This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------ Here are discussions on methods of producing tapers on the metal lathe, whether or not an original taper attachment is available. This file was renamed from Taper Devices to Taper Methods. Ideally every lathe would have a taper attachment, and turning tapers is then a relatively simple matter of setting up that device. Those lucky owners are probably a very small minority. And if you do not have a taper device, you could always make one; some people here have done just that. Plan sources are listed in this file. Or, like the majority, you will have to employ one of the taper-turning workarounds. It could be by off-setting the tailstock, or by using the compound slide. Help for you is a common topic here. And there may be a bit of advice as to how to repair an internal taper (example: a Morse taper) when it has some problems. Note there may also be some help tips in the file here called Atlas Repair or Fitting. If you got to this file directly from my HOME PAGE, return there by using your browser's back button. BUT if you came to this file as the result of a web search engine, see many additional files on my home page Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html SAFETY WARNING BEWARE: DO NOT ASSUME that any subject matter or procedure or process is safe or correct or appropriate just because it was mentioned in a news/user group or was included in these files or on this site or on any other web site or was published in a magazine or book or video. Working with metals and machinery and chemicals and electrical equipment is inherently dangerous. Wear safety devices and clothing as appropriate. Remove watches, rings, and jewellery -- and secure or remove loose clothing -- before operating any machine. Read, understand and follow the latest operating procedures and safety instructions provided by the manufacturer of your machine or tool or product. If you do not have those most recent official instructions, acquire a copy through the manufacturer before operating or using their product. Where the company no longer exists, use the appropriate news or user group to locate an official copy. Be careful -- original instructions may not meet current safety standards. Updated safety information and operating instructions may also be available through a local club, a local professional in the trade, a local business, or an appropriate government agency. In every case, use your common sense before beginning or taking the next step; and do not proceed if you have any questions or doubts about any procedure, or the safety of any procedure. Follow all laws and codes, and employ certified or licenced professionals as required by those laws or codes. Hazardous tasks beyond your competence or expertise should also be contracted to professionals. Let's be really careful out there. (c) Copyright 2003 - 2015 Machining and Metalworking at Home The form of the collected work in this text file (including editing, additions, and notes) is copyrighted and this file is not to be reproduced by any means, including electronic, without written permission except for strictly personal use. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 17:18:47 -0000 From: "W.C. Gates" Subject: 6" taper attachment - Request for Tailstock [File Note: they are referring to 1916 Popular Mechanics which has a very general article on making a taper attachment for any lathe. Also, it should not be necessary to actually attach the device to the ways. If the lathe is securely anchored to the table (solid!), then the device could be also-- thus requiring fewer holes and mods to the actual lathe.] Several weeks ago, I saw on eBay a different kind of taper attachment. This one was manufactured by Royal. It had a #3MT to go into the tailstock and a center that moved sideways on a micrometer slide. Also a small bubble level to get it true horizontally. That one was obviously too big for the 6", but since I saw it, I have been sketching designs for an adaptation to my 6" Atlas M101. I would like to try making such a gadget, but I don't want to modify my current tailstock to try it. Anybody out there have a old M101 tailstock I can buy? I don't need the ram or screw/handle, just the body. W.C. Gates ------- Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 10:48:10 -0700 From: "Maxwell Sandford" Subject: Re: 6" taper attachment - Request for Tailstock Mount an adjustable boring head in the tailstock, for example the 2" adjustable import head that is sold by nearly all the machine tool vendors. Position a live center in the boring head and use the micrometer screw in the boring head to offset the center as required. You have to find a live center with a straight shank (or turn a taper straight) to fit the boring head. This is a good small-lathe way of turning tapers without having to offset the tailstock. Even so, offsetting the tailstock with a dial indicator works well and it is not particularly difficult to return the tailstock to the center position, again using the dial indicator. The trick to cutting tapers is to cut the taper until you get close and then to try the fit and adjust the offset as required to get a proper match. Remove the taper from the lathe leaving the dog in position of course, and chalk a line down the taper you have cut. Fit to a female taper using a twisting motion and then examine the chalk mark to determine the change that is required to the offset. Adjust the offset as required using the dial indicator or the boring head adjustment screw, replace the taper in the lathe and take final cuts until the fit-check shows the taper is correct. This is the method I have used for quite awhile and it works well for me. Comments by the experts are always welcomed by me, because there are always different opinions and better ways (no pun intended). ------- Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 07:58:45 -0000 From: "W.C. Gates" Subject: Tailstock-mounted Taper Attachment- II Remember, please, this is for the Atlas 6" lathe which has a little, tiny #1 Morse Taper in the tailstock. Also, the ram diameter is small, so the rotational play of the ram due to looseness of its key in its slot is magnified, compared to a larger lathe. The idea here is to arrange some sort of horizontal dovetail slide with a micrometer adjustment, which moves a center out sideways a precise amount and is STABLE!. We also have to be able to move the center horizontally parallel to the ways, to grab the work and adjust the center tightness. I have this vision of a vertical plate with the dovetail slide, micrometer, and moving center cone, with the plate resting on the ways to prevent rotation; alternatively, this plate has a short rod out the back which fits into a hole in a plate attached to the tailstock, to prevent rotation. The back of this assembly would be attached to a newly-fabricated ram in a tailstock, which would hold it adequately rigid but allow it to be pushed forward to adjust distance between centers. Or, it may be easier to mill flats on the side of the tailstock parts to accurately mount a bracket and micrometer head to measure offset. That at least solves the rigidity problem. ------- Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 07:50:40 -0700 From: "Maxwell Sandford" Subject: Re: Tailstock-mounted Taper Attachment- II > Remember, please, this is for the Atlas 6" lathe which has a little, > tiny #1 Morse Taper in the tailstock. Also, the ram diameter is > small, so the rotational play of the ram due to looseness of its key > in its slot is magnified, compared to a larger lathe. Well, when I turn tapers in my 101.21400 I use a live center in the tailstock, set the offset, apply longitudnal pressure with the ram, and LOCK the ram. The back end is as tight as the dog and center at the headstock. I'm a big believer in KISS machining. The 6" tailstock has done well for me for over twenty years. ------- Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 15:55:34 -0000 From: "Jerry Lang" Subject: Atlas 6 inch taper attachment Anyone interested in a photo of the Atlas 6 inch taper attachment can visit Tony Griffiths web site in the UK . Click on Atlas then Atlas 6 inch Lathes then click on accessories. The photo is clearer than the one I scanned for several members. Also there is a lot of information about all sizes of Atlas lathes (and any other brand of lathe you can even imagine). Anyone want to know about a Atlas Peck-O-Matic? It's at Tony's site. Enjoy Jerry ------- Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 16:39:33 -0000 From: ptolemyx~xxbellsouth.net Subject: Re: Morse Taper Jerry Jankura wrote: > Is it something like "The taper is 20 degrees, > so you should only rotate the headstock 10 degrees Yes -- though I was using the compound slide. I set the angle to be the total angle of the taper, and not the angle between the edge and center. I originally set up the angle using a morse taper "dead" center. My conjecture was that if I set the center in the gap between the compound slide and my chucked part, the angle would be exactly correct when the top of the center was parallel to the bed just as the center fell through the space between the slide and the part. It turns out I was right -- to within four minutes of arc -- but obviously (in retrospect) the angle was double what it should be. For my second try, I chucked a morse taper "backwards", that is, with the small end of the taper facing away from the chuck, and used this to align the compound slide. This was not quite as accurate, but it gave me a starting point for "sneaking up" on the final taper. I adjusted the final taper by leaving the slide in place after each cut, but backing off the main screw to leave a tiny (almost invisible) gap under the cutting head. I then "rotated out" this gap by turning the compound slide what amounts to a few minutes of arc at a time. I constantly checked the taper against the tailstock I was going to be using it in. Eventually, I got it pretty much on the nose! Biggest lesson learned: If I had drawn a diagram of the cut first and thought a little more about the geometry, I would have seen the original angle was too big by double. Neil ------- Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 18:15:06 -0500 From: "David R. Kuechenmeister" Subject: Re: Taper attachment for Craftsman 6" 101 lathe I think you will be as happy making tapers by offsetting the tailstock. Just check the taper frequently until you have the tailstock adjusted to the correct position. No different than what you would have to do with the taper attachment. The only difference is finding the starting point. You can do that by just making a calculation and offsetting the tailstock from the headstock with a rule. The calculation takes the taper and workpiece length into account. If you would like I'll look it up and post it later. Regards, Dave ------- Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 16:37:47 -0700 From: "Maxwell Sandford" Subject: Re: Taper attachment for Craftsman 6" 101 lathe Use a dial indicator instead of a rule. Mount it with magnetic base to read the tailstock offset, and that way you can reset the tailstock to its proper position when you're done cutting the taper. The advice to check the taper frequently while cutting is excellent. You'll likely not be exactly right with the offset, so when you are getting close mark a chalk-line on the taper, remove it and check its fit with a known good female part, and then replace it. Use the same lathe-dog position it was in before you removed it. The formulae and calculations are in the Craftsman lathe manual. M. T. Sandford ------- Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 19:26:53 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Taper attachment for Craftsman 6" 101 lathe There is a simple method to get them perfect, namely to use the compound and indicate on your headstock or tailstock inside taper until the compound is perfectly set to your taper. Then turn up a taper between centers (so you can pull the center and check fit easily) and check it. Adjust if required, but be sure it is needed before adjusting. Roughness from turning can make it seem incorrect. Once you have it right, you can make several more. You can finish the rest of the tool later as you need them. I suggest making several because it can be finicky to get right, and you may as well get use out of the setup. Now the 6" may be too limited in travel on the compound to do a full length taper, but you may be able to get enough length to fit well, and then turn a "bumper" of smaller diameter to allow push-out on what would be the small end of the taper. Or you can borrow use of a bigger lathe, maybe. You want to use the type indicator with a lever arm at the end, not the plunger type. Jerry ------- Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 22:56:03 EST From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Taper attachment for Craftsman 6" 101 lathe merlinevx~xxAOL.com writes: > Does anyone know anything about a taper attachment to make Morse taper > shanks for different tools for a Craftsman 101-07301 lathe. I made morse taper attachements for both my 6 and 12 inch Atlas by using tailstock setover. Start with some oversize stock and you pretty well have to go by cut and try. Measure as well as you can, cut a short section of taper, put a chalk line and twist in the socket. When the chalk line is rubbed off the full length then go ahead and cut the full taper. Time consuming, but many of us have more time than money for our hobbies. If you have an existing taper you can copy just put your known taper between centers and adjust set over till the taper shows the same dti reading the full length. Of course your master taper has to be the same overall length as your work piece. John Meacham High Desert of California, Palmdale, Littlerock. ------- Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 23:19:50 EST From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Taper attachment for Craftsman 6" 101 lathe merlinevx~xxAOL.com writes: > Let me try the offset method. I was afraid that I could not get the > tail stock back to the proper relation to the headstock There should be scribed lines on the tailstock housing to line up the centers again. Check by putting a chunk of shafting you know is of constant diameter between centers then use your DTI which should read the same headstock end to tailstock end for final adjustements. For a quick setting bring tailstock up to head stock with a center in each. Put a thin rule horizinontally between the centers and pinch it lightly. Any offset in the rule will show whch way to adjust the tailstock to center again. John Meacham High Desert of California, Palmdale, Littlerock. ------- Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 07:19:20 -0600 From: "Skip Evans" Subject: Re: Taper attachment for Craftsman 6" 101 lathe >From: "David R. Kuechenmeister" >The best alignment tool you can make BEFORE you start fooling with >the tailstock is a test bar. Turn both ends of a six inch bar to a >precise diameter, say 1 in, for example. Then to realign the >tailstock, put the bar between centers indicate off the headstock end >with a dial on the compound. Note the reading on the cross-slide >collar. Back out away from the test bar, move the cross-slide to the >tailstock end of the bar and move it back in to the distance >previously indicated on the collar. Then adjust the tailstock to zero >out the dial and you have a taper-free setup. Have fun. Dave I do this just a little different. I built a holder for a dial indicator. This holder is mounted on the compound. To keep from having to make any changes to the cross slide, I pull the dial indicator plunger away from the stock when traversing to the other end of the test bar. My test bar is about 12" long and I only turned one end. I flip the test bar between centers. Now that I think about it, would I be better off turning each end? ------- Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 08:27:48 -0500 From: "David R. Kuechenmeister" Subject: Re: Taper attachment for Craftsman 6" 101 lathe I don't think you need to turn both ends. That's one of the best things about turning between centers-- the work is concentric and you can always flip it end for end. What I actually did was to turn a bar, then harden and grind it to a constant diameter. That way I can run the indicator up and down the bar and watch the runout. I just thought that was a little too complex for a home shop. ------- Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 08:41:59 -0500 From: "David R. Kuechenmeister" Subject: Re: Taper attachment for Craftsman 6" 101 lathe Sorry, I should have done this last night, but I was out shovelling the first round of snow. Quite a rare thing to do in Atlanta. The offset in inches is : Offset = (tpi * Len)/2, where tpi is taper per inch and Len is workpiece length in inches. or Offset = (tpf * Len)/24, where tpf is taper per foot and Len is as above. If there is a short taper on a long workpiece, i.e. a straight shaft leading into a short taper, the formula is Offset = (Len * (D - d))/(2 * L_t), where Len is overall length, D is the large diameter of the taper, d is the small diameter of the taper, and L_t is the length of the taper. There is going to be some variation in the taper actually cut, so just measure often by blueing the piece and marking lines 1 in apart. Then measure the taper per inch with a micrometer. You can do better if you take the piece out of the lathe and measure the taper with gage blocks and a couple dowel pins or a sine bar. I don't have a slab at home, so if I ever get the vibration in my lathe stopped, I think I'll just mike it . Regards, Dave Kuechenmeister ------- Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 14:47:14 EST From: Holyelvisx~xxaol.com Subject: taper I need to cut a short taper .320 in length, that runs from .470 dia. to .590 dia. How do I cut this taper accurately? Devin ------- Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 15:09:51 -0500 From: "Daniel J. Statman" Subject: Re: taper Is this a taper that you are copying from another part? If so, then you can chuck the part in a 3 or 4 jaw chuck so that it spins true. Then angle the headstock and with a DTI mounted to the cross-slide measure down the taper by turning the leadscrew to move the cross-slide. Tap the head to accurately get the angle right so that there is no deflection of the DTI when run down the taper. Lock the head in place and chuck a new blank and then cut the taper. Take light cuts so as not to torque the headstock out of alignment. If you do not have the taper already on another part, then it can be done with trial and error. Start with less angle than you need and cut from the large diameter down the shaft. Measure the small diameter at the length you want and adjust the taper slightly. Recut the length of the part and measure the small diameter, adjust as needed. Repeat until you have it right. This can take a long time and is a real PITA, but once you have the angle set, you can make as many as you need. Hope this helps, Daniel J. Statman, Statman Designs www.statmandesigns.com ------- Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 20:24:25 -0800 From: "Carol & Jerry Jankura" Subject: RE: Compound Slide and Tapers >>>I have a quick question about cutting tapers. I want to cut a few #0 MT and #1 MT for fixtures for my machine. I also noticed that the compound slide is the Internet special. My question: How much would / does the compound slide help in cutting tapers? <<< There are basically two ways to cut a taper on the Sherline Lathe. One is to rotate the head and use the conventional headstock. The other is to keep the head aligned and use the compound slide. I used the compound slide to make a 1/2 inch thread to MT-0 taper for the tailstock. I did it this way: 1. First mount the MT-0 taper that came with the lather in the 3 jaw chuck (gingerly so as not to damage the thread). Mount the compound slide on the cross-slide. 2. Eyeball the taper and set the angle of the compound. 3. Mount a Dial indicator on the cross-slide (requires some kind of clamping adapter) and move the compound up and down the taper. Fine tune the initial compound angle until there is no run-out on the indicator as the compound is moved back and forth. 4. Mount the piece to be machined. Replace the indicator with a cutter and have at it. Use the wide and narrow diameters on the original as check points for the new taper. Carol & Jerry Jankura Strongsville, Ohio ------- Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 21:43:10 -0500 From: "Marshall Pharoah" Subject: Re: Compound Slide and Tapers [sherline] January 27, 2002 "Daniel Kaschner" wrote: > Thanks for the help. I am going to get the compound slide tomorrow. I > know it would help for many other operations, but now that I can see how > it will simplify cutting Morse Tapers, well, that cinches it. :-) > After thinking over an earlier response, I started thinking and pretty > much came to the conclusion that was the process for cutting a Morse > taper, from a sample piece... I guess it is still somewhat hit-n-miss > if you don't have a sample taper, but it must still be easier > micro-adjusting the compound slide and test cutting than adjusting the > headstock (and the subsequent re-alignment)... I don't use a sample piece, at least I didn't for the first batch I cut. I did try chucking up the threaded end, but the other end wobbled and I couldn't stabilize it. So, this is the method I use: I chuck up a piece of 1/2 or 3/8 ground stock in the 4 jaw and get it centered using a DTI. I usually use a threading tool (carbide) at this point to scribe two lines an inch apart. Set the compound to the approx reading in degrees. This requires a significant amount of guess work. Next I mount a 1" dial travel indicator in the compound, and square it to the work; then set the compound travel handwheel to a zero reading, and adjust the carriage travel to get me at one of the scribed marks. Adjust the carriage cross slide to get the indicator in the middle of the operating range. I run the compound until I reach the other scribed mark, then check the indicator reading. Adjust the compound and repeat as necessary. Each time you adjust the compound angle, square up the travel indicator to the work. I posted the taper measurements just a few days ago, and don't have them handy at the moment, so you'll have to go back through the history, or get Alan to post them. I didn't mention above, but I've been turning the small end of the taper at the far end from the headstock. You need to take this into account when you read the dial indicator. The actual taper length for a #0 as supplied by Sherline is less than 1", so I usually check that and scribe while I'm scribing the other lines. I suppose that moving the travel indicator point along the work isn't quite correct procedure, but the ground stock is pretty smooth, so I don't feel I'm hurting it any. A bigger problem would be the indicator not being square, but that should cancel out because the angle of the indicator to the work doesn't change. Having done this and cut one that was correct, you can save a "blank" to use for future setups. As with most things, the setup consumes the time. The actual cutting is pretty quick. Marshall ------- Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 23:28:56 -0800 From: "Marcus & Eva" Subject: Re: Compound Slide and Tapers Hi Marshall and others: What you have described is the technically correct way to set up a taper, like all the textbooks on the subject describe. It is painfully tedious but will get you where you want to go. Let me describe for you, a far easier toolmaker's trick for setting tapers when you have a sample to work to. Clamp a parallel to the side of the compound slide that sticks up above center. Chuck up the sample taper in the 3 jaw (the drill chuck arbors are good for this, but don't bother taking the arbor off the chuck; just stuff the whole nose of the drill chuck into the 3 jaw after you open the drill chuck jaws all the way). Place a bit of white paper on the cross slide and shine a light on it. Now you can undo the swivel screws of the compound and swing the compound around until you can see no light between the side of the parallel and the edge of the sample taper. You can discriminate ten-thousandths of inches easily this way; it is actually more accurate than using a DTI, because you don't need to worry about having the DTI point exactly on center. Clamp down the compound slide, chuck up your part, and start cutting. Blue it in to a sample female taper and adjust by tapping the compound over 0.001" or so in the desired direction at a time. Takes less time to do than to describe. You can swing the head of the Sherline over in exactly the same way; all you need is a reference straightedge that is parallel to the long axis of the lathe. Just clamp a parallel to the side of the toolpost, and a round bar in the chuck. Orient the toolpost so no light shows between the parallel and the bar and clamp down the toolpost. Chuck up the sample taper and swing over the headstock. Line it up as before against the straightedge. You should be set up and cutting in less than 5 minutes if you have the parallel, the clamps, and the round bar to hand. The way that is traditionally described in textbooks can result in farting about for a half hour or more, and still typically requires adjustments to compensate for the errors introduced by the difficulty in getting the DTI point exactly on center. Of course, you can't do this particular trick if you don't have a sample taper to work to. This method also implies, of course, that the sides of the compound are parallel to its movement; the Sherlines are typically pretty good, and it's easy to measure whether they are or not. Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 11:59:23 -0800 From: "Craig Libuse" Subject: Re: Re: Compound Slide and Tapers For the interest of the Group; Morse tapers are "about 5/8" per foot. We presume the standards for each taper were set before today's accurate measurement tools were available. In any case, they can't change them now, or new Morse tapers wouldn't fit the old machines. (This is how Sherline got stuck with a 55.5° dovetail angle...) Each is a little different and none are exactly 5/8" per foot. For your reference, here is "official" spec for each: #0 = .6246 inches per foot #1 = .59858" ipf #2 = .59941" ipf #3 = .60235" ipf #4 = .62326" ipf #5= .63151" ipf #6 = .62565" ipf #7 = .62400" ipf Other dimensions of Sherline machines can be found at www.sherline.com/dimen.htm. Craig Libuse Sherline Products Inc. ------- Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 20:47:18 -0800 From: "kimche" Subject: Re: Taper attachment There is another yahoo group called "Print_and_Plans". This group has a taper attachment designed around a 9" lathe. It is all made with bar stock. Could be scaled up or down. 5 pages good pictures I'm getting material together to build one for my 10X54. Paul/kimche 10X54 qc. ------- NOTE TO FILE: There was an animated discussion in the atlas_craftsman group about the "proper" way to turn tapers. Certainly many lathe owners do not have a taper attachment and have to resort to other methods. Following are just a very few messages with ideas that may be beneficial. For full discussion, see the thread there under "Digest Number 1621". ------- Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 23:35:54 -0400 (EDT) From: x xx Subject: Re: Re: Digest Number 1621 Hmmm. The more I think about this, and the more I've seen what you guys think about T/S setover, the more I wonder why tail stocks are not commonly fitted with a leadscrew for that would be a dead easy feature to incorporate at the production stage. Maybe there are subtle reasons, such as Ron mentions: the buggering of the dimple and probably of the dead centre. On the other hand, ball centres would alleviate that, but newbies wouldn't have the tools or the skill to make ball centres. Hmm...ruminate...gotta sleep some more on the trade offs. Sam ------- Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 00:40:47 -0400 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Re: Digest Number 1621 rigrac wrote: > If doing Morse Tapers why don't you get a used drill with correct taper > and put in collet or 3 Jaw chuck and then just dial length of taper > until indicator reads zero from start to finish of that taper. Hi Ron: I've done this exact thing several times. Only drawback is that the compound travel is less than the length of a "real" MT3 on most lathes in the small shop. I think my SB13 has just enough travel, buy my Atlas 12 incher and SB9 do not. Not a problem for some stuff, it isn't as through you don't have enough contact area, but if you intend to make tapers that eject from the tailstock when the ram is retracted fully you need to leave a stub. Also a problem for drawbars unless you make a longer drawbar or leave a smaller diameter than the taper on the small end to internally thread. Trying to match two separately turned areas on the taper is a doable proposition, but not easy! I found it easiest to simply turn as much of the large end of the taper as the compound travel allows, then cut the remaining smaller end of the taper a thou or two undersize. This leaves as much meat as possible, while avoiding the hassle of trying to exactly match two different sets of cuts. Just break the shoulder so you don't ding up the MT socket the tooling is put into. Only so many times you can use a reamer before things start to seat too deeply. I dislike tailstock setover for three reasons: 1) You have to use ball nosed centers to avoid trashing the points of the centers or the center holes. At least if the taper rate is of any significant amount. 2) For multiple parts, the pieces must be exactly the same length, with center holes drilled to exactly the same depth. If not, the tapers on different pieces will be of different rates. 3) Getting the tailstock back on dead center is a fiddly bit of work, even with a test bar. When I must do tailstock setover, I usually use a two inch dial indicator on the bed, and a one inch dial indicator on the toolpost to set the rate in thou per inch. Indicating the work dead on center while moving the carriage exactly one or two inches allows you to fine tune the taper rate for each workpiece. Time consuming, but OK for a hobby shop or a special one off piece when a commercial bit of tooling just won't do. Indicating over two inches of travel improves the accuracy just a bit. You can also use a sine bar and jo blocks stacked to generate the complementary angle and adjust the tailstock for zero indicated deflection on the toolpost indicator when the top face of the sine bar is indicated. Ugly, and error prone as you must be set up perfectly on center and either use a short sine bar or a long work piece. As with everything, it's a time/money trade off. I don't have a taper jig for any of my lathes, making one is on the round toit list. Fortunately for me, doing tapers is a fairly rare event so I simply do the job when fresh and enjoy the fiddling to get it right. No way to make money, but OK for a pleasant bit of hobby shop time :-) Cheers, Stan ------- Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 08:28:53 +0100 From: "Ernest Lear" Subject: Re: Re: Digest Number 1621 This is the way I do it but I clock it up true in a 4-jaw chuck. Checking both ends to make sure its perfectly turning on the lathe axis before running the indicator dial fitted to the compound along the length of taper setting the compound angle until reading is zero over the full length of the sample taper. Now the compound is set to use to cut the new taper. Ernest ------- Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 10:57:54 -0500 (CDT) From: dswrx~xxwebtv.net Subject: Re: Re: Turning a taper Don't know if anyone has mentioned this method. It should avoid the hazards of moving the tailstock off center... Mount a boring head on an arbor that fits the the spindle taper. Mount a length of drill rod in the center hole in the boring head. Turn a center point on the end of the drill rod. Remove the boring head from the spindle taper arbor. Install it on an arbor that fits the tailstock taper. Mount the boring head with it's slide horizontal. Mount the work between centers. To set the taper, adjust the boring head slide. Haven't tried it myself, but I have not had a need to turn a taper! 8-) Leo (pearland, tx) ------- Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 04:44:35 -0000 From: "carbure2003" Subject: Re: #700 Taper Attachment Even though the #700 is for the 10 in only, I can tell you that with minor modifications it will fit a Altas/Craftman 12 in. I bought one recently. Some modifications are required on the draw bar (5 min with a vise and 2 1/4 in diameter drills to bend slightly the bar). The other modification is to the bracket that fits on the bed. (a little bit of milling) This taper attachment is much more versatile than the standard Atlas taper attachment. When I bought mine, I was about to manufacture a bracket to fit a South Bend taper attachment to my Craftsman lathe. In order to give the full range of operation to the taper attachment, a small extension piece has to be manufactured (a 2 to 3 in long steel plate bolted to the bed bracket). If the holes are not drilled in the saddle, then you will need to drill the mounting holes. The taper attachment allows to cut a taper up to 7 in long with a very quick reset on the bed. If mounted properly, it can be disengaged within some seconds. I can supply on request pictures of the taper attachment model 700 fitted on my Craftsman 101.28990 Guy Cadrin Gatineau, QC Canada ------- Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 05:17:39 -0000 From: "kelpas" Subject: Machining a taper I want to machine a taper in a short piece of rod and was wondering if someone can give me the equation for working out what degrees to set the comound slide at. I want the part to be .187" at one end and .282" at the other end and .500" long. Thanks Kel ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following is a answer contributed by Dan Statman, and tweaked by Radish, and corrected by Dan. The corrected math is here. Remember that the DIAMETERS needed at each end were posed in the original question. The correct triangle uses the difference between the RADII as one leg, and uses 0.5" as the other leg. ------- Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 07:07:05 -0500 From: "Statman Designs, LLC" Subject: Re: Re: Machining a taper >>> Hi Daniel, might be kinda wrong with my figgerin' on this problem, but I was taught to draw the problem and then add the numbers and then do the figgerin' out. If you draw the TWO triangles that will be created by the taper turning, you will soon see that there is 0.095" combined in the TWO triangles, halve the 0.095" for each triangle and you will now have 0.0475". Now to use the trusty ole' calculater and you will now come to the angle of 5.4268 to set the compound slide too. Have been known to be wrong on plenty of occasions, but have a look and see if I am wrong once again. radish <<< Radish, you are 100% correct, and I made a simple mistake. It is a simple right triangle trigonometry problem. The taper makes a right triangle with legs of length 0.500" and just the difference of radius = (0.282"-0.187")/2 = 0.095"/2__0.0475" The correct taper angle is the inverse tangent of 0.0475/0.5 = 5.427 degrees. Sorry for the error. BTW, I did draw the picture the first time, so that doesn't make it fool-proof, ;-) Daniel J. Statman, Statman Designs www.statmandesigns.com dan.statmanx~xxrennlist.com ------- Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 08:19:25 -0800 From: "keith green" Subject: Re: Machining a taper All considerations of math aside, all you need to do is set up a dial indicator on your crosslide. Wind it up the length of the long side of your triangle and the dial should read the length of your short side. The math will get you close but the dial will get you all the way. Keith ------- Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 22:19:11 -0000 From: "Radish" Subject: Re: Machining a taper Hi Keith, just trying to work out how the way you described to do the taper turning would work with a straight bar in the chuck ready to be turned. Just got an inquisitive mind and can not quite get my head around your way of doing it. radish ------- NOTE TO FILE: Keith's approach in the next message was also detailed by Marshall on 27 Jan 2002 -- see that message Re: Compound Slide and Tapers above in this file. Read both messages to get this idea clear in your mind. ------- Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 15:19:09 -0800 From: "keith green" Subject: Re: Re: Machining a taper Well, you put the bar in the chuck. Swing your compound over to where you think the angle is as close as possible. Mount your dial face-up on the toolpost with the stylus on the center of the rod and parallel to the face of the chuck. Set your dial to zero and wind the compound the distance you need to go. The dial should read more or less what the short leg of your triangle is supposed to be. Here's an example. If your rod is an inch and you want the end to taper down to ½ an inch over 1 inch, the short leg of your triangle will be ĵ" and the adjacent side will be 1". The hypotenuse is found using Pythagorus (a² + b² = c²), so wind the compound 1.125. If your dial reads less than ĵ" then your angle is too shallow, more and it's too steep. Make sure it's as close as you can get it because your error will be double when you cut. Keep the dial as flat and square as you can. If your dial doesn't have enough travel in it, you'll have to work out the angle for a shorter hypotenuse. Actually, if your dial has lots of travel left, it wouldn't be a bad idea to work out the triangle for the longest hypotenuse you can use; cuts down on your error. Keith Green Vancouver, BC ------- Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 17:50:43 -0000 From: "steve" Subject: Re: Machining a taper Thanks Keith, I've wondered how you set up accurately for a taper. A long travel dial gauge has gone onto the 'wants' list. Thanks again - Season's greetings Steve ------- Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 11:24:21 -0800 From: "keith green" Subject: Re: Re: Machining a taper Don't go wasting your money. I work on a lathe 30 ft long and swinging over 2 feet. Rarely need more than the one-incher. You just have to work out the taper for the travel you have. There are a couple little easy-to-remember formulae for triangle work that I use all the time. Just need a calculator with the sin-cos-tan functions on it. The acronyms to remember are; SOH CAH TOA . Say those three 'words' fast a few times and you'll never have trouble (too much) with triangles again. The 'O' stands for the side opposite (across from) an angle in a triangle. The first letters stand for the trig functions. The last ones, H stand for hypotenuse and A stands for the side adjacent (beside) an angle in the triangle. OK. You want to turn your 1" rod down to ½" on the end and taper it over 4". Draw yourself a right-angle triangle and fill in the dimensions you DO know and fill in a letter or symbol for the one you want (the angle). Now you should have a triangle with a short leg (oppposite side) of .25 (half the taper) and an adjacent side of 4" Look back to the acronym and see which one has the two terms 'O' and 'A' in it: TOA, right? So, write it down: TAN of the angle = .25 over 4" (draw as fraction). TAN of angle = .25 over 4 If you divide .25 by 4 and then do INVerse TAN of that number in your calculator, it gives you your an angle in decimal degrees. If you have trouble seeing this (wouldn't be the first), I will try to find the sheet I was given in school and scan it for the group. Keith ------- Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 03:01:08 -0000 From: "kelpas" Subject: Re: Machining a taper Keith, Sorry for the late reply. I set the angle with a protractor and then used the dial indicator to get it just right. Worked like a charm and only took ten min to set up. Thanks for your advice. Kel ------- NOTE TO FILE: Now choose YOUR preferred method for the job at hand. Whatever the case, I'm going to draw the triangle involved first. ------- Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 02:32:45 -0000 From: "thomaslittleford" Subject: Re: Nifty attachment plans? If you can find a copy of the Popular Mechanics do it yourself encyclopedia there is a plan for a taper attachment in volume 14 page 2572. I am looking at the 1968 version. You can usually find them in old book stores. ------- Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 22:18:20 -0500 From: "piggy" Subject: Re: Nifty attachment plans? i made a pretty nice taper attachment for my 12 inch atlas and i plan to make photos and plans avail but i dont know when i can get to it as i am busy killing alligators that are biting at my heels lol. it is easy to build one and if i put mine together on my lathe piece by piece taking photos with each piece installed then it will be very easy for someone to modify or copy the design on thier own. i will try to get to it this month but no promises. if you can come to south ga you can look on your own lol Don T. EVO Power & Machine www.accessatc.net/~piggy www.snartracing.com ------- Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1970 16:07:47 -0800 From: "Wm. Dubin" Subject: Re: Re: Machining a taper Keith: If you don't mind, I'd like to take advantage of your knowledge on tapers to ask a further question. I'm turning some small columns that I want to put a slight taper on, just enough to be visual. As you can tell, I haven't gone very far with this, because of this next part: I also want to flute these columns, so I need to adjust for this taper when I set up the rotary table and tail stock. So far, I've had 2 ideas as to how to try and do this: 1) to use the face-plate and dog at the rotary end, and to raise the angle of the tail stock until it was level through the taper, or 2) to use the mill table plate, set the rotary table & tail stock level on it, but slip a set of shims between it and the mill bed until the taper was level. Method #2 has the disadvantage of possibly harming the bed from over-tightening, #1 has the possible lack of strength in the face-plate/dog set up. I'll be using a 1/32" ball to mill the flutes, and at a depth of .0250 so there shouldn't be to much pressure on the column itself. The material will be brass. Thanks for your help on this, and for any other suggestions you or anyone else might add to this for me. Wm. ------- Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 13:11:29 -0500 From: "Statman Designs, LLC" Subject: Re: Re: Machining a taper If the taper is shallow enough and the flutes are deep enough, you might get by without angling the column when you cut the flutes. They will vary in depth as the taper does, but it may be just as visually appealing. I assume this is aesthetics only. Daniel J. Statman, Statman Designs www.statmandesigns.com dan.statmanx~xxrennlist.com ------- Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1970 16:54:50 -0800 From: "Wm. Dubin" Subject: Re: Re: Machining a taper Daniel: The taper will probably be something on the order of 1/16", as the length of taper will only be about 2". Still, unless I cut the flute deeper, I think thedifference will be very noticeable. And yes, it's strictly an aesthetic thing. However, if it works, I've been considering doing it also on a very large column - app. 7" of taper (which will be cut in stages on a large lathe and blended with a file. This one would require the flute depths to be uniform, so this is more like a test run. Daniel, as an aside, have you ever worked with PMC? Wm. ------- Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1970 16:57:30 -0800 From: "Wm. Dubin" Subject: Re: Re: Machining a taper > I would tend towards the first option, but only if you have one of > those dogs that eliminates slop (I assume you do). > Nothing wrong with the shim method either. Keith, thanks for the reply. The only dog I have is a rigid one that Sherline sells. I've not heard of one that will eliminate slop. Are there small (sherline sized) versions of this? (I order from MSC & J&L so I'll check their catalogues). Wm. ------- Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 11:00:42 -0800 From: Alan Marconett KM6VV Subject: Re: Re: Machining a taper Hi Wm: I did something similar on the column of a 1850 beam engine (inspired by M.E. plans) I'm working on. I used CNC on the Sherline lathe. My current part to make is the connecting rod (after I fix a bug I found in my XZ arcs). It will have a curved profile with flutes as well. I believe that the flutes on this piece are just parallel to the axis. I'll set up between centers on the rotary table and tailstock installed on the mill for this. Sherline has an adjustable tailstock, which might give you the taper you need. Easier then shimming, I think. Sorry I can't be of any more help, But this is new territory for me, and I'd like to explore it a little. I've also needed to cut rings on the column, which I did basically by hand. I first "boxed" them up for size, and then knocked off the corners, followed by filing. I know a profile tool would be the thing to use, but the one I attempted to grind had too large a radius to fit the arcs I wanted to cut. It did allow me to get to the backside a little bit better, but I still had to manually cut the rings. I'm open to suggestions here! The CNC tool paths I generated could not follow the stacked rings, and I still don't have the carbide insert holders needed to match Vector's turning tools. I'm attempting to use a 60 degree threading tool, and streight-in cutting. If I can get the taper/curves cut, and the rings "boxed" in, I'll be happy. Alan KM6VV ------- Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 14:10:03 -0500 From: "Statman Designs, LLC" Subject: Re: Re: Machining a taper PMC- precious metal clay? Never used it, but it looks interesting. The only think I don't like about it, from what I've read, is that is shrinks when fired. I have seen some cool pieces made with the stuff. Daniel J. Statman, Statman Designs www.statmandesigns.com dan.statmanx~xxrennlist.com ------- Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1970 17:50:44 -0800 From: "Wm. Dubin" Subject: Re: Re: Machining a taper Daniel, yes, that's the stuff. Here's the thing about the shrinkage, tomarrow I'm going to work with a lady down here with the stuff, She has told me, that IF I wrap it completely around a column in a few spots, and if it has something to hold on to, and she felt the flutes would do that OK, then it literally shrinks TIGHT against the brass column and will be as permanent as if it were soldered, and originally started as a casting. Don't know if this really is true, but it might open up an entire new world of bio-morphic carvings integrated on column(-like) pieces. Wm. ------- Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 12:50:13 -0800 From: "keith green" Subject: Re: Re: Machining a taper The one's [dogs] I've seen have two straight legs next to each other, either in a V- or U- configuration with a setcrew passing through the legs from outside to inside of the V or U. You mount a bolt in the slot of your faceplate with a jamb-nut so that it stays tight and in one place. The legs of the V or U pass over the bolt and the setscrews bear on the bolt shank from each side. When tight, they eliminate the slop. Keith ------- Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 16:25:38 -0800 From: "David" Subject: Re: Re: Machining a taper Wm: The only dog I have is a rigid one that Sherline sells. I've not heard of one that will eliminate slop. Are there small (sherline sized) versions of this? (I order from MSC & J&L so I'll check their catalogues). Many plans have been published (Home Shop Machinist, Model Engineer's Workshop, Rudy Kouhoupt's books, etc.) for making your own lathe dogs. They're pretty simple to make, fit much better than the cast ones (like Sherline's), and can be made to your own specs. The main problem with "slop," as I see it, is whether the lathe dog can comfortably accommodate the three-slot configuration (four-slot is much easier) of the Sherline faceplate, and whether the connection between the dog and the face plate is tight and without play. When you make your own dog, you make changes to its configuration to match the Sherline faceplate's requirements for fit and rigidity. Try it, you'll like it. Dave Wood ------- Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 18:40:50 -0800 From: "Marcus and Eva" Subject: Re: Re: Machining a taper Hi Wm: I followed this thread with interest, and I think I have something to contribute. The flutes you want to cut can be accomplished far more easily by the second method than the first. Set up your 4 jaw chuck on the rotary table to make it easy to center the parts perfectly. Mount the rotary table on the right angle attachment and then mount the works to the tooling plate with your tailstock at the other end. Tilt the whole plate up to the required angle. For a teeny cutter like this, you don't need much clamping pressure to hold the job down. It's a lot easier to tilt the whole rig than to fart about trying to get the tailstock at the right offset height, and to make sure the part can't rattle on the dog. This will become a significant problem whenever the slot on the faceplate approaches horizontal, because you can't easily snug up the slack without shifting the index position a bit. The dog leg needs to twist in the width of the slot, so the slot needs clearance for that motion. The setscrews that Keith is describing, take up that clearance, but you'll never know just where you positioned your dog leg relative to the slot when you reef on the setscrews. If you just let it rattle, you'll break the cutters for sure!! The other thing, is that you need to make the parts all exactly the same length and the centers exactly the same depth if you offset the tailstock. If you neglect this, your taper will be different for every part and it will be a major pain to get them all looking the same. Another option is to make a single tooth fly cutter and treat it like a saw. That way you don't need to tip the tailstock end up in the air, all you need to do is rotate the rig in the XY plane until your part edge is parallel to the X axis, and then clamp it to the table. Your cutter will be far stronger, but it will leave a longer runout, especially if it sticks out a fair ways. If you can accept this end shape, it's a better way than all the others, because you can take the cut in one pass. A third option, if you have the horizontal setup from Sherline, is simply to turn the machine into a horizontal mill and rotate the job as in method #2. Hope all this helps Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 11:00:55 -0500 From: "JERRY G" Subject: Re: Re: Machining a taper William, Or anybody who needs to do this. My suggestion. Make an adapter for the tail stock with a vertical slide. Key it in to maintain the "Y" location. Now just adjust in the "Z" dimension until your work is level and parallel to the table ways in the "X" axis. Any questions? Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 23:07:09 EST From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Digest Number 1395 > The main problem with "slop," as I see it, is whether the lathe dog > can comfortably accommodate the three-slot configuration Old time machinists trick to keep a dog tight to the face plate or driving plate is to bind the dog to the plate with a wet leather strip (Leather boot string?) When the leather dries it shrinks and holds everything in position. ------- Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1970 20:44:13 -0800 From: "Wm. Dubin" Subject: Re: Re: Machining a taper Marcus, (and everyone else who replied) Thanks for your long and involved piece on this. Last night I read Joe Martin's book, the part on turning tapers. As a Sherline lathe uses the headstock offset to turn a taper (with the faceplate & dog), it seemed that this form of solution might be duplicated by using the off-set tail stock with the rotary table/faceplate & dog. I agree that getting the angle exact would be difficult, but as my requirements are more visual than mechanical, I think I can come pretty close without to much difficulity - at least I'm hoping so. There will be 7 of these columns to flute, so getting the set-up once will be necessary and then it should flow. With the looseness in the face plate slot, I figured once I got everything in position, I'd wire it in place, so the inherent slop would be taken care of. What continues to bother me about mounting everything on the tooling plate is the effect of attaching it at an angle on the slots in the mills bed. These are really not very strong, and the idea that I might spring one, is NOT comforting. You mention I shouldn't need to much clamping preassure, but it seems like even a small amount could be dangerous. Using a rotary cutter like a saw wouldn't work in this case, as the distance of the cut (probably an inch to inch and a quarter at most) wouldn't allow it. I'm still a few weeks away from facing all this, so lots more ideas and concepts can go into it. Wm. ------- Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 16:21:35 -0800 From: Alan Marconett KM6VV Subject: Re: Re: Machining a taper HI Wm, I think Marcus is on the right track. I just milled four 1.5" flutes on a 4" long piece (conrod). Mine are simple horizontal flutes, made with a 1/4" ball end mill. As long as the rotary table and tailstock are rigid to each other, holding down to the ways should not be that demanding. I don't remember your taper, but if calculated over the 12" length of the X ways, can't be too much (good way to set up the taper, too). A pair of slightly longer screws at the raised end might be necessary, but that's all. I'd use the cupped washers (like the ones supplied with the stepped hold downs) to keep the screws aligned vertical. A custom plate would allow larger holes, which might be necessary with the screws at an angle. or just drill new hold down holes in your existing tooling plate. With the tooling plate setup, you can use a 3 or 4 jaw chuck to hold the work, and a dead center. No dogs needed. Dogs, I think, are better (only?) suited to holding a shaft for rotation in a single (loaded) direction. Without the load on the dog (from cutting), I doubt if it would hold the work for milling. You can easily match the taper by running a DTI (in spindle) up and down the taper after setting up your calculated taper on the ways. Just some thoughts, having just cut some flutes! (which look really neat, by the way). Alan KM6VV P.S. Pix of setup or part, if you want it. ------- Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1970 14:21:22 -0800 From: "Wm. Dubin" Subject: Re: Re: Machining a taper Hi Alan: Thanks for the great suggestion of using the the cupped washers, I had completely forgotten these, which I do own. With those in place, it does seem like the tooling plate method would work best. I'll have 2 sets of these to do. The first will be very small, a set of 7, each no larger than 3" in length, and the taper part probably only about 1 to 1.2500 inches long, so you are correct in that the taper itself would be very small and very slight. The second, and more difficult I would think, would be a column very much like the column that holds up a beam in the traditional beam engine...only in my case, it will be the rear "leg" holding up an entablature for a version of a side level beam engine using a 'grasshopper' configuration. The original was a tiny sketch of an old paddle-wheel engine a friend in Australia sent me. This uses two beams, and looks like a combination of an up-side down beam engine combined with a standard 'table' engine. This rear column (leg) will be at least 9 inches long, and from a blank that starts out at 2" thick. The taper will be very noticeable. The weight factor on the tools will come into play with this one. If you can send me a jpeg of your set up, I'de appreciate it. Wm. ------- Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 13:07:16 -0800 From: Alan Marconett KM6VV Subject: Re: Re: Machining a taper HI Wm: I've attached a pix of my flute cutting setup (no taper), and also of the parts I'm making for my Baby Beam Engine. The engine stands a little over 5" tall at the column. Actually I'm building two. One brass, one aluminum. Or at least that's the plan. The three sets of bearing blocks will of course be brass. I may decide to not make the brass engine completely brass (the base, of course, will be aluminum plate). What are your thoughts on mixing materials? C.I. or 12L14 steel for the piston, of course, for the brass cylinder, as these are to be working engines. In the engine parts pix, you'll see my first column tests. The column has a general taper, interrupted by rings. Also rings at the base and head. The rectangular base and head are milled and turned from separate pieces, and fixed together with three screws at each end. Mainly because I had yet to find suitable stock, and I couldn't turn it on the Sherline lathe (I don't yet have riser blocks). After hearing of your columns, I'm tempted to add flutes to a tapered column on one of my engines! Although that would further complicate the plans. The flywheel construction still looms in the near future, but the other parts are coming along fine. The parallel motion may cause some problems of their own, however. I've designed the motion, after established designs, but this is a relatively small scale, adding fine detail to the parts will be a challenge to me. I'm curious about your engine, the grasshopper engine is quite interesting. But you say a side level beam also? I'd enjoy seeing what you're doing! Too bad we're so far apart. I've also uploaded FlueCutting and BeamParts to KM6VV Engines in the files: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sherline/files/KM6VV%20Engines/ Best regards, Alan KM6VV ------- Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 20:02:04 -0000 From: "azbruno" Subject: Re: Looking for plans for Taper Attachment In atlas618lathex~xxyahoogroups.com, "mechanicjim2004" > Bruno or anyone else in the group intersted in plans for taper > attachment for atlas or any flatbed or v. lathe.if you have access to > a 1962 january Popular mechanics page 196 forward to page 200. There > are plans photos and extremely good explanations on how to build > this attachment.Good luck. Mechanic Jim I found this article in PDF format, but can't recall where. I also found it on a website just now: http://www.strippingknives.com/tools/taper.htm Bruno ------- NOTE TO FILE: A PDF copy is in the atlas618lathe file section at Yahoo. ------- Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 14:28:35 -0000 From: "jdmichael2001" Subject: Re: lathe centers In atlas_craftsmanx~xxyahoogroups.com, "bill_collins14" wrote: > Hi Carl,the centers are really easy to make.Use drill rod of the > appropriate diameter and length,calculate the tailstock offset needed > for the taper and just turn them to size. > I can whip one out in about 30-35 minutes.You can use either water or > oil hardening drill rod to make these from.Once they are made you can > heat treat the centers so they stay hard and the points won't gall up. > I have also seen a few at our local Sears store for a few bucks each. > GB. Bill C. Minford,Ohio Carl, what Bill probably meant to say and just forgot, is that a #0 Morse taper shank including tang is 2-11/32" long, is .3561" at the large end of the socket, .252" at the small end of a plug and has a taper of .05205" per inch so it could be made from 3/8" drill rod. If you're not finding a source, I'd suggest calling MSC and asking if they can get it for you. They can source items low volume items not in their catalog, they're friendly and have an 800 number (800-645-7270). Jan M. ------- Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 13:15:01 -0400 From: "mertbaker" Subject: Re: Re: lathe centers I wouldn't set the TS over for this. Just set the compound & use that. Mert ------- Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 11:36:11 EDT From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Lathe centers Mert: Been there, done that. Not enough travel in the compound to do the job, I had to set over the tail stock to make my pad center. The 6 inch Atlas had only 1-3/4 inch travel on the compound. I set over the tail stock, took a trial cut, chalk line on the work, try for fit, re-adjust the set over. Repeat till done. Maybe he does not need the full length for what he wants and there setting the compound may get enough of the taper for his needs. Made the pad a shrink fit on my new taper with a spigot on the end, Heated the pad in the oven, chilled the taper in the freezer and inserted the spigot, got half way home and got stuck, used it that way for several years and lost that center when I sold the lathe to go somewhere to Mexico. ------- Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 13:20:26 -0400 From: "mertbaker" Subject: Re: Lathe centers Nice thing about the 7xs is they use a short taper. So can the Atlas, but tastes differ. 1.75" is plenty for a #1MT. Mert ------- Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 23:00:30 -0500 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Lathe centers >> I wouldn't set the TS over for this. Just set the compound & use that. > Mert: Been there, done that. Not enough travel in the compound to do > the job, I had to set over the tail stock to make my pad center. The > 6 inch Atlas had only 1-3/4 inch travel on the compound. So then you cut it as long as you can, and let the rest be undersize and non-contacting. Keep the length so it will eject from the t/s. Another idea: Many good centers and arbors have contact only at two rings that have a space between of around 1/3 of the length. You could try re-setting and cutting most of the remainder of the taper, and your trial area becomes the "space" after you undercut it. Jerrold ------- Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 12:35:56 -0700 From: "Bob May" Subject: Re: Re: lathe centers I'll note here that the exact diameters for the small and large end are not critical but the taper itself is. If you're off by 0.020" fat/lean at one or the other end of a taper, it really doesn't matter as long as the taper angle itself is exactly right. Bob May http://nav.to/bobmay NEW! http://bobmay.astronomy.net ------- Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 19:53:44 -0000 From: "Carl Raish" Subject: lathe centers Fantastic response guys very helpful information, I never thought about making my own, but that is why we have lathes. Bill offered to send me some used ones so I can get the lathe aligned after I tore it apart for cleaning. I have located some drill rod, on the other side of town, Denver is spread from border to border. I am going to get 1/2 inch rod so I can make some new ones for my 618 (#1 morse). What does a guy need with 4 lathes, but that is my wife's question. Thanks for the assistance, I guess that is why I joined this group. Carl in Denver ------- Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 19:58:06 EDT From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: lathe centers Regarding making tapers by lathe turning. Can finish be achieved or is grinding required? Tapers I am familiar with seem to be ground finish. Louis ------- Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 17:14:30 -0700 From: William Abernathy Subject: Re: lathe centers Depends on the application. If you're looking for .001" accuracy and are not driving a tool with the taper in question, you can get a perfectly serviceable working finish with a good lathe bit, followed by a few grades of crocus cloth. William A. ------- Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 02:22:15 -0000 From: "flaskstoo" Subject: CQ54 Atlas taper attachment [atlas_craftsman group] I just acquired a taper attachment for my CQ54 Atlas lathe which appears to be complete. This attachment was the original equipment and attaches to the ways by bolted clamps. Another part is secured to the forward part of the cross slide but how is the end of this moveable bar affixed to the cross slide? Can someone explain this to me in an idiot proof manner. The back of the bar on this taper attachment has a pin and 3 screws but I just can't figure how it is supposed to be attached at this end. TIA. Donald ------- Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 16:47:03 -0500 From: Charle B Vincent Subject: Re: Digest Number 2038 You remove the hex head cap screw connecting the cross slide to the leadscrew and nut. This then aloows the cross slide to follow the taper attachment. The slide bar on the taper attachment has a large pin that drops into the hole in the crossslide casting. There should be three small set screws that allow you adjust the slide bar to mate with the cross-slide casting. Here is a picture: http://www.lathes.co.uk/atlas/img25.gif Charles ------- Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 20:27:59 -0400 From: "Timothy Stachlewitz" Subject: RE: Digest Number 2038 You can also contact Clausing and they will at no charge e-mail you a PDF file of the factory instruction manual. That is how I got the copy for my 700 style taper attachment. Tim ------- Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2006 18:08:54 -0800 From: William Abernathy Subject: Re: First Taper turn, and questions [atlas_craftsman] joegourlay wrote: > In the pictures section, under the "Joe Gourlay" section is my first > taper turning. It's an unintentially wicked spike. The machinist at > work gave me a foot of "pump shafting" that turns, and polishes in a > far superior manner to the mystery metal I've been using. > Some questions for you folks: > 1. The taper attachment has enough adjustment to turn an MT2 taper > for a dead center. However, the "spike" is the most obtuse point I > can get with it in my current ignorant state. How do I use the taper > attachment to turn the 60 degree cone end of the dead center? Don't use the taper attachment. Use your compound slide instead. > 2. Machinery's handbook gives the MT taper figure as something like > .599012678432059321456893 inches/foot, or something similarily > ridiculous. Two issues. First, the surface finish straight from the > tool is too coarse: i need to polish the surface. But when I do so, is > there great risk of changing the taper shape out of the workable range? If you use a round-nosed ("Finishing") bit, you should get an OK finish. Whatever tool you use, make lighter cuts as you get to the point where you want to stop. When you get within, say .010" of done, take a "spring cut," i.e., don't advance the tool into the work at all, just go over it again. This will A) make it easier to hit your mark exacty for the final cut, and B) help out with your finish. Once you get down to tidying up the results, get out the crocus cloth (essentially a wet or dry sandpaper on a cloth backing instead of paper) and rub it over the work while it's spinning at its slowest speed. Sandpaper won't remove more than .0001 at a crack, and if you use successively finer grades, you'll get a very acceptable finish, and no, you won't wreck your taper at all. > Second, this taper attachment ain't exactly...how can I put > this delicately..."high definition". I'm not sure I can, for example, > tell the difference between .57, .58", .59", adn .60" in/foot. What's > the right way to approach this with the tools I have? Ain't no way > I'm going to be talked into offsetting the tailstock... Use bluing to make the work easy to mark off. Once you have an inch long cut (measured longitudinally, not on the taper), blue the work, mark an inch from the end, and measure the work's thickness at the end and at the inch mark. You will be out, but you can adjust your taper attachment to bring it in closer. If you get the taper right before you exceed the minimum dimension, you're happy. If not, you get to chuck the work and start over. It is helpful to divide the in/ft figure by 12" to make this measurement in thousandths per inch. > 3. As long as I don't need saddle travel beyond the range of the > taper attachment ends, and as long as I have the guide bar set > parallel to the bed, is there any reason to every take it off? Can I > use the taper attachment for what I used to use the cross slide for? Inadvisable. The taper attachment is for cutting tapers. You ought to use it for that purpose (and you ought to be thankful that you have it!). You can't do a facing cut with the taper attachment on, and that's half the fun of a lathe right there. > By the way guys, thanks for all your great help thus far! Just remember to help the next guy. William A. ------- Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2006 15:14:05 -0800 From: Steven Harris <79ramchargerx~xxwavecable.com> Subject: Re: Re: First Taper turn, and questions > I can power feed either the "X" or "Y", but not both. So, how do I > manually, and consistently, drive the manual axis to achieve > a given angle? You don't; you use the compound. Which is manual. After you get the morse taper part done stick it in the head stock. Set your compound for 30 (half of what you want the angle to be). Position the tool bit so that it just takes the corner off the work. Repeat until you have the point completed. You do not use any feeds; you do this completely manually with the compound. Now the trick. If you want to power your compound, get a small cordless screwdriver (not the big 9.6 things but the little ones for under $20 bucks that take like 4 AA batteries). Make an adapter to drive your compound handwheel. There you go - power feed on the compound. Steve ------- Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2006 22:25:49 -0000 From: "azbruno" Subject: Re: First Taper turn, and questions In atlas_craftsman, "joegourlay" wrote: > but I still don't know how to get the taper > by hand--round nose tool bit or not. I can power feed either the "X" > or "Y", but not both. So, how do I manually, and consistently, drive > the manual axis to achieve a give angle? Or am I missing something? I would venture to say you're missing the compound. In case you don't have a description of the parts, the tool holder is attached to the compound which is on top of the cross slide on the carriage. The compound can be set to a desired angle and you use the crank on the compound to cut the taper. The carriage (X axis) stays put and the cross slide (Y axis) stays put while you hand crank the compound. Bruno ------- Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2006 22:37:58 -0000 From: "joegourlay" Subject: Aw, damn. Yea and verily, I am a dumb-ass. Pardon me now while I slink back into a hole somewhere... I'll report back when this thing is done. ------- NOTE TO FILE: No, Joe, that is not the case. We all have occasions when either a lack of information or too much data gets us lost in a new hobby. Some of this stuff is not intuitive or obvious until you actually have done it. We all have experienced being driven somewhere new on a complex route, and not learning how to get there until WE have to do the driving. That's where our friends can come in: offering advice and encouragement and a friggin' map! ------- Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 03:29:11 -0000 From: "speedphoto300" Subject: Re: taper ? [atlas_craftsman] >> I am in the process of building a taper attachment for my 10" Atlas >> and wondered about how long a piece can be turned before having to >> move the attachment. Thanks, Gary > You are building this, so make the taper guide as long as you > want. Mert Mert's right, of course, but as a guideline I would suggest making taper attachments about as long as the lathe swing, 10" in your case. Seems like most of the ones I've seen are about that. Joe ------- Re: All bummed out...... [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Glenn" glennx~xxentropian.com Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 11:36 am ((PST)) "Paul DeLisle" wrote: > > Well, I just lost an Ebay auction on a 10-12" taper jig.*sigh* jerdal wrote: > If you mean an Atlas taper attachment...They are NOT that fancy or > difficult to make. I have seen the one on my father-in-law's 12" >Atlas, and anyone with a mill or even a good hand with a file and saw >could make the darn thing. Clausing will send you the instructions for >the simpler one, which will give anyone with any mechanical savvy the >plans for it. Since they give it away free, I'd not feel bad about >forwarding the PDF if I can locate it. JT Don't be bummed out - some other sucker saved you a bundle o' $$$s. It's outrageous what Taper Attachments go for on eBay. They sell for more than the lathes that they fit. I second the build your own, and will be doing so when I get my mill up to snuff. The only real challenges I see are: 1) the scale - anyone have any ideas on how to produce an accurate scale in both taper per foot and degrees? and 2) precision of assembly - really a matter of careful work and maybe (in my case) paying someone to surface grind a couple of the parts. ------- Re: All bummed out...... Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 3:03 pm ((PST)) the scale is only an approximation, as are the degree marks on the compound.........u will set the taper by indicator on a known taper, or by trigging the sin of the angle needed.., or by good look guess & trial /error ...even setting by known taper may require "tweaking" ...marking the attach for a specific distance tween marks, say 5 or 10 in., & measuring the distance at each mark from the bed, subtracting one from the other, will give sin numbers for an initial setting more accurately than reading a scale... it has been tempting to drill/ream for taper pins for multiple commonly needed tapers, once their truth has been proven... some starret or other ground stock wud make life simpler but i wud not be upset to see one made from bar stock ...if u r machining w/ out a surface grinder, cold rolled can look like a bannana, removing stock from one side only ...think abt how i know that ...hot rolled be safer. best wishes docn8as ------- Re: All bummed out...... Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 7:01 pm ((PST)) Measure angle, set to degrees with protractor (an accurate one) or sine bar, then mark scale... To use sine bar, a cheap set of gage blocks or an adjustable parallel and a mic. JT ------- Re: All bummed out...... Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 7:12 pm ((PST)) One obvious way is to make the taper attachment into a kind of sine bar. Put big round pins at each end of a bar of known length, and mount a cheapie micrometer barrel so it can touch the pin at the end opposite from the swivel. Once you have it mounted and set to zero taper, you mount the mike such that it reads zero off the pin. Then, you can dial in the setting in inch per foot on the mike and pull the bar over until the pin touches the mike, and lock in place. It is not possible to get inch per inch and degrees out of the same thing, and I wouldn't try, as most tapers are just a few degrees. You'd need to read degrees, minutes and maybe even seconds. Yes, having the beam perfectly straight with parallel sides is going to be critical to make it work accurately. If you had a surface plate you could actually make it straighter and more parallel than most surface grinders could do, but hand scraping is a SLOW process. Jon ------- Re: All bummed out...... Posted by: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 7:25 pm ((PST)) The easiest way, IMO, to do the scale is to set up the finished attachment sans scale; set it to some arbitrary amount, scribe a witness mark, and turn a taper on a piece of scrap. Measure the resulting taper to the best of your abilities (probably either digital protractor or a sine bar with a dial test indicator on a surface plate), then repeat for 1-3 more arbitrary measurements. Measure the distance between the witness marks, calculate the relationship between them and the actual taper produced, then step off and mark the scale at regular intervals. I've read articles on making the dials for gauges (think a pressure gauge or humidity gauge) where the gauge is subjected to two arbitrary but carefully measured values, the response of the gauge needle marked, the physical relationship derived, and the rest of the scale determined from there. Also, micrometer heads (mic barrel without any anvil or frame) are a very easy and not too expensive way of accurately generating a precise offset. Much easier than using a scale or setting with gauge blocks. Even if I didn't use a micrometer head, I'd tend to use a fine thread bolt to allow me to adjust the setting incrementally, rather than just loosening it and sliding. I can't find it right now, but there's a guy (I think it was related to the Taig lathe, either on somebody's website or on Nick Carter's site) who made a great radius (ball) turning attachment with a micrometer adjustment for the cutting tool (which controls the radius of the ball). Michael ------- Re: All bummed out...... Posted by: "jmartin957x~xxaol.com" Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 7:55 am ((PST)) > The easiest way, IMO, to do the scale, Even easier, in my opinion, is to set a dial indicator on the lathe carriage, reading against either the taper bar or the slide/toolpost. Move the carriage a fixed distance (a scale will be accurate enough, as you are cutting small tapers this way), and see the difference in the indicator readings. Just be sure to load it and work against backlash. Saves the cutting of test pieces, which can be off due to spring, tool height, etc. It's also a good way to check a taper setting before actually cutting the workpiece. It's also more accurate than setting the taper to the settings on the taper scale. John Martin ------- Re: All bummed out...... Posted by: "Steve" skadsmx~xxpeoplepc.com Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 7:01 am ((PST)) Another way of scaling a taper attachment is to figure out what distance from the pivot gives you increments that match a known scale. About 14-1/3" gives you 1/4" = 1 degree. I used that to make a measuring tool that used a 1/4-20 screw to set the angle (20 turns gives you 4 degrees). This works for small angles. You can get scales in 1/8ths or 1/10's. Find a point that would use one of those as some increment of taper per foot, cut off one or two inches of the scale and mount it to the taper attachment. Steve ------- Re: All bummed out...... Posted by: "catboat15x~xxaol.com" Date: Wed Nov 7, 2007 3:55 pm ((PST)) I made new cross slide and compound thimbles (as well as a hand wheel and thimble on my lead screw) for my old six inch Atlas. I drew the scales along with numbers complete with short lines, medium lines and long lines using a CAD program. Printed them out on the computer and adjusted the scale with the cad program until exactly the right length to wrap around my new thimbles. Coated them with clear varnish and used them for several years and when I sold that lathe (dumbest thing I ever did) the thimbles looked good as new. If I weren't so lazy I would do the same for my current 12 inch Atlas, the factory thimbles are hard to read for my old peepers. I think the same idea using a CAD program to print out a scale for a taper attachment could be done in a similar manner. John Meacham from the high deserts of Calif 12 inch Atlas lathe, mini mill, HF band saw and a rusty file. ------- Re: Tapered shafts [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "catboat15x~xxaol.com" Date: Sun Mar 8, 2009 6:23 pm ((PDT)) Two long projects I had when I got my first Atlas were interesting. One was to make a "pad center" for the tail stock. That was done making a morse taper to fit the tail stock using the offset tail stock method to create a Morse taper. Lots of light cuts, chalk, check fit, adjust tail stock light cut again, try, etc., repeat till done. The second project was making a chuck mounting back plate from a raw casting for a new three jaw chuck. (When I started I did not have the money to buy such things, used nothing but a four jaw for several years.) For that bit of foolishness I got stock and centered it in my four jaw and made a duplicate of the spindle nose threads and flange. Then I used that as a gauge to cut the internal threads in the back plate so I could screw it onto the spindle and finish up the back plate on the lathe where it was to be used. That "false" spindle nose came in handy several times as I could leave work in the chuck, unscrew the chuck from the spindle and work on the piece I had chucked up in the drill press or vice, then screw the chuck back onto the lathe knowing the work was still centered. ------- Taper Turning [mymyford] Posted by: "alan4227" a.j.moorex~xxbtinternet.com Date: Sat Apr 18, 2009 8:13 am ((PDT)) I hit an odd problem yesterday and was wondering if the more expert members of the group could throw some light on it. I am making George Thomas's versatile dividing head and as part of this I needed to bore out the tailstock block to accept a 0.625in precision ground bar. I clamped the block to my faceplate and started off with a standard single point boring tool, going very carefully, as the bar needs to be an accurate fit in the block. In due course the bar would enter the block smoothly, but only up to a third of the depth. I was puzzled by this, but I didn't want to remove any more metal and risk an oversize hole, so I unclamped the block and offered up the bar to the other end of the hole. Again it entered smoothly but would only go a third of the way in. I seemed to have managed to turn a double taper on one pass using fixed settings. I could understand a single taper if the lathe was out of alignment (it's not) or if the cross-slide setting had vibrated loose during the cut (it didn't), but a double taper? Having slept on it I was no wiser this morning, but decided to reclamp the block, realign it and take an extra thou off just the middle third of the bore. The bar now slides smoothly all the way through. Can anyone enlighten me as to what was happening? One thought. The bar is clamped in the tailstock with one of GT's favourite brass pad bolts. The brass shaft for this was bolted in place and being turned away to the same profile as the steel block. Could the presence of the brass somehow make the boring tool remove less metal in that part of the bore? On first thoughts you would expect that brass, being softer, would offer less resistance to the tool, not more. Regards, Alan ------- Re: Taper Turning Posted by: "Norman Atkinson" ravensworth2674x~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Sat Apr 18, 2009 8:35 am ((PDT)) Alan, at a guess, you relieved a stressed piece of metal which grew! If you had used a bit of black bar, the odds of this happening would have been far less. Again, if you used silver steel -- 1. it would have been oval and 2. it would have certainly grown. If you had followed the old book on the Pillar Tool rather than the Workshop Techniques update, you would have found that cast iron can be worse. GHT changed the arms on the UPT for this reason. Sorry, but I hope that others will concur Norm ------- Re: Taper Turning Posted by: "alan4227" a.j.moorex~xxbtinternet.com Date: Sat Apr 18, 2009 2:56 pm ((PDT)) Norman, Thanks for the comments. I know that BMS pieces can change shape when you machine bits out of them, but I am not sure whether that is the answer to my problem. By the time I am doing my finishing cuts I have removed 99% of the metal I am going to remove, so presumably the shape has changed as much as it is going to. Why then doesn't the final cut (which is only taking off a couple of thou) produce a true cylindrical bore? Regards, Alan ------- Re: Taper Turning Posted by: "Norman Atkinson" ravensworth2674x~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Sat Apr 18, 2009 3:39 pm ((PDT)) I got expelled as a heretic (amogst other things) for this cast iron remark in Quorn owners. Soo what the H????? I bored a Quorn casting -- no probs. And then I split it -- and it closed. Again, I bored a Westbury mill head casting -- great and that half split it with a saw. And it Nipped! I was in good company as I said, the great George Thomas went before. Again, Tubal Cain wrote reams in the past. It may not be your problem solved but there are a helluva lot of old workers who who chuck your metal into the fire to relieve stresses. Maybe someone else can add their experiences. I would be the first to welcome them. Good Luck N ------- Re: Taper Turning Posted by: "Malcolm Parker-Lisberg" mparkerlisbergx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:54 pm ((PDT)) Twenty five years ago I ran the product development at a company in Hampshire, we made pressure transducers, amongst other things. Some low pressure transducers (for a place that made non chemical bombs) were causing problems with the transducer output jumping after they had been in service for nine months. It turned out that the castings were stress relieving after some time in service. The cure was to bake them in an atmosphere of nitrogen for 24hrs and then machine them. Can't remember what temperature, but it was a dull red colour. ------- [turning a taper to make a reamer] Hello [MyMyford] Posted by: "Bob Salter" bob.salter1960x~xxgooglemail.com Date: Fri Jun 26, 2009 1:08 pm ((PDT)) Hello everyone. I'm Bob, a complete noob to metal turning. I am a woodturner of twenty some years experience. I make primarily bagpipes, more specifically Uilleann pipes. I have long recognised the need for a metal lathe in my work and have finally bitten the bullet and await delivery of a super seven. I need to make reamers tapering from around 12mm down to around 4mm. I can then mill half the taper away and will be left with a nice d bit reamer. I will probably use silver steel for the job. Can anyone offer any tips as to how best to go about this?. Ive looked at a few webpages but the abbreviations are quite baffling. I realise these aren't easy to make. Are there any simple projects I could undertake so as to learn the required techniques? Any and all help would be most appreciated. Thanks Bob ------- Re: Hello Posted by: "Ken Strauss" ken.straussx~xxsympatico.ca kstrauss7 Date: Fri Jun 26, 2009 1:41 pm ((PDT)) I assume that the reamers are to be relatively long with respect to their diameter. Tapers are normally specified as either change in diameter per foot or meter of length or by the included angle. So how long are your reamers? If they have a very gradual taper then angling the compound won't work well. It is probably best to turn the taper between centers with the tailstock offset appropriately unless you also purchased a taper attachment. Using a boring head in the tailstock to effect the offset is a good approach since it means that your tailstock remains aligned. How do you plan to cut away the half-taper? Did you buy a milling machine or do you plan to use the lathe? Just ask if none of this makes sense and I'll try to find some web pages to help. ------- Re: Hello Posted by: "Bob Minchin" bob.minchinx~xxntlworld.com Date: Fri Jun 26, 2009 1:46 pm ((PDT)) Three ways (I can think of) for cutting tapers. 1) set the topslide to the half angle - only works for taper lengths up to the topslide travel and needs hand feeding; 2) set over the tailstock centre and use power feed... max length set by bed length; 3) buy the taper turning attachment... loads a money and max taper length somewhere between 1 and 2 above. Silver steel can be difficult to get a good finish on. Best to use free-cutting silver steel (different alloy) used to be called KEA 108 but I don't think that grade is made anymore. Carbon steel from here might be suitable http://www.clock-works.clara.net/cata/bsb1.htm good luck Bob M ------- Re: Hello Posted by: "Bob Salter" bob.salter1960x~xxgooglemail.com Date: Fri Jun 26, 2009 2:03 pm ((PDT)) Thanks everyone. The reamers are between 13 inch and 16 inch long but could be made in two or three pieces. I am in the uk. One attachment I have seen, but have no idea what its called was a flexidrive which had a head which fitted in the cross slide and allowed simple slotcutting. Any idea where I could get one? Ken, most of what you said went over my head. I would LOVE to see some websites. Any particular boring head? I guess I would need to do any milling in the lathe for now. Bob m, Is the taper turning attachment worth the money? Cheers Bob ------- Re: Hello Posted by: "John Stevenson" johnx~xxstevenson-engineers.co.uk Date: Fri Jun 26, 2009 2:44 pm ((PDT)) Bob, As others have remarked there are various ways to go about taper turning. The top slide is OK for very short lengths. The taper turning attachment is expensive and the same results can be obtained for far less cost. Offsetting the tailstock is not to be recommended as it takes just too much time to get it back into an accurate location for precision turning. Using a cheap import boring head has got to be the most cost effective solution given that the overall length that can be handled is greater than the top slide and the expensive taper turning attachment. This is a picture of one in use. http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/taperturning1.jpg Basically you place a turned stub in the boring head that has a centre drilled hole in it, same applies for the chuck end and the centered work is supported on two ball bearings so it spins free with no binding, which it would if you used normal centres. The work is then driven by a lathe dog, to give it it's correct name that is driven off one jaw of the chuck. The bonus of using one of these is the true planar setup of the machine is not altered as it would be moving the tailstock. Doing a long thin D bit as you quote would be better in 2 or 3 sections given flex in turning and also distortion in hardening. As regards the flexdrive do a web search for Hemingway Kits and they do a bolt on attachment called a One Step Mill [or similar] this is a bolt on milling and drilling attachment to do as you suggest but be warned it is not a cheap item. John S. ------- Setting a taper up [myfordlathes] [this is a new group] Posted by: "John" johnx~xxstevenson-engineers.co.uk Date: Wed Sep 30, 2009 1:58 pm ((PDT)) In reply to Christopher but I thought I'd do a separate post so the search could pick it up later. I'll try to explain this as best as I can without pictures as without venturing into that bloody haunted workshop [ and it's dark ] I don't have any. This is for making a taper to match an existing one rather than a generic one off a drawing, ideally for Morse and similar tapers which are the most often reproduced. Tools needed, pattern of known taper, piece of parallel round, either test bar or just a piece of decent round scrapbinium, any old square lathe tool. That's it, no DTI, no sine bar, no ear of bat or tongue of newt. [1] Stuff test bar in chuck or between centres, set top slide to zero on scale. [2] Put lathe tool in toolpost with square non cutting side lying along the same axis as the test bar, pack up so centre hight is about 1/2 way up the tool, not critical. [3] Advance tool so it touches work and turn toolpost so it make contact along the whole length of the test bar and lock. The idea of this is so the test bar, tool, and top slide are all in the same plane. [4] Don't touch the tool to toolpost. [5] Back off and replace the test bar with the sample taper; machine reamers make good subjects for Morse tapers as they have a parallel bit you can hold on between the flutes and the taper. [6] Slacken the top slide screws / clamps and carefully advance the tool so it lies along the taper; at this point it will slew the top slide over. Make sure the tool is in contact all the way along using a sheet of white paper on the lathe bed so when you look down you can see an equal gap, or use two pieces of fag [cigarette] paper. [7] Carefully lock the top slide off. That's it, job done, no measurements, no DTI, FBI, VD and Bar but the top slide is now able to replicate a taper accurately enough so a bit of bluing and wet and dry [abrasive paper] will make a perfect taper. It actually takes longer to write up than do; just give it a try, it really is easy and accurate. John S. ------- Re: Setting a taper up Posted by: "Christopher Hicks" cmh21x~xxcam.ac.uk Date: Fri Oct 2, 2009 8:06 am ((PDT)) The method is obvious, but is entirely dependent on the accuracy with which this step can be accomplished. If we assume that the combined inaccuracy of the engraving of the scale and the inability of the operator to perfectly align two engraved marks amount to 0.1 degrees, then the diametral error over a 2 inch length of a shallow taper is a few thou by my reckoning (2 x 2 x sin(0.1) = 0.007). Is this really good enough? Am I overly pessimistic about the engraving accuracy on my beautiful little lathe? It seems the obvious thing to do is use your method, but use a dial gauge clamped in the toolpost to get the top slide running parallel to the lathe axis as the first step. Christopher Hicks ------- Re: Setting a taper up Posted by: "myford7x~xxymail.com" Date: Sat Oct 3, 2009 3:13 am ((PDT)) Christopher: You're misunderstanding John's method. It does not rely on the scale engravings. The tool blank is set parallel to the turning axis by contact, and clamped, with the top slide NOMINALY at zero degrees, but it wouldn't matter if it was at 1.2345 degrees. It is the clamped tool which acts as the datum for the next step. ------- Re: Setting a taper up Posted by: "John" johnx~xxstevenson-engineers.co.uk Date: Sat Oct 3, 2009 7:46 am ((PDT)) > Well I'm afraid I'm still confused - surely the topslide moves along it's own axis, not the tool blank's. If it is set over to 1.2345 degrees when the tool blank is on the lathe axis, then when the topslide is moved around again to (half) the MT2 taper, the topslide will then move along an axis with an angle of (half) MT2 taper plus (or minus) 1.2345 degs to the lathe axis. Or have I missed something? (- it wouldn't be the first time!!!!!) MikeD (Sunny and blustery Pembrokeshire) < No I perhaps should have explained a bit better when the mark is on zero the topslide has to be parallel to the lathes axis. For a really accurate job then it could be dialed in. I have checked mine at some point in time and the zero mark is zero. However if there is a slight discrepancy then a small amount of work with a known good taper, a large felt tip pen and a strip of emery will soon clear this up. Even with a perfect turned taper it can be improved by a tad of polish. All it takes is to try this method once to say make a morse taper blank and you will be hooked on the simplicity. John S. ------- Re: Setting a taper up Posted by: "callinicus1953" callinicus1953x~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Sun Oct 4, 2009 2:11 pm ((PDT)) Hi my follow Myfordians, Just to muddy the waters a bit further, if any of you have issue #27 of MEW there is an interesting article on cutting a morse taper. The interesting part is that the article is on "A Tangential Skiving Tool", I am sure some of your will know this technique but I had never heard of it before, nothing unusual there but I'm trying. Sorry can't post a copy on this site, copyright issues, but if you can't find it, I might be able to help individuals. cj (UK) ------- Re: Turning a MT2 taper... [taigtools] Posted by: "Shad" shendersonx~xxthegeekgroup.org Date: Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:11 am ((PDT)) On Fri, 2009-10-23 at 14:01 +0000, jeffrey.hood wrote: > In my quest to solve my problem with the MT2 to 3/4-16 adapter, I > found on Nick's blog a post where someone used a 3/4-16 bolt and > turned it down to solve a similar problem... > How difficult (and how would one go about it...) is it to turn a MT2 > taper...? I have the compound slide, but in looking at the MT2 specs, > it is a -very- specific amount of taper, and the angle is so small I > wouldn't know how to set the compound accurately... I was thinking of > turning on center and offsetting the tailstock with an indicator to > the .0500 per inch on the MT2 taper, but was hoping that there might > be an easier answer... Thanks, JH I cut an acceptable MT2 taper on my Taig lathe, and here's how I went about it. YMMV. First, I grabbed my trusty MT2 "standard", by using the proper tool to remove the MT2 arbor + chuck from my drill press. I then put the 4 jaw chuck on the lathe and grabbed a piece of 1/2" linear shafting (precision stuff). I got that running dead-nuts concentric. I then grabbed the 1/2" bar with the Jacob's chuck, and used a dial indicator to ensure that there was no wobble as measured *on the taper!* Once that was done (I had about .002 of wobble, good chuck!), I put the compound slide in place. I was cutting towards the headstock in this case. I laid a short length of 1/2" linear shafting (more precision stuff) in the T slot of the compound and lightly clamped it. I then lightly tightened the compound slide so it could be "nudged" with a tap. I then locked the carriage in place. I cranked the cross slide over, tapping the compound slide as I did so, until the bar on the compound slide was snug against the tapered portion of the MT2 arbor on the lathe spindle. I put a sheet of white paper below the parts so I could easily see any gap. Once I had the compound slide set at the proper angle, I carefully rotated the lathe spindle by hand to ensure that the bar on the compound contacted the MT2 taper evenly throughout the rotation. Once that was verified, I cranked the cross slide back, and locked the compound in place. I then added two extra clamps on either side of it (clamping it to the cross slide) to ensure it didn't move under cutting forces. Once all that was done, I took the jacob's chuck off the 1/2" bar, removed the bar, and grabbed my workpiece in the 4 jaw chuck. Centered it, and used a scribe to mark where the taper should *start* on the workpiece. That will be the line you cut to. I removed the linear shafting from the compound slide, and mounted the cutting tool with that little clamp. I used a 1/4" shank indexable carbide tool, and *plenty* of cutting fluid. I aimed for the bare minimum of overhang I could. Less is better. I positioned the carriage so I'd have sufficient travel of the compound slide to cut the entire taper length. I then locked the compound in place. *don't move it till you're done!* Since I was cutting towards the headstock, I began taking my "nibbles" on the right end of the bar. Advance the cross slide, lock it, then advance the compound slide. Unlock the cross slide, retract it, retract the compound, advance the cross slide a little more, lock it, and advance the compound slide. Rinse, lather, repeat until your final cut ends up at the afore mentioned line. The biggest pain in the nether regions is getting a smooth feed. The compound slide on the Taig is wonky at best, and downright bendy the rest of the time. I *HIGHLY* recommend devising some sort of method of smoothly advancing it. I cheated a bit. I have a small low RPM gear motor (10-12 RPM IIRC) that I fit a rubber roller on. I would get ready to advance the compound slide, and simply press the rubber wheel against the handwheel's edge. That yielded a smooth cut without the wobbling associated with hand-cranking. I did it because I was in a pinch and needed to take a measurement on my old Atlas horizontal mill (which has an MT2 spindle). The *only* other reason I could think of to turn the taper on the Taig, vs just buying a blank arbor or collet set, is for the long arbor that cutters mount to. I only have the 3/4" arbor. I'd like to make a 1" and 1 1/4" arbor so I'm not so constrained by cutter bore size when cruising eBay or the Florida Flywheeler's Fall Fuel Up event and see 'em on sale. Hope it helps! Shad H. ------- Re: Turning a MT2 taper... Posted by: "jeffrey.hood" jhoodx~xxhmcon.com Date: Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:01 am ((PDT)) Thanks... I think that I might be able to handle that... great description of the process... JH ------- Re: Machining Question: Offset Taper [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "catboat15x~xxaol.com" olewilly2000 Date: Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:37 pm ((PST)) When I had to make a Morse taper to fit the tail stock to fabricate a Pad center to place work on while drilling from the head stock. I simply took a piece of hot rolled steel and put it between centers with a lathe dog to drive it. Offset the tail stock to the exact value of TLAR (That looks about right) and started turning from the tail stock end. After enough taper was done to allow a trial fit, I chalked the new taper and put it in the tail stock and the chalk marks showed where any adjustments were needed. (I was pretty far off with the TLAR medhod) But kept adjusting and checking until I had a good Morse Taper. I put that in the head stock with an adapter and turned a spigot on the end and shrunk on a piece of plate to make my pad center. Time consuming, but doable. Then when I had to face off the end of a three inch copper tube I did not have a steady rest at that time and feared trying to chuck up a piece of tube. I turned an aluminum plug for the chuck end and for the "free end" I made up a plywood steady clamped to the ways. Greased the hole in the ply that I had bored with the blank ply clamped to the ways so it would align with the spindle. Worked fine for that one job. Then on the square head six inch I sold in a moment of complete stupidity to buy a Smithy. I added the poor man's power cross feed. Turned up a drum about one inch diameter to fit on the right hand end of the lead screw and a similar drum on the cross feed handle. A cord wound up on the cross feed drum was un-wound and re-wound on the lead screw drum (with a pulley clamped to the bench to go around the curve. Was then able to face off work without the steps that cranking the cross slide manually always gave me. You can use your imagination to do things on your Atlas or other lathe that are not in the manual. That is one reason the screw cutting metal lathe is called "The mother of all machine tools" Now How about the lecture on "Leveling"? ------- Re: Machining Question: Offset Taper Posted by: "KENNETH TAIT SR." papatait45x~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Nov 17, 2009 6:42 am ((PST)) Catboat15: That was the way I was instructed to turn a taper way back in school machine shop. We had two great teachers that had spent a lot of years in the field before becoming teachers. They had a lot of tricks up their sleeves that were not in the books. I wish I could remember 1/4 of what they showed us. Papa Tait Seekonk, Ma. ------- NOTE TO FILE: This next conversation starts with a common question about what is the existing taper in the tailstock/headstock/whatever. Name the particular lathe model and someone nearly always provides the answer. But what if you have to actually measure the taper? Read on. ------- Tail Stock Taper [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Thomas" tbradt2303x~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Mar 2, 2010 5:48 pm ((PST)) I am trying to identify the taper of the tail stock on my Atlas Craftsman 12 inch model 101.07403 lathe. I have been told that it is a 3JT taper or a 3MT taper. How can I check to make sure of which taper I have? ------- Re: Tail Stock Taper Posted by: "Bill Stietenroth" k5ztyx~xxjuno.com Date: Tue Mar 2, 2010 6:13 pm ((PST)) My 101.07403 has a confirmed #3 Morse taper in the spindle and a #2 Morse taper in the tailstock. Bill ------- Re: Tail Stock Taper Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" docn8as Date: Tue Mar 2, 2010 6:33 pm ((PST)) The factory taper was morse 2 taper for t.stock ....easiest check is w/ a morse 2 center, taper drill, or any standard morse 2 tooling. Textbook measuring is w/ 2 different sized ball bearings & measuring the distance between how far they go in the taper, which gives the taper/inch which is then checked in a handbook that lists various tapers. You can also turn up two diameters of bar, faced off true... & measure the difference how far each goes in the taper (CAREFULLY, so you don't roll over an edge). best wishes docn8as ------- NOTE TO FILE: There is an excellent discussion about collets and collet chucks in the file here called Atlas Collets. It starts Dec 6, 2010. And then there are good tips about cutting tapers using the lathe compound, useful for making your own collets or collet chucks. ------- [atlas_craftsman] new article available: Using A Taper To set the Compound on a Lathe Posted by: "RG Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Tue Jun 7, 2011 7:34 pm ((PDT)) The standard way of aligning the compound to a known taper is to fix a Dial Test Indicator to the tool holder and run it across the taper to be copied. When the DTI reads a steady value, you are done. The problem I have with this approach is that it takes many adjustments before I zero in on alignment. This article proposes a small change in the procedure that lets me do the alignment in two steps. You just need to know how to calculate the arcsine of a ratio. Maybe you know it as the inverse sine. This article may appeal to those new to our hobby but it is a bit advanced. If you are interested, please see: http://rick.sparber.org/ct.pdf Your comments and questions are always welcome. All of us are smarter than any one of us. Rick ------- Re: new article available: Using A Taper To set the Compound on a La Posted by: "Bruce Freeman" freemab222x~xxgmail.com Date: Wed Jun 8, 2011 6:08 pm ((PDT)) arcsine x = the angle whose sine is x on calculators it usually shows up as "asin" or "aSin" or the two keystrokes "inv" + "sin". BTW, it may sound weird, but arcsine and arctangent are virtually the same number for very small values (say, <0.1). This follows from sine and tangent being virtually the same number for very small angles. A sketch of the corresponding triangle shows why: for a triangle with perpendicular legs x and y, and hypotenuse r, a small angle A (opposite leg y) will mean y is very small and x =~r, hence, sin(A)=y/r =~tan(A)=y/x. This comes in handy sometimes. ------- [atlas_craftsman] Re: updated version of article available: Using a Taper to set the C Posted by: "toolmaker48" toolmaker48x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Jun 11, 2011 4:43 pm ((PDT)) Hi Rick: What confuses me are the number of steps required to perform an otherwise simple set-up, and you still end up adjusting the compound and filing to fit. Even if you don't care for the trial and error method of indicating the taper, I figure there are at least 3 other ways to do it. A vernier protractor would be the most direct. I'll post a file in the file section with another way to do it. Robert ------- Re: updated version of article available: Using a Taper to set the C Posted by: "RG Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Sat Jun 11, 2011 5:03 pm ((PDT)) Robert: The way I was taught to set a compound for best accuracy was to run a DTI across the tapered surface until the needle didn't move. The article attempts to make this approach less cut and try. At least in my hands, a vernier protractor would not be as accurate. Besides, on my lathe, even if I knew the angle was, say, 20 degrees, I could not set the compound all that accurately. I would still need to run the DTI for the final adjustment. The main reason for filing was to improve the finish. I can see where that part of the article was not clear. I'm sure there are many more than 3 ways to do this task or any other in the shop. Which one you choose is often a function of personal preference, training, and instruments on hand. I would not want to judge which one is the best. Thanks for your insights, Rick ------- Re: updated version of article available: Using a Taper to set the C Posted by: "RG Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Sat Jun 11, 2011 5:25 pm ((PDT)) Robert: The more I thought about this procedure, the less I think it has value. Oh well, it is better to try and fail than to not try at all... Rick ------- Re: updated version of article available: Using a Taper to set the C Posted by: "toolmaker48" toolmaker48x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Jun 11, 2011 7:54 pm ((PDT)) Hi Rick, I hope I didn't come across as too harsh a critic. It certainly wasn't my intention to rain on your parade. Sometimes there just isn't an easy solution to a PIA job. :( Robert ------- Re: updated version of article available: Using a Taper to set the C Posted by: "Glenn N" sleykinx~xxcharter.net Date: Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:17 am ((PDT)) I think the value is on the lines of how stuff works. Knowing the relationships and seeing it drawn out is helpful in understanding how to get that alignment. I was confused by the first discussion until I got to the math and drawings at the end, then the first part made perfect sense. I find I pretty much do it this way without crunching the numbers and it usually takes at most 3 goes to be there. But just like the vise adjustments on a mill, if you don't understand the movements on paper first you can spend a long time getting it dialed in. Besides .. it gave you some practice with the ilustrations. They have come a long way :) Glenn ------- Re: updated version of article available: Using a Taper to set the C Posted by: "Rick Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:09 am ((PDT)) Glenn: The biggest challenge for me in this article was how to make the math palatable to people that hate math. A person does not need to know what "sine" means, only that they hit that button on their calculator when needed. Those that understand the math, would likely be confused by a method that caters to those that don't. I haven't received much comment on simply using the equation so don't know how close I came to clarity. Aligning a vise is certainly a good example of fiddling. I now use my single pass alignment method and it serves me well. Cut and try just drives me crazy. You are certainly right about practice with my CAD tools. It has been over a month since I used Alibre and I was already starting to lose it. For 2D, Alibre is unusable so I still use my old CAD program. But for 3D, it is truly magic. My first prototype iteration is often done with it. Rick Rick.Sparber.org ------- [atlas_craftsman] Re: new article available: Setting the Compound to Match a Taper, Ro Posted by: "n2irz" baysale976x~xxoptimum.net Date: Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:39 pm ((PDT)) "RG Sparber" wrote: > http://rick.sparber.org/nct.pdf > Comments and questions are always welcome. Good work Rick. Thank you. First, I would use drill rod and not an actual bit, I think it would be more accurate. Maybe. Second, I would not use my eyes to check for an air gap, rather take the loose compound and let it find its own place against the taper. (My eyes especially are not what they used to be.) I intend to follow this method, I will report back what kind of error I'm seeing. Don ------- Re: new article available: Setting the Compound to Match a Taper, Ro Posted by: "r_corriveau" r_corriveaux~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Jun 15, 2011 4:07 am ((PDT)) "RG Sparber" wrote: > This article deals with the alignment of a lathe's compound to a known taper without the use of math. It is based on an idea given to me by Neil Butterfield. Thanks Neil! If you are interested, please see http://rick.sparber.org/nct.pdf Hello Rick. The only thing I can see with your setup is the fact that the collet is empty. I figure the 0.001 difference is easily explained by different flex of the collet between pushing a 1-2-3 block up against it and using a DI. For the purpose of analysis, I would use a morse taper as a test piece, just because it is longer than 1 inch. I know I should just go and try it myself and share results, ... but my wife wants me to finish renovating a room..... (not allowed to play until I finish my 'homework' :) I commend you for studying these details and sharing the results with us, which improves us all. Robert Corriveau Quebec, Canada ------- Re: Cutting a Morse Taper shaft [atlas618lathe] Posted by: "Dallas" n5feex~xxnetzero.net Date: Tue Jun 7, 2011 2:02 am ((PDT)) "n2irz" wrote: > Is anyone aware of a method I can use to cut a #2 Morse Taper on a shaft without having the Atlas taper attachment? What I seek is either a method that doesn't require that (hard-to-find and expensive) attachment, OR an alternative source for a taper attachment that's reasonable in price, OR something like a reamer that'll make a rough-cut external taper perfect. I want to make a shaft that fits into the headstock of my 618. Thanks, Don N2IRZ < Don: The only method I know of for a long taper like the MT2 is to offset the tailstock and turn the item between centers. You can calculate the offset or I would look it up in a machinery handbook. They have tables of the different tapers and what the change in diameter should be for a given length. I don't know what you are making, but you can buy pre-made tapers really cheap at any tool supply. All kind of adapters are available to change from one taper to another. You could possibly buy one of these and modify it to suite your purposes. Look at any of the on-line tool suppliers and search around for MT adapters, tool holders, even surplus drill bits with a MT2 shank. I will bet you can find something cheap with a factory made taper you can modify for your use. If not you can offset your tailstock and cut your own. I have never cut a MT taper, but I have made some 5C collet holders that required I cut a very accurate and nice taper. I had to carefully grind and check my fit using a Prussian blue dye. If your object is to learn to cut the taper then go for it. If your object is to have a taper to make something else, try to buy a cheap pre-made taper. Dallas ------- Re: Cutting a Morse Taper shaft Posted by: "anthrhodesx~xxaol.com" anthrhodesx~xxaol.com Date: Tue Jun 7, 2011 7:10 am ((PDT)) Don: There are two classic ways of cutting tapers without a taper attachment, setting the compound to the appropriate angle and setting the tailstock over to generate the half angle. For a #2 MT the compound probably doesn't have enough travel although it can be done by very carefully taking separate passes for each end, admittedly not easy. For offsetting the tailstock, if you offset away from the operator the small end of the taper will be towards the headstock, offsetting towards the operator will put the small end of the taper towards the tailstock. As an alternative to offsetting the tailstock, many people prefer to use a boring head in the tailstock and using it for the offset instead of having to re-center the tailstock after cutting the taper. Use of either the compound or tailstock method may require some fiddling to get the angle just so, practice makes perfect. Anthony Berkeley, Calif. ------- Re: Cutting a Morse Taper shaft Posted by: "Rob Chapman" chapman49682x~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Jun 7, 2011 9:58 am ((PDT)) "TL/2" is all you need. It's the formula for offsetting your tailstock so you can cut the taper without a taper attachment. Refer to http://team358.org/files/mechanical/HowToUseALathe.pdf beginning on page 71. You'll need to countersink both ends of your piece, and drive the piece with a lathe dog and faceplate (those are also explained earlier in the document). Rob Chapman ------- Re: Cutting a Morse Taper shaft Posted by: "n2irz" donrotolox~xxoptimum.net Date: Tue Jun 7, 2011 9:59 am ((PDT)) OK, that makes sense. I'm trying to make a few MT2 arbors for my MFC mill, and accuracy is probably important. I hesitate to use a drill bit or similar becasue they are hardened, but if I can find a machinable taper I can make it work. But being a cheapskate (I AM a ham, after all...) I'll try offsetting the tailstock and see how close I can get. I saw a method that uses the compound, but I wonder if I can set the angle to to 1 degree 26 minutes precisel or not... Thanks, Don ------- Re: Cutting a Morse Taper shaft Posted by: "Dallas" n5feex~xxnetzero.net Date: Wed Jun 8, 2011 5:15 am ((PDT)) Don: Like others have mentioned, setting your compound at the desired angle is very straight forward and intutitive. I did not mention this method because the 618 compound does not have enough travel to cut the full length of a MT2 taper shank. Adjusting the compound also does not give you any power feed for making the cut. As to setting the compound angle accurately, I have calibrated surveying instruments for years and nothing beats a long distance for setting angle accuracy. It is very easy and cheap to use an inexpensive laser to set your compound (or any other angle) as accurately as you would like. You will soon start seeing lost motion and machine deflection when you use a laser to amplifly your measurement. Attaching a laser pointer to your compound and shining it across the room to a surface say 30 feet away will make a 1 degree compound movement deflect the dot or laser line 5-1/4 inches. You will see things change as you tighten screws. You can use this same technique to see the angle you are creating when you offset your tail stock as well. I would offset the tail stock and start cutting. Cut it between centers as mentioned. Use a live center tail stock point if you have one. Get a new #3 to #2 Morse Taper adapter and a tube of prussian blue to easily fit- check your progress. Having the unit between centers will allow you to remove it, check it and re-install to exactly the same cutting position. The live center will keep the tail hole from binding and galling up and allows for zero play. There are also methods to make lapping jigs to get it dead on if you like. Dallas ------- Re: Cutting a Morse Taper shaft Posted by: "n2irz" donrotolox~xxoptimum.net Date: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:22 am ((PDT)) Well Dallas, I did not mention that I also have a 10" Atlas which does have the compound travel. I first need to get some decent tool steel (McMaster, here I come!) and design a short arbor for my MFC mill, then I'll play around and see - using prussian blue - how close I can come to any of the three MT2 holes I have (618 and MFC headstock, 10F tailstock). In any case, worth learning how to. Thanks! ------- Re: Cutting a Morse Taper shaft Posted by: "EdwinB" n5kzwx~xxarrl.net Date: Thu Jun 9, 2011 8:47 am ((PDT)) Dallas, I think that ball-ended tailstock centers are recommended for offset turning. Here's a DIY design for an offset turning adapter: http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=21019 You can see the ball ended headstock center. The simplest center would be short lengths of push rod ends held in chucks at the headstock and tailstock with lots of grease. Regards, Ed ------- Re: Cutting a Morse Taper shaft Posted by: "Dallas" n5feex~xxnetzero.net Date: Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:24 am ((PDT)) Ed: That is an interesting idea. I have never used a boring head on my 618's because the boring head takes up so much of the of the short bed length. This guy's offsetting device does not use up much space. I have never thought moving the tailstock over and re-setting it to the center line was too much of an issue, so I don't mind moving mine around. I have seen the spherical centers but have never tried it. I have never taken the time to make any spherical centers. Do you also use a matching sherical end mill or something to cut a close tolerance hole for the spud to fit in, or just let it ride up on the edges made by a standard drill bit? I have used ball bearings to ride against a drilled hole on some antique fans I have restored and after lots of oscillations, the unhardended spots where the bearings rub tend to wear quite a bit. When making more than a single tapered piece, getting two blanks exactly the same length with center holes drilled exactly the same depth seem to be the biggest variables for me. All of those factors affect the offset, of course. ------- Re: Cutting a Morse Taper shaft Posted by: "EdwinB" n5kzwx~xxarrl.net Date: Sat Jun 11, 2011 9:10 am ((PDT)) Dallas, the spherical center is intended to be used in a hole created by a center drill. The ball bearing technique is equivalent, and may be easier as you don't have to make/buy a spherical center. I would expect the wear to be similar between a spherical center and an offset regular center as the latter would only be bearing on one side of the point and on a small area of the taper at the end of the part. Regards, Ed ------- Re: Cutting a Morse Taper shaft Posted by: "lfcoebay" crvtfanx~xxcomcast.net Date: Sat Jun 11, 2011 8:16 am ((PDT)) "n2irz" wrote: > OK, that makes sense. I'm trying to make a few MT2 arbors for my MFC mill, and accuracy is probably important. I hesitate to use a drill bit or similar because they are hardened, but if I can find a machinable taper I can make it work. But being a cheapskate (I AM a ham, after all...) I'll try offsetting the tail-stock and see how close I can get. < I cut the drill ends from the tapers all the time. The tapered end is not hardened, at least not on any I have found. If the head stock has an identical taper to the tail stock just cut the drill off and insert it into the head stock and drill and bore for exactly on center holes for whatever is needed. Rick ------- Re: Cutting a Morse Taper shaft Posted by: "azbruno" azbrunox~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:44 pm ((PDT)) Check with Victor Machinery. For example, here's an MT2 arbor with a machinable end... http://www.victornet.com/cgi-bin/victor/alphabetic/Arbors-Mor se-Taper-to-Blank-End/1370.html Bruno ------- Re: Boring head for turning tapers [atlas618lathe] Posted by: "Starlight Tool Services Ltd" starlight_toolsx~xxtelus.net Date: Thu Sep 1, 2011 2:49 pm ((PDT)) It is moderately common practice to mount a boring head in the tailstock, mount a centre in the boring head and use it to turn tapers that are longer than the compound slide will give you. Sometimes this is easier than trying to set up the taper attachment, if you have one, and saves having to dial in your tailstock after you are done. Besides tailstock has limited travel, and boring head usually has more. Here is a link to a commercially made device that does the same job, only it is MT3 so a bit large www.kbctools.com see page 509 of catalogue, bottom Right corner of page. You can even make up your own with a bit of machining. Based on your lathe size, you will need to use a small boring head and you will probably have to make up the 7/8-20 to MT1 adapter to mount it. as MT2 seems to be the smallest listed in any of my catalogues. Walter ------- Re: Boring head for turning tapers Posted by: "EdwinB" n5kzwx~xxarrl.net Date: Fri Sep 2, 2011 9:39 am ((PDT)) Another advantage is that you can use the scale on the boring head to dial in the exact offset. If the boring head has provisions for mounting a boring bar at right angles to the MT axis, a rod can be slipped through it and, coupled with a machinists jack, can be used to prevent rotation and set the offset exactly parallel to the lathe ways. Regards, Ed ------- Re: Boring head for turning tapers Posted by: "Michael" toabetterworldx~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Sep 2, 2011 9:22 am ((PDT)) Thanks for all the responses! As some people have said I am trying to use the boring head to hold a center (live or dead) and use that instead of offsetting the tailstock. What I have is an accurate tapered hole, and a less than accurate taper to fit in the hole. I want to turn the outside of the existing taper to true it up and make it fit more precisely. If you have googled cello endpins, you probably saw the long metal or carbon fiber endpin rod. It would be more exact to call what I want to turn the endpin housing, the part with the screw that holds the endpin at a given length. The housing is not very long, maximum 4", so after I remove the actual endpin rod then the length is not an issue. I found someone who sells micro boring heads online, they are based in the UK, and one of their models has an MT1 taper, so maybe my problem is solved. I will call tomorrow when the time difference is right. I am a total novice at turning on a metal lathe, so it never occurred to me that you could cut a taper with the compound slide. How would that work? I can imagine cutting stair steps, over then in, then over. Thanks, Michael ------- Re: Boring head for turning tapers Posted by: "Dallas" n5feex~xxnetzero.net Date: Fri Sep 2, 2011 12:56 pm ((PDT)) Michael, I happened to be boring the tapered hole in a ER-32 collet fixture I am making for my 618 last night. I measured the compound travel and it is about 1.5 inches. If your pins are more that this length, using the compound would require more than one set-up and not be recommended. To answer your question; the compound cross slide is the smaller knob you twist to make the tool move. The compound is usually set tilted to the right hand side about 30 degrees. This is the spot I leave mine because this is where you want it when you cut threads on the lathe. You can see a drawing of this setup cutting a taper for another brand lathe here: http://www.sherline.com/1270inst.htm Look in the files section of this group for pdf file of the manual for your lathe named Full_Manual2.pdf. To cut the taper with the compound, you: 1. Lock the saddle to prevent left or right movement. (Lock with item 39 on page 5 of the manual.) 2. Set the compound to the desired taper angle. See graduated degree markings on item 21 on page 4 of the manual. (Adjustment is done by loosening two allen head screws below the compound axis items 22 on page 4.) 3. Cut your taper by only advancing the compound adjustment handle. (Item 28 on page 4.) The tool will travel towards the headstock, and towards the workpiece at the same time, making the tapered cut. Dallas ------- Re: Boring head for turning tapers Posted by: "n2irz" donrotolox~xxoptimum.net Date: Sun Sep 4, 2011 9:25 am ((PDT)) As others have explained, you can use the compound to set a precise angle, but the range of motion is about 1.5" on a 618. Your pins seem longer than that. Your idea to offset the tailstock using a boring head is also good. Just be sure the tailstock center has a ball end to accommodate the offset. As I mentioend before, resetting the offset tailstock is not at all difficult, you can do it in under 2 minutes on a 618. To cut tapers on a metal lathe, there is a Taper Attachment. You can surely make one (they are not that complex) or buy an original one (Thieves on eBay want a small fortune for them) or get a modern one for a reasonable price. Go on eBay, look at some listings for an Atlas Taper Attachment, get an idea of what it does and how it works. In brief, instead of using the crossfeed screw to move the tool in and out, the taper attachment has a 'rail' to guide the crossfeed as you move the carriage towards the headstock. The (adjustable) 'rail' is clamped to the rear Way, and a slider rides on the rail. I have used all three methods to cut tapers, and they each have their advantages and disadvantages. In a production shop, the taper attachment is what is normally used when you need to do it often. Oh yes, as Dean wrote already: In atlas618lathex~xxyahoogroups.com, "Dean" wrote: > Ask all the questions you want, and good luck! ------- Turning female Jacobs #1 taper, or not [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "afodell" a_odelldvmx~xxhotmail.com Date: Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:28 am ((PST)) I am presented with a problem where I want to mount a chuck with a 0.500" square female mount to a 3/8" spindle with a #1 Jacobs taper (pretty small taper.) I have 2 options: put a 3/8-24 (or 16) thread on the male tapered shaft which does not allow more than about 0.250" of good threads due to the taper already in place, or try to make an adapter #1 Jacobs to 1/2" square. The chuck will be used on a Telco tapper which has a 1/2" tap capacity. Is 3/8" inch threaded shaft robust enough to turn a 1/2" tap in mild steel up to 1" thick, and if it is not, what chance does a garage machinist (with an A-C 12" lathe) have to accurately bore a #1 female Jacobs taper in 1/2" cold rolled square stock? I know there are a lot of variables here, but I would appreciate your views, maybe somebody will come up with a solution I have not thought of. BTW: Jacobs taper reamers are unavailable as far as I can determine. Thanks, Chip! ------- Re: Turning female Jacobs #1 taper, or not Posted by: "James Bishop" bishopajx~xxgmail.com Date: Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:05 pm ((PST)) I think making the taper is doable. If it were me, I would give it a go, but then I like a challenge :-) I must say that I have never seen a square mount chuck... anyway here goes: You can make your own taper reamer fairly easily - a D-bit reamer. If you google D bit reamer you'll get some info. Basically you want to turn an identical taper on a piece of drill rod or high carbon steel, make sure to get a good finish on the taper, and then mill or file it in half, harden, temper if you like (I usually don't bother). To turn the taper accurately, set the lathe compound angle using an indicator in the toolpost. If possible mount the existing shaft between centres and set the angle against the existing taper, try to get it dead on (make sure the indicator is horizontal and exactly at lathe center height). Otherwise, you can measure against a straight ground rod held in a chuck or collet (must be parallel to bed). Check the dimensions for the taper, see below, and travel the compound slide back and forth over the length of the taper noting the indicator reading and match it to the specified dimensions. Note that the 'taper length' in the web page below would be along the axis of the shaft. The length along the taper (distance to move the compound) is slightly longer. A bit of pythagoras will help to calculate that. Taper dimensions: http://www.tools-n-gizmos.com/specs/Tapers.html#JT If possible test your turned taper against a matching female taper with a bit of 'blueing' compound to see if it fits nicely. I find when I turn tapers that the small end is often bigger than it should be, I guess because of tool deflection. Make several clean up passes with a sharp finishing tool. To make the female taper in the square rod, mount it in the 4-jaw and center it accurately, drill, and ream. Another option might be to fit the square rod in the chuck, then put some round rod in the lathe collet/ chuck and grip this with the drill chuck. If it seems rigid enough you could drill and ream from here. This is probably not a great idea but it may improve concentricity (may make it worse too!). You could also skip making the reamer and just use the compound set at the correct angle to bore the taper. I do this for larger tapers and it's fine for my purposes, but for this small one I think you want a really good finish and good contact between the mating parts, which the reamer should give you. Hope that gives you some ideas... James ------- Re: Turning female Jacobs #1 taper, or not Posted by: "L. Garlinghouse" lhghousex~xxsuddenlink.net Date: Thu Mar 1, 2012 6:44 am ((PST)) Sorry, but my pc setup drops the message I'm trying to reply to. RE: Tapers -- to turn or not to turn . . . Technically it is doable, but my recent/current experience is that there is a lot more "art" than technology involved. My current project is making everything to allow me to run the AT collets from my horiz mill in my TH42 10" lathe. All done, but I did the Prussian blue test and found that my taper adapter was not close to contacting even 50% of the area it should be. The devil is in the detail of setting the compound at the correct angle to cut a short taper at the correct angle. Obviously the precise angle specification is easy to come by, but the graduations on the compound are useless along with less than optimum lighting and my less than optimum geezer eyes. So my next step was to sweep the spindle taper horizontally with my dial indicator and adjust the compound until I got zip for a reading. Did not work. If you are not bang-on the center line, you are going to get deviations that make this whole set-up meaningless. Soooo . . . I put a dead tailstock center between centers* and then I tightened down my QCTP and using the flat side of the QCTP as an indicating surface (compound adjusted as closely as possible to the correct angle) and using a business card as a feeler gage, adjusted the gap between the QCTP and the TS center. My theory is that my "mechanic's feel" is going to be plenty accurate, and the flat side of the QCTP is going to remove the above/below centerline inaccuracies. Only remaining problem is getting my cutting tool on my boring bar bang on center, but that is a reasonable possibility. As I said before, this was not completely succesful, but the problem may have been a slight misalignment on the tailstock end. If I was on someone else's clock and budget, I would just sacrifice a taper and use valve grinding compound to lap my cut taper in the collar into submission, but that is not the case. I may actually have to revisit Rick Sparber's white paper on precisely setting tapers -- but I'm putting that off for now. Next step is assess the tailstock alignment and reset compound and take a light cut and re-assess with Prussian blue. L8r, L.H. Arkansas USA *I turned a point on a piece of stock in the chuck for the center on the headstock end which engaged the center c'sk on the small end of the taper piece and then merely stabbed [Arkansas "hill talk" for "inserting"] the large end into the TS quill. ------- Re: Turning female Jacobs #1 taper, or not Posted by: "Guenther Paul" paulguenterx~xxatt.net Date: Thu Mar 1, 2012 7:20 am ((PST)) If you have a taper attachment it could be set up and it will go easy for you. GP ------- Re: Turning female Jacobs #1 taper, or not Posted by: "dws" dwshelfx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Mar 1, 2012 8:20 am ((PST)) It seems unlikely you're going to turn a 1/2" tap 1" into steel with a JT1 coupling. Or even a 1/4" tap 1/2" deep. It will slip loose. To turn a 1/2" square tapper drive, you need a cut off 1/2" socket extension held by a collet. Some 1/2" drill chucks can turn it, but most will slip. A good 3/4" drill chuck will probably be ok. dw ------- Re: Turning female Jacobs #1 taper, or not ADDENDUM Posted by: "afodell" a_odelldvmx~xxhotmail.com Date: Thu Mar 1, 2012 7:20 am ((PST)) Thanks for the replies, you have pretty much come to the same conclusion that I have: doable, but a PITA to get it right especially with the only USA made tool, in my shop, being my (non-dro) A-C lathe. One approach that I considered was to buy a chuck body with the internal JT1 already in place and then grind the outside down to 1/2" square. I could not find the necessary parts anywhere, but maybe somebody out there has a junk chuck that they would be willing to part with for minimal cost. I guess I could just buy a sacrificial import chuck, and that might be the best bet. The 1/2" part of the adapter is not that critical, a good eyeball would be close enough. Again, thanks for the input, Chip ------- Re: Turning female Jacobs #1 taper, or not ADDENDUM Posted by: "Glenn N" sleykinx~xxcharter.net Date: Thu Mar 1, 2012 12:25 pm ((PST)) I am not following this well. Do you have a chuck with a square hole in it that you want to mount to, or do you need a chuck with a 1/2" square hole in it? I have 2 chucks from Enco that have 1/2" square holes for mounting on a 1/2" ratchet for running taps...Got a picture? ------- Re: Taper attachment for a 618 Atlas [atlas618lathe] Posted by: "pdjohnson07" pdjohnson07x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:20 pm ((PDT)) "flyoldplanes" wrote: > My first post so I'll do an intro. My name is Eric & I'm in SW Michigan > west of Kalamazoo. I have a few lathes but enjoy my 618 the most. > I'm looking for plans, drawings, etc for a taper attachment Hello Eric. Making a taper attachment for an Atlas 618 is not all that complicated. There is a guy on YouTube that posts a large number of very useful videos on machining and he has a video of his homemade taper attachment. His YouTube username is mrpete222 and he goes by Tubalcain. He discusses how he made it in the video below and he demonstrates making one of the parts in another video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTSmyurlDus&feature=relmfu Also, the atlas_craftsman yahoo group has a set of plans that someone uploaded under the "Shop-made taper attachment 08" folder. I believe the plans are for a larger lathe but I like the idea of attaching it the way it is done in those plans. Instead of clamping it just on the edge of the bed ways, it has a piece that goes across the top of the ways and clamps on just like a steady rest or the tailstock for that matter. In any case, when you make a taper attachment, it is not all that complicated. You need to connect it to the lathe around the head stock and also at the tailstock end. You'll have a bar between the two connections and one end swivels and the other end slides. You'll need a slider for the bar and a connection to the carriage cross slide. Making the degree marks isn't complicated but it is tedious. If you want to make very exact tapers, then you won't be using degree marks anyway. Phil ------- MT3 Cleanup [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Jean-Francois" jfcayronx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Feb 3, 2013 8:15 pm ((PST)) Probably going to get a "duh" answer, but I'd better be safe than sorry. My spindle has an MT3 taper. The spindle itself runs VERY true, but when I put in my MT3 dead center, I see anywhere between .004 and .010 runout. I can feel small nicks inside the taper, enough to explain the problem. Here is the question: How do I fix it? My first thought is to run a MT3 reamer (finishing). But is it a recommended way, is it the only way etc? ------- Re: MT3 Cleanup Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com Date: Sun Feb 3, 2013 8:29 pm ((PST)) That's what I would do. By hand (with a T-handle tap wrench). I very definitely would NOT try to set the compound around and run a boring bar in there. ------- Re: MT3 Cleanup Posted by: "(no author)" (no email address) Date: Sun Feb 3, 2013 9:19 pm ((PST)) JF, A hand held MT3 finishing reamer would work, but might just be worth your while to move the carriage out of the way, and get your head down with a strong torch and see what the nicks look like -- if minor they might respond to a penknife or other small scraper. Regards, Carvel ------- Re: MT3 Cleanup Posted by: "Richard Marchi" rfmarchix~xxaol.com Date: Mon Feb 4, 2013 12:55 pm ((PST)) I've used Carvel's technique. It helps if you rub a thin coat of Prussian blue on the dead center's taper and insert it into the spindle taper and rotate it a few degrees. The nicks on the spindle should rub off the blueing and show you where they are. If you get lucky, you'll be able to see the blue transferred from the center to the spindle with a strong light. Then use a scraper or a small fine round India slip stone to touch them up. When they're all gone, the blueing on the dead center will transfer evenly to the spindle taper. Don't overlook the possibility that the ding is on the dead center either. Good luck. ------- Re: MT3 Cleanup Posted by: "John Bates" reproturnx~xxbigpond.com Date: Sun Feb 3, 2013 11:42 pm ((PST)) What about the accuracy of the dead centre - is it up to snuff? Cheers John B Sydney, Australia ------- Re: MT3 Cleanup Posted by: jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Mon Feb 4, 2013 5:21 am ((PST)) One problem with most sorts of "symmetrical cutters" like reamers is that they push on both the bump and the good side... and when they push, they cut. So you inevitably cut a little on the side you do NOT want to remove material from, as well as the side where the problem is. You really need a "one flute" reamer (they don't exist as far as I know) to do that job safely. But Carvel's suggestion solves the problem. JT ------- Re: MT3 Cleanup Posted by: "Guenther Paul" paulguenterx~xxatt.net Date: Mon Feb 4, 2013 5:30 am ((PST)) JT What about a hand adjustable reamer, the flutes are on a taper, the end of the flute is the size one needs. They are excellent on through holes but don't work on dead end holes. On dead end holes there are 1000's of ways to create an accurate bore or holes. GP ------- Re: MT3 Cleanup Posted by: jmartin957x~xxaol.com Date: Mon Feb 4, 2013 8:14 am ((PST)) The nicks are not a problem -- it's the raised burr alongside the nick. The metal displaced by the nick had to go someplace. The culprit is just as often a chip which got wedged against the bore. They can look like a piece of the spindle itself, and can be hard to remove. My first choice is to try to smooth things out with a scraper -- say, a three-cornered machinist's scraper. The finishing reamer is good for a final cleanup, but save it for that. It doesn't take too many turns to open up the taper so that tooling with a shoulder will bottom out (should say shoulder out). Let the reamer align itself in the bore -- don't try to hold it on the tailstock center. You could hold it on the center if the tailstock was perfectly aligned, but it's likely not. Pretty tough to align it without a true running headstock center, which you don't have. Go gently, the reamer will find its own way. It's not a bad idea to turn the spindle rather than the reamer -- just pull the belt over by hand a couple of turns. Clean up your center after you do the taper. The old pros would keep their centers hidden away, and would put index marks on the spindle and center if they were fussy. John Martin ------- Re: MT3 Cleanup Posted by: "James Irwin" jirwin1x~xxaustin.rr.com Date: Mon Feb 4, 2013 8:55 am ((PST)) Correct me if Iım wrong, but isnıt the tapered shaft of the tool usually hardened? Isnıt the spindle usually soft? So if one would lightly oil with way oil and drive in the tool, the tool would flatten toe tops of these raised edges, at least somewhat. THEN one would have less to remove with a scraper or stone or whatever. Of course, itıs way better to avoid raising these surface defects using care to wipe clean tools and bore before seating. But, itıs not a matter of if a ding occur, but when they occur, AND having a way to repair the damage efficiently and effectively w/o making things worse. Jim Irwin ------- Re: MT3 Cleanup Posted by: "Charles" xlch58x~xxswbell.net Date: Mon Feb 4, 2013 8:57 am ((PST)) The easiest to make shop reamer is a D bit, and properly used they will not cut on the good area, just the raised area. Charles ------- Re: MT3 Cleanup Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Mon Feb 4, 2013 10:47 am ((PST)) > The spindle itself runs VERY true, but when I put in my MT3 dead > center, I see anywhere between .004 and .010 runout. > I can feel small nicks inside the taper, enough to explain the problem. With a good light, examine for the burrs, you can apply magic marker or blue dye to the center to mark the burrs. Then, you can use an Xacto knife or a round India stone to remove the burr. Also, you can recut the center, which may not be as true as you might want. Jon ------- Re: MT3 Cleanup Posted by: "jonathan h bateman" jhblagx~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Feb 4, 2013 10:50 am ((PST)) Do you have a good "feel" for finishes, etc.? If so,get a fresh 3/8" chain saw file, reach into the spindle taper, find a nick with the end of the file (actually a high spot}, turn the spindle so the 'offense is at the bottom. Locate the spot again with the body of the file, and delicately "balance" it only on the high spot; lightly file very gently until the high spot is relieved. Now feel around inside and correct as necessary. Finally, glue some #400 paper to your center; twist it gently in the spindle. If you know the center is perfect, try a little bluing. This is advanced machine work; a man can do what a machine can't. Good luck! BLJHB ------- Re: MT3 Cleanup Posted by: "James Irwin" jirwin1x~xxaustin.rr.com Date: Mon Feb 4, 2013 10:54 am ((PST)) A half round fine finish file thatıs half worn out and whose radius is at or slightly under that of the bore will do much finer work here. Oil it with some medium weight oil, like way oil. A new chainsaw file will aggressively bite into the bore. Not on my lathe! Jim Irwin ------- NOTE TO FILE: For removing a raised burr on a flat surface, a relatively safe method has been to take an old flat file and uniformly grind off the tips of the file's teeth so that the tip has a flat. Then when this file is applied to the flat surface, it will slide over the good flat parts and only take off the burrs. A similar treatment in dulling and rounding the teeth tips on a round file (under but near the radius of the bore, as Jim Irwin recommends) should work similarly. ------- Re: MT3 Cleanup Posted by: "jworman" jwormanx~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Feb 4, 2013 10:59 am ((PST)) I can't say about the recommended way, nor the only way, but it's the way I did it and it worked great. I also bought a plastic reamer called a "Taper Mate" and I run it through the taper before inserting a tool. ------- Re: MT3 Cleanup Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Mon Feb 4, 2013 2:14 pm ((PST)) a bearing scraper is the preferred tool for cleaning up raised places. very common in solid bearing era, before anti friction bearings, (ending around middle 1920's)...you can make a useful one from the end of a 1/2 round file.....grind the teeth off, w/ a curve on the end to keep from digging in, & grind one edge w/ clearance & rake ...use a paring motion. FWIW china flat scrapers & curved bearing scrapers are available for a few dollars each...cant remember which supplier, but i have seen them advertised in last couple years. as previously posted, reamers are a poor choice since they WILL remove stock from the opposing surface ..& it is EASY to ream enuf so that the taper is too deep ...BEEN there cleaning up a ringed MT3 - MT2 adapter. best wishes doc ------- Re: MT3 Cleanup Posted by: jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net jtiers Date: Mon Feb 4, 2013 6:22 pm ((PST)) Go a step farther and make your own... it's a variety of the "burr file" that I like to advocate. You BLUNT a piece of half-round file with a sharpening stone, carefully to keep a good round "surface". Now, just like the flat version, it will ONLY cut what sticks up. No sharp new files allowed in tapers around here either. Nor honing stones; they are not very selective on what they cut, and they leave grit. Yes, the gun drill is a one-flute *drill*, a one-flute *reamer* would be a bit like a one-flute countersink.... with the edge on the side and not the front. While not as nice/safe as the half round burr file, it at least would not cut on the other side of the taper. JT ------- Re: MT3 Cleanup Posted by: CaptonZapx~xxaol.com Date: Tue Feb 5, 2013 6:21 am ((PST)) Did I miss anyone advising to measure the inside of the taper about an eighth of an inch back from the outside edge with a dial indicator? If someone has dinged the edge of the shaft hard enough to flatten one spot, you could end up with the same situation. CZ ------- Re: MT3 Cleanup Posted by: "Jean-Francois" jfcayronx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:47 am ((PST)) Thank you all for the good advice received. I started by blueing the taper to locate the highs. I scraped the spots that were all in the first 3/4" or so. Also the first 1/8" of the taper was really messed up, so I ran a boring bar and sacrificed that part of it by boring it up one thou. Note, that reduces the fitted surface, but does not change the seating depth. Outcome: less than half a graduation on the TDI, I believe about 2 10-thousands; I call it perfect. One more time, thank you all for your help. ------- Ml7 top slide question [myfordlathes] Posted by: "paulcorryx~xxrocketmail.com" paulcorryx~xxrocketmail.com Date: Sun Jun 30, 2013 4:17 pm ((PDT)) Hi guys, I'm fairly new to this group and really enjoy reading all posts -- so much to learn from so much experience, it's ace. But now I have a question! I have recently converted my cross slide to metric, being of the metric generation( new thread and a nice new re- settable dial) and I am fully intending doing the same to my top slide( both the crosslide and top slide original threads are a bit worn so I thought I'd change 'em): but my question relates to the top slide travel. I am using my ml7 for making bespoke handmade saxophone mouthpieces and I would love to have a bit more travel on my top slide; for example cutting a taper for a baritone sax mouthpiece is longer than my travel will allow, so I do it in 2 halves. Can I simply get a longer thread for my top slide, will that give me any more? Could I use one for a metric super7, for example? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Ta Paul Corry ------- Re: Ml7 top slide question Posted by: "David Littlewood" davidx~xxdlittlewood.co.uk Date: Mon Jul 1, 2013 2:06 am ((PDT)) I find turning tapers with the topslide is rather clunky; it's difficult to get a perfect finish, and the travel is, as you found, too small. You can't even do a complete 2MT taper. I made one of these: http://www.hemingwaykits.com/acatalog/Taper_Turning_Attachment.html Well actually mine is the Mk 1 version, but its operation is just the same. It's a kit, not a finished product, but it's not difficult to make and it's much cheaper than the original Myford attachment, if you can even find one now. It allows you to make tapers of any length you are likely to need, and equally important you can turn them under power feed, and thus get an excellent finish. The screw adjustment of the taper is far more precise than tapping the topslide round. David Littlewood ------- Re: Ml7 top slide question Posted by: "Alan Moore" a.j.moorex~xxbtinternet.com Date: Mon Jul 1, 2013 4:09 am ((PDT)) You can also use the Hemingway set over tailstock centre (http://www.hemingwaykits.com/acatalog/Set_over_Centre.html). Not as accurate as the taper turning unit, but a fraction of the price. Regards, Alan ------- Re: Ml7 top slide question Posted by: "jackofalltrades.masterofnone" red-rosex~xxgreenview.fslife.co.uk Date: Mon Jul 1, 2013 11:36 am ((PDT)) Hi guys, To turn tapers I use an indexible boring head from your usual supplier (I got mine from Chronos some time ago) along with a revolving centre that mounts in the head. Mount the boring head in the tailstock and set your offset. Turn your job between centres but ensure that your centre holes are drilled correctly to support the job (that is a variable, depending on how much of a taper you need to cut - Morse is ok with just a deep drilling. I have turned accurate 1MTs and 2MTs by copying a centre held between centres and trued with a DTI to straight by winding the index. The topslide just does not give anough travel. My mate was going to offset his tailstock but there is hassle lining it up again. You can guess where my boring head is now... Andy ------- Taper turning Posted by: "Francis Boyle" francis.boylex~xxgooglemail.com Date: Mon Jul 1, 2013 12:56 pm ((PDT)) Hi Paul, Have you considered a taper turning attachment? A Myford one would give you 9". I made mine using a large piece of angle iron with 20" of flat plate 3" X .5" bolted onto the angle which has holes for two bolts at the ends. A further piece of plate the same section 18" long with two radial slots to fit the bolts pivoted in the centre, on top of this a bar 16" X 1" bolted in the centre of the top plate. I then bored a block of steel 3" X 2" and high enough to be level with the cross slide, the bore to be a tight sliding fit on the bar. I then made the connecting plate out of the .5" plate. This attachment gives me a taper of 15" if required. This was worth the effort. Regards Francis ------- Re: Taper turning Posted by: "David Everett" deverett2003x~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Tue Jul 2, 2013 1:38 am ((PDT)) Another design for a simple taper turning attachment, similar to that described by Francis, is by Chris Heapy. Have a look at http://www.astronomiainumbria.org/advanced_internet_files/meccanica/easy web.easynet.co.uk/_chrish/tt-notes.htm There are also several other useful attachments for Myford lathes described with drawings and pictures. Dave The Emerald Isle ------- Re: taper turning- thanks! Posted by: "paulcorryx~xxrocketmail.com" paulcorryx~xxrocketmail.com Date: Thu Jul 4, 2013 12:51 am ((PDT)) Just like to thank everyone for their ace advice( as usual!) Looks like I'll be looking into a taper turning attachment! Thanks guys ! Paul Corry ------- Re: Help with a taper attachment [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "rogers92026" brogers9941x~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:21 am ((PDT)) > OK, I've looked at taper attachments ... I'm wanting to make MT-0 > accessories for my Craftsman 109 on my 12" craftsman I have made some very nice MT-0 accessories on my 12x36 Atlas. The MT-0 is short enough that you can just use your compound. You don't need a taper attachment or anything else fancy. Just your lathe. The MT-0 is only about 2" long. So if you set it up correctly, you can advance the entire length of it using the compound. When I last turn an MT-0, I temporarily chucked up an existing MT-0 in my chuck and supported the right side (end) with a center. Then I adjusted the angle of my compound to exactly match the existing MT-0. It took a few minutes to eventually get it perfectly lined up using a bright light from underneath. I eventually got to the point that I could maintain a roughly 1 or 2 thou space between my tool and the existing MT-0 as I went from one end to the other end. Make sure that you lock down your saddle. Alternatively, I could have mounted a dial indicator in my tool post. (You can just about forget about using the scale on the compound though -- you are trying to set the compound to about 1.4908 degrees. The smallest divisions that I can just barely see are in 1 degree steps -- much too coarse to be of much help.) Then I removed the existing "pattern" and put in my part. Also, while you could probably cut the taper w/o a live center in your tailstock, it helps to keep everything lined up and supported. Much less chance that the part will shift in your chuck. When I was done machining, I "colored" the machine surface with a wide "Sharpie" pen and checked the part in a Female MT. I was pleasantly surprised that it made very good and uniform contact. Almost like I knew what I was doing (ha ha). If you need to make a larger taper, then you either do it in segments or you offset your tailstock center and use a drive dog. This is covered in the Atlas handbook I believe. Alternatively, I suppose that a person could make a larger taper but just limit the length to the compound feed (which is roughly 2.5 inches?) Bruce ------- Re: Help with a taper attachment Posted by: "Dr.jinG" dr.jingx~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:28 am ((PDT)) "dhlh1984" wrote: > OK, I've looked at taper attachments and even plans on how to make my own. What I am looking for is some directions on how to use one. I "ASSUME' its use is all manual. No power feed, but how do you keep from cutting a series of notches down the taper. Is it something you just have to play with to get the feel. Does anyone have a copy of instructions on the setup and use of a taper attachment. I'm wanting to make MT-0 accessories for my Craftsman 109 on my 12" craftsman < Tubalcain has a couple of videos discussing cutting tapers, and his third method mentioned is a taper attachment. Though he created his own, I'm sure that the principles are the same. Check it out the first video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTSmyurlDus jon ------- taper attachment photo [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: snookjr70546x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:30 pm ((PDT)) Hey guys and girls does anyone have a photo of how the taper attachment hooks to the cross slide, just got a 12" Atlas Craftsman with tons of tools stripping it down for cleaning and painting wanted to get a test run on how to hook it up, got it on the bed rails but understand how it hooks to the cross slide. thanks in advance, Joe G. ------- Re: taper attachment photo Posted by: gregx~xxgelhar.com greg.gelhar Date: Sat Mar 15, 2014 5:08 pm ((PDT)) Here is a picture. You must remove the crossfeed leadscrew nut to mount and use the taper attachment. http://www.mymachineshop.net/product_p/10061.htm Greg G. Osseo, MN ------- Re: taper attachment photo Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com Date: Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:58 pm ((PDT)) Joe, Instruction sheets for Atlas No. 700, 760 and 6822 are in the Group's Files section. Look in Lathe Accessories. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: taper attachment photo Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Sun Mar 16, 2014 9:03 am ((PDT)) You're welcome. But it isn't actually "my" page. I just take care of them for the Group. As far as being a pain to use, setting it up is pretty straightforward. As is converting back to normal straight turning. Turning a taper is usually not a common requirement. But I know of only two other ways to do it on a manual lathe. (1) rotating the compound around almost parallel to the spindle axis and using the compound feed to traverse the cutter instead of the manual or power carriage drive. Limited to the rather short compound travel and more labor intensive but probably the method of choice for one-off or short-run requirements where it will work. (2) Tailstock set-over and turning the taper between centers. A method that works fine and used to be commonly taught but has several disadvantages. (a) It's pretty much a "cut and try" method, meaning you estimate the required offset setting, make several trial passes, measure the results, and adjust and repeat until the results are close enough. (b) Accuracy of second and subsequent parts depends upon the stock being the same length and the center holes being the same depth. (c) You can't quickly change the taper to zero and make a regular part unless it doesn't require use of the tailstock. (d) Returning to normal operation takes about as much time as setting up for cutting the taper. Robert D. ------- ML7 turning steep taper [myfordlathes] Posted by: "Brad Campbell" lists2009x~xxfnarfbargle.com Date: Sun Feb 22, 2015 12:36 am ((PST)) G'day all, I had need to turn a Vee pulley. I was replicating one I broke so I had something to measure. I needed to get the sheaves at 38 degrees, so I had to set the top slide over at 71 degrees. I recently made some marks to allow me to set it at 60.5 degrees for threading (which seems pretty close to the limit), but 71 was just too far for the tee nuts/slots to secure things in place. Being in somewhat of a hurry I set the slide angle using a protractor off the face of the pulley blank and used a small G-clamp to hold the turn-table to the cross slide. I then just honed the cutting tool to a razors edge and took very small and slow cuts creating a mass of steel wool swarf. This felt like a pretty crude hack, but it got the job done. I'm planning on doing some more pulleys in the future. Is there a better way to set the top slide over, or would I be better setting the pulley on a mandrel between centres and offsetting the tailstock? My neighbour lent me a plunge cutter that does a vee slot in one cut, but I figured that would be way too much load for the ML7, particularly as this pulley was 4140. I just used it as a fit template. I can see a number of uses for having the top slide set right over, I just can't seem to come up with a logical way to do it that does not feel like abuse. Regards, Brad ------- Re: ML7 turning steep taper Posted by: "csjohnson" colinsjx~xxbtinternet.com slangbela1 Date: Sun Feb 22, 2015 3:46 am ((PST)) Grind a tool on both sides to the 38*, groove to the appropriate depth with a parting tool, then trim the sides with tool mentioned above, held perpendicular to the pulley's circumference. Colin ------- Re: ML7 turning steep taper Posted by: "Brad Campbell" lists2009x~xxfnarfbargle.com Date: Sun Feb 22, 2015 6:46 am ((PST)) I did cut the slot with the parting tool initially. I honestly thought using a forming tool would be beyond the little lathe given the difficulty I had cutting the initial slot. I still haven't found the other half of the parting blade and mine is not a big workshop. I'll have a crack at it next time. Regards, Brad ------- Re: ML7 turning steep taper Posted by: "Bob Hamilton" bobx~xxhamilton-bob.freeserve.co.uk ukdiverbob Date: Sun Feb 22, 2015 4:40 am ((PST)) Yes, forming is the simple answer. I do wonder if using a rear mounted toolpost might make things a bit safer, with less chance of digging in??? Bob ------- Re: ML7 turning steep taper Posted by: "Richard Wilson" richardpwilson61x~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Sun Feb 22, 2015 9:36 am ((PST)) Grind the 38 degree tool narrower than the groove you need. Then, having put the intial groove in with the parting tool, go in say 1/16" with the 38 tool, do one side, then the other, till you've got nearly full width at the top. Go in another 1/16", do the same again until full depth. Then all you've got to do is a light shave each side, full depth. Yes, a rear toolpost would be helpful. ------- Re: ML7 turning steep taper Posted by: "csjohnson" colinsjx~xxbtinternet.com slangbela1 Date: Sun Feb 22, 2015 11:37 am ((PST)) For the slot with the parting tool, it is not very deep. It is best done with a back tool post. Take several side by side cuts, to get to the width of bottom of the groove. Then nibble the sides of the groove, no need to take heavy cuts. I have made many multi step pulleys on an ML7 by this method. Are you making it in steel, cast iron or aluminium? Colin ------- Re: ML7 turning steep taper Posted by: "Brad Campbell" lists2009x~xxfnarfbargle.com Date: Sun Feb 22, 2015 6:57 pm ((PST)) G'day Colin, the slot had to be *deep* as it has a clutch mechanism that sits in there to lift the belt when disengaged. The sheaves were about 10mm deep, and the slot was another 12mm on this. I was making it out of 4140 steel, so it was a lot harder than anything I've turned before. Regards, Brad ------- Re: ML7 turning steep taper Posted by: "Bob Hamilton" bobx~xxhamilton-bob.freeserve.co.uk ukdiverbob Date: Sun Feb 22, 2015 2:22 pm ((PST)) To be honest, while there is no problem using a parting tool to give an initial groove, why not just use the “V” tool side and side. Certainly make this tool narrower than the finished groove width. Attempting to finish the groove with a tool the full width is almost certain to be problematic. Bob ------- Re: ML7 turning steep taper Posted by: "Alan Moore" a.j.moorex~xxbtinternet.com Date: Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:28 am ((PST)) Brad, As has been said many times before on this group, if you want trouble-free deep slotting or parting off you need a rear toolpost or, better still, an insert-type parting tool. Takes all the worry, stress and jam-ups away. Regards, Alan ------- Re: ML7 turning steep taper Posted by: "Brad Campbell" lists2009x~xxfnarfbargle.com Date: Mon Feb 23, 2015 4:48 am ((PST)) And I listened. I purchased a rear parting post at Christmas time, however using it on a short cross slide is as inconvenient as hell as I have to take the top slide off completely to get enough clearance. So while I have it, I've not used it in anger yet. I probably should have used it for the pulley, but I've been gradually working on my technique and weeding out set up issues in the machine, and once I'd started the slot using the front QCTP I just figured I'd learn to make the best of it. I've just been given an insert style parting blade and some inserts to play with, but they are off a much bigger machine and I'm still working on a method to modify the blade to be a more manageable size (read make it fit my holders). I've got a lot to learn, and rest assured I don't ignore *any* of the advice I've got from people on this particular mailing list. It's all filed away for investigation and use as time and funds allow. Regards, Brad ------- Trying to Identify Myford taper attachment [myfordlathes] Posted by: 1044kenx~xxtiscali.co.uk sedge1044 Date: Tue Sep 8, 2015 7:17 am ((PDT)) I have posted a photo of a taper turning attachment that I have. It is missing the slider and link that attaches it to the cross slide. I am trying to find the drawing/plans to be able to make a new link. Anybody any ideas? Ken ------- Re: Trying to Identify Myford taper attachment Posted by: johnx~xxstevenson-engineers.co.uk stevenson_engineers Date: Tue Sep 8, 2015 7:35 am ((PDT)) The next issue of MEW (233) will see the start of a short series on rebuilding one of these attachments including remaking most of the parts as only the main casting was available. ------- ------------------------------------------------------------------ This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------