the oil pump. There should be four lines carrying oil to 1) the bull gear, 2) the rocker arm on the from of the bull gear, 3 & 4) an oil line should go to each of the ram ways - they go into the main casting about midway between the ends of the ram, even with the V-way of the ram on either side. You can easily see this from looking inside the oil reservoir, but what you can't see until you remove the ram is that they also go through the gibs to the ram on either side. You must remove the ram first by following the procedure on P-27 of the manual and then pull the gibs straight out, not slide them out as you did. Depending on the age of your machine you may have copper tubes just pushed into the holes on the casting in which case you may be able to push a little more into the hole for the part that was possibly sheared off. Newer machines have a brass fitting pressed into the casting and the copper tube soldered into the fitting. I have never been able to remove one of these, nor have I ever need too, yet. So good luck and let us know how you make out. Take pictures if you can, and upload them to the Shaper Picture web site for future reference. Chris ------- Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2006 00:26:29 -0000 From: "viscoyl" Subject: Update On SB-7 Ram Problem Daniel & Chris, thanks for the replies. I took a look at that Williams site but apparently the SB shaper pages have been removed. Since the original factory data wasn't available, I decided to try something else. After a lot of contortions, I managed to get a wrench onto that setscrew (it's a 5/16" square head) on the bottom of the rocker arm and loosen it enough that I could drive out the cross shaft, which allowed the rocker to drop out of the way, and the ram to easily slide off. For future reference, here is what I found out about the oil tube assembly: the oil line that feeds the gib side of the ram way is soldered into a steel right-angle fitting that is pressed into a hole in the side of the casting. This fitting can be removed by tapping a thin screwdriver blade around the fitting between the casting and the fitting base, and carefully prying it out of the hole. It looks like it is made of copper at first glance, but a magnet showed it was steel and it will stand up to a certain amount of prying if you don't get too rough with it. Oil is fed through this hole into another series of smaller holes and eventually to the ram through a hole in the gib. The outer end of the gib side hole is sealed against leakage with a short length of 1/8" rod, which I drove out with a hammer and a piece of 1/8" welding rod to remove the stub of the oil tube that went through the gib hole. This was replaced with a piece of 1/8" copper tube and the outer hole was sealed with a piece cut from the same 1/8" welding rod that I drove out the old oil tube stub with. With the main oil lines back in place, I turned the machine on to check for oil flow and was surprised to see that there was no oil reaching either ram way. And this is the irritating part --- apparently whoever had the shaper before me had altered the oil valve adjustment screw settings and cut off the flow. All of this nonsense could have been avoided if I had thought to check those two screws, but my copy of the "How To Run A Metalworking Shaper" manual says that they are set at the factory and don't ordinarily need re-adjusting and so I took their word for it. Anyhow, when those two screws were properly set there was a good flow of oil to both ram ways. So far, so good. Then after I replaced the ram and was trying to reinstall the rocker arm cross shaft, I discovered that it didn't seem to want to go back into the rocker arm hole. I suppose they pressed the shaft in at the factory, but a hammer removed it for me so naturally I tried to hammer it back in place, but it would only go a little way into the rocker hole and then seemed to jam. I didn't want to risk breaking something by hammering too hard, and after taking an educated guess that maybe the shaft was slightly enlarged at one end, I tried putting it in from the other side and this time it stuck in the bearing bushing on that side and pushed it out into the oil sump. The bushing is now split down its length and I will somehow have to replace it. I miked the shaft and there is a variation of about 1/2 thousandth diameter between the two ends, so possibly I tried to drive the wrong end into the split bushing. I have a lathe and probably can make a new bushing if I can't buy one, but what do I do about replacing the rocker arm onto the shaft? Am I trying to do it all wrong? Any suggestions appreciated. MIke ------- Update on the Adept number 2 rebuild. [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "biggles8au" biggles8aux~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:03 am (PDT) Hi Guys and especially Art, I'm just back onto the group mailing list today and I noted some more good advice on disassembling shapers. Fortunately I have the simplest one made and after Art's warning I sent it to a machine shop where they understand shapers. They have two big shapers that they have rebuilt and use, and they have surface ground the table and the ram and slide for me. I have had the castings powder coated prior to the grinding but it's still in pieces. I'm separated by a few thousand miles from the pieces as I accepted a job in China. Not far from the Shanghai surplus shaper secret society of sacrificial furnaces. I actually visited the biggest steel plant in China in May (Bao Gang in Shanghai)and they expect to double its size to 50 million tonnes of iron and steel products within 10 years. Maintaining the theme of this is a good place to get sound advice, I used the excuse of buying a bigger machine to repair the first one (as suggested in a previous message in this group)and I saved a beautiful Aussie made Douglas 10 and 1/2 inch shaper from misuse and rust. It's currently sitting in a very nice shed some thousands... etc, so it won't get rusty or mis-used or even used till I get back to Australia. I had the day off today as I've been working a heap of extra time and went to Shanghai to see if I could track down a newly released CNC version of the 9" by 20" lathe. Very frustrating as the marketing manager of the import-export agency would not sell me one or tell me where I could get one or organise another local dealer to sell me one. My interest in this particular unit has to do with its price of about USD 4000. The specs and photos show a nice usable compact machine that I can learn on, and make something useful with. http://www.made-in-china.com/china- products/productviewXeoJnFxrIQtP/CNC-Mini-Lathe.html Doing the research I came across 2 current manufacturers of big shapers in China. They appear to be gear driven but I know a lot more about mining than shapers so I'll attach a link. http://sjmc.en.alibaba.com/product/50113707/50516657/Machine_Tools/Sh aping_Machine.html http://www.made-in-china.com/showroom/polytop0755/product- detailDInEpjQHmJBa/China-Shaping-Machine-PTBA60100-.html Perhaps these factories make new shaper vises as well? ------- Re: Update on the Adept number 2 rebuild. Posted by: "Jack Vines" Jack.Vinesx~xxptpprograms.org Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:32 am (PDT) Hi, biggles8au: The Chinese are only slightly more recalcitrant than the Aussies in that regard. Have had the same difficulty in both places trying to get back to the source and buy machinery and parts. Like you, I have visited factories and the exporters in China and been told there is no way to sell me the machine in front of us on the floor. The CNC lathe I was looking at sold for $10,000 in the US and my Chinese associate said he heard them saying in Chinese they sold them to the US company for $3,000. Thnx, jv. ------- Re: Cross Feed Ratchet Posted by: "John A. Landry" gyropilotx~xxautorotation.net Date: Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:14 am (PDT) On 20 Sep 2006, Ed Godwin said: >There needs to be a little anti-rotation drag on the cross-feed screw >for the pawl in the ratchet casing to lift up against its spring >pressure. With no drag, the pawl just pushes against the tooth and >rotates the cross-feed screw back and forth. Ed is exactly right. It's just like when using a common socket wrench to remove a nut... once the nut is loose, the socket wrench will cease ratcheting unless some drag is applied to the socket via finger pressure. On my particular Porter-Cable shaper, sometimes just the weight of having a vise and work piece mounted on the table will supply sufficient drag to the cross feed screw so the ratchet will function properly. One other suggestion Grant, is to take the ratchet assembly apart, clean it well with solvent, and lube it. It could have old dried out lubricant gumming things up. Also, you may need to gently re-sharpen