Simple metal forming is another skill that can assist the home machinist or metalworker, as well as many participating in other crafts or hobbies. There have not been a lot of messages in the groups I follow regularly about the subject of Sheet Metal Forming -- in its various types. Consequently I have added some information here from another small file I was keeping at home on spinning metal. Small-scale bending conversations of interest will also be included here. Some info is also being introduced from the OldTools group where the Galoots restore and repair and refurbish the metal and wood parts of some ordinary, as well as great, tools. So this file has been renamed to "Simple Metal Forming" to broaden its scope and hopefully capture more good tips and solutions for our needs. (And in some instances metal forming techniques might be applied to other materials.) It will not go much into the intricacies of blacksmithing, a large subject already well covered on other web sites. There may be some mention here of annealing (softening) metal parts before and during a forming process to prevent work-hardening and cracking. Heat Treating info may be found in a file of that very same name on this site. This lack of forming discussion is a bit strange considering that metal- workers (and woodworkers for that matter) frequently form metal for all sorts of projects and accessories for their workshops. Either everyone already knows how to do it all, or everyone is faithfully sticking on-topic to the lathe or mill or shaper subjects of the individual group? Eventually someone will break down and ask their group about how to form this or that metal object, and this file will grow ;-) Some simple (simplistic) definitions follow to put us on the same track. "Spinning" is an operation on a sturdy lathe whereby a (usually) circular piece of sheet metal is held and spun (rotated) while being levered by a metal tool to change its shape from flat to 3-dimensional. An example would be spinning a flat disk of silver into the top part of a wine goblet. Or a piece of thin brass to make a bell shape. The process is helped by a piece of wood (like a 3D male master that is close to final shape) against which the metal is pushed/levered. "Bending" is an operation applied to solid or hollow metal of any initial shape. The most common bend is to 90-degrees. Any sequential combination of inside or outside bends, at any angle or curve, will require a bit of planning so that the current bent-shape does not interfere with a later bending operation. Even the 'simple' 90-degree bend in a solid, flat piece of metal has the complexity of allowing for some metal used up in the bend. If you wanted to make two 90-degree bends in a 3-inch-long piece of metal strap at one inch increments, the last leg would be shorter than one inch. How much shorter would depend on the thickness of the strap and the type of metal, and can be determined from a subject called Bending Allowance. Formulas are dandy, but an experiment with a sample scrap of the same metal will let you know positively how much extra length to allow for each type of bend. "Forming" is a non-specific term that could apply to any process here. It could refer to either of the above methods of reshaping metal, or to such methods as pressing or hammering into a hollow, or over a male shape. It could be manually powered or involve machines or hydraulic force. It could be stamping with dies, or making complex 3-dimensional curves in sheet metal with an English Wheel for a car fender. There are other industrial methods with fancy machinery and names beyond the scope of our purpose here. If you got to this file directly from my HOME PAGE, return there by using your browser's back button. BUT if you came to this file as the result of a web search engine, see more than 70 additional files on my home page Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ SAFETY WARNING BEWARE: DO NOT ASSUME that any subject matter or procedure or process is safe or correct or appropriate just because it was mentioned in a news/user group or was included in these files or on this site or on any other web site or was published in a magazine or book or video. Working with metals and machinery and chemicals and electrical equipment is inherently dangerous. Wear safety devices and clothing as appropriate. Remove watches, rings, and jewellery -- and secure or remove loose clothing -- before operating any machine. Read, understand and follow the latest operating procedures and safety instructions provided by the manufacturer of your machine or tool or product. If you do not have those most recent official instructions, acquire a copy through the manufacturer before operating or using their product. Where the company no longer exists, use the appropriate news or user group to locate an official copy. Be careful -- original instructions may not meet current safety standards. Updated safety information and operating instructions may also be available through a local club, a local professional in the trade, a local business, or an appropriate government agency. In every case, use your common sense before beginning or taking the next step; and do not proceed if you have any questions or doubts about any procedure, or the safety of any procedure. Follow all laws and codes, and employ certified or licenced professionals as required by those laws or codes. Hazardous tasks beyond your competence or expertise should also be contracted to professionals. Let's be really careful out there. (c) Copyright 2003 - 2007 Machining and Metalworking at Home The form of the collected work in this text file (including editing, additions, and notes) is copyrighted and this file is not to be reproduced by any means, including electronic, without written permission except for strictly personal use. ========================================================================== From: Date: Wed Jul 5, 2000 1:18pm Subject: Re: Spinning rest Hi all: A word about lubricant for those who plan to do spinning for the first time. Strangely, grease is not good enough, oil is not good enough, soap is not good enough, nor is any of the tailstock lubricants. The old time spinners used a thick mixture of fine soap shavings and motor oil. Scrape the soap bar with a knife and then chop the resulting shaving into corn meal size particles. Mix with a little oil to form a thick mixture. Us of this will usually cut the number of anneals in half. It allows the spinning tool to slide on the surface instead of trying to smear it. Spinning is shown in my last workshop video. Bill Smith http://horology.magnet.fsu.edu/wrsmith.htm ------- From: Jim Ash Date: Wed Nov 22, 2000 9:06pm Subject: Bride of making a small English Wheel (Long) An English wheel is one of the old techniques for forming sheet metal, probably second only to the mallet and shot bag. Sheet metal readily bends on one axis (simple curve) but not on more than one (compound curve) at the same time. Consider the difficulty of forming a single sheet to look like half a basketball (or an auto fender, or airplane wheel pants, or an airplane engine cowling, ...). Without cutting or welding; we're talking one piece here. The English wheel can do this. The English wheel in the normal configuration consists of a large 'C'-shaped frame, kinda like a big C-clamp. between the ends of the frame are two wheels called anvils. They are mounted so their edges turn into each other, like the old wringer washers. Usually the upper one is purely cylindrical, like a basic lathe turning. On a normal-sized wheel, the diameter of the upper anvil might be 8 inches up to maybe a foot (I've seen smaller machines for work like you're interested in doing. The concept is certainly scalable). The edge (length) of the cylinder is somewhere around 2-3 inches wide and finished smoothly. The bottom wheel is a little more complicated. If you took a basic lathe turning (diameter about 3 inches, length about 3 inches) and then used a radius dresser with a fairly large radius to 'round' the edge into a mild ellipsoid, you'd get a bottom anvil. Typically a wheel will come with a set of 4 or more anvils of roughly the same major diameter, but different radii (This is a little over- simplistic, because some anvils actually have a flat spot in the middle and radii on each end). If you consider a sheet of metal to be like a sheet of rubber, the two things you can do with it are to stretch it and shrink it. Using these, you can make all kinds of strange curves with it. Both materials have the same general mechanical properties, except the numbers are different (coefficients of elasticity, strengths, compressiong and deflection forces, etc). In normal practice, you leave the cylindrical wheel on top and select the anvil with the radius you want for the lower wheel. The machine has a screw mechanism attached to one of the anvils to be able to control the gap, but more importantly the pressure, between these two wheels. By feel, not by measurement. For basic operation of the machine (stretching), the drill is to set the gap to just under the thickness of the sheet metal you are trying to form, so the anvils apply pressure to the metal as you roll it back and forth between them manually. The pressure between the anvils squishes the metal and causes some of it to displace to the sides. Picture a hunk of cookie dough and what happens when you use a rolling pin on it. It spreads out and gets thinner. This is the essence of stretching. Now, when you learn how to control where (and how much) to perform this stretching, life get interesting. Picture taking a flat, circular piece of sheet metal and stretching it, but just in the middle. Because the metal in the center is stretched, but the rim isn't, the metal is going to find some other direction to displace to. It will form a hump. If you can control the curvature of the hump, you can create what would look like one of those 'baby moon' hub caps. It's actually kind of amazing how quickly and easily you can form these curves on a wheel. And because both anvils are smooth, they impart a smooth finish on the sheet as a side benefit. By selecting anvils of different radii, you can control the amount of area this pressure gets applied to. An anvil with a smaller radius will have less contact area and cause more pressure to be applied to a smaller area. This would be used to make more abrupt curves. A flatter anvil will cause the pressure to be more spread out and consequently make shallower curves. I know a sheet metal guy who buys big chunks of 3" CRS rod and turns his own anvils so he can get exactly the curvature he wants. If this isn't magic enough, you can also shrink with the wheel, too. Stretching happens all the time. Every auto accident (at least with metal cars) in which fenders are bent has stretched them. All those krinkles are metal that has been forced, by stretching, to go away from that smooth curve it started with. If you set you anvils just a bit wider than the metal thickness instead of a bit thinner, and run your fender through it, the anvils are going to bump up against the peaks and valleys first. This will cause them to flatten out and shrink the metal back to where it came from. You keep working the metal and bringing the anvils (and consequently the peaks and valleys) down until it's smooth. But no further, or you start stretching again. Shrinking is a touchier operation on the wheel than stretching. To get the shapes you want, sometimes you make a form, called a buck. This is a 3-D skeleton shape of the part you want, usually made from plywood. When you get close to final shape, you start running between your wheel and your buck and making little tweaks to the metal curvature to conform to the buck. This is metal work, folks, but not the kind with micrometers, motors, and surface plates. It's considered an art form by some. I just consider it magic. For those in attendance at the EAA airshow at Oshkosh, Wi. or the Sun 'n Fun in Lakeland Fl., there's always a tent in the hands-on area for sheet metal forming. You can walk up, grab a piece of scrap and play with one of these machines as long as you want, for the price of admission to the show. There are also seminars here and there that introduce this stuff in 2 or 3 day classes. Sorry about the verbosity. You asked for it, you got it. Jim Ash Winter Springs, Fl. ------- From: Date: Wed Nov 22, 2000 10:46pm Subject: Re: making a small English Wheel Jason: A small English wheel can be made using a arbor press as a frame and ball bearings for wheels. Good qaulity steel caster wheels will also work and can be machined to what ever shape you need. The parts you will need to convert the frame can be machined on a small lathe and mill. Jerry Kieffer ------- From: Date: Thu Nov 23, 2000 4:32pm Subject: Re: making a small English Wheel Jason: It makes no difference if the pressure is applied from the top or the bottom. On mine I apply pressure to the ram with two fine threaded rods on each side of the ram and a strap across the top. I tighten each nut on top of the strap equally and it works fine. Jerry Kieffer ------- From: "Marco C. Mason" Date: Wed Jul 25, 2001 3:52 pm Subject: OT: Metal Bending (long) Hey, gang -- Sorry for this long EMail, but I have a question that (may) need a picture. I'm a rank amateur, and haven't yet needed to bend any metal. For my new project, however, I'm going to need to. I need a pair of brackets, and I don't know how to make the bends. I've been considering purchasing a (cheap) metal brake from Horrible Freight (as one just opened in my area), but I don't know if I can build this bracket with it. So, here are three ASCII pictures. The first one is the planned sheet metal cutout, with the dots being the bend lines: +-------------+ / \ / . . \ / \ / . . \ / \ / . . \ / \ / . . \ / \ / . . \ + + | . . | |. . . . .+---------------+. . . . .| | | | | | | | | +---------+ +---------+ Next are two views (front & side) of the bracket I'm trying to make: +-------------+ | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |-------------| +--+ +--+ + |\ | \ | \ | \ | \ | \ | \ | \ | \ | \ | \ | \ | \ |+- - - - -+--+ +---------+ Since all the fold lines are 90 deg. up, I don't know how to make this thing. The way I imagine the metal brake working, I think I'd get interference on some bends, no matter which order I do them in. I'd love to be proven wrong. So how do people make brackets like this? marco ------- From: Stan Stocker Date: Wed Jul 25, 2001 5:57 pm Subject: Re: [taigtools] OT: Metal Bending (long) A "real" sheet metal brake AKA Box and Pan Brake typically has fingers that can be adjusted to allow existing bends to pass through between the clamping fingers. On cheap benders you have to cut slots in the clamp plate with a hacksaw. If the metal is fairly thin, you can skip the brake and use angle iron, C Clamps, and lumber to clamp along the lines, then fold. You can tighten up the fold line via a rawhide or plastic mallet over a form. Your artwork displayed fine, but some dimensions would help. If the bracket is 4 inches long, you can pull the job off with just a bench vise and hammer. If it is 4 foot long you might want to go by an HVAC or sheet metal shop and see what they would charge you to bend it up. They will also have a shear to give much better cut edges than you'll get with aviation or tin snips. Stan ------- From: torquemada40223x~xxy... Date: Wed Jul 25, 2001 6:02 pm Subject: Re: OT: Metal Bending (long) Stan -- Thanks for the great reply! My brackets are about 6", so I think I'll forego buying metal brake right now, and use the lumber & clamps as you suggested, and then tighten the fold with my rubber mallet and form. Marco ------- From: "Leon Heller" Date: Thu Jul 26, 2001 12:54 am Subject: Re: [taigtools] OT: Metal Bending (long) There's a good description of how to do this sort of thing in Model Engineering, by Peter Wright. You use a piece of 3/4" square steel bar with a radius filed on one edge as a bending bar in the vice, an aluminium block and a hammer. If you do the bending in the correct order it should come out right, and you won't need a machine. Leon Leon Heller, G1HSM Tel: +44 1327 359058 My web page: http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller ------- From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Date: Thu Jul 26, 2001 2:17 pm Subject: Re: [taigtools] OT: Metal Bending (long) I find that the flat wide sheetmetal bending visegrips work great for small bending jobs. If you have a Workmate vise/table, you can slip angle iron in the jaws and use it for fairly wide bends with hammer and block. See our web pages http://www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 23:57:22 EDT From: wa9gobx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: form tools info needed Hello group: It has been a long time since I have checked in. Last month I took my 10 yr. Old to the henry ford green field village. There they have an old fashioned machine shop set up and they let you knock out a little brass candlestick [1+1/2 in. Long], using a brown&sharp 1917 turret lathe for $3.00. It was worth it for me as I never have used a turret setup before. I would like to set this up with my 10 inch atlas for making french horn and trumpet mouth pieces. What they do is stick a brass rod through the center of the spindle, then plunge a form tool into the right end to form the top. Then they have a form tool to shape out the whole fancy out side shape [one operation there] and use a parting tool to cut it off. Then a fast pass across the grinder to smooth out the bottom end. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to make a form tool for my mouth piece project. I will have to form the outside shape, drill it to #14 ctr [venturi], plunge in a special shaped cup from the tail stock side, and then from the other side make the 'back bore' which goes from the little 'horn' end to the narrow venturi that meets the cup about midway up from both ends. ?? Thank you for any ideas. Dan Busta ------- Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 00:08:27 EDT From: HUNLEY31x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: form tools info needed Dan: Is this what you want? http://www.grizzlyoutlet.com/fcgi-bin/lookup.fcgi/loo kup.cfg?q=item&kw=G1298 Hank ------- Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 01:50:58 EDT From: sleykinx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: form tools info needed 09/24/2001 wa9gobx~xxaol.com writes: > does anyone have any suggestions on how to make a form tool for Not sure what this will actually look like but formtools are fairly easy to make. A piece of spring steel from a car or truck leaf spring works well. My personal favorite is a piece of planer blade brazed to an appropriately sized (1/2") piece of square CRS. I grind a seat in the steel for the formtool and braze the formed bit to it. With spring steel you have to temper it but with the planer blades you just braze or silver solder and sharpen with a hone and go. Grind with whatever fits. Glenn Neff Medford, OR ------- Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 10:59:35 EDT From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: form tools info needed I know from nothing about trumpets. But, one way to make a form tool is to chuck up drill rod (silver steel, in England) and turn the profile of your desired shape, then saw, grind or cut in some manner the formed rod on the center. Harden, temper and touch up the edges with a stone. That is the way amateur clock makers create a tool to cut gear teeth in brass. John Meacham High Desert of California, Palmdale, Littlerock ------- Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 22:46:11 -0500 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Re: form tools info needed One comment on form tools is that they chatter like sin. Anything big enough to form a trumpet mouthpiece would probably either chatter worse than you could imagine, or else will stall the machine. That is a lot of metal to cut, and I don't think any regular Atlas can do it. I think you would have about a 1" or more cutting edge. Maybe a Colchester can do it. You could set up a tracer arrangement, and use a smaller tool. I don't know how to explain the ones I saw, but they are shown in some of the machine shop training books. Essentially there is a fixed profile that stops the crosslide. You keep manually feeding until you touch it at all points along the part. Sort of like a filing template. At that point you have duplicated the form in the part. Jerry ------- Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 00:40:05 EDT From: sleykinx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: form tools info needed 09/25/2001, jerdalx~xxcyberedge.net writes: > One comment on form tools is that they chatter like sin. > Maybe a Colchester can do it. I made one about 1.5" long to cut handles out of aluminum. You "walk" it in by shifting side to side just a bit till you get close to final then plunge on in. It works well on my 12" Atlas. I have it setup for about three to five degrees of back rake. Glenn Neff Medford, OR ------- Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 21:13:08 EDT From: wa9gobx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: form tools info needed Thanks for input, that's exactly what a machinist ham radio buddy told me this morning, about the chatter and that the atlas is too small. thanks dan ------- oldtools digest Subject: Bending Brass Rod From: "Croxton Gordon" Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 11:41:52 -0500 Gentle Galoots: I need to bend some 3/16 inch brass rod at about a right angle. I don't have enough to experiment with, so before I start mashing it in a vise, I thought I'd put the question before the group. Should I heat it with a torch first, and, if so, to a certain color? I have a home-handyperson torch, no Mapp gas or the stuff the Big Boys use. OT content: I'm making a music stand for my cellist brother, and he wants a hook to hang his bow on. I want to make a slide-out brass hook that's captured in the music-holder part. Though I've killed some electrons with the lathe and neanderbuddy, the sliding dovetails for the tripod base are all saw and chisel, and the three cyma legs are all spokeshave and rasp. Pretty walnut. Wish me luck. It's about to kill me. The design is from an article in an old FW magazine. Cheers, Croxton Eastville, Virginia USA, on Virginia's Eastern Shore ------- Subject: Re: Bending Brass Rod From: Richard.Wilsonx~xxsalvesen.com Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 17:14:11 +0000 It depends on how tight you need the bend to be whether you bend it hot or cold. Brass is easy to snap when cold if you're going for a right angle, so even if you bend it cold, heat to dull red and allow it to cool slowly first to anneal it. If you go for a hot bend, work out how to prevent it chilling as you place into the vise. You probably don't want the vise jaws to mark the work either, so maybe some sacrificial hardwood jaws would be good. Then too ( and I haven't done this in this way ) you could drill a hole to size and depth in the hardwood (allow for expansion a bit) and when the metal is hot, drop one end down the hole to depth, and pull the bend over using pliers, and finish with hammer blows on the bend to tighten it - use softening or you'll mark the metal - again, hardwood with or without a groove should do. Ignore the smoke and flame from the wood, and consider that your hole will be charred and become too large. Using a vise alone is OK, but you need to rehearse - heat, carefully hang up or put down blowtorch, into vise, tighten same, pull the bend over, pick up hammer and softening - a bit of whacking, etc etc Bon Chance Richard Wilson Not the best smith on the list. . . ------- Subject: Re:Bending Brass Rod From: Scott Quesnelle Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 17:48:42 +0000 (GMT) Copper alloys (brass,bronze) are not as forgiving as ferrous ones. They work harden quickly when cold (Bend a piece copper wire back and forth a few times and it will snap, iron wire takes a fair bit longer, if at all). If it is heated too high, it crumbles. When doing brass work, only go for a dull red in a dim room, any higher and I run into trouble. A normal propane torch is good. I prefer cold work with a large number of annealings. I anneal by bringing it to a dull red/orange and plunging it into a mixture of vinegar and water. For your small piece I would get some wet cloth, wrap it around the base. Clamp that into the vise. Slowly heat just the area for the bend, when you get a dull red in a dim room. Start with a very light hammer, just tap the other end repeatedly. When you are done, you can harden it by bringing it back to a dull red and letting it cool slowly like air hardening steel, but that is probably unneccessary for your needs. You will need to polish it afterwards. OT content: I do most of my metal working with old hammers and a nice old anvil. Also very handy to make things like the beautiful planes that Wayne Anderson and other constantly toss out as if they were nothing. Scott Quesnelle ------- Subject: RE: Bending Brass Rod From: "Peter McBride" Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 22:39:39 +1100 Croxton and GG's: I have been hand working non-ferrous metal 6 days a week for 30 years, and occasionally use brass to make galootish tools. I've listened to, and read plenty about annealing brass and some have recommend quenching in water. I recommend heating up to a dull cherry red, making certain the metal has been held long enough for it to be heated all the way through, then cooling it (or to be precise quenching) in AIR. To show the difference I did a test on three pieces of 1/4 inch (6mm Jeff) ordinary round brass rod. I cut 3 pieces about 2 inches long, and heated 2 of then to cherry red, dropped one into cold water, and allowed the other to cool in air. I hand rolled them through my flat jeweller's rollers until they started to crack. No surprises the un-annealed piece cracked early at 3.8mm, the water cooled at 3.0mm, and the air cooled piece didn't crack even at 2.6mm, although it was getting seriously hard. (Sorry about the mm, but that is what my gauge says.) This probably isn't the most rigorous scientific test, but if I showed what I had just done to any of the 12 apprentices I have trained, and they decided that quenching my material in water was a better idea...well ...a shame you can't thrash apprentices any more. I took some pictures of the brass test pieces and put them on my web site. http://www.petermcbride.com/brass_test/ So back to bending 3/16 rod, just heat it up in the area where you want to bend it. Let it cool, and if the piece is long enough you should be able to bend it with you hands, and it will bend in the area you just *selectively annealed*. You won't get anywhere near enough work into it to crack it. (You would be able to wind it onto a 1/2 inch rod and make a spiral to cut into rings) If it isn't long enough for that, drill a 3/16 inch hole in the end grain of 2 pieces of hardwood and make a pair of long levers. Then bend it around a steel former, a round rod for instance, stuck in the vice. Another of Dad's famous quotes, *with a lever long enough my boy, you could lift the world* Regards Peter McBride In Melbourne, Australia ------- Subject: RE: Bending Brass Rod From: "Meltsner, Kenneth" Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 10:06:36 -0500 Darn, you had to bring in practical experience just when we were starting to have fun.... It's a pretty good test, by the way. Typical simple ASTM-style* test for ductility is bending the strip around a mandrel of known size, but since we're not looking for a go/no-go result, your approach is better. My only change might be to heat the entire piece rather than a section -- the rod may be self-quenching a bit if only part is heated. The slowest cooling rates require heating the whole piece and burying it in an insulating material. [When I worked at an Army arsenal, they told me about the good old days of casting cannon barrels. After the casting had solidified, they'd dig a trench in the dirt floor, put the cannon in it, fill the trench back up, and let it cool for a week or so. This was the same site that used to inspect tank armor plate by etching it with a floor mop and a bucket full of etchant -- not exactly subtle.] Ken * American Society for Testing Materials -- independent, non-governmental group that develops and standardizes tests for materials, from steel to kid's crayons. ------- Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 23:31:21 -0400 From: Paul Anderson Subject: Spinning on a Taig?! I was looking over Nicholas Carter's website, and saw this: http://www.cartertools.com/ntaig32.jpg Spinning on a taig?! Do my eyes deceive me? How well did it work? I have to wonder how on earth it was rigid enough to pull that off. Paul Anderson ------- Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 08:35:42 +0100 From: Steve Blackmore Subject: Re: Spinning on a Taig?! Easily I would imagine on Aluminium or Copper, you just stop and re-anneal when it work hardens. I've done some occasionally (not on a Taig) and it's surprising how little force is needed to form the metal. The only thing that would put me off is a fair amount of force is needed between the tailstock and head bearings to hold the work securely so it doesn't slip and Taig head bearings are not taper rollers. Using something like wet and dry paper glued to the holding blocks helps a lot, as does a revolving centre on the tailstock. Steve Blackmore ------- Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 11:35:00 -0700 From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Subject: Re: Spinning on a Taig?! The trick was that I used about 30 ga. aluminum, so the forces involved were very light. I used soft aluminum so I didn't have to anneal, and completed the very simple spinning in one chucking. When I had to do production I moved the whole operation to my Jet920 as it was more comfortable and I could get much better leverage and use the variable speed motor to advantage. I think for smaller spinnings (the ones I did were about 4" dia) you could use the Taig to great advantage. It is easy to make chucks from wood screwed to the woodturners faceplate or made from the 1132 blank arbor. I forget how I adapted the live center (boy those older pictures on my site suck) but it just took a little head scratching to get enough pressure between the chuck and the pressure pad. ------- Subject: Re: Wire Question [Oldtools list] From: JTWadx~xxaol.com Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 17:27:12 EDT Frank Sronce asked: << I need to replace the thin wire used to slice the cheese, but I don't have any idea what this kind of wire is called or where to purchase it. >> Top string from a steel stringed guitar should work OK, and would be available at your neighborhood music establishment. John Wadsworth, in Delhi, NY ------- Subject: Re: Wire Question From: Ken Meltsner Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 17:47:48 -0500 I believe hard steel wire is usually called piano wire and should be available in several thicknesses at a good hardware store. Which means you might be better off with the guitar string since good hardware stores are getting rare. You could also look for fine stainless steel wire to avoid rust problems although it's likely to be weaker than piano wire. Don't cut it with diagonal cutters, by the way, unless you like nicks on their cutting edges. I'm not sure as to the "best" way to cut it. You could try filing a little scratch or notch (for a stress concentrator) and bending it back and forth, or just use pliers to kink it and bend it there. Ken ------- Subject: Re: Wire Question From: "Peter Huisman" Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 06:55:09 +0800 You will require a stainless wire. A musical instrument string such as the B string for a Guitar may be suitable. You may also find a length of stainless welding wire in the right gauge will suffice. Peter in Perth ------- Subject: Re: Wire Question From: scott grandstaff Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 19:52:26 -0700 Frank, you need a guitar B string, (.011 or a bit more) available at every music store in the world for 50 cents or less. Save the extra DAMHIKT Now, what you're going to find after you try it the usual way is, that you can't put enough tension on it to make a really sweet slicer. You need it truly taught. So what you have to do is secure one end well, then take a pair of pliers to the other end and hold the wire over a candle or something to heat it. When it gets just hot enough it'll stretch and you can wrap it around the other screw lickety split. When it cools a second later, it'll be taught enough to really slice some cheeze. Shhh, this is a trade secret. yours, Scott Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools:http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html ------- Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 02:24:55 -0000 From: "neilalbert2001" Subject: Making punch and die sets I would like to get some info on what would be required to create a punch and die to cut an elliptical arc on the end of a 3/4" flat strip of some material. I have already been advised that the material I would like to use for the application, Nylon, would probably too difficult, requiring extremely close tolerances for a thickness of 1/8". Nylon is the material of choice, since it can be easily dyed with RIT dye, but I can possibly settle for something else if it means I could use a small arbor press for stamping the part which is a 2" long x 3/4" wide strip meant to slip behind someone's belt to support a device which weighs about 3 pounds. I need to make several hundred of these. Earlier I had planned on milling the radius, if necessary, but stamping/punching would be a lot faster. Thanks Neil ------- Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 23:18:58 -0500 From: "Jerry G" Subject: Re: Making punch and die sets If you want to do it right, buy a die set, which consists of a lower and upper die shoe, made of a good grade of cast iron, with steel guide pins and bushings... You mount your punch block with Allen Cap screws and dowels (usually on the upper die shoe). After you locate the die block, (usually on the lower shoe), you pin it in position with dowel pins. You will need a guide for the nylon strip to orient it to the punch and die. Nylon can be punched with no problem. Alternate is to use abrasive machining and sand the radius in. Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 16:37:14 -0000 From: "Ron" Subject: Sheet metal machine use...??? [Prints_and_Plans group] I just bought a Grizzly 12" 3 in 1 sheet metal machine (brake, shear, roll). I know how to use the various functions alright, but I do not know how to use the roll grooves to form wire or rolled edges. Can anyone here help me? veeguy ------- Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 19:35:53 +0200 From: "Frank Hasieber" Subject: RE: Sheet metal machine use...??? Hi, you might find what you are looking for here. http://www.tinmantech.com/ Frank. ------- Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 09:39:29 -0600 From: "WDSmith" Subject: Sheet metal machine use...??? Ron, I hate to bear bad news but the answer is, "You don't." The grooves are for bending wire, not forming wire edges. Wire edges are formed with hammer and dolly or a tipping die/tool/machine and finished by hammer and dolly. I understand it can also be done with a bead roller but have yet to do it or see it done. Check out metalshapers.org or take a look at my latest adventure at http://www.smithsff.us under Edmond metal meet if this kind of stuff is your bag. WDSmith ------- Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 01:34:12 -0000 From: "Ron" Subject: Sheet metal question Thanks for the tinman link. I had been there, but missed the pertinent section. I now know the grooves are not for forming a wire edge, but to clear an already made wire edge or to roll wire into hoops. I do highly recommend this 12" 3 in 1 machine ($198.-)if you do any sheetmetal work! Today I built a furnace body for melting aluminum, a dustpan for my lathe, and chip shields for my mill. All of this was made with about $2.- worth of sheetmetal. veeguy ------- Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 23:01:39 -0000 From: "feraleng" Subject: Re: Sheet metal machine use...??? For those interested in forming machines take a look at http://www.mittlerbros.com/ good selection of equipment and plenty of pictures, I have not had any dealings with them, just found the site while looking for swager rolls. Scott UK. ------- NOTE TO FILE: This last site above has a lot of reference tables and information for visitors. See their menu item "Helpful Information." The site for making an inexpensive (really) sheet metal bender in the next message is huge and contains invaluable gardening and other tips. Well worth visiting for the whole family. You will get a lot of useful ideas and save bundles of money. (Really!) ------- Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 08:22:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Smith Subject: Re: bender [atlas_craftsman] [Sheet Metal Bender] > saw an old magazine article on somebody's website for building > a small sheet metal bender yesterday and now I can't find it. See: http://www.selfsufficientish.com/bender.htm Don ------- Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 22:48:13 -0400 From: "Earl Bower" Subject: Re: Re: bender Mark: Try groups.yahoo.com/group/homebuilt_tools/files/ groups.yahoo.com/group/homebuilt_tools2/files/Machine%20Shop/ Popular Mechanics bending brake groups.yahoo.com/group/homeshopprojects/files/Metalworking%20Projects/ groups.yahoo.com/group/Prints_and_Plans/files/Shop%20Tools/ has a bending brake.zip in this section (don't know what magazine). groups.yahoo.com/group/Prints_and_Plans_2/files/Homemade%20Shop%20Tools/ This one has a different one. Hope this helps you. Earl Bower www.bowermachineandtool.com ------- Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 12:49:57 -0000 From: "yrotc78u212" Subject: bender again not the one I`m looking for but will do. Thanks for the help. http://www.vansairforce.org/tools/ mark ------- Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 08:42:51 -0700 From: William Abernathy Subject: Re: bender again [For] the 1958 Popular Mechanics plans. This link will take you straight to 'em. http://www.vintageprojects.com/machine-shop/Press-Brake.pdf W ------- Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 12:17:19 -0800 From: "BRUCE ROGERS" Subject: Brass Plating - has anyone done this? [atlas_craftsman -- NOTE: msgs here from this thread will follow the brass bending comments] Has anyone ever done any brass electro-plating over steel? I am trying to duplicate a very unique 7 inch brass drawer pull for an expensive piece of furniture. I would like to turn the pull out of steel and bend it to the right shape. Then I would brass plate it. I tried making it out of brass. It looked beautiful and polished prior to trying to bend it. It broke immediately when I tried to bend it. I tried heating it before bending -- interesting experiment but it just took less force to break it (immediately). So, I'm thinking of making it out of a more ductile metal like aluminum or steel. But I want to end up having it look like brass. I saw a company that provides a kit to brass plate but it is around $250 and is out of my budget. Suggestions on experiences with brass plating of aluminum or steel would be welcome. Bruce ------- Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 12:44:12 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Subject: Re: Brass Plating - has anyone done this? Can't help you with plating but brass anneals differntly than steel. You heat brass and quench it while hot to anneal it. ------ Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 21:20:09 -0800 From: Michael Fagan Subject: Re: Brass Plating - has anyone done this? I would try plating it before I would make it out of aluminum. In my experience, it is very difficult to bend aluminum successfully without very carefully controlled heating and cooling. Otherwise it tends to have severe metal fatigue that actually forms cracks in the bend area. I don't know of much of a demand for electroplating of brass, though, and this is what probably makes the cost high. Most people do the opposite, where they nickle or chrome plate over brass. ------- Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 23:42:37 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Brass Plating - has anyone done this? Michael Fagan wrote: >In my experience, it is very difficult to bend aluminum successfully It depends on the material. I have bent 1/8" 2024 by heating until soap burns deep brown on the bend line, then plunging into a stream of cold water. 3003 bends VERY nicely, and is the material of choice for bending. I think there is a 5054 or something like that that also bends nicely. Jon ------- Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 09:07:41 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Brass Plating - has anyone done this? Incidentally, SOME brass is quite workable, since cartridge brass is drawn rather a long way. As someone said, it starts as a sheet of thick brass. The fact that it is a sheet PROVES it is workable, since it was rolled... But, in forming a cartridge, the brass may be annealed 12 times. So if you have a material that is hard to form, bend a little, anneal, bend a little, anneal again... JT -------- Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 13:15:22 -0800 From: "BRUCE ROGERS" Subject: Re: Brass Plating - has anyone done this? Thanks Mert. I got a similar suggestion from Michael from this group. I tried a sample piece (one of the pieces left over from the original disaster) and I heated it up with a propane torch and then dropped it into a bucket. I stuck it in a vice and bent it fairly easily. I looked and couldn't find any stress cracks. It bent just fine. Both of you guys gave me GREAT ADVICE! THANKS!!! This Yahoo group is great. Mert, you mention that I might want to re-anneal it after I bend it. Is that in case I need to bend it in a sharper radius as a secondary operation or is just to give it more strength long-term? Bruce ------- Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 17:56:37 -0500 From: "mertbaker" Subject: Re: Brass Plating - has anyone done this? As you bend it, it work hardens. It may bend easily at first, and then become stiff. If this happens, merely re-anneal it. The first anneal may well be suffcient; you will find out by trying. Mert ------- Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2006 00:24:45 -0600 From: Michael Vanecek Subject: Spinning Metal [taigtools] Has anyone tried to spin metal on their Taig lathe? I may try making a mold and spinning something out of aluminum or copper just to see how it works. Cheers, Mike http://www.taroandti.com/ http://www.mjv.com/ ------- Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2006 23:41:53 -0800 From: Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein Subject: Re: Spinning Metal http://www.cartertools.com/ntaig32.jpg http://www.cartertools.com/ntaig33.jpg http://www.cartertools.com/ntaig34.jpg Yup, works pretty well...note use of riser blocks... Now I just have to figure out what that block attached to my tailstock is - can it really have been so long ago I've actually forgotten some things I've done to my Taig? See our homepage at www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------ Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 18:13:07 -0600 From: "Callcbm" Subject: RE: Spinning Metal > Has anyone tried to spin metal on their Taig lathe? I may try making a > mold and spinning something out of aluminum or copper just to see how > it works...Cheers, Mike Look at enjenjoesproducts.com They have some polymer grease for metal spinning that I tried and it works well. The Taig lathe works good, but I had problems with heating the metal with regular lube; tried this and was able to make what I wanted. Randy ------- Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2006 02:53:36 -0000 From: "davideggy2" Subject: Re: Spinning Metal I haven't tried it with a taig but I worked for a pewtersmith years ago and I regularly spun 12" tall 2" dia vases from 10" dia .035 pewter discs. It was so cool to watch it bend and flex and then lay down on the form. Then take a nice slow even pass at high speed and watch it smooth right out. Very little polishing needed, even tho his products were all mirror finish. I understand copper and aluminum are a whole different ballgame to spin. If you can find a supplier of pewter discs, you'll have a much nicer experience spinning for the first time. But I must warn you, spinning is probably the most difficult skill I ever learned. But it was one of the most rewarding. I think we used a stick of something that was mostly lard as a lube. We had to lock it up at night to keep the mice away from it. Have fun. Start small. Spend some time getting a mirror polish on the tool you use to spin. We had a really hefty old spinning lathe, tools with handles that came back under the armpit, and really used the body weight. Like I said, have fun. Dave ------- Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 01:35:35 -0600 From: Michael Vanecek Subject: Re: Re: Spinning Metal Wally and Otter wrote: > I'll chime in on this one. If I remember correctly from my old shop > class, we used paraffin wax as a lube for spinning aluminum. I won't be doing extreme spinning - at least to start off with. Kinda want to experiment and see what's possible. Paraffin is something I already use to seal my cuttings - so I have plenty handy and will probably try some of that for starters on some aluminum. Shoulda figured that for every spinner, there'd be three or four lube preferences. :) At least now I have more of an idea of what's needed and where to direct my experimentation. Thanks a million! I'm very happy that this can be done on my Taig. Be well, Mike ------- bending jig [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "glenndroberts" nohilowx~xxaol.com Date: Thu Aug 17, 2006 8:36 pm (PDT) > Look for "ornamental iron work" in Yahoo group listings. Art This may be OT for this group, but I'm having trouble finding info on how to build a small, home-shop jig to bend 1/2" wide by 1/8" thick flat stock into uniform "curlicues" for making wrought-iron style railings and decorations...Any help or re-direction would be appreciated. Thanks Glenn ------- Re: bending jig Posted by: "ejthomas" ejthomasx~xxshentel.net Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 5:20 am (PDT) Actually, as an ornamental blacksmith, I can't endorse this. Properly made, they are "SCROLLS" not curlicues. And I haven't seen any cold-bent fabricated "curlicues" yet that weren't ugly as sin. Now if you want to know how to make them properly, I can help. Ed Thomas ------- Re: bending jig Posted by: "nohilowx~xxaol.com" Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:34 pm (PDT) Any help is appreciated, just remember, I am trying to learn how to crawl and I fear you want me to run a marathon.. Glenn ------- Re: bending jig Posted by: "Art Volz" volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:13 pm (PDT) Glen-- I think Ed is trying to tell you something. It's sorta like learning how to eat spaghetti rolled-up on a fork...without getting tined in the forehead. :-) To bend iron or steel more easily, you have to get it in a hot more plastic state. There are various ways of doing this. One of the cheapest and easiest ways for heating small pieces of steel orange hot is with that olde tyme pump-up gasoline blowtorch. NIB gasoline blow torches are available on eBay if you spend some time looking. I bought a brand new Sears blow torch last year for less than $20. Gasoline blow torches don't burn as hot as Acetylene, but they pump lots of BTU's into the metal being heated. Then there are some tools. Appropriate hammers, tongs, and an anvil come to mind. There are some very good beginners books on the black art of black- smithing. You need to "pump" yourself up with the skills and knowledges of smithing by reading several of these books...perhaps even spending some coins and buying one that you take a fancy to...for your nite stand...or your ivory stallion room. "Hi Ho Silver!" & "Ahhhhhh...Cisco!". "Ahhhhh...Pancho!" Everything is easy...until you try to do it. Art (Houston) ------- Re: bending jig Posted by: "mariol.vitalex~xxatt.net" Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 3:27 pm (PDT) O.K. Ed, .... so how DO you make 'em "properly"? :-) I really do want to know since I am in the process of "resussitating" an old cast iron forge. Contact me off line (mariol.vitalex~xxatt.net) and we can chat. Mario ------- Re: bending jig Posted by: "Irby Jones" irbyratx~xxcox.net Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 5:43 pm (PDT) Glenn, I'm certainly not a blacksmith like Ed, but long ago (36 years probably) I made a bending jig to do what you're wanting to do. I was making scrolls for the arms of a lamp, but it should work about the same. First I made the shape I wanted in the same flat iron (I was using 3/4" x 1/8"), using my oxy-acetylene torch to heat the iron red hot to bend it. I made up some slotted tools to grab and hold the iron as I bent it. It took a while to get it the way I wanted. Then I welded that scroll to a piece of angle iron. Obviously, I welded on the side away from where the flat iron strip would be. I added a tab spaced 1/8" over from the "start" (inside) of the scroll to hold the iron strip in place at the start of the bending. My scroll didn't wrap around so far that I couldn't get the flat iron strip into the "starting" position, if that makes sense. I heated the iron strip red hot then bent it around the scroll jig. It wouldn't do right if I tried it cold. I didn't know anything about blacksmithing at the time (still don't), but I made a bunch of these scrolls for several lamps I made as gifts. They turned out nice. I still have the jig around somewhere, but couldn't find it tonight. That's a young engineer's way to bend a lot of identical scrolls, not necessarily a blacksmith's way. It would be nice to hear how Ed would do it. Then again, I know another blacksmith in VA, closer than Ed is to me, who could also show me - Roger Smith. Ed knows Roger. Just to make this OT post more on topic, the last time I saw that jig it was in the same corner of my garage as my Logan 8 shaper. Irby ------- Re: bending jig Posted by: "xlch58x~xxswbell.net" Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 6:07 pm (PDT) Irby Jones wrote: > That's a young engineer's way to bend a lot of identical scrolls, > not necessarily a blacksmith's way. I have been smithing for about twenty years and converse with a lot of other smiths and that IS the preffered way for production scrolls unless you want to go to a scroll bender ala Hossfield. For one or two, then you do them by hand since it is so quick and easy. Harbor Freight sells a metal bender and used to sell a scroll bender attachment for it as well. They don't list the Scrolling attachment anymore. I have one, it works ok, but the hand made scrolls look so much better: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=38471 Here is a site that sells the bender and attachment: http://www.toolsplus1.com/compactbend.htm The nice thing about Irby's approach is that it allows you more control of what the finished product will look like and will also allow you to work the end a bit as well. So Irby, what brand of engineer are you? Charles ------- Re: bending jig Posted by: "Irby Jones" irbyratx~xxcox.net Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 6:55 pm (PDT) Cool, Charles. It's nice to know I did it right after all way back then! > So Irby, what brand of engineer are you? Aerospace, from good ole Va Tech in 1967. Retired 3+ years ago to take care of aging pet rats, but only Art and my family knows that! Now I've taken in aging machinery, too. Irby in VA ------- Re: bending jig Posted by: "ejthomas" ejthomasx~xxshentel.net Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:35 pm (PDT) Glenn: As suggested by Irby, you can make a scroll and weld it to a plate. This is generally preferable to the benders because scrolls should be made to meet the design, not designed to meet the limitations of the bender. It really only works with hot metal, though. Scrolling is a developed skill in forging. It is not trivial, but neither is it terribly difficult once someone (good) shows you, and you practice a bit. Fabricated, cold-bent scrolls look like crap for several reasons. The most glaring fault is that the material is boring and uniform and lifeless. Milled stock has four sides and no reflective surfaces to break up the monotony. By working the steel hot (wrought), it develops character. The next most offensive problem is the end of the scroll... the end inside the loop from which the scroll is developed. To be interesting, this HAS to be part of the continuous curve and has to end gracefully. If you simply cold bend it, it will be an abrupt squared end, that has a flat segment so that it can be trapped or clamped in a jig. By hot forging it into a taper, fishtail, split, etc... the scroll grows outward the same way you see in nature in snails and sea shells and so on. The other end must do something also... not just stop because it happens to be the right length. There are many different scrolls. At their best, they are part of the project, not just ornamentation. They developed as a beautiful solution for support elements; structurally sound, not just tacked on to take up space. Hot forging is alive and well and there are groups everywhere who would be happy to share what they can at monthly meetings. As with every craft/art the range of skill is quite wide. If you like the look and feel of iron, try your hand at it. The basic requirements are actually quite modest. Forges (gas or coal) are pretty easy to make and hammers and anvils are available everywhere. The most expensive tool is usually the anvil, though substitutes to get your feet hot... I mean wet... can be made... such as using RR track for an anvil and so on. That's about enough hijacking of the shaper group for blacksmithing. I usually check into: http://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/ a few times a day. You can usually get your questions answered there as well as read tips from the past. I chime in sometimes, though not as much as I used to. Shaper topic: I have a 16" Steptoe and occasionally use it to make things for my black- smithing shop. I expect to be shaping a 4" x 4" x 8" power hammer die with it sometime soon... whenever I can get a break from my forging work. I also have a slotter, but haven't made anything with it. I expect to use it to make some square holes in some fireplace screen doors soon. I love the older machines because they work hard and I'm not afraid to learn on them. My Steptoe was made during WWII. Where do you live? Ed ------- Re: bending jig Posted by: "nohilowx~xxaol.com" Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 10:52 pm (PDT) Irby: Thanks for the input. Since my quest began for a design, I have run into a few websites with jigs made just as you describe. Seems to be a very common item in some fab shops. I will probably put one or two together just as you describe. After my father, a welder, retired, he began putting ornamental iron together in his homeshop, for our home, his friends, our neighbors, etc, (anyone who saw the work, wanted some...) He made some jigs out of solid 1" plate, cutting them out with a oxy/acet torch and then shaping with a grinder until he had a solid template around which to bend his iron. His were heavy...yours sound a bit more lightweight. I was a teenager, and of course, ignored whatever he was doing...(HA). Now I wish I had paid a little bit more attention to the details of the shape of his forms, and the different sizes. He bent his iron cold and the results were very good. My quest has revealed several "compact benders" commercially available which do quite the same thing. I am now looking closely at them to see if I can reproduce the functions of these benders in my on shop. Some are quite expensive, others not so. The expensive ones do several sizes and options and the inexpensive are not so versatile. However, if I can mimic their forms enough, maybe I can produce a passable scroll.... I've also wondered if it was possible to cut a template or form out of a hardwood and be able to bend (cold) smaller rod/bar around it. What do you think? Glenn ------- Re: bending jig Posted by: "nohilowx~xxaol.com" Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 10:52 pm (PDT) Ed: Can't argue with you about the difference between a hot formed scroll versus a cold rolled one. However, for my needs at the moment...making an arbor for my daughter that will be covered up with a rosebush very quickly, I am going to build a basic straight welded tube structure and add scrolls for interest and diversity. It is a long promised project that I HAVE to get done. Perhaps after that I can explore YOUR world. Sounds interesting. I have 35 years experience as a welder/fitter so working with hot metal is really no big thing. Just looking for this help has opened up a new world for me and I am looking forward to exploring it. I am Hillsboro, Oregon, about 15 miles west of Portland. I'll check out the link. Thanks. Glenn ------- Re: bending jig Posted by: "ejthomas" ejthomasx~xxshentel.net Date: Sat Aug 19, 2006 5:45 am (PDT) Glenn, http://www.blacksmith.org/ Look at that link. You should be able find some member close enough to you. You will be amazed at the what you can do with just a bit of supplementing the skills you already have. ------- Two line tip on using files [Min_Int_Comb_Eng] Posted by: "David Everett" deverett2003x~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Sun Feb 11, 2007 12:35 am ((PST)) Hi Mike: Just a quick tip for anyone who still uses files: I had to file off the machining marks in a recess in 1/2" plate. After getting the recess good and flat with the end mill, it ended up dome shaped after I had attacked it with a file. So, to restore it to a flat surface, I clamped a piece of flat steel on either side of the job level with where the flat face needed to go and they provided a guide for the file. A few minutes work and job's a good 'un. Probably old hat to all your experts, but lone hands learn the long and hard way! Regards Dave The Emerald Isle ------- Re: belt guard / Side Bar/ Back on track [sherline] Posted by: "Jerry G" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:07 am ((PDT)) Talking about slip rollers. There is a great tool available for precision bending of PE* * = Photo Etched material. Frequently used to super detail models. Go to: http://ausfwerks.com//store/ausfdesign/main.html Check out the Fender Bender. No commercial connection. A really fine tool. Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Re: belt guard / Side Bar/ Back on track Posted by: "Charles Fox" cafox513x~xxgte.net Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:23 am ((PDT)) Or take a look at the one car modelers swear by: http://www.thesmallshop.com/ It's called Hold and Fold. ------- Re: belt guard / Side Bar/ Back on track Posted by: "Jerry G" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 6:30 am ((PDT)) Hi Mr. Fox, I know about the Hold and Fold and the other popular one. I think it is called Etch Mate. The Fender Bender runs rings around both of them. Mr. Glickstein ------- Re: belt guard / Side Bar/ Back on track Posted by: "David Clark" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 7:10 am ((PDT)) The Fender Bender looks more like the box brakes that I'm familiar with, in that it is hinged, and backs up the metal on both sides of the bend line. This, it seems to me, should produce a more uniform and symmetrical bend. My experience is that press brakes produce the nicest bends. A press brake and dies would be a lot more effort to make, however, and my need is not that great. I've seen die sets that attach to a bench vise to emulate a press brake, but this seems a little kludgey to me. Anybody tried one? (Saw one at the Harbor Freight store. Wasn't impressed with the quality. Had to brush the rice off it, if you know what I mean.) One of these years, or as soon as I complete the procurement of that elusive Round Tuit, I'll see if I can't reverse engineer a Fender Bender. Too much fun to have, not enough time to have it. DC ------- Re: belt guard / Side Bar/ Back on track Posted by: "Pierre Coueffin" pcoueffinx~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 9:28 am ((PDT)) > I've seen die sets that attach to a bench vise > to emulate a press brake, but this seems a little kludgey to me. > Anybody tried one? You don't mean one of these: http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p= 32011&cat=1,43456,43407&ap=1 do you? A little crude for modelling, but mine works fine when I need a bent piece of steel to make a bracket or support. You can bend heavier stuff more precisely with some forging blocks, a torch and a big hammer, but the vice is quicker for some things. ------- Re: belt guard / Side Bar/ Back on track Posted by: "David Clark" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 12:17 pm ((PDT)) No, that looks more useful than what I remember seeing at Harbor Freight. I just checked their catalog and can't find the one I meant. Perhaps it was a limited offering. But what I have in mind is for finer work. For example: I want to make a firebox, lamp and chimney, for a Stirling engine I made a while ago. I'd like to cut, bend, and roll thin brass accurately enough to butt and silver solder, then polish to nearly invisible seams. Neatness counts. For the heavy stuff, sure, I'm with you. When I need an S hook or a gate latch I want nothing more than a bench vise, hammer, and some MAPP. Blacksmithing with a torch is one of the most fun aspects of the metalworking hobby. One of these years I may even set up a forge. Too much fun, etc..... DC ------- Re: belt guard / Side Bar/ Back on track Posted by: "Alan KM6VV" KM6VVx~xxSBCglobal.net Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 2:53 pm ((PDT)) Hi David, I might have missed part of this discussion. I have a need for a small sheet metal brake for bending some small 1" wide aluminum .062 brackets. I was at Harbor Freight this Saturday, and picked up the 39103 18" bending brake. OK, typical caveats on Chinese imports. But it's about what I was contemplating building from the Gingery (sp) plans. A friend has built one, and I tried it out a few weeks ago. I bent my brackets simple enough, so I'm satisfied. But I am interested in this "other" Press Brake mentioned. I didn't stay long enough to look around, as I usually get my tools elsewhere. Alan KM6VV P.S. cost of the little brake I bought? About $900 worth of furniture (we HAD to go shopping for furniture that trip too). ------- NOTE TO FILE: The belt guard earlier conversation is found here in the Sherline Mods General file for 27 Sep, 2007. A safe, effective guard for dangerous parts of machines does not have to be pretty, but it does need to be there. -------