------------------------------------------------------------------ This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------ Many Taig mill users' tips to solve problems and hopefully work more efficiently. Besides the messages here, Taig mill users will want to read the Taig lathe files as there is a fair bit of commonality of parts and tools and adjustments and machining practice for the lathe that apply to the mill. For cross-use of Sherline accessories on Taig (and vice versa), be sure to read the Sherline to/from Taig Adapters file as simple modifications may be necessary. Although both brands have 3/4 inch 16TPI threaded spindles, there are differences that usually must be adjusted for. Furthermore, Taig mill users will greatly benefit from reading the Sherline files, as that machine has similar size limitations and some ingenious users who have ideas that could easily be adapted for the Taig mill. For those thinking of going to CNC, the CNC General file includes much information that is applicable. Then there are the general milling files. If you got to this file directly from my HOME PAGE, return there by using your browser's back button. BUT if you came to this file as the result of a web search engine, see many additional files on my home page Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html SAFETY WARNING BEWARE: DO NOT ASSUME that any subject matter or procedure or process is safe or correct or appropriate just because it was mentioned in a news/user group or was included in these files or on this site or on any other web site or was published in a magazine or book or video. 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In every case, use your common sense before beginning or taking the next step; and do not proceed if you have any questions or doubts about any procedure, or the safety of any procedure. Follow all laws and codes, and employ certified or licenced professionals as required by those laws or codes. Hazardous tasks beyond your competence or expertise should also be contracted to professionals. Let's be really careful out there. (c) Copyright 2003 - 2015 Machining and Metalworking at Home The form of the collected work in this text file (including editing, additions, and notes) is copyrighted and this file is not to be reproduced by any means, including electronic, without written permission except for strictly personal use. =========================================================================== Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 14:58:49 -0600 (CST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Mill Manual Since I'm in the process of gutting my shop for a complete re-build, I moved my mill inside and started taking pictures for the mill manual I promised long, long ago. I've gone through adjusting all the gibs and tramming up the column and head. As soon as I crank out the text for these sections, I'll put the whole mess up on the web for editorial comments and corrections. In the process, I found out my column was out of line by about 4 thou over 4 inches. Thinking, "Aha! Now's as good a time as any to square things up!" I started going through the entire process. At one point I had the column a little too loose, and I tapped it a little too hard. It keeled over to about a 45 degree angle. DOH! So the section on tramming up the column is very... current, with lots of recent examples. ;) Since I'm getting off my zud, I went ahead and cranked out two new PDFs for the speeds and feeds, one for a mill with the stock Taig pulleys, and one for a mill with a variable speed motor and tach. They're in Files -> Speeds & Feeds. Tom ------- Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 16:05:06 -0000 From: "Jim Lewis" Subject: Mill cutting chart Hi All: If you own a Taig micro mill you should find this table useful. It shows feeds and speeds based on real-world experience for several materials, cut depths, cut diameters, etc. The table is here: http://www.emachineshop.com Regards, Jim Lewis ------- Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 09:06:55 -0400 From: Larry Richter Subject: Re: Backlash Assembly for the Taig stonecutter78412 wrote: > How expensive are anti-backlash components? Can you swap out the 3 > axis threads with anti-backlash components? I have issues. heh. > Vince in Corpus Christi I'm out of date as to the nature of anti-backlash nuts. They were once reasonable in small sizes. Most I've seen or shopped took the form of two more or less standard nuts in one housing, one fixed, one movable, with the distance between the two nuts being variable. Some were more like shims for threads -- they were manually adjusted, and if the variation from spec in the threaded rod they served was a uniform variance, good enough on shake removal. Some had a spring element between the two nuts, and were backlash proof only up to a given load, at which point the spring failed to produce backlash removal. I expect there are plenty of other and better ways. It's possible to make them. ------- Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 12:31:26 +0900 From: "Mark Thomas" Subject: RE: Question about Taig collets >I am wondering if the collets that come with the Taig mill are of a common or proprietary design? I have noticed that there is a very slight wobble in the 1/8" collet and I would like to get a more accurately made set. thanks, Tom Murray < Tom, the design is proprietary, i.e. not a standard morse taper, 15 degrees if I'm not mistaken. I'm surprised that you're getting a wobble however as the collets do center very well. Check that the collet closer is threading itself on properly, and make sure that the collet is inserted the proper way, taper end first., I'm not being facetious here as I've reversed a collet by mistake on occasion, and inevitably the bit will not center properly as a result. Cheers, Mark ------- Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 02:17:08 -0600 From: "Don Feinberg" Subject: Re: Question about Taig collets I did get one "bad" collet from Taig; they replaced it immediately on my request, and all was well afterwards. It was supposed to be 1/8", but somehow it was a couple of thou too small... Ring up Taig -- my experience is that they'll take care of it straight away. - Don Feinberg ------- Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 12:59:24 -0000 From: "Tom Murray " Subject: Re: Question about Taig collets Thanks to everyone for the information. Yes, the collet is inserted the correct way; I take no offence in being asked because the first time I put one in, I did indeed insert it backwards =] I noticed that the collet holds the cutter slightly off center. I estimate that it is about 1-2 thousandths off, but I have no way to measure. I will be using v-cutters that have very fine tips (0.001" - 0.01") to do very fine detail, so a movement of the tool by a thousandths or two is not trivial. I will contact Taig soon. Thanks again, Tom Murray ------- Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 09:46:58 -0800 From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Subject: Re: Re: Question about Taig collets Several other things to check: 1) get a dial test indicator, chuck up a 1/8" dowel and see if the collet is really running true. You need a dial indicator, for tramming the column anyway. 2) is it possible that the cutter is bent? or have you checked several cutters in succession? 3) is there any swarf, or other obstructions in the collet slots? 4) do your other collets work well? (once again good place for an indicator) could be the spindle taper instead, perhaps a burr. 5) as others have said, Taig will take care of it if it is bad. http://www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 13:47:18 -1000 (HST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: Setting up my new mill? [TAIG] On Mon, 17 Mar 2003, mmurray70 wrote: > Anybody have any tips or advice on things I should check out on my > new mill? Backlash/other adjustments... Tons. I started writing a setup guide for the CNC mill, but I had to put the project aside. I'm planning on getting back into it in the not so distant future when I set my own mill back up. Hoping to take lots of pictures and lots of notes. I'll make it short: Assume NOTHING. Bolts do loosen during shipping, and things that should be aligned might not be. If a part moves, assume it's not lined up in relation to any other part, and work from there. For the record the bolts holding my headstock on had worked loose in shipping, and I chipped an endmill before I figured out what was going on. > I was also wondering what max speed and acceleration I should be using > as a starting point with the Taig mill. I have the 2019 CNC ready mill > with Powermax II (200oz+) steppers and the Xylotex drive. I can do 20ipm pretty easily with moderate acceleration. It's a start, at any rate. Find out where your mill starts losing steps, and reduce from there. > The Y axis seems to have more backlash then then the X and Z, can > someone give some details on adjusting this? Its probably simple, I just > dont want to break anything so i'll ask first. Mmm, I've never had to so I honestly can't say. Mine has about 1.5 thou in X and Y, so I never bothered tuning it mechanically. > Please help me out with these questions, and feel free to post anything > you fell would be helpful to a newbie. Thanks. Best of luck. Be sure to post any questions you might have during setup. Lots of helpful people here. Tom ------- Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 15:32:54 -1000 (HST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: Setting up my new mill? I've put the mill alignment stuff up on the web temporarily. I've only written two sections, and both of them need to be expanded a great deal. If anyone needs to assemble or align their Taig mill, feel free to have a look-see. Just be patient with me. I haven't looked at this stuff in almost a year, and there are lots and lots of parenthetical statements to myself and placeholders for pictures. All of the pictures are thumbnails (more like camel's thumbnails). Clicking on them will bring up larger pictures. That being said, I'm going to go back through this when I set up my mill, and will take the time to take better pictures with better lighting. Aside from statements to the effect of, "DANG that's incomplete!" I'd appreciate any and all feedback. If there are areas where my verbage gets confusing, let me know. If there are particular angles you want to see, let me know. And above all else if my mechanics are wrong, please please let me know. (I'd hate to steer people wrong.) Here are the two URLS for the existing sections: http://www.cfht.hawaii.edu/~benedict/mill/gibs.html http://www.cfht.hawaii.edu/~benedict/mill/tramming.html Tom ------- Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 14:38:08 -1000 (HST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: Hand cranks on CNC mill On Wed, 9 Apr 2003, mattbstrong wrote: > I can't tell from the picture, but are the hand cranks removed from the > Taig CNC mill to make room for the stepper motors? In other words, if I > buy a CNC mill will I be able to use it as a hand controlled mill or > only as a CNC mill? In their stock configuration you're right: the handwheels are removed. This has been a subject of some discussion of late. You CAN put handwheels on the outboard end of your motor shafts, but there are some concerns to be aware of: 1 - Any handwheel will add some sort of a flywheel effect. You'll need to re-tune your motors after adding handwheels. 2 - If the handwheels aren't balanced, that can cause vibration, especially during rapid traverse. 3 - If you do use your mill manually, be sure to turn off your mill controller. At one point I was concerned the back-EMF from the motors could fry the driving electronics. One of the driver board manufacturers said it'd be pretty tough to do using only hand power. Still, it can't hurt to protect your electronics. > Also, how is the backlash on these mills and how long do they last? Mine's still about 0.001 on X and 0.0015 on Y. Z is essentially dead on since the weight of the spindle tends to force the leadscrew nut up against the leadscrew. Mine has been running since roughly July of 2000. No appreciable increase in backlash, and the gibs are still nice. I haven't been using it in any sort of continuous duty mode, but I've also taken on some fairly heavy cutting jobs with it. > Is the mill going to have to be replaced in a few years? Oh boy I hope not! I'm quite attached to mine. I'm hoping with care and feeding it'll last long enough for me to keel over and foist it off on someone else. > How many drive belts does a person go through using one of these mills? > Can any give me a hours per belt estimate? Are the belts expensive > and/or difficult to come by? They're pretty easy to come by. I got a spare belt for my lathe when I got it in early 2000. The mill uses the same size belt as the one I use on my lathe. I think it cost something like $10 or so, and was available from Taig. I've seen them elsewhere for about that same price. Not that I think Taig will go out of business any time soon (from what I hear they're still pretty swamped), but I'm guessing I could get another one pretty easily. So far I have yet to use that spare belt, and I have used my lathe a LOT. For a while it was seeing upwards of six hours of use a day. I guess that went on for the better part of a year. That belt's still in almost pristine shape. No cracks, no appreciable wear. If you ever do wind up with a mill that's got a broken belt that can't be replaced, all's not lost. Find a new style belt of about the same length, and make a new set of step pulleys. A number of people have replaced their pulleys with timing belt pulleys so they can use variable DC motors on the spindle. From what I've heard it works like a charm. > What CAM packages are people using that are capable of doing four axis > milling? Gooooood question!! Man, that one plagued me for a long time. When I got my mill it came with Supercam, which only did 2D+1 milling, and the MaxNC software, which would run 4-axis G-code, but wouldn't generate it. I searched high, I searched low, and I downloaded a lot of demos for software I'll never be able to afford (which is a real shame, because I got attached to a few of them.) The one I finally wound up with is Vector. I got it from Fred Smith at IM Service. http://www.imsrv.com So far I like it a lot. The rotary axis cost extra, but it has been worth it. (More on this in a sec.) Again, Vector is by no means the only option. A number of other packages have come up since I did my searching, and they're well worth looking into. A couple of them are also sold on the IM Service site. BobCAD is another I've heard of, but never tried. Back to that fourth axis stuff, and CAM in general: It's not 100% essential that you have CAM software. It's also not 100% essential that you have full-blown four-axis G-code generation, depending on what you're doing. Here's a good example: At one point I was planning on making a turbine impeller. (Heck, I'm still interested in making the thing, but other projects kinda got in the way.) This is one of the reasons I got Vector with the fourth axis. Turns out for that application I probably didn't have to. You can still make the impeller by machining out a blade, making a rotary axis command, machining out the next blade, making a rotary axis command, etc. You don't need 4-axis CAM software to do that. You just need a text editor. Here's what it would look like: G0 X0 Y0 Z0 G1 ... (This is where it's cutting out a turbine blade using 2D+1 machining) G0 A10 G1 ... (Repeat from the previous block) G0 A20 G1 ... (Repeat from the previous block) In each instance, you're stepping the rotary axis by 10 degrees before cutting the next blade. And if you're not making something like an airfoil, you can hand-code a LOT of G-code. When CNC machining was invented, it was assumed you'd be coding it by hand. So the G-code commands were written in such a way that they are more or less human-readable (and writable!) All that being said... I like my mill a whole lot. Provided I'm working within its envelope of size, materials, cutting speeds and feeds, etc., it's a highly reliable machine that has never ceased to put out good work. I also like Vector a lot. (I think I'll like it even more once I shell out the money for the solid modeling part, but for now I don't honestly need it.) I'm not 100% hooked on EMC. Its handling of the rotary axis left a lot to be desired the last time I dinked with it. Still, it provides a lot more functionality than Supercam did, and the price was right (free). Mind my asking what you're planning on making with your mill? It'd help when answering your questions. Tom ------- Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 22:35:53 -0400 From: "Carol & Jerry Jankura" Subject: RE: 4 axis mills > > Does Taig make their own fourth axis attachment or do I need to buy from > > third party? > They use a Sherline rotary table for their fourth axis, but it's available > directly from Taig or from one of their dealers. I bought mine with my > mill through Nick Carter. Sherline has a monthly special on their Internet site. Since I purchased my Sherline equipment, I've seen the both rotary tables (there's a manual table and a CNC table) offered twice. The internet special carries a discount of 20% off list price. > When you're shopping for a mill, don't get too attached to the software > offered with any of them. As with anything else computer related, > software can be swapped out for something that's more suited for what you > intend to do with the mill. Get a mill that's mechanically sound, and you > can find software to drive it. One piece of advice that I can offer here - Buy a motor driver that uses step and direction rather than phase inputs. If the 'factory built' CNC mill you finally decide upon uses a phase input driver, (I believe this is true of the Taig mill), you'd be better off purchasing a machine without the hardware controllers and adding your own. While there are several different GCode interpreters available to drive a lathe or mill, the majority of these controllers generate step/direction signals. As far as robustness (will you have to replace it in a year??), a lot depends on how you use the machine. In general, the machines are designed so that a few low cost parts wear out through usage. Replace these parts, and you're back to factory specificiations. For example, look for a brass nut driven by the leadscrew. The nut will eventually fail (One fellow on the Sherline list reported that he had to change the saddle nuts on his machine). Replace it and you're back in business. -- Jerry ------- Date: 09 Apr 2003 13:11:34 +0900 From: Mark Thomas Subject: Re: Hand cranks on CNC mill The CNC mill comes with radio knobs installed instead of hand cranks. These can be used for small movements but are not good if you want to actually want to do hand machining. Fortunately the shafts are standard 1/4 inch so there are any number of replacement handles available, or you can easily make your own. I usually run the mill without hand cranks at all while under CNC control. On the rare occasions that I actually want to use the mill manually I attach oversize ones to facilitate the operation. I don't disconnect the steppers during manual operations, just make sure the driver is powered down, however this may depend on the type of driver you have as to if it can dissipate the generated back EMF. > Also, how is the backlash on these mills and how long do they last? > Is the mill going to have to be replaced in a few years? The backlash is easily adjusted on the Y and X axis and you should be able to keep it to less than .002", the saddle nuts may eventually wear, but these are inexpensive and easy to replace. That said, the wear will be in relation to the amount of usage, however there are a number of people on this list who use these mills in at least a semi-production environment and there has not been many reports of the necessity to replace the nuts at any high frequency. All the parts on the mill that are subject to wear are replaceable, in some cases with factory parts or in other cases such as bearings can be off the shelf from a myriad of suppliers. Obviously proper maintenance will greatly increase the life of all parts. For its size the Taig mill is quite an accurate and rugged little beast. I'm still on the original belt on my lathe after three years of moderate to heavy use. I'm on the second belt on the mill, but the first belts' life was shortened by pulley miss-alignment (my bad) the second one is showing no signs of deterioration after a year. When the first belt went I ordered three spares from Taig, so I doubt I will need any new ones for a few years. > What CAM packages are people using that are capable of doing four > axis milling? A lot of this depends on what kind of work you will be producing. I find that the majority of my work utilising the 4th axis is actually just standard 3 axis milling with a 4th axis shift following each set of procedures. I run Turbocnc with either hand generated code or on more complex operations generate g-code from .DXF files, which I then hand edit to insert 4th axis moves as necessary. Mark Thomas http://home.inter.net/mthomas ------- Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 15:08:22 -0000 From: "eferg2001" Subject: Re: 4th axis In taigtoolsx~xxyahoogroups.com, "j421661" wrote: > I have my mill running using Mach1, Xylotex board and 350oz. motors > in three axis. My question is what kind of device is most commonly > used for the fourth axis? Jim I purchased a Sherline CNC ready rotary table for my 4th axis. I just needed to drill new mounting holes in the base plate to align with the Taig table slots. I'm using a 210 oz stepper with the rotary table. Regards, Ed Ferguson ------- Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 15:25:40 -0000 From: "stevenson_engineers" Subject: Re: 4th axis Jim, look in the photos section of this group, look under Taig mill and the last shot shows a poor man's 4th axis. Built out of a 40:1 reduction gearbox and a 200 oz stepper. ------- Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 22:14:15 -0700 From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Subject: Re: X Axis adjustments The newer mills have a different x axis gib than the older mills. On the newer mills the gib is tapered and is adjusted by tightening and loosening screws on the left and right ends of the gib. There is now only one screw in the front that is used for locking the table. http://www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 10:17:07 +0100 From: Steve Blackmore Subject: Re: New mill owner - questions On Wed, 30 Apr 2003 08:41:24 -0000, you wrote: >Couple of newbie questions, particular to this mill: >* For Chinese made mini-lathes, etc, it's customary to clean all the >grease and oil and sludge off the machine, and re-oil it. What do >people use for degreasing, and what do you guys use for way oil? >(heck, where do you get way oil aside from liberating from bigger >machine shops?) I just cleaned mine with paper towels soaked in WD40. I was using a moly type dri slide lubricant till I ran out and am now on Esso Nuto H32 - it's an hydraulic oil that doesn't emulsify in water - important if you use coolant. >* Upon disassembly of the mill for measurements, etc - I don't see >any anti-backlash nuts on the axis. Can someone confirm this? How >is the amount of backlash adjusted on this mill? (On the Sherline, >there's a nut that you tension up). There are no anti-backlash nuts as such, the spilt nut design keeps them tight. End play is taken up by carefully adjusting the nylock nuts on the shaft ends - DON'T over tighten, just enough to remove play. >* How is the Y-axis gibs adjusted for wear? With tapered gibs, you >slide them in until they are snug then tighten them down, and the >gibs stay parallel to the ways. How can I make sure that when I >adjust the gibs ont he Y the gibs stay parallel to the ways instead >of toeing in? Nip both ends up tight then back off the same amount. >* I noticed that even brand new, some parts of the x-axis travel is >a bit tight. Does it need to be broken in, or do I have problems? Soon wear off. Unless they've changed things - here's a note from my Taig webpage "I had a problem with the X axis gib screws. The design is flawed in my opinion, it relies purely on grub screws staying put, with no locking device. The motor side one was slack from new, and on a recent job decided to come loose. This has a really nasty side effect, it allows the carriage to move freely to the right and jam to the left!! The cure is simple, throw away the grub screws and replace with longer bolts and a locking nut as per the Y axis. 10-32 bolts are not easy to come by in the UK, so I re-tapped 5mm and used those." I now believe that you are supposed to put locking screws in on top of the grub screws - again a bad idea, the grub screws move when you "lock" them :( >* I'm assuming that the tension of the stepper motor frame against >the mounts hold the motor mount flange position against the extension tube? Yes. Hope this helps! Steve Blackmore ------- Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 20:19:57 -0000 From: "sikn1gh7" Subject: Re: New mill owner - questions <> They are using a tapered gib on the X-Axis, but not on the Y or Z axis. Terence ------- Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 00:15:04 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: Sherline End Mill Holder wrote: > I purchased a 3/8" Sherline end mill holder. I was hoping I could > use this on my Taig mill. When I screw it onto my spindle to a snug > fit there is a lot of runout on the holder. Does anyone else use one > of these? Did you have to do anything special to get it to run true? > Thanks, Shawn Shawn: The accuracy and stability of the Sherline holder comes from the fact that it is seated on a square sholder just behind the Sherline spindle thread. Since the Taig spindle thread is about .220" longer than the Sherline, the holder is not seating against a shoulder. If you cut an accurate .220" spacer to compensate for this it should resolve your problem. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 02:49:25 -0400 From: Paul Anderson Subject: Re: Re: Sherline End Mill Holder n2562001 wrote: > If you cut a accurate .220" spacer to > compensate for this it should resolve your problem. It doesn't even need to be .220". So long as the ends are square and it's over .220", you'll be fine. ------- Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 14:54:54 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: Sherline End Mill Holder Paul: There are a couple of reasons I suggested a .220" spacer. First since the Taig spindle thread is longer so you will need at least .200" to properly seat. The second reason is just as important. The holder was designed to be used with a .312" long thread which is relatively short considering the diameter. Anything shorter than the .312" will start to decrease stability and accuracy under load. (Ask me how I know) The .220" spacer will just provide the full .312" thread while allowing the holder to seat properly. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 15:16:04 -0000 From: "Robin S." Subject: Re: Sherline End Mill Holder I think he was more worried about you not providing any tolerance specification on your measurement. There are people here who may not understand why you specified that number, and will try only to make precisely what you specified. This could mean much wasted time for no good reason. Just a thought :) Regards, Robin ------- Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 15:11:49 -0000 From: "klickcue" Subject: Re: Y-Axis Problem (Need help asap) --- In taigtoolsx~xxyahoogroups.com, "mmurray701" wrote: > The Y axis on my mill has always had more resistance than X and Z. I > tore it down before and didn't notice anything, so I just blamed it > on having the weight of the X axis on top of it. The problem seemed > to be getting worse if anything so I took it apart again tonight. I > noticed that the Y axis nut has left a significant scratch on the > bed below it. > What exactly holds the Y axis nut up in place? Mine currently has > nothing. Is this normal? I'm assuming its not normal due to the scratch. Nothing holds the Lead Screw Nut other than a little Loctite. There is a hole in the bed that a pin on the Nut slips into. Sounds like something has caused the nut to move out of position and jam. The nut should be up against the bottom of the bed. HTH. Chris Klindt ------- Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 17:57:49 -0000 From: "klickcue" Subject: Re: Y-Axis Problem (Need help asap) Hi Mark, I don't use anything on my pins when the Lead Nut Screw is installed into the hole. I like my lead nut to pivot if necessary. I don't understand what has caused the lead nut to come out of the hole unless something fell onto the lead screw and you were unaware. There is enough of a shoulder on the pin that it can move without falling out. Take a wooden dowel or plastic rod and stick it through the nut's threaded hole and rock the nut out. Clean the nut up, put it back in place and see if the fit is firm but not sloppy. Reassemble the machine and see how it works. I build custom and customized pool cues, so I have taken my machine apart several times to clean the junk out. I use automatic transmission fluid for my lube. The machine has run hundreds of hours and thousands of inches and still looks as nice as the day it arrived. Glue lines on pool cues don't sell, so the machine has to be on the money. I surface wood at 20-25 inches per minute and cut the pockets and inlays at 10 inches per minute with a 1/32 inch cutter. My web site is at http://www.geocities.com/klickcue/ if you would care to take a look.Oh, I am running a 2000LE CNC Taig Mill. HTH Best regards, Chris Klindt ------- Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 12:11:33 -0700 From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Subject: Re: Re: Y-Axis Problem (Need help asap) I'll add your site to my Taig user pages links! Great cues. I assume you're using a 4th axis, any details of your jigging/clamping of the cues? http://www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 19:46:56 -0000 From: "klickcue" Subject: Re: Y-Axis Problem (Need help asap)-cues Hi Nick, thank you. Yes, I am running a 4th axis. I add an extension table onto the mill to hold the full cue. On the extension table, I added a Sherline Tailstock http://www.sherline.com/3702pg.htm and a Sherline Right Hand Attachment without the upright post http://www.sherline.com/3701pg.htm. The forearm of the cue is done in one operation. The cue is then flipped around and the butt section is done in the next operation. The inlays are glued in and the whole cue is taken to the lathe, where the inlays are brought down to the surface of the cue. Best regards, Chris Klindt ------- Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 02:20:23 -0000 From: "mmurray701" Subject: Re: Y-Axis Problem (Need help asap) Hi, I put the nut back in place with green loctight (sleeve retainer). May be overkill but at least i'm sure it will hold. Seems to be working fine for now. Thanks for the advice. Mark ------- Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 11:42:02 -0000 From: "klickcue" Subject: Re: Y-Axis Problem (Need help asap)-cues --- In taigtoolsx~xxyahoogroups.com, Tony Jeffree wrote: > Chris - Great work! > Do you start from a ready made cue and then inlay into that, or is the > entire cue made by you? Regards, Tony Hi Tony, the butt of the cue starts out from 1 3/8" - 1 1/2" squares of wood. The squares are turned round and allowed to rest. The forearm of the cue is turned into a cone and allowed to rest. Rest means to allow the wood to warp and remove tension. Most of my cues are what I call 3 piece cues. The forearm is attached to the handle. The butt sleeve is cored/drilled and is fitted over a tenon extending from the handle. The inlays are cut on the mill. After the cue has been on the lathe, many times, and is down to almost finished size, it is placed on the mill. The mill cuts the pockets for the inlays to fit into. The inlays are glued into the pockets. After the glue has set, the cue is returned to the lathe for a final pass to completed size. After the cue is at final size, a linen (Irish Linen) or leather groove is cut into the cue to accept the wrap. From there, the cue goes into the topcoat/finish stage. Best regards, Chris Klindt ------- Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 16:52:30 -0000 From: "eferg2001" Subject: Re: 4th axis for 2019CR Taig mill I purchased the Sherline rotary with the motor mount (CNC ready) for my 2019CR Taig mill. I'm using a 210 oz Pac-Sci stepper. I just had to drill four new mounting holes in the rotary base plate as the Sherline and Taig table t-slots have different spacing. I mounted a Taig 4-jaw (soft jaw) chuck on the rotary. Regards, Ed Ferguson ------- Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2003 21:59:50 -0000 From: "ndyvo4" Subject: Alignment and Tolerances So there I was, checking the parallelism between the boxway/dovetail with the column. When I placed an indicator on the face of the boxway, right of the dovetail, I got 0.0005" over 3" of travel. On a whim, I switched to the other side of the boxway, left of the dovetail, and got 0.003" over 3" travel. This was disturbing so before I went any further, I dismounted the column to check for any debris at the column face. As it turns out, there was a piece of what looked like silicone potting compound (or some other form of RTV). I replaced the column and repeated the measurements and found that it varied by 0.001", regardless of where the indicator was contacting the boxway. But before I continue, where could I find "acceptable" tolerances for these sorts of specifications? Is it worth the effort to zero out that 0.001"? And to add to the list of things to check: I removed the dovetail from the boxway and found metal flash pressed between the dovetail and boxway; it looked like it came from the mounting holes. In addition to the flash, I found what looked like yard debris - blades of grass, bits of weeds... ------- Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 13:37:13 -0700 From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Subject: Re: Alignment and Tolerances Getting less than a thou (.001) is pretty damn good. Don't know about the yard debris - the one I just put together seemed clean. I did have to add a .001 shim at the bottom of the dovetail, now it reads less than .001 out over a 6" circle. Remember that flex, etc can throw off indicator readings. Chasing the last .001 will drive you insane, I know, I've been there. I once had the mill aligned almost perfectly, tried to take out the last .001 and ended up having to spend several more hours just to get back to where I was before. http://www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 05:08:02 -0000 From: "mmurray701" Subject: Re: White plastic bits for CNC mill --- In taigtoolsx~xxyahoogroups.com, "Scott A. Stephens" wrote: > The little white plastic bits that go between the CNC coupler to the motor > and the spacer. What function do they preform??? I am getting ready to > put everything together and was wondering. They are the main part of the couplers. They transfer power from one part of the coupler to the other and allow a little movement to prevent binding. Without them, the motor would spin without turning the leadscrew. Make sure the holes on each half of the coupler face each other and the plastic pieces are in place. You won't get far without them. Mark ------- Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 02:54:18 -0700 From: "Scott A. Stephens" Subject: Re: White plastic bits for CNC mill >They drive the leadscrew - rather than go with a direct coupling, Taig >wanted something that would give if the table bound. >They fit in the 4 holes on each coupler. >>http://www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html Before I begin taking things about and putting everything together. Does the dial gage on each axis stay on or come off? I have looked at pictures of a few people's conversions and cannot tell. ------- Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 11:34:57 -0000 From: "mmurray701" Subject: Re: White plastic bits for CNC mill Put the dial guage on first; this will only cover about 1/4 of the keyway. Then goes the part of the coupler without the recessed end (holes facing out). And then the nyloc nut. Don't over-tighten the nut, it causes the bearings to bind if it's too tight. After that, just screw the other coupler onto the motor shaft, screw the motor to the mount, insert the plastic inserts and thread the mount onto the axis (taking care that the inserts line up), and secure with the round band and set screw. Hope this helps. Mark ------- Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 12:24:53 -0700 From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Subject: Re: z axis adjustment > Hi, I've got a CNC taig mill. I wanted to adjust the Z axis because > it seemed loose. You could rock the axis back and forth and there was > space between the "L" shaped piece that bolts to the side of the box > and wraps around the back of the ways. I was a little confused as to > how to properly adjust this amount of play since the gib does not seem > to contact this at all. Does someone know the correct procedure for > doing this? Thanks, The L shaped pieces should be adjusted against the slide as hard as you can with hand pressure/soft hammer. The gib and other smaller box slide keeps the headstock from yawing right or left. http://www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 00:08:58 -0400 From: Ken Jenkins Subject: Re: Motor mounting in front / power-head assembly > How about mounting the motor? How many people kept the motor in the > current location or how many changed the mount to something like Ken > Jenkins? Thanks Mark FYI: My reason for mounting the motor in the front was mainly balance. I like the idea of symmetrically loading "Z". Since I originally put up the pictures of the mount on my site I have removed a lot of metal (eg. cutting out the rectangular side panel centers and slotting the supports which go from the lower end of the motor to the upper end) to further reduce the weight of the whole assembly (although the weight of x~xx13lbs doesn't seem to phase Z-travel at all). I don't know how easy it is to see from the pictures but the motor is mounted to the top of the headstock with a steel plate, special long T-nuts and 8 Allen screws. Power is transmitted with a short XL timing belt/pulley arrangement and there is an adjustment of x~xx.750" in order to tension the belt. The whole assembly is very rigid and it has the advantage that I can remove the whole assembly from the Z-axis (the cable that runs from the motor to the controller box is x~xx 6 ft) and I have in essence a kind of "general purpose - variable speed - power-head". I have an aluminum base plate on which I have mounted a plate like the one on the Z-axis (a \__________/-like cross section). I slide the head onto this plate just like on Z (except now it is in a horizontal orientation). I have several "tools" I am planning to build which will be powered by this. 1. A small diameter blade modeling table saw. 2. A modeling thickness sander. 3. A tool grinding set up . I recently completed another "head" for the mill which allows me to mount a DEWALT laminate trimmer in place of the power-head described above. I used an extra riser block as the start for this and it works very well. When I'm a little less busy I'm going to update the web site: http://kj.cloudcitydigital.com/ Cheers, Ken J. ------- Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 00:10:42 -0400 From: Ken Jenkins Subject: Dewalt laminate trimmer mounted to Taig mill I wanted to be able to mount a high speed router to my Taig mill for plastics and woods. I choose the Dewalt DW660 laminate trimmer for its size and because I'm kind of a "yellow fellow" when it comes to power tools (everything else I have is Dewalt too ... which my wife attributes to my desire to color coordinate the shop :-). We'll see how it holds up when I run my first 5 hour contour job! So far for x~xx30 minute runs it doesn't even break a sweat and runs with almost dead zero vibration when engraving. The mount started out as a Taig stock riser block which I modified to include two collars to clamp the DW660. You could change the design to incorporate just about any small router-type tool. Check it out: http://kj.cloudcitydigital.com/pages/taig_mill_d660mount.html Cheers, Ken Jenkins ------- Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 01:19:53 -0400 From: Ken Jenkins Subject: Simple CNC plotter pencil from Staedtler mechanical pencil I have played around with various ways of pen plotting with the Taig CNC for a while as I'm sure all of you CNC dabblers out there have at one time or another (saves on tooling ... better a broken pencil lead than a 1/4" tool crashed into the table before you can hit ESTOP!!). I mount laminated particle board to the Taig table as my "drafting board" and use a simple springloaded plotter pencil made from a standard Staedtler mechanical pencil mounted in my .500 mill arbor. I took the Staedtler pencil (x~xx$4.00 at Staples) down to its bare guts by stripping away all the plastic. Then I turned a small shoulder where the pencil knurling is. This shoulder press fits into a part which when combined with a spring slides into another part which is secured in the mill arbor. Check it out: http://kj.cloudcitydigital.com/pages/CNCplotterpen.html Cheers, Ken Jenkins ------- Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 00:57:20 -0400 From: Mark A Woloszyk Subject: Re: Re: Extended Y-axis it's hard to find. it's just a text article on cartertools.com. Credit goes to author. I haven't tried it yet so I cant say if it works or not. I have one other Taig tip for the Taig mill, this tip has been posted to the group but I have not heard anything about anyone trying it which surprised me since it is a "free" modification meaning for a little time and scrap metal you get a great return, that is you can increase your Taigs Y axis by 1.50 inches from 5.5 to over 7 inches on more than one occasion I have needed a few turns more to cut a project and ran out of movement, Taig makes a mill that has more X axis movement but none with more Y axis, so here is what I did, I removed the crank handle and mounting plate from in front of the mill and unscrewed the leadscrew I then flycut a block of aluminum approx 1.5" thick and the size of the mill recieving surface, I then drilled a center hole larger than the leadscrew so it could turn freely, I made a template to mark out the location of the mountion screws on the mounting plate and replaced the short screws with longer screws and the freshly flycut ( on all sides of course) block was slipped into place, mounting plate and leadscrew replaced. I have used this setup for about one year or so with perfect results, in addition no other modifications are needed, due to Taigs overkill engineering the lead screw is long enough to allow full movement of the new Y axis extension. I use a machining vise that has no place on the Taig mill, due to this set up I can mount a 4 inch wide machining vise and machine parts in one set up that I could not do before. I am interested in hearing from anyone that tries this mod. and what they think of it. Chris DiCintio ------- Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 13:15:06 -1000 (HST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Confessions of a Shop Dweeb Ok, confession time. Hopefully someone else can learn from my mistake: I'm making another index wheel for my lathe to compliment the 60 hole wheel I got from Nick. I decided to do all the work on my CNC mill, which worked out well with a couple of caveats. It's the caveats that nabbed me. The wheel was a bolt-down mill-out job. I used a 1/8" mill, and a couple of drills. It worked ok, but it seemed like the drill holes were off by a very very little. On to the pulley! I used a different bolt hole pattern (bad idea), so I had to drill and tap more holes in the pulley. I did this by mounting the 4-jaw chuck to the mill table, mounting the pulley in the chuck, and indicating off the center bore with a TDI. So far so good. I switched to the drill chuck, chucked up a center drill, and drilled out the pattern. Switched to the tap drill, repeated the pattern. Tapped, deburred, and got ready to put the new index wheel on the pulley... No dice! The holes didn't line up at all! I figured I'd goofed on the toolpath, so I turned right around and made a second wheel. Same problem. That's when I got out the calipers. The drill holes on the index wheel were all off to one side by about 0.010". The holes on the pulley were all off on the order of 0.030". I figured there was something wrong with my software, so I spent a week coming up with test patterns to run on my mill. For the sake of simplicity, I only used a 1/8" end mill, even when running drill cycles (only 0.050" deep, so not a big deal). THOSE came out good to 0.001" or so. No matter what I did, no matter if it was G01, G02, G03, G81, G83, etc., they all came out dead-on. I don't know what finally made me check the alignment on my mill. Maybe it was desperation, maybe it was just time. In any case, I found my column was out of line by over 1/8" in 4". The only thing I can trace this back to is a series of tool crashes I had... six months ago. I've been very good about re-leveling the mill head, especially since I've been doing a lot of horizontal milling recently. Turns out the mill head and spindle was in excellent alignment with the mill table. But the COLUMN was way off. Here's how the errors popped up: The height difference between my 1/8" end mill and my center drill is small, maybe a few tenths of an inch. With the offset in the mill column, this meant the center drill marks were slightly off to one side when compared to the features cut by the mill. On the pulley things were more extreme. My TDI eats up a lot of column space, so the difference in height between the end of the TDI and the center drill is closer to an inch. So the error between the hole pattern and the center of the spindle bore was greater. Much chagrined, I lined up my column again so it's better than half a thou in four inches. The spindle is also lined up to comparable tolerances. I re-cut the index plate and bolt pattern in the pulley this afternoon, and it came out almost perfect. (Close enough that I can't tell, anyway.) Lessons learned... On a more pleasant note, my wife is getting into jewelry making more and more. Last night she was going through some catalogs and making "Hmmm" noises over some tools. She started to show me some of them, and I said, "Got that, don't got that, got that, got that, don't got that, ..." The upshot is that I've already got many of the tools she needed, and she's going to be sharing shop space with me now. I'm looking forward to it. One of the things I lost when I moved from Texas was my shop buddy. The hours pass a lot better when there's someone else in the shop with you. Tom P.S. She couldn't believe how bad my mill column was. Neither could I. ------- Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 18:29:47 -1000 (HST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: Adjusting Mill headstock? On Sun, 2 Nov 2003, mmurray701 wrote: > I havent really had a need to have my headstock alighned precisely > front to back before but i'm doing a job now where I'd like to have > it a little closer. I know it is off a little. Side to side > adjustment isnt a problem, I'm just wondering about front to back. I > can handle measuring how much its off, just wondering how to correct > it? Any advice? Thanks! A couple of methods come to mind. One is to measure how much it's off, front to back, over a distance equal to the length of the dovetail the headstock fits onto. Let's say it's 0.002". Get some 0.002" shim stock or clip a little off an 0.002" feeler gauge, and use it to shim the dovetail. Now align side-to-side. Put on the headstock and verify. The second is to drill and tap some #10-32 holes in the dovetail the headstock fits onto, and put in some set screws. Use these to adjust front-back angle, then use the normal methods to do side-to-side alignment. Install the headstock and verify. There are likely other ways (and better ways!) Tom ------- Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 19:03:08 -0000 From: "zzz_zinger" Subject: Assistance, please, on mill alignment List, I have been asked to help solve an alignment problem with a new Taig mill. It seems that I can not offer a solution to this problem and perhaps that someone on this list who is more knowledgable than I am can lend a hand. The following was forwared to me in regards to drilling with the mill: "I guess I am not being very clear about my alignment problem. The Taig table moves in the X and Y axes but remains stationary in the Z- axis. The head moves up and down in the Z-axis. When I drill with a short drill (i.e. a center drill) and then raise the head to insert a longer drill (such as a 1/4th" drill) then lower the head to finish the hole to size, the point of the longer drill does not line up with the starter hole even when I lock the X and Y axes. The new hole seems centered OK on the Y axis but is displaced to the right almost 1/8th". My conclusion is that this is caused because the spindle is not parallel to the column." If anyone can offer advice which I can pass on, it will be appreciated. Thank you. Jim Milne ------- Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 11:08:13 -0800 From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Subject: Re: Assistance, please, on mill alignment Sounds like the column needs to be trammed in. http://www.cartertools.com/millset.html http://www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 09:34:10 -1000 (HST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: Assistance, please, on mill alignment Having just wrecked two parts from something that sounds exactly like what you're describing, I can second what Nick said. Just in case the party in question says, "But my mill spindle is trammed in just fine!": Keep in mind that the Taig column and the Taig spindle are two separate entities, and one can be trammed in just fine while the other is wildly out of alignment. In my case my mill head was good to 0.001" over a 3" circle, but the column was out of line by a lot. Tramming the column and re-tramming the spindle fixed it. Tom -------- Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 15:27:13 -1000 (HST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: Re: Mill Motor Can't Pull High Pulley Speed "Lynn Livingston" wrote: >> I got the CNC ready mill about 5 months ago. It's been used manually >> for a few projects and I've never needed to run the spindle at top pulley >> speed. I converted to CNC a few weeks ago and wanted to try engraving. >> That's when I found out the motor doesn't appear to have the >> strength to pull the spindle at the highest pulley speed. >> When I turn the motor on, it just kinda' runs slowly and makes >> noise. When I back the belt down to the next slower speed, it works On Sat, 20 Dec 2003, luisguillermo98 wrote: > I had the same problem. This is because the spidle has not been run > that speed very often.. I had to loose the belt then power the motor > on and them when got high speed tight the belt/screw and is ready. > you have to run the spidle few mores times until it can run by > itself. Run the spidle for few hour on this speed and will work > fine.. remember this is 1/8 hp motor and torque is dramatically > decreased when pulley is changed to 10000rpm.. Heh! Man I'm glad I'm not the only one who did that. When my mill first arrived it wouldn't power on at anything but the bottom speed. I'd shove the motor over, get it running, then shove it back and tension the belt. The whole time I was thinking to myself, "You are definitely getting cheesy now." But it worked! These days my spindle will start at any of the belt settings. I second what Luis says. Tom ------- Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 05:09:59 -0000 From: "Lynn Livingston" Subject: Re: Mill Motor Can't Pull High Pulley Speed Luis, Tom, You guys were right. I let the mill run for a couple hours this afternoon on the high speed and now it will actually start up there. It stll starts very slow and takes about 4 secs to spool up, but it does get there. Thanks guys, Lynn Livingston ------- Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 05:31:54 -0000 From: "John Bentley" Subject: Manual mill bearings getting a bit warm on top speed. My new mill runs cold on the five lowest speeds, but the headstock warms at the 5400 rpm belt setting on the standard 1/5 hp Franklin motor. There are no hot spots - the heat oozes through the headstock extrusion and fills the vertical carriage, stopping short of passing into the Z-slide and column, presumably due to the lower thermal conduction of the steel. My lathe isn't used at full speed very often, but don't recall the same bearing warming as I'm getting on the mill. The lathe's original spindle is well worn in, being made in 1986. I replaced that spindle last year and don't think the new one has been run at any length above the third speed. There is no sign of grease leakage from the mill's bearings and the temperature (so far) has only reached a nice comfortable degree to the touch - nothing close to the normal high temperature of the Franklin motor. The heat is definitely is coming from the bearings, not the motor, as I have leather vibration insulation between the motor and its supporting stock. The mill is functioning perfectly and there are no odd noises. I am assuming that the heat is being generated partly because the mill is new and that as long as I don't let it get excessively warm, I won't get into trouble. I doubt the warming will stop entirely in my lifetime - I have a Faneuil watchmaker's lathe that does the same thing, and it was made 102 years ago! Has anyone noticed a similar heating trend with the standard spindle in the manual mill? John ------- Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 10:27:18 +0000 From: Steve Blackmore Subject: Re: Manual mill bearings getting a bit warm on top speed. >Has anyone noticed a similar heating trend with the standard spindle >in the manual mill? Don't worry about it, same thing as Lynn's problem. It'll get happier when it's run like that for a while. I regularly run mine at 10K rpm. It gets hot, but not damagingly so. I believe the existing bearings are rated for 10K, one of the jobs on my list is to replace the head, spindle and bearings with probably an ER16 spindle. I'd also use high speed bearings. Steve Blackmore ------- Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 18:52:19 +0000 From: Steve Blackmore Subject: Re: Doh - Missing parts on CNC mill > So I took my mill apart for cleaning, and to install my DeskCNC >servo system onto it, when I realized I managed to loose those little >plastic tubing pieces that goes into forming the coupling between the >servo shaft and the leadscrew shaft. It seems like some sort of >thick tubing, almost like a ball point pen shaft, only much thicker. >I would rather source this material locally if possible, so that I >can be happily making chips on Christmas morning. Can someone give >me the specs for this tubing material? Many thanks! The inners out of Carl Goldberg pushrods (as used in RC Aircraft) fit perfectly & work fine. None came with my mill. Steve Blackmore ------- Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 03:44:22 -0000 From: "mmurray701" Subject: Removing Headstock Pulley? I was thinking about making some customs pullies and tried to get the original off to get some measurements. I removed the set screw of course and it didnt budge. I then assumed it was a press fit so heated it up. It would turn a little, and after some twisting back and forth i got it off about maybe 3/8". Got really tight after that and I gave up. It didn't just cool down, I tried re-heating. Really surprised they are on there that well. Any tips in removing it? Or could somebody possibly provide a drawing of the internal dimensions? Thanks! Mark ------- Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 05:27:53 -0000 From: "Lynn Livingston" Subject: Re: Removing Headstock Pulley? If you didn't file a flat on the spindle shaft before installing the pulley originally, then the set screw has probably raised a burr on the shaft causing interference. If that's the case, you'll probably do better with a gear puller. If you don't have one, try your local AutoZone parts store. They will usually rent or loan one to you. They are available in varying sizes so be sure to get a small one that fits the job. One note though. Since the shaft is hollow, and the puller will want to use the end of the shaft for leverage, you may want to turn some sort of cone plug for the puller screw to bear against. If the puller screw is bullet shaped, you could bore a corresponding shape into the cone plug end to "capture" the puller screw. That will keep the puller screw from wandering while your trying to get it going. Also, if the pulley is really stuck, there might be a chance that the puller screw would put enough pressure on the cone plug to expand the end of the spindle shaft a little. I would again use some heat on the pulley to lessen the force needed for the puller to remove the pulley. You could also make some wood wedges to drive between the spindle housing and the pulley, but this would lead to side loads on the bearings. I don't know for sure what kind of spindle bearings are in the lathe, and I don't know if they are designed for appreciable side loads. This may not be the best of ideas! Regards, Lynn Livingston ------- Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 05:30:03 -0000 From: "vks_generic" Subject: Re: Removing Headstock Pulley? I think a gear puller is your friend. When I had to take mine off, I looked in a neighboring hardware store for a puller. $40. ouch. Being cheap, improvised and "made" one with a couple of small clamps, a steel bar a bolt and a nut. It takes a few minutes, but does the job. Internal dimensions? The only "internal" dimension, I guess, is the bore on the pulley, which, I believe, is 5/8". You can measure everything else without removing the pulley. Vlad ------- Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 06:25:15 -0000 From: "mmurray701" Subject: Re: Removing Headstock Pulley? Thanks for the quick replies guys. This is on a CNC mill and the headstock came pre-assembled. No idea if the flat is there or not. Wood wedges are out of the question I think. Seems to be on there better than that. I do have a puller here that I think would remove it. I considered using this but wanted a second opinion to be sure I wouldn't damage anything. Also, the spindle doesn't extend through the pulley so there is nothing for the puller screw to press against. Can I just thread a blank arbor on and put a piece of rod through the spindle (and resting on the arbor) for the center bolt to go on? When I said internal dimensions I was referring to the two different diameter bores and the length of each. Its not a simple straight through bore. Can somebody confirm the 5/8 bore and tell me the depth of it? I can measure the other bore without removing and I only need the depth of one. If I don't get an answer i'll have to take another stab at removing it. Thanks! Mark ------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 07:04:04 -0000 From: "stokessd" Subject: Re: Removing Headstock Pulley? As the owner of both the lathe and CNC mill, I notice that the pulley end of the spindle appears to be subtly different on the two. My lathe pulleys slip off and my Mill pulleys are stuck like glue as well. Maybe Nick will weigh in on this one. I am afraid to pull harder than I have on mine and I've gotten no joy on removing them. Sheldon ------- Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 09:18:56 -0800 From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Subject: Re: Re: Removing Headstock Pulley? They made the pulleys almost a shrink fit and put them on with heat. The setscrew has raised a burr. What I do is remove the spindle cartridge from the headstock housing, make a punch that will slip fit in the bore of the pulley but bear against the spindle end and press it out with an arbor press. Wedges may cause problems due to side loads, but a gear puller will work well too (but may mar the pulley edges). http://www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 16:41:21 -0000 From: "eferg2001" Subject: Re: Using Taig CNC mill as a manual mill > I have the Micromill 2000LE and lots of times I find that a > manual mill would would be much easier for making some parts. I was > wondering if you guys also use your CNC mills as manual mills? If so, > do you just remove the knobs from the steppers and add the hand > cranks? Does the controller have to be turned while I'm doing manual > milling (so I can release the axis), or can I just leave the > controller turned off? Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks, Dan My Taig CNC Mill has Pac-Sci 210 oz. dual shaft steppers. I took the stock Taig hand cranks and added a bronze bushing so they fit the stepper shaft, and drilled / tapped for a set screw. I have Gecko micro-stepping drivers and just turn off the controller when using the cranks. Some folks will tell you that adding the cranks produces a flywheel effect that will cause missed steps. I've made numerous tests with a dial indicator and rapid feeds, and have never missed a step. Regards, Ed Ferguson ------- Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 09:56:32 -0800 From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Subject: Re: CNC Mill - Leadscrew nuts > I am intending to upgrade my mill from an Manual unit . > Examining the Taig Mill Parts Diagram and Parts list I notice > different part numbers for the X and Y Leadscrew nuts. > Manual CNC > X 200-23 200-23A > Y 200-22 200-22A > What is the difference and should I get the CNC nuts? The x and y nuts do have different handedness. The CNC nuts are split down the centerline and have screws for adjusting the tightness of the threads on the screw, thus moderating (but not eliminating) backlash. The z-axis uses the weight of the head to eliminate backlash (which is why you shouldn't have the gibs too tight on the z-axis, as that can screw up the backlash) and has the same nut as the manual machine. I think all the nuts, both manual and CNC are made of bronze. If you are converting to CNC you ought to get the CNC nuts, as you will have wear rapidly increasing backlash with the manual nuts... http://www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 18:21:16 -0000 From: "scuffer52" Subject: Lead screw nut adjustment/replacement Changing and adjusting the leadscrew nuts for the cnc Taig mill seems to be a common question so I posted some photos(under Greg Miller) of when I changed the Taig cnc leadscrew nuts from the old type to the new adjustable style and also include some steps I used to adjust them for backlash. The bearings should also be examined for play and after everything is adjusted there is also the choice of using the backlash compensation from the controller software MPS2000. I am no professional, just muddled through this myself so if anyone has something to add please join in.... Cheers, Greg Miller, Vancouver ------- Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 23:06:36 -0000 From: "Robin S." Subject: Re: How to machine faster on taig cnc mill? --- In taigtoolsx~xxyahoogroups.com, "asrpas" wrote: > Could someone advice best strategy for machining large pockets in > aluminum. It seems to be taking long time to machine on Taig CNC > mill. I'm not sure if I'm using right cutters, feed & speeds as follows: > Cutter: Carbide 2 flute slot cutter specially deisgned for Aluminum > with 45 degree flute angle. > Diameter: 1/4" (wish I could use large cutter but restricted because > of few islands sticking in the pockets) > Depth of cut : 1/8"x 2 cuts total depth 1/4". (theoretically I should > be able to cut in a single depth of cut but taig fails to take a deep > cut even thou I'm using a steep ramp angle to plung-in) > Feed & Speed: RPM 8000, Feed 60 IPM. Step over: 0.15" (60% of cutter dia) > Machining pocket sizes: 2"x10"x0.25" deep Cooling: Mist cooling > As I'm not convinced with the time it takes. I'll appereciate if > someone could share the experience to reduce the timing somehow. Is > it faster to machine slowly with deep cuts or machine faster with > light cuts. Thanks in advance. You should seriously consider a roughing endmill to rough out the pocket. They cut more efficiently so that you can run faster and take a heavier DOC with the very limited HP of the Taig or any other desktop machine. You should experiment with your cycle - take heavier DOC's and slow down your feed and speed. Typically you will increase the life of your cutter by taking a heavier DOC. Speaking of, you should try HSS tooling. It is typically sharper than carbide and the Taig isn't exactly very well suited to running cutters that require high power spindles. Listen to your machine. This is what the feed override is for. Play with it. Listen for the spindle and axis drives bogging down. You should be able to use max HP in your situation. Anything less is a waste of time. HTH. Regards, Robin ------- Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 18:47:31 -0000 From: "double_down_2x" Subject: Re: Flood Coolant Recovery on a Mill --- In taigtoolsx~xxyahoogroups.com, "buddyborders" wrote: > I have seen various posts that refer to using flood coolant while > cutting the part. I know this makes a mess and have been looking > through the photos and files sections looking for ideas on how the > coolant recovery is done and filtered. Thank you, Buddy Philadelphia, PA Buddy, the way I have my setup is I used a plastic bin (39"x18"x6")that I bought at Target store for around $10, and built a box stand out of aluminum angle about 3.5" high for the mill to sit on. I made a couple of rectangle box screens out of small aluminum angle to put on each size of the mill to catch the chips. The coolant is in the plastic bin below the screen. For a coolant pump, I used a small fountain pump with a small hose connected to the Z-axis that can quickly detach when needed. To keep the coolant from going everywhere, I surrounded the bin with plastic curtain, and made sure the plastic is inside the plastic bin. The reason I used plastic curtain is it is easy to remove when I need to oil the back side of the X axis way. It would be nice if I can find a bin that is 4'x2'x6". With the setup I have now, the Y axis sticks out of the bin just a little. Have fun with your new mill. Jon ------- Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 08:56:28 +0930 From: "Eric Parsonage" Subject: t nuts I notice that Sherline sells T Nuts in packets of 10; does anybody know if Taig do the same ? If not will the Sherline T Nuts fit a Taig Mill ? Regards Eric -------- Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 17:53:36 -0700 From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Subject: Re: t nuts Sherline t-nuts will not fit the mill. You should just make nuts yourself out of 1/2" x 1/4" bar stock cut into 3/4" lengths and drilled and tapped either #10-32 or 1/4"-20 see: http://www.cartertools.com/picture.html#MCT http://www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 17:55:31 -0700 From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Subject: New Article: Faking a Fourth Axis on the Taig CNC Mill I've been having fun in the shop, see my new article: "Faking a Fourth Axis on the Taig CNC Mill": http://www.cartertools.com/fake4th.html As usual, let me know if I have any errors, poor math, etc, etc. See our web pages http://www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 23:51:45 -1000 (HST) From: benedictx~xxhawaii.rr.com Subject: Re: New Article: Faking a Fourth Axis on the Taig CNC Mill Definitely good! But you didn't have anything about not mirroring your toolpath! (Sorry, Tony... Hadda... Especially after I made the same mistake and put my name backward on a part I'd spent hours on.) Tom ------- Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 10:54:24 +0100 From: Tony Jeffree Subject: Re: New Article: Faking a Fourth Axis on the Taig CNC Mill Absolutely... Just shows the value of testing your setup on a piece of scrap before you screw up the hours of work put into that lovingly crafted part... Regards, Tony ------- Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 18:20:35 +0100 From: Tony Jeffree Subject: Re: New Article: Faking a Fourth Axis on the Taig CNC Mill At 17:50 29/04/2004, you wrote: >I guess it didn't occur to me that it was possible - the Sherline table >worked fine without me thinking about it, come to think of it, the rotation >is clockwise when the handle is turned clockwise - how is Tony's dividing >head different? All my rotary tables have the same movement.... It all depends how the motor is wired & how the software that controls that axis is set up. I had to mount the motor the other way around to un-mirror the image, but I could have achieved the same result by either telling the software that the Y axis leadscrew was the opposite handedness, or by reversing the connections on one of the motor phases. I figured that as my dividing head had the option of mounting the motor either way around, that was the simplest solution. I guess you lucked out by getting it right first time. Regards, Tony ------- Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 16:22:39 -0000 From: "andesign2" Subject: Y-axis backlash adjustment I have a CNC taig mill and would like to adjust the y-axis backlash. How do you go about adjusting the y-axis nut? I have already removed any play at the bearing. I just don't see how you can get to the nut without taking the whole mill apart. I have never taken the mill completely apart. Am I missing something? Thank you, Jason ------- Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 09:35:52 -0700 From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Subject: Re: Y-axis backlash adjustment You do pretty much have to take the mill apart, at least part way. You need to unscrew the y-axis bearing block, preferably unscrew the y-axis leadscrew (to avoid accidentally damaging it) and slide the y-axis off its slide. Then flip it over. Re-insert the screw, taking all and every care to avoid bending it accidentally, and then adjust the nut on the screw (unscrew the center setscrew a tiny part of a turn and screw in the two cap screws again a tiny amount, say 1/32 of a full rotation, then retighten the center setscrew) - do not overtighten the nut! usually you need only the tiniest adjustment to remove backlash, and it should still screw smoothly on - any tightness is bad. You could probably just slide the y-axis halfway off it's slide and adjust from underneath, but taking it apart is easier and then you can clean up any stray chips, relube, etc... How much backlash do you have - don't bother if it is under about .004" See our web pages http://www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 16:57:46 -0500 From: "Bad Brad" Subject: RE: Zeroing mill dial >From: "ccarlile1" >The Y-axis dial on my Taig mill is very stiff and dificult to zero. >Cleaning and re-oiling does not help. I can't find any obvious >adjustments. Can anyone help? Thanks, Clay I think you mean the collar on your resetable handwheels. (?) You may need to take the collar off and clean the swarf that has collected under it. To take the collar off, remove the hanwheel after lining up the setscrew hole in the handwheel. Remove the handwheel with an allen wrench. Remove the collar by removing the pinch wheel on the front of the handwheel and slide the collar off. Don't use any oil on the surface where the collar rides, it should be dry and clean (no chips). Bad Brad Rabid Weasel Racing Team ------- Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 10:22:26 -0700 From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Subject: Re: mill handcrank removal From: "Chris Abbott" > Once I have the locknut off the end of the shaft, how do I get the > handcrank off the leadscrew? I must be missing something obvious, but > I don't want to damage the shaft threads in the process. > It's a 2019CR and I'm about to install the stepper mounts. I have the > stepper mounting instructions, but I expected the handcranks to come > off fairly easily. Will be using a Xylotex board to drive the axes. > Thanks in advance. ChrisA Mississauga You should be able to just pull it off, possibly some cutting oil has gotten in and varnished everything together. Spray some WD-40 and try pulling it straight off. See our web pages http://www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 17:31:43 -0000 From: "rrrevels" Subject: Re: mill handcrank removal The hand wheels should slip off. I just finished CNCing my mill a couple of weeks ago. One note, concerning the z axis. The shaft will slip down through the collar if you aren't careful. I had to lift the head stock and tap the ring to get the shaft high enough for the keyway to be visible. I had let it slip without realizing it. You may have to pry the handwheel but be easy, it is just stuck. Lift on the handwheel and tap the shaft with a rubber mallet should come right off. Also I am not a machinist and when I replaced the handwheels with the couplers and stepper adapter I didn't think about the nut fitting between the couplers. I had to take everything apart and fix it. I am using the xylotex board with a 24v ps and a 486-100 laptop and turbocnc with 187 oz/in steppers. It works well I don't try to push it but it appears to give me 25ipm rapids and a 10ipm cut with no problems. Russ ------- Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 17:56:23 -0700 From: Don Rogers Subject: Re: mill handcrank removal >Once I have the locknut off the end of the shaft, how do I get the >handcrank off the leadscrew? I must be missing something obvious, but >I don't want to damage the shaft threads in the process. As an Ex machine repairman in a GM tool room, I would like to offer a tip for removing anything from a threaded shaft. Screw on a plain nut so it fully covers the threads before tapping, pounding, etc. This will prevent banging up the threads. Even a rubber mallet, wood mallet, etc can sometimes mar the threads. If you need to use a puller, get a threaded coupling that fits the threads and screw a sacrificial screw in opposite to the shaft threads. I don't like prying things off a shaft. You can easily bend a small threaded shaft like the Taig leadscrews. The handles should just slip off like most said. Just don't make the mistake that I made with the first one of trying push everything through the bushing block (older machine with bushing vs bearings on the screw) The woodruff key jammed up pretty good on that try. Don ------- Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 20:30:04 -0000 From: "Jim Stoll" Subject: Re: mill handcrank removal Don't feel too bad Chris - I had my machine about 50% torn apart (trying to remove the cranks) before sanity prevailed and I got on the phone w/ Nick - who patiently explained to me that they were just a little stuck on the shaft and would slide right off if I would please just stop trashing my brand-new machine... ;-) I was sure that there was some hidden piece somewhere down in the bowels of the machine that was responsible for the cranks not coming off... <:-) Sure enough, a few taps w/ a wooden mallet and off they popped! Enjoy! Jim ------- NOTE TO FILE: The thread "Re: Collet Precision - CNC Mill" started in the taigtools group in July 2004 and was recorded in my text file "Cutters, Collets and Arbors" because the info was of interest to any brand of small lathe or milling machine. Please read it there. ------- Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 09:05:31 +0100 From: Tony Jeffree Subject: Re: locking the column [taigtools group] At 06:40 03/08/2004, campgems wrote: >>Well, I get to re-align my column and head again. I was doing some one line moves and bit off a bit more cut than the spindle motor would handle. It stalled and the X kept moving and whacked the column about 5 degrees out of alignment before I could smash the stop button. My question is, has anyone pinned the colmun to the base? I think I heard on the list that you should not overtighten the lock nut, so I am looking for a little more positive lock for the column. I don't think I would ever need to move the column for angle cutting, but would rather not make the pin something that would be dificult to remove if I did want to change the angle. << You certainly could lock the column by drilling & doweling it at the base. However, you must consider the consequences of this, namely, that if the column doesn't give, then something else surely will. Depending upon the size of the tooling you are using at the time, what gives could be the end mill (relatively not a problem - just a few $$ down the drain), or you could end up damaging the headstock/spindle itself (more expensive). For my money, I prefer the safety factor of having the column go out of alignment when I screw up, rather than some potentially more serious damage. The other point, obviously, is that if you do go down the locking route, you'd better be sure the alignment is perfect before you drill the dowel hole, otherwise you will have a rigid, but perfectly misaligned column... Regards, Tony ------- Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 14:28:01 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: locking the column Tony, I am going to have respectfully disagree with you. End mills tend to grab metal and pull into the stock rather than push away. To have a column that will move into the stock under load is dangerous and has a good chance of causing all of the problems you have described. I have never owned a Taig mill but have worked on two of them each having Don's problem. I resolved the problem by bolting a angle plate on the side of the column as well as one on the base with mating surfaces that are bolted together. This limited the range you could tilt the column but did resolve the problem. It was done this way as a cost saving approach per owner request. Personally I would have welded in two larger solid blocks of steel, one on the column one on the base locked together with a larger fine thread bolt. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 16:21:00 +0100 From: Tony Jeffree Subject: Re: Re: locking the column Jerry - I would absolutely agree with you that running the mill with the column so loose that it won't resist normal cutting forces is a very dangerous thing to do. That is not what I was suggesting. In my experience of owning and using a Taig CNC mill, and having experienced the very problem that Don identified, the X axis on a CNC'd Taig is perfectly capable of shoving the Z out of alignment when the column is clamped much more tightly than would be required to resist cutting forces even on heavy cuts. I have never, to date, had the column shift out of alignment due to a cutter grab of the kind you describe; I have, however, knocked it out of alignment on more than one occasion by being over enthusiastic with the FPM setting when cutting a part. As I said, under those conditions, where you have a hefty stepper winding a 20 IPM screw, something is going to give if the column is locked up solid. My personal preference is to go for the minor job of realigning the column when that happens. So we will have to agree to disagree ;-) Regards, Tony ------- Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 16:32:41 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: locking the column Tony, no problem. Both of these machines were used for manual machining. When the column would move slightly the end mill would pull deeper and deeper into the stock until everything locked up. The column locking bolts were very tight to the point of causing damage. Both of these people should have purchased much larger machines for what they were trying to machine. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 05:54:11 -0000 From: "campgems" Subject: Re: locking the column >>You certainly could lock the column by drilling & doweling it at the base. However, you must consider the consequences of this, namely, that if the column doesn't give, then something else surely will.<< Yes, I've thought of that. Usually, with the work I do, it's the mill. Most of my work is done with under 1/8" mills. However, why is it OK for the column to give with X movement and not with Y movement? I haven't seen anything about damaging anything with a stalled mill like this, or even knocking things out of alignment. This time, I was using a 7/16" to face off an aluminum T nut I am making to mount a quick change tool post on a Atlas 6" I just bought. This is the second time I've knocked off the column. The first was before I converted it to cnc. I was cranking what turned to be a dull bit along a piece of steel. Again making some T nuts (Humm, could it be I shouldn't make T nuts?). Anyway, I never felt any back pressure on the crank. I was watching the mill, and it seemed to stop moving along the work, but I was still cranking. When I stepped back and looked, the column was jacked out of alignment. I am surprised at how easy it is to knock the column off alignment. I suspect that the very large surface on the joint, while providing a much more stable alining platform, is dissipating the load of the single screw to the point of not holding very well. This is compounded by the fact I put some Anti Seize compound on the face to prevent the rust that I cleaned off from returning. I've got to clean it up and restore an un-lubricated metal to metal joint. That should help a bit. I am still considering pinning the column, but only for restoring it to alignment and then remove the pin for use. Humm, might be good to set it up with pins at 15, 30, and 45 degrees on both sides. That would give a quick way to put the column over and then return it without too much effort. I think I'll use a #4 taper pin. I'll align the column at each increment and drill the pilot hole, using the first hole in the column as a drill guide. Then go back and align the column at each increment and this time ream the hole. I'll have to use a stop on the reamer so each hole is reamed to the same depth. Don ------- Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 14:44:55 -0000 From: "asrpas" Subject: Backlash fixup on taig mill Hi, I had a hard time fixing backlash on my taig mill. After tweaking with brass nut for many hours still I was getting fair bit amount of backlash. At the end I managed to find the problem was the "brass nut was loose in the table hole" and sadly Taig has peened the top of brass nut to make it look like tight rather replacing the whole nut. It was worn out after some time and was adding up the backlash error, eventually I put some Loctite around to make it tight and working like charm now. I thought to mention could save time for someone else. Thanks Rick ------- Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 20:41:30 -0000 From: "dhkoizumi" Subject: Re: Extender block for milling head --- In taigtoolsx~xxyahoogroups.com, "rrrevels" wrote: > Is it practical to add a 1" spacer block between the head mounting > dove tail block and Z rail of the mill to increase the radius of a > circle cut? I made the spacer block for the y axis and it works well > but I still need more clearance between the spindle and the verticle > support beam. TIA Russ Pensacola, Fl Russ, Taig makes this spacer -- part number 1250. Nick at Carter Tools also carries this part for $23.75. I'm currently using it on my Taig mill. Nick posted pictures of my setup on his website (just search under Pictures and David Koizumi). You can see the riser block on the mill. I've weighted the X and Y axes of the mill to eliminate physical backlash. I also compensated the Z axis for the weight of the motor (5 pounds exactly). This really smoothes out Z axis travel by eliminating the offset weight. There's enough uncompensated weight on the Z axis to eliminate backlash. For the money spent on this mill I get just insanely accurate repeatabilties. ------- Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 22:00:39 -0000 From: "Shawn Lammers" Subject: Re: Hand Wheels for Taig Mill "Felice Luftschein and Nicholas Carter" wrote: > The Sherline handwheels work well, but why do you need knobs? You > can just jog the axis under CNC control. There are times when I would rather just do a simple milling operation manually. The knobs are just too slow for this. Do you think the weight of the hand wheels would degrade the performance of the mill? I am worried that they may be too heavy and cause the steppers to stall under fast acceleration. Shawn -------- Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 14:09:12 -0800 From: "Felice Luftschein and Nicholas Carter" Subject: Re: Re: Hand Wheels for Taig Mill The Taig handcranks are too heavy and can cause a flywheel effect, of course you could rig up a way to just slip them on and off. The Sherline handwheels are lightweight. You could also just make your own handcranks from aluminum.... Check out our homepage www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 02:40:14 -0000 From: "eferg2001" Subject: Re: Hand Wheels for Taig Mill > Does anyone know where I can buy some hand wheels for the Taig CNC > Mill? The little dial knobs it comes with just are not cutting it. On my Taig CNC mill I adapted the stock hand cranks to the ends of my dual shaft stepper motors. I found some bronze bushings at the hardware store that were a perfect fit, then drilled and tapped the cranks for a set screw. I've done a lot of testing with a dial indicator, as well as a lot of milling, and never lost a step. I just don't see a flywheel effect. My 210 oz PacSci steppers stop where they should. I think it would take a bit more mass to make the stepper skip. Ed Ferguson ------- Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 18:00:42 -1000 (HST) From: benedictx~xxhawaii.rr.com Subject: Re: My Z is stuck!!! On Mon, 29 Nov 2004, smocksam wrote: > Well, I've got an issue with my CNC micromill and am not sure what the > deal is. My Z axis doesn't want to go up. It will move down smoothly, > but won't move "up" at all. I took the motor off and can rotate the > lead screw by hand, but it's VERY hard to do so. > My guess is I've got something caught in the leadscrew, however I could > be way off. I really need to get this thing up and running ASAP. Anyone > have any insight as to try? > How far do I want to take it apart before I get myself in trouble? > I've also adjusted the gibbs, but it doesn't seem to help any since the > problem is only in the "up" direction?? Quick question: If you grab the headstock and try to rock it back and forth, basically rotating it, does it move? I haven't had this happen on my mill, but I did have this happen on my shaper. It would stick going down, but move going up. I thought the gibs were too tight. Turns out they were too loose. The cross-slide was cocking when it moved up, making it bind. But it was smooth going down. Go figure. Best way to set your Z axis gibs: Remove the headstock from the dovetail and remove the leadscrew. Tony Jeffree showed me a neat way to do this. Loosen the screws that hold the leascrew bearing plate on, and use your CNC controller to jog the leascrew off the nut. At this point you have the Z ways and the Z carriage, but nothing else there. If it's too loose, you will be able to feel it move by hand. If it's too tight, it should be tough to move in both directions. Once your gibs are set, replace the leadscrew/motor assembly and replace the headstock. Any time you replace your headstock, it's worth taking the time to tram the Z column and to tram the headstock. These are separate things and can be set separately. (This can bite you in the butt, as I found out one time.) To tram the Z column, stick a square on your mill table and put a TDI on the Z slide. Run the Z slide up and down with the TDI touching the square. Any run-out should be apparent. If for any reason you don't trust your square, repeat the test with the square on the other side of the column. If you get identical runout, but in the opposite direction, your column's square and your square is not a 90.000 degree angle. (I used this trick to check my "square", which is just a toolmaker's vise stood up on end. Turns out it's good to better than half a thou across 4".) Once your column is trammed, you can tram the headstock. Mount a TDI in the collet on the headstock and use it to sweep the mill table. Except where you hit the T-slots, you should be able to get the same reading all the way around the circle. Adjust the dovetail as needed. The reason I mention this is after setting my mill up after a move (which included adjusting the gibs on all three axes), I wound up in a condition where the Z column was out of square by several thou per inch, but the headstock was trammed true. What this meant was when I switched from an endmill to a drill bit, I'd get some gawdawful offset on my tool position. A little off the topic of the question, but if I can spare anyone the number of scrapped parts I generated during that time, all to the better. Tom ------- Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 13:42:20 -0500 From: "Tim Goldstein" Subject: Re: Re: 142 OZ. Steppers..enough for Taig Mill? A very confusing subject and usually answered by people that do not have experience with a vast array of configurations. I have personnally run everything from 114 oz in to 238 oz/in motors as well as half step, microstep, Xylotex, Gecko, API and various no name Japanese and Chinese drives. Have also used voltages from 24 - 60 VDC. Bottom line is a big motor is NOT a cure all. Here is my summary. When using motors that are appropriately matched to the drive and using a modern microstep driver (Different story with a half step drive) running at the same voltage you will get more RPM out of the motor with the smaller motor. As you move to larger motors (higher inductance) you will reach a point at which your maximum rapid will actually decrease. When looking at it from a realistic cutting speed the more powerful motor will have more thrust. By way of example, with a Xylotex drive, 30 VDC supply I get the following max reliable rapids on my 2019CR X and Y: 114 oz/in 24ipm 138 oz/in 54 ipm 214 oz/in 24 ipm (was a slightly higher inductance motor for the size) 238 oz/in 36 ipm The difference is at 10ipm cutting speed the smallest motor can probably only break a 1/8" end mill. The middle motor can probably snap a 3/16" end mill. The 214 motor can probably break a 1/4" end mill. and I thing the biggest could ruin a 3/8" end mill. I regularly cut 6061 aluminum with a Sherline headstock on my Taig using the 138 oz/in motors and take off .050" deep and the full width of a 3/8" end mill at 10 ipm without ever missing a step. Bottom line. Best all around performance with a Xylotex in my experience is when using motor in the mid 100 oz/in range. The bigger motor actually lowers the all around performance as the rapid speeds go down. Funny part is I have discussed this with some of the suppliers and we all agree what while the above is true it is easier to just sell the customers the big honking motors they want and not waste our time trying to convince them of reality. Tim [Denver, CO] Sherline & Taig products at Discount Taig 2019CR mills in stock for immediate shipment at 5% off list. Mach1 & DeskCNC with credit card ordering www.KTMarketing.com/order ------- Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 17:00:15 -0000 From: "danmauch" Subject: Re: 142 OZ. Steppers..enough for Taig Mill? Tim's answer is very good. There is one other factor that one should look at when buying a stepper motor. That is the speed torque curve for the motor. For instance I sell a brand of motor that has two motors rated at 157 oz in. When wired bipolar series one draws .7A and thus has high inductance. The other with the same torque wired the same way draws 2.1A but is low inductance. The difference on the speed curve is that the one that draws .7A has 22 oz in of torque at 10000 steps per second whereas the 2.1A motor has 45 oz in of torque at 10000 steps per second. Interestingly, both motors cost the same. Dan Camtronics Inc www.seanet.com/~dmauch ------- Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 04:26:15 -0000 From: "tbitz" Subject: My New Taig Mill bearing runout is 0.002" Hi folks, I'm new to the group. Just got my CNC ready Taig Mill and I'm setting things up. I put a dial indicator on a 1/4" HSS milling cutter in a 1/4" collet and measured a 0.002" run out just under the collet. Taig specs the bearing runout as 0.0004" max. I'm getting four times more? I tried another collet with a different shaft I machined on my lathe and got the same 0.002". Can this be fixed? On a positive note, I have got the table within 0.001" relative to 6" from the spindle. That seems good enough, I think. Thanks, Tony ------- Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 22:42:33 -0600 From: Gene Furr Subject: Re: My New Taig Mill bearing runout is 0.002" Tony, I had the same problem with new collets. If you will check you might see the slots are not clean out very good and that keeps them from clamping even. I would check the spindle run out with out a collet in it. Gene ------- Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 12:05:58 -0600 From: Gene Furr Subject: Re: Re: My New Taig Mill bearing runout is 0.002" >How do you check the spindle runout without any collet? I mean where do you >place the dial indicator, there isn't enough material to make contact. Tony Tony, It is close but put your dial indicator point inside the spindle where the collet goes. Gene ------- Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 22:55:49 -0500 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: My New Taig Mill bearing runout is 0.002" Hi Tony, I see some folks already mentioned cleaning the collets, which is good advice. You might gently run a fingertip over the perimeter of the collet checking for a burr on a slot, and also take a good look in the end of the spindle for any bits of crud. Double check the collet is clean inside as well, and that the slots are cut cleanly. 2 thou is pretty big, my lathe is pretty well used and has maybe a few tenths max with a collet. One gent who was new to Taig was having a runout problem, it seems he was mounting the collet backwards, so the flat face of the collet was going into the spindle. IIRC he was having quite a bit more runout than you, but it's been a while. Took a while to sort that one out, but figured tossing it out won't do harm and might be helpful :-) Cheers, Stan ------- Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 07:05:59 -0000 From: "timgoldstein" Subject: Re: Backlash adjustment --- In taigtoolsx~xxyahoogroups.com, "bitshird" wrote: > I've tried adjusting the nuts at the > end of the screws, it almost feels like the screws are slightly out > of round, they hit slight binds in different places, The Mill has > about 150 or maybe 200 hours cutting wax and a few hours cutting Aluminum. > what should the backlash be on a lightly used machine?? and how the > blazes can I get it there? .001 or .002" backlash on a conventional leadscrew ain't at all bad. The nuts at the ends of the leadscrews that hold on either the cranks or the motor coupler (depending if CNC or not) are NOT what you use to adjust the backlash. What you have done is overloaded the bearings in the thrust block assemble. Loosen those nuts back up and tighten them down just enough to very lightly load the bearings so there is no play or binding. What you need to adjust is the preload on the lead nuts. The nuts are slit lengthwise with 2 cap screws pinching them tigher and one that forces them back open. For the X axis I just undo the 2 capscrews that hold the plate on the right end of the table to it and slide the table off to the left. You can then access the nut to make your adjustment. For the Y I undo the same capscrews that hold the plate to the base on the from of the mill and pull the whole saddle and motor off the base. Flip it over and adjust away. Tim [Denver, CO] www.KTMarketing.com/order ------- Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 09:23:38 -0800 From: "Felice Luftschein and Nicholas Carter" Subject: Re: Re: Backlash adjustment 150 to 200 hours isn't exactly light use... I hope you maintained the mill during that time and made sure the slides were lubed - if not then you probably have some localized wear - additionally if the mill table only moved a couple of inches in the same spot (if you didn't make sure to move the workpieces around to equalize the wear) then you will probably have some local wear on the leadscrew. The upshot? .002 backlash on the Taig is well within acceptable limits and easily dealt with through the backlash compensation in your software. The less backlash, the more wear over time as well. Check out our homepage www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 22:58:00 -1000 (HST) From: benedict-listx~xxhawaii.rr.com Subject: Re: Minimum end mill size for use on Taig mill? On Fri, 28 Jan 2005, codeSuidae wrote: >> As far as coolants go, the best coolant by far is water. It won't let >> a part get over 100 deg C without boiling (which takes quite a bit of >> energy). > Sounds like I can just try water when I need it. I'd still look into getting some soluble oil to mix with it. Most of the parts that get soggy on the Taig are anodized aluminum, but there are still some steel bits that would benefit from the oil in the coolant. A gallon of a typical soluble oil from a place like Enco is about $35-45, but at the rate a home shop uses the stuff, a gallon can last for a decade or so. >> Funny you mention coolants! We've had a nice thread on flood and mist >> cooling systems recently. > I caught some of that, I'd be interested in seeing some pictures of your > setup. I'm not sure that I'll need anything with that kind of volume > any time soon, but it would be cool to see how you've got it configured. I'll take pictures this weekend and either post them to the taig photos list or send them to Nick. > These will be mostly one-offs. The idea is to set them up for good > looks rather than high performance, so the detailing is more critical. I > expect that they'll take me quite a bit of effort to produce, so not > many people would be willing to pay for them. Anyway, for me the > attraction of custom rims is that they are custom, nobody else has a set > just like 'em :) Know whatcha mean. I'd still like to make a really nice custom set for my XMod. > These will be more for the Bit Char-G/Zip Zap sized stuff, much lower > end than the Mini-Z, but with what appears to be a fairly wide user base > (its easy for people to get into a car that only costs 25 bucks). > Fortunately, since I don't have any desire to produce these in any kind > of volume its just that microscopic detail that I'm looking for. YIKES! Those things are TINY! Yeah, I can see why you'd need the microscopic tooling. Here's an idea for making really small tools: If you can stand to have non-vertical walls, v-tip cutters are a lot more robust than an end mill with the equivalent tip diameter. The most common V-tip cutters are 90 and 60 degree angle tips. But you can grind a V-tip cutter any way you want. A couple of people, like http://www.cnconabudget.com sell cutters with smaller angles, so you can get your walls closer to vertical and still have a pretty strong cutter. If you want to make your own, I've found a good source of 1/8" carbide stock are those 50-piece assortments you can get from Harbor Freight, Woodcraft, and practically anyone else. They're carbide regrinds from the PCB industry. The cutters themselves are good to have around, and when you snap one it becomes raw material for making v-tip cutters. Only catch is you have to use silicon carbide or diamond to grind the things. It's probably horrifically unprofessional of me to admit this, but I got a diamond cutoff wheel for a Dremel, chucked it in a flex shaft handpiece and mounted it on the compound on my lathe, and use that setup to grind custom cutters. The finish isn't as nice as you'd get from a fine silicon carbide wheel, but it works and can crank out a V-tip cutter in about ten minutes. > Thanks for the info, I've got an idea of what I should get for cutters > (I have a feeling I'll be breaking quite a few of them). I'll take > pictures if I manage to produce anything interesting CS Sounds like a plan. And I'll try to post info on the flood cooling setup I made. Tom -------- [NOTE TO FILE: Tom's coolant message is in Taig Modifications General file.] -------- Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 18:28:08 -0800 From: "Felice Luftschein and Nicholas Carter" Subject: Re: Cross Slide nut? [taigtools] "jdholbrook33" wrote: > In putting together my Taig lathe I am finding that the Crosslide > Screw Nut (100-25) is a very tight fit in the crosslide. In it's > present state it will not swivel or move in any way. > Is this normal or do I need to "adjust" it a little? I find that if you deburr the edge of the hole it goes into, and lightly sand the post with 600 grit sandpaper (no coarser) then it assembles better - you don't want the post loose in the hole or it will add to backlash, but by tweaking the fit you will get a better assembly and it will self compensate for small misalignments better. Taig says they just hammer it in with a soft face hammer, but given that it is my #1 service issue, I would say that it is a good idea to pay attention to it. While you are at it, lap the interface between the crosslide screw and the bearing block, and the dial and bearing block, that makes it much smoother as well. Check out our homepage www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 17:40:48 -0000 From: "jdholbrook33" Subject: Re: t-slot size for taig mill?? Tailor-made for the Taig. Have you looked at this setup? http://www.robitek.com/productsmillaccessories.htm ------- Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 10:59:35 -0700 From: "Derek" Subject: New Taig Tooling Plate I posted some pictures of the new Taig Tooling Plate I made. You can see them in the photo section of the Taigfiles group. This is a 5"x18"x.5" plate with T-slots and 10-32 tapped holes. It is also able to mount a Sherline Rotary table directly to the plate. [RUN NEXT 2 LINES TOGETHER, NO SPACE.] Derek ------- Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 22:23:49 -0600 From: "Kenneth Ferrell" Subject: Re: Re: HELP...X-Axis won't keep it's value On the newer style tapered gib, could someone define "tight" as in a relative value? Like wow much torque should be applied to the gib adjusting screws, or should they just be snug to the gib with perhaps 2 to 4 ft. pounds per screw < not hard to do with the supplied 5/32nd hex head wrench > or should the torque be more or less?? Of course these values would only pertain to the newer tapered gib machines, but would this torque value also be applicable to the Z column? Perhaps if someone could answer this question it would make adjusting the gibs a tad easier! My personal experience (which doesn't mean much) because I've only been working with my Taig for about 6 months, has led me to believe that over tightening the gib screws on the X or Z which are tapered, and are adjusted by the act of moving the tapered gib from end to end, that even once you get the X axis to slide with slight tension but no binding spots the by wrenching the screws to I would venture to say perhaps 8 to 10 FT.LBS. seems to distort the gibs and forces the gibs to become over tight, creating binds at the extreme ends of the table travel, so I wonder if the same holds true for the Z axis? I think this is where either one of the forum brains, or possibly a representative from Taig could offer some very helpful advice, because there are some of us who really need help. Same question about the preload bearings what's the difference between snug and tight, how much play should there be? There have been some excellent advisements on adjusting the lead screw / split nut, and the images posted on adjusting the column and X axis gibs have been fantastic and very helpful, if we could define specific values or even approximate values to TIGHT then I think this would give some of us newbie's a leg up on adjustments, IMHO Thanks Ken "bitshird" Ferrell ------- Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 10:40:27 +0000 From: Clive Foster Subject: Tightness of Gib Adjustment I don't think torque settings are going to be as big a help as might naively be expected. Trouble is the variation between bit loose, just right, and getting too tight is also covered by the variation in what might be called "gib stickiness" between mills in response to the adjustments. Due to manufacturing and fit variations on individual mills the gib to slide pinch response to a given torque on the adjuster will not be the same. Trying to adjust out a recurring problem is usually futile unless the recurrence is 'cos you are doing it wrong. Far better to get the magnifying glass out and look closely at everything to find the real cause. In my experience the only way to get a gib adjusted properly is to remove the feed-screws and do the job by hand, twisting to feel for play and pushing it backwards and forwards to locate when stiffness sets in. With any affordably priced machine it's usually worthwhile taking a very close look at the various fits and finishes involved in the gib region. Ideally the gib should sit exactly in its recess butting hard up against all the stop faces with no more than about 5 thous worth of clearance to take up from full loose to properly adjusted. The gib also needs to be stabilised against side movement with dowels or clamp bolts. Realistically you only get that level of quality out of the box on high priced, high accuracy machines but, assuming the basic slide-ways are accurate, you can fettle a more ordinary machine pretty close with a bit of time and care. Careful fitting will allow you to run the gibs with a much tighter adjustment setting and will let the machine run far longer between adjustment sessions. The tiny fitting discrepancies in a standard factory machine mean the the slides have to be run a bit looser to avoid tight spots and the like which means things "work" more causing the adjustments to go off. It's all rather precise. The difference between "economically viable for a factory" and "really well fettled" is about half the thickness of the oil film. Well into tenths thou territory here. So far my Taig is OK but when it needs adjustment it's getting the whole nine yards. Clive ------- Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 09:05:28 -0800 From: "Felice Luftschein and Nicholas Carter" Subject: Re: Emergency Belts... >>>I broke my last Mill belt >>>while waiting for the bunch I ordered from Taig to arrive... >>How do you manage to break one? I've had one running well over 2000 >>hours . Either too tight or misaligned maybe? Steve Blackmore > How tight is the belt supposed to be? Bruce I find about a 1/4" of deplection when pressed between the pulleys with one finger is about right. It is really important that both pulleys be algned so the grooves are in the same plane. I have noticed that where the lathe belts rarely break, I get some customers with broken mill belts, it may have something to do with the much higher speeds of the CNC mill. Check out our homepage www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 10:29:55 -0800 (GMT-08:00) From: Larry Richter Subject: RE: Emergency Belts... You're supposed to be able to deflect the belt inward with your finger and have them spring back when the drive is stopped and tensioned right. Hard to do for some people, since belts have a reputation for taking fingers off when they are touched when running, and there is that old story about wise cats being careful about hot stoves and cold stoves both. V-belts tighten themselves to something like the correct tension while running. The "V" shape of the belt cross section, the matching cross section of the pulley groove, and the pull of the motor and resistance of the load make the belt travel deeper down in the grooves and grip them by increased friction, if the surfaces are clean and right. The belt loop actually loosens on the return side because of this. It's a goal of adjustment to keep this looseness low enough that the return leg of the belt can't ride up the edge of the pulley and dismount itself, like a bicycle tire being pulled off a rim. This hurts the core of the belt, where cordage or fabric provides its strength. It also hurts belts to slip them this way when changing belt speeds, although with a fixed belt tensioning system like the Taig's people always have and always will, I expect, when in a hurry or they can't lay hands on the tool this second. Excess looseness damages the belt through slippage, heating, and frictional wear, once again like a tire. Extreme load that causes slippage does the same. The surplus dealers in Lincoln, Nebraska have another version of the 2 1/2 HP treadmill motor that we use, one that has a tightening quadrant on its motor mount, instead of the more conventional mounting plate. It looks something like the quadrant on an automobile alternator: http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=20050324120 11484&item=10-1783-A&catname=electric [run 2 lines together, no space] You don't have to send to Taig to get belts, by the way. The Taigs all use standard Gates belts. This brand is widely distributed in America, also world wide, and is probably copied in cross section and sizes where it has competition. The industrial supply company I bought the 3/4" bore lathe bearings from here carries Gates belts. BTW, those inch bore bearings are 2RS, which is the original lathe bearing specification, and good for whatever the original bearings would do. So a US measurement ER16 spindle can be built with off the shelf components by Steve Blackmore's method, though it's a question how long it would run at 10,000 RPM. ------- Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 23:03:58 +0000 From: Steve Blackmore Subject: Re: Emergency Belts... > though it's a question how long it would run at 10,000 RPM. The bearings I got are rated at 10,000 with grease, 18,000rpm oiled. Life depends on load, temperature, seal type etc. They've been well used now, with no adverse effect and would imagine they'll still be in use next year. The majority of my work is between 5-15Krpm. Even if they die after a year - at $15 and half an hour to change - so what ;) Steve Blackmore ------- Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 04:41:52 -1000 (HST) From: benedict-listx~xxhawaii.rr.com Subject: Re: ''TAIG MILL'' can it go the distance? On Tue, 12 Apr 2005, ballypatricktollymore wrote: > I am considering buying a ''PEATOL'' i/e ''TAIG''mill,cost and dire lack > of room being the main reasons. It will be used mainly in the manual > mode for building small stationary steam engines,castiron steel e.t.c. > Can you give your comments good or bad,as to the capabilities of the > machine,not the user o)),how good a finish tolerance can you achieve? > any serious vibration ,due to build design of the machine, any backlash > problems etc. I haven't used the manual version of the mill, but I'm quite happy with my CNC version. For what it's worth my mill uses the old-style dovetail ways on the Z axis. The newer mills use much beefier box ways. For small cutters I haven't found vibration to be a problem. If you drive the cutters too hard, flexure in the machine, tool, and holder can cause deviation of the cutter that'll throw your dimensions off. The fix I've used for this is to push a little hard while roughing and take light, slow cuts for the finishing pass. Doing this I can hold pretty good tolerances (+/- 0.001" isn't a problem.) The finish is largely good, but it depends on a lot of things: I use flood coolant now. On most plastics this'll make or break the surface finish. Aluminum wants some sort of cooling, but I've had good luck with flood and spray-bottle coolant. A slow feed rate on the finish pass can also help surface finish. I haven't really had a problem with end milling. Side milling can look a little ripply, but the surfaces still clean up pretty quickly, all things considered. Backlash on my mill was about 0.002" in each of the three axes when I got it. I haven't seen it degrade appreciably since I got it about four years ago. You can take that into account in most CNC software, so I haven't through much of it. This isn't a complete answer, but for most parts it works fine. If a 0.002" backlash looks to be a problem, there are a couple of DRO solutions you can use, especially if the parts are small. One I've had good luck with on my lathe is to use long travel dial indicators (2" is the biggest I've found in my price range.) Not sure how you'd mount them on the mill, but it should be doable. I was told not to trust dial indicators when used this way, so I went back and checked my setup with calipers, taking spot checks all along the range of travel. It came out to be good to within my ability to measure it. Not bad. I have found there are limits to the size of cutter you can use and the depth you can use them at. But that's true of any machine, regardless of size. It just depends on where things start to get dicey. On the Taig I can use a 0.250" cutter (sorry, heathen units), but I have to take a pretty shallow cut. I've done fly cutting, but not too much of it. With smaller cutters I can push pretty good depth and not get too much chatter. Tom ------- Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 22:14:03 -1000 (HST) From: benedict-listx~xxhawaii.rr.com Subject: Re: Sticking Table! On Thu, 28 Apr 2005, smocksam wrote: > I've had a taig CNC micromill for nearly a year now. > Over the past few months it's started to develop a problem that annoys > me to death and I can't seem to fix it. > There is one small spot in the X axis (about 5 inches in from the left > edge of the table) that the table will hang up. It wil be moving freely > and then sometimes when it moves across that area will snag and lock up. > I've taken the stepper off and when it does it you can't even turn the > table by hand. > some people have suggested that I've not got the gibbs adjusted > properly, but it seems if that was the case it would do it all the time > an all across the X axis, not just at one end of the table. Although > making ever so slight adjustments to the gibbs will free the table up > and let it slide again for several days until it decides to do it again. > Does anyone have any suggestions for what the problem may be? Or perhaps > I am adjusting the table incorrectly. Can someone point me to > instructions on the "proper" way to adjust the gibbs? I'm guessing it's either the gibs or the leadscrew, as others have suggested. Here's how I'd go about it: With the whole system put together, remove the two #10-32 bolts that hold the X-axis leadscrew bearing plate to the mill table. Jog the axis to basically unscrew the leadscrew from the table. If it still jams at the same place, it's a leadscrew/nut problem rather than a gib problem. If it comes out freely, continue to suspect the gibs/ways. With the leadscrew removed, go ahead and power off your controller. Now try to slide the table back and forth by hand. If the tight spot shows up here, it's a gibs/ways issue. If the table is tight all the way across but is unusually tight in this one spot, the gibs may have been out of whack for a while. If it only binds in this one spot, that suggests something funky with the ways rather than the gibs. As you said, an issue with the gibs usually shows up at more than one point across the range of travel. But if there's something up with the table itself, it'd show up in just that one place. Pull the table off. Examine every contact surface for wear. If the gibs are wearing only on one side or in the middle, that indicates a problem with the gibs. If you find scoring on the gibs or ways, that suggests something's wrong with the table. If you find scoring on the table, that suggests something's wrong with the gibs or ways. Clean everything very very thoroughly. A chunk of swarf in the wrong place could be doing this, so even if you don't find anything during initial examination, it doesn't rule out jamming. With everything clean, put the table back in and slide it back and forth by hand. See if you still feel the tight spot. See if it's tight everywhere. If either of these happens, adjust the gibs. Not sure what the mill looks like these days, but it used to be that the X axis gib screws were two screws in one. To adjust, remove the socket head cap screws at the front of the saddle. Underneath these are socket head set screws that actually adjust the X-axis gib. The cap screws are just to lock them in place. Since you're already seeing binding, back out the screws until the table travels freely. Guranteed things are too loose at this stage. Grab either end of the table and try to rock it back and forth. You should get a "tic-toc" noise. Adjusting the gibs is a balancing act between these two conditions. You want them tight enough so there's no rocking action at all, but you also want them loose enough that the table doesn't bind. You can go whole-hog and put dial indicators on the table to find out how much play there is in the table, but I basically adjust mine until there's just a little drag and the pressure on the screws is about even. Not very scientific, I know. Slide the table back and forth by hand again and see if there are any tight spots. Keep in mind that tight spots will show up over time. If the mill is used primarily in one part of its range of travel, you'll get a loose spot there as the parts wear in. Adjusting the gibs to take up this slack means it'll be tight everywhere else. Typically this shows up in the middle of the range of travel for a mill, and toward the headstock for a lathe. In another thread posted earlier this month, someone mentioned the practice of moving your vise around the mill table, always putting it in a different place. This does a pretty good job of evening out the wear on the sliding parts of the mill. I do this at work as well as at home. It's not a cure-all, though, and the wear will still happen. But it's not a bad practice. If your mill is only a year old, the wear really shouldn't be that bad. I've had mine for about four and a half years now, and I can still get good motion across the whole range of travel in X. I can feel where the wear is starting, but it's nothing the motors would even notice. Once you're satisfied with the adjustment on the gibs, take the table back out and lubricate all the sliding surfaces. This will change the dynamics of the system and make the table feel tighter. Really gibs should be adjusted with any lubrication in place, kinda like you should get sized for shoes with whatever socks you intend to wear with them. But I've had problems with this on the Taig because it tends to make things feel better than they are. I've gone through a session only to find my table is too tight. But keep this in mind. You may need to make small adjustments after lubrication. For lubes there are a number of choices. Way oil is always a good choice since it's designed for the purpose. I use a synthetic grease made by SuperLube. Normally grease on machine ways isn't such a good idea because it does such a good job of collecting swarf. But my mill ways are completely covered and I haven't found this to be a problem. I don't do this on my lathe bed, though, because it does collect swarf there. For that I use oil. If this doesn't fix the problem in your X axis, let us know. Tom ------- Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 12:04:42 -0700 From: "Larry Richter" Subject: Re: Sticking Table! [NOTE: this approach may help other machines.] Everything about precision lives by making a physical embodiment of the theoretical concepts of flatness and squareness which nature so despises. The practical meaning of that is that there is probably something bent, scored, embedded, or behind one of the surfaces of the gibs or the lead screw or nut in a place related to the point where the sticking occurs. The other possibility is that there is some instance of direct physical blockage, interference, that is intermittent. Can't think what. The machine produces an extremely strong variety of small trash as a by-product. I'd be taking the table apart and looking for it behind the gibs, on the gibs, in the lead screw thread, just something unusually wrong somewhere. Small aberrations can produce terrific wedging friction, we stop trucks and trains with it. Does it stick more often or exclusively while traveling in one particular direction? ------- Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 23:34:37 -1000 (HST) From: benedict-listx~xxhawaii.rr.com Subject: Re: Sticking Table! On Thu, 28 Apr 2005, Larry Richter wrote: > Hah! Tom had it completely covered. Not with your flair for language, though. That's one of the better descriptions I've seen of the dependency of precision tools on close contact and plane surfaces. It's a keeper. Tom ------- Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 09:35:48 -0700 From: "Felice Luftschein and Nicholas Carter" Subject: Re: Re: Sticking Table! > Actually it sticks when moving the table to the left. > Does that give any clues? Yes, that generally means that the gib is shifting. Check out our homepage www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 10:16:17 -0700 From: "Felice Luftschein and Nicholas Carter" Subject: Re: Re: Sticking Table! (PICS!) > Alright, so I pulled the table off. > I noticed that the brass gib was moved almost completely to the left > side of the table. It didn't seem like this was correct, but I'm no expert! > Upon further inspection I found that the screw on the front of the > mill was loose. > I'm thinking that the screw is supposed to hold the gib in place which > it's definitely not doing and allowing things to bind. That screw locks the table, that is all it does. The gib is adjusted by the two screws at either end. With the center screw tightenend you cannot adjust the gibs. You should lightly file/stone the burr out of the way, in all probability the table was locked at some point when you tried to adjust it. Look here for a diagram explaining the gib adjustment http://www.cartertools.com/millset.html down at the bottom of that page. Both screws at the end need to be tight once the gib is positioned correctly. Check out our homepage www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 02:48:49 -0000 From: "dberndt2004" Subject: Warped Table? I was tramming my mill today and I noticed that the runout near the bearing block side of my Y axis has more runout then anywhere else on the table. After taking readings at various places across the table running the dial indicator across the bare table or a parallel bars resulted in the discovery that across the width of the table (traversing the Y axis) I have a runout of 4 thou in on the left 2/3rds of the table. And on the right 1/3rd of the table, nearest the bearing block it gradually gets worses all the way up to .007". Now since these numbers are just across the 3.5" wide table, that's pretty terrible imo. More then .001"/inch even at the good spots. So I took the table off and set a parallel across the top of the gib/ whatever the piece across from the gib should be called and measured the runout on the Y traverse and I came up with ~.001"/inch of travel again. So It seems that the my casting may not be quite right which accounts for the error in most of the table, but still part of my table appears to be warped. Any thoughts on how to correct this, what can be done, etc? Dave ------- Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 21:32:16 -0700 From: Don Rogers Subject: Re:Warped Table Dave, there are a few possibilities. First, and easiest to fix is that the top of the table isn't flat. If you have a piece of flat stock to sacrifice, bolt it down to the table and take a cleanup cut on the full surface. Then scan the surface with your indicator again. If it is just an uneven table surface, the scan of the cleaned up surface of the flat stock will read zero variance. If you still see the problem, then it is in the ways and you have some more work to do. At this point, take everything apart and look for blems, dents, dings, dirt, etc on the ways. Look over both the X and Y ways. If you don't see anything out of whack here, then take a look at my file in the Taigfiles group on aligning the mill. I had some very strange readings, but when you really looked what they were saying the problem was really easy to fix. Just remember that it's really hard to fix something that isn't broke. Just make sure your are trying to fix a problem, not the symptom. You can fix the first, but not the second. You will usually introduce more problems chasing the symptoms. Numbers like you are seeing are way out of what you would expect. To me, this would indicate damage or dirt on the ways. The table is usually very flat and stable. Look under the TaigFiles group, Files, Taig-column.pdf. This might help. Keep us posted. Don ------- Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 13:30:04 -0500 From: codeSuidae Subject: Mill Z-axis cutting direction problem? On my Taig CNC mill I've noticed that if I make a cut with the Y axis moving away from the column the Z axis will lift up and out when the cutting force is high. Likewise, if I attempt to plunge cut with force greater than what the weight of the spindle provides the Z axis will lift up and out. At the tool the movement can be up to 1/8 to 1/4 inch. Is this normal, or is my Z axis improperly adjusted? If this is normal, is it necessary to always consider the direction and cutting force required when planning tool paths? thanks cs ------- Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 12:14:25 -0700 From: "Felice Luftschein and Nicholas Carter" Subject: Re: Mill Z-axis cutting direction problem? It sounds like the z-axis isn't adjusted. I'm assuming you have the newer box way z-axis? Sounds like the gib for the middle box way is fine as you aren't noticing any twist in the x axis. So that leaves the two clamps on either side that hold the z-axis to the boxway. You need these to grip the z-slide to the boxway. Try slacking off the side screws and tightening up the center front screw until a little tight then slack off a bit, then lock the sides. The z-axis should slide down on it's own weight but not deflect outwards. If you can, before adjusting, insert a feeler gage into the gap between the back of the boxway and the clamps on either side, and let us know what clearance you have. The z-axis will move up by the amount of backlash in the z-axis screw, but only if you exceed the cutting capacity of the tool in the spindle - in other words you want the force of the weight of the headstock to not be exceeded by the force of milling downwards. What sort of feedrate, spindle speed and diameter tool are you using? It is a good idea to consider direction and cutting forces when planning toolpaths, generally speaking you want to conventionally mill, not climb mill and never feed faster than a given tool can cut and clear chips. Check out our homepage www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- NOTE TO FILE: Some of the information in the earlier part of this next thread was more generic about advantages of ER collets, so all those messages can be found in the Cutters, Collets, and Arbors text file. ------- Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:18:13 -0000 From: "yotie888" Subject: Re: ER 16 collet inquiry In taigtoolsx~xxyahoogroups.com, "jeffjouett" wrote: > I'm new to this forum and don't even have a Taig mill yet though I > plan to order one within the next couple of weeks. I see that many > have converted their mills to use an er16 collet. What is the > advantage of doing this? I just received an email from Taig about their new ER-16 collet. They now offer the er-16 spindle with 3/8" collet for $60.00 and the er-16 spindle with 3/8" collet assemblied into a new headstock for $100.00. Or since you haven't ordered your mill yet, make sure you get it with the er-16 option and you will be set. ------- Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 10:21:55 -0700 From: "Felice Luftschein and Nicholas Carter" Subject: Re: Re: ER 16 collet inquiry Taig gave me the "details" "We now are offering the ER16 spindle as an option. The Spindle alone is 60.00 (with a 3/8 collet). A new headstock with the ER spindle in it is 100.00 with a 3/8 collet. The spindle is hardened and uses the same bearings and headstock housing as the original." Check out our homepage www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 19:30:30 -0000 From: "timgoldstein" Subject: ER16 Upgrade Talked to Taig yesterday about the new ER16 spindle and it made me realize some things I had not thought about. The only thing that fits it is ER16 collets. So if you currently use a flycutter, end mill holders for easy tool changes, drill chuck, slitting saws, grinding wheels, blank arbors, etc you can NOT use them with the ER16 spindle. They told me that many people don't seem to realize this. Makes me think that what people may want to do is buy a complete ER16 headstock so you can change from standard Taig to ER16 as needed. Tim [Denver, CO] www.KTMarketing.com/order ------- Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 14:10:53 -0600 From: "Tim Goldstein" Subject: Re: Re: ER16 Upgrade >>Keep in mind that with a full ER collet set you can hold any drill bit that the drill chuck can...<< But a full ER collet set is about $180 for a cheapy and $300 for a good one. And they usually start out at 1/16" so smaller drills are still a problem. A drill arbor and matching chuck for about $20 total to go on the standard spindle is pretty appealing. Don't get me wrong, I use both so it is not that I am against the ER16 stuff. Just pointing out that it is not necessarily the best solution for all people. Tim [Denver, CO] ------- Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 20:28:25 -0000 From: "Jim Knighton" Subject: Re: ER16 Upgrade > Just following your guide here to understand what you've made. > I didn't find an ETM ER20 collet chuck with 3/4 stub at MSC. I did see > a ETM ER20 collet extension with 3/4 stub. > Here is the place I was looking: http://tinyurl.com/b4zvc > How do you cut off the hardened stub? Do you use an abrasive disc type > saw for this? Also, is a press fit is all that is needed to keep the > collet seated in the adapter? Thanks, Lynn Lynn, on the MSC catalog page you referenced in the URL look in the upper- most right hand corner. The chuck I purchased is the straight shank, 3/4" diameter 4" ER20 listed in that box. I originally planned to do a spindle replacement - that is why I used the 4" version instead of the less expensive 2.5". Since I only kept 5/8" of the shank, the shorter version is the better starting point. I cut the shank using a pneumatic die grinder with a 3" abrasive wheel. I held the ER20 chuck in my lathe's 3-jaw chuck, covered the ways with a towel, ran the spindle at a comfortably slow speed, and had at it with the grinder. Sparks flew everywhere, but it was a totally uneventful exercise that lasted only a couple of minutes. I then used a normal grinding wheel in the same grinder to dress the end, grind a slight chamfer, etc. When I was finished (total time - abt 5 min) the chuck looked like it came factory with a 5/8" shank. For what it's worth, I think the shank is high tensile steel, but not hardened. Regarding the fit, if you get the bore "just right" then a press fit is all that is needed. In fact, I used a couple drops of red locktite to make sure it never moves on me. I think this as this as a security measure, not as a necessity. I hope this helps. Jim ------- Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 20:39:44 -0000 From: "Jim Knighton" Subject: Re: ER16 Upgrade Tim: Well said, and I concur with your comments. Regarding the smaller drills, I have a set of fractional and numbered mini drills - all with 1/8" shanks. These drills are all 1.5" long and are solid carbide. As you might expect, in the small sizes they are brittle and consequently they work best when held by collets and run at high speed. There is enough inaccuracy in the small jacobs chucks that the smallest sizes will easily break - and this as expensive as it is frustrating. To be sure, I have jacobs type chucks all over the place, but when I need precision and accuracy I reach for the midget ER20. To be sure, this isn't the "low cost" approach to solving the problem, but neither is an Albrecht chuck, especially if it turns out to be no more accurate and precise than the less expensive stuff. For a lot of people the standard Taig or Sherline methods and accessories work just fine. They did for me for a long time. For those who need more precision than those methods allow, as was the case in my shop, the midget ER20/16/11/whatever provides a viable alternative. Regards, Jim ------- Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 15:19:32 -0700 From: "Felice Luftschein and Nicholas Carter" Subject: Re: Re: ER16 Upgrade > Does this also mean then that the three and four jaw chucks will not work > on the ER16 spindle? Don Correct, the ER spindle only holds ER collets, it does not have the 3/4"-16 thread on the OD. I suspect that a lot of people will end up with two headstocks, switching them out as work requires... ------- Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 23:36:50 +0100 From: Clive Foster Subject: Re: ER16 Upgrade >> How do the DIY ER spindle folk cope? > Unlike the Taig version, my ER spindle has a stop inside - tools can be > replaced in collets to repeatable length offset. Drills go straight in > no problem - no chuck needed and more Z "headroom". When I get around to > it (if needed) I'll make a 3/4x16 spindle nose with a 10mm shank to fit > in a collet. I can then screw my fly cutter and slitting saw holder on > that. Thinking about it - Probably just as easy to make new ones > that thread on the ER collet nose! Steve Blackmore So bottom line is that in practice using a plain shank held in the ER collet works fine for any special tooling adapters. Hence, if you have stocks of stuff which screws onto the standard nose then a simple plain shanked duplicate is the way to go. Theoretically its a bad thing to hold adapters in a collet. Going by the book adapters should be on tapers and collets are only used to directly hold tooling. Hafta say that my thinking is bigger machine biased and I have trouble seeing clearly when you need to follow the book and when er "less correct" techniques are, in practice, perfectly acceptable with a Taig. Collets will always be better than a chuck when holding drills but swopping collets for centre, pilot and finish size drilling gets old real quick especially if the job in question has a possel of holes to do. ER collets aren't quick to change or use, almost seems worth standardising on a size of collet to use with drills and making drill holders to suit as and when needed. Eventually you will have a full set. But that approach opens up problems of its own. At least chucks cover the range in one hit and, especially if its a hand tightened Albretch, change-over is fast. Clive ------- Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 23:36:55 -0000 From: "Jim Knighton" Subject: Re: ER16 Upgrade If you want to use both ER collets and normal chucks/accessories, you need to have a second hadstock as Nick suggests, use a thread on chuck like mine, or machine a stub spindle that fits in the ER chuck as per Steve's idea. These seem to be the significant "normal" variations on this theme. There is yet another idea that I'm working on that would work for the lathe, not the mill. This notion uses an ER32 collet chuck for a spindle in a new headstock machined from scratch. ER32 is big enough that you can hold an unmodified Taig spindle in a collet. It will also hold a shortened Sherline spindle as well. Ergo, any spindle nose at any time and the ability to use any spindle mounted accessory from either Sherline or Taig without adapters, spacers, etc. While this is the most flexible and adaptable alternative, it is also the most expensive and requires that you build a whole new headstock from scratch. I've got most of the parts to do this, but not all of them. I'll let you know when it's done. Jim ------- Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 10:32:03 +0100 From: Steve Blackmore Subject: Re: Re: ER16 Upgrade >Collets will always be better than a chuck when holding drills but >swopping collets for centre, pilot and finish size drilling gets old >real quick especially if the job in question has a possel of holes to do. Three drills to do one hole?? I routinely CNC to final size 1 drill ;) I do see what you mean though, it's that not much slower though and on larger holes I drill all the pilots first, change once and then re-drill them all again. No slower than using a keyed chuck for the same collet size. Steve Blackmore ------- Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 19:10:29 -0000 From: "skerbitz" Subject: ER-32 on Taig Mill When Terry posted his info about his ER-20 upgarde to the Taig, I contacted him and we went back and forth about how he accomplished this (Thanks Terry !) I wanted to go one step further and go to ER-32 which was entirely possible, but in the end I shelved the idea because I am in a small apartment, and dont have access to much else in the way of machinery (no lathe). In the end, I ordered a ER-32 attachement from Beall and have been very surprised at how well it has worked out. Up until now, most of my milling has been at around 1 to 2 IPM and DOC (depth of cut) about .01 to .02 (I can see some of you rolling your eyes already :) I can't use fluid where I'm at and I can't make very much noise as the wife frowns on it severely. When I ordered the Beall, I also bought a set of ER collets (I think 11 of them for $50) from Ebay. I bought large end mills to go with the setup too (up to 3/4"). One of my reasons for all this was that I wanted to develop some fixturing that uses locator pins (from Carr Lane) and the only came in bigger sizes. So yesterday the last pieces came and I cleaned it all up and fired it up. With the new setup it's like a knife thru butter almost. I ran a 1/2" endmill thru some Al and after a few slow speed passes ran up to my mill's rapid speed : 4 ipm zip zip zip. Lovely finish, and way less noise than with the standard Taig setup. I still have some more work to do before I get back to making stuff again, but I have been shocked at how well this all worked out. Now I just need a bigger motor on the Z thanks to the extra weight from the Beall, collets and bigger end mill. Anyways, I have gotten lots of info from this list, so I thought I would share my experience for those interested. Thanks, Matt ------- Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 11:21:24 -0700 From: "Felice Luftschein and Nicholas Carter" Subject: ER collets, a note from Taig The guys at Taig want me to make sure that proper chucking practice is understood. Place the collet in the nut so the little snap ring engages the collet groove, then put the collet and nut onto the spindle. You don't need excessive clamping force as it will possibly break the snap ring. Apparently several people have had problems with it by not understanding how it's supposed to be done. Check out our homepage www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 23:03:36 -0700 From: "Felice Luftschein and Nicholas Carter" Subject: Quick notes on the new ER spindle I finally received my ER spindles today. I ordered one headstock and one spindle cartridge. Some quick notes, I'll run some tests later (much later) The closer nut does have an eccentric ring for grabbing the collet lip to extract. The cartridge spacer only has one, instead of two tapped holes for retaining the old style split housing, but it should work fine. Not sure why they only are using one tapped hole now, or any as the new headstock is just a shrink fit on the cartridge. The spindle seems to stick out about 1/8"-1/4" more than the old one. I'll measure later. It looks really cool to have a 3/8" endmill in a collet on the Taig with very little protrusion. Check out our homepage www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:19:26 -0700 From: Don Rogers Subject: Re: Adjustable leadscrew nuts >I ended up with an X >axis that is still stiffer to turn than I would like it to be and >still appeared to have about 0.0025" of backlash. Alex, there are two parts to the adjustment and you need to do them separately to get the best fit. If your axis is stiff, something isn't quite right. The first step is to adjust the lead screw bearings, before the screw is in the nut. Tighten the nut until you feels drag from the bearings. While holding the bearing plate in one hand, give the nut a sharp whack with a small rubber, leather, or plastic mallet. This settles the bearings into place. Check that the drag is still there when turning, If not tighten just a bit more and give it another whack. When the tightness is still there after whacking the nut, you are just a tad to tight. Loosen up the nut a couple degrees. Whack the nut again. Now the screw should turn in the bearings freely, but have no noticeable end play. This works for either the manual mill, or the CNC. Just translate crank to coupling for the CNC version. Oh yes, when installing the bearing plate, screw the leadscrew in so the nut is as close to the bearing as possible before tightening down the bearing plate. If the plate isn't aligned, you are fighting a wedge when you screw nut closer to the plate. It is possible to be off by enough to really cause some binding. Now you can set the adjustable leadscrew nut. Just make sure the nut is fully on the screw before making any adjustments. With this, tighten to a slight drag and the back off slightly. If you machine has been used a lot, you may have a worn area in the screw, so check it full travel. You don't want it jamming on the fat spot One last thing that will give you end play/ backlash even when the two steps above are correct is a loose fit of the nut to the table or cross slide. If I remember, they are just a very slight press fit. Anymore clearance than that will result in backlash. Don PS. Make sure your gibs are adjusted correctly also. ------- Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 23:56:09 +0100 From: Steve Blackmore Subject: Re: Mill belt tension? >Also, is there a better way to mount the motor to make moving the belt >to change the spindle speed? The stock configuration is pretty cheesy. >Maybe some kind of a spring-loaded rig that sets the right tension and >that can be adjusted just by pusing the motor in and moving the belt? Spring loaded "rigs" don't work well. Any vibration induces oscillations which play havoc with the tension. Look at any decent machine that uses belts - they are fixed. Even "self tensioners" on cars are so stiff as to do nothing but take up any slight adjustment as the belt stretches. The stock configuration works fine, if the pulleys are aligned. Use a ruler rather than your eye. Once the vertical alignment is right the belt only needs to be tight enough so it doesn't slip under normal conditions. Steve Blackmore ------- Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 13:23:35 -0700 From: "Felice Luftschein and Nicholas Carter" Subject: More ER spindle info. I talked to Taig today. They are pretty much out of ER collets until September/October so it looks like Enco etc is the way to go. Anyone know who has the lowest price on ER-16 collets? The new ER spindles are pretty accurate, I could only measure a few tenths runout and some of that may have been my pin gage. If you have the older clamshell housing it is best to upgrade to a complete headstock. The spindle cartridge only has one tapped hole in the spacer instead of the two required. If you have the new housing then you remove the one retaining screw (underside of the housing) and heat the housing gently. I haven't done it yet (new baby in the house - not much time right now) but will soon. I have yet to test cutting as well. Check out our homepage www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 02:21:16 -0000 From: "Michael Gamber" Subject: Re: More ER spindle info. I HIGHLY recommend this company. They have "on-size" collets that will "grip" standard size tooling. I have ordered from them and they have great customer service. [run next two lines together with no space] http://www.usshoptools.com/current_year/all_products/2005_06_pdf/PGS_1 55_157.pdf ------- Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 09:33:47 -1000 (HST) From: benedict-listx~xxhawaii.rr.com Subject: Re: Re: taig mills On Wed, 31 Aug 2005, tom wrote: > i was wondering if there are locks on all the axis, and what the > largest cutter you would use and not feel like you were hurting the > machine? thanks, tom There are, but I don't tend to use locks since mine's a CNC mill. With the original 1/10 HP motor I couldn't use much bigger than a 1/4" mill with any respectable depth of cut. Ok, I somewhat take this back. I have used a flycutter with it with good results. You just need to feed slowly and take shallow cuts, as with any fly cutter. After popping a larger motor onto it, a 1/4" mill digs through material quite happily. I could probably use a larger mill but haven't really had call to. Most of what I do is small. In regards to hurting the machine, it'd take a lot to do that. There are some areas the Taig will let go before anything really goes bad. One is at the handwheel or motor for the axis you're driving. I've got 200 oz-in motors on my mill. The times I've dug in a tool and stalled the spindle the axis has stalled before too much damage is done. (On end mills smaller than 1/4" I'd expect the end mill would give before the axis motor will.) Cranking by hand, you should be able to feel it way before it gets to the point of damaging the machine. The other place the mill will let go before damaging itself is the joint between the base and the column. If a larger tool digs in, the column will swing out of true before the mill really damages itself. Basically any time I dig in a tool and stall things I'll check the column to make sure I haven't knocked it out of square. I think I've only really knocked it around a couple of times. For the most part the machine just takes it in stride. Tom ------- Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 19:02:51 +0100 From: Clive Foster Subject: Re: My first questions >> Hi Nick, >> Again, thank you for the info. and advice. >> I quit smoking 3 months ago , but it seems I'll go back, so I can get >> some rolling papers :). >> In your website ,there is picture showing how to set the mill with >> the dial indicator. there is a part that attaches the dial >> indicator to the spindle. where can I get this holder? > The indicator holder is here: > http://www.cartertools.com/fmsbmb.html#ihwa > You can also use a bent rod in a collet in the spindle and a clamp > (usually indicators can be had with a few clamps when you buy them), or > sometimes they have a stem that swivels that can be used... > combelis wrote: An indicator on a flat base permanent magnet. Oh Yuck! (Sorry Nick). Probably not the best way and a hanging offence where I learnt to do things, especially pointing down from a spindle. Although theoretically it can work well the surface it's stuck to needs to be flat beyond reproach and very clean if you are to have any chance of a reliable stick. Sliding the indicator gently into touch with the surface is pretty much a no-no too and those ball adjusters rarely work well enough, usually being either too tight or too loose. The magnet will pick up every bit of ferrous swarf in range too so handling it becomes an interesting experience, especially when you try to get the stuff off. If you must use a permanent magnet anywhere near a machine tool wrap it in thin cling film first so the swarf comes away when you unwrap it (OK we could clean down properly first but this is the real world not HSE fantasy land). If you are gonna use a mag base get one of the proper ones with Vee and flat sides and an on-off switch. The indicator holding variety come with a post in the middle, a carrier rod with a screw adjustable bend and nice screw clamps that you can snug up to taste. For many applications its hard to beat gravity stabilisation with an nice hefty lump of metal as a base. The nicest spindle mount holders consist of a pin with a horizontal dovetail slide (mine is about 3 inches long) along which the indicator carrier slides. The indicator itself is held in a pivoting clamp. Its very easy to slide things into position. Alternatively there are inexpensive sets containing a shaft with and adjustable grip ball holding receptacle and several ball ended "thingies" to fit it. Usual complement is a pointed rod, an indicator holder (or two), a flick over barrel ended edge finder and a ball ended edge finder. The barrel ended flick over edge finder is a fascinating and useful device which flips sideways in very repeatable way when an edge pushes it out of true. Mine has a nominal 0.1 inch diameter barrel and flips once its been moves a thou out of true. Hence, once its flipped, I know the spindle is 0.0495 from the edge. Pointer is, of course, used to pick up marked out hole centres once you have milked it to run true. (A bit less inclined to go berserk that the old fashioned sticky pin.) Trick with cigarette paper is to grip it between cutter and work tight enough so that there is a smooth resistance when you pull it out but not so tight that the paper tears. You will soon get the feel, better than half thou accuracy is easy. Do remember that a DTI is a comparator not a measuring instrument. Top quality ones may make a pretty fair fist of measuring but the ones we can afford are unlikely to. The lever type ones, like that shown in Nicks link, are more versatile than the plunger type. For some jobs a dual dial one makes life much easier but for others the extra dial gets in the way. Lastly a thou is very small so you need firm mounts for accurate results. The measuring tip can easily be approaching 6" from the holding base so an infinitesimal amount of spring in the mounting system can make a measurable error. Plunger types have to have clearance to work at all so its important that you arrange things so the forces are properly aligned with the plunger. Officially plunger types should only be used as a thickness comparator and should be mounted on a solid base to keep things in line. In the real world you can do lots more provided you remember the limitations. Clive ------- Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 11:12:59 -0700 From: Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein Subject: Re: Re: My first questions I agree about magnets and swarf! The indicator mount comes with a 1/4" shank piece that has a ground surface the diameter of the magnet, it actually works pretty well. I do think that one should get a test indicator kit with all the clamps and swivels, etc as it is ultimately more versatile. ------- Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 20:52:02 -0000 From: "combelis" Subject: Re: My first questions Paul, thanks for the "heads up" . it is a nice thing to have. Clive, thank you for your detailed answer and tips. Let's see if I've got it right: if I want to tram my mill, I mount the magnet on my spindle, clamp the test indicator so it touches the right side of my table. Then what? How do I get a reading for the left side of the table? Do I have to jog the table all the way to the left? And what is the difference between a dial indicator , and a dial test indicator? thanks, Asi ------- Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 15:25:38 -0700 From: "Paul W. Chamberlain" Subject: Re: Re: My first questions You're welcome! I'll pipe in on the tramming... The reason for tramming is to assure the arc of a cutter is "flat" or parallel to the table. Most of my cutting is along the X-axis. If the spindle is off along the X-axis, it will leave a dished or concave cut. Additionally, only the leading or trailing edge of the cutter's arc will be cutting. If the spindle is off along the Y-axis, there will be noticeable "steps" between multiple cutter paths. There will always be visible lines, but you shouldn't be able to feel the line with your fingernail. The column is the source of tramming adjustment, but you are really tramming the spindle axis. The indicator should be held in the spindle with a chuck or collet. The DTI holder should be long enough to reach as far out on the X-axis as possible, without hitting the column if you should rotate it around back (not necessary, but Mr. Murphy lives with some of us). I started with one of those Asian $29.95 DTI's plus a dovetail clamp for round rod mounting, I think another $12 or so. I made my own holder/arm out of a couple of pieces of CRS rod. One piece was 1/2" in my case, but could be 3/8", to fit in the chuck or collet... about 3" long. Probably shorter for the Taig. I crossed drilled the end for a slip fit for the smaller rod (mine was 5/16" x 6"), kinda like the handle on a chuck key. Then I drilled and tapped the end of the first piece for a setscrew to hold the smaller rod in place. I turned the end of the smaller rod to match the dovetail clamp. I keep the DTI in its case except for use, but it's quick to put together. This homemade holder is handy for several measurements, from directly under the spindle, out to tramming width. I built it for my Asian MiniMill, but used it many times on the FADAL's at the last shop I worked in. It's easier to tram if there's a smooth surface on the table, rather than trying to measure over the T-slots. I have an accurate set of 1/2" x 6" parallels I use, but a pair of 1-2-3 blocks, without holes, should work well for under $15. I've heard several references to using an old truck bearing race for a full circular flat surface, but I didn't have any laying around here. I have photos of my holder showing the parts, and in use, available if there is any interest. Since those years, I scored a mint Starrett "Last Word" set with all the accessories on eBay for about a third of new price. I use it now for most of my DTI needs. Paul, Central OR ------- Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 08:39:22 -0700 From: "Paul W. Chamberlain" Subject: Re: Re: My first questions Me again... It is also important that the spindle's axis is parallel to the Z-axis travel. The tramming setup assures the cutter arc is parallel to the X-Y plane, but if the spindle is not parallel to the Z-axis, the X-Y tool position would drift with Z height change. Probably a minute amount, but it would be there. I've seen the procedure for checking / aligning the headstock to the column, but I don't recall where at the moment. Paul, Central OR ------- NOTE TO FILE: There are mill tramming instructions in the various mill help files here. See also Sherline Mill Quirks or Tips. And also Nick Carter's site specifically for the Taig. ------- Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 20:01:21 +0100 From: Clive Foster Subject: Re: My first questions Asi: Setting up a machine sounds much harder when described than it is in practice. Like most things which require patience, logical thinking and common sense paper descriptions seem totally OTT once you have got the hang of wha'ts going on. Starting at the beginning the object of tramming is to get the spindle, and therefore the cutting tool, "exactly" perpendicular to the table over all angles of a 360 degree tool sweep and over the full vertical movement of the head. How accurate "exactly" is depends on the class of work you intend to do, how much patience you have and the constructional quality of the machine. I guess that for most people a coupla thou or less TIR (Total Indicated Run-out) on a Taig is good enuf. Consider doing the long axis. Fix the indicator holder in the spindle, preferably with a collet rather than a chuck, with the indicator a suitable radius off centre. With the table central and the arm holding the indicator aligned along the long axis of the table adjust things so the indicator dial shows a sensible reading, usually best to start close to mid travel. Then swing through 180 degrees and, if the X axis alignment is right, it will show the same reading on the other side. If it doesn't adjust things until they are close enough. The TIR error is the indicator movement between the two sides. So if you have a lever type indicator that reads + 5 thou on one side and - 5 thou the other the TIR is 10 thou. Don't forget that the further away the indicator is from the spindle the more sensitive the test, 5 thou TIR at 5 inches radius is the same as 1 thou at 1 inch. Setting up a mill is an iterative process with potential for infinite regression so you have to decide when its sensible to stop messing about. There are loads of other test you can do with an indicator. For example you suggestion of cranking the table from one end to the other is a good test of whether the table is flat and true, Fortunately a Taig is built to reasonable standards so you should not find any funny results unless you try to set things up to better than the manufacturing tolerances will allow. Some of the cheap imports have a distressing tendency to incorporate quality standards more appropriate to bananas than machine tools so, if you want accuracy you have to check everything and then some. You have to be very careful to think things through and not correct one error with an other one. For example if you put the indicator holder in a chuck which does not run true then your tramming will include the chuck error so when you have finished setting up the machine alignment will have an error exactly equal and opposite to the chuck. So first job is to make sure that the bit you will hang the indicator off of runs true. As far as we are concerned a dial indicator and a dial test indicator are different names for the same thing. HTH Clive ------- NOTE TO FILE: For more information on dial indicators and dial test indicators, see the Indicating and Measuring file here. They are certainly not the same thing. While both can serve for some lathe or mill operations, they both have unique capabilities that the other cannot match. ------- Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 14:56:33 -1000 (HST) From: benedict-listx~xxhawaii.rr.com Subject: Re: First steps with Taig mill (and my first question :-)) On Thu, 27 Oct 2005, eduard_nesterov wrote: > Hello All, > I am very happy Asi brought up a couple of interesting and very > important question and I am even more happy that you had time and > patience to answer them. > I am also a taig-mill newbie and I have a taig specific question - what > do I need to do to my mill right after I took it out of the box (clean, > tune, oil, .) I am asking this question because I own the Chinese lathe > and it took a while before I made first cut. What I want is not to make > some stupid mistakes which may shorten life on the mill. I tried to do > my homework and search taigtools group archive before posting this > question but was not able to find this information (maybe because my > first language is not English and it is hard to find the correct > keywords). I appreciate all your help and patience. Here's a short list of what I did and did not do when my mill arrived, and the consequences of each: The mill shows up in several boxes, partially disassembled. Step 1: Put the thing together. At this point your spindle will not be square to the column, and the column will not be square to the table. (NOTE: There may also be loose screws!) Now is a good time to oil everything. Way oil would be best, but 30wt is what Taig recommends. Step 2: Get the column straight to the mill. This requires a pretty good square. I used a screwless toolmaker's vise as my "square". Turns out it was pretty square, but there's a way to check that. Put the square on the mill table and mount an indicator to the spindle housing. Arrange your square so the tip of the indicator touches the side of the square. Run the Z axis up and down, and look for the indicator reading to change as it goes up and down. Adjust the column left or right until you get a zero-zero reading along the range of travel of the column. Lock the column into place with the big nut at the back and double-check your work. Check to see how much run-out you have in the other direction (front to back rather than side to side). One of the people on the list had a paint chip stuck between the column and the base when they got their mill, and this threw the column out of square in that direction. Step 3: Get the spindle parallel to the column (and perpendicular to the mill table). This is what people are doing when they sweep an indicator around the mill table. It's important to do step 2 before step 3 because you can easily set the Taig up to have the spindle perpendicular to the table, but have the column way off to one side. After moving my shop I set up my mill this way by accident. It took me almost a month and several ruined parts to figure this out. Step 4: Check for loose bolts!!! Any threaded fastener in anything that's shipped in the mail stands a good chance of coming loose. This happened to me and I didn't find out about it until tooooo late. My first part was a new spindle wrench for my lathe and mill. 1/8" cold rolled steel, a 1/8" end mill, and a very enthusiastic operator. The mill was LOUD. The tool was LOUD. Everything was loud right up until I destroyed the cutting edges. Then it got louder. Turns out the screws holding the dovetail onto the column were loose, which let the mill vibrate like crazy, which eventually destroyed the tool. Tightening everything down and swapping to a new tool solved this quite nicely. Lucky for me, the Taig mill is built like a tank. Very few things really hurt it. Here are some I have and have not done: 1 - Drive a tool into the table (haven't done it on the mill, have done it on the lathe) 2 - Fail to maintain lubrication on the sliding parts (have done it on the mill, not on the lathe -- Galled the X axis) 3 - Set the gibs too tight (have done it on both, but quickly corrected) -- this shortens the life of the leadscrews and nuts 4 - Drop the tool from a height (thank goodness I haven't done this to either one!) Even having done the first three of these to my tools, both my lathe and my mill are still in service, and are still cranking out really nice parts. Tom ------- Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 12:32:34 -0000 From: "combelis" Subject: Re: First steps with Taig mill (and my first question :-)) In taigtoolsx~xxyahoogroups.com, Eduard Nesterov wrote: > Tom, Thank you very much for the information. This is exactly > what I was looking for. > You mentioned that "30wt is what Taig recommends" for oiling on the > ways. Where can I find other Taig recommendations? How do you > adjust gibs? Is there any document describing the procedure? > I have done it on my Chinese lathe, but it is 100% different from > the Taig. There are no parallel and perpendicular surfaces on it > whatsoever. Thanks, Ed Hi Ed, Try here: http://www.cartertools.com/millset.html Asi ------- Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 17:43:32 -0500 From: "Kenneth Ferrell" Subject: My first stps with a taig mill Hello Asi: I found that after cleaning and before tramming, I lube my mill with Superlube. It's fairly expensive about 4.00 for a small tube, but after 20 or 30 hours I noticed that my ways didn't have as much sludge or nasty black stuff that develops as Aluminum microscopically wears, At first every thing is a bit stiff until the carrier for the Teflon dissipates, then I reset my gibs, Tram the column and good to go for another few hundred hours. I wish I could say that my mill table is without blemish but it's had several endmills driven into it. With all the hours and rough stuff I've done to my Taig, I can still hold my X backlash to .0015 and my Y backlash to .0025. I did have to shim the spindle mounting plate with a single piece of Reynolds tin foil. I also use the Superlube on my Leadscrews, Enjoy your Mill. Good luck Ken Ferrell ------- Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 From: benedict-listx~xxhawaii.rr.com Subject: Re: Re: First steps with Taig mill (and my first question :-)) > I understand how I'm suppose to "square" the column to the table using > the indicator. but still have a few questions: > a. Why do I have to use 1-2-3 blocks or a vise ? can't I just simply > put the indicator tip on the table ? > b. What is the procedure of "squaring" the spindle to the column? > how it is done ? at Nick's site it's shown that the spindle > arrives on the column. The 1-2-3 block, vise, or square is used because to square the column to the table you need some known vertical surface. When you're squaring the column to the table, what you're trying to do is make sure motion in Z is completely orthogonal to X and Y. To do that you need some vertical surface you can touch an indicator tip to as you slide Z up and down. It's great to have a square that's really really square, say to within a few ten thousandths over the length of the square. But really good squares are honkin' expensive (technical term I use to mean, "I didn't budget for that!!) Here's a way to use a less-than-perfect square, still get your column dead-on, and get an estimate on the error on your square: Mount your indicator on the Z axis slide. Set the square on your mill table to the right side of the Z axis, and bring the indicator tip to bear on it. The indicator tip will approach the square from the left. Run the Z axis up and down, and adjust until you get a zero-zero reading for the entire range of travel. Now move the square to the left side of the column and bring the indicator tip to bear on it. The indicator tip will now approach the square from the right. Run the Z axis to the bottom of travel and zero out the indicator. Now run it to the top. If your square has straight sides, the reading on the indicator at the top of travel will be double the error in your square. Adjust your column until your indicator gives half this reading as you go from bottom to top. Now move the square back to the other side and repeat. You should get identical readings on both sides. Even with an imperfect square, you can still square up a column. Squaring the spindle to the column requires less equipment because now you have a known relationship: Your X, Y, and Z axes are all orthogonal to each other. So rather than having to indicate the spindle to the column, you can indicate the spindle to some other known quantity. At this point your column is perpendicular to the mill table, so you want your spindle to be perpendicular to the mill table as well. To do this, chuck an indicator up in the mill spindle. Collet, chuck, whatever. It doesn't matter as long as it's gripped good and tight, and the indicator can be spun around in a circle. Lower your spindle until the indicator tip bears on the mill table. Zero out the indicator and sweep it around to the other side. If you have zero-zero readings around the entire circle, you're good to go. If you don't, there's some adjustment to be done. This involves loosening the bolts that hold the spindle to the Z axis slide and tweaking things until you get that zero-zero reading. In practice it's a little tougher, because those bolts are hidden when the headstock is installed. Luckily, the dovetail is longer than the headstock (on my mill, anyway). Here's how I do it: Install only two bolts, at one end of the dovetail. Install the headstock. Indicate until things run true. Remove the headstock. Install the other bolts into the doetail. Replace the headstock. Check to make sure things haven't moved (they almost always do). If they do, continue tweaking until you've got that zero-zero reading again. Tom ------- Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 21:27:19 -0000 From: "combelis" Subject: Re: First steps with Taig mill (and my first question :-)) Tom: Now everything makes sense to me, thanks. I got confused understanding what needed to be square. Your tip that the indicator should touch the side of the 1-2-3 blocks and not the upper surface, corrected my misunderstanding. Again thank you. 35 days and counting until the mill gets here. Asi ------- Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 20:05:41 -0800 From: Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein Subject: CNC conversion worklog One of my new customers, John Zitterkopf, has started a worklog of his conversion of a CNC ready Taig to CNC using Xylotex drives & steppers. He hasn't gotten the mill yet but has made a bunch of advances putting together the controller and such. It's pretty detailed. http://www.wizdforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=3069 See our homepage at www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 09:20:03 +0000 From: Alex Holden Subject: Re: scuff marks on the ways - normal or defect? On 18 Dec 2005, Vlad Krupin wrote: > Earlier today I took my taig mill apart to adjust backlash, and while doing so noticed some interesting deep gouges in the ways. I can't think of how I could cause them, and they only appear on one face to the ways -- the table that comes in contact with that face has no trace of damage of any kind. This makes me thing that this could be a manufacturing defect of some kind? They come from the factory like that. I think the idea is that the gouges will provide a reservoir for lubricating oil, but it does look a bit crude. Alex Holden http://www.alexholden.net/ ------- NOTE TO FILE: The above question in the taigtools group on 18 Dec 2005 was with regard to strange "scuff marks" found on the underside of the Taig lathe saddle. They were in fact crude factory additions to hold lubricant. Once the discussion got more general as to how to scrape metal contact surfaces, further comments were transferred to the file "Finish for Tools" for the benefit of any tool owner needing better lubrication or flattening. ------- Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 18:18:12 -0500 From: "Carol & Jerry Jankura" Subject: RE: Re: Bolt the mill [taigtools] I'd suggest laminating a couple of 3/4 inch thick pieces of MDF together, and then laminate a piece of steel sheet to that. Drill holes to accommodate those threaded inserts, and mount yout mill to the base using standard machine screws. If you want to get fancy, edge the MDF with quarter inch thick OAK pieces and finish them off. I've used this technique for my Sherline tools and find that it works out quite well. There's no reason the same couldn't be done using Taig tools. Jerry ------- Date: fri, 23 dec 2005 17:11:29 -0800 (pst) from: juan gelt subject: re: re: just bought a new taig... Congratulations. You will love your new Taig. I carried mine around the neighborhood to show it off to neighbors who have no clue, but at least they have an idea I'm harmless sort of freak... You can use any ordinary cutters. I've got mine off ebay all the time for a few dollars each, max. For carbide. I use a jacobs keyless chuck, as when I tried one out that I got from the hardware store it showed no runout and still doesn't despite the side-loading. Until it does, it's too convenient and will stay put! At the hardware store they sell hex nuts or square nuts. The 10-32 square ones fit the table slots. ------- Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 18:21:16 -0800 (PST) From: Jim McMillan Subject: Re: Re: Just bought a new Taig... Hi Guys, I've discovered that 1/4 hardware fits the Taig mill better than #10 does. Their lathe likes #10 though. Another trick is to use slightly modified 1/4 inch carriage bolts (the type with a button head and a square boss under the head). You need to grind or file flat spots on the edges of the head (I do 4 sides, parallel to the flats on the boss) so the head will fit the slot. Also, deburr the underside of the head after grinding so it doesn't chew up the table slot. Put the head into the slot (threads up) and the boss keeps it from rotating. I then use washers and wingnuts on top of the workpiece for quick-change operation. There is also no danger of jamming the bolt against the bottom of the slot. Jim ------- Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 13:19:09 -0500 From: Rich Crook Subject: Re: extending y travel on taig mill >i'm looking into putting together a Taig CNC mill. my only concern is >the 5.75" of y travel. is there any way to increase the Y travel on >these mills, and has anyone successfully attempted this? Several people have. You can add a 1" spacer block between the lead screw mounting plate and the saddle to get another inch of travel. (Yes, it's really that simple!) The lead screw has enough length to allow this without having the nut run off the end. I used a short piece of 1" square steel tubing and 1-1/2" bolts to replace the 3/4" stock bolts. I couldn't find 1-3/4" socket head bolts locally & didn't feel like using threaded rod & nuts (too lazy ) I will be sending photos of this (and a few other simple mod's) to Nick Carter's website very soon (cartertools.com) >also, i'm curious if anyone can share good setup notes as far as CNC >drivers, software, stepper motor torque specification, etc. that >you're using. The motors Taig uses are 200 oz/in torque, for what that's worth. Rich [later] With my rear stop (keeps the saddle from crushing the rear way cover) I currently have 6.8" total. I could probably increase that to 6.9" by adjusting the rear stop... Photos should be available soon on cartertools.com once Nick gets a chance to add them. ------- Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 10:03:36 +0000 From: Tony Jeffree Subject: RE: Re: extending y travel on taig mill >Did u have to put longer leadscrew into the Mc ? Alan H. I believe the standard Y axis screw is long enough to get an inch of extra travel without running off the end. However, there are related problems here - if you extend the Y travel, the table is still the same size, so to get the extra benefit, you then need to extend the table width, which in turn, restricts how far the table will travel towards the Z column...and you may also need to stick a raising block under the spindle to compensate somewhat, which will reduce the rigidity of the Z axis. So, while it can improve the flexibility of the machine, it isn't as straightforward as it looks! Regards, Tony ------- Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 16:05:06 -0000 From: "jkeyser14" Subject: Re: extending y travel on taig mill Yeah, that is is a bit of a problem, without putting a 1/2" spacer behind the spindle to move it out half an inch, that extra inch of travel doesn't do much for increasing the machinable area. I've had a part I regularly machine that I can't do on the taig because it's tall enough that it bumps into the z-axis leadscrew before I can get to the area needing to be machined. I've been thinking about trying to make a spacer for the spindle so I can machine these parts on the taig. (28 very small and precise holes to a controlled depth is a PITA to do by hand; I spend all day freaking out about one hole being off a couple thousandths or breaking a bit.) ------- Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 16:30:28 +0000 From: Tony Jeffree Subject: Re: Re: extending y travel on taig mill >extra inch of travel doesn't do much for increasing the machinable area. Thats right. A trick that I use to deal with tall workpieces (in fact, the mill's been set up this way for some while!) is to un-bolt the Z axis ways (there are 1/2 doz or so socket head screws holding it to the column, in a zigzag pattern) and bolt it back on one bolt-hole higher up. Gives you a couple of inches extra height, at the expense of some stiffness, but if you are doing light work you can get away with it. Regards, Tony ------- Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 14:08:34 -0500 From: Rich Crook Subject: Re: Re: extending y travel on taig mill Probably the easiest approach is to simply buy a # 1251 tailstock riser (for the lathe). The dovetails are the same on the mill & lathe, so it'll fit just fine. One caveat - the riser will offset the headstock ~1/4" to one side (you can flip it to control which way it offsets), but on the mill this shouldn't pose any problem. (The tailstock riser is available separately, the headstock riser comes with a toolpost riser.) As for a wider table, just add a tooling plate that extends out past the front edge of the table. Can be as simple or fancy as you like (& can afford ). The stock leadscrew is long enough to add another inch of travel without losing any nut engagement. (The nut is still fully engaged with the screw moved out 1".) Extending it 1-1/2" is pushing it, IMO. The nut on the CNC mill is 1" long/deep (manual mill nuts may be a little shorter.) Rich ------- Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 06:19:15 -1000 (HST) From: benedict-listx~xxhawaii.rr.com Subject: Re: Can sub 1-mil accuracy be obtained using the Taig CNC mill? Bear with me if this has already been answered. I'm catching up on mail. 30 Dec 2005, Bob Voelker wrote: > I'm new to machining and am considering obtaining the Taig 2026ER CNC > mill with ER16 spindle. Space, weight, and budget constraints limit me > to a Taig or Sherline mill. > > My application is to mill either rectangular or "+" shaped pockets in > brass, aluminum, and high density polyethylene (HDPE) plastic blocks. > These blocks would be no more than 2 inches on a side and 0.75 inches > thick. The depth of the pockets would be no more than about 0.5 inches > and the wall-to-wall spacing would be about an inch. These dimensions > need to be controlled as tightly as possible, with sub 1-mil accuracy > the goal. Only a few of these objects will be made for experimental > purposes; no mass production will be done. Would you be willing to make a run of prototypes in order to characterize your mill? The reason I'm asking is that you CAN take out backlash, especially in something like a pocket. But it requires you to make a part, measure it, change your toolpath, and re-run the part. The short answer is that you can, but it takes a little doing and experimentation on your part. > Taig advertises that the 2026ER CNC mill has a mechanical resolution of > 0.5 mil and an electrical resolution of 0.13 mil. I assume that the 0.5 > mil spec is for taking cuts in one direction only, to avoid backlash in > the Acme screws. The screws aren't Acmes on my mill, but yeah, that'd be my guess, too. > Considering the simple geometry (straight line cuts; no curves) and > small lengths (about an inch cut), is it possible to achieve sub 1-mil > accuracy? It is possible, but again it'd take work. > Would it be possible to obtain even better accuracy by first using the > Taig CNC mill to cut within a few mil of the exact desired dimensions > and then using a bolt-on linear glass scale DRO to guide me in manually > operating the mill to cut to the exact dimensions? Travers Tool Co. > sells bolt-on linear glass scale DRO's with 0.2 mil accuracy. This would be tough. The CNC mills really aren't meant to be operated manually. The knobs on the outboard ends of the motors are ok for touching off a corner of the part to zero your axes, but even for that they're... well, they're knobs. It's easier to do it through the CNC program. I think at the scales you're talking about a bigger problem than backlash will be tool flex and material flex. Brass shouldn't be a problem, but plastics are harder to get dimensionally accurate parts out of. > What lead-free (to avoid toxicity) brass and aluminum alloys and > coolants would provide for the most accurate cutting? Half hard brass would be my first choice, and 6000 or 7000 series aluminum. I'm guessing there are others, but that's what comes to mind for me. A water soluble cutting fluid should be fine for aluminum. Brass likes to be cut dry. These days most of the water soluble cutting fluids are pretty safe. > Also on the topic of accuracy, would it be possible to obtain sub 1-mil > accuracy in diameter of a brass rod about 0.1 inches in diameter using > a Taig lathe? The length of the brass rod would be about 2 inches. Yes, but the 2" length is starting to push things. Shorter is better. This can also be done using the CNC mill, but again shorter is better. The nice thing about doing it on the CNC is that once you figure out how the material is deflecting from the tool, you can program in compensation for it. Tom ------- Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 17:57:42 -0500 From: Rich Crook Subject: Re: Flycutter vs. Facemill [taigtools] >I never had the priveledge of working with an experienced machinist, >so my question is why would you want to use a facemill over a >flycutter (and vice versa). And does the taig have the power to push a >facemill? has anyone tried? -b Facemill (aka shell mill): It has multiple cutting edges, so it can be run at significantly higher feedrates. It is balanced, so it doesn't vibrate as much. It's more rigid than a flycutter (doesn't chatter due to tool flex.) Flycutter: Can be readily adjusted to different diameter sweeps. Generally much less expensive (shell mill & arbor can cost $100 or more). Easy to change cutting profiles (sharp corner, rounded corner, etc.) The Taig *can* run a shell mill - I've seen a shell mill holder made specifically for the Taig (sold by Spillage International?) I believe Nick's website (cartertools.com) has some photos of it facing an aluminum block. Rich ------- Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 04:46:05 -0000 From: "Daniel Fuller" Subject: Re: Flycutter vs. Facemill I have never used a fly cutter, but I have the shell mill sold by Nick Carter and it works great on aluminum (haven't tried it on other materials). It has been a while since I used it, so I cannot tell you how deep I could cut. However, my depth of cut experience would not help because I have a manual Taig and I don't pushed it to the limit. Dan Fuller Carrollton, Texas ------- Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 21:08:21 -0800 From: Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein Subject: Re: Re: Flycutter vs. Facemill The Shell mill is sold by Spillage, not me: http://us.spillage.net/ See our homepage at www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- NOTE TO FILE: As of March 2006, Spillage says they are not taking orders due to a hurricane, and send you on to another site which does not seem to list a shell mill. ------- Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 11:16:12 -0500 From: Ken Jenkins Subject: Re: Flycutter vs. Facemill I use a carbide insert face mill on my larger Grizzly mill/drill and it beats a flycutter (IMHO) hands down. The advantage of a flycutter used to be that the single point tool (like a lathe bit) was easier to re-sharpen than dealing with the geometries involved with a conventional face mill. However with the carbide inserts, changing insert position or replacing them to get a new edge is even easier. The inserts are cheap and in my experience wear well as long as you don't try to take huge cuts which exceed the insert tip clearance. If you take appropriate cuts the Taig has plenty of power to run a face mill. For a finished cut of a couple thou at high speed you can produce an absolutely mirror finish too. Ken Jenkins ------- Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 18:30:14 -0800 (PST) From: Matt Baraga Subject: Re: Re: Flycutter vs. Facemill Spillage is out of business due to a hurricane. Go to white wolf airsmithing http://www.whitewolfairsmithing.com/ They have custom adapter for Taig -- very high quality, basically nill for runout... you will be able to use anything. ------- Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 21:01:47 -0500 From: Landrum Haddix Subject: Re: Re: Flycutter vs. Facemill > Without resorting to some sort of cumbersome custom-made adapter, I think your pretty much limited to the Spillage International shell mill holder that is made tor Taig & Sherline mills. < Well I made a custom adaptor, but it's not cumbersome. Check it out. I posted some photos here: http://web.qx.net/lhaddix/taigsma.htm I took an MSC 1/2" straight shank shell mill holder and tried to turn it down to 3/8". The shank is quite hard and just pushed the tool out of the way on the lathe. However a toolpost grinder took it down about .010 per pass just fine. It didn't even get too hot to touch. I started and ended with about .001 TIR so it's fairly concentric. I did the last couple of passes at .001 doc and the finish is just fine. I mounted a 4 flute 2"dia 3/4" hole shell mill on it and fired it up on the Taig. It's deafening to use, but I was able to do a .050 doc at 2 ipm. Slower would have been better, shallower is smoother. I was using the jog controls to cut 'automanually'. This finish is good at 2 ipm, but wouldn't call it a mirror finish. I think the 4 flute shell for aluminum I was using wouldn't cut as nice as something with a bunch of flutes. I think the cut would be fantastic at 1 ipm or less regardless. Landrum Haddix http://web.qx.net/lhaddix ------- Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 23:06:02 -0500 From: Rich Crook Subject: Re: Re: Flycutter vs. Facemill >Well I made a custom adaptor, but it's not cumbersome. Well, technically, that is a modified shell mill holder, not an adapter. By adapter, I was thinking of a separate part that went between the spindle & the mill holder. As in a blank arbor bored to 1/2", with side set screws (more joints, thus more possibility for tool runout & flex.) As long as one can grind it down accurately, that works fine. I may try just that at some point. (I wouldn't want to grind one down to 1/4" tho...would probably get too springy/flexible.) >I mounted a 4 flute 2"dia 3/4" hole shell mill on it and fired it >up on the Taig. It's deafening to use, but I was able to do a .050 doc >at 2 ipm. Slower would have been better, shallower is smoother. I'd guess that it would be a lot quieter (& cut better) at a lower spindle speed. At 10K rpm, the surface speed would be 1075 IPS. Even without looking at the Machinery's Handbook, I can say that that's way too fast. Cutters with more flutes would allow higher feedrates, but would want the same surface speed. Rich ------- Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 23:25:06 -0500 From: Landrum Haddix Subject: Re: Re: Flycutter vs. Facemill > Even without looking at the Machinery's Handbook, I can say that > that's way too fast... Rich: Yes, definitely. Good point. I didn't feel like moving the belt. Not used to thinking about a 2" cutter. About 600 rpm would give .001 ipt at 2 ipm feed. Oops. Landrum Haddix http://web.qx.net/lhaddix ------- From: "Greg McFadden" greg.mcfaddenx~xxgmail.com Date: Wed Apr 19, 2006 5:43pm(PDT) Subject: good timing [taigtools] Talk about good timing... I just ordered two new belts from Nick, and low and behold, I go to start the mill up today and notice that the belt has failed. Man... how did I time this that well. Does anyone have any tips on maximizing belt life? I had the pulleys aligned so that there was no snapping noise or anything like that (and are as close to perfect as I can get them), the belt ran in its grooves nicely and didn't show any signs of excessive wear (other than the failed point where the belt is split halfway through). I probably had only 40-50 hours of runtime on that belt. thanks Greg ------- From: "campgems" Donx~xxCampbell-Gemstones.com Date: Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:25pm(PDT) Subject: Re: good timing Two things kill these little belts. Mis-alignment and insufficient tightness. The alignment issue is usually evident by the belt wanting to roll over in the groove just before it parts company. This is because one side gets stretched more than the other and becomes longer. The tightness is important because if you stall a spindle, and not the motor, the motor pully will quickly burn the belt. This results in a hard and brittle area of the belt which will fail. If you can stall the spindle, and not the motor at the same time, your belt isn't tight enough. We used to use these belts on big printers back in the late 70's. One adjusted so it sang as you plucked it would last for a year or more of use (27-7), while one that had an inch or so deflection mid belt may not last but a couple days. Slippage is a killer on these guys. Don ------- Re: Mill Slot Size [taigtools] Posted by: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" felicex~xxcasco.net Date: Mon Jun 5, 2006 5:03 pm (PDT) > What size clamp set studs and nuts fit the Taig mill? I thought the > table slots were the same size as the lathe slots and have been buying > a few small items accordingly but I think I may mistaken on this. > C. J. Klingman Briarcliff, TX As is typical they are an odd size. 1/2" wide 1/4" thick for the bottom of the slot, 1/4" thick x 1/4" deep for the top. I tend to just make them from lengths of 1/4" x 1/2" CRS tapped 1/4"-20 and 10-32 http://www.cartertools.com/picture.html#MCT See our homepage at www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html -------- Re: Taig mill feeds n speeds/depth of cut - See Database Section Posted by: "david_steele59" david_steele59x~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Jun 5, 2006 6:34 pm (PDT) [taigtools] "dkp_design" wrote: > 1/4" endmills no more than .100" per pass > 1/8" mills, .075" Ballmills I ususally use > 1/8" .250" deep, at 6-8IPM, but the cut isn't that great and ther is > alot of bit shift/walg with that large of a cut on a small bit. "Greg McFadden" wrote: >> Does anyone have a rule of thumb for converting experience determined > feed rates/depth of cut for standard end mills to ball end mills? Greg: Excellent question, but since I don't have the answer, I have created a Database so users can add their recommended feeds & speeds to share with the group. Anyone is welcome to add their information to it; it is located under the Database Section. David ------- Screws coming loose [taigtools] Posted by: "javaguy11111" javaguy11111x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Jun 24, 2006 10:26 pm (PDT) I was trying to do my first cuts in steel today and it seems like my mill just wants to fall apart. First the left screws for the box slides came loose. I tighted those up and then the screws holding down the mill head itself came loose. Is this normal for a taig? Should I put loctite on everything to make sure the screws stay locked down. ------- Re: Screws coming loose Posted by: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" felicex~xxcasco.net Date: Sat Jun 24, 2006 11:12 pm (PDT) It's usually pretty well torqued when received, but it is important to always make sure screws are tightened correctly when first setting up any machine tool. I wouldn't use loctite. If there is a lot of vibration it is better to address that, as it sounds like that may have caused the screws to loosen. See our homepage at www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Several Questions [taigtools] Posted by: "javaguy11111" javaguy11111x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Jun 25, 2006 2:42 pm (PDT) I thought I had picked out a fairly simple task to try out on my machine this weekend and it has turned into a bit of a nightmare. The plan was to machine some tnuts for my mill out of crs. I bought some 1/2x1 bar stock and thought I would have a relatively simple time of cutting some 1/8 inch slots and drilling a hole to tap a screw. No such luck. I will list the problems I had and hopefully I can get suggestions on how to proceed. I was attempting to mill with an 1/8 bit, 1900 rpm, 10 ipm feed rate, flood cooling on and 1/32 inch cut depth. It did not sound like there was a problem with keeping the bit turning. I have done several cuts in aluminum prior to this and had no problems. 1. Screws and gibs loosening- I mentioned this in an earlier post. Several screws in the z axis came loose along with the box gibs. I cranked everything down as hard as I could to get the looseness out, but it eventually loosens up again. Also the mill head came loose once as well. When the z axis starts getting loose I push on the head in the direction of the x axis I can see and feel it move. 2. Bit slipping- After I get the z axis tight I started having problems with the bit slipping in the collet. The bit turns, but it starts working its way into the collet instead of into the the workpiece. How do you keep the bits from slipping. Do I need some extra collar around the bit? 3. Bit deflection- I do not notice it when entering the cut, but when I exit the cut I can see the bit deflection. I am sure this is a problem no matter what kind of machine you have. Still I am not sure what to do about it. Do I just have to adjust the cut to account for the deflection? 4. End result very inaccurate -- When I can get all the way through a run the dimensions are all off. I was shooting for a .25 width. If I do my cuts with down milling it widens to .28 and with up milling the width ends up being about .22. So no matter what I do I wind up about 1/32 off. Maybe someone who has milled some tee nuts can say what setting they were using so I can try it on my machine. Damon ------- Re: Several Questions Posted by: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" felicex~xxcasco.net Date: Sun Jun 25, 2006 3:24 pm (PDT) I would lower the feed rate to around 2-5 inches per minute. I know that sounds slow, but an 1/8" cutter does not remove very much material per rev...especially in steel. If the bit is slipping then either you didn't get the collet tight enough (do you have the stock spindle or the ER spindle) or your downfeed was so fast that the force built up and pushed the endmill back in the collet, or both...The bit deflection also hints at this fast downfeed...make sure it is a center cutting endmill if you are plunging into the material. See our homepage at www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Re: Several Questions Posted by: "Doug Stout" kingshouse41225x~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Jun 25, 2006 4:02 pm (PDT) T-nuts you're removing quite a bit of material, even for small ones. You'd be better off to start with a 3/8" or 1/2" roughing endmill at about 600 rpm 5 ipm or so, but removing all but .005" - .010". If it starts to chatter slow down the feedrate or make two passes, half depth but full width each time. Then go to a 2 flute of the same size about 1100 - 1200 rpm and your original 10 ipm for a finish pass. If you leave less on the side (.002" - .005") than on the bottom you can climb mill assuming you're running CNC. It's most productive to profile them in one long piece, then cut them apart. ------- Several Questions Posted by: "Doug Stout" kingshouse41225x~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:31 pm (PDT) Oops- noticed a typo on my post, meant to say 3/8" or 1/4" endmill. Most probably noticed that anyway. Yes, collets should not only be tightened with a wrench, and don't spare the tight, but I'll add as much as possible of the endmill should be in the collet, not hanging out. ------- Re: Several Questions Posted by: "larrysx~xxteamlarry.com" larrysx~xxteamlarry.com Date: Sun Jun 25, 2006 5:57 pm (PDT) "javaguy11111" wrote: > How tight should I close the collet. I have been tightening hand > tight. Should I be using a wrench? Two -- 1" on the spindle and 7/8" on the collet closer. It'll make life a lot more pleasant, trust me :) -ls- ------- Re: Several Questions Posted by: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" felicex~xxcasco.net Date: Sun Jun 25, 2006 6:03 pm (PDT) javaguy11111 wrote: > How tight should I close the collet. I have been tightening hand > tight. Should I be using a wrench? Yes! That may be a large part of your problem right there. You should use a wrench on the spindle and another on the collet nut to tighten. See our homepage at www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Re: Several Questions Posted by: "javaguy11111" javaguy11111x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:21 pm (PDT) Thanks for all the great suggestions up to this point. I did not see anything in the manual about using a wrench. Still it makes sense, since a flat wrench was included. I was wondering what it was for! With nut tightened up I ran to two tests trying to mill a tee nut. I tried first with a 3/8 mill. Thanks Doug for that suggestion. I had a 3/8 mill, but forgot I also had the 3/8 ER16 collet. I tried the 3/8 in steel at the lowest speed for the mill, but the belts started slipping. I was running 2 ipm. I tried the same test in aluminum and the cut ran to completion. However the width of the top of the tee was was .265. So something is still moving around. I next tried to cut the tee nut in steel using the 1/8 bit. I made sure I was completely clear of the stock during engage and retract. So the cutting started from the side. I tried using the settings based on a speed and feed program. 90sfpm cutting, .002 cut per tooth, 11ipm feed and 2700 rpm. I actually used 2900 rpm for the pulley setting. The cut when finished was .28 wide instead of .25. I had the bit as far up in the collet as I could get to minmize flexing of the bit. I also still have slop in my box gibs. I can push the z axis in the x direction, look at the brass gib and see a gap and feel the shift. If I had to guess it is no thicker than a piece of paper. I do not think that slop was there when I got the machine. I have tightened the gib screws as much as I can, but it seems to do no good. That is assuming I am tightening the correct screws. I have also noticed that when I jog the z axis and descending that I am getting a vibration that is not present when I go up. That is new as well. I am assuming because of the gibs not being adjusted properly. Again thanks for all the suggestions. ------- Re: Several Questions Posted by: "Doug Stout" kingshouse41225x~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:29 pm (PDT) A roughing mill is quite different than a "normal" endmill. A roughing mill takes lots of small bites but will have more chip clearance than the 1/8" endmill. If you have slop that you can feel and see, it is too much. ------- Re: Several Questions Posted by: "javaguy11111" javaguy11111x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:34 pm (PDT) I just found the z axis taper gib adjustment on Nicks site. So I have been able to reduce the play in the taper gib. However I still have the noise when z axis is descending. I am wondering if the front back play needs to be readjusted. I was messing with this yesterday because the screws had come loose there. I am not sure how that adjustment works though. Do I just loosen the screws, press down by hand and retighten or is there something else going on? ------- Re: Several Questions Posted by: "larrysx~xxteamlarry.com" larrysx~xxteamlarry.com Date: Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:49 pm (PDT) Loosen the screws on the shoes, squeeze it all together with one hand, and while holding it tight, tighten the screws. I had to do that on my mill. -ls- ------- Re: Several Questions Posted by: "javaguy11111" javaguy11111x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Jun 25, 2006 8:45 pm (PDT) I gave that a try. Unfortunately I still have the vibration when the z axis is descending when I jog down. I ran another test after tightening the taper gibs as mentioned in a earlier post. There is some improvement. I got .265, but that is better than the .28 I had earlier. .265 is also what I had earlier with the 3/8 mill in aluminum. ------- Re: Several Questions Posted by: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" felicex~xxcasco.net Date: Sun Jun 25, 2006 8:54 pm (PDT) The thing is, there are a lot of variables to check when getting running with CNC. What you are doing is good - choose a task and work towards getting perfect results. A lot of this will be "experimental", try this or that, see if it helps, and move on to the next thing. It takes a while to get a feel for the gib adjustments, etc. Just keep trying and asking questions and you will get there. What are you using to generate your toolpaths? Is the .265" dimension centered - is it milling not enough on each side? It may be a scaling/ toolpath/tool offset/etc. problem that you will have to hunt down. ------- Re: Several Questions Posted by: "javaguy11111" javaguy11111x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Jun 25, 2006 9:14 pm (PDT) I am using Visual Mill Basic to generate the tool paths. For this case the simulation was dead on. The .265 is width of the top of the tee. So not enough is getting milled away. When I was doing circle and square testing in aluminum, I initially tried doing my cuts in one pass and quickly realized that I needed to do a finish pass if I wanted to have any accuracy. In the end I was able to get within the backlash of the x and y axes. With the cutting slots case there is not an opportunity for a finish pass. So I am not sure if I will need to precompensate or if there is another way to do it. What I may try next is running the same tests with the 1/8 and 3/8 bits in aluminum. If I see any differences I expect it would be because of tool deflection. ------- Re: Several Questions Posted by: "Paul W. Chamberlain" pwcx~xxcapcocons.com Date: Mon Jun 26, 2006 11:11 am (PDT) Be sure to check the sharpness of your cutters under magnification. A slightly dull cutter will still plow through aluminum with little resistance, but the same cutter edges will "bounce" off CRS... causing many of the symptoms you're describing. I use a good quality Bausch & Lomb Watchmaker's type eye loupe (4X)... available from most tool suppliers' sale catalogs for under $10. A few dollars more gets a Watchmaker's headband (piece of spring wire around the back of the head that holds the loupe to your eye), so you don't have to cramp your eyebrow holding it in place. Avoid the "Three for under $10" variety eye loupes... they don't have the center to edge clarity of a B&L... your eye(s) will thank you! Another option would be one of the many pocket microscopes... again get one with good center to edge clarity. I always go for a smaller cutter diameter for slots to allow a finish pass. A recent project in aluminum showed that leaving 0.005" on the roughing pass did not clean up the multi-pass "layers" of the roughing cut on the finish pass. In other words... I had over 0.005" deflection at the cutter tip. This was using an American brand 3 flute 1/8" HSS cutter on 6061, using one of the available speed & feed calculator settings. I've since learned that about half the recommended spindle speed, while maintaining chip load, works better for my system. Paul, Central OR ------- Re: Milling shaped cutting tools [taigtools] Posted by: "benedict-listx~xxhawaii.rr.com" Date: Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:05 pm (PDT) On Sun, 22 Oct 2006, MVC wrote: > I have heard about reversing the Mill and using as a lathe....how > practical is that? It's actually not that hard to set up. (Hey, good to know someone's looking at my site, Martin!) If you don't mind your work hanging upside-down, you don't even have to do any real changes on the mill to make it work. The first time I used the mill that way I turned the headstock 90 degrees, mounted all the tools normally, and gave it a go. Afterward I think it was Nick who pointed out it would've been a LOT easier simply to leave the headstock vertical and rotate the tools. He was right. Since then I made a toolbar to hold six lathe tools on the mill bed. There's an article on my web site about that, too. (Sorry, Nick, I still haven't written up that construction article... DOH!) It's not that complicated, though, and pictures alone will probably show you everything you need. I've got a second toolbar roughed out, but unfinished, for holding boring bars, center drills, and drill bits. That one's still a work in progress. All in all the only real gotcha with using a mill this way is that you have to be careful zeroing out the tools. On a lathe you zero out your tool height once. Done. If you have multiple toolposts or a QC toolholder, you may not have to zero out the height of that tool for a long long time (one of mine has been in its toolholder for over a year, and it still cuts right on center.) Doing this on the mill is more involved. I never trust my mill to be in the same place as I left it (kids in the house, cat sleeps in the shop, etc.) So I re-zero each time. It's a bit of a pain. Basically the best way I've found to do it is to chuck up some scrap, rough-zero by eye, make a light pass (so you know the material is concentric to the spindle now), and measure with calipers or a mic. Knowing this diameter, zero your tool out to it the same way you'd find the center of a hole: With it rough-centered, move in in X until the tool touches. Set that X value to half the diameter of the part. Now pull out, go to zero in X, and repeat with the Y axis. Once it touches, set that Y value to half the diameter of the part. Now repeat in X and repeat in Y. By that time you're pretty darned close. How to tell when you're touching? This is going to sound goofy, but a digital multimeter with an audible continuity check works great. I think a much simpler device could be made using a battery, an LED or buzzer, and a little wire. But here's how it works: I touch one lead to the spindle, the other to the tool. There are enough anodized surfaces in the Taig mill that you don't get any continuity this way. (This is very likely NOT true for a Bridgeport or similarly constructed mill.) As soon as the tool touches the part, you get continuity and the buzzer goes off. This winds up being very very sensitive. Of course it's only good on metal parts. If you're trying to zero out on something that doesn't conduct, it doesn't work. But for using the mill as a lathe you're zeroing out on scrap, anyway. I use 1/8" brass for zeroing out, then switch to whatever material I need to cut. All in all it's not too bad. It takes a bit to zero out the tools, but unless something untoward happens (like stalling a motor) that's good for the whole session. > Am new to milling/lathing/CNC so everything is going to be an uphill > learning experience. Everyone starts at some point, and I don't think any of us really ever end learning. So it's always uphill. But the climb can be a fun experience. > What I am producing are mouthpieces for a trumpet ...approx. one inch in > diameter and 3.5 inches long with tapers and many radiuses etc. Aha! Actually, that mill setup should work pretty well for what you're describing. Though I can understand why you'd want to use a forming tool. It's probably how a large production shop would do it. One tool on the tailstock, one on the cross-slide. But it'd be brutal on a Taig. The forces involved are enormous. > Also have to make tapered cutting tools for a 3 inch narrow taper. > ALL help/suggestions are GREATLY appreciated. > Industry standard for MANY years prior to CNC technology were contoured > cutting tools that were good for several thousand cuts before going > dull. So... > Would it be possible to make these cutting tools via my Taig CNC Mill? > Are blanks avail....or would these too have to be made? > If I were going to go for a CNC lathe....what would you suggest? > Cutting tools look something like this... It'd be possible... Jerry Kieffer posted some years ago about making gear fly cutters on a mill using that same technique. I've tried it and it does work. But if you're wanting to go this route, I'd opt for a much larger lathe. By way of comparison, pick a lathe where you can get a 1" diameter drill bit and ram it into a piece of brass a little over 1" in size. When you find a lathe that's comfortable doing that, you've found a lathe that'd take a 1" diameter forming tool. Failing that, a CNC lathe really would do what you're after, though it'd be slower to operate. (At one point I was looking up the production rate for brass pipe fittings on Swiss screw machinss, basically what you were describing with the forming tools. They can crank out barbed pipe fittings at a rate of one in under a second, complete with feeding the bar for the next part.) But a CNC lathe would offer some nice options, too: If a customer wanted a one-off custom mouthpiece, you could offer it to them a lot more cheaply on the CNC than if you had to make a custom forming tool for them. Not sure if you want to get into that line of work, but it's a thought. As far as what CNC lathe to get, I honestly can't say. I've never used one and don't much keep up with what's offered. For my own needs the Taig mill is sufficient. If anything, I wouldn't mind something smaller to run those barrels so I could set my mill back up with a vise and end mills. Best of luck, Tom ------- Re: Kind of an emergency [taigtools] Posted by: "Sebastien Bailard" penguinx~xxsupermeta.com Date: Sun Dec 10, 2006 10:10 pm ((PST)) 10 December 2006, robtl1067 wrote: > Hey Folks,> I have Kind of an emergency. Right in the middle of > an important project my motor belt breaks. (Taig Mill) > Now I have been eyeing this thing wondering how long it would last > well I guess now I know, Not long. > Anyway, Is Taig the only place to get a replacement? Call your local bearing shop, and see if they have a Gates polyurethane vee belt(est. belt life 5000 hours) No.3M 315 12 1/2" flat length. If you don't have a local bearing shop, the standard industrial supply companies will probably ship them to you overnight, I imagine. Or maybe you have a local industrial supply shop: http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/branchSearchRender.shtml Sebastien -------- Re: Kind of an emergency Posted by: "robtl1067" playnthrux~xxadelphia.net Date: Wed Dec 13, 2006 9:10 am ((PST)) Can you say... proprietary? That little belt is harder than $#^%$#& to find. 2.4 million Kaman supply stores and various other power transmission suppliers in my area (Southern California) and not one of them carries that belt. Even Gates has 0 stock. I suggest you have at the very least 1 extra on hand at all times. I got maybe 20 hours out of mine. Not sure why, but I am going to be watching it super close now. Maybe I had it adjusted too tight? But any looser and the belt flapped all around. Of course just following the excellent instructions sent with my mill purchased from "Deepgroove" ..... Oh yea, there were no instructions, and the home spun controller is already making wierd noises. ------- Re: Kind of an emergency Posted by: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" felicex~xxcasco.net Date: Wed Dec 13, 2006 9:25 am ((PST)) The key is to make sure the pulleys are aligned both front to back and side to side. The belts do not tolerate rubbing against the pulley grooves, especially at high speeds. You want it relatively tight. Crashes, some solvents and misalignement all effect belt wear. Slipping (related sometimes to crashing) also heats up the belt and can destroy it. It's easy to align the pulley side to side, but always check to make sure the motor mount isn't twisted slightly front to back. In other words, make sure the grooves are coplanar. Taig is the easiest place to get the belts from (they stock them), or me in a pinch, or most stocking dealers (Lee Valley). ------- Re: Kind of an emergency Posted by: "Lester Caine" lesterx~xxlsces.co.uk Date: Wed Dec 13, 2006 9:27 am ((PST)) Well I keep stocks for UK users - if people get stuck they would not cost much to ship :) Lester Caine - G8HFL L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://home.lsces.co.uk ------- Re: Increase Y axis [taigtools] Posted by: "rrrevels" n4ftx~xxarrl.net Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 5:13 am ((PST)) >>> Just a question: Anyone try to increase Y axis movement? If >>> someone does, how? Post some advice, photo's, links. >>> Or it is a dumb question. >> I have extended the Y axis on my Taig. I put an extension block on >> the axis and also the head extension from Taig on the Z axis. I >> gained about an inch of Y travel. So far I haven't had any problems >> with rigidity. I have pictures here. Russ http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/taigfiles/photos/browse/8632 > Russ, thank you for posting photos. Nice work. > Your extender block for the y axis - is it about 1.500" thick? Yes the block is 1.5 inches thick by 2.75 wide and 1.2 inches high. I will post a drawing of the block in the photo folder. Russ ------- Re: My Column won't stay Perpendicular [taigtools] Posted by: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" felicex~xxcasco.net Date: Tue Jan 9, 2007 9:28 am ((PST)) John Wall wrote: > I just finished up tramming the column and had was perfect,almost. > After an evening of milling I put an idicator in the chuck and swept > the table again and I was out 4 thou on one side ot the table. When I > originally trammed it (yesterday) it was right on the money. I > tightened the column nut as per Nicks suggestion of chocking down on > the wrench and giving it all that I could but not enough that I over > torgued it, so I know it was tight. I checked the spindle head and it > was as tight as could be. The gibs are tight enough that it does take > a bit of effort to raise and lower the head. They actually may be a > bit to tight. I have the new spindle head for the ER-16 collets. > It shouldn't have changed from when I first trammed it. Any ideas as > to why? Thanks John There are a number of possibilities... 1) x axis gibs are loose and the table rises and falls depending on how far out the stepper (or workpiece) is off the center of the mill. 1a) ditto on the y-axis 2) the dovetail mounting plate the headstock attaches to is loose, or is not parallel to the z-axis 3) the headstock is loose 4) error in initial tramming 5) column wasn't tight enough and shifted (may have had crud in between mounting surfaces) 6) indicator mount isn't rigid enough, indicator has problems 7) while the z-axis gib is tight, the two clamping shoes on either side of the z-axis are loose and cause the z-axis to slop around 8) something else I'm not thinking of... See our homepage at www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Re: How can I measure backlash in Taig? [taigtools] Posted by: "Tony Jeffree" tonyx~xxjeffree.co.uk Date: Sat Mar 3, 2007 2:14 am ((PST)) GB - Answers interspersed... At 08:27 03/03/2007, you wrote: >I have a Taig CNC 2019 4 axis with Mach3 and I need to know: >- what is the best and easy way to measure backlash for this machine >for all axis - X,Y,Z and A? >- what do I need for that? I have a caliper and a dial indicator. Use your dial indicator. Set it up to measure deflection in the direction that interests you (X for example). Jog the X axis a few mm in the + direction, then note the position of the indicator. Set the jog rate to as small a value as you can, then jog in the - direction, and note how far you have to jog before the dial reading starts to change. That distance is the measured backlash. >- which is the "normal", acceptable backlash for Taig? I have mine adjusted so that the backlash is less than a motor half-step - i.e., less than 0.125 of a thou. You are unlikely to achieve that with a Taig in standard form though see below. >- how I can reduce backlash in my machine? Take a look here: http://www.jeffree.co.uk/ModelEngineering.html There are a couple of articles on my latest conversion/upgrade there - the first part deals with mechanical improvements. >- what do I need to check? Need to check tightness of gibs on all 3 axes, but as indicated in my article, the most benefit is gained from proper adjustment of the bearing pre-load and replacement of Taig's rather crude drive couplers with proper zero backlash couplings. >- what backlash value do you have in your machine? None that I can measure. Regards, Tony ------- Re: How can I measure backlash in Taig? Posted by: "Jason" wgleasonx~xxcox.net Date: Wed Mar 7, 2007 9:47 am ((PST)) 1) Set the dial indicator up at one end of the axis you are looking to check. Nice and parallel. 2) Move the axis a little bit in the direction of the indicator -- a half inch or so to make sure all backlash is out before you start. This is vitally important or backlash could alter your results!!! NAd during the following steps do make sure you do not make any movements other than stated. 3) Carefully zero the on the indicator and make sure it is still against the mill table. Zeroing the indicator can be avoided if you don't mind doing the math but I find it best to start at "0" to avoid errors and make it easy. 4) In step mode move the axis .5 inches towards the indicator. 5) Move it away from the indicator by .5 inches. If there is any backlash, the indicator will not return to "0" and the number you are left with is the backlash. ------- Re: 2019CR disassembly [taigtools] Posted by: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" felicex~xxcasco.net Date: Sat Mar 3, 2007 10:03 am ((PST)) plinker41 wrote: > I need to inspect the z axis leadscrew nut. What is the best way to > get the z axis apart? Slide it up off the rails or take the shoes off > and move it away from the rail in the y axis direction? cheers fred You have two options. One is to lower it all the way down the table until it disengages from the nut (you will probably remove the headstock and motor for this), remove the side clamps and pull off the front. Or you can support the slide and unbolt the z-axis leadscrew bracket and unscrew it off the nut, then slide the z axis off. The first one means that the leadscrew will not lose any positional alignment, as well as probably avoid accidentally damaging the leadscrew. See our homepage at www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- NOTE TO FILE: There is an interesting conversation about tramming a mill in the Sherline group's archives starting in March 2007. While the subject of tramming/alignment has been recorded several times in the Sherline and Taig mill files on my site, part of this new conversation was specific to the proper use of dial indicators (or dial test indicators) for tramming and those portions have been recorded on this site in the file "Indicating and Measuring" starting March 12, 2007. Well worth a look for some new tips. ------- New to machining, Taig? [taigtools] Posted by: "justinreeves16" justinreeves16x~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue May 1, 2007 8:48 am ((PDT)) Hello, I am new to the art of machining. I have been looking at the small lathes on the market and was referred to the Taig. The project I am using it for is a dental handpiece; it will run on a micro cylinder 0.3 to 0.7". I will need to make the head(centered in round stock or bar, and off-center drilled and threaded holes for mounting, on both sides of the project. Do you think the Taig has the precision and the tooling available to do this type of project? If so will I also need a mill to drill and tap the off-centered bolt holes (similar to the head on a single cylinder gas motor head)? Thank you. ------- Re: New to machining, Taig? Posted by: "jim matheson" d_fexx~xxsympatico.ca Date: Tue May 1, 2007 8:59 am ((PDT)) That sounds do-able, you will just need a 4 jaw chuck for the off center drilling. You know if you start this you might never escape though, right? ------- Re: New to machining, Taig? Posted by: "David Robertson" davidr415x~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue May 1, 2007 10:33 am ((PDT)) Justin.. welcome... Just a comment. The machine itself is capable of great accuracy with a properly skilled operator. Accuracy is more a function of the person running the machine than the machine itself. Notice I didn't say "the machine doesn't matter".. it does.. but the Taig is up to the task. As you explore your project you need to be asking as many questions about technique for achieving accuracy as about which tools to use. David ------- Re: New to machining, Taig? Posted by: "benedict-listx~xxhawaii.rr.com" Date: Tue May 1, 2007 2:19 pm ((PDT)) .7" is well within the capability of the Taig for most materials. Judging from the handpieces I've got I'm guessing you're talking about aluminum. If you're thinking about another material, let us know. Straightforward turning should be no problem. A bolt hole pattern is also doable. Lots of ways to go about it. I'll go into two ways I might tackle it in a sec. > Do you think the Taig has the precision and the tooling available to do > this type of project? Yep! > If so will I also need a mill to drill and tap the off centered bolt > holes (similar to the head on a single cylinder gas motor head)? Probably not, but it depends. The chucks on the Taig can easily take a 1" diameter piece of stock. But it'll butt up against the face of the chuck. It won't fit down the spindle. This is fine for the outside turning (put the part between centers and you're guaranteed to have a part concentric to the center holes you drilled at either end). The bolt hole circle might be a more interesting project. I'm guessing you mean to put these at one end of a long piece? (Correct me if I'm wrong.) The big catch with this is that you'll have a lot of overhang. If precision is of the utmost, it's going to be a tough setup to do using a four jaw and offsetting the part. (I'm not knocking the technique, mind you. This is how I did all the drill work on my first steam engine! But my parts were a lot shorter than a dental handpiece.) Another way to do this would be to leave it between centers and use some sort of an index plate. Nick Carter used to sell index plates, and may still do so (I hope he does... I love mine.) It had 60 holes in it, so you could do any factor of 60 for indexing. If you have a Foredom, Dremel, or some other rotary tool you can stick on the cross-slide, you can use it as an auxiliary drilling spindle and drill your bolt hole circle while indexing the part with the lathe headstock. This takes care of overhang, but the clearance between the auxiliary spindle and the tailstock may be an issue. Another way to do this would be to take the headstock off your lathe, mount it vertically on a drill press, and do the indexing that way. It'd be more prone to flexure, harder to set up, etc., but it's another way to tackle the problem. Another way to do this would be to make a drill jig. Take a flattish piece of oversized stock, bore out a pocket that'd be a snug slip fit over the end of your handpiece, and put your bolt hole circle in that using the same indexing setup. When you finish the work on your handpiece, slip the drill jig over the end and secure it (I'm hand-waving at this point because I don't know the details of your design). Drill through the holes in the drill jig, and you get your bolt hole circle in the end of your handpiece. If you can't find an indexing plate and don't feel like making one, this can also be done using trigonometry. Get the vertical milling slide and mount the stub of material for your drill jig on this. Find the center of the material and call that (0,0). Work out the X,Y coordinates of each of your holes, and drill using the lathe headstock and drill chuck adapter. With drill jig in hand, finish up the same way as the last technique. Lotsa possibilities. But yeah, the Taig should be able to do it. Tom ------- Re: New to machining, Taig? Posted by: "justin reeves" justinreeves16x~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue May 1, 2007 6:33 pm ((PDT)) OK now I know the machine is capable for the project. The only thing I noticed between the Taig and the Sherline with my "minimal" knowledge of lathes was that the Taig doesn't do threading, correct. I will have to make a needle valve, will using tap and die work for doing something like this, or as always your recommendations for threading a piece at the rear of its length. Also the cylinder and the head bore need to be as smooth as possible; what technique and tools do you recommend? I am hoping to use stainless steel, mainly due to internal wear of the cylinder and an internal sliding valve system. And it being Autoclavable without corrosion. I have seen a lot of devices like this have Bronze bushings; any opinions on a different material for the head and cylinder, or even for the sliding valve? [LATER MSG} I'm hoping to use stainless. The piece will not be that long, it is different from a standard piece. Here is a reference to size and workings and materials. http://www.airgraver.com/index1.htm There will only be 4 bolts. ------- Re: New to machining, Taig? Posted by: "benedict-listx~xxhawaii.rr.com" Date: Tue May 1, 2007 6:51 pm ((PDT)) > the Taig doesn't do threading, correct. That's more or less dead-on. The tailstocks are different as well. Taig uses a lever headstock, which is great for getting in and out of a hole quickly. The Sherline tailstock is a leadscrew-type. Slower for deep holes, but from what Jerry Kieffer has said it'll do things with small holes that the Taig tailstock won't. I've tried to replicate some of his stuff on a Taig, and after snapping several very small drills I have to agree. > I will have to make a needle valve Tap and die would work fine. There are thread cutting options for the Taig, but not right out of the box. You'd either have to roll your own or get a third-party system. Nick Carter has at least one review on his web site. > Also the cylinder, and the head bore need to be as smooth as possible > what technique and tools do you recommend. My knee-jerk reaction would be reaming and lapping. > I am hoping to use stainless steel Makes good sense. Looking at the URL for the Lindsay AirGraver, I think the size you're talking about is within reach on the Taig, even in stainless. > I have seen a lot of devices like this have Bronze bushings, any > opinions on a different material for the head and cylinder, or even for > the sliding valve? Bronze is nice because it's hard as a rock and wears well with steel. As far as autoclavability goes, I really can't say. There are ceramics you can get, but I have zip zero experience with them. We used this funky specialty plastic for a project at work, but I doubt if it's operating-room-ready. Neat project! Tom ------- Re: New to machining, Taig? Posted by: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" felicex~xxcasco.net Date: Tue May 1, 2007 8:11 pm ((PDT)) > Im hoping to use stainlaess. > The project I am using it for is a dental handpiece it will run on a > > micro cylinder .3 to .7" Well, it was a different sort of project, but I just machined a 316 stainless steel ring with a bore of .786 http://mechanicalphilosopher.blogspot.com/2007/04/machining-stai nless-steel-ring.html (This is part of a series of experiments that will be boiled down into a general Taig jewelry webpage btw.) > Nick Carter used to sell index plates I still do! http://www.cartertools.com/cipk.html ------- Re: New to machining, Taig? Posted by: "n2562001" jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net Date: Wed May 2, 2007 7:54 am ((PDT)) Leon wrote: > I just had what seems to be a good idea! How about making some sort of > adapter to hold a chuck on the carriage, or the milling attachment, for > very small drills? Leon Leon: I have a very early Taig Lathe in my collection that has no tailstock by design, with a drill chuck mounted to the tool post for drilling. It seems to me that some other Older small lathes may have used this design but I can`t remember for sure. At any rate at first it seems like a clever money saving design but has a number of issues in use. First it is real pain and very time consuming to try to align a chuck in three directions every time it is to be used. Second it is not near as accurate as one might think. All carriage and cross slides in all brands are designed to be accurate and repeatable with downward pressure on the lathe tool. If the gibbs are adjusted for free movement there will be some slight upward movement of the assembly if pressure is applied to do so, such as drilling and even just movement of the assembly itself. While certainly not enough to be concerned about for general drilling or machining, with a milling slide it can easily effect critical alignment for micro drilling. Adjusting gibbs to eliminate this possibility to protect expensive drills and tooling each time used gets old fast. As mentioned in the past: for one time uses, micro drilling on a Taig lathe is possible with proper setup. The Tailstock needs to be clamped into position and not moved for each setup. Then adjust the Ram for free movement and heavily and thoroughly lubricate it with motor oil to center it in the tailstock. Next center drill and drill a piece of stock held in the tailstock drill chuck to the same size as the micro drill shank. Install the drill in the hole for drilling. Next remove the tailstock lever that is not sensitive enough for micro drilling and operate the Ram with your fingers. While not an ideal setup it will work in most cases for that one time need. Jerry Kieffer ------- Newbie Mill Question - What's This Bit For? Posted by: "Rachael" katzengx~xxhotmail.com Date: Sun May 6, 2007 7:42 am ((PDT)) I'm just setting up my DSLS3000 mill and so far all is good. But I'm making some modifications and I've encountered a part of the machine that's in the way of what I want to do, which leads me to my question. On the top of the Y saddle, mounted vertically, right in the center front, is a 3/8" diameter (give or take) steel peg that's almost as tall as the table (about an inch). What does it do and why is it there? It doesn't seem to have any purpose that I can see. Is it necessary for anything? The peg is in the way of where I want to mount the auto tool length setter I'm building and I want to remove it... but I figured I'd probably want to know what the peg is for before I remove it. I couldn't manage to pull it out, even after removing the table locking screw, so I guess I'm wondering how to remove it as well as what I'll mess up if I do. Thanks for the help, Rachael ------- Re: Newbie Mill Question - What's This Bit For? Posted by: "Alex Holden" alexx~xxlinuxhacker.org Date: Sun May 6, 2007 7:51 am ((PDT)) Take a look at this thread in the archive: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/taigtools/message/21915 Alex Holden http://www.alexholden.net/ Note TO FILE: In the above thread on 01 Oct 2006 Nick Carter wrote: > Re: [taigtools] what's that part? It is as Alex said a post for stops on the x-axis. It's a vestigial feature as Taig never made x axis stops. You can remove the gib locking screw that goes through it (for CNC you want to remove it anyway, no need to lock the table w/CNC) then you can pull it out with pliers, you may need to apply a little heat with a heat gun to the aluminum to get it off. You can also press it out but you will have to remove the slide. If it's really stuck you may need to cut it off with a dremel (all warnings apply, shield against grit, etc). < ------- Machining circumference of flywheels? [taigtools] Posted by: "skypup50" SKYPUP50x~xxhotmail.com Date: Sat Jun 9, 2007 3:53 pm ((PDT)) I have 2 cast flywheels to machine for an upshur farm engine. The wheels will clear the bed of the lathe but the tool and toolpost cannot be retracted far enough to do the circumference (outside rim) of the flywheel. I also have a taig milling machine and sherline rotary table. Can the outside of the wheel be done on the milling machine? What would be the best set up. Thanks in advance. ------- Re: Machining circumference of flywheels? Posted by: "Rich Crook" richcrook9418x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Jun 9, 2007 4:47 pm ((PDT)) Mount the rotary table flat on the mill; mount an oversize pin in the center & mill its diameter down by turning the rotary table until it *just* fits into the flywheel's center hole. Mount the flywheel on the pin, clamp it down, & mill the outer edge as needed. This will get the circumference as concentric as possible to the center hole. I've done large diameter "turnings" that are too big for the lathe this way a number of times. It works very nicely. Another tip: mounting a large, stiff plate on the rotary table will allow you to do parts that are far bigger in diameter than the rotary table. I once did some ~3' dia rings on a Bridgeport with a 12" rotary table this way, using a plate made by gluing 2 layers of 3/4" plywood together, then surfacing it with 1/4" acrylic plastic. Bolt it onto the rotary table, flycut the plastic to get a flat surface, & it's good to go. Rich ------- Re: Machining circumference of flywheels? Posted by: "Rich Crook" richcrook9418x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Jun 10, 2007 12:17 pm ((PDT)) 6/10/2007, you wrote: >-Rich Thanks for the help. I wonder if I could mount a 3/8-16 bolt > in the threads located in the table center and then just mill > the bolt to the correct diameter? If you can fit some sort of locknut into the underside (to keep the bolt from moving), that would work. Or use a shouldered bolt that seats in the counter-bore of the table above the threads... (probably easier.) The key is to make sure the bolt doesn't move at all while milling it, or when mounting the flywheel onto it. Rich ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following conversation is about a CNC version of the Taig mill, but most of the problems and tips apply to a manual version also. ------- Mill adjustments [taigtools] Posted by: "Chris Ghent" cghentx~xxtpg.com.au Date: Thu Nov 22, 2007 3:27 am ((PST)) A week ago I wrote in with a story about broken cutters. In the week since I have pulled the Taig apart and lubricated and adjusted it, well sort of. More on that later. I fired it up today, and when cutting it sounded quiet compared to before. It was easy to imagine all that slop, and I certainly found some, allowing the job to bounce off the cutter by a few thou. Now it was quiet it must be right, right? I also tried different settings, faster feed, less depth etc. Nothing cut quite as cleanly as what I had been doing before. I persevered and then after about 45 minutes, two cutters went in quick succession. At this point I don't know where to start, except to go back and cycle through the adjustments again. I find this difficult task, because of lack of immediate feedback. The problem is not so much in the antibacklash nuts, they are relatively straightforward, though I find the suggested 90° back off to be a long way and they seem to work OK backing off about 30°. It is a little tricky to do two of them, once one is done and applying the tiniest amount of friction it affects the other. Nevertheless I think I have that part of the equation sussed. The other part is the gibs, and I do find these difficult. It is hard to get feedback about when they are in the right place. I push the axis backwards and forwards by hand looking for it to go all the way in both directions without any binding, and if it doesn't bind I wind it up a little and try again. When it starts to bind I back it off to the last place it didn't, but usually find that it does not feel the same as it did in that position on the way up. I also do not know how much hand pressure needed is too much. The Z axis in my mill is where I think I made the greatest improvement, but I am not confident of the final position. There is a slight "threadiness" to the feel of it when sliding by hand. Any looser and it feels sloppy. If anyone has any tips about adjusting the gibs I'd like to hear it. How do you sense the need for adjustment? What are the signs it has taken place, or that it is right? How do you know if you have gone too far? What would be a typical adjustment in terms of °s of allen key movement? Are you also a beginner who is unsure of how to do mill adjustments well? What are your questions..? Best wishes Chris ------- Re: Mill adjustments Posted by: "Rachael" katzengx~xxhotmail.com Date: Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:41 am ((PST)) I'm not a great expert in adjusting machine tools, by any means; but I can say that the Taig is not the first mill I have adjusted. I also found it to be a very frustrating little beast to get adjusted right. I found that when my mill was new, despite being told a lot of stories about factory adjustment, hand lapping, and whatnot, my mill was pretty loose - way over 3 mil backlash and easily observable slop in the ways. The thing is, when I tried to adjust it, a lot of funny things happened. First, the line between having a decent feel and binding up solid was so thin... insert metaphor here. If I backed it off a tiny bit to stop it binding, it immediately went loose. I too use very small cutters (typically 0.5mm bits on deep cuts) and I need the machine tight if it is going to work. What I ended up doing was adjusting it to the just starting to bind point, but instead of loosening it up from there, I left it. Then I lowered the max rapid speed in Mach so the steppers had more torque and set the machine to run on an exercise program (no part) and work itself in. After 30 minutes of that, it would be all loose again; so I would repeat the process. Eventually, I got the jibs to a very nice point where they seemed to stop loosening up... basically, my particular example needed a lot of run-in before it started to settle in. The anti-backlash nuts on that machine are terrible. I know some people say that they can adjust down to a few tenths on the backlash and I congratulate them on getting a very nice example. My mill has really lousy screws (relatively speaking) and if I adjust to less than 1-2 mils backlash, the nuts will bind somewhere along the way. And if I adjust to just before bind on the tightest part of the screw, then some other part of the screw will have 1-2mils backlash. Yes, I always run my screws full length on every program to keep wear even, yes it's been this way since new, and yes I've eliminated every other source of backlash, including replacing the stupid plastic stick couplers with proper Oldham couplings. I use the backlash comp in Mach, without CV mode, do deal with it dimensionally. And in terms of not having the part jump, once the ways were adjusted nice and snug, there was enough resistance in them to hold the table still for the very small forces of the tiny cutters I use. Bottom line is that I'm not happy with that aspect of my Taig at all - great machine in many respects - but at least the one I got is near to impossible to adjust as tight as I would like for very small work. It may be that the Taig is just one size too big (in an inexpensive machine) for very small work and something like a Proxxon miniature machine would have better precision for real small cutters. Anyway, like you, I would welcome a discusion on the topic and would happily take any useful suggestions from more seasoned machinists. Rachael ------- Re: Mill adjustments Posted by: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" felicex~xxcasco.net Date: Thu Nov 22, 2007 11:30 am ((PST)) It is hard to talk about adjustments as so much depends on "feel" which varies from user to user. I would say that the things that help the most are: 1) Good way lubricant. While Taig recommends ATF, and it works ok, in talking to Taig we both agree that if you can get some light or medium way oil, and oil frequently, it will go a long way towards making the mill work smoother. Using greases, sprays and other odd products might or might not make things work better or worse. Make sure the screw is lubed well with either very light (very light!) grease or oil. 1a.) The mill runs fine all summer, suddenly fall comes around and the mill starts binding in your poorly heated shop...aluminum expands and contracts more than you think, and temperature really effects lubricant as well. 2) Always move your work area around. Milling in the same spot over and over will wear your ways relatively, which can cause binding in the less worn areas. 3) Really take the time to understand the push-push nature of gib adjustments on x and z, and make sure the clamping shoes on z are snug with hand pressure when the motor is not mounted. Y-axis also takes a bit of finesse, as there are two different adjustments, up and sideways, each of which causes different action on the gib. Try the gibs tightness by turning the screws with your hand, x and y should move easily with little resistance, z also with the motor not mounted, and with the motor mounted it should still move down easily. 4) With aftermarket controls that are prone to resonance (like the Xylotex, excellent generally but sometimes you do get resonance), it's easy to confuse a resonance jam with a slide tightness jam. I've been bitten by this more than once. 5) Don't expect too much of your mill! Generally working to less than .001" will result in heartbreak (not always, but). 6) Really take the time to read the Mach manual, the latest version has a number of changes in the general config menu, including such oddities as Shuttle Acceleration which bears on backlash. Spend some time cruising the Mach forum when something seems odd. This is a complex system of mill, cutter, material, contro, stepper, software, your shop electricity supply, PC and g-code that has many little things that can introduce odd results. Really get to know motor tuning, step & direction pulse lengths, acceleration, etc. For your G-code/cam software, make sure it's not generating odd little moves (Bobcad always does this to me) that trip the mill up. I had an error where the mist timer I used was causing extra steps on my z-axis - I moved it to a different circuit and the problem went away, but only after doing a whole slew of adjustments that had nothing to do with the problem. Electrical noise, having cables cross each other and induce secondary currents, etc can all trip you up. So not really a good answer, but this is what I have found is worth looking into. Happy Thanksgiving! See our homepage at www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Re: Mill adjustments Posted by: "Chris Ghent" cghentx~xxtpg.com.au Date: Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:04 am ((PST)) > Y-axis also takes a bit of finesse, as there are > two different adjustments, up and sideways, > each of which causes different action on the gib. Nick, his really threw me, I only see one adjustment, the push/pull with the allen screws on the gib, where is the second..? Chris ------- Re: Mill adjustments Posted by: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" felicex~xxcasco.net Date: Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:23 am ((PST)) There are the screws that push (just push) the brass vee gib against the y-axis ways, and there are the screws that hold the plate that retains the gib from beneath. While the action of the screws that push it directly against the y-axis ways are primary, the bottom screws effect the tightness of the pocket that holds the gib and also can effect alignment of the gib with the slide. [Later msg] I should add that the 2nd picture here shows the screws: http://www.cartertools.com/millset2.html While it doesn't seem that the bottom screws should effect anything, they actually do, so spend some time playing with them... If you have the locking screw on the bottom, that also effects things as it can push the gib up to the point that it will bind. See our homepage at www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Re: Mill adjustments Posted by: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" felicex~xxcasco.net Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 9:57 am ((PST)) Chris Ghent wrote: > Ok, I see them, how would you interpret their use..? If they were tight, > what would they do, if they were loose, what then? I can see that if > they were too tight the gib adjustments would have difficulty moving the > gib, especially back out. Do you loosen them, adjust the gibs and then > tighten them, or is there a dynamic adjustment process..? Chris Hi Chris, I slacken those bottom bolts and loosen the gib, then snug up the bottom bolts "a tad" and adjust the side screws to push the gib in slowly. Then I adjust the bottom screws again to snug up just "a whisker" more. Again, it all comes down to your own sense of feel. See our homepage at www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Belts on milling machine [taigtools] Posted by: "Wally and Otter" walnotrx~xxhotmail.com Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:42 am ((PST)) Does anyone else have as much trouble with keeping belts running on the milling machine? I have lost count of the number of replacement belts I have gone through. Yes, I know the pulleys have to be aligned and spend a lot of time making sure they are. It begs the question though, just how close is close enough? Must the pulleys be EXACTLY parallel or can there be say, .010" misalignment? .005"? I don't know how to get it much closer than that. I have even gone as far as make a motor mount post with an adjustment screw to move the motor small fractions of an inch, but still have problems. What am I missing? Is this just a design flaw with this otherwise fine machine? If enough people are having problems, perhaps we could get the Taig folks to take another look at this problem. Can you hear my frustration level? Steve C ------- Re: Belts on milling machine Posted by: "Greg McFadden" greg.mcfaddenx~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:17 am ((PST)) Another thing to check besides vertical alignement is twist (you can adjust that a bit). If there is twist, I have trouble. ------- Re: Belts on milling machine Posted by: "Wally and Otter" walnotrx~xxhotmail.com Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:42 am ((PST)) Yes, twist is also carefully adjusted. It seems to me this shouldn't be such a problem. I have spent my life troubleshooting and working to pretty high tolerances but this has had me stumped for far too long. Steve C ------- Re: Belts on milling machine Posted by: "Rachael" katzengx~xxhotmail.com Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:58 am ((PST)) You are not alone - I burn up a belt every month or two, despite being told they should be good for 3000 hours and despite my very best efforts at alignment. I run the highest speed (11k) all the time, although I doubt that has much to do with it. And I realize that being a mechanical engineer doesn't really qualify me to set up machine tools, but it should at least help me figure it out... and I'll admit that I am stumped. I wonder sometimes if perhaps the pulley grooves are not exactly the right profile. The correct tension setting is also something of a mystery... I find the belts last better if I keep them pretty slack, even though it causes some vibration that I'd rather not have. Rachael K. ------- Re: Belts on milling machine Posted by: "Greg McFadden" greg.mcfaddenx~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:55 pm ((PST)) Oddly enough, my belts last longer if they are tight...(probably because I tend to run at slow speeds and if they slip, they burn). Honestly, I am thinking that it is time to go to a variable speed dc motor with a larger belt. I am tired of belt issues. Greg ------- Belts on milling machine Posted by: "Chris Ghent" cghentx~xxtpg.com.au Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:06 am ((PST)) This won't help your frustration level, but when I bought mine three years ago I asked for a spare belt, and the dealer said, you won't need it, and I haven't. I have realigned the motor a couple of times but mainly for reasons of noise and I only squint at it to get it right so. 010" misalignment is a given. I would certainly have run it 10 or 20 hours with much more misaligned pulleys. I keep the belt reasonably loose. When locked off, I like to be able to move the centres of the belt towards each other by .5" each. This suggests I may have a more tolerant belt than your one. Maybe if I trash the one it came with the replacements will die quicker. Now if only I could get the thing to stop breaking cutters so quickly... Chris ------- Re: Belts on milling machine Posted by: "robtl1067" playnthrux~xxadelphia.net Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:49 am ((PST)) "Can you hear my frustration level?" Yes and how!! I had this same problem went thru about 2.5 million belts with everyone telling me how they have had there belts since Jesus was a private. Aligned the pulleys to within .000000001 (spent hours aligning the pulleys etc). What finally ended up working was replacing the headstock. I bought a complete headstock from Nick and have had the same belt on the machine ever since. I can't tell you why, I just know that it worked. Good luck ------- Re: Belts on milling machine Posted by: "Lester Caine" lesterx~xxlsces.co.uk Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:01 am ((PST)) I can probably agree with you there, but are we talking the old style collets or the ER16? THAT spindle does seem to be more stable although I'm only seeing the older ones out on customers sites. I've got a stack of belts in stock, but demand is fairly low, and when a problem does pop up playing with the set-up has fixed it. I've ended up with using the high speed spindle most of the time, so no belt at all :) Lester Caine - G8HFL ------- Re: Belts on milling machine Posted by: "Lester Caine" lesterx~xxlsces.co.uk Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:40 pm ((PST)) Bertho Boman wrote: > Lester, What high speed spindle are you referring to? Obviously, > I missed something. TIA Bertho http://home.lsces.co.uk/ModelEngineersDigitalWorkshop/artic les/read.php?article_id=20 Lester Caine - G8HFL ------- Z-Axis Problem [taigtools] Posted by: "Evan" yoyowzrdx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Dec 15, 2007 9:47 pm ((PST)) I'm trying to adjust the gibs on my mill, but unless they're clamped all the way down (to the point that it isn't functional) the Z saddle will twist over the axis, changing the cutter's X and Y position. There is a point that it won't shift that much but when I change the direction that I'm turning the Z handle, the head will twist too. It's certainly not backlash since the head is fine in the Z axis, it just twists. The machine is brand new and it has box ways on the Z. ------- Re: Z-Axis Problem Posted by: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" felicex~xxcasco.net Date: Sat Dec 15, 2007 10:20 pm ((PST)) Adjust the gibs with the motor off of the mill. Make sure the two clamping shoes that hold the z-axis to the slide are tight with hand pressure (hold thema aginst the slid with your hand and tighten down). Then adjust the position (because it is by adjusting the position of the gib that it is tightened) of the z-gib until it is correct. Then mount the motor on the mill. http://www.cartertools.com/millset2.html and http://www.cartertools.com/millset.html Show how to do it. See our homepage at www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Re: Adjusting leadscrew nuts [taigtools] Posted by: "Bertho Boman" boman01x~xxvinland.com Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 8:20 am ((PST)) From: Bertho Boman Sent: Sunday, February 10 >It is easy to adjust the X nut but please tell me there is a better >way than having to remove the column to get to the Y nut. Sorry, I posted too quickly so I might as well answer my own post since others have expressed difficulties of adjusting the milling machine. It is easy to adjust the gibs but very difficult to know how much since there is no manual feedback like turning the handwheel. The same is also true for the leadscrew nuts. It turns out there is a simple solution to both: Remove the two mounting screws for each stepper and carefully using the controller run the motors so they can be removed from the nuts. Be careful to keep them aligned so there is no binding in the nuts. Once the stepper and leadscrew is removed, the axis can be slid back and forth by hand and the gibs adjusted for proper drag and minimum play. Afterwards, slide the axis off completely and carefully run the leadscrew into the nuts and then run it back and forth while holding the stepper in the hand. This allows a very easy feel to the amount of friction there is in the nut. Gradually tighten up the nuts, run the stepper across the full length to check that it is not too tight. Afterwards, slide the components together, remount the steppers. It worked out very well and it is much simpler than I expected. The thing to watch for is not to cross thread the nuts. Bertho ------- Re: Adjusting leadscrew nuts Posted by: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 8:03 pm ((PST)) Having struggled with some frustrating y-axis issues, I just made up a temporary handwheel, which I put onto the rear shaft of my dual-shaft steppers and use with the controller off. It's not perfect, but much better than axis stalling/binding/nasty issues I was having before. Eventually I'll make up a full set (right now I just have one handwheel to share among the three axes) and balance them so they can be installed at all times. Michael ------- Re: Adjusting leadscrew nuts Posted by: "Bertho Boman" boman01x~xxvinland.com Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:54 pm ((PST)) I wish I had that easy option but on the DSLS 3000 there are shaft encoders already mounted there. It is a good idea though for those that can add the handwheel. Bertho ------- Taig CNC Mill as a CNC Lathe [taigtools] Posted by: "Daniel Gutzwiller" dagutzwillerx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 12:05 pm ((PST)) I don't know if you guys have seen this... My jaw is still on the floor. It never occurred to me to mount the spindle to the table to create a CNC lathe... watch the video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Munq_hXxTs ------- Re: Taig CNC Mill as a CNC Lathe Posted by: "Jeff Demand" jdemandx~xxgmavt.net Date: Sun Feb 10, 2008 12:48 pm ((PST)) Neat trick !!! And you can use a tail stock. I have seen a video with the work mounted in the spindle (normal vertical position) and multiple tools mounted on the table, no tail stock. As many ways to do similar jobs as there are people, even after discounting the wrong ones there still are a lot of good solutions :-) Jeff ------- Re: Taig Mill spindle speed reduction widget? [taigtools] Posted by: "Ken Cline" clinex~xxfrii.com Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 8:09 pm ((PST)) On 19 Feb 2008, at 8:04 PM, steel2chips wrote: > I'm about to use a 2" slotting saw on 6061 bar stock. I'm concerned > about the cutting speed. Is there an after-market speed reduction > widget available? According to Machinery's handbook, saws can operate at much faster speeds than end mills. Over 6000 sfm for moderate depth cuts in aluminum. By my reckoning, you can spin the saw at 10000 RPM without exceeding the 6000+ sfm sawing speed. For what its worth, I run my slitting saw at the slowest spindle speed (1200 RPM). I just tried the speed and it works for me. BTW, I discovered - with no outside assistance - that backwards saw blades cut very poorly and turn the arbor wickedly tight on the spindle. Ken ------- Blue switch box acting up [taigtools] Posted by: "ackermanpens" charlesx~xxackermanpens.com Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:03 pm ((PST)) Has anyone run into problems with the big blue switch box that comes with the Taig lathe? I get an unreliable flow of electricity to the lathe, and I suspect it's the switch box - the box with the switch that lets you turn the lathe off and on. All the other connections are tight. If the lathe cuts out, all I have to do is shake the box, or re-position, and the lathe comes back on. Sometimes I can go for half an hour with no problem - other times, it cuts off and on repeatedly for five minutes. Hard to figure out. ------- Re: Blue switch box acting up Posted by: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" felicex~xxcasco.net Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:27 pm ((PST)) Well, if it's the lightswitch type, open it up (unplugged!) and replace the switch, see if there's chips or something in there as well. It could just be a loose wire in there too. See our homepage at www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Re: Blue switch box acting up Posted by: "luv2bsailin" luv2bsailinx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 9:44 pm ((PST)) There's a pretty big surge load when the motor starts. That will tend to be hard on switches. It's even worse with the pullies at high speed. That said, I don't think it's a common failure on the Taigs. My lathe had a flakey connection in the connector that sticks out of the switch box, but I haven't failed a switch yet in 2 years of regular use. I'd buy a good quality switch and do a "wiggle test" to make sure the trouble isn't a connection somewhere. Jim ------- Re: Blue switch box acting up Posted by: "Clive Foster" clive_fosterx~xxtalk21.com Date: Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:24 pm ((PST)) > Make sure the switch you are using has a horsepower rating. Ordinary > house switches are not designed for motors or other inductive loads. > The cheap switches are not suitable for motor use. Jim Eckman Folks: If there is a motor involved its best to use an NVR (No Volt Release) switch. Firstly these things are always relay/contactor based so you get fast action on good contacts minimising the burning problem. Secondly, and far more important, if the power goes out for any reason the switch goes to off and stays off. Can be anything from embarrassing to 'kin dangerous if a machine unilaterally starts up whilst you are trying to figure why the thing stopped! Still on the safety side it's my practice to wire the machine light direct to the incomer power switch. That way if the machine has power and can run you have a nice bright warning light making the potential danger obvious. Ordinary positive action switches and machine tools don't mix. Ever. Even the most careful of people make mistakes and forget. Usually when the &$x~xxx~xx% thing isn't doing what it ought to which is when you are most likely to have hands or other vital bits in the danger zone with your mind on the problem not safety. Bin there, dunnit (and with something much more dangerous than a machine tool) but wised up in time to suffer only bad "what-if" memories. Clive ------- Re: Ball Screws [taigtools] Posted by: "Tony Jeffree" tonyx~xxjeffree.co.uk Date: Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:22 pm ((PST)) At 20:30 20/02/2008, you wrote: >Can anyone point me toward a set of ball screws (for controlling >backlash) on my taig CNC mill that are drop in replacements to the >stock leadscrews? I don't believe such a thing exists. The problem is that the ballnuts inevitably occupy more space than the standard feednuts so the conversions I have heard of that use ballscrews involved machining the mill components to male room for the nuts. Also, bear in mind that unless you pay for anti-backlash nuts, simply changing to ballscrews doesn't necessarily fix backlash. I found with my mill that it was possible to achieve zero backlash with mods to the standard screws/bearings/couplers - see: http://www.jeffree.co.uk/pages/taigcncpt1.htm Regards, Tony ------- Re: new to Taig mill [taigtools] Posted by: "Rick Reyes" aztaigx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:24 pm ((PDT)) Angel Rodriguez wrote: > I would like to know if [a particular clamping kit] will work on the > Taig's mill table. Thanks, Rod If you're looking to make t-nuts, try using 1/2" x 1/4" flat stock aluminum. All you do is center punch your holes down the center of say a 12" length, drill and tap. I've used these for a couple of years now and have had no problems with them. If you have concerns about the number of threads that'll grab through the thickness, use a 1/4 - 28 tap instead of the 1/4 - 20. Again, I've had no problems with the 1/4 - 20 thread. I originally made my own 10-32 t-nuts like those from Hightech and others but realized that if you tend to wrench of them, they could possibly chew up the underside of the t-slot. Your choice, buy them or make them, aluminum or steel, I'm sure you'll be happy either way. Just one thought, we do aspire to make our own things and not have to rely on others to make them for us. Just a thought. Rick ------- Re: new to Taig mill Posted by: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:35 pm ((PDT)) When you make them, either use a plug tap and don't run it all the way through (leave one or two incomplete threads at the bottom) or take a center punch and deform the last thread. This will prevent the stud or bolt from going all the way through and chewing up the table. This is how the commercial clamping kits are made. ------- Re: new to Taig mill Posted by: "kd006" kd006x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Sep 20, 2008 9:42 am ((PDT)) I saw a good tip for deforming the threads someone used a ball bearing slightly larger than the hole to distort the threads. This saved any burrs from being formed by a center punch or chisel. Kristin ------- Re: new to Taig mill Posted by: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Sat Sep 20, 2008 1:41 pm ((PDT)) Yes, that is a good method, just be sure that you use a carbon or SS ball bearing and not a through hardened or carbide ball due to the potential for dangerous shattering when hit with a hammer. ------- Re: new to Taig mill Posted by: "kd006" kd006x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Sep 20, 2008 2:21 pm ((PDT)) One other thing I think I would do is drill a hole the size of the ball through a piece of scrap stock so I could hold it in place and not be chasing it under the bench or dark recesses of the shop should it bounce. Kristin ------- Re: new to Taig mill Posted by: "larrysx~xxteamlarry.com" Date: Sat Sep 20, 2008 2:39 pm ((PDT)) Why not just give it a good squeeze in a vise or an arbor press? The ball would still put the force where it's needed. ls ------- Re: new to Taig mill Posted by: "kd006" kd006x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Sep 20, 2008 2:59 pm ((PDT)) Larry, for one or two a vise may work. I was thinking more along the lines of a tooling plate with a hundred holes (which is where I saw the tip). Wish I had an arbor press, that would work fine and you could make a tool to fit the end of the rack just for that purpose. I have to add that to my "be on the lookout for" list at yard sales etc. or get one from harbor fright next order. Kristin ------- Kool Mist and rust? [taigtools] Posted by: "dennisjs" dennis.schisslerx~xxgmail.com Date: Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:18 pm ((PST)) Hello, I'm setting up my new Taig mill and had planned to use the Kool Mist 77 coolant w/ a mister. Then I see a paper within the Taig documentation that specifically says NOT to use a water-based coolant or you will cause rust and spindle bearing failures. Has anyone had rust issues using this coolant in a mister setup? Thanks! Dennis ------- Re: Kool Mist and rust? Posted by: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:21 pm ((PST)) I run this coolant in my setup and have never had a problem. KoolMist and most other soluble coolants have rust-preventing additives. I do wipe off the machine when I'm done. ------- Re: Question about Taig CNC Mill [taigtools] Posted by: "billshubert" billshubertx~xxgmail.com Date: Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:03 am ((PDT)) In taigtoolsx~xxyahoogroups.com, "kimcpherson" wrote: > What is the function of the 3/8" diameter post with the machine screw > threaded into it x~xx 90 degrees, that sits on the front of the mill, > in front of the way cover? Can I use the Mill with out the post, and > machine screw? Thanks for the help. Scott The screw that goes through the post is a positive lock for the X axis. You will never use it on a CNC machine. The post is a means for providing "steel" threads for the screw (instead of just the aluminum of the carriage body). You don't want to remove it (the post) because it will leave a hole that will allow chips to drop through onto the lead screw (besides, it's pressed in and a bitch to get out). I simply cut the post off with a hacksaw and filed it flush with the carriage body. ------- Re: Taig Mill Column Stiffener [taigtools] Posted by: "David Underwood" dave.underwoodx~xxsympatico.ca Date: Tue Aug 11, 2009 6:45 am ((PDT)) noisillator wrote: > I'm trying to "re-locate" an online site with an article on building > a column stiffener. Unfortunately, I didn't bookmark it. The article > showed a Taig column being supported with two diagonal members, one > on each side. Does this ring a bell for anyone? Incidentally, it's > NOT this article: > http://www.engineeringhobbyist.com/projects/completed/z_column_support/ I've seen a number of solutions, but it sounds like you're describing this one: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/taigtools/photos/album/193380218/pic/list Dave ------- Re: Taig Mill Column Stiffener Posted by: "Will Schmit" anchornmx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:10 am ((PDT)) Great solution. I just bought an 18 by 18 plate of 3/4" aluminum -- the stuff ain't cheap. I'll bet a project like that would set a guy back around $200 in parts. ------- thread on ER spindle [taigtools] Posted by: "greg.mcfadden" greg.mcfaddenx~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:01 am ((PDT)) What is the thread on the spindle of the the ER series mill spindle? thanks greg ------- Re: thread on ER spindle Posted by: "budman6899" wescott99x~xxhotmail.com Date: Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:39 am ((PDT)) Greg, those are: M22 x 1.5mm threads Dave ------- Re: thread on ER spindle Posted by: "budman6899" wescott99x~xxhotmail.com Date: Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:08 am ((PDT)) "greg.mcfadden" wrote: > Do you know, is that a standard? would any ER-16 nut work? Hi Greg: Actually I believe there are 2 different threads out there for ER16 collet nuts as I remember a discussion on here before about someone getting an ER 16 nut that did not fit. Hopefully they will chime in. Dave This was the thread I was refering to: Message #17205 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/taigtools/message/17205 Dave ------- Re: thread on ER spindle Posted by: "Ken Cline" clinex~xxfrii.com Date: Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:00 pm ((PDT)) On 27 Aug 2009, budman6899 wrote: > Leo, this is exactly why I gave the info for the original poster who > asked the question about the nuts to begin with. > I KNOW what the Taig spindles are but I wanted HIM to be aware of > the possibilty of another nut out there that HE may get confused by. A quick web search showed me that ER-16-M nuts are for mini ER-16 chucks, which use a sort of castellated round nut (requiring a special wrench) to provide minimum size for narrow clearance operations. Taig clearly uses the standard ER, not the mini. ------- Taig spindle thread - 3/4 -16 RELATED TO: Re: [taigtools] Re: thread Posted by: "Stan Stocker" skstockerx~xxcomcast.net Date: Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:28 pm ((PDT)) lhbakeland wrote: >> This nut is the same nut as on the Taig ER16 mill spindle. >> 3/4x16 is the proprietary thread on the Taig lathe and older >> Taig mills. Leo Well folks - sort of in the ballpark. 3/4-16 is not a proprietary thread, it is in fact very common. Quite a few smaller wood lathes (not just those based on Taig such as Bonnie Klein) use a 3/4-16 spindle. 3/4-10 is the NC thread in this size, 3/4-16 is the NF thread. The smaller ER16M is an M19X1 thread. The mini size ER16 holders are used for high speed or minimal clearance applications. Many catalogs and machining books don't even mention them, they are not an everyday jellybean item like standard ER16 hardware. It is just important if ordering closers to be aware that ER16 and ER16M are not the same thread as you never know what will show up on ebay or a clearance site. Cheers, Stan ------- Locking the Mill Spindle during indicating [taigtools] Posted by: "Dennis Schissler" dennis.schisslerx~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:07 am ((PDT)) Simple question: how do you all lock down your mill spindle when indicating? Thanks, Dennis ------- Re: Locking the Mill Spindle during indicating Posted by: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:46 am ((PDT)) Typically with the belt in a low speed setting the spindle has enough internal resistance that it doesn't spin. I generally try to keep my hands off the indicator when in use, so there aren't alot of reasons why it should want to spin. ------- Re: Locking the Mill Spindle during indicating Posted by: "Rick Kernell" rickk1x~xxcableone.net Date: Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:46 am ((PDT)) Dennis: Right now I use a piece of duct tape on the pulley and headstock. It works well enough, but I am in the process of building a clamp that sits in the grooves of the headstock and clamps the pulley. If you are interested, I will send photos when I am done. Rick Kernell ------- Re: Locking the Mill Spindle during indicating Posted by: "leeharrysouth" EDAVIS93x~xxComcast.Net Date: Fri Sep 25, 2009 5:20 pm ((PDT)) I use a piece of aluminum fabricated to fit it one of the channels on the headstock. The piece of aluminum (I think it is about 3/32 thick) simply slides into the channel and has a 10/32 hole taped into the opposite end. I put a piece of vinyl sheet against the pulley and hand snug the 10/32 screw against it to lock the pulley. You just barely snug the screw and it will hold the pully steady. lee ------- Re: Locking the Mill Spindle during indicating Posted by: "Mike Nicewonger" twmasterx~xxtwmaster.com Date: Fri Sep 25, 2009 6:29 pm ((PDT)) I am decidedly low tech. I just jamb a chunk of folded up cardboard between the pulley and the headstock. Mike N ------- How do you lubricate the x axis on a Taig cnc milling machine? [taigtools] Posted by: "Andrew Werby" andrewx~xxcomputersculpture.com Date: Sun Feb 7, 2010 1:04 pm ((PST)) "alan2525" alan2525x~xxyahoo.comwrote: > How best to lubricate the x axis on a Taig cnc milling machine? Plenty > of oil on the y and z but not too sure what to do with the x axis! It's harder to reach the screw and slides on the X axis, but it's not impossible. A gooseneck oilcan helps in getting up and under. I also like something called the "zoom-spout" oiler: http://www.zoomspoutoiler.com/ It consists of a plastic bottle with a long flexible tube on the end, and it's great for hard-to-reach spots. It's available from Ace Hardware stores, and probably others as well. The oil it comes with is a bit light for the Taig, but you can refill it with #2 way oil, red ATF, chainsaw bar oil, or whatever you fancy. Andrew Werby www.computersculpture.com ------- Re: How do you lubricate the x axis on a Taig cnc milling machine? Posted by: "Mike Nicewonger" twmasterx~xxtwmaster.com Date: Sun Feb 7, 2010 1:22 pm ((PST)) You can remove the two 1/4-20 set screws in the center T-slot to lube the lead screw. Just be sure to put some non-permanent thread locker back on them. Mike N ------- Sherline t-nuts work on Taig? [taigtools] Posted by: "James" sparkyorx~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Feb 7, 2010 11:10 am ((PST)) I was wondering if the t-nuts http://www.sherline.com/3056pg.htm would work on Taig's slots? I can't find their dimensions listed. Thanks ------- Re: Sherline t-nuts work on Taig? Posted by: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" felicex~xxcasco.net Date: Sun Feb 7, 2010 11:22 am ((PST)) There's no point as you can use the much cheaper #10-32 square nuts for the Taig lathe t-slots. For the mill table t-slots, the Sherline nuts will not work. See our homepage at www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Re: Sherline t-nuts work on Taig? Posted by: "vayeoman" momoindx~xxverizon.net Date: Mon Feb 8, 2010 9:37 am ((PST)) A2Z CNC makes t-nut designed precisely for the Taig table. I got mine from Jeff Birt at Soigeneris. He will explain why they might work better. Frank ------- Re: Sherline t-nuts work on Taig? Posted by: "Tony Jeffree" tonyx~xxjeffree.co.uk Date: Mon Feb 8, 2010 9:48 am ((PST)) Hi James - In reality the standard square nuts work very well - I have used a Taig lathe for a good many years now & never had a problem with them (apart from the fact that they are about as common as rocking horse manure here in the UK!) Regards, Tony ------- z axis nut question [taigtools] Posted by: "Rudy Munguia" rudymunguiax~xxrocketmail.com Date: Sat May 22, 2010 8:03 pm ((PDT)) I have a 2019cr mill converted to cnc with 269oz steppers on all three axis and a xylotex 3 axis controller run by a rosewill 28v ps all put together in 2005. In the last few months the z axis started "chattering" on rapids moving more than about -/+ 1/2" at any position on the axis. I slowed down the rapids to 6ipm and it quieted down. Then I just happened to look at it while setting up an engraving job and noticed the lead screw move through about 90-110 degrees of movement without the headstock lifting off the piece. Normally it runs unattended so I had not noticed this before. I got the chance to stop everything and dismantle the whole thing for spring cleaning. The is no more scoring or wear than usual, but the z axis nut is so loose now that I can give it a tap and it will slowly continue to spin all the way down the lead screw. This nut doesn't have the same screw for adjustment that the x and y axis have, so I was toying with the idea and drilling and tapping some holes so that I could tighten it up. Anyone done this before? OR has any one ordered a spare x axis nut and replaced the z axis nut? ------- Re: z axis nut question Posted by: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" felicex~xxcasco.net Date: Sat May 22, 2010 8:48 pm ((PDT)) Apparently Taig fits the adjustable nut to z these days. It's the same as the y-axis and I've retrofitted all my mills with it. See our homepage at www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Re: Grease on Z leadscrew [taigtools] Posted by: "Dean" deanofidx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Aug 15, 2010 3:48 pm ((PDT)) > I'm noticing a dark grey grease accumulating on the bottom couple > inches of my Z leadscrew. I lube with ATF or non-synthetic motor > oil. Is this coming from the spindle assembly? No, it's not from the spindle. It's mostly oil, and it has suspended some tiny metal particles from the brass leadscrew nut, and the leadscrew itself, along with other things particular to machining metals or organics. Dust comes from most things we machine. Even steel. Some of it gets in the oil on the screw and turns it black. > Will it need to be replaced? Probably not. You can crank the spindle head all the way down and check for wear along the screw where the most travel takes place. That's usually a pretty short area, as most of us work with similar sized cutters and work pieces the majority of the time. That means the wear area on the leadscrew will usually be along a 2-3" length near the middle of the screw. > Once again... is this a bad thing? Not necessarily, and even probably not. We who are not where you are have to guess about it, though. I would disassemble and clean the screw and brass nut that runs on the screw, then re-lubricate. Taig has a minor disagreement with themselves on which oil to use for lubing the screws. I have a couple of machines from them. On one machine it says to use 10w motor oil. One says to use ATF. I don't get the "black stuff", at least not as much, if I use light machine oil, or an oil called Vactra #2, which is made especially for machines by Mobil oil. You can get it in small containers on ebay. I wouldn't worry about this too much until you have it cleaned up and take a good look at the screw. If the threads on the leadscrew look the same on the ends as it does in the middle, it can be assumed to be good. If the middle threads looks a bit sharp on the peaks, it may be a bit worn. Get in the habit of oiling the leadscrews, especially the Z screw, every day. You can't get too much oil on it, and the excess will run off the end, carrying away those small particulates that turn the oil black. Hope this helps. Sorry if it's kind of wordy. Dean ------- Z-Axis Play [taigtools] Posted by: "Jack" tech.writerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Sat Oct 9, 2010 3:54 pm ((PDT)) I recently removed the motor from my CNC mill so I could properly adjust the Z-axis gib. What I found is that without the motor weighing it down, the Z main body can be moved up and down freely by hand about .004". After adjusting the gib and adjusting/verifying everything else related to the Z axis, I determined that this problem is being caused by the fit of the leadscrew nut in the main body. In other words, the round stub at the front of the nut is slightly smaller than the hole bored in the body. That allows the body to move up and down on the rails, even though the nut isn't moving on the leadscrew. Is there a way to fix this? ------- Re: Z-Axis Play Posted by: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" felicex~xxcasco.net Date: Sat Oct 9, 2010 4:05 pm ((PDT)) Wrap some aluminum foil around the post, should take up the .004" Some is .001" some is .002", so play around with what works. See our homepage at www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Re: Z-Axis Play Posted by: "Jack" tech.writerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Sun Oct 10, 2010 10:05 pm ((PDT)) Thanks Nick, I did that this afternoon and it helped some. It's impossible to line the entire hole with foil though (even very thin foil) and still be able to push in the stub. I was able to line about 1/4 of the hole with a small piece, and that helped. There's still about 2 to 2.5 thousandths of vertical play at the carriage. You know, I think the stub may not be machined correctly. When it's first positioned into the hole (without foil), it's really tight; in fact, it's pretty difficult to slide it in. After it's seated though, it loosens up and I can feel a slight wobble. I think the stub may be slightly cone-shaped, although I didn't measure it while it was out. I'm not sure what to do at this point. Guess I'll need to remove it again and take a measurement. Unfortunately, I don't have any bore gauges, so I can't check the carriage. On a better note, I produced some really fine lettering on a scrap aluminum panel with the mill this afternoon. Had just bought a new carbide bit (for a Dremel), and that did the trick. Machining .006" into the surface was just enough to let me fill the letters with gloss black enamel. It looks really great, as good as any commercial engraving on electronics I've ever seen. Once I get the anodizing system set up, I'll be all set! ------- NOTE TO FILE: There is a conversation about the pros and cons of using a boring head in the Taig mill. As the thread could be generally useful to other small machines, and contains alternatives to boring, it was placed in the General Metalworking section of this website in the file named "Boring". See the conversation there with subject "Taig boring head" starting Mar 3, 2012. ------- Taig Mill Blues [taigtools] Posted by: "Ali Ghazizadeh" alighazizadehx~xxaol.com Date: Sun May 13, 2012 4:06 pm ((PDT)) Hi to All, I am getting a bit fed up with constantly adjusting my Taig mill. I have managed to get it to within 0.002" over an 8" swing and I have called it quits, but the main headache is that there appears to be a slight rocking movement, about 0.003", in the head motor assembly that requires both the gib and the retaining screws to be so tight, to take it out that the Z axis movement is quite stiff. This is not a great problem for milling or flycutting but is too darn stiff for any sensitive drilling, particularly with very small drills, typically 1/16" or so. Does any one have any suggestions as to why this is or how to sort it out, or is this normal? The movement of the Xand Y axis is silky smooth in comparison. Regards, A.G ------- Re: Taig Mill Blues Posted by: "Paul J. Ste. Marie" taigx~xxste-marie.org Date: Sun May 13, 2012 8:44 pm ((PDT)) I'm not sure I understand. Is the movement between the motor and the z-axis carriage or is the z-axis carriage moving? Something is amiss if the carriage has 3 mils of play unless you over- tighten the gib. Are the clamping shoes set up right? When you adjust the z-axis gib, are you tightening both screws (incorrect) or loosening one and tightening the other (correct)? ------- Re: Taig Mill Blues Posted by: "alighazizadeh" alighazizadehx~xxaol.com Date: Sun May 13, 2012 11:25 pm ((PDT)) Hi. The play is in the Z axis carriage. If I hold the steel column with my right hand and push the carriage with my left hand I can definitely detect a movement or knocking. The motor also sounds different during the cut, I guess due to vibration. The clamping shoes screws appear to be tight and the gibs are adjusted correctly, I loosen the bottom one while tightening the top one. I may just have to take the mill apart and put it together again but I really don't know what to watch out for, so I'd be grateful for any advice. Regards, A.G ------- Re: Taig Mill Blues Posted by: "Don" Donx~xxCampbell-Gemstones.com Date: Sun May 13, 2012 9:45 pm ((PDT)) Ali, some years back, just after I got my Taig mill, I was having some problems with uneven cuts. To get to the bottom of the problem, I literally started from the bottom. I used the same procedure that I used on the big lathes, mills, etc when I was a machine repairman at a GM plant many years (decades) ago. Most of the time, the problems then were on well established machines, so you could jump to what the problem suggested might be bad. However, with a machine of unknown history, or a new machine, you had to start from the basic foundation and work forward after each step was cleared. That is the procedure I used on my used Taig. I took some photos along the way and made a "how to" on the steps I took. You can see it at: http:groupg/taigfiles/files/Taig-Column.pdf While I was fighting a specific problem, a slope on the Y axis which turned out to be some paint, I included the steps through tramming the head, which is actually the last step in the alignment. For your binding Z that still has some "rock" to it, that would suggest that the Z gibs are unevenly adjusted, IE the top is tight while the bottom is loose. Or the fore/aft Z gibs are too tight. If I had my hands on your machine, I would remove the motor and spindle. Remove the spindle mounting plate. Remove the lead screw. I would even pull the two side L clamps off and loosen up the gib and have a good look at things. Look for nicks or burs or dirt stuck to the way or slides. Clean everything and put just a very light coat of very light oil, IE 3 and 1 oil or sewing machine oil on things. Now set about adjusting the ways so things move freely by hand, but have no play. The adjustment will be a matter of feel. By the way, a block of wood to keep the Z from crashing down on to the table or Y ways is a good idea. Or better yet, remove the column and lay it back down on a table. Put the two L clamps back on and adjust each individually for a smooth slide, but no front to back movement as if you were looking at the mill from the Y crank. Now put the tapered gib in and start adjusting it. The above step will ensure there it is no tip forward or tip back movement. The tapered gib takes up the rock right, rock left movement. In the event the slide starts to lock up, but still can be chucked side to side but only on the top or bottom, not both, then the gib may be off specs and is not parallel to the center way. You had the thing apart and had a good look, but it wouldn't hurt to look again. It is very unlikely that the gib is off taper, but it is a remotely possible problem. More likely is a nick or burr or foreign object behind the gib causing it to not be parallel. Once you have the slide working smoothly with no slop, then put the column back on the base, or if it is already on the base, now install the lead screw and adjust for smooth movement. I set the lead screw bearing with the slide all the way to the top. There is some slop in the bearings, there has to be, so when the screw is easy to turn with the slide as close to the crank as possible, then it will be smooth for the full travel. This is true for all three axis. A note here. The Z nut does not have any back- lash adjustment. It relies on the weight of the slide, spindle, and motor to take all of the back lash out of the Z travel. It works. Now that you have that part done, you can adjust the column so the Z moves perpendicular to the table. This is column tilt adjusted by loosening the big screw and tightening it. Nick will warn you not to over tighten it. Listen to him. Now install and adjust the spindle mount so it is parallel to the Z ways. This is simply aligning it to a square on the table. Mount the spindle and now you can tram it. Your adjustment will be on the spindle mounting plate, nowhere else. If you try to adjust the tram by tilting the column, you screw up your Z travel, it will not be perpendicular to the table any longer. Now it's time to lube with some way oil. A thicker oil before in the process will hide problems and make movement harder so it's difficult to tell when things are tight enough. Hope this helps. Just remember that once you get it right, it will stay that way until a significant occurrence happens. IE a crash, or someone starts twiddling with the basics. If you change anything later along this series, everything after that change is effected. IE, say you tilt the column for a special operation. If you don't get it back to the exact spot where everything was set to begin with, your tram will be off. The easy, but very wrong adjustment would be to shift the spindle mounting plate. This will put the sweep on the left and right dead on, but guess what happens to the Z in the process. You now have stair step cuts on the right and left vertical faces. Back to the bottom and build to the top again. Hope this helps. Don ------- Re: Taig Mill Blues Posted by: "alighazizadeh" alighazizadehx~xxaol.com Date: Sun May 13, 2012 11:35 pm ((PDT)) Hi Don: Thank you for your comprehensive instructions. Will try and do as you suggest and hope I could sort it out as this is really getting me down at the moment. Best regards, Ali ------- Re: Taig Mill Blues Posted by: "Don" Donx~xxCampbell-Gemstones.com Date: Mon May 14, 2012 9:27 am ((PDT)) Steve Wan wrote: > Hi Don > From What I read your notes, you have great insights in servicing big > and small machines...one question, speaking of gibs. for x and y axis > parallel or taper gibs are ok. But z axis is it better with taper gib > than parallel one? I try making the mill head with parallel brass gib > it seems there's no bite on to the column bed and during deep cuts, > the mill head was pushed upwards! Not so with taper gib... > Steve_Singapore Steve: Either gib method works well. Each has its own quirks though. With a proper designed taper gib, you can get a much finer adjustment and providing the taper is matched, gib to slide, any adjustment is even for the length of the gib. With a straight gib using setscrews for adjustment, it is very easy to get one end tight and one loose, which will allow shifting under load and difficulty in moving. In either case, the ways determine how well things move. If there is any wear area, and you adjust the gibs for a good fit there, as soon as you move away, they get tight. If you adjust on the area that isn't worn, when you get to the worn area, things loosen up. Any machine with some use will have this issue. Lathes are usually worn near the head stock as that is where most of the work takes place. Mills also develop a wear pattern. So at best your adjustments will be a compromise to accommodate the wear. Don ------- Re: Taig Mill Blues Posted by: "Steve Wan" stewanx~xxgmail.com Date: Mon May 14, 2012 6:45 pm ((PDT)) Hi Don: Thanks! I found a website 'Fixing Darren's lathe', describe making taper gibs for the lathe carriage...good for any learners out there :) http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=627.0 Steve_S'pore ------- Taig videos [taigtools] Posted by: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" felicex~xxcasco.net Date: Sat May 19, 2012 7:04 pm ((PDT)) Taig has been adding more videos lately, they just did a good one on adjusting the z-axis slide. http://www.youtube.com/user/jjjherzog#g/u Learn more about us at http://www.nickandfelice.com ------- Tight Mill lead screw nut [taigtools] Posted by: "Don" Donx~xxCampbell-Gemstones.com Date: Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:02 am ((PDT)) In cleaning up some issues with my mill, I decided to replace the old lead screw nut, the non adjustable one, with an adjustable one. When I did the CNC conversion several years back, Cliff at Taig said they didn't use the adjustable nut on the Z as the backlash was taken up by the weight of the head and motor. Well I saw that they are now using the adjustable nut so I got one with my last order. As the lead-screw and the nut (all three Axes) were required separately, not as sets, they were not lapped in. My Y nut gets very tight with about 3/4" of screw still sticking out of the nut. My new Z nut is really going to be a problem getting on the screw. I have jacked the nut open with the center screw quite a bit and it is still jamming at about 1/3 the way onto the screw. Question 1. Any tricks for getting the nut open enough to get the screw started without jacking it open to the point it may bend the nut? Question 2. Has anyone lapped in their lead-screws at home? What setup did you use? Thanks Don ------- Re: Tight Mill lead screw nut Posted by: "Lester Caine" lesterx~xxlsces.co.uk Date: Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:08 pm ((PDT)) I've not had any problem replacing nuts, so I wonder if your older leadscrew is perhaps a little bigger than the modern ones? Opening up the nut normally leaves it quite loose on the thread ... Lester Caine - G8HFL Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ------- Re: Tight Mill lead screw nut Posted by: "Don" Donx~xxCampbell-Gemstones.com Date: Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:23 pm ((PDT)) I went ahead and jacked it open enough to get it on the lead screw. I would bind on half turns until there were four or five threads through the nut, then things went loose. This mimics my Y nut also. The X is smooth full length. I'm considering opening up my 1/2-20 die and chasing the first 1 1/2" of the lead screws, then lapping the them full length. I think trying to lap the end where it is tight may wear out the nut before I have a good fit full length of the screw. I haven't checked the fit with the Z slide in place yet, it may be that there is enough length that I can get full travel and stay in the sweet area on the screw. The Y showed its ugly head when I opted to extend the travel by 3/4" with spacers. Don ------- Re: Tight Mill lead screw nut Posted by: "Lester Caine" lesterx~xxlsces.co.uk Date: Fri Jul 27, 2012 3:41 pm ((PDT)) Sounds like your leadscrews may be at the point that I would be replacing them. My heavy users get about 2 years before the profile is too bad to work with ;) Lester Caine ------- Re: Tight Mill lead screw nut Posted by: "Don" Donx~xxCampbell-Gemstones.com Date: Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:06 pm ((PDT)) Lester, these screws have probably less the 20 hours on them. I decided as long as I took the step of jacking open the nut to get it on, I might as well go the rest of the way. With a brand new /12-20 LH die, I tightened the adjustment screw on the die by 1/4 turn. Then I had a go at screwing the die on the lead screw. Same half turn rough spots. I pushed it on for the length of the bronze screw. There was a fine steel wool left in the die. I then took an old non adjustable nut, Mixed up some 600 silicon carbide in some 3 in 1 oil and painted the end of the screw with the lapping compound and put the nut on by hand. I ran it back and forth about 20 times, using a cordless screw drive with a nut driver to engage the 1/2" nut. I at first set the screwdriver torque to the lowest setting, so I went to half range and it was soon traversing back and forth with little complaint. I then used the vise grips to tighten the nut and went through another 20 cycles, gave the vice grips another 1/32 turn, maybe less and keep repeating this for a while. I then cleaned the compound off the lead screw and tried the new nut. It was still tight on the screw end, but there was some improvement. Back to the vise grip and old nut and another round. Now the new nut is adjusted to where it just complains a little on the end of the screw but is still nice and tight but free turning for the rest of the length of the screw. I think this is going to work out just fine. While I'm at it, I'm going to pull the Y screw and re-dress it the same way. From the two hard spots on both the die and the nut at the end of the screw, I'm guessing there was a ding in the threads near the end of the screw. I looked before, but maybe grasping it in a vise with some soft jaws that were not quite soft enough. Who knows. Glad I didn't discard those old nuts when I converted to CNC. Don ------- Re: Tight Mill lead screw nut Posted by: "Tpg" cghentx~xxtpg.com.au Date: Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:48 am ((PDT)) I replaced my X and Y screws and nuts with new ones a couple of years ago because I could not adjust the nuts to be right at the centre without them tightening too much towards the end. To my surprise the new screws were both very tight at the beginning of the thread, the X thread was tighter at the end compared to the middle than the worn one I took off and it was very hard to get the screw started in the nut. If I had not modified the screws (for Oldham couplers) before fitting I would have sent them back. I think rather than having a belly in the screw like the worn ones, both ends were raised in size but they were flat through the middle. That seems a poor description, perhaps this shape might help? \-------/. Once the nut was adjusted it was fine throughout the range as long as I don't go within about 37mm (1.5 inch) of the free end. With the old worn ones if I adjusted in the middle they would tighten gradually towards the end. I always meant to take this up with Nick but a working mill is a working mill and if I ever manage to wear out another set of screws (I lubricate a lot more now and spread the load) I will see how the next set are. Chris www.concertina.com.au ------- Re: Tight Mill lead screw nut Posted by: "Lester Caine" lesterx~xxlsces.co.uk Date: Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:59 am ((PDT)) Seems a little strange. I've been through a few sets and don't recognise the problem. I always run 'X' out right to the nut when bedding things in, and although there is a slight variation, on the whole they have all be consistent. Lester Caine ------- Re: Tight Mill lead screw nut Posted by: "Steve Wan" stewanx~xxgmail.com Date: Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:37 am ((PDT)) Hi Don From my experience, the leadscrew adjustment should be done without gravity pulling it. Rest the headstock flat on the bench. Ensure both ends of the leadscrew are parallel before you tighten the adjusting grub screws. Then move the nut to both extreme ends making sure no jams. Adjust until both ends are easy to move only then you fix back the column. If you adjust the adjusting nut with headstock pulling down, chances are your saddle nut will be off alignment and will wear eventually. I found this method after a long struggle with this problem which many mill users did not mention. You need not lap the leadscrew as the Taig maker has done it; see their youtube, they have a lapping machine. Steve W. ------- Re: Tight Mill lead screw nut Posted by: "Don" Donx~xxCampbell-Gemstones.com Date: Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:01 am ((PDT)) The mast is off the mill, I'm replacing the Z ways. My original ones picked up a nasty twist. No sign of damage just a twist. My guess is that it originally had a lot of stress and it just shook it out over time. I was having a fit with the measurements I was getting trying to tram the mill, so I pulled the mast apart and started checking things on the surface plate. I was scanning the top of the wide way and opposite corners were high. To the point that if I pushed one down, the other would rise by 0.005". I first thought of a re-grind for it, but Nick talked me into a replacement as it would most likely be cheaper than a re-grind. As long as I had things apart, might as well replace the nut. I expect that Taig only laps sets for making the mills. The new nut was not lapped. I know this as I had to remove the center set screw and finish tapping the hole so the screw actually touched the other side. I examined the nut with a loupe and there was no indication that it had ever seen lapping compound. By the way, lapping the nut and screw isn't that difficult of a job except for the cleanup of the nut. I grasp the bearing block in my vise. I used a power screwdriver with a 1/2" socket to turn the screw and a crescent wrench on the nut to get some leverage. Just use some aluminum over the vise jaws so they don't damage the bearing block. You end up with a poor man's lapping machine. Don ------- Re: Tight Mill lead screw nut Posted by: "Don" Donx~xxCampbell-Gemstones.com Date: Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:00 pm ((PDT)) Chris, your experience matches mine. I could explain the tightness first putting the nut on as the spring in the nut would set up a cone to screw the screw into until it was fully seated. However the 1.5" tight end sounds like a manufacturing quirk doesn't it? Maybe the lapping machine doesn't run the screw all the way to the end. Lester, did you get Sets, or individual pieces? A set may have gone through the lapping machine, but I'll bet the standalone screws without nuts haven't or they use a different process to finish the threads. Don ------- Re: Tight Mill lead screw nut Posted by: "Lester Caine" lesterx~xxlsces.co.uk Date: Sat Jul 28, 2012 2:50 pm ((PDT)) A set may have gone through the lapping machine, but I'll bet the standalone screws without nuts haven't or they use a different process to finish the threads. Half a dozen leadscrews and nuts, but nothing 'matched' ;) Lester Caine ------- Re: Tight Mill lead screw nut Posted by: "Don" Donx~xxCampbell-Gemstones.com Date: Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:29 pm ((PDT)) Must be that little black cloud that parks over my head now and then. Don ------- Re: Tight Mill lead screw nut Posted by: "Don" Donx~xxCampbell-Gemstones.com Date: Wed Aug 1, 2012 11:21 am ((PDT)) I discovered that my Z lead screw has a slight bend about 4 1/2"' from the dead end. So as long as I am replacing it I decided to do some further testing. When I first ran the die over the first 1 1/2" of the threads, it was jacked open a 1/4 turn on the adjustment and I was holding it in hand vs a die holder. I closed the adjustment back up and put the die in a proper holder and ran it back on the screw. Just at the point the nut would go loose, the die also went loose. Three for four passes over the tight spot resulted in a bunch of steel wool this time. I set up my homemade lapping setup and had a go at the re-cut part and when things smoothed down, I cleaned up and put the screw back into the adjustable nut and tested it. It still gets tighter at the end when the center is adjusted well, but not to the point it would stall the stepper. Both screws that were binding on the end are LH threads, and 2003 vintage. The RH X was smooth full length. I am looking forward to getting the new 2012 vintage screw and see how it goes. Don ------- Re: Tight Mill lead screw nut Posted by: "Don" Donx~xxCampbell-Gemstones.com Date: Mon Aug 6, 2012 9:43 pm ((PDT)) The new lead screw came today. Straight as an arrow, I couldn't find any rock on the surface plate. I put it in the Z nut and snugged the nut down to a close fit and there was no change from half way into the nut to hard stop at the bearing block. The fat end on the screws must have been a problem of the past, it looks fine today. I examined the threads with a loupe and they are as good as one could expect. I'm happy. I have to fit the new nut to the Z slide though. It needs to be cut down a few thousands where it seats to the slide. The bearing block will only fit onto the ways if you spring the screw a bit. This binds the nut/screw fit. I first thought it was just shavings from pressing the new nut into the slide which I cut out with a graver. With the old screw, I couldn't tell very well where the problem was with the bend in the screw. Now with a straight screw, it looks as if I need to shave about 15 thou, maybe a little more off the nut on the nut to slide face to eliminate this bind. Or I could face off 20 thou on the bottom of the slide bearing. Can't do that without a mill though, so It time to fix the nut. Don ------- Re: Tight Mill lead screw nut Posted by: "Steve Wan" stewanx~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Aug 6, 2012 10:08 pm ((PDT)) Hi Don My guess is that the factory nut is threaded smaller due to the wear of the tap. One way is to lap the nut using your leadscrew, apply the brass polish paste 'Autosol' and screw by hand in/out several times. The brass will wear slightly and this will over come the tightness. Remember to remove the paste thoroughly by turpentine before assembly. Steve W. ------- Re: Setting up the Taig CNC [taigtools] Posted by: "Rupert" rwenig2x~xxxplornet.com Date: Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:44 am ((PDT)) On 7/28/2012 1:31 AM, Andreas Grau wrote: > In addition to setting up Mach3, there's also the challenge to square > and tram the mill. Any pointers for instructions/tips/tricks for this? > Thanks, Andreas Hello Andreas, I use a new small auto brake disk set on a clean table for a reference surface when I tram my manual mill. Then I clamp a dial gauge to the spindle, rotate the spindle by hand to take readings around the disk surface. I lock down the Z axis when the gauge reads the same all the way around. Then I take a trial cut with a face mill watching how it cuts in both directions. A tiny bit of tweaking may be necessary at that point. Hope that helps. There are tramming rings available but I've never used one. Rupert Wenig Camrose, Alberta, Canada. http://users.xplornet.com/~rwenig/Home/ ------- Re: Setting up the Taig CNC Posted by: "Paul J. Ste. Marie" taigx~xxste-marie.org Date: Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:04 pm ((PDT)) Andreas: The Starrett Last Word indicator with the round shank http://amzn.com/B0002PCU8S is perfect for this. Fit it in a 3/16" collet and you can sweep across the table easily. If you get the kit with the additional attachments http://amzn.com/B0006J4MYA you can use a lathe tool post to attach it to the mill head for squaring your work on the table. Alternatively, you can make a mount for the round shank by drilling a piece of aluminum and adding a thumb screw and some mounting bolts. See the "Taig Head Lamp" album http://groups.yahoo.com/group/taigtools/photos/album/256267062/pic/list for some pictures of a mounting attachment. The tramming kit from Little Machine Shop is a useful accessory, but not a replacement. ------- Tramming the taig [taigtools] Posted by: "Peter Homann" groupsx~xxhomanndesigns.com Date: Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:31 pm ((PDT)) Hi, I've have a problem with the alignment with the Iaig mill since I've had the mill and need to fix it. When tramming in the Y axis, the DTI shows that there is a 6 thou difference between the front and rear of the table indicating that the spindle/column is leaning back. I have cleaned the column mounting plate so there is no foreign material there. One solution is to shiim the bottom of the mounting surface to make the column at 90 degrees to the table. The other possibility is that the Z-axis way that the saddle slides along is not parallel to the column. Has anyone taken this off? Has anyone experienced this issue and solved it? Cheers, Peter eStore: http://www.homanndesigns.com/store ------- Re: Tramming the taig Posted by: "Ken Cline" clinex~xxfrii.com Date: Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:52 pm ((PDT)) Are you sure it isn't just a matter of shimming the headstock mounting plate (Taig part #200-48)? Mine was off by a similar amount and shimming brought the error down to tenths. The other possibilities you mention seem much less likely. ------- Re: Tramming the taig Posted by: "alighazizadeh" alighazizadehx~xxaol.com Date: Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:11 am ((PDT)) Hi Peter, It appears that many people have had this problem as I did and still do, however i have manged to bring the back to front error down to 0.0015" over 4" swing. I originally had about 0.004" error and shimmed the mounting dovetail but this caused other complications. In the end I had to sort of realign the head stock starting from scratch by removing the motor and sorting out the head stock retaining plates and bolts. You may also have to do this while the mill is dismantled and lying flat on its back. I have posted a link for some related videos from Taig themselves below, hope these help. Please let me know if you manage to sort this problem out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFF3w5wo6Ig&feature=channel&list=UL Regards, A.G. ------- Re: Tramming the taig Posted by: "Peter Homann" groupsx~xxhomanndesigns.com Date: Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:11 am ((PDT)) Hi, Running the DTI along the Z-saddle shows 2 to 2.5 thou from top to bottom of the saddle. What should I use for a shim on the column mounting surface to move the column forward? Cheers, Peter ------- Re: Tramming the taig Posted by: "Ken Cline" clinex~xxfrii.com Date: Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:39 am ((PDT)) It sounds like you checked the "Z saddle" (do you mean the Z-Axis Main Body, part #200-44?) rather than the column. Do check the column before considering adjustment. To verify column alignment, I attach my DTI to the headstock and run it up and down while indicating off a 123 block clamped to the table. Again, if the problem is in the Z-Axis Main Body, you want to shim the Headstock Mounting Plate. The column mounting flanges and ways are precision ground and should be very accurate. If you verify that these are not square, a call to the factory is probably in order. ------- Re: Tramming the taig Posted by: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" felicex~xxcasco.net Date: Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:16 am ((PDT)) What Ken says! Checking the surface of the z-saddle is not indicative of the actual column, as the z-slide could be cocked slightly which would give a bad reading. Mounting the DTI on the z-saddle and indicating off of an angle plate or 123 block on the table (assuming the table gibs both in x and y are adjusted properly) will give a better indication of any error. ------- Re: Tramming the taig Posted by: "Paul J. Ste. Marie" taigx~xxste-marie.org Date: Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:40 pm ((PDT)) There's a photo essay posted in the group photo albums that shows someone tracking a similar problem down to some stray paint on the base that got onto the ground surface where the y-ways attach. I appear to have a similar problem -- I thought I had chased it down once but subsequently it cropped up again. I haven't gone back to run it down. ------- Re: Tramming the taig Posted by: "Paul J. Ste. Marie" taigx~xxste-marie.org Date: Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:43 pm ((PDT)) On 8/17/2012, Ken Cline wrote: > shimming the headstock mounting plate First you need to verify that the z ways are perpendicular to the table. Otherwise you can get in a funny position where the spindle tilt cancels the tilt in the ways, but moving in z causes the cutter to shift in y. ------- Re: Tramming the taig Posted by: "Martin Dobbins" trainnutzx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Aug 18, 2012 3:55 pm ((PDT)) There is also something which might be useful by Don Rogers (otherwise known as campgems). Look for "Taig-Column.PDF" in the files area for a very nicely put together article with photos. Martin ------- Re: Tramming the taig Posted by: "Don" Donx~xxCampbell-Gemstones.com campgems Date: Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:01 pm ((PDT)) I just finished my mill alignment yesterday. By the way, I'm the guy who traced one problem a few years back to the paint. The file is in the TaigFiles group. I just Copied it to this groups files. Taig Column near the bottom. A FIY and an important one, DO NOT use the Anti-Seize compound on the face. You will not be able to firmly lock the column in place. Clean the face of the column and the base with alcohol and NO oil, or it will slip. Your 0.006" front to back can be caused by any number of things. You need to find out which one of them it is. The best way is to completely dismantle the mill, so you are starting with just the blue steel base. The above file shows the steps I went through to get the first issue resolved. I say first as there were a number of things off, the last corrected yesterday. The key to checking things out is the point you attach the indicator, and what you are scanning. An example. I attached the indicator to the mill table and ran the Z up and down and scanned the face of the Z. It was off by 0.003" top to bottom. However, when I clamped a machinist square to the table and the dial to the Z, full length of the square was off by less than 0.0005". From those two pieces of information, you can conclude two things. First the Z ways are perpendicular to the table face. This is good. The second is that the face of the Z slide is not parallel with the ways, not good. It turns out that this is an aggravation point, but not a major problem. I'll explain why later. The basics are that you check for any nicks, dings, paint, swarf, etc between any two parts. The small stone shown in the above article is a great tool for checking for dings and nicks. The orange India stone if very fine and the surface if very flat. When you sweep it along a flat, anything that prevents the two pieces from fully seating will snag the stone. The stone is so fine that it would take a couple weeks of 8 hour days to remove any significant metal, but it is aggressive on small nicks. For larger one, a fine file will knock them down, then finish with the India stone. Then clean things and check again. Once you have all the ways and slides inspected and cleand a lightly oiled with a thin oil, assemble the X and Y slides and adjust the gibs for no play and smooth movement. Same for the Z. First check is to mount the dial on the Z and scan the length of the table. Expect less than 0.001" difference here. All you are checking is that the table surface is parallel to the ways. Do the came and scan front to back on the table moving the Y. In my above article, it shows an aluminum plate I use. I picked up a couple at a salvage metal place in San Jose. They were precision ground on the faces and are dead flat. It makes for a good extension of the table top and bridge over the grooves. Again, you are checking that the table is parallel with the Y ways. Now, mount the Z column and square it to the table using your machinist square. Square the center way, not the slide. snug down the column nut. Set up your square near the center of the table and put the indicator on the Z slide. With the blade and handle parallel with the table length, run the Z up and down to check for zero runout. Tap the top of the column with a dead blow until you get zero runout. Lock down the column. One question comes up at this point. Is my square square? An easy check is to turn the square 180 degrees on the table and scan it again. If the square is not really square, you will get a difference of twice the amount it is off square. I.E. first scan shows 0.000 both top and bottom, but when you turn the square 180, you get 0.002 and 0.000. The square is off by 0.001". Simply align so the Z reflects this, I.E. 0.001 on one end and 0.000 on the other, rotate the square and you will get the same readings if the column is square. Now mount the square cross ways to the table and check again. Any difference here is a problem. It will affect the tram and worse yet will give you un-square sides on your cut. I.E. a stair step cut. This is a condition that you can't shim to correct. You would shim the Y saddle to base, but it is aluminum, and there are 8 screws holding it down. You would have to come up with a progression of shims under each screw, or you will develop a belly on the Z ways, end up unable to get the ways adjusted for smooth travel and no slop. This is very unlikely, not going to happen, unless something damaged your column and/or base. OK, we have a table that moves parallel to the ways, both X and Z. We have a Z that moves perpendicular to the table face, both front to back and side to side. Two things left to do. Mount the spindle and align it. Earlier I pointed out I had a wedge on the face of the Z to the ways. Some shim stock under the right screws that hold the dovetail to the slide are needed. Only use four screws, on the corners. I first mounted the dovetail and squared it up with my square and shimmed it to parallel. The tram was still way off. Do the shims and side to side adjustment with the spindle on the dovetail. Not all spindles register to the dovetail the same way, so you need to adjust the dovetail for your spindle. Once you have this last adjustment down, you have a mill that is tram. The key point is that while you can shim and twist the spindle for a good swing on the table, if the rest of the adjustments are off, you will still get stair step cuts because the movement is not square, only the tool face is. On the spindle to dovetail, I have four spindles, three of the old split housing, but with the newer pre-load spindle shaft, and an ER spindle. The oldest spindle housing was the most accurate on tram with the dovetail aligned to the square. The ER was the worst. If I change spindles for different operations, I'll have to re-tram after each change, but because I know the moves are all square, it is a minor job. Don ------- Re: Tramming the taig Posted by: "alighazizadeh" alighazizadehx~xxaol.com Date: Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:15 pm ((PDT)) Hi Don, I too have had a lot of problems with the tram of this little Taig mill. As I posted earlier I have managed to get it down to about 0.0015" over a 4" swing. I think at this stage for me this good enough and have called it a day. I rather use the time making things than tweaking them as this is a hobby to me, but I guess for people who make their living from these machines the situation is very different. Thank you for your informative post. Regards, A.G. ------- Re: Tramming the taig Posted by: "Don" Donx~xxCampbell-Gemstones.com Date: Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:18 pm ((PDT)) A.G. If you are cutting wax for jewelery, using very small mills, usually with a ball nose, the tram isn't a huge problem. Back lash is though, but not the tram unless it is off by huge amounts. Flat surfaces, I.E. a fly cut is where the tram rears its ugly head. My initial plan for the mill was for making wax patterns for jewelry. Now, its purpose is to make engine parts, and airplane parts for exact scale model airplanes. And some tools to do that. The tool making is the most demanding for setup, because a tool that is off by 0.0005" per foot may be a problem, but for a control horn on a model plane, it is absolute perfection. What I'm saying, is know what is good enough for the work you are doing and don't go nuts trying to make it perfect. The Taig will never be absolute perfection, but is very good for for the work it was designed to do. Now, with a red face, I have trouble keeping this in mind at times so I get distracted. Don ------- Re: Tramming the taig Posted by: "Don" Donx~xxCampbell-Gemstones.com Date: Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:23 pm ((PDT)) Peter, I scanned the side of the Z saddle and the face. Both were off by a few thousands from the actual travel of the slide. The sides being off are of no consequence, but the face does require you to shim the dovetail plate to get the axis of the spindle in alignment with the movement. Something else I discovered was that if I scanned the face of the Z saddle by moving the X axis, it was off 0.008" in just the width of the saddle. Loosening the screws on the Y saddle to base, allowed me to tap the X/Y assembly into parallel with the face of the Z. For normal operation, IE vertical axis on the spindle, this isn't an issue, but if I were to put an angle plate under the spindle, IE turn it into a horizontal mill, it would have been a huge error on the alignment. The thing about the face of the Z being off does present a problem of interchangeability of spindles. The dove tail plates are not really accurate, and although you have the plate shimmed and cocked for the spindle for one head, mounting a second head presents the need to re-shim and cock the dovetail to get the tram right for the new spindle. My plan had been to have the ER spindle for most work, but a lathe spindle with custom tool holders for the larger shank tools like woodruff key cutters, Dove tail cutters, fly cutters, boring heads, etc which all come with 1/2" shanks. I'm still pondering a solution for this. Don ------- Re: Tramming the taig Posted by: "Paul J. Ste. Marie" taigx~xxste-marie.org Date: Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:02 pm ((PDT)) A2Z sells tool holders that screw onto the ER16 thread, and I believe they go up to 1/2". That said, good luck getting a 1/2" shank dovetail cutter to behave on the Taig. The actual cutter is going to be what, 1" dia? It might be OK in Al, but certainly not steel. I was really pushing it to the edge and beyond with a 3/4" dia/ 3/8" shank dovetail cutter. ------- Re: Tramming the taig Posted by: "David Underwood" dave.underwoodx~xxsympatico.ca Date: Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:02 pm ((PDT)) Don, regarding 1/2"-shank cutters, here's what I did: http://toolingaround.ca/mth1.html and the second version: http://toolingaround.ca/mth2.html Odd, how some of the smallest cutters have a too-large shaft, isn't it? David Underwood ------- Re: Tramming the taig Posted by: "alighazizadeh" alighazizadehx~xxaol.com Date: Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:40 pm ((PDT)) Hi David, I made a 1/2" tool holder with a Taig blank arbor for my little Sherline mill, it worked ok but not first class as I had about 0.001" tir. I tried to do the same for my Taig Er16 mill with no success. I just couldn't get the little Sherline lathe to cut an internal M22 1.5 thread. I shall try again soon. But I really do like your lathe. Is it a sakai? Regards, A.G. ------- Re: Tramming the taig Posted by: "David Underwood" dave.underwoodx~xxsympatico.ca Date: Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:39 pm ((PDT)) Actually, it's a Toyo ML210. I like it, too. :-) Dave ------- Re: Tramming the taig Posted by: "alighazizadeh" alighazizadehx~xxaol.com Date: Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:47 pm ((PDT)) Hi Paul, I think the A2Z tool holders are a little too long for the Taig. The extra length is necessary to accommodate the length of the 1/2" tools but this leaves a lot of stress on the spindle due to the extra length. It may just be the case that we have to accept that the little Taig mill really does have its limit of tooling at about 8 mm or 5/16" in the old money. Regards, A.G. ------- Re: Tramming the taig Posted by: "Don" Donx~xxCampbell-Gemstones.com Date: Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:32 pm ((PDT)) Paul, thanks for the tip on the A to Z end mill holders. The length is only slightly longer than the old Taig blank arbors. 2.1" vs 2.0 for the Taig. The only issue I see, and this is not based on seeing the holders, is that the ER-16 spindle doesn't have a registration ring like the 3/4"-16 spindle does, so you have to rely on the threads only to keep things aligned. I'm not sure how I would like that. I would like to see one to see how it fit the head stock. Not $35 worth of curiosity though. The diameter of the shank doesn't enter into the problem but rather the diameter of the cutter. None of the woodruff key cutters have shanks smaller than 1/2", but the OD of the cutter goes down to 1/4". You are right though on the limits of the Taig. With any machine, there is some "spring" to it. When I was working Machine Repair at a GM plant, the tool room had a radial arm drill press. This thing was huge. You could put a die that stamped out the roof of a 1960 Buick station wagon on the base and reach any point on the die at any angle. If you put a dial indicator on the chuck and at maximum reach, it didn't take much more than hand pressure to deflect it a couple thou. Then it stiffened up considerably. The column was close to 2 ft in diameter. Huge arm, but the spring was still there. It's no surprise the Taig has some spring. We just have to live with it. Until we get our Bridgeport anyway {:>) Don ------- Re: Tramming the taig Posted by: "Paul J. Ste. Marie" taigx~xxste-marie.org Date: Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:46 pm ((PDT)) On 8/20/2012, alighazizadeh wrote: > I think the A2Z tool holders are a little too long for the Taig. Beats me. I haven't tried the A2Z holders, but their stuff is generally well-made. > ... It may just be the case that we have to accept that the > little Taig mill really does have its limit of tooling at about 8 mm > or 5/16" in the old money. 3/8" shank tooling is extremely common, much more so than 5/16", and suits the Taig perfectly well. It's considerably more rigid than the 3/16" shank cutters Taig provides. ------- Re: Tramming the taig Posted by: "phoglite" phoglitex~xxgmail.com Date: Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:44 am ((PDT)) Steve Wan wrote: > Speaking of so much tramming a machine, getting all 3 axis > perpendicular to each other, is there a step by step approach? A basic > formula to follow? Steve / All - I've written a first draft article on how to tram the mill. I intend to add some photos in the near future. Nick Carter's site has a nice run through with photos. Check mine out here: https://desktoplathes.com/tramming if you like and let me know what you think. I'm interested in any feedback you might have. Thanks! Keith ------- Re: Tramming the taig Posted by: "Paul J. Ste. Marie" taigx~xxste-marie.org Date: Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:52 pm ((PDT)) > I'm interested in any feedback you might have. In step 1, you should run the table up against the column and place the blade of the square against the z-way (the narrow plate with machined edges). When torquing the nut, choke up on the wrench so your hand is right next to the nut. It's surprisingly easy to bend the front plate on the other end of that screw. I managed to flake the paint on mine and leave a slight distortion, although it doesn't appear to have affected anything other than the front plate. Step 2 is problematic. If the z-way isn't perpendicular to the y-axis, (checked with an angle plate or 1-2-3 block, as in step 1), then this will introduce a matching error in the other direction. Not necessarily a big deal, but it will cause the cutter to move slightly in y when you move it up and down in z. Also, it's the spindle axis that matters, not the dovetail plate. Putting a piece of 3/8" drill rod in the spindle and scanning up and down that would probably be preferable. Step 3, you should have a mounting stem for the DTI that will fit in the collet. The Starrett "Last Word" dti's have a 3/16" stem with a flex joint that works perfectly. This is the writeup I started to compose yesterday. Feel free to use/adapt/correct as need be: On 8/21/2012 1:42 AM, Steve Wan wrote (in a different order): > I'm very keen to learn, am building a mill If you're building a mill, it's going to depend on the design. What's adjustable, what's not, what can be measured independently, and what measurements depend on multiple variables. > getting all 3 axis perpendicular to each other, and the table parallel to x&y, and the spindle parallel to z. Potentially six angles in all, more if there's multiple ways to travel in a particular direction.. > is there a step by step approach? A basic formula to follow? The basic formula is to find a measurement affected by only a single adjustment. Get that right, then move on to measurements affected by the adjustment you just made and one other adjustment. Repeat until done. Taking the Taig as an example, you can't adjust the x/y angle (is there any mill that you can?). Take that as a given and move on. Fortunately nothing* else depends on it. Then fix the indicator on the spindle, and measure the table, moving it in x and y. There should be no error when moving in x or y. If there is, about all you can do is disassemble the ways and look for something wedged in there that might affect the table. Next, get z perpendicular to x. Scan up and down an angle plate pointed sideways. Adjust column as required. This will be affected by any misalignment between the table and the x-axis, but there ought not be any. Repeat for y. If it's off, then the issue could be the y-ways relative to the hub, the z-ways relative to the hub, or crud in the hub. You can correct by shimming between the y-ways and the blue base, but you'll need to be very careful in getting a progression of shims to keep everything straight and to torque the fasteners evenly, in a pattern similar to changing a tire. Uneven torque can distort the ways and introduce some strange errors. Once that's good, you can put an indicator in the spindle and scan the table. Since z is now know to be perpendicular to the table, any error is due to spindle misalignment and you will need to shim the spindle mount. I'm sure someone will chime in with finer points I've overlooked. Taig's video showing how they use indicators to individually check parts of the mill as it's built should give you some more ideas. Oh, and to go all out like Don did, put the base on a large surface plate and verify that the hub is perpendicular to the ground seating area, and then attach a DTI to the z-saddle and scan the surface of the hub on the column and make certain the z-ways are parallel to the hub surface. *Well, thinking about it, when doing the z alignment you should tram the angle plate to be aligned perpendicular to the axis you're measuring, and that in turn depends on x/y being perpendicular. I don't think it's much of an issue, but it means there could be some cross-dependency between the two measurements. ------- Re: Tramming the taig - A2Z ER16 end mill holder [taigtools] Posted by: "Don" Donx~xxCampbell-Gemstones.com Date: Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:34 pm ((PDT)) Well, the curiosity got the best of me and I ordered two of the A2Z 1/2" long ER16 to 1/2" end mill adapters. They arrived today and as soon as I hear back from them, they are going back. At first glance, the wall thickness looked thin, not much meat for a set screw. Their solution was to use a #8 thread, no screw included. I figured I could open it up to a 1/4-28 thread and be OK. I checked the fit to a couple 1/2" shank mills and tools at that fit was very good. I mounted it on the spindle and took a reading on the ID. The run-out was 0.0035", I mounted the second one and it showed 0.0045". Just to be sure, I checked the ID of the spindle and couldn't detect any run out. I then checked the top of the threads, the very thin ring between the end of thread and the hex part of the spindle and it showed just over 0.0005" run out. I've always been pleased with the A2Z products, but these were a disappointment. Don ------- Re: Tramming the taig - A2Z ER16 end mill holder Posted by: "Adam Collins" rxforspeedx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:18 pm ((PDT)) Don, I'm glad I'm not alone -- I measured the TIR on my A2Z ER16 end mill holders (I own one of each: 1/2", 3/8", & 1/4") as well as nearly all my ER16 collets (Chinese-made Taig collets, Shars Chinese-made collets, and USA-made Maritool collets, but I still haven't checked my 7/16" Maritool collet as of yet) at their nominally rated sizes and near their maximum collapsable range in the Sherline ER16 spindle on my Taig ER-2019 CR (I wanted to check their fit on the Taig spindle as well but never got around to it), and got results as bad as and even worse than yours in all the holders from A2Z. They had far more TIR than even a disfigured 5/16" Taig supplied China-made collet after my attempt at fixing it with a reamer; the three A2Z holders of mine probably averaged around .006-.007" TIR. I have the results written down, but I have no clue exactly where they are at the moment -- I need to finish reorganizing the basement workshop before I'll find them. Send them back, get a refund, and make your own (secure a short, small boring bar in your vise to finish their bores while they're mounted to your spindle for maximum concentricity). Imagine what the TIR would be at the tip of a 1/2" end mill protruding 2" or more from the holders! These would only be useful for roughing material, provided you left enough meat for a decent finishing pass and didn't care for the longevity of the end mill... Adam ------- Re: Tramming the taig - A2Z ER16 end mill holder Posted by: "alighazizadeh" alighazizadehx~xxaol.com Date: Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:49 pm ((PDT)) Hi Don. The problem of excessive TIR is unfortunately quite common amongst third party accessories. I have 3 different head stocks for my Taig lathe and each one has a different set up from the other, if I wanted to use a chuck that was true on one head stock then I'd have to true it again on the second one. I have to say that there is more consistency between the Sherline stuff that I own but still I think that the best solution that people like A2Z could come up with is to supply the holders just undersized so that they could be turned and reamed to size on a particular lathe or mill and then these would be true on that particular head stock. This would be no different than truing a soft jaw on a Taig chuck. Regards, A.G ------- Re: Tramming the taig - A2Z ER16 end mill holder Posted by: "Martin Dobbins" trainnutzx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:39 am ((PDT)) Darren, Edmund, AG, Anyone else interested, Some people learn more from pictures or movies (I know because I'm one). The videos below show a much larger milling machine than the Taig but the principles are the same: Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2w8cYXt5_o Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-cAnQqpXs0&feature=plcp I hope that helps? Martin ------- Re: Instructional Videos was (Tramming the taig - A2Z ER16 end mill Posted by: "Martin Dobbins" trainnutzx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Sep 14, 2012 1:46 pm ((PDT)) > Thanks Martin, very good instructional video, did you notice there appeared to be runout of the part when he was drilling, or was that an illusion caused by the video, personally for myself I would have drilled then bored and then reamed, other than that it was a very good video, Edmund < Hi Edmund. If you look very carefully there appears to be runout in the outer body of the spindle above the part also, so either this is an illusion caused by the lighting and video process or the outer surface of the part has taken on the same runout as the spindle. I hope it is an illusion and not runout. Drilling,boring and reaming would produce the most accurate results, but may result in difficulty in buying or fabricating a boring bar small enough and with sufficient rigidity for small but deep hole sizes. Unfortunately there are too few instructional videos like this, so I am willing to forgive some blemishes to those with the courage to post them. For instance, this isn't perfect but I'd still be happy to buy the guy a beer for posting it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igfqYZPdQ78&feature=plcp Martin ------- Re: Tramming the taig - A2Z ER16 end mill holder Posted by: "Don" Donx~xxCampbell-Gemstones.com Date: Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:59 pm ((PDT)) I noticed the runout also. And I also agree that I would have bored to about 5 under then a finish ream. He quoted that he reduced the speed down to 200RPM. I would have used a spring loaded center on the dead end of the mill and hand turned the reamer into the adapter. It may just be me, but in 50+ years of reaming holes, I never managed to get one on size by powering it into the piece. Don ------- Re: Tramming the taig - A2Z ER16 end mill holder Posted by: "ED MAISEY" holmes_ca_2000x~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:21 pm ((PDT)) Don, when I said bore before reaming, when I'm reaming a hole I bore to 5 to 8 undersize as deep as I can reach then I just finish bore to size the start of the hole to guide the reamer to act as a lead in, of course if you're good you can finish bore to a good fit, a go and no go is worth while, but if you have a bunch and a reamer why not. Edmund ------- Re: Tramming the taig - A2Z ER16 end mill holder Posted by: "Don" Donx~xxCampbell-Gemstones.com Date: Fri Sep 14, 2012 8:14 pm ((PDT)) Ed: While the reamers have a good concentric lead in, they will run off a bit. That bore before reaming of yours should do the trick quite nicely. I received a note from Tim Goldstein of A2Z in reference to my complaint. I suggested, based on a suggestion from A.G. that A2Z should offer an undersize bore, or even a blank, like the Taig blank collets. His reply was "We have found that adjusting the runout by a simply working the shoulder only required tools that most people own (indicator, sandpaper on a flat surface or a fine flat file) and fixes the minor runout you have seen." Don ------- lubing the screws Posted by: "Andreas Grau" agrau31000x~xxyahoo.fr Date: Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:21 pm ((PDT)) How do you guys oil the X screw on the mill? Z and Y are easily accessible, but how the heck do I get my ATF on the X nut? My mill is still new and breaking in, and I want to be generous with oil to get stuff out and off the screws and ways. Thanks, Andreas ------- Re: lubing the screws Posted by: "Don" Donx~xxCampbell-Gemstones.com Date: Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:54 pm ((PDT)) There are a couple set screws along the center T slot on the table. Brush the crud off them and remove and drop some oil on the screw. Replace the set screws to keep the crud off the screw. An oily finger works to get to the ways. Don ------- Question on milling machine [taigtools] Posted by: "Edmund" holmes_ca_2000x~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:36 pm ((PDT)) any member, I'm going to remove the complete saddle from its base for shimming up at one end. I cannot see any location dowels for replacing the saddle to the base other than screws. Has any member removed one, and if so can they give any advise before I go ahead. Edmund ------- Re: Question on milling machine Posted by: "Paul J. Ste. Marie" taigx~xxste-marie.org Date: Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:16 pm ((PDT)) What I did was put set screws in the holes sticking out a bit to serve as locators. After putting the shims in place (btw, use a progression of shims so you aren't flexing the y-ways), I dropped the saddle in place over the set screws. then went to each in turn, unscrewing each set screw, pulling it out, and replacing it with the cap screw. If you hold a pick-up magnet to the head of the cap screw, it will conduct the magnetic flux down to the tip, making it real easy to pluck out the set screw after loosening it. One other tip -- tighten the cap screws in a pattern like you would a wheel when changing a tire. You'll need to remove the saddle from the y-ways to do that -- take the two caps screw off the end plate with the y crank, back the lead screw out until it comes loose from the nut, and slide the saddle and table off the ways. I had a heck of a time figuring out why the shims weren't having the expected results until very methodically went in a zig-zag and torqued the screws as evenly as I could, using a finger tip on the end of the long arm of an Allen wrench as a makeshift torque wrench. ------- Re: Question on milling machine Posted by: "Don" Donx~xxCampbell-Gemstones.com Date: Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:44 am ((PDT)) Paul's suggestion on the graduated shims is very important. If you do not do this, you will end up with a bow in the ways. I really question though that you need to shim the Y saddle. Unless the ill has been dropped and bent, the relationship between the Z mount face and the Y saddle mount should not have changed. Well maybe if you did overtighten the big column bolt, but you would really have to tighten it to warp that part of the base. Read my article, Taig-Column.pdf in the files section of this group. It's near the bottom of list. I show how I determined if there was a problem with the saddle or not. Even if the saddle base and z tilt face are out of square, shimming the saddle would be my last choice of ways to fix it. Scraping the bottom of the saddle would be one way, and having the base reground would be my first choice. Whatever method you use, the saddle can be cocked quite a bit on the screw pattern and I ended up with the face of the Z being 0.008" out of parallel with the X travel due to this cock It is an easy fix though, loosen all eight screws, then snug down just one corner, scan the Z face and tap the other end to zero run out, then snug down that corner. Now tighten all screws in Paul's pattern. I start with the center four and snug each screw down alternating side to side and fore and aft. Then tighten a little more in the same pattern, then repeat with the final tightening. By the way, my definition of snug is just slightly tighter than finger tight. ------- Re: Question on milling machine Posted by: "ED MAISEY" holmes_ca_2000x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Sep 1, 2012 2:40 am ((PDT)) Don, an update on setting up new Taig mill. The steel base was pretty well perfect. Two problems were found that solved the the inaccuracies I had. One was needing a tweak on the Z axis; the two side plates had some slackness and needing adjustment. The second was I had to shim the Y axis at the column end between steel base and mating bed. I now have a perfect tram of zero zero in both X and Y plane over a 10 inch span. I have to add that I am impressed with the quality and finish of the product, Edmund ------- Re: Question on milling machine Posted by: "Don" Donx~xxCampbell-Gemstones.com Date: Sat Sep 1, 2012 1:49 pm ((PDT)) Ed, you never told us how you determined that the Y was off by 0.008" and that the saddle needed shimming. Would you tell us what setup you used? ------- Re: Question on milling machine Posted by: "ED MAISEY" holmes_ca_2000x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Sep 1, 2012 3:28 pm ((PDT)) Don, after checking and re-checking all the Taig parts and found they were spot on, I must say I am really impressed with this little machine. The fault was on my end. After checking all parts I couldn't understand why it would be out so far, that's when I found out the cause. It was the two side plates on the Z axis; they needed adjustment. As I had the machine disassembled, I decided to place a half inch wide .002 shim on the steel bed and take a chance; it worked out perfectly. I have the machine set up with motors and at this moment about to test, Edmund ------- Re: Question on milling machine Posted by: "Edmund" holmes_ca_2000x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Sep 1, 2012 4:40 pm ((PDT)) "chuck" wrote: > Ed, what I believe Don is asking is how and where did you take your > measurements and what kind of setup did you use to determine the axis > was out. I too am curious. thanx, Chuck Chuck/Don: what I originally thought was an error of machined parts from Taig I was to find out eventually was my fault. The machined parts that made up the mill were perfect, so there was no error on the part of the Taig mill and manufacturing. That being said I'm still glad I went through the process. The tools I used were a black granite surface block 18" x 12" x 3", Mitutoyo finger Dial Indicator, also Verdict Dial Indicator, hardened ground blocks of all dimensions accumulated from Toolrooms, 1" dia small magnet, and a Moore and Wright 4" square. I took photos of the process and I will post them in a folder I will call it Edmunds Taig. You will have to try to get info from looking at them and working out what they represent, I can try to answer any questions if needed. I have to emphasize I jumped the gun in stating the error was in the machine, there was no error the machine is perfect, it was myself who was wrong not Taig. From my experience it's a beautifully manufactured machine, and I would certainly recommend it. ------- Re: Edmunds Taig mill [was Re: Question on milling machine] [taigtools] Posted by: "Don" Donx~xxCampbell-Gemstones.com Date: Sat Sep 1, 2012 9:27 pm ((PDT)) Ed, Your checkout of the Z column looks good as well as the bed checkout. However, it looks as if you were jumping ahead of the proper setup by using the spindle to sweep the ways. All that is going to tell you is that the axis of the spindle is perpendicular to the ways, not how the ways are moving. Example, You can have the column a couple degrees out of perpendicular to the X table and still be able to get a good tram reading by sweeping the path of the spindle. All you have to do is cock the dovetail to counteract this and you can now draws a circle with your indicator with absolutely no variance. However you will have trouble cutting because the Z is not moving perpendicular to the X. On one side of a Y cut, each step down will be a little closer or a little further away from the previous step, depending on which way the column tilt is. The proper procedure is to verify and adjust if needed, each movement. The datum is stationary, IE the edge of a square and the axis indicator moving up and down this datum line. If you mount your indicator on the Z slide, and lower it to the table, then traverse the table from end to end along the X. The only information you are picking up is how parallel the top of the table is to the X ways. If you mount your indicator on the table and indicate the side of the Z slide as it moves, all you are finding out is how parallel the slide side is to the center of the Box way. (On my mill, it is off by about 0.003" over the length of the saddle but this has no effect on cutting.) You could accomplish both these checks on the surface plate. Once you have the movements right, then mount the spindle and tram it. I guess I need to do another photo essay on what to check when doing the setup. I'll get started on it. Don ------- Re: Question on milling machine Posted by: "Don" Donx~xxCampbell-Gemstones.com Date: Sun Sep 2, 2012 10:50 am ((PDT)) > On 8/30/2012 10:51 AM, Don wrote: > > Ed, with the three point mount, you can't introduce a twist to the > > base when bolting it down. "Paul J. Ste. Marie" wrote: > Hypothetically you could, since the feet are fairly wide and can deliver > torque. That said, the unreinforced bends on the feet would flex long > before the square tubing. Paul: That is true. Both that you could and that is is very unlikely to happen. Not all twist and bends are the result of external stress, but some happen from internal stress. My wide Z way, which was over 10 years old, picked up a twist. If you laid it on the surface plate and pressed alternate corners, one pair would titer totter quite noticeably. When I measured it, there was a 0.005" twist. This is something I would more likely expect from cold rolled steel vs the hot rolled, but steel relaxes over time. I at first thought of re-grinding it, but purchasing a new one was a better economic choice. The geometry of the Taig mill is interesting. There are things that at first look like corners cut, but after analyzing them, there are some nicely engineered solutions to what could have been both an expensive way to do in a traditional construction, and one that would hold up well to inexperienced new owners. The three point mounting is one of these. The Z ways are another. Don ------- Re: Question on milling machine Posted by: "Paul J. Ste. Marie" taigx~xxste-marie.org Date: Sun Sep 2, 2012 11:52 pm ((PDT)) On 9/1/2012, ED MAISEY wrote: > the steel base was pretty well perfect, two problems ... > the second was I had to shim the Y axis at the column end between > steel base and mating bed, Interesting. That's the same place I shimmed mine. I never considered that the y-axis extrusion (200-15) might be at fault. I was assuming the problem with with the base, 200-10, since that is a lot more complex to fabricate. ------- Re: Question on milling machine Posted by: "ED MAISEY" holmes_ca_2000x~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Sep 3, 2012 12:14 am ((PDT)) Paul, yes what actually happened was I missed the slack on the Z axis, I checked it laying down on its back and missed checking the two side plates either side of the spindle headstock, consequently it was slack. When I checked the table I had a .005 error on Y plane, still did not notice the slack at Z, so checked the ways on Y axis using 4 rollers .008 error, still did not notice the slack. When I checked steel base on granite table for squareness it was pretty near perfect. So scratch my head, what am I missing? Ah ha, found the culprit. Adjusted side plates, recheck steel base, only .001 so decided to insert a 1/2" wide .002 thou, and with a sweep of 10 inches zero/zero both planes. Ran some code today, beautiful little machine. Edmund ------- Tramming log at TOC [taigtools] Posted by: "Andreas Grau" agrau31000x~xxyahoo.fr Date: Thu Nov 1, 2012 5:23 am ((PDT)) Thought that this is an interesting thing to follow: Someone over at the Taig Owner Club started a tramming log with pictures: http://taigownersclub.forumotion.net ------- Re: play in main body of the z-axis [taigtools] Posted by: "Don" Donx~xxCampbell-Gemstones.com Date: Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:50 am ((PST)) "pjskyguy" wrote: > I have a taig cnc mill, a dsls 3000, I'm having problems with play between the spindle main body and the boxway. I can eliminate some of it play tightening the jib but it applies pressure along the x-axis. my problem is play front to back along the y-axis on the back left side. I can put my hand on the spindle motor and rattle the box. there is movement between the main assemble and the "L" brace where it clamps behind the boxway. I have not had this problem before. I've been using the mill for abut 6 months. any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks Pete < Pete, the two "shoes", the L shaped backs are adjustable. The Taig video shows loosening the two screws and using a spring clamp to pull the shoe tight. I have found that to be too much pressure though, and simply loosening the three screws and holding the shoe tight, snugging up the screws. This is best done with the column removed from the base as the lead screw removes as well as the spindle and motor removed from the column. This allows you to slide the Z on the column by hand and get a feel of how tight it is. You want smooth movement without the looseness you describe, but not so tight it is hard to move. You can't judge how tight it is with the lead screw in place. Take a look at this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFF3w5wo6Ig Don ------- 're setting the mills' head [taigtools] Posted by: "cary brief" caryncbreeefx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:31 pm ((PST)) Hi all, when I moved my mill's head is no longer set right. I have been looking at the schematics and can't figure out what to tighten or loosen to set it right, I know how to touch off on the table, but not what to adjust. Thanks ------- Re: 're setting the mills' head Posted by: "Ron Thompson" ronx~xxourcadguy.com Date: Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:55 pm ((PST)) There is a large nut on the lower back of the column. Do not over tighten as it will distort the column. http://www.super-tech.com/root/taig/pix/STA-MicroMill/MM05.jpg ------- Re: 're setting the mills' head Posted by: "Yi Yao" yix~xxyyao.ca Date: Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:24 pm ((PST)) Also, the fellow making Taig CNC machines has a good video guide on how to do this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R58wz-m975g ------- Re: Milling vise suppliers [taigtools] Posted by: "Jeffrey Birt" birt_jx~xxsoigeneris.com Date: Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:34 am ((PST)) As others have mentioned the Taig vise has counter bored holes that line up with the slots in the table. A lot of folks have trouble using it as the movable jaw has a tendency to want to move up and bring the part with it when you are tightening it down. The trick is to bring the jaw up to the part, and then put an Allen wrench in the screw on the moveable jaw; now as you tighten the vise handle, tighten the Allen screw at the same time. It sounds complicated but is easy to master in just a few tries. Jeff Birt Soigeneris.com ------- Re: Milling vise suppliers Posted by: "Alex Wetmore" alexx~xxphred.org Date: Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:36 am ((PST)) There is no great Taig vise. The perfect one would have replaceable jaws, be low profile, and use the lock-down system that Kurt invented and that most milling vises copy now. I've spent hours combing catalogs and supplier websites, such a thing doesn't exist. The best option that we get are these sorts of vises: http://www.shars.com/product_categories/view/4120903/Precision_Tool makers_Vises 2" and 3" ones fit pretty well on the Taig. These would actually be close to perfect if they had threaded holes for jaw inserts. The screwless system is a little fiddly, but these cheap Chinese ones behave well if you replace the stock low quality hardware with higher quality parts (especially the small set screws). I also recommend getting a couple of pairs of the A2Z hold downs, they work great: http://www.a2zcorp.us/store/category.asp?Cguid={ABBC6035-C2D8-4B71-9E C4-6790DBB2F9BE}&Category=WorkHolding:MillingClamps For repeated CNC work I find it better to make a fixture plate that uses a couple of those to hold down the part than to try and use a vise. You can make reference touch off points to locate the fixture plate and get very good repeatability and you can hold down the work in the best way possible. alex ------- Re: Milling vise suppliers Posted by: "alighazizadeh" alighazizadehx~xxaol.com Date: Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:09 am ((PST)) Hi, I have quite a few precision vices for my Taig mill, the one below is very versatile and it opens to 3". It is not a quick working vice but it is precise. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Soba-1-1-2-Wide-Miniature-Pin-Type-Prec ision-Vice-Ref-110102-/300746417140?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=ite m4605e223f4 Regards, A.G ------- Re: Milling vise suppliers Posted by: "Alex Wetmore" alexx~xxphred.org Date: Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:10 am ((PST)) The problem with drill press vises is that the moving jaw lifts as it tightens, so they aren't very accurate or good at holding things flat. The Soba vise that AG posted is the same style that I listed from Shars. They don't have the lifting jaw problem. If the manufacturer took one extra step they could thread the jaws for optional soft jaws and then they'd be nearly perfect. The larger ones will hit the Z screw on a Taig unless you lift the whole Z assembly by one bolt though. alex ------- Re: Milling vise suppliers Posted by: "Ron Thompson" ronx~xxourcadguy.com Date: Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:29 am ((PST)) The problem with those is the height. If you are short on Z clearance, they can be problematic. I was taught to use a small round bar against the moveable jaw to counteract lifting. There is no perfect solution for every situation. I usually just clamp parts directly to the table or up on a sacrificial sheet of some kind. Ron Thompson On the Beautiful Florida Space Coast ------- Re: Milling vise suppliers Posted by: "Max Cato" maxsthekatx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:07 pm ((PST)) Thanks for all of the suggestions! Most of you have mentioned various things about clamping. Where can I go to get decent clamps? Is this something that I'm just going to have to make myself? Or, would a washer + nut be sufficient for clamping the vise? Sorry for the newbie questions, but I am a newbie :) Thanks again! Max ------- Re: Milling vise suppliers Posted by: "alighazizadeh" alighazizadehx~xxaol.com Date: Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:48 pm ((PST)) Hi Max, You could buy the clamps from the usual suspects including the nice but pricey A2Z CNC ones or you could make them yourself. There are a lot of information and articles on the net if you Google for them. There is no point talking about precision if you use off the shelf washers to put under the work as there is no guarantee that these are truly flat and of the same thickness, unless you make them yourself, easier said than done as they may need to be surface ground. I use a couple of blank tool steel of 1/4" or 5/16" size for lathe under the work if I wanted to clamp it as it gives the bottom enough clearance from the bed and these tool blanks are usually precision ground, just use two matching ones as the sizes could be slightly different at times. If you need to use a vice and you will have to at some stage then the type precision "screwless" vice or a precision tool makers vice is regrettably the only available choices for small mills such a Taig. Sherline also make a very nice vice and some real high quality clamps for their mills but the vice is on the small side (but fits a Taig mill) and not exactly cheap. Regards, A.G ------- Re: Milling vise suppliers Posted by: "Paul J. Ste. Marie" taigx~xxste-marie.org Date: Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:32 pm ((PST)) On 1/20/2013 10:48 PM, Max Cato wrote: > I recently picked up one of the el-cheapo vises for my > Taig:http://www.taigtools.com/c1225.html (part #2225, bottom left > picture). Only, it didn't come with any sort of clamps. Does anyone > know of a good way to clamp it to the table? It should have included a metal plate with two threaded holes and some 10-32 socket head cap screws. The plate slides into a t-slot, and the screws hold it to the plate. As far as a better vise goes, a 2" screwless vise from Enco works nicely, but you'll have to fabricate some holddowns. I used 1/2" square 1018 steel. Drill a hole for a screw, notch the end to match the slot on the side of the vise, and you're in business. Anything bigger than a 2" vise is going to be problematic. No good way to hold it down. ------- Re: Milling vise suppliers Posted by: "Paul J. Ste. Marie" taigx~xxste-marie.org Date: Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:16 pm ((PST)) On 1/21/2013 12:07 PM, Max Cato wrote: > Most of you have mentioned various things about clamping. Where can I > go to get decent clamps? Is this something that I'm just going to > have to make myself? Or, would a washer + nut be sufficient for > clamping the vise? Easy enough to make yourself. See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/taigtools/photos/album/495280139/pic/list? for some pictures. See also http://groups.yahoo.com/group/taigtools/photos/album/1728941955/pic/list for some tnuts and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/taigtools/photos/album/943126516/pic/list for some clamps. Do not use a washer and nut. You will regret it. ------- Re: Milling vise suppliers Posted by: "Pierre Coueffin" pcoueffinx~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:16 pm ((PST)) On Mon, Jan 21, 2013, alighazizadeh wrote: > There is no point talking about precision if you use off the shelf washers to put under the work as there is no guarantee that these are truly flat and of the same thickness, unless you make them yourself, easier said than done as they may need to be surface ground. < Selective assembly is your friend. I use lathe blanks as parallels frequently, but when I need a thin parallel, I like hardware store washers. I took a large bag of heavy fender washers about 5 years ago that I'd purchased for another purpose. I lapped the burrs off of them using wet/dry paper on a granite slab (which I usually use for sharpening stuff...) while watching TV. Took less than an hour. Then I used the micrometer to separate the pretty close to flat ones from the rest. Just dial the mike to drag on the washer, and rotate it past the anvil... If it gets tight or loose, it goes in the "for the swarf" pile, otherwise it goes in the pile of flat ones. Takes about half an hour. Then take that much smaller flat pile, mike one, lock the mike. Now use it as a go-guage. Any mostly flat washer that won't go through the gap, goes into the "too big (probably for the swarf)" pile. Any washer that will go through goes in the pile of good ones. Takes about 10 minutes... If this pile does not have at least 30 washers, then you probably want to set the mike a couple of thou bigger and start trying ones from the "too big, but flat pile". When you have about 30, you have something reasonable to work with. Now take your good ones, and mike them all. Write the thickness on them with a sharpie. Sort by size, and see if you have 10 or so that are pretty close. If you come up short, you might be able to lap a couple down to match size. Actually, if you want very high precision, lapping and measuring will get you as good as a surface grinder ever will... Just takes patience, and a DVD box set of some show you like (I recommend Firefly if you like sci-fi, though if you have a smart-flix account, you could watch some of Rudy Kouhoupt's videos while you make precision spacers.) You need to own the precision measuring tools anyway, so for a newbie, a quality mike is a good place to spend money. Other than that, it takes nothing special or expensive to do this. I keep my set of matched washers on an eye-bolt hanging from a peg. They are held there with a wing nut. I stacked them all together on the bolt, tightened a nut to keep them from turning, and cut two slots with a hacksaw down the edge of the stack... That way I won't mistake them for normal washers. If I ever make another set with a different thickness, I'll try to cut the slots to not line up with the first set. I might even cut 3 slots. ------- Leadscrew Issue [taigtools] Posted by: "jtursi22" jtursi22x~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:05 am ((PDT)) I have just purchased a Taig 2019 CNC mill. This weekend I assembled it and put on the servo motors according to some videos/tutorials that I have seen on different websites. The X and Y axis work great. There is minimal play in the lead screws and I am fairly confident that I have installed them correctly. The problem I have is with the Z axis. My Z axis cannot be turned with the servo motor and even with the servo motor off it is really hard to move. The following is what I have done to try and fix the problem; 1. I removed the Z axis assembly (slide, lead screw) from the column. Cleaned off all of the grease, chips, grim. Lubricated the lead screw with silicone, fed the lead screw into the nut. Still the lead screw cannot be move smoothly by hand. It is better than before cleaning. 2. I loosened the 3 screws on the nut that the lead screw feeds into. Still the lead screw cannot be moved smoothly by hand. 3. I removed the lead screw from the nut to check if the bearing were bad. The lead screw rotated good out of the nut. I fed it back in and still the lead screw would not move smoothly by hand. 4. I adjusted the nylon nut(holds motor coupler in place) per the video on taigmachines.com but still the lead screw does not move smoothly by hand. After doing all of the items above, the Z axis is still rough. Questions: 1. Should I grease the lead screw and the nut? What type of grease should I use? 2. Should I lubricate the lead screw with oil? What type of oil should I use? 3. Has anyone had a similar experience? 4. Do I need a new lead screw and nut? 5. Does anyone have any suggestions? ------- Re: Leadscrew Issue Posted by: "Lester Caine" lesterx~xxlsces.co.uk Date: Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:14 am ((PDT)) jtursi22 wrote: > 2. I loosened the 3 screws on the nut that the lead screw feeds into. > Still the lead screw cannot be moved smoothly by hand. The middle screw opens the gap, and the outer pair close it up. You SHOULD be loosening the outer pair and tightening the middle one. My rule of thumb is to loosen or tighten the nut until it just spins around the thread once when flicked. The other thing to watch out for is that the leadscrew thread is worn so that it is tight at the ends and loose in the middle. If this is a second-hand machine, then it may need a new leadscrew, but you should be able to get it running freely even if only over a shorter distance. Lester Caine - G8HFL Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ------- Re: Leadscrew Issue Posted by: "James Riser" jriserx~xxJamesRiser.com Date: Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:03 am ((PDT)) Did you adjust gibs? ------- NOTE TO FILE: A discussion started in Sat Mar 30, 2013 in the taigtools group regarding Taig backlash. You can find it here in the file called Sherline Mill Backlash, which despite the name, does contain backlash elimination tips for any mill or lathe. See the thread titled: Lathe Cross slide backlash [taigtools] ------- Re: Square tubing of taig mill [taigtools] Posted by: "Shane Adams" adamsch1x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun May 26, 2013 11:05 am ((PDT)) >> Had a curiosity about my Taig Mill. I've never taken it apart although I need to to do a good overall cleanup and oiling. Anyway I was wondering how taig managed to get the base tubing 90 degree square between the column and the y-axis base? [Parts 200-10 and 200-40]. Are they ground flat on one side or is the leveling handled some other way? Shane << pgmrdan wrote: > I don't have one but I just saw a video where the dovetailed piece on the mill column can be adjusted and shimmed to tram the mill. Not certain if that's what you're asking but no one has replied yet so I thought I'd toss that out there. :) < Thanks! I found a bunch of videos on Youtube by the owner of Taig [I assume] showing how to adjust and tram the mill and goes into a fair bit of detail. It looks like the tubing is ground flat after it's welded which makes sense to me now that I've seen it. Shane http://www.fuper.com ~ https://github.com/adamsch1 ------- Re: Square tubing of taig mill Posted by: "James Dethrow" dethrow2x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun May 26, 2013 11:42 am ((PDT)) hello all there is also alota good videos from tubal cain called "machine shop secrets" for those interested in learning from one the the greats. happy Memorial Day from james ------- Taig CNC mill [taigtools] Posted by: "ovipo58" ovidiu.popax~xxrogers.com Date: Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:32 am ((PDT)) I have a Taig CNC mill that is otherwise working perfectly fine. I can XY true the mill down to 0.2-0.3 mil/inch, the finish of the parts is very good, backlash is less than 1-1.5 mil (I installed ball screws on all three axes), in general not much to complain about the performance. There is an annoying problem though. As I said, I'm truing the XY axes before any new precision job. No problem, but the X truing doesn't seem to stick. If I measure the error on the X axis after a reasonable short and light job (usually aluminum with 1/4" micro grain carbide 2 flute bits, not more that 1/32" DOC pocketing passes, not more than 30-40 inch per minute feed speeds) is done, I find its up to 2-3 mil/inch, that's 10x the original set up. Obviously, the column is rotating during the workload. The post screw is tighten to the recommendation (tight but not crazy tight, to avoid bending), it's like the column is always slipping to the right. I tried various tightening, not much of a difference. Also tried lighter DOCs and feed speeds, same problem. Is there any way to avoid such column rotations and loss of the true setting? I would very much like to have the truing better survive during and between jobs. Or is this to much rigidity to expect from this little mill? ------- Re: Taig CNC mill Posted by: juangeltx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:41 am ((PDT)) mine doesn't shift. i've never done anything at 40 ipm, but i have rammed into clamped work and got hard stopped. all my slop seems to come from the nylon 4-pin couplers but it is a fixed backlash -- not something that is a function of travel. ------- Re: Taig CNC mill Posted by: editorx~xxmodelenginebuilder.com mrehmus Date: Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:58 am ((PDT)) I am just getting ready to use my TAIG for some production work on model engines. Looks to me as if there is plenty of room to put an automotive hose clamp around the two round sections just forward of the vertical column. I think that might give enough additional clamping force to keep everything in alignment. Certainly the additional leverage from clamping at that diameter will be better than the single bolt. Another trick that works but is a bit more destructive is to clamp a circle of abrasive paper between the two round sections. Good paper is probably fairly uniform in thickness and should not cause any fore and aft tilt of the column. ------- Re: Taig CNC mill Posted by: Donx~xxCampbell-Gemstones.com Date: Thu Sep 12, 2013 12:58 pm ((PDT)) The tilting column is an issue. When I got my mill, used, the guy had it in his garage and on the floor above he had a salt water aquarium that leaked and dripped on the mill. There was rust in a few places, and one was the faces of the base and column. I cleaned as best I could, then smeared some anti-seize compound on the faces. Huge mistake. It was still a manual mill at this point, and it showed no problem on the crank handles, smooth as silk, but within the first couple inches of cutting, things were going ugly. When you stood back and looked you could see about a 10 degree tilt to the left. I cleaned all of the anti-seize off and that improved things a bunch. My last job was fly cutting some Ancell bar stock and with a very slow feed, but a too aggressive cut, I stalled the spindle and over went the column yet again. I have been tempted to drill and ream a taper pin seat centered on the faces, a pin similar to the slot plug on my band saw table. I never saw a need for tilting the column anyway. You can fine tune the Z slide to give you an accurate tram with a stiff column. Just a thought. Don ------- Re: Taig CNC mill Posted by: "Jeffrey Birt" birt_jx~xxsoigeneris.com Date: Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:22 pm ((PDT)) If you are using the mill within its designed parameters you should not have an issue with the column. Remember it is a small desktop sized mill, it is not a Bridgeport Series 1. Fast light cuts are better than slow heavy cuts. When used manually taking many fast/light cuts is a pain but if it is a CNC machine then fast/light is typically faster as well. I always liken this to pick-up trucks. My little Toyota pick-up truck is great, I have put about 175,000 miles on it over the last 20 years and it still runs very well. I use it as a small pickup, hauling stuff home from the lumber yard, hauling a pile of sticks from the yard etc. It is not a 1 ton dually pickup, if I tried to use my little Toyota as a heavy duty full sized pick-up I would have thrashed it inside of two years. The mating surfaces of the column should be clean and dry. When something goes wrong and you crash the machine, the column having some measure of give acts like a mechanical fuse, better for it to move than to break/ damage the headstock. If the column is tilting with normal use, then something is wrong, you’re not tightening the nut properly, the mating surfaces are not clean and dry, etc. I’ve seen some guys build braces for the Z-column; while they do make it a stiffer machine, my fear is that such a brace would tend to make folks ask too much from the machine. Think of NASCAR, the more safety gear they give the drivers, the more risks the drivers take as they feel safer. Jeff Birt Soigeneris.com ------- Re: Taig CNC mill Posted by: "robert seddon" robert5721x~xxmac.com Date: Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:38 am ((PDT)) The big mistake can be ended with a liberal dose of acetone alcohol and one of those plastic brillo pads, and just keep it clean after that. Anti-seize is the worst stuff in the world to put on anything that needs to grip together. The roughened surface from the rust should help hold it. Good luck Robert Seddon ------- Re: Taig CNC mill Posted by: "Paul J. Ste. Marie" taigx~xxste-marie.org Date: Sat Sep 14, 2013 12:36 am ((PDT)) On 9/13/2013 6:38 AM, robert seddon wrote: > and one of those plastic brillo pads Scotch-brites? You need to be careful with those things. They can be surprisingly good at removing metal. ------- Re: Taig CNC mill Posted by: "ovipo58" ovidiu.popax~xxrogers.com Date: Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:53 am ((PDT)) I would agree that a fixed column may not be a good thing. I like the idea of having a safety mechanism in case of a crash. All I am looking for is a little more resilience of the normal operation settings. I will pull the column and clean again the surfaces, perhaps it will stick better this time. Anybody know the optimum torque to tighten the column? I was always scared of bending the frame, but now that I have a torque wrench... ------- Re: Taig CNC mill Posted by: "Jeffrey Birt" birt_jx~xxsoigeneris.com Date: Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:39 am ((PDT)) I called Taig just now to ask if there is a recommended torque value, as their docs just say you can get the nut pretty tight as there is a plug in the Z column to keep it from collapsing. They don’t work in the shop on Fridays so I will try again on Monday. In the meantime they do have this video out concerning tramming the mill: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R58wz-m975g I use a big crescent wrench or box end wrench and would guess that I’m torqueing it to 60 ft-pounds or so. Another thing I just thought of is that some guys are using humongous stepper motors on their CNC machines. For the Taig mill something around 160 oz-in is the perfect size, if you're using some of the 400 oz-in motors that are out there, you may be able to develop enough torque to push the column out of place (consider that the leadscrew is a 20 TPI so you have a lot of torque multiplication). Jeff Birt Soigeneirs.com ------- Re: Taig CNC mill Posted by: Donx~xxCampbell-Gemstones.com Date: Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:49 pm ((PDT)) The concerns about a crash not being able to displace the column don't take into consideration that there is no possible displacement for the Y axis and I've not heard anyone complain about that. Same motor, same pitch lead screw and same maximum stress that can be applied. Don ------- Re: Taig CNC mill Posted by: "Steve Blackmore" stevex~xxpilotltd.net Date: Sat Sep 14, 2013 12:46 am ((PDT)) Well said Don :) IMO better with a fixed column -- definitely on a CNC machine. The last thing you want is it moving unnoticed bit by bit as a job progresses. I trammed mine very carefully then drilled and pinned the mounting flange. The comment about a plug to stop it collapsing on tightening the flange must be a later addition as it didn't take much to distort mine, hence I pinned it. Even so, the column is not very rigid and you need to take appropriate cuts. Just because the collets take 10mm, it doesn't mean you could do a 10mm slot in one go. A major problem with most hobbyists is they try things that exceed the capabilities of their machine and use blunt tooling :) Most can't grasp that tools are expendable items and are missing the delights of cutting with new sharp tools. Steve Blackmore ------- Thoughts on overrunning ends of table on X saddle? [TAIGTOOLS] Posted by: jim_stollx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:00 am ((PST)) I've got a new tooling plate I've made for a specific part, that I'd ideally like to mount on my 2019CR (12" X travel), without having to take my (meticulously trammed, and regularly needed :-) vice off of the table to use. (The vice is already as far toward the -X end of the table as I can get it, for the work envelope that I need...) Unfortunately, the plate, and the X travel needed to use it beside the mounted vice, is a bit over what I've got in my remaining available X travel. (I stop moving in +X when the -X end of the table reaches that face of the X saddle, so as not to expose the X ways to chips/etc, as well as to try to provide the full length of the X ways to stabilize and support the table while machining.) I've previously cut away the corner of the X stepper mount plate, so that I get that extra ~3/16" where the mount would otherwise hit the +X gib adjuster on the saddle, but I'm obviously still short. My question is (there is a question buried in here...), how 'bad' would it be for me to run the end of the table about 1/2" past the edge of the X saddle? At extreme +X, there is still about 1.5" of lead screw still protruding past the drive nut in the saddle. I could definitely drive the table farther, but A) this would expose the ways (I would obviousy put together a way cover to take care of that...), but more importantly B) I'm concerned what effect that might have on rigidity, wear, etc, since the full length of the X ways wouldn't be in play. (I'd only drive it about 1/2" past the edge of the saddle, if I were to do this.) Anyway, thoughts, suggestions? If it were deemed by collective wisdom to be Ok to do this, I would likely build a 1/2" spacer block for the X stepper mount (shaped so as to allow over-driving that end of the table into the saddle by 1/2"), which would then allow me to over-drive by 1/2" on each end of the travel, thus buying me 1" of additional total travel (ie, 1/2" on each end), which would comfortably cover my needs. I appreciate everyone's input and advice! ------- Re: Thoughts on overrunning ends of table on X saddle? Posted by: "Stan Stocker" skstockerx~xxcomcast.net Date: Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:05 pm ((PST)) Hi Jim, I am perhaps missing something here, but this reads as though you are willing to do all of this just to avoid taking a vise off the table? I just don't understand. On a Sherline or either of my larger mills I can tram a vise in to under half a thou across the entire fixed jaw length in maybe 30 seconds, to a tenth takes a bit more, maybe a minute to two if I'm having an off day. Usually just plopping it on the table and shoving it against a good square or a snug bit of plate in the T slot gets to better than a thou with no muss or fuss. Plenty good for 99+ percent of the drawings or requirements I've seen in my life. As most stuff is only specified to a few thou just how meticulous do you have to be tramming a vise? It isn't like these machines are built to tenths, heck there's more leadscrew error than a few tenths per foot, even if you have ballscrews they have at least that much error. I doubt the perpendicularity of the X and Y axis is better than a few tenths, many machine inspection sheets allow half a thou to a thou per 6 inches just in that one error source. Doing setups and tearing them back down is just an everyday deal. Is there some horrific defect in the Taig mill that makes tramming a vise a nightmare event? I'm asking seriously as I don't own one. The provided kit of parts vise could make it a pain, as it can be on larger mills when using a two part vise. But even those get swept with an indicator and tapped into line quickly. I've got the milling attachment for the Taig lathe, use it rarely but sometimes it's just the ticket for a weird job. Tramming the fixed jaw on it seems pretty trivial if a few tenths is close enough. Sorry if I'm being dense. If you need to be able to use the vise in conjunction with the tooling plate, consider drilling and reaming for dowel pins to let you locate the vise darn near instantly. I'm assuming a vise that is ground all over as this style is prevalent on machines of the Taig and Sherline size. Lets you plop the vise against the pins, clamp it, do your deal, then yank it off, pull the pins, and you're back to a wide open table. Just remember to drill all the way through for the pins, at their own diameter or a tad smaller. If a pin jams, you can tap it out. It also lets air in and out so the pin doesn't refuse to push in, pull out, or for even more fun push in and pop back out. That's a real source of amusement when you're futzing through a quirky job. Yes it happens, yes it sucks. Learned that one the hard way :-) If you intend to use the pins a lot, use real hardened and ground locating pins and bushings. Plain reamed holes are OK for infrequent use, but will wear with lots of use, and a thou is enough to have things get a tad sloppy. If there's room on the plate and it doesn't interfere you can always pocket for the vise or install hard points or rails for rapid positioning. As an alternative, you could mount rails on the table to nest the vise, and add locating pins to the bottom side of the table (or holes) and a few though and threaded holes and just screw the tooling plate to the rails. Use a few rails if you are cutting hard enough to have flex issues. If you use countersunk hardware for the rails you can flycut over the top of them and ensure they are as flat as your original surface. Won't make your machine more accurate, but at least you won't add errors. Don't overlook getting a larger machine if you're making money making parts. I just added a cute little G0704 to the tool collection as it has some useful features for the clock work I do that my larger mill doesn't have. Easy to CNC as well, although that's less of an issue, my Sherline is 4 axis already and most parts fit its envelope. I considered a Taig, but for not much more I got a lot more table size and travel, R8, variable speed, bunch of other features without going to a silly large footprint. It's just about paid for, set it up a couple of weeks ago. By the end of summer it will be CNC'd with ballscrews and some healthy drivers. Sometimes it just isn't worth fighting the wrong machine or setup if you can make the problem go away in an affordable way. Good luck with it, Stan ------- Re: Thoughts on overrunning ends of table on X saddle? Posted by: "Jim Stoll" jim_stollx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:29 pm ((PST)) Hi Stan - I appreciate the thoughts. No, re-tramming the vice isn't the end of the world, but switching back and forth between it, and hoping for consistent tramming, takes me way more than 30 seconds, even on my best day. <:-) I make a particular part that has features on both sides that must be in pretty exact alignment, so I mill/drill one side, flip it around the X axis, then mill/drill the other side, and if the features on the two sides don't match pretty precisely (the vice being out of tram leads to this, due to the flip), it causes problems with the item's use/purpose. I've been bitten by that in the past, so when I get the vice trammed in well, I tend to like to leave it to heck alone. :-) Plus, I need to do some work on this new tooling plate/jig, then move the piece to the vice (granted, that operation doesn't rely on the tramming being dialed in as much as the part that I flip mid-way), so having to swap between the vice and this jig/plate mid-process is time-consuming for an amateur like me. I have considered putting pins in the bottom of the vice, and may yet, but my tram-it-and-leave-it-alone method has been working well so far (up until this latest thing, at least :-) so I haven't mustered that pin- embedding gumption as of yet for the vice. (I've got alignment pins on the bottom of this new jig/plate, though, and they're working great thus far!) Having an extra inch of X travel would really be a very nice thing, even w/ the vice/tramming thing aside, so I am curious if this is a bad thing, or a reasonable thing to do, even in its own right. (The spacer for the RHS would be about 1/2 hr of work max, so it really isn't nearly as much trouble as I apparently made it sound...) As regards another/larger machine - I would love that (sort of - I'd have to find a new room to use as my little home shop though :-), but I make (and sell) pieces to others in the RC helicopter community, but I do it at least as much as a hobby as anything. It's basically a partially- subsidized hobby - I make enough to cover materials and tooling, but not my time, and there's no real profit in it - I do it because I enjoy it (it gives me a great reason to work with the mill regularly), and because it helps contribute back to the community a little bit - and it does allow me to save up enough to buy some minor new tooling from time to time. There's no way in heck that I'd ever make enough to buy another CNC machine though (not even another Taig, much less something bigger :-) The Taig has been great for me, and I've come to accept its limitations (I say that, w/ the Taig being the only mill I've ever worked on...), but it is sometimes amenable to 'stretching' a little bit sometimes (ie, stretching its limits), and I'm wondering if this might be one of those cases. Anyway, I really do appreciate the thoughts/ideas on making the vice more-easily trammable, as well as providing a little perspective on the vice-tramming process (it really is a part of machining life, and if I were a professional, I'm sure I'd be a whole lot better/more-efficient at it). Bottom line though, if I can reasonably get an extra inch out of my X (w/o wrecking the machine in the process), and make it so I can take the lazy/amateur way of leave-it-to-heck-alone (the vice), it'd be win-win for me. :-) If anyone has thoughts on the feasibility/advisability of over-driving the table a bit past the end of the saddle, I'd be very interested in feedback on that, as well. Thanks! ------- Re: Thoughts on overrunning ends of table on X saddle? Posted by: "Jim Stoll" jim_stollx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:52 pm ((PST)) Oh, another quick-setup trick that I read about, but haven't tried - somebody mentioned creating a plate that clamps into the vice jaws, and little tabs that extend down beside the vice and extend down into the t-slot. You then just clamp the plate in the vice, put it on the table, push the overhanging tabs up against an edge of the t-slot, and clamp the vice to the table. Haven't tried this myself yet (reference the 'tram it and leave it alone' strategy I've been employing :-), but it sounds like a great potential combination of convenience and accuracy! ------- Re: Thoughts on overrunning ends of table on X saddle? Posted by: yrralguthriex~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:57 pm ((PST)) I would just try it. If it works, it's the correct solution for you. There is no best way. Only better ways. Watch and see if there is a decrease in accuracy or an increase in wear, then just decide if it's a compromise and if the compromise is acceptable to you. A true machinist will find ways to "make it work", and that doesn't always mean buying more or better machinery. Larry ------- Vise tramming WAS: Re: [TAIGTOOLS] Thoughts on overrunning ends of t Posted by: "Stan Stocker" skstockerx~xxcomcast.net Date: Fri Feb 14, 2014 7:10 pm ((PST)) Hi Jim, Now the U shaped bit of plate clamped in the vise trick sounds really cool. I've never heard that one before, but I'll hopefully get to try it out shortly. Thanks! Stan ------- Re: Thoughts on overrunning ends of table on X saddle? Posted by: "Don Rogers" Donx~xxCampbell-Gemstones.com campgems Date: Fri Feb 14, 2014 7:17 pm ((PST)) Jim, thanks for the re-post, I was just in the process of editing the HTML from your post to dig out the meat. From an old Machine Repairman's view, here is where you will run into trouble. Good news first, with the position of the X lead screw nut, you will not over run the nut until the table is nearly half way off the ways. IE about 3" of engagement. As long as you have some sort of way covering, this will not be a problem. Now for the issue I see. The Y saddle ways for the table is 6 1/2" long. Assuming a tight 0.001" clearance on the ways, you have a +/- error of about 0.001" per 6". When you start exposing the Y saddle ways, the 6 1/2" becomes something less, say 5 1/2" for a one inch over run. The 0.001" clearance is still there, but now spread over a shorter length, IE a greater angle. I'll leave it to you to do the actual math to see how much error will be introduced. Also, remember that the loss of length of engagement, so the stress is shared over a shorter length. IE 0.001" of clearance is normally just about right for a light film of oil. If the stress is increased, then you need a tighter fit, or a heavier viscosity lube which will introduce other problems, IE more force required to move the X, loss steps, etc. IF you can live with a bit of a loss of accuracy for the X axis movement, and/or with the slower moves you will need to use with thicker lubes, then you are OK. The choice boils down to what you can tolerate for a loss of X axis precession and / or performance. Don ------- Re: Vise tramming WAS: Re: [TAIGTOOLS] Thoughts on overrunning ends Posted by: "Thayer Syme" thayerx~xxgryffinaero.com tcsyme Date: Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:15 pm ((PST)) I have done this for use with my Sherline vise on an A2Z CNC Monster Mill and it consistently indicates within .0005 across the two-inch jaws. Since the plate is referencing the rear t-slot and is only a little wider than the vise, I can't set vise clamps in that slot with the plate in place. I usually use 4 clamps anyway so that isn't a real issue. With the u-plate in the vise I set the two clamps closest to me, remove the plate, then add the rear two clamps. It is a great way to go. Thayer ------- Source for Plastic Coupling Tubing for Taig Mill..... [TAIGTOOLS] Posted by: mbonfirex~xxhotmail.com mbonfire2002 Date: Sun Apr 27, 2014 2:17 pm ((PDT)) Someday will think about replacing the plastic tubing pieces (four) that couple the lead screw to the stepper motor on the Taig mill with an Oldham coupler...but not today. Can't seem to find a source on the webffor the plastic tubing...Nick C., do you sell replacement tubing? Does anyone know the OD and ID and what material/plastic for these tubes? People seem to refer to them as nylon. Thanks in advance, Steve ------- Re: Source for Plastic Coupling Tubing for Ta Posted by: "Lester Caine" lesterx~xxlsces.co.uk lscesuk Date: Sun Apr 27, 2014 3:06 pm ((PDT)) > Someday will think about replacing the plastic tubing pieces (four) that > couple the lead screw to the stepper motor on the Taig mill with an > Oldham coupler...but not today. Tony converted his a while back, but the problem is there is not quite enough space between the motor and the leadscrew so he cut back the thread on the leadscrew. http://www.jeffree.co.uk/pages/taigcncpt1.htm Producing a Dog to replace the lead screw end which the existing nut will fit inside is a little tight, but a dog which is threaded internally to replace the nut should be doable? Using the same profile as the 19mm or 25mm huco oldham coupling. Either would fit. Lester Caine - G8HFL Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ------- Re: Source for Plastic Coupling Tubing for Taig Mill..... Posted by: jnwooferx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:09 pm ((PDT)) Steve, I use ENCO 319-4869 Nylon Rod 2 ft $.86. Jim ------- Re: Source for Plastic Coupling Tubing for Taig Mill..... Posted by: "Rupert" rwenig2x~xxxplornet.com Date: Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:42 pm ((PDT)) Hello Steve, it's actually teflon tubing. I got mine from www.soigeneris.com The direct link is http://www.soigeneris.com/taig_stepper_coupler_tubing-details.aspx Rupert ------- Re: Current developments ... [TAIGTOOLS] Posted by: "Don Rogers" Donx~xxCampbell-Gemstones.com campgems Date: Sat Aug 2, 2014 9:47 am ((PDT)) Lester, a 1/4" x 20 Carriage bolt works very well with the taig mill bed. You have to grind, mill, or file one set of opposing sides on the head so it will fit the lower part of the T slot, but the base is a very nice fit. I'm not sure what the availability is on your side of the pond though. Don ------- Re: Current developments ... Posted by: "Paul J. Ste. Marie" taigx~xxste-marie.org pstemari Date: Sat Aug 2, 2014 8:33 pm ((PDT)) On 8/2/2014 1:26 AM, Lester Caine lesterx~xxlsces.co.uk [TAIGTOOLS] wrote: > The 20mm extrusion uses a 6mm slot and only goes up to an M5 hole M5 ~= 10-32 which is pretty standard for Taigs. > and I've not seen a captive nut for that :-( > All the clamp kits are M6 and it was nice that this bigger nut > actually fitted the slot :( Yeah, I hear that. I've made most of the t-nuts and clamps for mine from scratch. 1/2" sq 1018 is pretty easy to profile for t-nuts, and 1/4"x3/4" or 1/4"x1" flat bar makes serviceable clamps without too much ado. 1/4"-20 or 1/4"-28 t-nuts would be nice--you can get much better grade all-thread in those sizes. ------- Lubrication/cleaning of mill [TAIGTOOLS] Posted by: "Emil Johnsen" emilx~xxbrandasund.no Date: Sun Mar 1, 2015 9:08 am ((PST)) Hi, I have been using my 2019CR-ER mill for a few weeks now and I have a few questions. I've been using 10W-40 motor oil to lubricate the lead screws and ways. Will that work well or should I consider a different oil? How frequently should the mill be cleaned/oiled? I was milling some styrofoam at 1400 mm/min (55 ipm) and the lead screws felt dry afterwards. I was thinking that a higher viscosity oil/grease might stay on the screw at high rpm, but maybe it would also collect a lot of chips and dirt? Emil ------- Re: Lubrication/cleaning of mill Posted by: "Jeffrey Birt" birt_jx~xxsoigeneris.com jeff.birt Date: Sun Mar 1, 2015 9:17 am ((PST)) Taig recommends using automatic transmission fluid, it is inexpensive, and works very well. I tend to lubricate mine about every 8 hours of operation, it only take a few minutes though so you could do so each day before you start. I put a good amount on allowing the excess to drip off and carry away any dirt with it. I also like to run an exercise program that just runs each axis lock to lock every once in a while after I lubricate the mill. It helps keep from creating a ridge toward the center of the screw where it is run most of the time. Jeff Birt Soigeneris.com --- Sample exercise program: G90 M98 P1 L1 M47 M2 o1 G0 X0 Y0 Z0 A0 G0 x10 Y10 Z10 A10 M99 % ------- Re: Lubrication/cleaning of mill Posted by: gebowesx~xxyahoo.com gebowes Date: Sun Mar 1, 2015 9:29 am ((PST)) Emil, I believe that Taig suggests ATF as the lubricant and that is probably fine for most uses. You are operating at the high end of speeds for the Taig so you might want to consider purpose created way lubricants such as Mobil Vactra. http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENINDMOMobil_Vac tra_Oil_Numbered_Series.aspx I would suggest #1 on all your ways and sliding surfaces and possibly consider #2 on your lead screws. Alternatively, SuperLube could probably be used on your lead screws. I lubricate my mill every day that I use it and primarily use Vactra #1 on everything. Graham ------- Mill headstock sliding on dovetail [TAIGTOOLS] Posted by: "Emil Johnsen" emilx~xxbrandasund.no Date: Mon Mar 9, 2015 1:42 am ((PDT)) Is it a normal problem for the mill headstock to slide down on the dovetail? I noticed this problem yesterday when doing a circular cut trough an aluminium sheet. The set screw on the head felt tight, but I removed the headstock and cleaned it and the dovetails before I put it back and made sure it was tight. It still slides. It can move several mm doing one pass. I can not slide it by hand and when doing straight cuts it doesn't slide. Emil ------- Re: Mill headstock sliding on dovetail Posted by: "Tony Jeffree" tonyx~xxjeffree.co.uk tonyjeffree Date: Mon Mar 9, 2015 2:54 am ((PDT)) Definitely should not slide on the dovetail. If it is sliding then the screws aren't tight enough. Regards, Tony ------- Re: Mill headstock sliding on dovetail Posted by: "Steve Wan" stewanx~xxgmail.com wanstevex~xxymail.com Date: Mon Mar 9, 2015 2:38 am ((PDT)) Hi Emil. That's normal due to wear on the slides. Get an air spring to counter act the heavy headstock will do the trick. Steve Wan ------- Re: Mill headstock sliding on dovetail Posted by: "Tony Jeffree" tonyx~xxjeffree.co.uk tonyjeffree Date: Mon Mar 9, 2015 3:15 am ((PDT)) Steve There should be no wear at all on the dovetail plate that the headstock attaches to, and the headstock should NOT move on that plate. If it does, the headstock screw is not properly tightened. Regards, Tony ------- Re: Mill headstock sliding on dovetail Posted by: "chuck" chuckelsx~xxverizon.net chuckels431 Date: Mon Mar 9, 2015 3:13 am ((PDT)) Emil, are you sure it's slipping? Almost sounds like you are doing a spiral cut while cutting circles. Strange it does not move when cutting straight. Chuck ------- Re: Mill headstock sliding on dovetail Posted by: "Emil Johnsen" emilx~xxbrandasund.no Date: Mon Mar 9, 2015 4:24 am ((PDT)) Chuck, I'm sure it's slipping. I actually saw it move and it's easy to verify with a caliper. (A problem with my g-code doing some kind of spiral cut was my first thought too.) Emil ------- Re: Mill headstock sliding on dovetail Posted by: "Emil Johnsen" emilx~xxbrandasund.no Date: Mon Mar 9, 2015 5:53 am ((PDT)) Tony, You wrote "screws", plural. I have only seen one set screw. Should there be more than one? The screw felt tight, but I will see if I can tighten it more. Emil ------- Re: Mill headstock sliding on dovetail Posted by: "Tony Jeffree" tonyx~xxjeffree.co.uk tonyjeffree Date: Mon Mar 9, 2015 6:10 am ((PDT)) Emil: Depends which version of the headstock you have. The early headstocks had two screws, the new version has one. Regards, Tony ------- Re: Mill headstock sliding on dovetail Posted by: "Emil Johnsen" emilx~xxbrandasund.no Date: Mon Mar 9, 2015 6:17 am ((PDT)) That explains it. I ordered my mill in December. Emil ------- Re: Mill headstock sliding on dovetail Posted by: rex.landisx~xxyahoo.com rex.landis Date: Mon Mar 9, 2015 6:17 am ((PDT)) I had to put a physical stop under my spindle to keep it from sliding down. I couldn't tighten the clamp enough to keep it from slipping. The stop is a long screw into the male dovetail. ------- Re: Mill headstock sliding on dovetail Posted by: "Tony Jeffree" tonyx~xxjeffree.co.uk tonyjeffree Date: Mon Mar 9, 2015 6:25 am ((PDT)) > I had to put a physical stop under my spindle That sounds like a good solution - the weight of the head/motor assembly should make sure that the headstock doesn't move up under cutting forces. Regards, Tony ------- Re: Mill headstock sliding on dovetail Posted by: "Jeffrey Birt" birt_jx~xxsoigeneris.com jeff.birt Date: Mon Mar 9, 2015 8:48 am ((PDT)) Typically the headstock will move up if you are being too aggressive with your plunges and/or using a really large bit. If you have a dull bit it will amplify the problem. This is not a Taig only issue, I was trying to counter bore some screw holes last week on my Bridgeport Series 1 and the tool was dull enough that it was wanting to push back up in the collet. A sharper tool and it cut like a breeze. In the past year Taig changed the headstock extrusion by first thickening the rear web (i.e. back wall thicker, so distance from rear face to dovetail shorter.) Then they filled in most of the empty area behind the spindle bore and dovetail. This made it stiffer and will reduce the problem BUT if you are plunging straight down too quickly, especially with a large tool you will likely have a problem. On any mill you can’t force plunge the tool into the work, you have to take it slowly enough to let it clear the chips. It is best to ramp into the cut, much easier on the tool and the machine. Several years ago a friend of mine used a Taig mill as part of his PhD work. He was testing a new method of predicting the remaining service period of a machine (or entire system). Since bearing life has been studied to death it was a good way of comparing his method to existing methods. He ran the Taig mill 10-12 hours a day for about three months. He was cutting with a 3/8” end mill in 6061 Al plate as fast as the machine could handle it and all the lubrication had been removed from the bearings!!!!! A set of dry bearings lasted an average of 30 hours under this punishment! Even with all this abuse the spindle did not try to walk up the dovetail plate (plunges were ramped down into the work.) That same mill is still used almost every day. The holes we drilled in the spindle housing to mount sensors were plugged with set screws and the whole spindle cartridge was replaced as after 15-20 bearing swaps you tend to wear out the threads for the preload nut. Jeff Birt Soigeneris.com ------- Re: Mill headstock sliding on dovetail Posted by: "Emil Johnsen" emilx~xxbrandasund.no Date: Mon Mar 9, 2015 2:28 pm ((PDT)) I made a stop to put on the dovetail under the headstock. It's a piece of flat stock which I drilled two holes. I replaced two of the screws holding the dovetail with longers screws which also hold the stop. Picture: http://www.zeptobit.com/?p=215 Emil ------- Re: Mill headstock sliding on dovetail Posted by: "Paul J. Ste. Marie" taigx~xxste-marie.org pstemari Date: Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:42 am ((PDT)) > Is it a normal problem for the mill headstock to slide down > on the dovetail? If there's a lot of engagement of the side flutes, they can generate a lot of down force and pull the headstock down or the column over. Solutions: 1) Favor wide, shallow cuts over deep, narrow ones. For example, when making t-nuts, take passes 0.1"W x 0.1"D and not 0.05"W x 0.2"D 2) Use a rougher for roughing and limit finisher to the last 20 mils or so. The notches in the side flutes of the rougher limit the amount of downforce generated. 3) Use (non-chlorinated) brake cleaner and ensure that you don't have any oil or grease on mating dovetail components before mounting. ------- ------------------------------------------------------------------ This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------