Here are discussions on methods of producing tapers on the metal lathe, whether or not an original taper attachment is available. This file was renamed from Taper Devices to Taper Methods. Ideally every lathe would have a taper attachment, and turning tapers is then a relatively simple matter of setting up that device. Those lucky owners are probably a very small minority. And if you do not have a taper device, you could always make one; some people here have done just that. Plan sources are listed in this file. Or, like the majority, you will have to employ one of the taper-turning workarounds. It could be by off-setting the tailstock, or by using the compound slide. Help for you is a common topic here. If you got to this file directly from my HOME PAGE, return there by using your browser's back button. 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(c) Copyright 2003 - 2007 Machining and Metalworking at Home The form of the collected work in this text file (including editing, additions, and notes) is copyrighted and this file is not to be reproduced by any means, including electronic, without written permission except for strictly personal use. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 17:18:47 -0000 From: "W.C. Gates" Subject: 6" taper attachment - Request for Tailstock [File Note: they are referring to 1916 Popular Mechanics which has a very general article on making a taper attachment for any lathe. Also, it should not be necessary to actually attach the device to the ways. If the lathe is securely anchored to the table (solid!), then the device could be also-- thus requiring fewer holes and mods to the actual lathe.] Several weeks ago, I saw on eBay a different kind of taper attachment. This one was manufactured by Royal. It had a #3MT to go into the tailstock and a center that moved sideways on a micrometer slide. Also a small bubble level to get it true horizontally. That one was obviously too big for the 6", but since I saw it, I have been sketching designs for an adaptation to my 6" Atlas M101. I would like to try making such a gadget, but I don't want to modify my current tailstock to try it. Anybody out there have a old M101 tailstock I can buy? I don't need the ram or screw/handle, just the body. W.C. Gates ------- Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 10:48:10 -0700 From: "Maxwell Sandford" Subject: Re: 6" taper attachment - Request for Tailstock Mount an adjustable boring head in the tailstock, for example the 2" adjustable import head that is sold by nearly all the machine tool vendors. Position a live center in the boring head and use the micrometer screw in the boring head to offset the center as required. You have to find a live center with a straight shank (or turn a taper straight) to fit the boring head. This is a good small-lathe way of turning tapers without having to offset the tailstock. Even so, offsetting the tailstock with a dial indicator works well and it is not particularly difficult to return the tailstock to the center position, again using the dial indicator. The trick to cutting tapers is to cut the taper until you get close and then to try the fit and adjust the offset as required to get a proper match. Remove the taper from the lathe leaving the dog in position of course, and chalk a line down the taper you have cut. Fit to a female taper using a twisting motion and then examine the chalk mark to determine the change that is required to the offset. Adjust the offset as required using the dial indicator or the boring head adjustment screw, replace the taper in the lathe and take final cuts until the fit-check shows the taper is correct. This is the method I have used for quite awhile and it works well for me. Comments by the experts are always welcomed by me, because there are always different opinions and better ways (no pun intended). ------- Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 07:58:45 -0000 From: "W.C. Gates" Subject: Tailstock-mounted Taper Attachment- II Remember, please, this is for the Atlas 6" lathe which has a little, tiny #1 Morse Taper in the tailstock. Also, the ram diameter is small, so the rotational play of the ram due to looseness of its key in its slot is magnified, compared to a larger lathe. The idea here is to arrange some sort of horizontal dovetail slide with a micrometer adjustment, which moves a center out sideways a precise amount and is STABLE!. We also have to be able to move the center horizontally parallel to the ways, to grab the work and adjust the center tightness. I have this vision of a vertical plate with the dovetail slide, micrometer, and moving center cone, with the plate resting on the ways to prevent rotation; alternatively, this plate has a short rod out the back which fits into a hole in a plate attached to the tailstock, to prevent rotation. The back of this assembly would be attached to a newly-fabricated ram in a tailstock, which would hold it adequately rigid but allow it to be pushed forward to adjust distance between centers. Or, it may be easier to mill flats on the side of the tailstock parts to accurately mount a bracket and micrometer head to measure offset. That at least solves the rigidity problem. ------- Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 07:50:40 -0700 From: "Maxwell Sandford" Subject: Re: Tailstock-mounted Taper Attachment- II > Remember, please, this is for the Atlas 6" lathe which has a little, > tiny #1 Morse Taper in the tailstock. Also, the ram diameter is > small, so the rotational play of the ram due to looseness of its key > in its slot is magnified, compared to a larger lathe. Well, when I turn tapers in my 101.21400 I use a live center in the tailstock, set the offset, apply longitudnal pressure with the ram, and LOCK the ram. The back end is as tight as the dog and center at the headstock. I'm a big believer in KISS machining. The 6" tailstock has done well for me for over twenty years. ------- Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 15:55:34 -0000 From: "Jerry Lang" Subject: Atlas 6 inch taper attachment Anyone interested in a photo of the Atlas 6 inch taper attachment can visit Tony Griffiths web site in the UK . Click on Atlas then Atlas 6 inch Lathes then click on accessories. The photo is clearer than the one I scanned for several members. Also there is a lot of information about all sizes of Atlas lathes (and any other brand of lathe you can even imagine). Anyone want to know about a Atlas Peck-O-Matic? It's at Tony's site. Enjoy Jerry ------- Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 16:39:33 -0000 From: ptolemyx~xxbellsouth.net Subject: Re: Morse Taper Jerry Jankura wrote: > Is it something like "The taper is 20 degrees, > so you should only rotate the headstock 10 degrees Yes -- though I was using the compound slide. I set the angle to be the total angle of the taper, and not the angle between the edge and center. I originally set up the angle using a morse taper "dead" center. My conjecture was that if I set the center in the gap between the compound slide and my chucked part, the angle would be exactly correct when the top of the center was parallel to the bed just as the center fell through the space between the slide and the part. It turns out I was right -- to within four minutes of arc -- but obviously (in retrospect) the angle was double what it should be. For my second try, I chucked a morse taper "backwards", that is, with the small end of the taper facing away from the chuck, and used this to align the compound slide. This was not quite as accurate, but it gave me a starting point for "sneaking up" on the final taper. I adjusted the final taper by leaving the slide in place after each cut, but backing off the main screw to leave a tiny (almost invisible) gap under the cutting head. I then "rotated out" this gap by turning the compound slide what amounts to a few minutes of arc at a time. I constantly checked the taper against the tailstock I was going to be using it in. Eventually, I got it pretty much on the nose! Biggest lesson learned: If I had drawn a diagram of the cut first and thought a little more about the geometry, I would have seen the original angle was too big by double. Neil ------- Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 18:15:06 -0500 From: "David R. Kuechenmeister" Subject: Re: Taper attachment for Craftsman 6" 101 lathe I think you will be as happy making tapers by offsetting the tailstock. Just check the taper frequently until you have the tailstock adjusted to the correct position. No different than what you would have to do with the taper attachment. The only difference is finding the starting point. You can do that by just making a calculation and offsetting the tailstock from the headstock with a rule. The calculation takes the taper and workpiece length into account. If you would like I'll look it up and post it later. Regards, Dave ------- Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 16:37:47 -0700 From: "Maxwell Sandford" Subject: Re: Taper attachment for Craftsman 6" 101 lathe Use a dial indicator instead of a rule. Mount it with magnetic base to read the tailstock offset, and that way you can reset the tailstock to its proper position when you're done cutting the taper. The advice to check the taper frequently while cutting is excellent. You'll likely not be exactly right with the offset, so when you are getting close mark a chalk-line on the taper, remove it and check its fit with a known good female part, and then replace it. Use the same lathe-dog position it was in before you removed it. The formulae and calculations are in the Craftsman lathe manual. M. T. Sandford ------- Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 19:26:53 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Taper attachment for Craftsman 6" 101 lathe There is a simple method to get them perfect, namely to use the compound and indicate on your headstock or tailstock inside taper until the compound is perfectly set to your taper. Then turn up a taper between centers (so you can pull the center and check fit easily) and check it. Adjust if required, but be sure it is needed before adjusting. Roughness from turning can make it seem incorrect. Once you have it right, you can make several more. You can finish the rest of the tool later as you need them. I suggest making several because it can be finicky to get right, and you may as well get use out of the setup. Now the 6" may be too limited in travel on the compound to do a full length taper, but you may be able to get enough length to fit well, and then turn a "bumper" of smaller diameter to allow push-out on what would be the small end of the taper. Or you can borrow use of a bigger lathe, maybe. You want to use the type indicator with a lever arm at the end, not the plunger type. Jerry ------- Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 22:56:03 EST From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Taper attachment for Craftsman 6" 101 lathe merlinevx~xxAOL.com writes: > Does anyone know anything about a taper attachment to make Morse taper > shanks for different tools for a Craftsman 101-07301 lathe. I made morse taper attachements for both my 6 and 12 inch Atlas by using tailstock setover. Start with some oversize stock and you pretty well have to go by cut and try. Measure as well as you can, cut a short section of taper, put a chalk line and twist in the socket. When the chalk line is rubbed off the full length then go ahead and cut the full taper. Time consuming, but many of us have more time than money for our hobbies. If you have an existing taper you can copy just put your known taper between centers and adjust set over till the taper shows the same dti reading the full length. Of course your master taper has to be the same overall length as your work piece. John Meacham High Desert of California, Palmdale, Littlerock. ------- Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 23:19:50 EST From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Taper attachment for Craftsman 6" 101 lathe merlinevx~xxAOL.com writes: > Let me try the offset method. I was afraid that I could not get the > tail stock back to the proper relation to the headstock There should be scribed lines on the tailstock housing to line up the centers again. Check by putting a chunk of shafting you know is of constant diameter between centers then use your DTI which should read the same headstock end to tailstock end for final adjustements. For a quick setting bring tailstock up to head stock with a center in each. Put a thin rule horizinontally between the centers and pinch it lightly. Any offset in the rule will show whch way to adjust the tailstock to center again. John Meacham High Desert of California, Palmdale, Littlerock. ------- Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 07:19:20 -0600 From: "Skip Evans" Subject: Re: Taper attachment for Craftsman 6" 101 lathe >From: "David R. Kuechenmeister" >The best alignment tool you can make BEFORE you start fooling with >the tailstock is a test bar. Turn both ends of a six inch bar to a >precise diameter, say 1 in, for example. Then to realign the >tailstock, put the bar between centers indicate off the headstock end >with a dial on the compound. Note the reading on the cross-slide >collar. Back out away from the test bar, move the cross-slide to the >tailstock end of the bar and move it back in to the distance >previously indicated on the collar. Then adjust the tailstock to zero >out the dial and you have a taper-free setup. Have fun. Dave I do this just a little different. I built a holder for a dial indicator. This holder is mounted on the compound. To keep from having to make any changes to the cross slide, I pull the dial indicator plunger away from the stock when traversing to the other end of the test bar. My test bar is about 12" long and I only turned one end. I flip the test bar between centers. Now that I think about it, would I be better off turning each end? ------- Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 08:27:48 -0500 From: "David R. Kuechenmeister" Subject: Re: Taper attachment for Craftsman 6" 101 lathe I don't think you need to turn both ends. That's one of the best things about turning between centers-- the work is concentric and you can always flip it end for end. What I actually did was to turn a bar, then harden and grind it to a constant diameter. That way I can run the indicator up and down the bar and watch the runout. I just thought that was a little too complex for a home shop. ------- Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 08:41:59 -0500 From: "David R. Kuechenmeister" Subject: Re: Taper attachment for Craftsman 6" 101 lathe Sorry, I should have done this last night, but I was out shovelling the first round of snow. Quite a rare thing to do in Atlanta. The offset in inches is : Offset = (tpi * Len)/2, where tpi is taper per inch and Len is workpiece length in inches. or Offset = (tpf * Len)/24, where tpf is taper per foot and Len is as above. If there is a short taper on a long workpiece, i.e. a straight shaft leading into a short taper, the formula is Offset = (Len * (D - d))/(2 * L_t), where Len is overall length, D is the large diameter of the taper, d is the small diameter of the taper, and L_t is the length of the taper. There is going to be some variation in the taper actually cut, so just measure often by blueing the piece and marking lines 1 in apart. Then measure the taper per inch with a micrometer. You can do better if you take the piece out of the lathe and measure the taper with gage blocks and a couple dowel pins or a sine bar. I don't have a slab at home, so if I ever get the vibration in my lathe stopped, I think I'll just mike it . Regards, Dave Kuechenmeister ------- Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 14:47:14 EST From: Holyelvisx~xxaol.com Subject: taper I need to cut a short taper .320 in length, that runs from .470 dia. to .590 dia. How do I cut this taper accurately? Devin ------- Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 15:09:51 -0500 From: "Daniel J. Statman" Subject: Re: taper Is this a taper that you are copying from another part? If so, then you can chuck the part in a 3 or 4 jaw chuck so that it spins true. Then angle the headstock and with a DTI mounted to the cross-slide measure down the taper by turning the leadscrew to move the cross-slide. Tap the head to accurately get the angle right so that there is no deflection of the DTI when run down the taper. Lock the head in place and chuck a new blank and then cut the taper. Take light cuts so as not to torque the headstock out of alignment. If you do not have the taper already on another part, then it can be done with trial and error. Start with less angle than you need and cut from the large diameter down the shaft. Measure the small diameter at the length you want and adjust the taper slightly. Recut the length of the part and measure the small diameter, adjust as needed. Repeat until you have it right. This can take a long time and is a real PITA, but once you have the angle set, you can make as many as you need. Hope this helps, Daniel J. Statman, Statman Designs www.statmandesigns.com ------- Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 20:24:25 -0800 From: "Carol & Jerry Jankura" Subject: RE: Compound Slide and Tapers >>>I have a quick question about cutting tapers. I want to cut a few #0 MT and #1 MT for fixtures for my machine. I also noticed that the compound slide is the Internet special. My question: How much would / does the compound slide help in cutting tapers? <<< There are basically two ways to cut a taper on the Sherline Lathe. One is to rotate the head and use the conventional headstock. The other is to keep the head aligned and use the compound slide. I used the compound slide to make a 1/2 inch thread to MT-0 taper for the tailstock. I did it this way: 1. First mount the MT-0 taper that came with the lather in the 3 jaw chuck (gingerly so as not to damage the thread). Mount the compound slide on the cross-slide. 2. Eyeball the taper and set the angle of the compound. 3. Mount a Dial indicator on the cross-slide (requires some kind of clamping adapter) and move the compound up and down the taper. Fine tune the initial compound angle until there is no run-out on the indicator as the compound is moved back and forth. 4. Mount the piece to be machined. Replace the indicator with a cutter and have at it. Use the wide and narrow diameters on the original as check points for the new taper. Carol & Jerry Jankura Strongsville, Ohio ------- Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 21:43:10 -0500 From: "Marshall Pharoah" Subject: Re: Compound Slide and Tapers [sherline] January 27, 2002 "Daniel Kaschner" wrote: > Thanks for the help. I am going to get the compound slide tomorrow. I > know it would help for many other operations, but now that I can see how > it will simplify cutting Morse Tapers, well, that cinches it. :-) > After thinking over an earlier response, I started thinking and pretty > much came to the conclusion that was the process for cutting a Morse > taper, from a sample piece... I guess it is still somewhat hit-n-miss > if you don't have a sample taper, but it must still be easier > micro-adjusting the compound slide and test cutting than adjusting the > headstock (and the subsequent re-alignment)... I don't use a sample piece, at least I didn't for the first batch I cut. I did try chucking up the threaded end, but the other end wobbled and I couldn't stabilize it. So, this is the method I use: I chuck up a piece of 1/2 or 3/8 ground stock in the 4 jaw and get it centered using a DTI. I usually use a threading tool (carbide) at this point to scribe two lines an inch apart. Set the compound to the approx reading in degrees. This requires a significant amount of guess work. Next I mount a 1" dial travel indicator in the compound, and square it to the work; then set the compound travel handwheel to a zero reading, and adjust the carriage travel to get me at one of the scribed marks. Adjust the carriage cross slide to get the indicator in the middle of the operating range. I run the compound until I reach the other scribed mark, then check the indicator reading. Adjust the compound and repeat as necessary. Each time you adjust the compound angle, square up the travel indicator to the work. I posted the taper measurements just a few days ago, and don't have them handy at the moment, so you'll have to go back through the history, or get Alan to post them. I didn't mention above, but I've been turning the small end of the taper at the far end from the headstock. You need to take this into account when you read the dial indicator. The actual taper length for a #0 as supplied by Sherline is less than 1", so I usually check that and scribe while I'm scribing the other lines. I suppose that moving the travel indicator point along the work isn't quite correct procedure, but the ground stock is pretty smooth, so I don't feel I'm hurting it any. A bigger problem would be the indicator not being square, but that should cancel out because the angle of the indicator to the work doesn't change. Having done this and cut one that was correct, you can save a "blank" to use for future setups. As with most things, the setup consumes the time. The actual cutting is pretty quick. Marshall ------- Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 23:28:56 -0800 From: "Marcus & Eva" Subject: Re: Compound Slide and Tapers Hi Marshall and others: What you have described is the technically correct way to set up a taper, like all the textbooks on the subject describe. It is painfully tedious but will get you where you want to go. Let me describe for you, a far easier toolmaker's trick for setting tapers when you have a sample to work to. Clamp a parallel to the side of the compound slide that sticks up above center. Chuck up the sample taper in the 3 jaw (the drill chuck arbors are good for this, but don't bother taking the arbor off the chuck; just stuff the whole nose of the drill chuck into the 3 jaw after you open the drill chuck jaws all the way). Place a bit of white paper on the cross slide and shine a light on it. Now you can undo the swivel screws of the compound and swing the compound around until you can see no light between the side of the parallel and the edge of the sample taper. You can discriminate ten-thousandths of inches easily this way; it is actually more accurate than using a DTI, because you don't need to worry about having the DTI point exactly on center. Clamp down the compound slide, chuck up your part, and start cutting. Blue it in to a sample female taper and adjust by tapping the compound over 0.001" or so in the desired direction at a time. Takes less time to do than to describe. You can swing the head of the Sherline over in exactly the same way; all you need is a reference straightedge that is parallel to the long axis of the lathe. Just clamp a parallel to the side of the toolpost, and a round bar in the chuck. Orient the toolpost so no light shows between the parallel and the bar and clamp down the toolpost. Chuck up the sample taper and swing over the headstock. Line it up as before against the straightedge. You should be set up and cutting in less than 5 minutes if you have the parallel, the clamps, and the round bar to hand. The way that is traditionally described in textbooks can result in farting about for a half hour or more, and still typically requires adjustments to compensate for the errors introduced by the difficulty in getting the DTI point exactly on center. Of course, you can't do this particular trick if you don't have a sample taper to work to. This method also implies, of course, that the sides of the compound are parallel to its movement; the Sherlines are typically pretty good, and it's easy to measure whether they are or not. Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 11:59:23 -0800 From: "Craig Libuse" Subject: Re: Re: Compound Slide and Tapers For the interest of the Group; Morse tapers are "about 5/8" per foot. We presume the standards for each taper were set before today's accurate measurement tools were available. In any case, they can't change them now, or new Morse tapers wouldn't fit the old machines. (This is how Sherline got stuck with a 55.5° dovetail angle...) Each is a little different and none are exactly 5/8" per foot. For your reference, here is "official" spec for each: #0 = .6246 inches per foot #1 = .59858" ipf #2 = .59941" ipf #3 = .60235" ipf #4 = .62326" ipf #5= .63151" ipf #6 = .62565" ipf #7 = .62400" ipf Other dimensions of Sherline machines can be found at www.sherline.com/dimen.htm. Craig Libuse Sherline Products Inc. ------- Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 20:47:18 -0800 From: "kimche" Subject: Re: Taper attachment There is another yahoo group called "Print_and_Plans". This group has a taper attachment designed around a 9" lathe. It is all made with bar stock. Could be scaled up or down. 5 pages good pictures I'm getting material together to build one for my 10X54. Paul/kimche 10X54 qc. ------- NOTE TO FILE: There was an animated discussion in the atlas_craftsman group about the "proper" way to turn tapers. Certainly many lathe owners do not have a taper attachment and have to resort to other methods. Following are just a very few messages with ideas that may be beneficial. For full discussion, see the thread there under "Digest Number 1621". ------- Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 23:35:54 -0400 (EDT) From: x xx Subject: Re: Re: Digest Number 1621 Hmmm. The more I think about this, and the more I've seen what you guys think about T/S setover, the more I wonder why tail stocks are not commonly fitted with a leadscrew for that would be a dead easy feature to incorporate at the production stage. Maybe there are subtle reasons, such as Ron mentions: the buggering of the dimple and probably of the dead centre. On the other hand, ball centres would alleviate that, but newbies wouldn't have the tools or the skill to make ball centres. Hmm...ruminate...gotta sleep some more on the trade offs. Sam ------- Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 00:40:47 -0400 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Re: Digest Number 1621 rigrac wrote: > If doing Morse Tapers why don't you get a used drill with correct taper > and put in collet or 3 Jaw chuck and then just dial length of taper > until indicator reads zero from start to finish of that taper. Hi Ron: I've done this exact thing several times. Only drawback is that the compound travel is less than the length of a "real" MT3 on most lathes in the small shop. I think my SB13 has just enough travel, buy my Atlas 12 incher and SB9 do not. Not a problem for some stuff, it isn't as through you don't have enough contact area, but if you intend to make tapers that eject from the tailstock when the ram is retracted fully you need to leave a stub. Also a problem for drawbars unless you make a longer drawbar or leave a smaller diameter than the taper on the small end to internally thread. Trying to match two separately turned areas on the taper is a doable proposition, but not easy! I found it easiest to simply turn as much of the large end of the taper as the compound travel allows, then cut the remaining smaller end of the taper a thou or two undersize. This leaves as much meat as possible, while avoiding the hassle of trying to exactly match two different sets of cuts. Just break the shoulder so you don't ding up the MT socket the tooling is put into. Only so many times you can use a reamer before things start to seat too deeply. I dislike tailstock setover for three reasons: 1) You have to use ball nosed centers to avoid trashing the points of the centers or the center holes. At least if the taper rate is of any significant amount. 2) For multiple parts, the pieces must be exactly the same length, with center holes drilled to exactly the same depth. If not, the tapers on different pieces will be of different rates. 3) Getting the tailstock back on dead center is a fiddly bit of work, even with a test bar. When I must do tailstock setover, I usually use a two inch dial indicator on the bed, and a one inch dial indicator on the toolpost to set the rate in thou per inch. Indicating the work dead on center while moving the carriage exactly one or two inches allows you to fine tune the taper rate for each workpiece. Time consuming, but OK for a hobby shop or a special one off piece when a commercial bit of tooling just won't do. Indicating over two inches of travel improves the accuracy just a bit. You can also use a sine bar and jo blocks stacked to generate the complementary angle and adjust the tailstock for zero indicated deflection on the toolpost indicator when the top face of the sine bar is indicated. Ugly, and error prone as you must be set up perfectly on center and either use a short sine bar or a long work piece. As with everything, it's a time/money trade off. I don't have a taper jig for any of my lathes, making one is on the round toit list. Fortunately for me, doing tapers is a fairly rare event so I simply do the job when fresh and enjoy the fiddling to get it right. No way to make money, but OK for a pleasant bit of hobby shop time :-) Cheers, Stan ------- Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 08:28:53 +0100 From: "Ernest Lear" Subject: Re: Re: Digest Number 1621 This is the way I do it but I clock it up true in a 4-jaw chuck. Checking both ends to make sure its perfectly turning on the lathe axis before running the indicator dial fitted to the compound along the length of taper setting the compound angle until reading is zero over the full length of the sample taper. Now the compound is set to use to cut the new taper. Ernest ------- Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 10:57:54 -0500 (CDT) From: dswrx~xxwebtv.net Subject: Re: Re: Turning a taper Don't know if anyone has mentioned this method. It should avoid the hazards of moving the tailstock off center... Mount a boring head on an arbor that fits the the spindle taper. Mount a length of drill rod in the center hole in the boring head. Turn a center point on the end of the drill rod. Remove the boring head from the spindle taper arbor. Install it on an arbor that fits the tailstock taper. Mount the boring head with it's slide horizontal. Mount the work between centers. To set the taper, adjust the boring head slide. Haven't tried it myself, but I have not had a need to turn a taper! 8-) Leo (pearland, tx) ------- Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 04:44:35 -0000 From: "carbure2003" Subject: Re: #700 Taper Attachment Even though the #700 is for the 10 in only, I can tell you that with minor modifications it will fit a Altas/Craftman 12 in. I bought one recently. Some modifications are required on the draw bar (5 min with a vise and 2 1/4 in diameter drills to bend slightly the bar). The other modification is to the bracket that fits on the bed. (a little bit of milling) This taper attachment is much more versatile than the standard Atlas taper attachment. When I bought mine, I was about to manufacture a bracket to fit a South Bend taper attachment to my Craftsman lathe. In order to give the full range of operation to the taper attachment, a small extension piece has to be manufactured (a 2 to 3 in long steel plate bolted to the bed bracket). If the holes are not drilled in the saddle, then you will need to drill the mounting holes. The taper attachment allows to cut a taper up to 7 in long with a very quick reset on the bed. If mounted properly, it can be disengaged within some seconds. I can supply on request pictures of the taper attachment model 700 fitted on my Craftsman 101.28990 Guy Cadrin Gatineau, QC Canada ------- Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 05:17:39 -0000 From: "kelpas" Subject: Machining a taper I want to machine a taper in a short piece of rod and was wondering if someone can give me the equation for working out what degrees to set the comound slide at. I want the part to be .187" at one end and .282" at the other end and .500" long. Thanks Kel ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following is a answer contributed by Dan Statman, and tweaked by Radish, and corrected by Dan. The corrected math is here. Remember that the DIAMETERS needed at each end were posed in the original question. The correct triangle uses the difference between the RADII as one leg, and uses 0.5" as the other leg. ------- Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 07:07:05 -0500 From: "Statman Designs, LLC" Subject: Re: Re: Machining a taper >>> Hi Daniel, might be kinda wrong with my figgerin' on this problem, but I was taught to draw the problem and then add the numbers and then do the figgerin' out. If you draw the TWO triangles that will be created by the taper turning, you will soon see that there is 0.095" combined in the TWO triangles, halve the 0.095" for each triangle and you will now have 0.0475". Now to use the trusty ole' calculater and you will now come to the angle of 5.4268 to set the compound slide too. Have been known to be wrong on plenty of occasions, but have a look and see if I am wrong once again. radish <<< Radish, you are 100% correct, and I made a simple mistake. It is a simple right triangle trigonometry problem. The taper makes a right triangle with legs of length 0.500" and just the difference of radius = (0.282"-0.187")/2 = 0.095"/2 = 0.0475" The correct taper angle is the inverse tangent of 0.0475/0.5 = 5.427 degrees. Sorry for the error. BTW, I did draw the picture the first time, so that doesn't make it fool-proof, ;-) Daniel J. Statman, Statman Designs www.statmandesigns.com dan.statmanx~xxrennlist.com ------- Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 08:19:25 -0800 From: "keith green" Subject: Re: Machining a taper All considerations of math aside, all you need to do is set up a dial indicator on your crosslide. Wind it up the length of the long side of your triangle and the dial should read the length of your short side. The math will get you close but the dial will get you all the way. Keith ------- Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 22:19:11 -0000 From: "Radish" Subject: Re: Machining a taper Hi Keith, just trying to work out how the way you described to do the taper turning would work with a straight bar in the chuck ready to be turned. Just got an inquisitive mind and can not quite get my head around your way of doing it. radish ------- NOTE TO FILE: Keith's approach in the next message was also detailed by Marshall on 27 Jan 2002 -- see that message Re: Compound Slide and Tapers above in this file. Read both messages to get this idea clear in your mind. ------- Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 15:19:09 -0800 From: "keith green" Subject: Re: Re: Machining a taper Well, you put the bar in the chuck. Swing your compound over to where you think the angle is as close as possible. Mount your dial face-up on the toolpost with the stylus on the center of the rod and parallel to the face of the chuck. Set your dial to zero and wind the compound the distance you need to go. The dial should read more or less what the short leg of your triangle is supposed to be. Here's an example. If your rod is an inch and you want the end to taper down to ½ an inch over 1 inch, the short leg of your triangle will be ¼" and the adjacent side will be 1". The hypotenuse is found using Pythagorus (a² + b² = c²), so wind the compound 1.125. If your dial reads less than ¼" then your angle is too shallow, more and it's too steep. Make sure it's as close as you can get it because your error will be double when you cut. Keep the dial as flat and square as you can. If your dial doesn't have enough travel in it, you'll have to work out the angle for a shorter hypotenuse. Actually, if your dial has lots of travel left, it wouldn't be a bad idea to work out the triangle for the longest hypotenuse you can use; cuts down on your error. Keith Green Vancouver, BC ------- Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 17:50:43 -0000 From: "steve" Subject: Re: Machining a taper Thanks Keith, I've wondered how you set up accurately for a taper. A long travel dial gauge has gone onto the 'wants' list. Thanks again - Season's greetings Steve ------- Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 11:24:21 -0800 From: "keith green" Subject: Re: Re: Machining a taper Don't go wasting your money. I work on a lathe 30 ft long and swinging over 2 feet. Rarely need more than the one-incher. You just have to work out the taper for the travel you have. There are a couple little easy-to-remember formulae for triangle work that I use all the time. Just need a calculator with the sin-cos-tan functions on it. The acronyms to remember are; SOH CAH TOA . Say those three 'words' fast a few times and you'll never have trouble (too much) with triangles again. The 'O' stands for the side opposite (across from) an angle in a triangle. The first letters stand for the trig functions. The last ones, H stand for hypotenuse and A stands for the side adjacent (beside) an angle in the triangle. OK. You want to turn your 1" rod down to ½" on the end and taper it over 4". Draw yourself a right-angle triangle and fill in the dimensions you DO know and fill in a letter or symbol for the one you want (the angle). Now you should have a triangle with a short leg (oppposite side) of .25 (half the taper) and an adjacent side of 4" Look back to the acronym and see which one has the two terms 'O' and 'A' in it: TOA, right? So, write it down: TAN of the angle = .25 over 4" (draw as fraction). TAN of angle = .25 over 4 If you divide .25 by 4 and then do INVerse TAN of that number in your calculator, it gives you your an angle in decimal degrees. If you have trouble seeing this (wouldn't be the first), I will try to find the sheet I was given in school and scan it for the group. Keith ------- Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 03:01:08 -0000 From: "kelpas" Subject: Re: Machining a taper Keith, Sorry for the late reply. I set the angle with a protractor and then used the dial indicator to get it just right. Worked like a charm and only took ten min to set up. Thanks for your advice. Kel ------- NOTE TO FILE: Now choose YOUR preferred method for the job at hand. Whatever the case, I'm going to draw the triangle involved first. ------- Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 02:32:45 -0000 From: "thomaslittleford" Subject: Re: Nifty attachment plans? If you can find a copy of the Popular Mechanics do it yourself encyclopedia there is a plan for a taper attachment in volume 14 page 2572. I am looking at the 1968 version. You can usually find them in old book stores. ------- Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 22:18:20 -0500 From: "piggy" Subject: Re: Nifty attachment plans? i made a pretty nice taper attachment for my 12 inch atlas and i plan to make photos and plans avail but i dont know when i can get to it as i am busy killing alligators that are biting at my heels lol. it is easy to build one and if i put mine together on my lathe piece by piece taking photos with each piece installed then it will be very easy for someone to modify or copy the design on thier own. i will try to get to it this month but no promises. if you can come to south ga you can look on your own lol Don T. EVO Power & Machine www.accessatc.net/~piggy www.snartracing.com ------- Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1970 16:07:47 -0800 From: "Wm. Dubin" Subject: Re: Re: Machining a taper Keith: If you don't mind, I'd like to take advantage of your knowledge on tapers to ask a further question. I'm turning some small columns that I want to put a slight taper on, just enough to be visual. As you can tell, I haven't gone very far with this, because of this next part: I also want to flute these columns, so I need to adjust for this taper when I set up the rotary table and tail stock. So far, I've had 2 ideas as to how to try and do this: 1) to use the face-plate and dog at the rotary end, and to raise the angle of the tail stock until it was level through the taper, or 2) to use the mill table plate, set the rotary table & tail stock level on it, but slip a set of shims between it and the mill bed until the taper was level. Method #2 has the disadvantage of possibly harming the bed from over-tightening, #1 has the possible lack of strength in the face-plate/dog set up. I'll be using a 1/32" ball to mill the flutes, and at a depth of .0250 so there shouldn't be to much pressure on the column itself. The material will be brass. Thanks for your help on this, and for any other suggestions you or anyone else might add to this for me. Wm. ------- Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 13:11:29 -0500 From: "Statman Designs, LLC" Subject: Re: Re: Machining a taper If the taper is shallow enough and the flutes are deep enough, you might get by without angling the column when you cut the flutes. They will vary in depth as the taper does, but it may be just as visually appealing. I assume this is aesthetics only. Daniel J. Statman, Statman Designs www.statmandesigns.com dan.statmanx~xxrennlist.com ------- Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1970 16:54:50 -0800 From: "Wm. Dubin" Subject: Re: Re: Machining a taper Daniel: The taper will probably be something on the order of 1/16", as the length of taper will only be about 2". Still, unless I cut the flute deeper, I think thedifference will be very noticeable. And yes, it's strictly an aesthetic thing. However, if it works, I've been considering doing it also on a very large column - app. 7" of taper (which will be cut in stages on a large lathe and blended with a file. This one would require the flute depths to be uniform, so this is more like a test run. Daniel, as an aside, have you ever worked with PMC? Wm. ------- Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1970 16:57:30 -0800 From: "Wm. Dubin" Subject: Re: Re: Machining a taper > I would tend towards the first option, but only if you have one of > those dogs that eliminates slop (I assume you do). > Nothing wrong with the shim method either. Keith, thanks for the reply. The only dog I have is a rigid one that Sherline sells. I've not heard of one that will eliminate slop. Are there small (sherline sized) versions of this? (I order from MSC & J&L so I'll check their catalogues). Wm. ------- Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 11:00:42 -0800 From: Alan Marconett KM6VV Subject: Re: Re: Machining a taper Hi Wm: I did something similar on the column of a 1850 beam engine (inspired by M.E. plans) I'm working on. I used CNC on the Sherline lathe. My current part to make is the connecting rod (after I fix a bug I found in my XZ arcs). It will have a curved profile with flutes as well. I believe that the flutes on this piece are just parallel to the axis. I'll set up between centers on the rotary table and tailstock installed on the mill for this. Sherline has an adjustable tailstock, which might give you the taper you need. Easier then shimming, I think. Sorry I can't be of any more help, But this is new territory for me, and I'd like to explore it a little. I've also needed to cut rings on the column, which I did basically by hand. I first "boxed" them up for size, and then knocked off the corners, followed by filing. I know a profile tool would be the thing to use, but the one I attempted to grind had too large a radius to fit the arcs I wanted to cut. It did allow me to get to the backside a little bit better, but I still had to manually cut the rings. I'm open to suggestions here! The CNC tool paths I generated could not follow the stacked rings, and I still don't have the carbide insert holders needed to match Vector's turning tools. I'm attempting to use a 60 degree threading tool, and streight-in cutting. If I can get the taper/curves cut, and the rings "boxed" in, I'll be happy. Alan KM6VV ------- Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 14:10:03 -0500 From: "Statman Designs, LLC" Subject: Re: Re: Machining a taper PMC- precious metal clay? Never used it, but it looks interesting. The only think I don't like about it, from what I've read, is that is shrinks when fired. I have seen some cool pieces made with the stuff. Daniel J. Statman, Statman Designs www.statmandesigns.com dan.statmanx~xxrennlist.com ------- Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1970 17:50:44 -0800 From: "Wm. Dubin" Subject: Re: Re: Machining a taper Daniel, yes, that's the stuff. Here's the thing about the shrinkage, tomarrow I'm going to work with a lady down here with the stuff, She has told me, that IF I wrap it completely around a column in a few spots, and if it has something to hold on to, and she felt the flutes would do that OK, then it literally shrinks TIGHT against the brass column and will be as permanent as if it were soldered, and originally started as a casting. Don't know if this really is true, but it might open up an entire new world of bio-morphic carvings integrated on column(-like) pieces. Wm. ------- Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 12:50:13 -0800 From: "keith green" Subject: Re: Re: Machining a taper The one's [dogs] I've seen have two straight legs next to each other, either in a V- or U- configuration with a setcrew passing through the legs from outside to inside of the V or U. You mount a bolt in the slot of your faceplate with a jamb-nut so that it stays tight and in one place. The legs of the V or U pass over the bolt and the setscrews bear on the bolt shank from each side. When tight, they eliminate the slop. Keith ------- Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 16:25:38 -0800 From: "David" Subject: Re: Re: Machining a taper Wm: The only dog I have is a rigid one that Sherline sells. I've not heard of one that will eliminate slop. Are there small (sherline sized) versions of this? (I order from MSC & J&L so I'll check their catalogues). Many plans have been published (Home Shop Machinist, Model Engineer's Workshop, Rudy Kouhoupt's books, etc.) for making your own lathe dogs. They're pretty simple to make, fit much better than the cast ones (like Sherline's), and can be made to your own specs. The main problem with "slop," as I see it, is whether the lathe dog can comfortably accommodate the three-slot configuration (four-slot is much easier) of the Sherline faceplate, and whether the connection between the dog and the face plate is tight and without play. When you make your own dog, you make changes to its configuration to match the Sherline faceplate's requirements for fit and rigidity. Try it, you'll like it. Dave Wood ------- Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 18:40:50 -0800 From: "Marcus and Eva" Subject: Re: Re: Machining a taper Hi Wm: I followed this thread with interest, and I think I have something to contribute. The flutes you want to cut can be accomplished far more easily by the second method than the first. Set up your 4 jaw chuck on the rotary table to make it easy to center the parts perfectly. Mount the rotary table on the right angle attachment and then mount the works to the tooling plate with your tailstock at the other end. Tilt the whole plate up to the required angle. For a teeny cutter like this, you don't need much clamping pressure to hold the job down. It's a lot easier to tilt the whole rig than to fart about trying to get the tailstock at the right offset height, and to make sure the part can't rattle on the dog. This will become a significant problem whenever the slot on the faceplate approaches horizontal, because you can't easily snug up the slack without shifting the index position a bit. The dog leg needs to twist in the width of the slot, so the slot needs clearance for that motion. The setscrews that Keith is describing, take up that clearance, but you'll never know just where you positioned your dog leg relative to the slot when you reef on the setscrews. If you just let it rattle, you'll break the cutters for sure!! The other thing, is that you need to make the parts all exactly the same length and the centers exactly the same depth if you offset the tailstock. If you neglect this, your taper will be different for every part and it will be a major pain to get them all looking the same. Another option is to make a single tooth fly cutter and treat it like a saw. That way you don't need to tip the tailstock end up in the air, all you need to do is rotate the rig in the XY plane until your part edge is parallel to the X axis, and then clamp it to the table. Your cutter will be far stronger, but it will leave a longer runout, especially if it sticks out a fair ways. If you can accept this end shape, it's a better way than all the others, because you can take the cut in one pass. A third option, if you have the horizontal setup from Sherline, is simply to turn the machine into a horizontal mill and rotate the job as in method #2. Hope all this helps Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 11:00:55 -0500 From: "JERRY G" Subject: Re: Re: Machining a taper William, Or anybody who needs to do this. My suggestion. Make an adapter for the tail stock with a vertical slide. Key it in to maintain the "Y" location. Now just adjust in the "Z" dimension until your work is level and parallel to the table ways in the "X" axis. Any questions? Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 23:07:09 EST From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Digest Number 1395 > The main problem with "slop," as I see it, is whether the lathe dog > can comfortably accommodate the three-slot configuration Old time machinists trick to keep a dog tight to the face plate or driving plate is to bind the dog to the plate with a wet leather strip (Leather boot string?) When the leather dries it shrinks and holds everything in position. ------- Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1970 20:44:13 -0800 From: "Wm. Dubin" Subject: Re: Re: Machining a taper Marcus, (and everyone else who replied) Thanks for your long and involved piece on this. Last night I read Joe Martin's book, the part on turning tapers. As a Sherline lathe uses the headstock offset to turn a taper (with the faceplate & dog), it seemed that this form of solution might be duplicated by using the off-set tail stock with the rotary table/faceplate & dog. I agree that getting the angle exact would be difficult, but as my requirements are more visual than mechanical, I think I can come pretty close without to much difficulity - at least I'm hoping so. There will be 7 of these columns to flute, so getting the set-up once will be necessary and then it should flow. With the looseness in the face plate slot, I figured once I got everything in position, I'd wire it in place, so the inherent slop would be taken care of. What continues to bother me about mounting everything on the tooling plate is the effect of attaching it at an angle on the slots in the mills bed. These are really not very strong, and the idea that I might spring one, is NOT comforting. You mention I shouldn't need to much clamping preassure, but it seems like even a small amount could be dangerous. Using a rotary cutter like a saw wouldn't work in this case, as the distance of the cut (probably an inch to inch and a quarter at most) wouldn't allow it. I'm still a few weeks away from facing all this, so lots more ideas and concepts can go into it. Wm. ------- Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 16:21:35 -0800 From: Alan Marconett KM6VV Subject: Re: Re: Machining a taper HI Wm, I think Marcus is on the right track. I just milled four 1.5" flutes on a 4" long piece (conrod). Mine are simple horizontal flutes, made with a 1/4" ball end mill. As long as the rotary table and tailstock are rigid to each other, holding down to the ways should not be that demanding. I don't remember your taper, but if calculated over the 12" length of the X ways, can't be too much (good way to set up the taper, too). A pair of slightly longer screws at the raised end might be necessary, but that's all. I'd use the cupped washers (like the ones supplied with the stepped hold downs) to keep the screws aligned vertical. A custom plate would allow larger holes, which might be necessary with the screws at an angle. or just drill new hold down holes in your existing tooling plate. With the tooling plate setup, you can use a 3 or 4 jaw chuck to hold the work, and a dead center. No dogs needed. Dogs, I think, are better (only?) suited to holding a shaft for rotation in a single (loaded) direction. Without the load on the dog (from cutting), I doubt if it would hold the work for milling. You can easily match the taper by running a DTI (in spindle) up and down the taper after setting up your calculated taper on the ways. Just some thoughts, having just cut some flutes! (which look really neat, by the way). Alan KM6VV P.S. Pix of setup or part, if you want it. ------- Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1970 14:21:22 -0800 From: "Wm. Dubin" Subject: Re: Re: Machining a taper Hi Alan: Thanks for the great suggestion of using the the cupped washers, I had completely forgotten these, which I do own. With those in place, it does seem like the tooling plate method would work best. I'll have 2 sets of these to do. The first will be very small, a set of 7, each no larger than 3" in length, and the taper part probably only about 1 to 1.2500 inches long, so you are correct in that the taper itself would be very small and very slight. The second, and more difficult I would think, would be a column very much like the column that holds up a beam in the traditional beam engine...only in my case, it will be the rear "leg" holding up an entablature for a version of a side level beam engine using a 'grasshopper' configuration. The original was a tiny sketch of an old paddle-wheel engine a friend in Australia sent me. This uses two beams, and looks like a combination of an up-side down beam engine combined with a standard 'table' engine. This rear column (leg) will be at least 9 inches long, and from a blank that starts out at 2" thick. The taper will be very noticeable. The weight factor on the tools will come into play with this one. If you can send me a jpeg of your set up, I'de appreciate it. Wm. ------- Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 13:07:16 -0800 From: Alan Marconett KM6VV Subject: Re: Re: Machining a taper HI Wm: I've attached a pix of my flute cutting setup (no taper), and also of the parts I'm making for my Baby Beam Engine. The engine stands a little over 5" tall at the column. Actually I'm building two. One brass, one aluminum. Or at least that's the plan. The three sets of bearing blocks will of course be brass. I may decide to not make the brass engine completely brass (the base, of course, will be aluminum plate). What are your thoughts on mixing materials? C.I. or 12L14 steel for the piston, of course, for the brass cylinder, as these are to be working engines. In the engine parts pix, you'll see my first column tests. The column has a general taper, interrupted by rings. Also rings at the base and head. The rectangular base and head are milled and turned from separate pieces, and fixed together with three screws at each end. Mainly because I had yet to find suitable stock, and I couldn't turn it on the Sherline lathe (I don't yet have riser blocks). After hearing of your columns, I'm tempted to add flutes to a tapered column on one of my engines! Although that would further complicate the plans. The flywheel construction still looms in the near future, but the other parts are coming along fine. The parallel motion may cause some problems of their own, however. I've designed the motion, after established designs, but this is a relatively small scale, adding fine detail to the parts will be a challenge to me. I'm curious about your engine, the grasshopper engine is quite interesting. But you say a side level beam also? I'd enjoy seeing what you're doing! Too bad we're so far apart. I've also uploaded FlueCutting and BeamParts to KM6VV Engines in the files: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sherline/files/KM6VV%20Engines/ Best regards, Alan KM6VV ------- Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 20:02:04 -0000 From: "azbruno" Subject: Re: Looking for plans for Taper Attachment In atlas618lathex~xxyahoogroups.com, "mechanicjim2004" > Bruno or anyone else in the group intersted in plans for taper > attachment for atlas or any flatbed or v. lathe.if you have access to > a 1962 january Popular mechanics page 196 forward to page 200. There > are plans photos and extremely good explanations on how to build > this attachment.Good luck. Mechanic Jim I found this article in PDF format, but can't recall where. I also found it on a website just now: http://www.strippingknives.com/tools/taper.htm Bruno ------- NOTE TO FILE: A PDF copy is in the atlas618lathe file section at Yahoo. ------- Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 14:28:35 -0000 From: "jdmichael2001" Subject: Re: lathe centers In atlas_craftsmanx~xxyahoogroups.com, "bill_collins14" wrote: > Hi Carl,the centers are really easy to make.Use drill rod of the > appropriate diameter and length,calculate the tailstock offset needed > for the taper and just turn them to size. > I can whip one out in about 30-35 minutes.You can use either water or > oil hardening drill rod to make these from.Once they are made you can > heat treat the centers so they stay hard and the points won't gall up. > I have also seen a few at our local Sears store for a few bucks each. > GB. Bill C. Minford,Ohio Carl, what Bill probably meant to say and just forgot, is that a #0 Morse taper shank including tang is 2-11/32" long, is .3561" at the large end of the socket, .252" at the small end of a plug and has a taper of .05205" per inch so it could be made from 3/8" drill rod. If you're not finding a source, I'd suggest calling MSC and asking if they can get it for you. They can source items low volume items not in their catalog, they're friendly and have an 800 number (800-645-7270). Jan M. ------- Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 13:15:01 -0400 From: "mertbaker" Subject: Re: Re: lathe centers I wouldn't set the TS over for this. Just set the compound & use that. Mert ------- Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 11:36:11 EDT From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Lathe centers Mert: Been there, done that. Not enough travel in the compound to do the job, I had to set over the tail stock to make my pad center. The 6 inch Atlas had only 1-3/4 inch travel on the compound. I set over the tail stock, took a trial cut, chalk line on the work, try for fit, re-adjust the set over. Repeat till done. Maybe he does not need the full length for what he wants and there setting the compound may get enough of the taper for his needs. Made the pad a shrink fit on my new taper with a spigot on the end, Heated the pad in the oven, chilled the taper in the freezer and inserted the spigot, got half way home and got stuck, used it that way for several years and lost that center when I sold the lathe to go somewhere to Mexico. ------- Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 13:20:26 -0400 From: "mertbaker" Subject: Re: Lathe centers Nice thing about the 7xs is they use a short taper. So can the Atlas, but tastes differ. 1.75" is plenty for a #1MT. Mert ------- Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 23:00:30 -0500 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Lathe centers >> I wouldn't set the TS over for this. Just set the compound & use that. > Mert: Been there, done that. Not enough travel in the compound to do > the job, I had to set over the tail stock to make my pad center. The > 6 inch Atlas had only 1-3/4 inch travel on the compound. So then you cut it as long as you can, and let the rest be undersize and non-contacting. Keep the length so it will eject from the t/s. Another idea: Many good centers and arbors have contact only at two rings that have a space between of around 1/3 of the length. You could try re-setting and cutting most of the remainder of the taper, and your trial area becomes the "space" after you undercut it. Jerrold ------- Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 12:35:56 -0700 From: "Bob May" Subject: Re: Re: lathe centers I'll note here that the exact diameters for the small and large end are not critical but the taper itself is. If you're off by 0.020" fat/lean at one or the other end of a taper, it really doesn't matter as long as the taper angle itself is exactly right. Bob May http://nav.to/bobmay NEW! http://bobmay.astronomy.net ------- Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 19:53:44 -0000 From: "Carl Raish" Subject: lathe centers Fantastic response guys very helpful information, I never thought about making my own, but that is why we have lathes. Bill offered to send me some used ones so I can get the lathe aligned after I tore it apart for cleaning. I have located some drill rod, on the other side of town, Denver is spread from border to border. I am going to get 1/2 inch rod so I can make some new ones for my 618 (#1 morse). What does a guy need with 4 lathes, but that is my wife's question. Thanks for the assistance, I guess that is why I joined this group. Carl in Denver ------- Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 19:58:06 EDT From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: lathe centers Regarding making tapers by lathe turning. Can finish be achieved or is grinding required? Tapers I am familiar with seem to be ground finish. Louis ------- Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 17:14:30 -0700 From: William Abernathy Subject: Re: lathe centers Depends on the application. If you're looking for .001" accuracy and are not driving a tool with the taper in question, you can get a perfectly serviceable working finish with a good lathe bit, followed by a few grades of crocus cloth. William A. ------- Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 02:22:15 -0000 From: "flaskstoo" Subject: CQ54 Atlas taper attachment [atlas_craftsman group] I just acquired a taper attachment for my CQ54 Atlas lathe which appears to be complete. This attachment was the original equipment and attaches to the ways by bolted clamps. Another part is secured to the forward part of the cross slide but how is the end of this moveable bar affixed to the cross slide? Can someone explain this to me in an idiot proof manner. The back of the bar on this taper attachment has a pin and 3 screws but I just can't figure how it is supposed to be attached at this end. TIA. Donald ------- Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 16:47:03 -0500 From: Charle B Vincent Subject: Re: Digest Number 2038 You remove the hex head cap screw connecting the cross slide to the leadscrew and nut. This then aloows the cross slide to follow the taper attachment. The slide bar on the taper attachment has a large pin that drops into the hole in the crossslide casting. There should be three small set screws that allow you adjust the slide bar to mate with the cross-slide casting. Here is a picture: http://www.lathes.co.uk/atlas/img25.gif Charles ------- Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 20:27:59 -0400 From: "Timothy Stachlewitz" Subject: RE: Digest Number 2038 You can also contact Clausing and they will at no charge e-mail you a PDF file of the factory instruction manual. That is how I got the copy for my 700 style taper attachment. Tim ------- Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2006 18:08:54 -0800 From: William Abernathy Subject: Re: First Taper turn, and questions [atlas_craftsman] joegourlay wrote: > In the pictures section, under the "Joe Gourlay" section is my first > taper turning. It's an unintentially wicked spike. The machinist at > work gave me a foot of "pump shafting" that turns, and polishes in a > far superior manner to the mystery metal I've been using. > Some questions for you folks: > 1. The taper attachment has enough adjustment to turn an MT2 taper > for a dead center. However, the "spike" is the most obtuse point I > can get with it in my current ignorant state. How do I use the taper > attachment to turn the 60 degree cone end of the dead center? Don't use the taper attachment. Use your compound slide instead. > 2. Machinery's handbook gives the MT taper figure as something like > .599012678432059321456893 inches/foot, or something similarily > ridiculous. Two issues. First, the surface finish straight from the > tool is too coarse: i need to polish the surface. But when I do so, is > there great risk of changing the taper shape out of the workable range? If you use a round-nosed ("Finishing") bit, you should get an OK finish. Whatever tool you use, make lighter cuts as you get to the point where you want to stop. When you get within, say .010" of done, take a "spring cut," i.e., don't advance the tool into the work at all, just go over it again. This will A) make it easier to hit your mark exacty for the final cut, and B) help out with your finish. Once you get down to tidying up the results, get out the crocus cloth (essentially a wet or dry sandpaper on a cloth backing instead of paper) and rub it over the work while it's spinning at its slowest speed. Sandpaper won't remove more than .0001 at a crack, and if you use successively finer grades, you'll get a very acceptable finish, and no, you won't wreck your taper at all. > Second, this taper attachment ain't exactly...how can I put > this delicately..."high definition". I'm not sure I can, for example, > tell the difference between .57, .58", .59", adn .60" in/foot. What's > the right way to approach this with the tools I have? Ain't no way > I'm going to be talked into offsetting the tailstock... Use bluing to make the work easy to mark off. Once you have an inch long cut (measured longitudinally, not on the taper), blue the work, mark an inch from the end, and measure the work's thickness at the end and at the inch mark. You will be out, but you can adjust your taper attachment to bring it in closer. If you get the taper right before you exceed the minimum dimension, you're happy. If not, you get to chuck the work and start over. It is helpful to divide the in/ft figure by 12" to make this measurement in thousandths per inch. > 3. As long as I don't need saddle travel beyond the range of the > taper attachment ends, and as long as I have the guide bar set > parallel to the bed, is there any reason to every take it off? Can I > use the taper attachment for what I used to use the cross slide for? Inadvisable. The taper attachment is for cutting tapers. You ought to use it for that purpose (and you ought to be thankful that you have it!). You can't do a facing cut with the taper attachment on, and that's half the fun of a lathe right there. > By the way guys, thanks for all your great help thus far! Just remember to help the next guy. William A. ------- Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2006 15:14:05 -0800 From: Steven Harris <79ramchargerx~xxwavecable.com> Subject: Re: Re: First Taper turn, and questions > I can power feed either the "X" or "Y", but not both. So, how do I > manually, and consistently, drive the manual axis to achieve > a given angle? You don't; you use the compound. Which is manual. After you get the morse taper part done stick it in the head stock. Set your compound for 30 (half of what you want the angle to be). Position the tool bit so that it just takes the corner off the work. Repeat until you have the point completed. You do not use any feeds; you do this completely manually with the compound. Now the trick. If you want to power your compound, get a small cordless screwdriver (not the big 9.6 things but the little ones for under $20 bucks that take like 4 AA batteries). Make an adapter to drive your compound handwheel. There you go - power feed on the compound. Steve ------- Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2006 22:25:49 -0000 From: "azbruno" Subject: Re: First Taper turn, and questions In atlas_craftsman, "joegourlay" wrote: > but I still don't know how to get the taper > by hand--round nose tool bit or not. I can power feed either the "X" > or "Y", but not both. So, how do I manually, and consistently, drive > the manual axis to achieve a give angle? Or am I missing something? I would venture to say you're missing the compound. In case you don't have a description of the parts, the tool holder is attached to the compound which is on top of the cross slide on the carriage. The compound can be set to a desired angle and you use the crank on the compound to cut the taper. The carriage (X axis) stays put and the cross slide (Y axis) stays put while you hand crank the compound. Bruno ------- Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2006 22:37:58 -0000 From: "joegourlay" Subject: Aw, damn. Yea and verily, I am a dumb-ass. Pardon me now while I slink back into a hole somewhere... I'll report back when this thing is done. ------- NOTE TO FILE: No, Joe, that is not the case. We all have occasions when either a lack of information or too much data gets us lost in a new hobby. Some of this stuff is not intuitive or obvious until you actually have done it. We all have experienced being driven somewhere new on a complex route, and not learning how to get there until WE have to do the driving. That's where our friends can come in: offering advice and encouragement and a friggin' map! ------- Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 03:29:11 -0000 From: "speedphoto300" Subject: Re: taper ? [atlas_craftsman] >> I am in the process of building a taper attachment for my 10" Atlas >> and wondered about how long a piece can be turned before having to >> move the attachment. Thanks, Gary > You are building this, so make the taper guide as long as you > want. Mert Mert's right, of course, but as a guideline I would suggest making taper attachments about as long as the lathe swing, 10" in your case. Seems like most of the ones I've seen are about that. Joe ------- Re: All bummed out...... [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Glenn" glennx~xxentropian.com Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 11:36 am ((PST)) "Paul DeLisle" wrote: > > Well, I just lost an Ebay auction on a 10-12" taper jig.*sigh* jerdal wrote: > If you mean an Atlas taper attachment...They are NOT that fancy or > difficult to make. I have seen the one on my father-in-law's 12" >Atlas, and anyone with a mill or even a good hand with a file and saw >could make the darn thing. Clausing will send you the instructions for >the simpler one, which will give anyone with any mechanical savvy the >plans for it. Since they give it away free, I'd not feel bad about >forwarding the PDF if I can locate it. JT Don't be bummed out - some other sucker saved you a bundle o' $$$s. It's outrageous what Taper Attachments go for on eBay. They sell for more than the lathes that they fit. I second the build your own, and will be doing so when I get my mill up to snuff. The only real challenges I see are: 1) the scale - anyone have any ideas on how to produce an accurate scale in both taper per foot and degrees? and 2) precision of assembly - really a matter of careful work and maybe (in my case) paying someone to surface grind a couple of the parts. ------- Re: All bummed out...... Posted by: "n8as1x~xxaol.com" Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 3:03 pm ((PST)) the scale is only an approximation, as are the degree marks on the compound.........u will set the taper by indicator on a known taper, or by trigging the sin of the angle needed.., or by good look guess & trial /error ...even setting by known taper may require "tweaking" ...marking the attach for a specific distance tween marks, say 5 or 10 in., & measuring the distance at each mark from the bed, subtracting one from the other, will give sin numbers for an initial setting more accurately than reading a scale... it has been tempting to drill/ream for taper pins for multiple commonly needed tapers, once their truth has been proven... some starret or other ground stock wud make life simpler but i wud not be upset to see one made from bar stock ...if u r machining w/ out a surface grinder, cold rolled can look like a bannana, removing stock from one side only ...think abt how i know that ...hot rolled be safer. best wishes docn8as ------- Re: All bummed out...... Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 7:01 pm ((PST)) Measure angle, set to degrees with protractor (an accurate one) or sine bar, then mark scale... To use sine bar, a cheap set of gage blocks or an adjustable parallel and a mic. JT ------- Re: All bummed out...... Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 7:12 pm ((PST)) One obvious way is to make the taper attachment into a kind of sine bar. Put big round pins at each end of a bar of known length, and mount a cheapie micrometer barrel so it can touch the pin at the end opposite from the swivel. Once you have it mounted and set to zero taper, you mount the mike such that it reads zero off the pin. Then, you can dial in the setting in inch per foot on the mike and pull the bar over until the pin touches the mike, and lock in place. It is not possible to get inch per inch and degrees out of the same thing, and I wouldn't try, as most tapers are just a few degrees. You'd need to read degrees, minutes and maybe even seconds. Yes, having the beam perfectly straight with parallel sides is going to be critical to make it work accurately. If you had a surface plate you could actually make it straighter and more parallel than most surface grinders could do, but hand scraping is a SLOW process. Jon ------- Re: All bummed out...... Posted by: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 7:25 pm ((PST)) The easiest way, IMO, to do the scale is to set up the finished attachment sans scale; set it to some arbitrary amount, scribe a witness mark, and turn a taper on a piece of scrap. Measure the resulting taper to the best of your abilities (probably either digital protractor or a sine bar with a dial test indicator on a surface plate), then repeat for 1-3 more arbitrary measurements. Measure the distance between the witness marks, calculate the relationship between them and the actual taper produced, then step off and mark the scale at regular intervals. I've read articles on making the dials for gauges (think a pressure gauge or humidity gauge) where the gauge is subjected to two arbitrary but carefully measured values, the response of the gauge needle marked, the physical relationship derived, and the rest of the scale determined from there. Also, micrometer heads (mic barrel without any anvil or frame) are a very easy and not too expensive way of accurately generating a precise offset. Much easier than using a scale or setting with gauge blocks. Even if I didn't use a micrometer head, I'd tend to use a fine thread bolt to allow me to adjust the setting incrementally, rather than just loosening it and sliding. I can't find it right now, but there's a guy (I think it was related to the Taig lathe, either on somebody's website or on Nick Carter's site) who made a great radius (ball) turning attachment with a micrometer adjustment for the cutting tool (which controls the radius of the ball). Michael ------- Re: All bummed out...... Posted by: "jmartin957x~xxaol.com" Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 7:55 am ((PST)) > The easiest way, IMO, to do the scale, Even easier, in my opinion, is to set a dial indicator on the lathe carriage, reading against either the taper bar or the slide/toolpost. Move the carriage a fixed distance (a scale will be accurate enough, as you are cutting small tapers this way), and see the difference in the indicator readings. Just be sure to load it and work against backlash. Saves the cutting of test pieces, which can be off due to spring, tool height, etc. It's also a good way to check a taper setting before actually cutting the workpiece. It's also more accurate than setting the taper to the settings on the taper scale. John Martin ------- Re: All bummed out...... Posted by: "Steve" skadsmx~xxpeoplepc.com Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 7:01 am ((PST)) Another way of scaling a taper attachment is to figure out what distance from the pivot gives you increments that match a known scale. About 14-1/3" gives you 1/4" = 1 degree. I used that to make a measuring tool that used a 1/4-20 screw to set the angle (20 turns gives you 4 degrees). This works for small angles. You can get scales in 1/8ths or 1/10's. Find a point that would use one of those as some increment of taper per foot, cut off one or two inches of the scale and mount it to the taper attachment. Steve ------- Re: All bummed out...... Posted by: "catboat15x~xxaol.com" Date: Wed Nov 7, 2007 3:55 pm ((PST)) I made new cross slide and compound thimbles (as well as a hand wheel and thimble on my lead screw) for my old six inch Atlas. I drew the scales along with numbers complete with short lines, medium lines and long lines using a CAD program. Printed them out on the computer and adjusted the scale with the cad program until exactly the right length to wrap around my new thimbles. Coated them with clear varnish and used them for several years and when I sold that lathe (dumbest thing I ever did) the thimbles looked good as new. If I weren't so lazy I would do the same for my current 12 inch Atlas, the factory thimbles are hard to read for my old peepers. I think the same idea using a CAD program to print out a scale for a taper attachment could be done in a similar manner. John Meacham from the high deserts of Calif 12 inch Atlas lathe, mini mill, HF band saw and a rusty file. -------