This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------ Here find user tips for forming or shaping metal by various methods. Simple metal forming is another skill that can assist the home machinist or metalworker, as well as many participating in other crafts or hobbies. There have not been a lot of messages in the groups I follow regularly about the subject of Sheet Metal Forming -- in its various types. Consequently I have added some information here from another small file I was keeping at home on spinning metal. Small-scale bending conversations of interest will also be included here. Some info is also being introduced from the OldTools group where the Galoots restore and repair and refurbish the metal and wood parts of some ordinary, as well as great, tools. So this file has been renamed to "Simple Metal Forming" to broaden its scope and hopefully capture more good tips and solutions for our needs. (And in some instances metal forming techniques might be applied to other materials.) There is also some information on winding springs. It will not go much into the intricacies of blacksmithing, a large subject already well covered on other web sites. There may be some mention here of annealing (softening) metal parts before and during a forming process to prevent work-hardening and cracking. Heat Treating info may be found in a file of that very same name on this site. This lack of forming discussion is a bit strange considering that metal- workers (and woodworkers for that matter) frequently form metal for all sorts of projects and accessories for their workshops. Either everyone already knows how to do it all, or everyone is faithfully sticking on-topic to the lathe or mill or shaper subjects of the individual group? Eventually someone will break down and ask their group about how to form this or that metal object, and this file will grow ;-) Some simple (simplistic) definitions follow to put us on the same track. "Spinning" is an operation on a sturdy lathe whereby a (usually) circular piece of sheet metal is held and spun (rotated) while being levered by a metal tool to change its shape from flat to 3-dimensional. An example would be spinning a flat disk of silver into the top part of a wine goblet. Or a piece of thin brass to make a bell shape. The process is helped by a piece of wood (like a 3D male master that is close to final shape) against which the metal is pushed/levered. "Bending" is an operation applied to solid or hollow metal of any initial shape. The most common bend is to 90-degrees. Any sequential combination of inside or outside bends, at any angle or curve, will require a bit of planning so that the current bent-shape does not interfere with a later bending operation. Even the 'simple' 90-degree bend in a solid, flat piece of metal has the complexity of allowing for some metal used up in the bend. If you wanted to make two 90-degree bends in a 3-inch-long piece of metal strap at one inch increments, the last leg would be shorter than one inch. How much shorter would depend on the thickness of the strap and the type of metal, and can be determined from a subject called Bending Allowance. Formulas are dandy, but an experiment with a sample scrap of the same metal will let you know positively how much extra length to allow for each type of bend. "Forming" is a non-specific term that could apply to any process here. It could refer to either of the above methods of reshaping metal, or to such methods as pressing or hammering into a hollow, or over a male shape. It could be manually powered or involve machines or hydraulic force. It could be stamping with dies, or making complex 3-dimensional curves in sheet metal with an English Wheel for a car fender. There are other industrial methods with fancy machinery and names beyond the scope of our purpose here. If you got to this file directly from my HOME PAGE, return there by using your browser's back button. BUT if you came to this file as the result of a web search engine, see many additional files on my home page Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html SAFETY WARNING BEWARE: DO NOT ASSUME that any subject matter or procedure or process is safe or correct or appropriate just because it was mentioned in a news/user group or was included in these files or on this site or on any other web site or was published in a magazine or book or video. Working with metals and machinery and chemicals and electrical equipment is inherently dangerous. Wear safety devices and clothing as appropriate. Remove watches, rings, and jewellery -- and secure or remove loose clothing -- before operating any machine. Read, understand and follow the latest operating procedures and safety instructions provided by the manufacturer of your machine or tool or product. If you do not have those most recent official instructions, acquire a copy through the manufacturer before operating or using their product. Where the company no longer exists, use the appropriate news or user group to locate an official copy. Be careful -- original instructions may not meet current safety standards. Updated safety information and operating instructions may also be available through a local club, a local professional in the trade, a local business, or an appropriate government agency. In every case, use your common sense before beginning or taking the next step; and do not proceed if you have any questions or doubts about any procedure, or the safety of any procedure. Follow all laws and codes, and employ certified or licenced professionals as required by those laws or codes. Hazardous tasks beyond your competence or expertise should also be contracted to professionals. Let's be really careful out there. (c) Copyright 2003 - 2016 Machining and Metalworking at Home The form of the collected work in this text file (including editing, additions, and notes) is copyrighted and this file is not to be reproduced by any means, including electronic, without written permission except for strictly personal use. ========================================================================== From: Date: Wed Jul 5, 2000 1:18pm Subject: Re: Spinning rest Hi all: A word about lubricant for those who plan to do spinning for the first time. Strangely, grease is not good enough, oil is not good enough, soap is not good enough, nor is any of the tailstock lubricants. The old time spinners used a thick mixture of fine soap shavings and motor oil. Scrape the soap bar with a knife and then chop the resulting shaving into corn meal size particles. Mix with a little oil to form a thick mixture. Us of this will usually cut the number of anneals in half. It allows the spinning tool to slide on the surface instead of trying to smear it. Spinning is shown in my last workshop video. Bill Smith http://horology.magnet.fsu.edu/wrsmith.htm ------- From: Jim Ash Date: Wed Nov 22, 2000 9:06pm Subject: Bride of making a small English Wheel (Long) An English wheel is one of the old techniques for forming sheet metal, probably second only to the mallet and shot bag. Sheet metal readily bends on one axis (simple curve) but not on more than one (compound curve) at the same time. Consider the difficulty of forming a single sheet to look like half a basketball (or an auto fender, or airplane wheel pants, or an airplane engine cowling, ...). Without cutting or welding; we're talking one piece here. The English wheel can do this. The English wheel in the normal configuration consists of a large 'C'-shaped frame, kinda like a big C-clamp. between the ends of the frame are two wheels called anvils. They are mounted so their edges turn into each other, like the old wringer washers. Usually the upper one is purely cylindrical, like a basic lathe turning. On a normal-sized wheel, the diameter of the upper anvil might be 8 inches up to maybe a foot (I've seen smaller machines for work like you're interested in doing. The concept is certainly scalable). The edge (length) of the cylinder is somewhere around 2-3 inches wide and finished smoothly. The bottom wheel is a little more complicated. If you took a basic lathe turning (diameter about 3 inches, length about 3 inches) and then used a radius dresser with a fairly large radius to 'round' the edge into a mild ellipsoid, you'd get a bottom anvil. Typically a wheel will come with a set of 4 or more anvils of roughly the same major diameter, but different radii (This is a little over- simplistic, because some anvils actually have a flat spot in the middle and radii on each end). If you consider a sheet of metal to be like a sheet of rubber, the two things you can do with it are to stretch it and shrink it. Using these, you can make all kinds of strange curves with it. Both materials have the same general mechanical properties, except the numbers are different (coefficients of elasticity, strengths, compressiong and deflection forces, etc). In normal practice, you leave the cylindrical wheel on top and select the anvil with the radius you want for the lower wheel. The machine has a screw mechanism attached to one of the anvils to be able to control the gap, but more importantly the pressure, between these two wheels. By feel, not by measurement. For basic operation of the machine (stretching), the drill is to set the gap to just under the thickness of the sheet metal you are trying to form, so the anvils apply pressure to the metal as you roll it back and forth between them manually. The pressure between the anvils squishes the metal and causes some of it to displace to the sides. Picture a hunk of cookie dough and what happens when you use a rolling pin on it. It spreads out and gets thinner. This is the essence of stretching. Now, when you learn how to control where (and how much) to perform this stretching, life get interesting. Picture taking a flat, circular piece of sheet metal and stretching it, but just in the middle. Because the metal in the center is stretched, but the rim isn't, the metal is going to find some other direction to displace to. It will form a hump. If you can control the curvature of the hump, you can create what would look like one of those 'baby moon' hub caps. It's actually kind of amazing how quickly and easily you can form these curves on a wheel. And because both anvils are smooth, they impart a smooth finish on the sheet as a side benefit. By selecting anvils of different radii, you can control the amount of area this pressure gets applied to. An anvil with a smaller radius will have less contact area and cause more pressure to be applied to a smaller area. This would be used to make more abrupt curves. A flatter anvil will cause the pressure to be more spread out and consequently make shallower curves. I know a sheet metal guy who buys big chunks of 3" CRS rod and turns his own anvils so he can get exactly the curvature he wants. If this isn't magic enough, you can also shrink with the wheel, too. Stretching happens all the time. Every auto accident (at least with metal cars) in which fenders are bent has stretched them. All those krinkles are metal that has been forced, by stretching, to go away from that smooth curve it started with. If you set you anvils just a bit wider than the metal thickness instead of a bit thinner, and run your fender through it, the anvils are going to bump up against the peaks and valleys first. This will cause them to flatten out and shrink the metal back to where it came from. You keep working the metal and bringing the anvils (and consequently the peaks and valleys) down until it's smooth. But no further, or you start stretching again. Shrinking is a touchier operation on the wheel than stretching. To get the shapes you want, sometimes you make a form, called a buck. This is a 3-D skeleton shape of the part you want, usually made from plywood. When you get close to final shape, you start running between your wheel and your buck and making little tweaks to the metal curvature to conform to the buck. This is metal work, folks, but not the kind with micrometers, motors, and surface plates. It's considered an art form by some. I just consider it magic. For those in attendance at the EAA airshow at Oshkosh, Wi. or the Sun 'n Fun in Lakeland Fl., there's always a tent in the hands-on area for sheet metal forming. You can walk up, grab a piece of scrap and play with one of these machines as long as you want, for the price of admission to the show. There are also seminars here and there that introduce this stuff in 2 or 3 day classes. Sorry about the verbosity. You asked for it, you got it. Jim Ash Winter Springs, Fl. ------- From: Date: Wed Nov 22, 2000 10:46pm Subject: Re: making a small English Wheel Jason: A small English wheel can be made using a arbor press as a frame and ball bearings for wheels. Good qaulity steel caster wheels will also work and can be machined to what ever shape you need. The parts you will need to convert the frame can be machined on a small lathe and mill. Jerry Kieffer ------- From: Date: Thu Nov 23, 2000 4:32pm Subject: Re: making a small English Wheel Jason: It makes no difference if the pressure is applied from the top or the bottom. On mine I apply pressure to the ram with two fine threaded rods on each side of the ram and a strap across the top. I tighten each nut on top of the strap equally and it works fine. Jerry Kieffer ------- From: "Marco C. Mason" Date: Wed Jul 25, 2001 3:52 pm Subject: OT: Metal Bending (long) Hey, gang -- Sorry for this long EMail, but I have a question that (may) need a picture. I'm a rank amateur, and haven't yet needed to bend any metal. For my new project, however, I'm going to need to. I need a pair of brackets, and I don't know how to make the bends. I've been considering purchasing a (cheap) metal brake from Horrible Freight (as one just opened in my area), but I don't know if I can build this bracket with it. So, here are three ASCII pictures. The first one is the planned sheet metal cutout, with the dots being the bend lines: +-------------+ / \ / . . \ / \ / . . \ / \ / . . \ / \ / . . \ / \ / . . \ + + | . . | |. . . . .+---------------+. . . . .| | | | | | | | | +---------+ +---------+ Next are two views (front & side) of the bracket I'm trying to make: +-------------+ | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |-------------| +--+ +--+ + |\ | \ | \ | \ | \ | \ | \ | \ | \ | \ | \ | \ | \ |+- - - - -+--+ +---------+ Since all the fold lines are 90 deg. up, I don't know how to make this thing. The way I imagine the metal brake working, I think I'd get interference on some bends, no matter which order I do them in. I'd love to be proven wrong. So how do people make brackets like this? marco ------- From: Stan Stocker Date: Wed Jul 25, 2001 5:57 pm Subject: Re: [taigtools] OT: Metal Bending (long) A "real" sheet metal brake AKA Box and Pan Brake typically has fingers that can be adjusted to allow existing bends to pass through between the clamping fingers. On cheap benders you have to cut slots in the clamp plate with a hacksaw. If the metal is fairly thin, you can skip the brake and use angle iron, C Clamps, and lumber to clamp along the lines, then fold. You can tighten up the fold line via a rawhide or plastic mallet over a form. Your artwork displayed fine, but some dimensions would help. If the bracket is 4 inches long, you can pull the job off with just a bench vise and hammer. If it is 4 foot long you might want to go by an HVAC or sheet metal shop and see what they would charge you to bend it up. They will also have a shear to give much better cut edges than you'll get with aviation or tin snips. Stan ------- From: torquemada40223x~xxy... Date: Wed Jul 25, 2001 6:02 pm Subject: Re: OT: Metal Bending (long) Stan -- Thanks for the great reply! My brackets are about 6", so I think I'll forego buying metal brake right now, and use the lumber & clamps as you suggested, and then tighten the fold with my rubber mallet and form. Marco ------- From: "Leon Heller" Date: Thu Jul 26, 2001 12:54 am Subject: Re: [taigtools] OT: Metal Bending (long) There's a good description of how to do this sort of thing in Model Engineering, by Peter Wright. You use a piece of 3/4" square steel bar with a radius filed on one edge as a bending bar in the vice, an aluminium block and a hammer. If you do the bending in the correct order it should come out right, and you won't need a machine. Leon Leon Heller, G1HSM Tel: +44 1327 359058 My web page: http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller ------- From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Date: Thu Jul 26, 2001 2:17 pm Subject: Re: [taigtools] OT: Metal Bending (long) I find that the flat wide sheetmetal bending visegrips work great for small bending jobs. If you have a Workmate vise/table, you can slip angle iron in the jaws and use it for fairly wide bends with hammer and block. See our web pages http://www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 23:57:22 EDT From: wa9gobx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: form tools info needed Hello group: It has been a long time since I have checked in. Last month I took my 10 yr. Old to the henry ford green field village. There they have an old fashioned machine shop set up and they let you knock out a little brass candlestick [1+1/2 in. Long], using a brown&sharp 1917 turret lathe for $3.00. It was worth it for me as I never have used a turret setup before. I would like to set this up with my 10 inch atlas for making french horn and trumpet mouth pieces. What they do is stick a brass rod through the center of the spindle, then plunge a form tool into the right end to form the top. Then they have a form tool to shape out the whole fancy out side shape [one operation there] and use a parting tool to cut it off. Then a fast pass across the grinder to smooth out the bottom end. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to make a form tool for my mouth piece project. I will have to form the outside shape, drill it to #14 ctr [venturi], plunge in a special shaped cup from the tail stock side, and then from the other side make the 'back bore' which goes from the little 'horn' end to the narrow venturi that meets the cup about midway up from both ends. ?? Thank you for any ideas. Dan Busta ------- Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 00:08:27 EDT From: HUNLEY31x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: form tools info needed Dan: Is this what you want? http://www.grizzlyoutlet.com/fcgi-bin/lookup.fcgi/loo kup.cfg?q=item&kw=G1298 Hank ------- Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 01:50:58 EDT From: sleykinx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: form tools info needed 09/24/2001 wa9gobx~xxaol.com writes: > does anyone have any suggestions on how to make a form tool for Not sure what this will actually look like but formtools are fairly easy to make. A piece of spring steel from a car or truck leaf spring works well. My personal favorite is a piece of planer blade brazed to an appropriately sized (1/2") piece of square CRS. I grind a seat in the steel for the formtool and braze the formed bit to it. With spring steel you have to temper it but with the planer blades you just braze or silver solder and sharpen with a hone and go. Grind with whatever fits. Glenn Neff Medford, OR ------- Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 10:59:35 EDT From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: form tools info needed I know from nothing about trumpets. But, one way to make a form tool is to chuck up drill rod (silver steel, in England) and turn the profile of your desired shape, then saw, grind or cut in some manner the formed rod on the center. Harden, temper and touch up the edges with a stone. That is the way amateur clock makers create a tool to cut gear teeth in brass. John Meacham High Desert of California, Palmdale, Littlerock ------- Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 22:46:11 -0500 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Re: form tools info needed One comment on form tools is that they chatter like sin. Anything big enough to form a trumpet mouthpiece would probably either chatter worse than you could imagine, or else will stall the machine. That is a lot of metal to cut, and I don't think any regular Atlas can do it. I think you would have about a 1" or more cutting edge. Maybe a Colchester can do it. You could set up a tracer arrangement, and use a smaller tool. I don't know how to explain the ones I saw, but they are shown in some of the machine shop training books. Essentially there is a fixed profile that stops the crosslide. You keep manually feeding until you touch it at all points along the part. Sort of like a filing template. At that point you have duplicated the form in the part. Jerry ------- Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 00:40:05 EDT From: sleykinx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: form tools info needed 09/25/2001, jerdalx~xxcyberedge.net writes: > One comment on form tools is that they chatter like sin. > Maybe a Colchester can do it. I made one about 1.5" long to cut handles out of aluminum. You "walk" it in by shifting side to side just a bit till you get close to final then plunge on in. It works well on my 12" Atlas. I have it setup for about three to five degrees of back rake. Glenn Neff Medford, OR ------- Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 21:13:08 EDT From: wa9gobx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: form tools info needed Thanks for input, that's exactly what a machinist ham radio buddy told me this morning, about the chatter and that the atlas is too small. thanks dan ------- oldtools digest Subject: Bending Brass Rod From: "Croxton Gordon" Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 11:41:52 -0500 Gentle Galoots: I need to bend some 3/16 inch brass rod at about a right angle. I don't have enough to experiment with, so before I start mashing it in a vise, I thought I'd put the question before the group. Should I heat it with a torch first, and, if so, to a certain color? I have a home-handyperson torch, no Mapp gas or the stuff the Big Boys use. OT content: I'm making a music stand for my cellist brother, and he wants a hook to hang his bow on. I want to make a slide-out brass hook that's captured in the music-holder part. Though I've killed some electrons with the lathe and neanderbuddy, the sliding dovetails for the tripod base are all saw and chisel, and the three cyma legs are all spokeshave and rasp. Pretty walnut. Wish me luck. It's about to kill me. The design is from an article in an old FW magazine. Cheers, Croxton Eastville, Virginia USA, on Virginia's Eastern Shore ------- Subject: Re: Bending Brass Rod From: Richard.Wilsonx~xxsalvesen.com Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 17:14:11 +0000 It depends on how tight you need the bend to be whether you bend it hot or cold. Brass is easy to snap when cold if you're going for a right angle, so even if you bend it cold, heat to dull red and allow it to cool slowly first to anneal it. If you go for a hot bend, work out how to prevent it chilling as you place into the vise. You probably don't want the vise jaws to mark the work either, so maybe some sacrificial hardwood jaws would be good. Then too ( and I haven't done this in this way ) you could drill a hole to size and depth in the hardwood (allow for expansion a bit) and when the metal is hot, drop one end down the hole to depth, and pull the bend over using pliers, and finish with hammer blows on the bend to tighten it - use softening or you'll mark the metal - again, hardwood with or without a groove should do. Ignore the smoke and flame from the wood, and consider that your hole will be charred and become too large. Using a vise alone is OK, but you need to rehearse - heat, carefully hang up or put down blowtorch, into vise, tighten same, pull the bend over, pick up hammer and softening - a bit of whacking, etc etc Bon Chance Richard Wilson Not the best smith on the list. . . ------- Subject: Re:Bending Brass Rod From: Scott Quesnelle Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 17:48:42 +0000 (GMT) Copper alloys (brass,bronze) are not as forgiving as ferrous ones. They work harden quickly when cold (Bend a piece copper wire back and forth a few times and it will snap, iron wire takes a fair bit longer, if at all). If it is heated too high, it crumbles. When doing brass work, only go for a dull red in a dim room, any higher and I run into trouble. A normal propane torch is good. I prefer cold work with a large number of annealings. I anneal by bringing it to a dull red/orange and plunging it into a mixture of vinegar and water. For your small piece I would get some wet cloth, wrap it around the base. Clamp that into the vise. Slowly heat just the area for the bend, when you get a dull red in a dim room. Start with a very light hammer, just tap the other end repeatedly. When you are done, you can harden it by bringing it back to a dull red and letting it cool slowly like air hardening steel, but that is probably unneccessary for your needs. You will need to polish it afterwards. OT content: I do most of my metal working with old hammers and a nice old anvil. Also very handy to make things like the beautiful planes that Wayne Anderson and other constantly toss out as if they were nothing. Scott Quesnelle ------- Subject: RE: Bending Brass Rod From: "Peter McBride" Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 22:39:39 +1100 Croxton and GG's: I have been hand working non-ferrous metal 6 days a week for 30 years, and occasionally use brass to make galootish tools. I've listened to, and read plenty about annealing brass and some have recommend quenching in water. I recommend heating up to a dull cherry red, making certain the metal has been held long enough for it to be heated all the way through, then cooling it (or to be precise quenching) in AIR. To show the difference I did a test on three pieces of 1/4 inch (6mm Jeff) ordinary round brass rod. I cut 3 pieces about 2 inches long, and heated 2 of then to cherry red, dropped one into cold water, and allowed the other to cool in air. I hand rolled them through my flat jeweller's rollers until they started to crack. No surprises the un-annealed piece cracked early at 3.8mm, the water cooled at 3.0mm, and the air cooled piece didn't crack even at 2.6mm, although it was getting seriously hard. (Sorry about the mm, but that is what my gauge says.) This probably isn't the most rigorous scientific test, but if I showed what I had just done to any of the 12 apprentices I have trained, and they decided that quenching my material in water was a better idea...well ...a shame you can't thrash apprentices any more. I took some pictures of the brass test pieces and put them on my web site. http://www.petermcbride.com/brass_test/ So back to bending 3/16 rod, just heat it up in the area where you want to bend it. Let it cool, and if the piece is long enough you should be able to bend it with you hands, and it will bend in the area you just *selectively annealed*. You won't get anywhere near enough work into it to crack it. (You would be able to wind it onto a 1/2 inch rod and make a spiral to cut into rings) If it isn't long enough for that, drill a 3/16 inch hole in the end grain of 2 pieces of hardwood and make a pair of long levers. Then bend it around a steel former, a round rod for instance, stuck in the vice. Another of Dad's famous quotes, *with a lever long enough my boy, you could lift the world* Regards Peter McBride In Melbourne, Australia ------- Subject: RE: Bending Brass Rod From: "Meltsner, Kenneth" Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 10:06:36 -0500 Darn, you had to bring in practical experience just when we were starting to have fun.... It's a pretty good test, by the way. Typical simple ASTM-style* test for ductility is bending the strip around a mandrel of known size, but since we're not looking for a go/no-go result, your approach is better. My only change might be to heat the entire piece rather than a section -- the rod may be self-quenching a bit if only part is heated. The slowest cooling rates require heating the whole piece and burying it in an insulating material. [When I worked at an Army arsenal, they told me about the good old days of casting cannon barrels. After the casting had solidified, they'd dig a trench in the dirt floor, put the cannon in it, fill the trench back up, and let it cool for a week or so. This was the same site that used to inspect tank armor plate by etching it with a floor mop and a bucket full of etchant -- not exactly subtle.] Ken * American Society for Testing Materials -- independent, non-governmental group that develops and standardizes tests for materials, from steel to kid's crayons. ------- Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 23:31:21 -0400 From: Paul Anderson Subject: Spinning on a Taig?! I was looking over Nicholas Carter's website, and saw this: http://www.cartertools.com/ntaig32.jpg Spinning on a taig?! Do my eyes deceive me? How well did it work? I have to wonder how on earth it was rigid enough to pull that off. Paul Anderson ------- Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 08:35:42 +0100 From: Steve Blackmore Subject: Re: Spinning on a Taig?! Easily I would imagine on Aluminium or Copper, you just stop and re-anneal when it work hardens. I've done some occasionally (not on a Taig) and it's surprising how little force is needed to form the metal. The only thing that would put me off is a fair amount of force is needed between the tailstock and head bearings to hold the work securely so it doesn't slip and Taig head bearings are not taper rollers. Using something like wet and dry paper glued to the holding blocks helps a lot, as does a revolving centre on the tailstock. Steve Blackmore ------- Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 11:35:00 -0700 From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Subject: Re: Spinning on a Taig?! The trick was that I used about 30 ga. aluminum, so the forces involved were very light. I used soft aluminum so I didn't have to anneal, and completed the very simple spinning in one chucking. When I had to do production I moved the whole operation to my Jet920 as it was more comfortable and I could get much better leverage and use the variable speed motor to advantage. I think for smaller spinnings (the ones I did were about 4" dia) you could use the Taig to great advantage. It is easy to make chucks from wood screwed to the woodturners faceplate or made from the 1132 blank arbor. I forget how I adapted the live center (boy those older pictures on my site suck) but it just took a little head scratching to get enough pressure between the chuck and the pressure pad. ------- Subject: Re: Wire Question [Oldtools list] From: JTWadx~xxaol.com Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 17:27:12 EDT Frank Sronce asked: << I need to replace the thin wire used to slice the cheese, but I don't have any idea what this kind of wire is called or where to purchase it. >> Top string from a steel stringed guitar should work OK, and would be available at your neighborhood music establishment. John Wadsworth, in Delhi, NY ------- Subject: Re: Wire Question From: Ken Meltsner Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 17:47:48 -0500 I believe hard steel wire is usually called piano wire and should be available in several thicknesses at a good hardware store. Which means you might be better off with the guitar string since good hardware stores are getting rare. You could also look for fine stainless steel wire to avoid rust problems although it's likely to be weaker than piano wire. Don't cut it with diagonal cutters, by the way, unless you like nicks on their cutting edges. I'm not sure as to the "best" way to cut it. You could try filing a little scratch or notch (for a stress concentrator) and bending it back and forth, or just use pliers to kink it and bend it there. Ken ------- Subject: Re: Wire Question From: "Peter Huisman" Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 06:55:09 +0800 You will require a stainless wire. A musical instrument string such as the B string for a Guitar may be suitable. You may also find a length of stainless welding wire in the right gauge will suffice. Peter in Perth ------- Subject: Re: Wire Question From: scott grandstaff Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 19:52:26 -0700 Frank, you need a guitar B string, (.011 or a bit more) available at every music store in the world for 50 cents or less. Save the extra DAMHIKT Now, what you're going to find after you try it the usual way is, that you can't put enough tension on it to make a really sweet slicer. You need it truly taught. So what you have to do is secure one end well, then take a pair of pliers to the other end and hold the wire over a candle or something to heat it. When it gets just hot enough it'll stretch and you can wrap it around the other screw lickety split. When it cools a second later, it'll be taught enough to really slice some cheeze. Shhh, this is a trade secret. yours, Scott Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools:http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html ------- Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 02:24:55 -0000 From: "neilalbert2001" Subject: Making punch and die sets I would like to get some info on what would be required to create a punch and die to cut an elliptical arc on the end of a 3/4" flat strip of some material. I have already been advised that the material I would like to use for the application, Nylon, would probably too difficult, requiring extremely close tolerances for a thickness of 1/8". Nylon is the material of choice, since it can be easily dyed with RIT dye, but I can possibly settle for something else if it means I could use a small arbor press for stamping the part which is a 2" long x 3/4" wide strip meant to slip behind someone's belt to support a device which weighs about 3 pounds. I need to make several hundred of these. Earlier I had planned on milling the radius, if necessary, but stamping/punching would be a lot faster. Thanks Neil ------- Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 23:18:58 -0500 From: "Jerry G" Subject: Re: Making punch and die sets If you want to do it right, buy a die set, which consists of a lower and upper die shoe, made of a good grade of cast iron, with steel guide pins and bushings... You mount your punch block with Allen Cap screws and dowels (usually on the upper die shoe). After you locate the die block, (usually on the lower shoe), you pin it in position with dowel pins. You will need a guide for the nylon strip to orient it to the punch and die. Nylon can be punched with no problem. Alternate is to use abrasive machining and sand the radius in. Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 16:37:14 -0000 From: "Ron" Subject: Sheet metal machine use...??? [Prints_and_Plans group] I just bought a Grizzly 12" 3 in 1 sheet metal machine (brake, shear, roll). I know how to use the various functions alright, but I do not know how to use the roll grooves to form wire or rolled edges. Can anyone here help me? veeguy ------- Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 19:35:53 +0200 From: "Frank Hasieber" Subject: RE: Sheet metal machine use...??? Hi, you might find what you are looking for here. http://www.tinmantech.com/ Frank. ------- Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 09:39:29 -0600 From: "WDSmith" Subject: Sheet metal machine use...??? Ron, I hate to bear bad news but the answer is, "You don't." The grooves are for bending wire, not forming wire edges. Wire edges are formed with hammer and dolly or a tipping die/tool/machine and finished by hammer and dolly. I understand it can also be done with a bead roller but have yet to do it or see it done. Check out metalshapers.org or take a look at my latest adventure at http://www.smithsff.us under Edmond metal meet if this kind of stuff is your bag. WDSmith ------- Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 01:34:12 -0000 From: "Ron" Subject: Sheet metal question Thanks for the tinman link. I had been there, but missed the pertinent section. I now know the grooves are not for forming a wire edge, but to clear an already made wire edge or to roll wire into hoops. I do highly recommend this 12" 3 in 1 machine ($198.-)if you do any sheetmetal work! Today I built a furnace body for melting aluminum, a dustpan for my lathe, and chip shields for my mill. All of this was made with about $2.- worth of sheetmetal. veeguy ------- Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 23:01:39 -0000 From: "feraleng" Subject: Re: Sheet metal machine use...??? For those interested in forming machines take a look at http://www.mittlerbros.com/ good selection of equipment and plenty of pictures, I have not had any dealings with them, just found the site while looking for swager rolls. Scott UK. ------- NOTE TO FILE: This last site above has a lot of reference tables and information for visitors. See their menu item "Helpful Information." The site for making an inexpensive (really) sheet metal bender in the next message is huge and contains invaluable gardening and other tips. Well worth visiting for the whole family. You will get a lot of useful ideas and save bundles of money. (Really!) ------- Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 08:22:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Smith Subject: Re: bender [atlas_craftsman] [Sheet Metal Bender] > saw an old magazine article on somebody's website for building > a small sheet metal bender yesterday and now I can't find it. See: http://www.selfsufficientish.com/bender.htm Don ------- Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 22:48:13 -0400 From: "Earl Bower" Subject: Re: Re: bender Mark: Try groups.yahoo.com/group/homebuilt_tools/files/ groups.yahoo.com/group/homebuilt_tools2/files/Machine%20Shop/ Popular Mechanics bending brake groups.yahoo.com/group/homeshopprojects/files/Metalworking%20Projects/ groups.yahoo.com/group/Prints_and_Plans/files/Shop%20Tools/ has a bending brake.zip in this section (don't know what magazine). groups.yahoo.com/group/Prints_and_Plans_2/files/Homemade%20Shop%20Tools/ This one has a different one. Hope this helps you. Earl Bower www.bowermachineandtool.com ------- Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 12:49:57 -0000 From: "yrotc78u212" Subject: bender again not the one I`m looking for but will do. Thanks for the help. http://www.vansairforce.org/tools/ mark ------- Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 08:42:51 -0700 From: William Abernathy Subject: Re: bender again [For] the 1958 Popular Mechanics plans. This link will take you straight to 'em. http://www.vintageprojects.com/machine-shop/Press-Brake.pdf W ------- Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 12:17:19 -0800 From: "BRUCE ROGERS" Subject: Brass Plating - has anyone done this? [atlas_craftsman -- NOTE: msgs here from this thread will follow the brass bending comments] Has anyone ever done any brass electro-plating over steel? I am trying to duplicate a very unique 7 inch brass drawer pull for an expensive piece of furniture. I would like to turn the pull out of steel and bend it to the right shape. Then I would brass plate it. I tried making it out of brass. It looked beautiful and polished prior to trying to bend it. It broke immediately when I tried to bend it. I tried heating it before bending -- interesting experiment but it just took less force to break it (immediately). So, I'm thinking of making it out of a more ductile metal like aluminum or steel. But I want to end up having it look like brass. I saw a company that provides a kit to brass plate but it is around $250 and is out of my budget. Suggestions on experiences with brass plating of aluminum or steel would be welcome. Bruce ------- Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 12:44:12 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Subject: Re: Brass Plating - has anyone done this? Can't help you with plating but brass anneals differntly than steel. You heat brass and quench it while hot to anneal it. ------ Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 21:20:09 -0800 From: Michael Fagan Subject: Re: Brass Plating - has anyone done this? I would try plating it before I would make it out of aluminum. In my experience, it is very difficult to bend aluminum successfully without very carefully controlled heating and cooling. Otherwise it tends to have severe metal fatigue that actually forms cracks in the bend area. I don't know of much of a demand for electroplating of brass, though, and this is what probably makes the cost high. Most people do the opposite, where they nickle or chrome plate over brass. ------- Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 23:42:37 -0600 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: Brass Plating - has anyone done this? Michael Fagan wrote: >In my experience, it is very difficult to bend aluminum successfully It depends on the material. I have bent 1/8" 2024 by heating until soap burns deep brown on the bend line, then plunging into a stream of cold water. 3003 bends VERY nicely, and is the material of choice for bending. I think there is a 5054 or something like that that also bends nicely. Jon ------- Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 09:07:41 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Brass Plating - has anyone done this? Incidentally, SOME brass is quite workable, since cartridge brass is drawn rather a long way. As someone said, it starts as a sheet of thick brass. The fact that it is a sheet PROVES it is workable, since it was rolled... But, in forming a cartridge, the brass may be annealed 12 times. So if you have a material that is hard to form, bend a little, anneal, bend a little, anneal again... JT -------- Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 13:15:22 -0800 From: "BRUCE ROGERS" Subject: Re: Brass Plating - has anyone done this? Thanks Mert. I got a similar suggestion from Michael from this group. I tried a sample piece (one of the pieces left over from the original disaster) and I heated it up with a propane torch and then dropped it into a bucket. I stuck it in a vice and bent it fairly easily. I looked and couldn't find any stress cracks. It bent just fine. Both of you guys gave me GREAT ADVICE! THANKS!!! This Yahoo group is great. Mert, you mention that I might want to re-anneal it after I bend it. Is that in case I need to bend it in a sharper radius as a secondary operation or is just to give it more strength long-term? Bruce ------- Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 17:56:37 -0500 From: "mertbaker" Subject: Re: Brass Plating - has anyone done this? As you bend it, it work hardens. It may bend easily at first, and then become stiff. If this happens, merely re-anneal it. The first anneal may well be suffcient; you will find out by trying. Mert ------- Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2006 00:24:45 -0600 From: Michael Vanecek Subject: Spinning Metal [taigtools] Has anyone tried to spin metal on their Taig lathe? I may try making a mold and spinning something out of aluminum or copper just to see how it works. Cheers, Mike http://www.taroandti.com/ http://www.mjv.com/ ------- Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2006 23:41:53 -0800 From: Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein Subject: Re: Spinning Metal http://www.cartertools.com/ntaig32.jpg http://www.cartertools.com/ntaig33.jpg http://www.cartertools.com/ntaig34.jpg Yup, works pretty well...note use of riser blocks... Now I just have to figure out what that block attached to my tailstock is - can it really have been so long ago I've actually forgotten some things I've done to my Taig? See our homepage at www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------ Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 18:13:07 -0600 From: "Callcbm" Subject: RE: Spinning Metal > Has anyone tried to spin metal on their Taig lathe? I may try making a > mold and spinning something out of aluminum or copper just to see how > it works...Cheers, Mike Look at enjenjoesproducts.com They have some polymer grease for metal spinning that I tried and it works well. The Taig lathe works good, but I had problems with heating the metal with regular lube; tried this and was able to make what I wanted. Randy ------- Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2006 02:53:36 -0000 From: "davideggy2" Subject: Re: Spinning Metal I haven't tried it with a taig but I worked for a pewtersmith years ago and I regularly spun 12" tall 2" dia vases from 10" dia .035 pewter discs. It was so cool to watch it bend and flex and then lay down on the form. Then take a nice slow even pass at high speed and watch it smooth right out. Very little polishing needed, even tho his products were all mirror finish. I understand copper and aluminum are a whole different ballgame to spin. If you can find a supplier of pewter discs, you'll have a much nicer experience spinning for the first time. But I must warn you, spinning is probably the most difficult skill I ever learned. But it was one of the most rewarding. I think we used a stick of something that was mostly lard as a lube. We had to lock it up at night to keep the mice away from it. Have fun. Start small. Spend some time getting a mirror polish on the tool you use to spin. We had a really hefty old spinning lathe, tools with handles that came back under the armpit, and really used the body weight. Like I said, have fun. Dave ------- Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 01:35:35 -0600 From: Michael Vanecek Subject: Re: Re: Spinning Metal Wally and Otter wrote: > I'll chime in on this one. If I remember correctly from my old shop > class, we used paraffin wax as a lube for spinning aluminum. I won't be doing extreme spinning - at least to start off with. Kinda want to experiment and see what's possible. Paraffin is something I already use to seal my cuttings - so I have plenty handy and will probably try some of that for starters on some aluminum. Shoulda figured that for every spinner, there'd be three or four lube preferences. :) At least now I have more of an idea of what's needed and where to direct my experimentation. Thanks a million! I'm very happy that this can be done on my Taig. Be well, Mike ------- bending jig [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "glenndroberts" nohilowx~xxaol.com Date: Thu Aug 17, 2006 8:36 pm (PDT) > Look for "ornamental iron work" in Yahoo group listings. Art This may be OT for this group, but I'm having trouble finding info on how to build a small, home-shop jig to bend 1/2" wide by 1/8" thick flat stock into uniform "curlicues" for making wrought-iron style railings and decorations...Any help or re-direction would be appreciated. Thanks Glenn ------- Re: bending jig Posted by: "ejthomas" ejthomasx~xxshentel.net Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 5:20 am (PDT) Actually, as an ornamental blacksmith, I can't endorse this. Properly made, they are "SCROLLS" not curlicues. And I haven't seen any cold-bent fabricated "curlicues" yet that weren't ugly as sin. Now if you want to know how to make them properly, I can help. Ed Thomas ------- Re: bending jig Posted by: "nohilowx~xxaol.com" Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:34 pm (PDT) Any help is appreciated, just remember, I am trying to learn how to crawl and I fear you want me to run a marathon.. Glenn ------- Re: bending jig Posted by: "Art Volz" volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:13 pm (PDT) Glen-- I think Ed is trying to tell you something. It's sorta like learning how to eat spaghetti rolled-up on a fork...without getting tined in the forehead. :-) To bend iron or steel more easily, you have to get it in a hot more plastic state. There are various ways of doing this. One of the cheapest and easiest ways for heating small pieces of steel orange hot is with that olde tyme pump-up gasoline blowtorch. NIB gasoline blow torches are available on eBay if you spend some time looking. I bought a brand new Sears blow torch last year for less than $20. Gasoline blow torches don't burn as hot as Acetylene, but they pump lots of BTU's into the metal being heated. Then there are some tools. Appropriate hammers, tongs, and an anvil come to mind. There are some very good beginners books on the black art of black- smithing. You need to "pump" yourself up with the skills and knowledges of smithing by reading several of these books...perhaps even spending some coins and buying one that you take a fancy to...for your nite stand...or your ivory stallion room. "Hi Ho Silver!" & "Ahhhhhh...Cisco!". "Ahhhhh...Pancho!" Everything is easy...until you try to do it. Art (Houston) ------- Re: bending jig Posted by: "mariol.vitalex~xxatt.net" Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 3:27 pm (PDT) O.K. Ed, .... so how DO you make 'em "properly"? :-) I really do want to know since I am in the process of "resussitating" an old cast iron forge. Contact me off line (mariol.vitalex~xxatt.net) and we can chat. Mario ------- Re: bending jig Posted by: "Irby Jones" irbyratx~xxcox.net Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 5:43 pm (PDT) Glenn, I'm certainly not a blacksmith like Ed, but long ago (36 years probably) I made a bending jig to do what you're wanting to do. I was making scrolls for the arms of a lamp, but it should work about the same. First I made the shape I wanted in the same flat iron (I was using 3/4" x 1/8"), using my oxy-acetylene torch to heat the iron red hot to bend it. I made up some slotted tools to grab and hold the iron as I bent it. It took a while to get it the way I wanted. Then I welded that scroll to a piece of angle iron. Obviously, I welded on the side away from where the flat iron strip would be. I added a tab spaced 1/8" over from the "start" (inside) of the scroll to hold the iron strip in place at the start of the bending. My scroll didn't wrap around so far that I couldn't get the flat iron strip into the "starting" position, if that makes sense. I heated the iron strip red hot then bent it around the scroll jig. It wouldn't do right if I tried it cold. I didn't know anything about blacksmithing at the time (still don't), but I made a bunch of these scrolls for several lamps I made as gifts. They turned out nice. I still have the jig around somewhere, but couldn't find it tonight. That's a young engineer's way to bend a lot of identical scrolls, not necessarily a blacksmith's way. It would be nice to hear how Ed would do it. Then again, I know another blacksmith in VA, closer than Ed is to me, who could also show me - Roger Smith. Ed knows Roger. Just to make this OT post more on topic, the last time I saw that jig it was in the same corner of my garage as my Logan 8 shaper. Irby ------- Re: bending jig Posted by: "xlch58x~xxswbell.net" Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 6:07 pm (PDT) Irby Jones wrote: > That's a young engineer's way to bend a lot of identical scrolls, > not necessarily a blacksmith's way. I have been smithing for about twenty years and converse with a lot of other smiths and that IS the preffered way for production scrolls unless you want to go to a scroll bender ala Hossfield. For one or two, then you do them by hand since it is so quick and easy. Harbor Freight sells a metal bender and used to sell a scroll bender attachment for it as well. They don't list the Scrolling attachment anymore. I have one, it works ok, but the hand made scrolls look so much better: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=38471 Here is a site that sells the bender and attachment: http://www.toolsplus1.com/compactbend.htm The nice thing about Irby's approach is that it allows you more control of what the finished product will look like and will also allow you to work the end a bit as well. So Irby, what brand of engineer are you? Charles ------- Re: bending jig Posted by: "Irby Jones" irbyratx~xxcox.net Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 6:55 pm (PDT) Cool, Charles. It's nice to know I did it right after all way back then! > So Irby, what brand of engineer are you? Aerospace, from good ole Va Tech in 1967. Retired 3+ years ago to take care of aging pet rats, but only Art and my family knows that! Now I've taken in aging machinery, too. Irby in VA ------- Re: bending jig Posted by: "ejthomas" ejthomasx~xxshentel.net Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:35 pm (PDT) Glenn: As suggested by Irby, you can make a scroll and weld it to a plate. This is generally preferable to the benders because scrolls should be made to meet the design, not designed to meet the limitations of the bender. It really only works with hot metal, though. Scrolling is a developed skill in forging. It is not trivial, but neither is it terribly difficult once someone (good) shows you, and you practice a bit. Fabricated, cold-bent scrolls look like crap for several reasons. The most glaring fault is that the material is boring and uniform and lifeless. Milled stock has four sides and no reflective surfaces to break up the monotony. By working the steel hot (wrought), it develops character. The next most offensive problem is the end of the scroll... the end inside the loop from which the scroll is developed. To be interesting, this HAS to be part of the continuous curve and has to end gracefully. If you simply cold bend it, it will be an abrupt squared end, that has a flat segment so that it can be trapped or clamped in a jig. By hot forging it into a taper, fishtail, split, etc... the scroll grows outward the same way you see in nature in snails and sea shells and so on. The other end must do something also... not just stop because it happens to be the right length. There are many different scrolls. At their best, they are part of the project, not just ornamentation. They developed as a beautiful solution for support elements; structurally sound, not just tacked on to take up space. Hot forging is alive and well and there are groups everywhere who would be happy to share what they can at monthly meetings. As with every craft/art the range of skill is quite wide. If you like the look and feel of iron, try your hand at it. The basic requirements are actually quite modest. Forges (gas or coal) are pretty easy to make and hammers and anvils are available everywhere. The most expensive tool is usually the anvil, though substitutes to get your feet hot... I mean wet... can be made... such as using RR track for an anvil and so on. That's about enough hijacking of the shaper group for blacksmithing. I usually check into: http://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/ a few times a day. You can usually get your questions answered there as well as read tips from the past. I chime in sometimes, though not as much as I used to. Shaper topic: I have a 16" Steptoe and occasionally use it to make things for my black- smithing shop. I expect to be shaping a 4" x 4" x 8" power hammer die with it sometime soon... whenever I can get a break from my forging work. I also have a slotter, but haven't made anything with it. I expect to use it to make some square holes in some fireplace screen doors soon. I love the older machines because they work hard and I'm not afraid to learn on them. My Steptoe was made during WWII. Where do you live? Ed ------- Re: bending jig Posted by: "nohilowx~xxaol.com" Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 10:52 pm (PDT) Irby: Thanks for the input. Since my quest began for a design, I have run into a few websites with jigs made just as you describe. Seems to be a very common item in some fab shops. I will probably put one or two together just as you describe. After my father, a welder, retired, he began putting ornamental iron together in his homeshop, for our home, his friends, our neighbors, etc, (anyone who saw the work, wanted some...) He made some jigs out of solid 1" plate, cutting them out with a oxy/acet torch and then shaping with a grinder until he had a solid template around which to bend his iron. His were heavy...yours sound a bit more lightweight. I was a teenager, and of course, ignored whatever he was doing...(HA). Now I wish I had paid a little bit more attention to the details of the shape of his forms, and the different sizes. He bent his iron cold and the results were very good. My quest has revealed several "compact benders" commercially available which do quite the same thing. I am now looking closely at them to see if I can reproduce the functions of these benders in my on shop. Some are quite expensive, others not so. The expensive ones do several sizes and options and the inexpensive are not so versatile. However, if I can mimic their forms enough, maybe I can produce a passable scroll.... I've also wondered if it was possible to cut a template or form out of a hardwood and be able to bend (cold) smaller rod/bar around it. What do you think? Glenn ------- Re: bending jig Posted by: "nohilowx~xxaol.com" Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 10:52 pm (PDT) Ed: Can't argue with you about the difference between a hot formed scroll versus a cold rolled one. However, for my needs at the moment...making an arbor for my daughter that will be covered up with a rosebush very quickly, I am going to build a basic straight welded tube structure and add scrolls for interest and diversity. It is a long promised project that I HAVE to get done. Perhaps after that I can explore YOUR world. Sounds interesting. I have 35 years experience as a welder/fitter so working with hot metal is really no big thing. Just looking for this help has opened up a new world for me and I am looking forward to exploring it. I am Hillsboro, Oregon, about 15 miles west of Portland. I'll check out the link. Thanks. Glenn ------- Re: bending jig Posted by: "ejthomas" ejthomasx~xxshentel.net Date: Sat Aug 19, 2006 5:45 am (PDT) Glenn, http://www.blacksmith.org/ Look at that link. You should be able find some member close enough to you. You will be amazed at the what you can do with just a bit of supplementing the skills you already have. ------- Two line tip on using files [Min_Int_Comb_Eng] Posted by: "David Everett" deverett2003x~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Sun Feb 11, 2007 12:35 am ((PST)) Hi Mike: Just a quick tip for anyone who still uses files: I had to file off the machining marks in a recess in 1/2" plate. After getting the recess good and flat with the end mill, it ended up dome shaped after I had attacked it with a file. So, to restore it to a flat surface, I clamped a piece of flat steel on either side of the job level with where the flat face needed to go and they provided a guide for the file. A few minutes work and job's a good 'un. Probably old hat to all your experts, but lone hands learn the long and hard way! Regards Dave The Emerald Isle ------- Re: belt guard / Side Bar/ Back on track [sherline] Posted by: "Jerry G" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:07 am ((PDT)) Talking about slip rollers. There is a great tool available for precision bending of PE* * = Photo Etched material. Frequently used to super detail models. Go to: http://ausfwerks.com//store/ausfdesign/main.html Check out the Fender Bender. No commercial connection. A really fine tool. Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Re: belt guard / Side Bar/ Back on track Posted by: "Charles Fox" cafox513x~xxgte.net Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:23 am ((PDT)) Or take a look at the one car modelers swear by: http://www.thesmallshop.com/ It's called Hold and Fold. ------- Re: belt guard / Side Bar/ Back on track Posted by: "Jerry G" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 6:30 am ((PDT)) Hi Mr. Fox, I know about the Hold and Fold and the other popular one. I think it is called Etch Mate. The Fender Bender runs rings around both of them. Mr. Glickstein ------- Re: belt guard / Side Bar/ Back on track Posted by: "David Clark" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 7:10 am ((PDT)) The Fender Bender looks more like the box brakes that I'm familiar with, in that it is hinged, and backs up the metal on both sides of the bend line. This, it seems to me, should produce a more uniform and symmetrical bend. My experience is that press brakes produce the nicest bends. A press brake and dies would be a lot more effort to make, however, and my need is not that great. I've seen die sets that attach to a bench vise to emulate a press brake, but this seems a little kludgey to me. Anybody tried one? (Saw one at the Harbor Freight store. Wasn't impressed with the quality. Had to brush the rice off it, if you know what I mean.) One of these years, or as soon as I complete the procurement of that elusive Round Tuit, I'll see if I can't reverse engineer a Fender Bender. Too much fun to have, not enough time to have it. DC ------- Re: belt guard / Side Bar/ Back on track Posted by: "Pierre Coueffin" pcoueffinx~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 9:28 am ((PDT)) > I've seen die sets that attach to a bench vise > to emulate a press brake, but this seems a little kludgey to me. > Anybody tried one? You don't mean one of these: http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p= 32011&cat=1,43456,43407&ap=1 do you? A little crude for modelling, but mine works fine when I need a bent piece of steel to make a bracket or support. You can bend heavier stuff more precisely with some forging blocks, a torch and a big hammer, but the vice is quicker for some things. ------- Re: belt guard / Side Bar/ Back on track Posted by: "David Clark" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 12:17 pm ((PDT)) No, that looks more useful than what I remember seeing at Harbor Freight. I just checked their catalog and can't find the one I meant. Perhaps it was a limited offering. But what I have in mind is for finer work. For example: I want to make a firebox, lamp and chimney, for a Stirling engine I made a while ago. I'd like to cut, bend, and roll thin brass accurately enough to butt and silver solder, then polish to nearly invisible seams. Neatness counts. For the heavy stuff, sure, I'm with you. When I need an S hook or a gate latch I want nothing more than a bench vise, hammer, and some MAPP. Blacksmithing with a torch is one of the most fun aspects of the metalworking hobby. One of these years I may even set up a forge. Too much fun, etc..... DC ------- Re: belt guard / Side Bar/ Back on track Posted by: "Alan KM6VV" KM6VVx~xxSBCglobal.net Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 2:53 pm ((PDT)) Hi David, I might have missed part of this discussion. I have a need for a small sheet metal brake for bending some small 1" wide aluminum .062 brackets. I was at Harbor Freight this Saturday, and picked up the 39103 18" bending brake. OK, typical caveats on Chinese imports. But it's about what I was contemplating building from the Gingery (sp) plans. A friend has built one, and I tried it out a few weeks ago. I bent my brackets simple enough, so I'm satisfied. But I am interested in this "other" Press Brake mentioned. I didn't stay long enough to look around, as I usually get my tools elsewhere. Alan KM6VV P.S. cost of the little brake I bought? About $900 worth of furniture (we HAD to go shopping for furniture that trip too). ------- NOTE TO FILE: The belt guard earlier conversation is found here in the Sherline Mods General file for 27 Sep, 2007. A safe, effective guard for dangerous parts of machines does not have to be pretty, but it does need to be there. ------- Small Improvement [to spinning metal] [atlas_craftsman group] Posted by: "indianfourrider" indianfourriderx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Jul 2, 2008 9:05 am ((PDT)) I have a spinning project under way (more on that in another post if anyone's interested...) Since the carriage isn't used and is actually in the way, I've been removing and re-installing the tailstock a few times. What a PAIN! I'm sure there's a perfectly good reason that Atlas put the access to the clamping nut on the back side of the tailstock. Like maybe a dyslexic patternmaker? Anyway, I came up with an 'improved' clamping nut that makes it much less aggravating to remove the tailstock. Pictures are, I hope, self- explanatory and are in a new album: Projects. "I'm trying to think, but nothing's happening!" Jerome Horowitz aka "Curley" ------- Bending 10mm rod into 5" dia rings[shopbuilttools] Posted by: "George Deaney" george.deaneyx~xxbtinternet.com Date: Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:35 pm ((PST)) Anybody have any thoughts on bending 3/8" or 9-10 mm steel rod into 5" diameter rings? Regards George ------- Re: Bending 10mm rod into 5" dia rings Posted by: "Dan" maxtanksgalleriesx~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:23 pm ((PST)) Simple set of rollers and a crank, friend. Trick is cutting them off. We used to make our own steel rings out of flat stock. They came out great but you had to bend with a little extra curve so it would make it through the rollers. It's that extra that is the only pain. We'd make them tight and open them up a little to cut them off and put the ends together. cheers B ------- Re: Bending 10mm rod into 5" dia rings Posted by: "Keith Green" ksggx~xxtelus.net Date: Sat Nov 22, 2008 3:21 pm ((PST)) I have a ring roller here that I bought a couple weeks ago. I think Harbour Freight has them, if you're located in the States. Mine was from Princess Auto here in Canada. About $80 for mine. http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=36790 ------- Re: Bending 10mm rod into 5" dia rings Posted by: "Keith Green" ksggx~xxtelus.net Date: Sat Nov 22, 2008 7:17 pm ((PST)) Amendment to my earlier post about the ring roller: It has a maximum capacity of 1/4" for rod. I also own one of the 'Compact Benders' like Harbour Freight sells: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=44094 It does a good job but you won't get 5" rings out of it without, first some investigation as to whether a 5" die will fit in there and, second, constructing said die. It will bend round rod up to 5/8". It will do the job very quickly once set up and damage to the threads should be minimal. You will need extra material on each end of your raw stock as there will be short bits left that the bender leaves straight. They also have a tubing roller: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=99736 The downloadable manual there states that it will roll a minimum 4" diameter. It's meant for 1" to 2" tubing, copper pipe and exhaust pipe. It's a bit pricey at $180 US and you will still have to make your own rollers. ------- Re: Bending 10mm rod into 5" dia rings Posted by: "Ken Boardman" zrf1jx~xxyahoo.ca Date: Sat Nov 22, 2008 5:17 pm ((PST)) I have never had any good luck bending threaded rod. It always cracks for me. A large radius in relation to rod diameter may work. It is much easier to bend solid material. Ken ------- Re: Bending 10mm rod into 5" dia rings Posted by: "bobo smith" bobo81341x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Nov 22, 2008 7:33 pm ((PST)) I don't know why you are working with threaded rod but if you could roll it without thread damage the nut won't fit because the outside will stretch the thread and the inside will compress the thread. If you have a slip-roll that you can open up to take a hoop off then you can cut to length which is the center line of the hoop when rolled take it off and weld the ends together then re-roll to make round. Bobo ------- Re: Bending 10mm rod into 5" dia rings Posted by: "kendall bonner" merc2dogsx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Nov 22, 2008 8:25 pm ((PST)) If he has a lathe, he could thread a nut that would work with it though, basically making a nut for a larger diameter rod, but having wider lands in relation to the peaks of the threads. That would leave the peaks close enough together on the inside, and enough room between them to work on the outside. Of course, strength would be greatly compromised. You wouldn't be able to make up for the lack of strength with length, unless you were able to make the nut longer (possibly even larger diameter) so that it would grip at the ends on the inside, and the middle on the outside. Ken ------- Re: Bending 10mm rod into 5" dia rings Posted by: "Dan" maxtanksgalleriesx~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Nov 23, 2008 1:35 am ((PST)) ya best of luck on the threaded part dude Im not so sure your nuts are going to work ( say that to the wrong person and see what happens ) why the threads any way what are you going to do with a circular bit of all thread ------- Re: Bending 10mm rod into 5" dia rings Posted by: "George Deaney" george.deaneyx~xxbtinternet.com Date: Sun Nov 23, 2008 5:08 am ((PST)) Sorry guys, should have mentioned that the reason I was using threaded rod is that the rings are to be fixed to a vertical flat bar, two holes and with a pair of nuts either side. The damaged portion of the thread will be covered in several layers of heat shrink tube, and I have lots of threaded rod. George ------- Re: Bending 10mm rod into 5" dia rings Posted by: "n5kzw" n5kzwx~xxarrl.net Date: Sun Nov 23, 2008 7:26 am ((PST)) George, I don't think it will work. The thread crests along the midline of the ring will be at your original thread pitch, but the crests on the inside of the ring will be at a tighter spacing and the ones on the outside of the loop will be further apart than the original spacing. Your nuts won't turn. You would have to turn the threads off all of the rod except for the part going through the vertical rod (and nuts) and then keep the threaded part of the rod straight. Regards, Ed ------- Re: Bending 10mm rod into 5" dia rings Posted by: "George Deaney" george.deaneyx~xxbtinternet.com Date: Sun Nov 23, 2008 11:26 am ((PST)) Ok guys, the complete story: The rings will be cable guides, made from threaded rod because that's what I have. These have to be made for tomorrow and there was no time to get standard rod and then put a short thread on them (I have an inline die holder). I appreciate that the rods might develop cracks at the bend, but it is unlikely. I have changed track and the problem is now sorted. There was no real need to use rings, and the only reason to use rings was that the original ones were round and now too small. After a few drinks, it was apparent that this was stupid (the idea that is), and a better way was to use one of small pipe benders that I have and just make them in a square. The job is now complete ready for tomorrow. Thanks for all the suggestions, and I still might make a ring bender for future use when I have more time. George ------- bending break [shopbuilttools] Posted by: "Bill" emailreqdx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Apr 23, 2009 11:36 am ((PDT)) Anyone have plans for building a bending break? I'm working with small stuff; doesn't need to be larger than 6" - 12", but if you have plans for a larger unit, I'm sure I could work with that. Thanks much. Bill ------- Re: bending break Posted by: "Kelly Wilson" kellyx~xxwalnutcreekhills.net Date: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:26 pm ((PDT)) I just spent a 100.00 from Harbor Freight. I haven't had time to use it yet. It has a nice hinge set up but the clamping is still a problem. I thought I could add to the design a bit. Just my 2 cents. Kelly in Van Meter Iowa.. ------- Re: bending break Posted by: "bobo smith" bobo81341x~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:29 pm ((PDT)) You mite like to take a look at ( www.harborfreight.com ) 3 in 1 metal working machine to get some idea on that kind of brake as they work real good and are not too hard to build. They also have a brake that you can use in a vice that you could also make it would handle small work. Bobo ------- Re: bending break crack, rip, tear, or rend Posted by: "Paul" pfrederick1x~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:07 pm ((PDT)) Sometimes when I bend metal too far it breaks. Oh you mean a bending brake? Well that is different ... I usually just clamp two heavy pieces of steel around sheet metal if I need brake action. I don't really do it enough to even justify the shop space a bending brake would take up. Let alone the time and materials it'd take to make a real one. Good brakes have fingers. If I was to get one I'd want a shear, brake, slip roll combination machine. That I could almost justify the shop space for. http://www.harborfreight.com/manuals/5000-5999/5907.PDF Paul ------- Re: bending break Posted by: "Bob Thomas" echnidnax~xxyahoo.com.au Date: Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:28 am ((PDT)) here, http://www.vintageprojects.com/machine-shop/press-brake-plans.html ------- Re: bending break Posted by: "mkc1951x~xxsbcglobal.net" Date: Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:26 am ((PDT)) Here is one that I build, Bill. A friend gave me one built from light gage angle and a 3/8" bolt through a drilled hole. It was very primitive and had a lot of flex so I decided to design and build my own. It has worked out very nicely but I do intend to add a stiffener to it. I have a lot of scrap 1/2" x 2" channel that I cut as needed for boxes that eliminates the need for a finger brake. http://mkctools.com/sheetmetalbrake.htm I don't have any detailed plans for it but I would be glad to help any way I can. See some of my other shop projects at http://mkctools.com/shopprojects.htm Skip Campbell Ft. Worth, Texas ------- Re: bending break Posted by: "telecentric33" mbostonsprintx~xxearthlink.net Date: Fri Apr 24, 2009 3:31 pm ((PDT)) I just loaded up a few photos to "Telecentric's stuff" if you want to see a small press brake I built that will do 6" wide stock. I've bent 6" wide 1/8" thk. 5052 aluminum, and a lot of smaller stuff. The parts in the picture showing the small bent brackets with the 6" scale are .036" stainless, FWIW. I could send you an AutoCad dwg file if you want to get this involved. BTW, the hydraulic press is not part of what I built... Matt ------- Re: Tube Bender [shopbuilttools] Posted by: "Ken" zrf1jx~xxyahoo.ca Date: Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:57 am ((PDT)) Does anyone have a set of tube bender plans? Thanks Ken ------- Re: Tube Bender Posted by: "holtdoa" rjhanbyx~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Apr 24, 2009 1:31 pm ((PDT)) Bend metal tube? I've seen a technique where you fill the tube with sand, then heat and bend. ------- Re: Tube Bender Posted by: "Chris (CB)" boyerclx~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Apr 24, 2009 2:24 pm ((PDT)) This company has some free plans. Yes they will send them to you for free. http://www.pro-tools.com/ They have dies and other bending equipment as well. ------- Re: Tube Bender Posted by: "Kelly Wilson" kellyx~xxwalnutcreekhills.net Date: Sat Apr 25, 2009 8:06 pm ((PDT)) Try this http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/tube-bender/tube-bender.html ------- Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 06:52:39 -0700 From: James Thompson Subject: [OldTools] Metal spinning Yesterday I attended a demonstration by an expert doing metal spinning. My woodturning club gets experts to do these demos several times a year, and they are always worth the money. We had 16 attendees who each paid $40, and that covered the cost. The verbal instructions took about 3 hours, and the presenter was extremely interesting. I really learned a lot. One of the most useful facts was that if you want to anneal aluminum, you make a mark on it with a Sharpie pen, then heat the aluminum with a propane torch until the Sharpie mark disappears. The aluminum is annealed and can go back into the lathe. I'll bet you didn't know that. I sure didn't. The demo took 8 full hours, and each of us got to spin a piece of pewter into a bowl while under the watchful eye of the instructor. He used only pewter for the demo because aluminum, brass, and copper all require annealing during the process, while pewter does not work harden. There was no way for us to anneal anything in the shop where this demo took place. The most amazing part of spinning is turning the lip of the bowl back doubling the thickness of the edge. And this is done with a sharp stick, believe it or not! By the way, he said that a 6" diameter piece of pewter of .050" thickness costs $5. We were also shown how to polish the metals after they were spun. Different grades of the nylon mesh stuff, followed by creams from the motorcycle shop. The metals can be polished to the appearance of bright chrome. Now I have another slippery slope to slide down. It will be a while before I can start doing spinning at home because there are several tools that one must make or buy, and the cost is not within my budget, meaning I will make the tools, which are really pretty simple to make, and inexpensive. Except for the vacuum chuck, but he showed us how to make one of those. Jim Thompson, the old Millrat in Riverside, CA. ------- Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 15:22:29 +0100 From: "Maddex, Peter" Subject: RE: [OldTools] Metal spinning Hi, I know the soap and water lather it up, and heat it until the lather goes black method. Peter Michael Maddex ------- Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 10:45:14 -0400 From: "Dennis Yanan" Subject: Re: [OldTools] Metal spinning JIm - a friend of mine who has a sheet metal shop has been trying to push me down that slope. I went up to his shop last year and he showed me how to do it - it is pretty neat. What he ends up using are actually maple blanks - he doesn't bother with the vacuum chuck. He turns whatever shape he needs out of the maple, and then sandwiches the sheet metal between the blanks. The tools are easy to make - he made his (of course he has a complete metal fabrication shop at his disposal too), and has offered to make them for me if I start spinning. Right now, I still need to get my lathe set up and just start playing with wood turning, but hopefully that's going to happen this weekend. I don't remember him saying anything about the metal needing to be annealed, but it's probable that I forgot. I do know that I offered to come up to his shop on weekends and do it for free for him, in order to learn how to do it properly (he spent about half an hour showing me). Anyway, it's another slope among many, and just as slippery as the others (unfortunately). Have fun with it. Dennis ------- Spinning [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "indianfourrider" indianfourriderx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Jul 18, 2010 1:16 pm ((PDT)) I have posted an album titled, "Spinning." I thought it best to start a new thread in response to Scott's request for some pictures. It's hard to describe the process. I'm sure that there are accepted procedures for this but here's what works for me. 500 rpm works for an 18 ga. steel disc 6 3/4" diameter. The vertical post on the tool rest is set so the tool is at about a 20 degree angle to the disc. The height of the tool rest should allow the tool to be close to parallel to the floor when placed at 6:00 o'clock on the disc. The tip of the tool is wedge-shaped to allow various contact surfaces with the work. The disc is lubed with a piece of hand soap. (From the smell I've been using Ivory!) Pressure is applied is a sweeping motion, moving the tip of the tool towards the headstock and the outer edge of the disc. As the metal forms to the die, the vertical post is moved closer to the die to get the best leverage. It takes a good deal of pressure to make the metal move. I really have to put my body into it. The padded end of the tool fits in my armpit and after making 6 plates I have a pretty good bruise! I've seen pictures of 'real' spinning tools and they're quite a bit longer than mine. I recall finding some videos on uTube, but I didn't save the links... I hope this is helpful. ------- Re: Spinning Posted by: "Mike Nicewonger" twmasterx~xxtwmaster.com Date: Sun Jul 18, 2010 2:30 pm ((PDT)) > I have posted an album titled, "Spinning." Ok, now that is pretty neat. Most of the things I've seen that have that look I had always assumed were somehow pressed. > I hope this is helpful. Very. Combined with some videos I found on Y-T that's a nifty setup you have. Thank you. Mike N -------- Re: Spinning Posted by: "James Walther" indianfourriderx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:11 pm ((PDT)) Mike, Thanks for the kind words. The originals were stamped. I had an original 1941 plate and could see the draw marks. Spinning can be good alternative for small runs since wooden dies are way cheaper than steel. I make these 6 at a time. There's not a lot of demand - 1 year only, 1 model only application! The first run took about a year to disburse; this one may not last as long - 3 are already sold and they're not back from powder coat yet! Jim -------- Re: Spinning Posted by: "James Walther" indianfourriderx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:11 pm ((PDT)) I have a few links squirreled away that might be of interest. http://www.aardvark.co.nz/pjet/spinning1.shtml http://www.stanford.edu/group/prl/documents/pdf/spinning.pdf I can't say I've done more than scan either, so am interested to hear what you have to say if you look into them. Too many projects, too few Round Tuits. Jim ------- Tube former [myfordlathes] Posted by: "Bobble" salter_bobx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Oct 8, 2010 1:49 pm ((PDT)) This is slightly off topic but it still involves turning. I need to make a former to bend tube around. I have the axminster copy of the groz bender, so all that is required is a delrin circle with a groove the same diameter (5/16) as the tube being cut around it. Do I get a bit of 5/16 tool steel and grind a semicircular profile or is there a quick and dirty way to do it? If you can't visualize the former there is a youtube clip which shows it quite well at 2.36 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7ySuxiUvAY Only difference is its not a home made bender. U bend radius will be 22mm (if I'm that brave I'll probably make it a little bigger). What do you think? Bob ------- Re: Tube former Posted by: "John" johnx~xxstevenson-engineers.co.uk Date: Fri Oct 8, 2010 2:53 pm ((PDT)) Get a 5/16" ball bearing, braze it to a finger of steel, then grind the top half off the ball away. This will give you a circular D bit type of form tool with an exact radius on it Will also cut steel brass etc. John S. ------- Re: Tube former Posted by: "David Everett" deverett2003x~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Sat Oct 9, 2010 12:40 am ((PDT)) I am making a tube bender for some 5/16" brass tube. In the quick and dirty category, I am going to try and use a flat bottomed former, the thinking being that the tube touches the sides and the bottom but should not need support on the corners (hopefully!). My radius will be about 1" or slightly larger and I was going to fill the bend area with Cerrobend. Filling the tube with water and freezing it overnight has also been suggested as well as sand, sugar - anything to prevent the walls collapsing. Dave The Emerald Isle ------- Re: Tube former Posted by: "Frank Chadwick" fr4nk.chadwickx~xxtiscali.co.uk Date: Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:05 am ((PDT)) Dave: Thinking about tube bending, it is only when bending freehand, say over your knee that the sides can spread and the top and bottom come together. The sides of your former should prevent the tube becoming wider and so prevent collapse. Filling the tube with say Cerrobend has a similar effect in that the maximum cross sectional area of a pipe occurs when it is circular and the material doesn't compress. Hope this makes sense, Frank C. ------- Re: Tube former Posted by: "David Everett" deverett2003x~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:32 am ((PDT)) I hope you are right, Frank (says he with tongue in cheek). My main worry is that when bending thin wall brass tubing it will crack during the bend. (5/16" dia,, 0.014 wall thickness, 1" radius). I have annealed the tube. We'll see how it goes. I have been procrastinating for at least 6 months! DaveThe Emerald Isle ------- Re: Tube former Posted by: "Bobble" salter_bobx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Oct 11, 2010 12:13 pm ((PDT)) You aren't trying to bend hobby shop tubing are you? The brass it is made from is far too hard even after annealing. Also there isn't enough material to stretch around the bend. I wasted about three years trying to bend it. I now use 22swg at the thinnest for u bends. John Keatley metals in England has a good range. The drawings I am working from suggest a tube wall thickness of 1.25mm although when I tried that thickness it was incredibly hard to bend. Cheers Bob ------- Re: Tube former Posted by: "David Everett" deverett2003x~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:21 pm ((PDT)) Thanks for the heads up, Bob. Yes it is the thin wall stuff - the K & S tube. Sounds like I will be wasting my time (and money) with it. Will go and look for some heavier wall tube. Dave The Emerald Isle ------- Re: Tube former Posted by: "Frank Chadwick" fr4nk.chadwickx~xxtiscali.co.uk Date: Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:42 am ((PDT)) David, I agree with Bob, my only bending experience has been with copper tubing which is far more ductile than most brasses; but you do need sufficient thickness whatever material you use. Frank C. ------- Re: Tube former Posted by: "David Everett" deverett2003x~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Tue Oct 12, 2010 1:53 am ((PDT)) Frank: As you say, copper is easy to bend. I have heard many stories of brass cracking during bending, hence my bout of procrastination. Dave The Emerald Isle ------- Re: Tube former Posted by: "chris p" chrsparrx~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:55 am ((PDT)) Have used the following bender for the past 10yrs on ali,brass, copper, stainless steel tube with zero failures: http://www.hemingwaykits.com/acatalog/Tube_Bender.html ------- Re: Tube former Posted by: "Bobble" salter_bobx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:13 pm ((PDT)) I use this one and it rocks: http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-axminster-metal-bender-prod564184/ I've just had a good night's bending. I'll post a pic of what I've just done if anyone wishes to see. Cheers Bob ------- Spring winding on a taig mill [taigtools] Posted by: "javaguy11111" javaguy11111x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:11 pm ((PDT)) I needed to make some springs. Since I am prototyping it is hard to know what I need exactly, so I decided to use my cnc taig mill to do the winding for me. You can see the video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twHA3vzaETs ------- Re: Spring winding on a taig mill Posted by: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" felicex~xxcasco.net Date: Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:15 pm ((PDT)) Cool! I was considering the same operation for making some solenoids, good to know the concept works. felicex~xxcasco.net is Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein. Learn more about us at http://www.nickandfelice.com ------- Re: Spring winding on a taig mill Posted by: "javaguy11111" javaguy11111x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:29 pm ((PDT)) Several years ago I modified a taig lathe to do something similar. I used steppers to drive the headstock and crossfeed. Since I was winding 30 gauge and smaller magnet wire I also made a tensioner that would activate a switch to to advance another stepper to maintain tension and feed wire as needed. Worked all the way down to 40 gauge wire no problem. That machine has long since been disassembled so I do not have any pics of it. It was probably overkill for what I needed to do at the time, but it was fun project to build. ------- Re: Spring winding on a taig mill Posted by: "Dean" deanofidx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:20 pm ((PDT)) Pretty neat. I've been making springs on my lathes for years. Never thought to use the mill. www.deansphotographica.com/machining/projects/springs/springs.html www.deansphotographica.com/machining/projects/springs2/springs2.html ------- Re: Spring winding on a taig mill Posted by: "javaguy11111" javaguy11111x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:47 pm ((PDT)) Hi Dean, Your site was one of the ones I looked at when I researching making my own springs. It was very helpful. ------- Re: Spring winding on a taig mill Posted by: "Boman01" boman01x~xxvinland.com Date: Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:52 pm ((PDT)) Thanks Dean, An excellent write-up as always. Bertho ------- Re: Spring winding on a taig mill Posted by: "Bertho Boman" boman01x~xxvinland.com Date: Sun Mar 13, 2011 3:21 pm ((PDT)) I too did some multilayer coil winding on the Taig. I added three photos of the setup in "Bertho's Picture" album. The Taig was running CNC using Mach-3. Bertho ------- Re: Spring winding on a taig mill Posted by: "mrehmus" editorx~xxmodelenginebuilder.com Date: Sat Mar 19, 2011 5:34 pm ((PDT)) > You can see the video at > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twHA3vzaETs Neat. You can get rid of that outboard support for the mandrel and use mandrels as long as you want by supporting a forked-stick style of mandrel from the spindle. I'll upload a picture of this tool as used in the tool holder of a Sherline lathe. A quick tip: Transfer punch sets make great mandrels and you get a great selection of sizes. The punch sets are relatively cheap too. ------- Re: Spring winding on a taig mill Posted by: "mrehmus" editorx~xxmodelenginebuilder.com Date: Mon Mar 21, 2011 3:34 pm ((PDT)) "javaguy11111" wrote: > Good idea on the punches. I have a set, but did not think of that. > I will be interested to see what the support forks looks like. Here is the URL to the one picture I uploaded: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/taigtools/photos/album/1051685924/pic/list This 'fork' winding tool is designed to run on a small lathe and be held in a cutoff tool holder. Obviously the design of the spindle-mounted wire feed would have to be changed to accommodate this. ------- Re: Tubing flares [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Ray" ray.waldbaumx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:19 am ((PDT)) Bruce Koch wrote: > I got an ad from an auto tool supplier this evening, and it offered a very nice looking turret style machine for making flares in 5 sizes of tubing in three types of flares. The price was on special at $229. I am a bit of a cheap charlie and prefer to make my own tools. Anyone out there ever seen any plans for making something like this? < Bruce, a very inexpensive flaring tools that fits in the palm of your hand does a perfect single or double flare without the bling. How do I know? I have had one for decades. For a discussion of this topic see stovebolt.com To some guys one's manhood is a function of the size, complexity and cost of their tools (the ones in the toolbox). To others it's what gets the job done. ------- Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 10:28:42 -0500 From: WesG Subject: [OldTools] "Bending" brass So... Easiest way to put a 90 degree angle in brass stock is to remove 90 degrees worth of material, then bend the joint closed and solder the joint. Tools needed: A metal cutting saw. (preferably a jeweler's saw, but a hacksaw would probably work as well.) A square file. (small and fine with one safe side.) Available at all fine jewelry tool suppliers. Solder. (don't get me started.) So first job is a test cut. 1. Using your saw, cut a kerf 90 degrees across your stock and about 2/3 the way through your stock. 2. Using the kerf as a guide for your file start filing a V across your stock. It's important to keep the sides of the V equal in size. If you go too far on one side, you can re-align it by using your safe side on the large part of the V so the small side gets filed until the sides match. 3. You're done filing when you've left just a thin strip of stock connecting the two sides of the V. This thin strip needs to be the same thickness across the stock, or your joint will not bend evenly. 4. Using the *shoulders* of your V cut as your guide, lay out the inside measurements for your workpiece, you can lay out the cuts needed to create your parts. (Example: if the brass band needs to slide over 1/4" x 1" wood sticks, then the shoulders of your Vs need to be 1" and 1/4" apart, plus a smidge to allow for movement.) I like to use the inside dimensions because they're more critical than the outside measurement for this application. I'm sure there's some math you can do to decide where to make your saw cuts, but for me it's faster to just do the work and adjust the position of the V as I file, using the safe side of the file. 5. Once you have your Vs where you want them, you flux the inside of the V, bend each joint closed, heat the joint and flow solder into it. (I was taught to lay the joint on its end and place a tab of solder under it. When the brass is hot the solder will be sucked up into the joint.) Soft solder is fine, heat with a propane or mapp torch, remove the heat a few seconds after the solder flows to avoid damaging the thin strip of brass. This method lets you do very precisely sized pieces with actual 90 degree bends, instead of messy jankety bent corners, which look terrible unless they're done on a large workpiece (IMHO). I'm sorry I can't provide pictures. I barely have time to type this. Cheers, Wes ------- Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 13:19:12 +1000 From: Peter McBride Subject: Re: [OldTools] Bending Brass Bar Stock On 13/04/2012 4:59 AM, Robert Hutchins wrote: > Thank you, all! > As usual, I was over thinking the solution. I use those big paper > clips for lots of things including for clamping some glue-ups. I > have a supply in all sizes from gigantic to tiny. They will be an > excellent solution for making bar gauges in any size needed. > > But, I think I really just want to learn how to work brass. I'm > thinking that I might want to use brass for some other tinkering. > So, I'm refining the question for those of you who have the experience. > > In this drawing > (http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w469/RHHutchins/3versions.jpg), > the bottom piece was my original concept of the slotting using a > square profile. The diagonal lines indicate the axis of the bend and > the material removed was half the thickness. The slots are all on the > inner part of the bend, not the outer. The middle piece shows > adapting the slot or groove to a V as recommended. I set the width > dimension at the top equal to the thickness of the bar stock and set > the depth of the groove to 1/2 the thickness. In the top drawing, I > made the depth of the groove 3/4 the thickness of the slot. I'm > trying to show what I learned - or failed to learn - from your posts. > Please correct any misconceptions I've demonstrated. > > Again, thank you all for the responses and good advice. > Bob Hutchins Temple, TX, USA Bob, I've been a little busy lately, and missed your original post. If you decide on cutting a "V" groove in the brass, and bending it up, here is a suggestion I might offer which is used to make a bezel setting for a square or rectangular gemstone. I usually do it in about 0.5mm thick gold or platinum. However I have done it in brass just like you are doing. Take two pieces that are long enough to go around 2 sides plus a little extra, and do the "V" groove and solder, making an "L" shape in both of them, where the long side is slightly longer than than the width of the piece of stock going inside, and the short side, the bottom of the "L" is just over the thickness of the stock to go through. Now file carefully the ends of the short lengths square and to length to give yourelf a nice clearance. You now have two "L" shaped pieces you can place together and hold in position with binding wire, with the long sides providing a nice overlap, which is a convienient platform to feed in some solder. Saw the overlap off, file to match the slight radius that is an artifact of the first "V" cut and bend. If the solder is close to the colour of the base metal, the joints will very alike, and you have avoided the problem of getting it to go around the stock. Then do the rest of your construction, and cut away part of the collars you just made if they have to be a "C" shape, as they are in your picture. Now that's lots of words to describe what we simply call a double "L" bezel gemstone setting. It is adaptable to other constructions, where you need make a collar around something and bending it to fit is a bit of a guessing game. If it isn't clear from my description, let me know and I will do a couple of sketches, or even just take some brass and show it. If I want to make a piece go all around, cutting mitres out as I go, I can show that with a sketch much easier...since I'm such a slow typist. Will follow up with that technique a little later....However I would encourage you to go all around and make a rectangle, and cut the waste out, it gets the thing nice and square. I may be repeating some of these tricks you have heard from others, but I have had a virus software deleting messages in my inbox lately, and not certain I've read all the posts, Regards, Peter In Melbourne, Australia. ------- Re: Spring Measurements [taigtools] Posted by: "Ken Cline" clinex~xxfrii.com Date: Tue Jul 3, 2012 8:18 am ((PDT)) On 3 Jul 2012, Boman33 wrote: >Since I needed to measure a spring used for my 3D printer, the Ultimaker, >I documented the steps both for a high accuracy measurement procedure and >a simplified one. http://www.vinland.com/Spring-Testing.html Coil springs have good linearity, as you have seen. I once had fun analyzing the springiness of a nylon climbing rope. Turns out even nylon ropes act a lot like linear springs while being stretched, but exhibit nonlinear (probably time dependent) hysteresis as they relax. I don't remember if I got the idea here, but a CNC Iaig with rotary table is handy for making custom springs when you really need them: Piano wire fed through a guide in the spindle is wrapped onto a mandrel on the rotary table. Be sure to reverse the rotary table to relieve tension when removing the spring. Cut the spring to length, and anneal it in a toaster oven. It takes a couple of tries to determine the correct mandrel size and wrapping strategy since the spring expands a bit after forming, but once you get it dialed in the process is nicely repeatable. ------- Re: Spring Measurements Posted by: "Paul J. Ste. Marie" taigx~xxste-marie.org Date: Wed Jul 4, 2012 11:30 am ((PDT)) Time and temp? ------- Re: Spring Measurements Posted by: "Ken Cline" clinex~xxfrii.com Date: Wed Jul 4, 2012 1:50 pm ((PDT)) I just set it to broil (500-600F) for about 10 minutes - long enough to thoroughly heat the spring. Let it cool at room temperature and the magic has been done! ------- Metal spinning [myfordlathes] Posted by: "Haydut1200" haydut1200x~xxgooglemail.com Date: Thu Nov 8, 2012 3:05 pm ((PST)) Kevin said, > Changing the subject, today I tried metal spinning, to prove to myself > that I can, and proved that I can't! I watched a DVD a month or six back on metal spinning and was fascinated. It made me wonder if it was possible on my ML7. I got no further than wondering. Martin ------- Re: Metal spinning Posted by: "werallomed" sardinesarniex~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Nov 8, 2012 3:34 pm ((PST)) I did a bit of metal spinning many years ago...just to see what it was like, really. I used a Harrison L5, (am I allowed to use the Harrison word here? :-0 ). I made the form, or blank/mould, call it what you will, from a wooden block screwed to a chunk of round bar held in the chuck. The forming tools...the bits that do the actual forming, were made from mild steel bar with polished ends and file handles, crudely held in/on a pegged toolrest clamped in the toolpost. The metal I used was called guilding metal (German silver?) as this is what I had been recommended to use. I used household soap as a lubricant between the forming tool and the workpiece. It's a long time ago, but I do remember having to occassionally anneal the workpiece as it work hardens. I also remember the wooden former block getting so hot through friction, that it started to char on the inside! The workshop had a long-lasting smell of fairy soap and charred wood for quite some time! The resulting goblet was reasonably satisfactory, although the metal had thinned down quite a lot by the time I had finished manipulating it along the form. I've seen commercial metal spinning done professionally within the last few years, and it really is something to watch. I saw large clock rims and aero fan casings being spun on very large spinning lathes. The chap making the clock rims was knocking them out like there was no tomorrow. kind regards ------- Re: Metal spinning Posted by: "werallomed" sardinesarniex~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Nov 8, 2012 3:46 pm ((PST)) Could you spin metal on a ML7? Yes, I don't see why not, just observe the principles and techniques seen on youtube, and scale it down to Myford lathe proportions. You would need to make a toolrest and one or two of the 'former' tools. I would suggest trying something very simple spun in aluminium or copper sheet to start with. kind regards ------- Re: Metal spinning Posted by: "home10410072x~xxaol.com" Date: Thu Nov 8, 2012 4:56 pm ((PST)) The French/Canadian cable TV show, 'How It's Made' has several examples of metal spinning available on You Tube. Search for the Hollow-ware, Trumpet or Tuba programs and I think something should turn up. Fascinating stuff... Simon ------- Re: Metal spinning Posted by: "Bob Hamilton" bobx~xxhamilton-bob.freeserve.co.uk Date: Fri Nov 9, 2012 12:12 am ((PST)) I made a few items for motorcycle exhausts and had most success using a bearing of the type with a radius on the outer race as used in a pedestal type assembly. I mounted this on a bar that I gripped in the toolpost. I had most success -- in fact really the only success -- using a much heavier machine than our Myfords and unless you are using very light material, I would not consider trying metal spinning with a Myford. I feel the loading on the headstock bearings is just too much. As usual, just my 2 pennies worth. Incidentally, the DVDs make it look Soooooo easy and it ain't. Bob ------- Re: Metal spinning Posted by: "PRowe73937x~xxaol.com" Date: Fri Nov 9, 2012 8:24 am ((PST)) Hi All, Not sure if this is true metal spinning, but I once tried on a Myford (ML4) to form a flare on a piece of brass tube to make a petticoat pipe for a Rob Roy that I was building. I used a piece of polished BMS I think about 3/8 inch diameter, pivoting against a vertical peg arrangement held in the tool post. It was successful, I needed to anneal the tube several times as it seemed to work harden very rapidly, I have no idea what grade of brass the tube was, just something from the scrap box. But what surprised me was the phenomenal amount of pressure I had to apply to the steel bar to get the brass to form even the smallest amount. As has been said before, far too much strain on a small lathe like a Myford. It did at least allow me to complete the petticoat pipe, but I have never attempted anything like it since even though I am now the proud owner of a Super 7. Phil ------- Re: Metal spinning Posted by: "Andrew Moyes" admx~xxamoyes.fsbusiness.co.uk Date: Fri Nov 9, 2012 9:14 am ((PST)) I quite fancy going on a metal spinning course here: http://www.metalspinningworkshop.com/hand_tools_metal_spinning.html Has anyone been on one? I have already dropped hints to 'er indoors as an idea for a Christmas present... If you click on Movies there are a couple of short videos including making a full size propeller spinner. He makes it look easy! Andrew M ------- Re: Metal spinning Posted by: "Haydut1200" haydut1200x~xxgooglemail.com Date: Fri Nov 9, 2012 9:42 am ((PST)) I think the movie clips are from the DVD I saw. I remember him using the American pronunciation of "vase". Definitely the same guy. Martin ------- Punching holes - was: group traffic [shopbuilttools] Posted by: "Rod" granthamsx~xxwiktel.com rodney_grantham Date: Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:27 pm ((PST)) > Right now I am interested in seeing some of you guys solutions to punching holes in sheet metal rather than drilling. I want to build a tool that is deep throat, 12" at least & maybe 18-24" deep, and capable of punching a hole up to Quarter Inch in Diameter, I would perfer something hand operated and larger diameters would be a bonus. larger diameters would most likely require power..... Maybe an option? Anyway Let me see some Ideas and welcome to a New Year. < We punch holes with both a W A Whitney 10 ton deep throat and Heinrich 8" punch routinely in 1/8" steel. To punch holes in thicker material there are two things to consider. First the punch needs to be formed so it shears as it punches and second the amount of clearance between the punch and die must be greater for thicker material. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shopbuilttools/photos/al bum/1739891732/pic/list is a link to my photo album that also shows a couple photos of the prototype rim chuck I built. Our W A Whitney punch is capable of punching a 2" diameter hole in 1/4" mild steel while our Heinrich max is a 1/2" hole in 1/8" steel. You can see the W A Whitney punch in action with a 3 1/2" punch and die we made originally for plastic lenses for clocks. My video about metal spinning shows this punch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7QB0-AlwtI And the Whitney punch is used for a number of other shapes like square, rectangle, obround and a couple custom punch and dies we had made. We have made so many custom punches in our shop, it makes one wonder how we ever got along without one. A drill press is great, but ... Back in 1979 we changed press manufacturers in our print shop from Multilith to Ryobi. The Ryobi had one issue that took us about half an hour to change the blanket. And changing the blanket sometimes 10 times a day got old. My solution was to make a Quick Change Blanket Bar that allows a blanket change in less than a minute. http://www.granthams.com/Bars/ shows what I'm talking about. It was not my intention to start manufacturing blanket bars, but when other shops and printing equipment dealers found out about them, like they say the rest is history. If you want more info about punching holes in metal, just ask, I'd like to help. Rod ------- Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 21:44:26 -0400 From: David Nighswander Subject: RE: [OldTools] WTB - couple of screws snip > From: nicknaylox~xxaol.com > Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 23:43:05 -0400 > I just bought a half pound of 1/4 and 5/16 soft iron rivets from that > same Ace, emptying out the old, small bins in the back. > I read an interview with Francis Whitaker recently. He said "The last > time I found a good place to buy iron rivets, I bought 25,000. That's > a lot of rivets. but they will never be any easier to get or > less expensive" Rather than buying rivets in the hope that you will have the one you need perhaps making rivets to fit the need will work better. http://youtu.be/mRrmLGKGpVg Not that I have anything against purchasing, finding, saving, or just hoarding miscellaneous boxes of hardware, but if you can make your own from scrap you have reason to save everything. Ha Ha and my wife thinks me mad I say. Ha Ha. Dave N. aka Old Sneelock's Workshop ------- Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 12:34:45 -0400 From: John Ruth Subject: RE: [OldTools] WTB - couple of screws Dave's taking us up to the top of the slippery rivet slope....I got lucky with that; an estate sale yielded a half pint jar of assorted rivets. It's a good thing that I didn't over-buy at Ruskin Industrial Hardware in Jersey City before they went belly-up. Old man Ruskin had barrels and barrels of various rivets, up to shipbuilder sizes, and the associated tools such as drive-out punches. Perhaps one of my better old-tooling decisions was that I restrained myself. (I did relieve his shelves of a NOS Stanley router plane, though!) I stopped by there one day, and the whole place had been cleaned out to the walls, no notice, no G.O.O.B. sale, nothing. John Ruth ------- Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 14:58:37 -0400 (EDT) From: nicknaylox~xxaol.com Subject: Re: [OldTools] WTB - couple of screws Nice little tutorial you have there. Oh I can make rivets if I have to, but having some stock on hands will overcome that oh-so-common occurrence of having a project stop short for want of a .....blurfl.......to set up the smithy, light the forge and make the part I need. but that turn of phrase " they will never be any easier to get or less expensive" struck home, especially for a brief moment when I had more $ than time. Michael S ------- Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 14:09:55 -0700 From: scott grandstaff Subject: Re: [OldTools] Now Rivets I make rivets often. Saving nails, and aluminum nails and spikes, brass pins and even brazing rod. Lots of sources. Plus old stock rivets are pretty easy to get if you begin to look and let them follow you home. There are never enough and never enough sizes, but they are a pure pleasure to use!! Manufactured rivets are made from buttery soft annealed stock. You are going to work harden them when you set them, so they start out so fast and easy to work. I will always use a manufactured rivet if I get a chance. What I didn't see, and am practically scared to mention, are rivet sets!! Whether you are making your own or using commercially made rivet, rivet sets are the bomb! Looks like a rectangular bar of steel with a 1/2 circle divot on one side of the business end, and a blind hole on the other. You pound on the top so nearly all will have at least a slight mushroom when you find them. The blind hole is for driving your stock together if the rivet is a tight fit. You can also head up a rivet in it, but only one size and length, so its not really that good for this. You start heading the rivet with a hammer as always, but when you get close to the end? Use the rivet set and that gives the final rolldown of the rivet, better than you can do by hand, by far! If you have the right size set for the job you can make a beautiful, sweet, even, domed rivet head. This was a matter of pride once, pretty rivet heads. They come in lots of sizes. You need lots of sizes, and I still need a few more!! Now you know why I was afraid to mention it. I am afraid of too much competition on the scrounge market. I would post a picture, but that would make it even worse. :) yours Scott Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html ------- Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 10:10:58 +1100 From: Peter McBride Subject: Re: [OldTools] Now Rivets Scott, something like these... http://www.petermcbride.com/temp/images/riv_sets.jpg The one at the back was my Dad's, cannot remember a time when it wasn't on the shelf between the workshop windows (before I inherited it). Older than I am! The one at the front was with some tools I bought from a local garage sale a few months ago. Sizes...5/32 at the back, by Greg Steel a local maker in Melbourne, and at the front 3/16 by (Ahrem's) Good Line, Germany. These are pretty common around here, but most folk don't know what they are. Regards, Peter, Now at.....Main Ridge, Vic Australia. ------- Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 18:43:36 -0700 From: scott grandstaff Subject: Re: [OldTools] Now Rivets > Scott, something like these... > http://www.petermcbride.com/temp/images/riv_sets.jpg Awww geeze Peter. There you go snitching me off! And now I will never see another one in the junk boxes -- underneath -- the table, on the ground, where these things belong! I don't think I ever even paid anything, for any of mine. Always just lumped into a junk buy of other dross, like that were nuthin at all! Nobody knows what these are. They are just some broken part of something else and not worth a nickel!! heehehehehehheehehhehehheheh Oh and PS. Yes I have made a few in sizes I couldn't find. One is not too bad. A grade 8 Caterpillar bolt makes a decent set. Just the dome header part. Like an oversized cup point nailset. Another was tried from a standard 1/4" bolt (the built in striking head on both these seemed like a good idea) but it's way too soft. Hardly holds up to brass, that one. yours Scott ------- Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 17:24:35 -0400 From: "ASRA-Eduardo De Diego" Subject: RE: [OldTools] Now Rivets Scott; I've never seen one of these in the wild, but it sounds like a tool that would be dead simple to make with bar stock (scraps, etc.). Am I missing something? e. ------- Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 16:34:00 -0500 From: WesG Subject: Re: [OldTools] Now Rivets And another riveting thing: If the job calls for a flush head rivet, after you drill the rivet hole in your workpiece, grab a larger drill bit and chamfer the edge of the hole that will be facing outward. This little bevel will provide enough room for a flush head rivet to be strong and invisible. Fascinating. Wes ------- Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 14:42:46 -0700 From: James Thompson Subject: Re: [OldTools] Now Rivets I have used many a rivet set in a pneumatic tool when working on aircraft skins. These are made to specific sizes, and are pretty well finished inside the set pocket, and they are hardened. It would be easy to make something like a quality rivet set, but correctly sized and finished, not so much. I think it just looks easy. ------- Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 16:58:34 -0500 From: WesG Subject: Re: [OldTools] Now Rivets And yet another thing about making rivets. So let's say you need lots of rivets of the same diameter but random lengths: You'll need two chunks of steel. Probably at least a 1/2 inch thick. These should be sized to fit in your strongest vise. A decent example would be 2 pieces, 1/2" square stock 4" long. So let's say you want to make 3/16 diameter rivets... Put the two pieces of steel in your vise with a business card stuck between them. Using your Yankee 1555 breast drill and your 3/16 inch bit, drill a hole vertically through the business card. The drill should follow the joint in the two pieces of steel, half the hole in one side and half in the other side. (You can drill different sized holes in the same manner and have a die for a variety of rivet sizes.) Now get a mild steel rod 3/16 diameter from any local family-owned hardware store. When you put the rod through the hole you drilled and clamp it in the vise it will hold well enough for you to create a head on the end of the rod. (Rule of thumb is 1.5 x the diameter should stick out of the die to create a round head using your rivet header if you have one.) Then you just cut it off to the length you need and make another. If you're joining two pieces of 1/8 thick steel with a 3/16 inch dia. rivet, the raw material for the rivet will be (2 x 1/8) + 2(1.5 x 3/16) = 13/16" ... Lots of rivets in a 3 foot long rod. Back to work. Wes ------- Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 18:42:35 -0400 (EDT) From: nicknaylox~xxaol.com Subject: Re: [OldTools] Now Rivets Upper right hand corner of the this pic, examples of rivet sets. http://www.flickr.com/photos/10735775x~xxN04/4610067539/in/photostream I had not seen or even thought of these tools since sheet metal shop in the late 70's. On the other hand, this was a very productive garage sale, a couple of blocks from my kid's school. Not only a cut off hardy, but a marked ATHA cut off hardy in the 7/8 size that fits my anvil! Walking on a cloud for a week after THAT find! Michael S-who tried to use the largest rivet set yesterday to round out the eyes of some forged dragonflys. ------- Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 10:24:24 -0500 From: CGRAF Subject: Re: [OldTools] Now Rivets I could see that working. Try a tool made from a round rod with a dimpled end. It will get relief on the outside of the eye, that is denied by the flats on the rivet set. Mike Graf ------- Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 12:45:43 -0400 (EDT) From: nicknaylox~xxaol.com Subject: Re: [OldTools] Now Rivets Yes, I always think of that just when the hot bar with the dragonfly on the end is held down on the anvil. I think I'll leave myself a note on the chalkboard out in the smithy. *make eye punch FIRST* Furthering the lessons learned making bottle openers and not having any beer to *test* them out on. Michael S ------- Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 19:10:02 -0400 From: "ASRA-Eduardo De Diego" Subject: RE: [OldTools] Now Rivets After Scott's comment, I did a search on "rivet sets" and came upon rivet sets just like the ones Michael is showing (single-ended rather than Scotts' double-ended) manufactured by a company called "Osborne" and apparently for the leather trade(?) in sizes marked 169, 170 etc. Prices at about 25$ apiece for used ones on that x~xx#x~xx marketplace. I didn't look up the price of new ones. e. ------- Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 10:30:03 -0500 From: CGRAF Subject: Re: [OldTools] Now Rivets I realize that "new" is anathema here but http://roperwhitney.com/misc/2-24-2.cfm Rivet sets url Sizing is important to not only set the rivet,but also to round it properly. Proper projection beyond the two pieces will provide just enough stock to fill (not overfill the dimple) leaving a clean rounded sphere. Mike Graf ------- Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 10:34:56 -0500 From: CGRAF Subject: Re: [OldTools] Now Rivets On 3/15/2013 8:32 PM, Kirk Eppler wrote: > Been looking for them myself too. Hardware store has no idea what > language I am speaking, just ask in different ones so the server > sees the search history You use the wrong terms. You were correct in the rivet set designation. Probably quite wrong in using hardware store. For the most part if they sell bolts and such in little prepacked bags, I abandon hope of finding tools that were used prior to 1960 or so. Mike Graf ------- Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 09:39:28 +0800 (WST) From: Peter H Subject: Re: [OldTools] Now Rivets Galoots, Search for "Tinman's" rivets and rivet sets. Cheers PeterH in Perth ------- Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 16:14:15 -0700 (PDT) From: John Odom Subject: [OldTools] Rivet Sets CS Osborne still makes and sells them. http://www.northwaysmachinery.com/productdisplay.asp?cat=296 John L. Odom Chemist/Microscopist ------- expanding telescoping brass tubing? [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: brewerpaulx~xxaol.com brewerpaul Date: Sat May 31, 2014 5:26 pm ((PDT)) This is not really an Atlas question, but hopefully someone here can help. I use my 6" Atlas to make wooden Irish penny whistles (see Busman Whistles) http://www.busmanwhistles.com This site is a member of WebRing. I use thin walled brass tubing to make the tuning slide connecting the head with the body of the whistle. One piece of 9/16" tubing is cemented into the body of the whistle, and a piece of 17/32" is cemented into the head. Usually, the fit between the two diameters of tubing is not snug enough to hold the head securely in place. I can gently flare the inner tube so that the end of it fits snugly enough but the joint can still wobble. What I need is some way to enlarge the entire 1" length of the inner tubing. We're talking about a TINY, controllable expansion. Any ideas? ------- Re: expanding telescoping brass tubing? Posted by: "Gary Bruder" bruderhausx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Sat May 31, 2014 6:23 pm ((PDT)) Make a form that is to the OD dimension you want then insert 10 grains of black powder into the form when it is inside the form. This is called "fire forming" and tends to be noisy. The question you have is a normal problem in brass cartridge forming, you can use the same methods that hand-loaders use. You will need an "expander" to insert inside the tubing and the tubing should be inside of a hard metal form. You should use some type of lubricant both inside and outside the brass tubing. ------- Re: expanding telescoping brass tubing? Posted by: "Greg Gelhar" gregx~xxgelhar.com Date: Sat May 31, 2014 7:12 pm ((PDT)) I have had success by pressing a bearing ball through the tubing. It works so well that I keep a wide assortment of bearing balls in my workshop. Greg G. Osseo, MN ------- Re: expanding telescoping brass tubing? Posted by: "Jerry Freeman" jerryx~xxtcenet.net Date: Sat May 31, 2014 7:36 pm ((PDT)) Hi, Paul. I do something like this to make the brass rings I compress onto the socket ends of the plastic whistleheads I work with so they won’t crack. If you can’t find a ball bearing exactly the needed size, this might work for your purpose. On my 10” Atlas lathe, I make a swaging tool by turning down some steel rod so there’s a bulge near one end. The outside diameter of the bulge is the inside diameter of my desired expanded tubing. On either side of the bulge, I turn the rod small enough so it will slide inside the tubing without friction. The end opposite the bulge, I turn down small enough to fit the chuck of my drill press. I finish the bulge to a shiny polish. I mount the swaging tool in the chuck of my drill press, put a longer piece of tubing than needed for my purpose under it, squirt some lubricating oil, and force the tool into the tubing. Sometimes it’s tricky to get the tubing off the swaging tool, in which case, I use a sheet of fine (maybe 600 grit) wet or day paper in my hand to hold tight, turn on the drill press, and the tubing comes free as I raise the quill of the drill press. This will leave a little unexpanded tubing at one end. You can just cut that off and use the portion that you enlarged. (I turn it around and expand it from the other end, but the result isn’t uniform, so that probably wouldn’t be suitable in your case.) Best wishes, Jerry ------- Re: expanding telescoping brass tubing? Posted by: "JOHN PERRY" perry7122x~xxbellsouth.net Date: Sat May 31, 2014 7:59 pm ((PDT)) What about filling with water and freezing to allow the expanding ice to stretch the tube? ------- Re: expanding telescoping brass tubing? Posted by: "Jim" jblake9042x~xxsuddenlink.net Date: Sat May 31, 2014 9:16 pm ((PDT)) Could you use something like this? http://www.ebay.com/itm/9-16-21-32-INCH-6-IN-ARBOR-2-3-4-IN-SLEEV\ E-EXPANDING-MANDREL-2PC-KIT-/231214470734?pt=BI_Tool_Work_Holding\ &hash=item35d574d64e Hope this helps and the links works. jimb in wv ------- Re: expanding telescoping brass tubing? Posted by: "Paul DeLisle" ferretpdx~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Jun 1, 2014 4:27 am ((PDT)) [freezing water] Good Physics, lousy results, it doesn’t expand evenly; plus you’d have to seal both ends to a level at least as strong as the brass wall. Someone already posted about using an Expanding Mandrel, I think. Paul DeLisle, CBET, CLRT, Net+, Sec+ ------- Re: expanding telescoping brass tubing? Posted by: brewerpaulx~xxaol.com brewerpaul Date: Sun Jun 1, 2014 5:08 am ((PDT)) Thanks for the ideas. The problem with pressing an object of a fixed size into the tubing is that the amount that I need to expand the tube varies from piece to piece. The tolerances of the male and female tubes do vary. I need to be able to do a TINY amount of expansion, test, repeat as necessary. The mention of expanding mandrels led me to Enco where I found an expanding lathe arbor in .500 diameter. It looks like you expand the "dum-dum" end with a hex screw. I'd need to find a long hex wrench and do my expansion before fitting the plug of the whistle (usually I do this fitting as a final step). For $6, it looks worth a gamble. Extra question for Paul-- as a Biomed equipment tech, have you found a good adhesive for Delrin? I make some whistles out of that material, which I know is also used in medical equipment. It's a notorious bear to glue. Years ago, I wrote to Dupont for advice, and their reply was "good luck". My best solution so far is to give the surfaces to be glued some "tooth" with coarse sandpaper, go for a close machined fit and glue with water thin CA glue. It's not too bad although they do let loose once in a while. ------- Re: expanding telescoping brass tubing? Posted by: "Paul DeLisle" ferretpdx~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Jun 1, 2014 5:43 am ((PDT)) Hey, Paul: I’m laughing right now because my first thought was exactly the same as Dupont’s, ”Good Luck.” Every application I’ve seen uses countersunk screws and/or edge clamps. I’ve seen some Maker and Hobby groups, that suggest that RealTek’s Bondit B-45TH works; here’s a link: http://www.reltekllc.com/bondit-b45th.html Good Luck! ------- Re: expanding telescoping brass tubing? Posted by: "Bruce ." freemab222x~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Jun 2, 2014 6:48 am ((PDT)) Before you go to that trouble, why not try texturizing the inside of the larger or the outside of the smaller tube? There are lots of ways to do this. It might suffice to lightly scratch the tube with a steel too, like a round or triangular file rotated (by hand) inside the larger tube. Scratching a soft material "plows up a furrow", effectively raising the surface. Peining against a steel mandrel can also work by locally stretching the surface, making bumps. Conceivably this could be done by placing the smaller tube on a mandrel and using a knurling tool, but I suspect that would deform the tube more than you'd like. The tiny bit of interference these techniques produce can give you the friction you need. Bruce NJ ------- Re: expanding telescoping brass tubing? Posted by: speedoo51x~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Jun 2, 2014 8:35 am ((PDT)) Look in MacMaster-Carr or any local big hobby shop. They have thin wall brass tube in various sizes with proper wall thickness to telescope with nice slip fit. ------- Re: expanding telescoping brass tubing? Posted by: brewerpaulx~xxaol.com Date: Mon Jun 2, 2014 4:04 pm ((PDT)) That's the kind of stuff I have -- K&S tubing. It's nice tubing but the fit is not always snug enough. ------- Re: expanding telescoping brass tubing? Posted by: n5feex~xxnetzero.net Date: Tue Jun 3, 2014 6:28 am ((PDT)) I have used lots of the K&S tube. The trick I use to adjust the fit is done two ways. First technique is simply cut using copper tubing roller cutting wheel. This swages the cut end, usually too much. I then use a tapered multi- flute hand reamer to tweek the fit. Second method is trim to length using any method then use same rolling wheel tubing cutter to lightly pinch a round or two on the outer tube. Pinch just enough to get the fit you want but do not cut through. A slightly dull cutter wheel works best. If you do much I would form an old cutting wheel with a small radius and polish. Dallas 618 atlas 9 inch south bend ------- Re: expanding telescoping brass tubing? Posted by: brewerpaulx~xxaol.com Date: Tue Jun 3, 2014 2:51 pm ((PDT)) The tubing cutter idea is great except that by the time I do the fitting, the brass tubing is already cemented into the wooden parts of the whistle. The female part which would be shrunk in this way is totally covered in wood. All that's left to me is to expand the 1" of the male tubing that extends from the wood. ------- Re: expanding telescoping brass tubing? Posted by: "David Hair" thehairsx~xxoptilink.us Date: Tue Jun 3, 2014 4:50 pm ((PDT)) Pre-shrink for a snug fit with a piece of the male tube before assembly. D.Hair ------- Re: expanding telescoping brass tubing? Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Tue Jun 3, 2014 3:02 pm ((PDT)) If the appearance of the outside surface wouldn't be objectionable, I think that your best bet is to find an expanding arbor that can be mounted between centers or one end in the chuck and the other supported by a live center in the tailstock and knurl the outside of the inner tube. It will take some experimentation to determine how much upset to add. But once determined, it should be repeatable. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: expanding telescoping brass tubing? Posted by: "john baird" alexandra.leavingx~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Tue Jun 3, 2014 3:16 pm ((PDT)) Hi, there is a tool used by car exhaust pipe fitters, that swage the pipes to fit one inside the other, a bit big for you, I know, but maybe a scaled down version could be made. Regards jb ------- Re: expanding telescoping brass tubing? Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com jmelson2 Date: Tue Jun 3, 2014 7:37 pm ((PDT)) > but maybe a scaled down version could be made, Yup, you take a piece of rod and mill it in half. So, you have two D-shaped pieces. Then, drill a tapered hole in it, and make a matching tapered rod. slide the two D pieces in the tubing, and then tap the tapered rod in to spread the D pieces. The only tricky part is making the tapered hole in the D pieces. Jon ------- Re: expanding telescoping brass tubing? Posted by: "Dan Buchanan" db45acpx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Jun 3, 2014 3:23 pm ((PDT)) Just an idea I have from what I think I understand by your posts. I have done this for a similar application. Chuck a piece of tubing in your lathe head stock, extended an inch or two beyond the finished length you will need. Just to hold it, it doesn't need to turn. Heat the end of the brass tube and apply lead-free silver solder to the end of the tube area where you need it to be oversized. Make the solder "flow" around the full outer circumference of the tubing by moving and directing it with your torch to a very thin coating. Let it cool and then mate it to the female piece. Hand fit it for final assembly by chucking it in the lathe again, turning it on a slow to medium speed and polishing it with Crocus cloth or an Extra Fine (Gray- Green) Cratex oblong bar bar. http://www.cratex.com/cratex-oblong-sticks/ Just touch it lightly while turning, wipe it off, then check the fit. Finish with Flitz or Simichrome paste. It should be the perfect or very close fit you are looking for. Dan ------- Re: expanding telescoping brass tubing? Posted by: "Dan Buchanan" db45acpx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Jun 3, 2014 7:49 pm ((PDT)) Another method would be to purchase steel dent removal balls much as music repair shops use. You size the steel ball to just larger than the tube you wish to expand. They are available in assorted sizes, though expensive for full sets, they can be ordered ground to size. Check here: http://www.ferreestools.com/brasswindtools/N65.JPG ------- Re: expanding telescoping brass tubing? Posted by: "Curt Wuollet" wideopen1x~xxcharter.net Date: Tue Jun 3, 2014 9:04 pm ((PDT)) Here's what a guy with a lathe should do :^). Get some rod that's a little too big. Turn a set of rods with a button on the end, say 5. Relieve the rest of the rod. Make each button .001" smaller than the last. Or .0005" if you are patient. Start with the first interference fit and work up till the fit is right. With lube and soft tubing it shouldn't take much force. This way you can handle the range of fits going in. And it's a lot easier sizing a button than the whole rod. Regards cww ------- Re: expanding telescoping brass tubing? Posted by: zoyagenax~xxyahoo.com gennady_123 Date: Tue Jun 3, 2014 9:19 pm ((PDT)) Curt, Do you think that your approach can be simplified by turning a set of buttons that can be attached to the rod by friction fit or by threading? This way if you are not fortunate with proper size, you just make another button, not the whole rod (you will need one under size rod only). Best regards, Gennady ------- Re: expanding telescoping brass tubing? Posted by: "Curt Wuollet" wideopen1x~xxcharter.net Date: Tue Jun 3, 2014 9:27 pm ((PDT)) Yes. But on a lathe it's a lot easier to turn a button with a rod attached to it:^). Regards cww ------- new article: Bending Angles Greater than 90° [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Rick - yahoo" rgsparber.yax~xxgmail.com rgsparber Date: Wed Jan 7, 2015 4:55 am ((PST)) The last time I visited Bill VanOrden's (Beevo's) shop I was shown a simple way to bend strap at angles greater than 90°. Beevo was gracious enough to let me write it up. This technique uses standard drills to set the depth of bend. I added the math. If you are interested, please see http://rick.sparber.org/BAG90.pdf Your comments are welcome. All of us are smarter than any one of us. If you wish to receive future article announcements automatically, please send me an email with "Article Alias" in the subject line. Thanks, Rick http://rick.sparber.org/ You Tube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/rgsparber1 ------- Re: [atlas_craftsman] new article: Bending Angles Greater than 90 Posted by: "Bruce ." freemab222x~xxgmail.com bakmthiscl Date: Thu Jan 8, 2015 9:07 am ((PST)) Rick, Interesting, but I don't think you've taken "spring-back" into account. Unless the metal is red hot, 90* dies won't result in 90* bend. I'm speaking from experience here, having just used a press and 90* dies to bend metal to 98*. (It took finagling -- your chart might have helped. I ended up doing it red hot, then coming up with a better alternative entirely.) Your chart makes for a good first choice in bit size, but how close to the target angle do you get using it? I suspect that that will depend upon the hardness of the metal being bent as well as its thickness. Bruce NJ ------- RE: [atlas_craftsman] new article: Bending Angles Greater than 90 Posted by: "Rick - yahoo" rgsparber.yax~xxgmail.com rgsparber Date: Thu Jan 8, 2015 9:21 am ((PST)) Bruce, I do not explicitly deal with spring-back but note that the calibration phase is a first order attempt. If you calibrate for each type of metal and thickness used and do not stray too far from the calibration point, I expect reasonable results. I’m waiting for those in the community to give it a try and supply real world experience. Rick Born and Raised in NJ ;-) ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following conversation on making springs came out of a discussion of rust removal at the Oldtools group, where sometimes springs broke and needed replacement. Here are some tips on making them. (You can see the rest of the discussion in the file Rust Removal here.) ------- Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 00:19:55 -0400 From: Claudio DeLorenzi Subject: [OldTools] Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy Making springs - For coil springs - these are easy to make- at least the small ones; use high carbon music wire of the appropriate gauge. Mount a piece of drill rod of the appropriate diameter for your spring on a lathe- (but unplug the lathe). Use a piece of hardwood with a tiny hole in it, pass the wire through it, and then clamp the wire to the drill rod on your lathe or better a small hole in the drill rod and clamp your hardwood block to the tool post. For heavy springs you need to use a metal follower. Manually turn your lathe with a hand crank for the appropriate number of turns plus a few - you can easily shorten, hard to lengthen a spring. Clamp the other end. Heat to cherry red and soak in good heat, then quickly quench the whole thing in oil, pull it out and then quickly polish it up so you can see the temper colors as the heat remaining in the drill rod radiates to the wire...then gently reheat it until it turns purple-blue temper color. Apparently guys who knew what they were doing used to do this with a metal lathe running really slow... I've made only a few springs so I'm not an expert. Heavy gauge spring making is much more difficult and a bit dangerous because you have to do it under power and is a whole different experience...but little thin ones are not too difficult. Keep it wound on the drill rod when heating otherwise it cools too fast when trying to quench and then temper. Easier to time it all when working with more mass. That's all I can remember about it. I found this technique in one of the little machine shop series of books from Britain, but I couldn't find it just now. Claudio ------- Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 11:32:09 -0700 From: Kirk Eppler Subject: Re: [OldTools] Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy On Tue, Jun 30, 2015, Don Schwartz wrote: >Making a spring has worked satisfactorily for me. It would be helpful for >you to know the wire gauge and length of the spring. Perhaps someone can >post a photo and provide measurements for that model brace http://www.bob-easton.com/blog/2009/963/ Bob has a thing on winding your own springs here. Seems like George's Basement had something on stealing them from Ball Point pens, but I can't find that link anymore. Kirk Eppler in HMB, who got another baby step done in garage cleanup last night. 997 more to go. ------- Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 23:46:16 +0000 (UTC) From: Erik Levin Subject: Re: [OldTools] Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy Making a spring is easy, and finding a commercially made spring to fit is often not a big deal. Spring wire (music wire) is available at pretty much any hobby store, as well as on line, and smaller gauges are available at music stores. Note that many modern guitar strings are not suitable for use as spring material. Piano string pretty much is (AFAIK). Easy to wind, even by hand, over a mandrel. For compression springs, try a mandrel about 10 to 15% smaller than the nominal ID of the spring, and spacing can be done using another piece of wire (same or larger size, as needed). Before I had a lathe, I wound a lot of springs using nothing but a rod, some wood to grip with, and a vise. Not a metallurgist, but experience and training tell me that springs fail, often without warning, due to flaws that are not visible even under a microscope. I have seen, in large springs, flaws using mag particle and dye penetrant testing, that lead to failure not long after the tests (sometimes people don't listen when told that failure is immanent). Small springs can't really even be tested using these techniques, and a small flaw from rust or wear or impact or..... They fail. If the cleaning using reasonable technique causes a failure to a spring, to a saw plate, to anything, it was likely going to fail anyway. Of course, reasonable technique is key, as noted: > I was cleaning a saw set and left it in the vinegar overnight. The frame of the set was nicely cleaned along with the adjustment screw, but when I went to put the thumb nut back on the screw it rattled. < I have never had this issue (I swear. Really. No, I mean it. Am I convincing you???) but if you do, you learn quickly. To the spring, if there is a crack starting, or a deep pit under the rust, or a spot where the rust is just right, the acid clean will lead to a crack. Abrasive cleaning MIGHT not, as it will take the stress riser out by removing the material around it, rather than accentuating it by cutting into it. (A major issue when I wear my boiler inspection and repair hat.) ------- Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 18:28:55 -0700 From: Frank O'Donnell Subject: Re: [OldTools] Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy > Making a spring is easy, and finding a commercially made spring to > fit is often not a big deal. At one point I contemplated getting into spring-making, until I discovered this company a 15-minute drive from our home in the Los Angeles area: http://www.centuryspring.com/ It's great fun looking through their showroom, and they are generous with samples. They also have a nice catalog. Frank O'Donnell South Pasadena, CA ------- Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 21:36:13 -0500 From: mikerock Subject: Re: [OldTools] Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy Frank, I used them for springs for my Pratt & Whitney rifling machines. Darned helpful and knowledgeable. Fun to work with too as he is into guns big time. Mike ------- Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 20:12:28 -0700 From: scott grandstaff Subject: Re: [OldTools] Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy George Langford wound made some springs for eggbeater chucks. He had always wanted to. He made a jig and wound them up. To make small springs you don't have to mess with the temper of the spring wire. Just get the right size wire (Mcmaster sells foot long straight sticks of spring wire, in tubes. Lots and lots of them in a tube! They aren't too expensive.) And make a simple jig, whatever you need. Wind them a lot tighter than you need (spring back). It's just a matter of experimentation. I have made a lot of one off springs in my life. If I can do it.......... yours Scott Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 scottgx~xxsnowcrest.net http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html ------- Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 21:06:05 -0700 From: "Adam R. Maxwell" Subject: Re: [OldTools] Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy > Bob has a thing on winding your own springs here. Seems like George's > Basement had something on stealing them from Ball Point pens, but I > can't find that link anymore. Pretty sure I got it from a post by Ed Balko in this thread: http://swingleydev.com/archive/get.php?message_id=70703&submit_thread=1 There's a bunch of stuff in the archives about music wire vs. piano wire vs. arn wire that I don't pretend to understand; my local hardware store has some stuff labeled "music wire" that I've used for brace springs, though. Worth a check if you don't want to do the McMaster order like Scott mentioned! > Kirk Eppler in HMB, who got another baby step done in garage cleanup > last night. 997 more to go. This is what I do between projects. It gives the illusion of progress without the pressure of a deadline. Adam ------- Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2015 14:45:01 +0000 From: georgex~xxgeorgesbasement.com Subject: Re: [OldTools] Hydrogen embrittlement and making new springs for old tools Gary Katsanis wrote: > I have a heavily rusted piece of what was high-strength steel in the > 1800's. I want to restore the mechanism to functioning condition. > Penalty for failure is severe and messy. > Would electrolysis be an unacceptable method of dealing with the > rust? I've heard of hydrogen embrittlement, but I don't know if it > is a serious issue. The metallurgist replies: Hydrogen embrittlement occurs when an acid (or electrolysis) liberates hydrogen atoms at the surface of the steel, whereupon they are driven into the metal by chemical forces. Any stressed areas of the steel promote the recombination of the dissolved hydrogen atoms to generate hydrogen gas, which pries apart the grain boundaries in the steel so that the resulting fracture surfaces have a "rock candy" appearance. Experienced non-metallurgists say that their steel whatsis broke because it "crystallized." Saws curled up for electrolysis in a bucket will demonstrate this very nicely, if you don't mind the noise. The critical hardness is 300 Brinell. Saws, chisels, plane blades, springs and the like fall in the susceptible category. Don't try electrolysis or acid treatments on those unless you know that they have been stress relieved (e.g., tempered) beforehand. I don't remove rust from such gadgets with either method, as I think that even when they don't break, they look awful afterwards. Weldable steels are OK, as welding often causes hydrogen to enter them, and they don't crack afterwards, unless the steel was air-arc gouged beforehand with a carbon electrode, which carburizes the prepared surfaces, so some parts of the subsequent weld get too hard. How do I remove rust ? With a dull chisel or scraper and a lot of elbow grease. The red rust is what gets removed, leaving the black rust behind, which is much harder. That also leaves a passably smooth surface which is sufficiently porous to hold some protective oil. The scraper (made from an old triangular file) is less likely to dig in, because you're pushing it with your fingers, not with your entire upper body. Still, it's gotta be dull or it will scratch the steel. It also has to be quite hard ... like a file. If you're really determined to use acid, the method I have used in my consulting work combines dilute hydrochloric acid (ten percent, what they sell for etching concrete at the hardware store) with about four grams of hexamethylenetetramine (a.k.a. hexamine) per liter. The hexamine inhibits attack of the steel by the acid. Rinse and dry thoroughly afterwards. All of the rust, even the black stuff, is removed in a few hours at room temperature. You can get hexamine as those heating tablets that one uses on camping trips. The spent acid can be neutralized after use by adding crushed limestone (agricultural lime) until it no longer sizzles. On the topic of spring-making: Chuck springs have two problems: Too loose a fit, and they buckle and get squashed between the jaws when the chuck is tightened; too tight, and they hang up on the corners of the hole with the same result. Solution: Wind your own springs. Hjorth invented a very nice spring- winding tool which can be found every so often. There are two sizes, one which is about the size of a small pipe wrench and no good for chuck springs, the other is about three inches long, which is perfect. I learned a long time ago that the ideal spring for this purpose crams the most and largest wire that will fit into the holes of the chuck jaws when the chuck is fully closed. That produces a pretty stiff chuck spring, but it's less vulnerable than a fashion-model spring. Also long ago, I cornered the market on spring wire, as I went to MSCDirect.com and cleaned 'em out of all the available sizes. Then I got a couple of sets of wire-gauge drill blanks. That leaves georgesbasement.com as the go-to place for replacement chuck springs. They aren't intended to fool the judges at the oldtools _concours d'elegance_, but your chuck will work a lot better afterwards. This will entail your sending me all three jaws so I can hand fit the new springs. Cost is five bucks plus postage ... galoot terms. See my methodology here: ..../mfno2typestudy/MakingChuckSprings/MakingChuckSprings.htm I can also make oddball springs with a pair of needlenose pliers, but so can you, if you have an old spring to use as a pattern. George Langford, trying to consolidate thirty years of metallurgy reports in SE PA. http://www.georgesbasement.com/ ------- Re: 2c. Metal spinning [atlas618lathe] Posted by: "John Bump" johnbumpx~xxgmail.com smellsofbikes Date: Sun Dec 6, 2015 5:33 pm ((PST)) > I don't think the subject of spinning comes up much at all in these various machining forums and lists. It seems as if you might have done some of it. Regardless of what lathe you might have used, could you tell us a little about the process and if you have any links you might be able to share? I'd like to make some aluminum hemispheres (to fit together to make a sphere) varying in diameter from two inches to as big as could be handled on a 618. < I found rather less than I had expected when I first started looking at getting into metalspinning, and at the time all I had was a woodlathe. I'm using 3003, which is similar in ductility to 1100. There are a wide variety of tools used to form the sheet. My first attempt was tig-welding a 3/4" ball bearing onto the end of a 3' steel rod. That did work, with polishing and subsequent continuous lubrication using wax. Then I started finding youtube videos and ended up building a compound- arm style tool with a cut-down rollerblade wheel to form the aluminum. https://i.ytimg.com/vi/RB1RwNUj2o8/hqdefault.jpg gives you some idea of what this looks like. You position the wheel with the straight arm, and use the hockey stick arm to exert crazy amounts of axial pressure. That also shows the toolrest. I made something similar that clamped in the woodlathe toolrest banjo, and then redid it slightly to bolt into the 618 compound slide. Given how much adjustability it has, I think I may have done better to just bolt it straight to the flat ways and use the pegs to traverse the fulcrum for the scissors tool. My biggest challenge by far has been holding the material. Real metalspinning lathes have very stiff beds, and a bearing center in the tailstock with several inches of movement, that can be jammed against the headstock so hard that it can hold a sheet of metal in there against tremendous force. (Huge gigantic safety hazard when you first start it up: flat sheet spinning fast held only by friction, and if it's off-center it's coming out like a circular saw.) So I've had most of my success in pieces that were, like a velocity stack, going to have the end cut out anyway. I'd make a wooden or aluminum form, screw the sheet in several places to the form, use a machined cup on the live center to press against the workpiece, and start in forming it. Maybe using pitch, or spray adhesive, or something, I'm not sure, would help this work better with pieces where having a continuous unbroken surface is essential, like turning halves of van de graaf/tesla coil globes. I tried pressure and double-stick tape. No good. Lindsay Books has a reprint of an old metalspinning book. http://www.youroldtimebookstore.com/product-p/4830.htm That did more for me than any other source. That was pre-youtube. There are a bunch of tricky bits, like how to get it started, how to progress without the outer edge going all ripply and developing folds. You end up making something like a woodturning skew chisel and cutting off the aluminum while you progress, to keep the outer edge true. (I did this with a carbide bit on the compound if possible.) People who are good at it can turn a flat piece of metal into something amazing in a few minutes. I can turn a flat piece of metal into a crumpled disaster in a few minutes, but sometimes it works and when it does it's awesome. ------- [sherline] Photo IMG_0005{1} / Technique Posted by: chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net glicker31 Date: Thu Jan 21, 2016 3:45 pm ((PST)) https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/sherline/photos/photo stream/lightbox/1960804299 Photo shows my way of creating a template and "Filing to a Line". (A little mis-leading,I must admit.) Tracing paper was used to copy the profile of the missing ship model part. Tracing paper image was rubber cemented to a piece of card stock. That is the template. After rough sawing, curvatures were disc sanded to shape. Solid and move able jaws were covered with mylar tape. Straight edges of template are then aligned with the solid jaw. (One at a time) A file is drawn across the excess material (to remove it) to create the straight line(s). When the cement of the mylar tape is reached, that is a signal to stop filing. Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Re: Photo IMG_0005{1} / Technique Posted by: "Ian Newman" ian_newx~xxyahoo.com ian_new Date: Sat Jan 23, 2016 1:24 pm ((PST)) Hi, As Jerry has introduced the topic of filing, here is a trick to help you file metal to a scribed line - the process is as "old as the hills", but may be unfamiliar to some members. Having scribed the line that you wish to file up to, place a series of small punch marks along the line (you can use a centre punch for this, but a "prick punch" ground to a 60 deg inclusive angle is the weapon of choice). The punch marks, called "witness marks" or "witness dots" in the UK, should be small - about 1/4mm (10 thou) deep is ample. Now when you are filing to the line, watch the surface being filed - as you approach the line the filed surface starts to break in to the witness dots which become visible as a series of small vees in the edge of the surface being filed. The dots in the area that you are filing most aggressively become visible first, indicating that you should ease up in those areas and pay more attention to the part where the dots are yet to appear. As I have mentioned before, I teach engineering apprentices. We teach this method to help them master the art of filing - as part of their "hand fitting" training they have to file square and flat to within 0.05mm (2 thou). All the best, Ian ------- The Simple Way to File to a Line [sherline] Posted by: chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net glicker31 Date: Sun Jan 24, 2016 10:58 am ((PST)) We need four items. 1. Work Piece. 2. Straightedge 3. Scriber 4. File. Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- ------------------------------------------------------------------ This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------