------------------------------------------------------------------ This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------ Methods for holding workpieces for machining with various power tools. WORKHOLDING can refer to parts held for turning in a lathe, or milling on a mill, or milling on the cross-slide of a lathe, or use on a shaper. Or for doing an operation on the object with any other machine, or even a hand tool. The main workholder on the lathe is the chuck. Often a lathe chuck is also mounted on a mill table so that milling operations can continue without ever taking the lathe workpiece out of its chuck. Or the chuck can be the best workholding choice for a milling operation. In any case, please also read the various chuck files on this site for good ideas on chuck use. Lathe faceplates and collets are also very handy for holding parts for other machine operations, so read those files too. If you got to this file directly from my HOME PAGE, return there by using your browser's back button. BUT if you came to this file as the result of a web search engine, see many additional files on my home page Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html SAFETY WARNING BEWARE: DO NOT ASSUME that any subject matter or procedure or process is safe or correct or appropriate just because it was mentioned in a news/user group or was included in these files or on this site or on any other web site or was published in a magazine or book or video. Working with metals and machinery and chemicals and electrical equipment is inherently dangerous. Wear safety devices and clothing as appropriate. Remove watches, rings, and jewellery -- and secure or remove loose clothing -- before operating any machine. Read, understand and follow the latest operating procedures and safety instructions provided by the manufacturer of your machine or tool or product. If you do not have those most recent official instructions, acquire a copy through the manufacturer before operating or using their product. Where the company no longer exists, use the appropriate news or user group to locate an official copy. Be careful -- original instructions may not meet current safety standards. Updated safety information and operating instructions may also be available through a local club, a local professional in the trade, a local business, or an appropriate government agency. In every case, use your common sense before beginning or taking the next step; and do not proceed if you have any questions or doubts about any procedure, or the safety of any procedure. Follow all laws and codes, and employ certified or licenced professionals as required by those laws or codes. Hazardous tasks beyond your competence or expertise should also be contracted to professionals. Let's be really careful out there. (c) Copyright 2003 - 2015 Machining and Metalworking at Home The form of the collected work in this text file (including editing, additions, and notes) is copyrighted and this file is not to be reproduced by any means, including electronic, without written permission except for strictly personal use. ====================================================================== From: Les Grenz Date: Mon Nov 22, 1999 8:42am Subject: Re: workholding on sherline mill Hi Kirk - I have had excellent success mounting flat stock using an industrial strength double coated tape. I have used it on the Sherline mill table, rotary table, lathe face plate and even for larger things on my Bridgeport. I can't tell you the brand since I've had it for some time and it is not labeled. However it is like a thin clear acetate with a red backer. Les ------- From: Rich Dean Date: Mon Nov 22, 1999 4:27pm Subject: Re: workholding on sherline mill Kirk wrote: > Thanks for your response Les. I was looking thru my MSC catalog for > something like Ron Lederer suggested and came across Mitee-Bite > products. These are cam operated side holders which look interesting > except they dont seem to make anything small enough for a Sherline mill > and they are *expensive*. But they also make an adhesive product like > you described. This also seemed interesting, it was described as a > thin (.005) adhesive with peel off coatings. I appreciate your input > and wonder if this is what you are referring to. Don't think it was > too expensive. Kirk, Les, I use the Mitee Bite *Mitee Grip* paper. It is an excellent workholding device. The paper is very thin and coated with a hard wax both sides. To use, place the paper between the part and your holding surface, clamp and warm up to about 180+ deg F. Cool down to machine part then warm up to release. Clean wax off with mineral spirits while warm. Mitee Grip is sold by J&L (800-521-9520). 70° in Atlanta $ sunny..........Rich Dean ------- From: Gregory Gagarin Date: Sat Nov 27, 1999 5:49pm Subject: Re: workholding on sherline mill Kirk: As you have seen from the many helpful responses to your post, workholding is a common problem requiring a lot of personal invention. With no previous training, I started my Sherline experience a little over a year ago and have confronted your dilemma many times since. Lots of people helped (and continue to help) me so thought I would offer a couple of ideas. If clamps, the vice or a chuck won't work, think milling plate. Rarely does my work lend itself to direct attachment to the table so I end up making a CHEAP milling plate. I always try to make the plate as extendable to other uses as I can and after a while you build up quite a collection. Then you can usually find one of them that will work directly, or with slight modidication, for your new task. The big advantage to a CHEAP milling plate is that you can drill or mill into it without heartburn -- this saves a lot of creative clamping, reclamping and parallel bar maneuvers. Where to get CHEAP material for a milling plate? I think one of the best investments I have made since I began this game was an impulse Aluminum purchase from "www.mousebar.com". I knew nothing about Aluminum types or sources and happened to pick up their name on internet. They sell a 30 pound box of random Aluminum cutoffs for $100 delivered. It turned out that they get their Aluminum from a local Die manufacturer. It's "FORTAL" Aluminum,7075-T651 type (slimilar to to what Sherline calls their high priced spread used in their 3/8" negative rake carbide insert tool holder) and is beautiful stuff. It's hard (comparable to mild steel), machines easily to a mirror finish, stays bright,less sticky than 360, available in a wide assortment of sizes (only rectangular -- no rounds) and very affordable. I now am into my second box and use this material for most of my projects as well as all of my fixtures. They have a large list of individually available sizes (at a slightly higher price) and are knowledgeable and helpful -- 1-888-466-8732 (Jim). I like the stuff so much that I even turn my own rounds. Once you have a mill plate everything everyone else suggested applies. One new idea is worth considering. WR (Bill) Smith sells books and videos on several subjects -- you have probably seen his posts and comments from others on his materials. I bought two of his videos and one of his books and in that material he discusses at length the use of super glue for workholding on the mill and lathe. He makes a milling plate with groves specifically for use with super glue. Once the stock is glued down you can mill the top surface and all edges and drill anywhere without moving your stock. When complete, you heat the milling plate to break the super glue bond and clean with acetone. The milling plate is ready for future use. Bill is also very helpful on the phone and this is only one of his many tips and techniques. Hope you find this info helpful. Greg ------- From: Date: Thu Aug 10, 2000 11:35am Subject: ideas for hold-down set Hey everyone, Has anyone made their own hold-downs? I guess what I'm concerned about is using the right alloy or steel. The Sherline set is aluminum right? Is is stronger than T-6? and would T-6 be fine? Or should I just make a miniature set out of some 1/4" steel that I have? This seems like a real simple post, but I was wondering if anyone had invented some interesting hold-down setups? Ones that are not based off the Sherline models (the "L" brackets and $20 hold-down set). There are several projects I have where a jig mounted to the mill table would be the best since it would keep some delicate parts from possible flexing. Thanks, Jason ------- From: Keith Yundt Date: Thu Aug 10, 2000 2:02pm Subject: Re: ideas for hold-down set Jason, I have created a file folder in the "files" section with some pictures of some home-made clamp spinners that work with the Sherline clamps to make their use a little faster and simpler. The idea should work with any clamp, though. Keith ------- From: Ron Ginger Date: Thu Aug 10, 2000 2:21pm Subject: Re: ideas for hold-down set jasonspanglex~xxh... wrote: > Has anyone made their own hold-downs? I guess what I'm concerned > about is using the right alloy or steel. This is probably the most important area of mill work- how to hold the part. The clamps sold by Sherline are just one of many variations. Lots of work can simply be bolted to the table directly. A tooling plate is also very usefull- a scrap plate of aluminum to which the work is bolted, then the plate is bolted to the mill. This is handy when you need to mill down to an edge and dont want to cut or drill into the mills own table. Ive got several boxes of various hold downs, clamp bolts, etc. All made for one job, thrown in the drawer and maybe someday used again. So, there is no 'right' or 'wrong' material or form. Its whatever works for the job at hand. ron ------- From: Dan Gustafson Date: Thu Aug 10, 2000 1:50pm Subject: Re: ideas for hold-down set From: jasonspanglex~xxh... To: sherlinex~xxegroups.com > There are several projects I have where a jig mounted to the mill > table would be the best since it would keep some delicate parts from > possible flexing. Definately. The basic hold down set is very limiting and having a jig or fixture is necessary for a lot of projects. I recently bought one of the "Tooling Plates" from sherline, which is basically just a 1/2" x 4" x 10" piece of aluminum (6061?) that can be easily mounted to the mill table, but it has several pre drilled and threaded holes for the 10-32 screws used in the hold down set (or from the hardware store). I have done some milling on the tooling plate to customize it for my specific project and let me tell you, it can be MUCH more versatile than using the standard hold down set. You are no longer limited to holding down parts from the two slots in the mill table and in fact, with some modification you can hold down from anywhere you please. I dont know the exact price of the tooling plate as the retailer I bought it from gave me a single price quote for lots of accessories, but I think its around $30.00. In the future when I get the flycutter, I might just buy some 9/16" Aluminum and cut the surface flat myself so that I can make my own custom fixtures. That ought to be a lot cheaper. Dan ------- From: John D. Guenther Date: Fri Aug 11, 2000 3:55pm Subject: Re: ideas for hold-down set You are correct, the tooling plate makes all the difference in the world for holding work down. I beleive the plate is actually cast aluminum jig plate which is about $0.52 per square inch from Metalmart. I plan on making one that covers the full length of the table with holes for other work holding fixtures. John Guenther ------- Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 11:52:52 -0600 (CST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: G code On Thu, 4 Jan 2001 ajkdfwx~xxaol.com wrote: > For all you CNC types out there ... I was just netsurfing and ran > across this very interesting site. They sell CNC mills and lathes, but > offered some free samples of G code as well and thought it may have > some appeal to some of the members of the group that are into CNC. Try > this URL ..... http://www.positiveflow.com/frecode.htm I haven't been > bitten by the CNC bug (yet) but this has piqued my interest. Take a look at some of the other parts of that site. Pretty neat! The gallery is most impressive. I was taking a look at their list of tools: http://www.positiveflow.com/tool.htm The last one on the list is really intriguing. It's listed as a "quick change tool system" for a mill. I think the same thing could be accomplished by getting a bunch of blank arbors, drilling and reaming them to size, and permanently (or semi- permanently) mounting all of your end mills in their own individual arbors. What it would buy you is that you could essentially set all of your end mills to the same height. So if you switched from a 1/8" mill to a 1/4" mill, you wouldn't need to re-set the surface height. Right now I've been using a single arbor with a 3/8" reamed hole in it and a set screw as an end mill holder, and have been removing and replacing whenever I change mill sizes. But I've got only six end mills and nine unused blank arbors. Making individual holders for each of the mills would be pretty straight- forward, and shouldn't take more than an evening to do. Can anyone see a problem with doing this? If I mount each tool in its own holder and then set them all to the same height, it seems like it'd be a good thing... right? Let me know if you think it's a bad idea (or a good one, for that matter.) Tom ------- Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 13:06:55 +0000 From: Tony Jeffree Subject: Re: Re: Absolute Newbie Question At 12:25 15/01/01 +0000, you wrote: >How do I put in the dead center? In a chuck? That seems to defeat >the idea that the dead center is centered although I could use a dog >with it. I have a face plate (I evidently bought a lot of stuff in >1979) with a slot in it but do I need a collet or what? You could make a dead center by (for example): - Holding a short length of 1/4" rod in a collet; or - Using a chuck to hold a short length of 1/4" rod; or - Modifying a Taig "blank arbor" screwed onto the spindle nose; or - Modifying a Taig drill chuck arbor; or - Drilling a hole in a blank collet & inserting a piece of rod with Locktite to secure it. I'm sure that others will have more possibilities to add to this list... Generally, for best accuracy with a dead center, the taper on the center is re-cut in situ each time it is used, thus ensuring that the point of the center is always exactly on-center, regardless of the (in)accuracy of the device used to hold the center in position. This is less of an issue with spindle noses that have an internal Morse taper, as a well made center can be re-fitted with reasonable accuracy if witness marks on the center & spindle are used to make sure that the center is always re-fitted in the same position; however, even then, for really critical work a good machinist will always re-cut the taper after fitting the center. Hence, dead centers for use in the headstock are generally made from "soft" (i.e., not hardened) steel, so that they can be machined easily. Hardened centers are generally used only in the tailstock. Regards, Tony ------- Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 23:42:34 +0000 From: Tony Jeffree Subject: Re: Re: Absolute Newbie Question At 16:33 15/01/01 -0600, you wrote: >But doesn't the faceplate screw on the external headstock threads? thus >using collets or blank arbor is not possible as a simultaneous operation. >Seems like you have to have one that fits in taper.. I thought of making >one to screw on my drill chuck mounting arbor (for headstock). That would work. With the "blank arbor" approach, you could attach an arm to the arbor to drive the lathe dog. With the collet approach, you could make a catch plate to fit over the flats of the collet closer. >What do the rest of you do for a dead center with faceplate. The obvious way (other than the options already discussed) would be to mount a centre on the faceplate using the T-slots. >One thing I have seen is to use the three or four jaw chuck holding dead >center and have lathe dog catch on jaws of chuck. This seems like easy >solution but point on dead center will have to be "re-trued" by taking >light cut off each time it is used. Arguably, as I said in my earlier post, you need to do this anyway for accurate results. If you're not concerned about a small amount of runout, then its a lot easier just to use a collet or true up the soft jaws of the 3-jaw. Regards, Tony ------- Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 16:18:48 -0800 From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Subject: Re: Re: Absolute Newbie Question Original Message ----- From: David Robertson To: > One thing I have seen is to use the three or four jaw chuck holding dead > center and have lathe dog catch on jaws of chuck. This seems like easy > solution but point on dead center will have to be "re-trued" by taking > light cut off each time it is used. This is what they teach at the local community college. If you do true it up each time you use it then you are guaranteed total concentricity. ------- Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 21:09:21 -0600 From: "Jeffrey C. Dege" Subject: Dead Center On the subject of making a dead-center - I took a 3" piece of 3/4" rod, drilled and tapped a 3/8x24NF hole, screwed up the threading, took another piece of rod, drilled and tapped, broke the tap, bought a new tap, then took a third piece, drilled and tapped that successfully. (This was made difficult because the drill chuck wouldn't hold the 21/64" drill bit, I center drilled then stepped up to 1/4", then hand drilled from there. The chuck adapter made an easy and solid mount, for both drilling and tapping, screwed into a 2x4 wall-stud.) Then I mounted the drill chuck arbor, screwed the piece of rod onto the end, and turned it down to make the dead-center. The result looks to work very nicely with the face plate. Which wouldn't be true of a center held in a chuck, or one which threaded onto the spindle. And will require less effort to replace that the centers that involve soldering a rod through a blank collet. (And if you turn the center every time you use it, as I've seen recommended, you're going to need to make a new one with some frequency.) ------- Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 15:30:48 -0500 From: ron ginger Subject: Re: t-slot cutters Marshall Pharoah wrote: > Does anyone have any idea where to get t-slot cutters sized > for the Sherline? Smallest I can find is 1/4". Make one. A bit of drill rod, some turning and mililng, then a bit of grinding, and you've got it. If you happened to notice at Cabin Fever our demo used an 'upside down' dovetail cutter. We needed to cut a dovetail (actually the notch on the whistle) with the large diameter up. One of our guys made the cutter. ron ginger ------- Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 16:34:04 -0000 From: gartner1x~xxhome.com Subject: Crosslide problem I've a problem that I hope someone can help me with. I have a 4400 lathe that's not quite a year old. I seem to be getting some deformation of the crosslide where the tool post attaches. The sides of the T-slot seem to be pulling up and closing together (I can no longer freely slide the tool post through this area) See a photo at: http://members.home.net/gartner1/Jack/Sherline1.jpg Anyone have any idea what's going on? Am I doing something wrong or do I have a defective crosslide? When tightening the tool post I don't believe that I'm tightening it too much. Thanks, Jack ------- Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 12:16:16 -0500 From: Bradford Chaucer Subject: Re: Crosslide problem It looks like you are either tightening something that is raised off the surface in the area around the T-nut or are doing something that is causing an upward twisting torque at that point. If you were clamping a flat block that is in contact with the cross-slide at that point, you should not be getting that deformation no matter how hard you tighten the bolt. Regards, Bradford Chaucer ------- Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 17:27:10 -0000 From: gartner1x~xxhome.com Subject: Re: Crosslide problem The only thing that I've ever used on the crosslide are the Sherline tool posts. Could they cause this? Jack ------- Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 12:41:06 -0500 From: Bradford Chaucer Subject: Re: Re: Crosslide problem At 12:27 PM 2/17/2001, you wrote: >The only thing that I've ever used on the crosslide are the Sherline >tool posts. Could they cause this? Not unless something you are doing is causing it to lift on one side. Is the toolpost flat against the cross slide at the point where the slot lip is deforming?? Craig Libuse from Sherline monitors this group. You might send an email directly to him. He is quite helpful. Regards, Bradford Chaucer ------- Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 10:40:05 -0800 From: "Cliff Griffin" Subject: Re: Crosslide problem I'll bet anything that your bolts are too long, causing them to extend through the bottom of the T-nut and push the T-nut up through the top. Simply over tightening the bolts shouldn't do that, because you would be pulling two flat plates together. Check your lengths, and let us know! Keep in mind that the aluminum that you are working with on the cross slide is less that 1/8"--it's only .100" thick there. Cliff ------- Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 18:54:27 -0600 From: Custom Built Fishing Rods Subject: Re: Crosslide problem You should have been a carpenter Charlie, I think you hit the nail on the head. It looks like the post was installed without cleaning out all the chips, something you see a lot on production machines. Charlie Lear wrote: > On Sat, 17 Feb 2001 16:34:04 -0000, gartner1x~xxhome.com wrote: > >See a photo at: http://members.home.net/gartner1/Jack/Sherline1.jpg > A picture is worth a thousand words... well done! > I'd say that a) you are tightening it a bit too much, and b) what looks > like swarf is being trapped underneath the toolpost and pressed into > the surface of the cross slide, which is squeezing the metal at the top > of the t-slot and causing the very small reduction in width. >> Are you 100% sure that the T-nut is binding on the diameter, and not > underneath? > Take the nut off the toolpost and slide the nut through the slot - you > may want to take off the handwheel and shine a torch up the slot while > you do this, I've found that swarf in the T-slot can jump on top of the > nut when you slide it in, and tightening the nut jams it into the top > surface of the slot. I use a stiff bristle brush followed by a small > bit of rag to clean out the slot every time I change a tool, and I'm > still not getting everything out. > Cheers Charlie > Charlie Lear, Melbourne, Australia clearx~xxsteammachine.com > Hutt Valley Model Engineer Soc. http://steammachine.com/hvmes > Eastern Bays Little Blue Penguin Foundation: same site /penguins ------- Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 19:39:13 -0000 From: "alfred piszcz" Subject: expanding mandrels Has anyone considered using tailpipe expanders for use as an expanding mandrel? I purchased three of them in different sizes with that use in mind. These also have quite a range of adjustment. True if it is ultra precision that you need this isn't for you, but if you just need to get a OD to a specific size -- especially with aluminum or PVC pipe, this might be a low cost alternative. Some fine tuning might be necessary such as putting a center hole in the end of the mandrel to use with a live center for better stability. I purchased mine from Harbor Freight and caught a couple of them when they had the half-price sale. The fellow that needs one in a hurry could buy it at a local auto parts store but it might cost him a bit more. ------- Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 21:29:23 -0600 From: "J Tiers" Subject: Re: Re: Lathe Upgrade/WTB Mandrel Snip: >> it up. One thing I`d really like to get right away, >> for my new lathe is an expanding mandrel. I would >> need one that would hold a tube with a 1.5" ID >> Can someone suggest where to find one of these, >> or maybe someone here have one to sell? unsnip If you can stand an "arbor", J&L have expanding arbors for 1 1/2 inch at $41.30. This does not expand as much as the mandrel, but may do you OK if ID is close to 1.5". J&L part ARB-01500B Jerry ------- Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 08:01:44 -0800 From: James Eckman Subject: Re: Accessories for the Taig Mill >From: "David Robertson" >Could you elaborate...what are spherical washers and what are they for? Sure, they are washers with bearing surfaces that are not flat. If you cut them in half and traced the shape that the bisected part, you would see that the shape is part of a circle. There is a male part and a female part. They are used as spacers when your clamping uneven parts. the two halfs slide against each other so that the clamping surface and the nut don't have to be parallel. Nicholas Carter >> For studs I just whacked up a length of 1/4-20 threaded rod into convenient lengths. For the pressures that you clamp small stuff with, hardware grade fasteners seem adequate. For t-nuts I bought a length of 1/2"x1/4" CRS, whacked it up into 3/4" lengths and tapped 1/4"-20 << I've some of those tapped 10-32. I use hardware store nuts, a good grade though... One advantage of making your own studs instead of using allthread is that if you have one very short end as shown, you can't screw it into the table and possibly damage it. Most of the stuff is made from shop scraps or CRS which is cheap, none of the projects took over a day's worth of time. For example, the washers took about the following time: Grind form tools, 15 minutes using ball as a guage Set up lathe with 2 tools, drill and stops set, 10 minutes Each part, 30 seconds or so... Deburring, etc. 30 seconds or so... The studs are almost as fast, maybe a 2-3 of minutes each. Hardware store studs in 1/4-20 are over a buck a piece! Jim ------- Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 05:47:39 -0700 From: James Eckman Subject: Re: taig vise [APPLIES TO ANY NON-MILLING VISE] > From: airwardenx~xxhome.com > I am trying to use the vise that came with my mill and I cannot > get it to quit pushing the piece of aluminum I am clamping in it > up. Is there some trick to using this vise so your work will stay > flat to the bottom? 1. Gently hammer it in with a rubber/leather mallet. 2. Try putting a piece of round rod horizontally behind the workpiece like this, possibly performing option 1 on it!: rod-> back jaw|O|workpiece|front jaw screw ////////////| | bottom | | _____________ Pardon the crude graphics... Yours, Jim Eckman -------- Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 10:42:33 -0700 From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Subject: Re: taig vise This is why I generally recommend a "toolmakers screwless" vise for the Taig mill. They are available from ENCO on sale for between $40-$70 depending. The problem with the Taig style vise, and this applies to all vises of this type, no matter how well made or expensive, is that the geometry of the forces involved will always seek to take up any play by raising the moveable jaw. The can be controlled, as others say, by whacking with a dead blow hammer (so as to control rebound), tightening up bearing surfaces, or using aides, such as the round rod mentioned, or my favorite aide, the shaper hold down. The shaper hold down is a piece of bar with one curved edge and another almost knife edge. It is placed against the moveable jaw and the work. As the jaw rises, the holddown pivots about it's axis, thus pushing down on the work. They can be used singly or in pairs and are great for thin work held on parallels. See our web pages http://www.casco.net/~felice ------- Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 03:13:14 -0400 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: mini vise The screwless vise was reprinted in book two of Rudy's reprints. I scaled it up a tad for my mill drill, scaling it down wouldn't be much of a problem, although I'd stick with 5/8 or perhaps 1/2 inch thick stock as a minimum for the fixed jaw. The moving jaw would likely work out well if 3/4 inch square, using 1/2 inch drill rod for the two shafts. I suppose 10-24 would work for the screw, although I'd be inclined to use 1/4-28. Long 1/4 inch cap screws are hard to find in quantity one, a good hardware store may have them. My local good hardware store had long enough cap screws in stainless, the "normal" cap screws didn't come long enough. I used drill rod for both of the shafts, this saved me turning down CRS and allowed me to bore to a tighter tolerance. This isn't critical for accuracy, I just like a nice tool to have no rattling fits, even where they don't matter. I may be off base, but I think Rudy made his vise for a Sherline mill, so perhaps no modification would be required. Not having a benchtop mill, I can't comment on this with any certaintly. You can buy these small vises fairly inexpensively, but if you enjoy toolmaking, or have more time than money, you can certainly make a very accurate vise for little cost in material. If you have never done work to better than a thou (on purpose ;-) ), making such a vise will give you good practice at doing work in order for accuracy rather than for speed, in keeping track of reference surfaces, and in picking up edges. Good skills to aquire. My finished vise measures square to a tad under 2 tenths all over. Not having a surface grinder, some surfaces got lapped, filed, or scraped as needed. Jaw faces were lapped, then they were used as the reference surface for milling tongues and slots. The tops of the rails were filed, swept over on a surface plate, and scraped. Once flat to a tenth, I called it good enough! The total job took about 12 hours, a repeat could likely be done in about 6 hours. The vise was one of my learning projects, so I did some things out of order, made some dumb goofs, and did some things in harder ways than I had to. The usual learning sorts of mistakes. Making the base as perfectly square as you can, and getting the fixed jaw truly square to the base is worth the time. For many applications, you can clamp up the vise using a square on the table front edge and skip the indicating in step. Doing this on my mill gets the fixed jaw true to better than a thou per four inches. This assumes the mill table front is parallel to the table travel, something to verify in any event. You can also install a key to locate the table, as is often recommended. I don't like this as it interferes with clamping the vise at an angle, something I do fairly often. Having to stop and remove a key is just one more thing to do, parts to keep track of, and threaded holes to keep clean. Stan ------- From: "Bill Rutiser" Date: Thu Aug 2, 2001 9:42 pm Subject: Re: [sherline] Wide vise? Randy asked, >Related question--is there a technique for preventing the pull-down bar >from turning sideways in the slot? For some reason, every time I try to >adjust the vise that happens, and I have to poke and prod with wires, >nails, dental picks or whatever is handy at the time to try to realign >it with the slot. Is the center disk of your bar concentric with the ends? It appears to me from illustrations in the Sherline documents, that there is a newer style with the disk ecentric so that some it is always in the slot. One could make a new bar or buy one from Sherline. What I did, and it seems to work, is to cut two strips of Al from a soda can. These are about the width of the bar's center disk. They each have a hole at one end that goes over the bar ends. The strips are bent into an ell so that the short leg is parallel to the bar. The two stips overlap opposite the threaded hole in the disk. The bent end of the strips are notched to fit around the screw. Its a little fiddly to assemble but the bar goes into the vise body with the strips pointed up. The screw is installed thru the body, thru the notches in the strip, and then threaded into the disk. Even with the screw loosened so that the disk is touches table, the strips keep the bar aligned accross the slot. BTW-- Check the length of the allen head screw. Mine was long enough that it sometimes gouged the table. It needed shortening by one thread or so. Bill Rutiser Gaithersburg, MD ------- From: "Rich D." Date: Thu Aug 2, 2001 10:06 pm Subject: Re: [sherline] Wide vise? Randy, I use two vices side by side frequently, tho usually separated. There are all steel toolmakers vices similar to the Sh. that have a spring device that holds the screw up to help prevent the "nut" from rotating. See the Enco sale ad for model (flyer no)505-2144. Has clamp down slots on 4 sides, very smooth and all ground. Nice. RichD ------- From: "Marcus & Eva" Date: Thu Aug 2, 2001 11:01 pm Subject: Re: [sherline] Wide vise? Hi Randy: I'm not sure what your application is, but I run lots of setups with 2 vises side by side. Best way to set them up quickly is to clamp a single parallel with both vises ( make sure the parallel sticks up above the vise jaws a bit) and then clock in the parallel with an indicator in the spindle. If you are concerned about mismatch in the height of the vise beds, you have 3 choices: 1) take a whisker off the underside of the high vise until it matches the low vise. 2) Make a set of shim blocks for both vises (or a single sheet of shimstock if the mismatch is more than 0.005") 3) Make a set of soft sacrificial jaws that bolt onto each vise jaw and mill a step to nest your parts in. I wouldn't bother trying to make a single fixed or floating jaw for both vises. As far as your problem with the pull down bar, this is a weakness of that particular design. Best solution I have seen for it is to poke a bunch of cross holes into the vise base, and make a new nut by cross drilling and tapping a round rod. That way you can get at the nut from the side of the vise, even when the vise is bolted to a table. Cheers Marcus ------- From: "Craig Libuse" Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 11:47 am Subject: Re: [sherline] Wide vise? Randy, I haven't experienced the problems you mention, but perhaps your vise is not made properly. If you'd like to return it (To Attn: Luis) for inspection, we'd be glad to make sure it is right and return it to you at no charge (other than postage). As to matching an old vise with the new one, I suspect it could be done although the tension on each half might vary if the pull-down angle weren't exactly the same. I think the center dimension of each of the positions is the same, but with the diameters being different, the angle of the pull-down screw might be different. Even so, as I said, that might not make a difference in this application. Would one set of very beefy jaws on a single vise provide enough holding power for your application? Anyone else tried this? I'll be back August 20th. Craig Libuse Sherline Products ------- From: Randy Gordon-Gilmore Date: Sat Aug 4, 2001 10:30 pm Subject: Re: [sherline] Wide vise? Thanks for the suggestions, Bill. 8/2/01 Bill Rutiser wrote: >Is the center disk of your bar concentric with the ends? It appears Yes, it is. The vise is about 4 years old. >BTW-- Check the length of the allen head screw. Mine was long I use a couple of different screws with the vise, per Sherline's instruction sheet. I haven't had any problems with gouging the table yet--with the screw, at least! :-P Best regards, Randy ------- From: "Marcus & Eva" Date: Sun Aug 5, 2001 1:12 pm Subject: Re: [sherline] Wide vise? Hi Randy: Have you considered taking a whisker off BOTH vises? This would match their heights within the flatness tolerance of the mill. Alternatively, if you can bear to part with them for a bit, and you are willing to spend for the shipping, I could surface grind them for you. Only problem is that I'm up in Canada; you may have a bit of a hassle at the border. Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 11:27:06 EDT From: WRSmith2x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Newbie Question of the Day <> Hi Bruce: Here is a simple solution to your problem. Mount a 1/2" diameter brass rod in an aluminum disk and allow it to extend enough to be gripped in a 3-jaw chuck. Put this in the lathe, face it and turn to the desired diameter. Then, using a round nose tool of about 3/16" width, make plunge cuts into the face of the aluminum disk, leaving lands of about 1/4" between the plunge cuts. Clean the disk and the object to be turned with acetone. Apply super glue sparingly to the lands of the aluminum disk. Place the object to be turned against the super glue coated arbor and hold for about 10-seconds. Do the required machining and then heat the arbor with a torch to break the bond. Do not heat hot enough to form a gas. The object will not properly bond to you arbor without the plunge cuts. They allow room for the excess super glue and the required air to create the needed bond. When cool, wash with acetone to remove the residual super glue. TTYL W. R. (Bill) Smith ------- Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 10:17:53 -0500 From: "Bad Brad" Subject: Re: Newbie Question of the Day These are just suggestions. Any method used to end up with a finished product is the correct method. everybody has different views, experience and equipment. It's what you can do with what you have and maximizing even with major limitaions that will make a good machinist. One alternative is to use a piece of 1/2" bar stock, face one end off, add any detail to the part. Next, very carefully part off so that you end up with the 1/8" thickness, using proper speed and feed. A little cutting fluid will give you a nice finish. To do the hole circle a rotary table works best. But if one isn't available you can use a center dril and place a dimple in the center of the part just before parting off the piece. You can use this dimple for a ref. point for scribing a circle for locating the holes. Using some trig. the hole spacing can be calculated. Clamp the part and drill a way. FBA ------- Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 19:42:14 -0400 From: ron ginger Subject: Re: Newbie Question of the Day A casting is not likely to be glued well enough to machine. The glue arbors W.R. Smith uses are for very smooth and flat items like brass clock wheels. A cast aluminum head is not going to glue. You will need to fit it into the 3 or 4 jaw chuck very carefully, with just enough extended to make a clean facing off cut. The outside of the head should be left 'as cast'. Very light and careful cuts are needed. Many guys start their first model from a casting kit, but I suggest first building a few models from bar stock. Casting can be very hard to handle and setup. Bar stock is nice and uniform, can usually be clamped or chucked well, and if you scerw up its cheap to make a new part. It can ruin your whole day to ruin a casting! ron ginger ------- Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 20:53:20 -0400 From: Jim Ash Subject: Re: Re: Newbie Question of the Day I've got a few pounds of a bismuth alloy called Cerrobend. It's known to chemists as Wood's metal. It melts at 158 degrees F. It looks and feels a bit like lead. Take your part and put it face down in a small cylindrical cup. Heat the Cerrobend to melting and pour it in the cup. When it cools, it should have a nice grip on the piece, even thin stuff. Chuck up the Cerrobend with the part in it and machine what you need. When you're done, pour hot water on it and the part will release from the block. Save the Cerrobend for the next time. Be careful not to let the work get too hot during the machining steps, although it will sink some heat. This method works well for irregularly-shaped parts also. Cerrobend isn't cheap (maybe $20 / lb) but for Sherline-sized work, a pound should more than suffice for a long time. Jim Ash ------- Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 07:02:35 -0400 From: "Dick Blaney" Subject: Re: RE: Newbie Question of the Day Cerrobend [CERROSAFE] is available at Brownells, Inc. Try here: http://www.brownells.com/Index.html It's used by gunsmiths to make casts of rifle chambers. Dick ------- Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 16:49:56 -0000 From: n2562001x~xxyahoo.com Subject: Re: Newbie Question of the Day Bruce: Having built a fair number of models I think You will find Ron Ginger`s comment`s on target. If you do not wish to purchase Bismuth you can also use wax. I generally use a copper or steel pipe cap as a cup and then melt and pour in wax around the part. For most parts it will hold almost as well as bismuth and is a little easier to deal with. The copper and steel pipe caps can be put in the 3 or 4 jaw chuck. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 11:36:25 -0400 From: Al Schoepp Subject: engraving I've got a Taig mill which I've just converted to cnc. I now find that I need to engrave some aluminum panels and I've got a question. I'm not sure if I'll be able to hold the thin panel absolutely flat so I think that using a v-tip cutter for the engraving any differences will be quite noticeable. Do the commercial engraving spindles have spring loaded cutters that will only penetrate the metal a given distance or do they have to make sure what they are cutting is absolutely flat? Does anyone have a drawing for a spring loaded engraving cutter holder that would work with the Taig? I'm not sure if I'm asking the right questions but would appreciate some advice. Al ------- Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 17:23:21 +0100 From: Tony Jeffree Subject: Re: engraving The commercial engraving machines certainly do use the kind of spring loaded holder that you describe - however, I haven't seen one made for/used in the Taig (though others may have?). I have done a bit of engraving on my Taig CNC mill (see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/taigtools/files/Tony%20Je ffree%27s%20Files/Engraving.jpg and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/taigtools/files/Tony%20Je ffree%27s%20Files/Final.jpg for the most complex example to date), and have tried a variety of techniques for holding thin metals. The one that has worked best for me is to hold the plate down onto some kind of baseboard (sometimes straight onto the mill table) with heavy duty double sided tape (carpet laying tape, for example), and for critical stuff, to skim the top few thou off the plate before engraving it so that the surface is nice & flat. The one thing you have to be careful of with this approach is that the cutting operations generate heat, which in turn softens the adhesive. I have also experimented with hot melt glue guns, and other adhesives - such as superglue - might be pressed into service too - however, the same warning applies! Heating the plate is, of course, the best way to remove it from the glue after machining. With brass/copper, a useful option can be to soft solder the plate onto a thicker backing plate, do the engraving, then melt the solder to remove it afterwards. This can be useful with sheet material that hasn't been annealed, as skimming the surface (or even just engraving a significant percentage of the surface) can result in the plate warping as it is engraved, and with sufficient force to break free of double sided tape or glue. If you're likely to do a lot of this kind of work, it might be worth investing in (or possibly making?) a small vacuum table. Regards, Tony ------- Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 09:23:33 -0700 From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Subject: Re: engraving You might want to try making a vacuuum chuck, which will suck the work flat. This of course makes more work for you and needs a vacuum pump. The other option is double sided tape (never use oil coolant with that! Don't ask me how I know....) See our web pages http://www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 11:50:44 -0500 (CDT) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: engraving Tony, any ideas about making a spring-loaded engraving bit holder? After having dug a v-tip tool in a couple of times because of unflat-ness, I wouldn't mind spending a little time making a better mousetrap. Don't know about anyone else, but anywhere I go, I wind up looking at things and thinking to myself, "How did they make that?" or "How could I use that in my shop?" or "Now THAT's a neat trick!" The last time I was in a pet store, I stood there watching while some people got some tags made for their dog. (They must've thought I was nuts...) The way those machines grab the part is to put the part to be engraved inside a bezel, and press the part up from behind: ------- Part ------- \ | / Bezel \ | / +--- V ---+ | ---------------- | -------+ ---------------- +------- +--------------+ | | | Piston | The lip on the bezel is presumably flat and true, so once the part is pressed up against it, it's flat across the face, provided it's reasonably rigid (anodized aluminum should be) and reasonably flat (tags are only about 1" across, so you don't get much warpage on that scale. If I ever wind up making a large number of engraved parts about that size, I'd proably make a jig like this. 'Till then, superglue and double-sticky tape sound pretty good! One word of caution about using MDF as a backing: Unless you're working in an environmentally controlled area, MDF will warp. My shop is outside in a small shed, where temperatures vary wildly, and humidity can go from 90% down to 40% in twelve hours. Cut your MDF flat, mount the part, engrave it, and unmount it. Don't mount the part, leave it for a couple of days, and assume it's still flat. (Yeah, don't ask me how I know this.) Tom ------- Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 10:50:59 -0500 From: "Rich D." Subject: Re: Wide vise ? Daniel Munoz wrote: > Hi guys, > I have a problem and would like some advise from you. > I need to do repetitive cutting task on the mill, typically cutting a > groove in a small section (1/4" x 1/4") wood bar, or using a saw blade > to slice a large piece in thin (but long) stock. The problem I have is > to clamp it firmly, but easily and repetitively. > When I try to clamp it on the Sherline vise, it is obviously not wide > enough, the wood bar (about 5" long) bend when the extremities are > machined. I cannot see how to clamp it easily (well, easily for me at > least!) on the table mill, because the bar is thin and the clamps would > be on the way of the mill cutter. > > Is there some sort of wide vise design that exist, small enough not to > be on the way of the mill cutter or saw, but wide enough to secure a > long bar of flexible material for cutting ? > I could try to build something specific for that task, but I have no > idea what is the best design for this kind of problem. > > For now, I cut the groove for a small portion (a little larger than the > Sherline vise jaws) with some spacers under for the wood piece to be as > high as possible in the jaws while staying horizontal, then I slide > manually the wood piece and continue the cutting on the new portion. But > it's a long task to do, and of course I loose accuracy between the > sections machined. Thanks for your advice. Daniel Daniel: I use as many as 3 vises clamped down side by side all perfectly lined up and squared. This allows long pieces or 3 seperate pieces to be held. The clamps between vises is a narrow 2 hole plate just wide enough to allow the 10-32 cap head screws to fit in. and sit on the vice grooves. RichD ------- Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 01:09:33 -0000 From: "iamstarvin" Subject: Re: Mounting items to a faceplate -- In sherlinex~xxy..., "Kevin P. Martin" wrote: > Having tried the super-glue trick once and failed, I'm 0 for 1 on the > "gluing workpieces" technique. > Even for thicker-walled items, crushing is not the only problem: the > three- (or four-) lobed out-of-round caused by the jaw pressure will > become duplicated in reverse when you do more turning, that is, the > finished part will have high spots on the o.d. > lined up with where the jaws were squeezing the walls in. > You might consider turning the I.D. first, then making a close-fitting > plug that gives the jaws a backing to tighten against. The closer > the fit (provided you can insert and > remove it easily enough!) the better this will work.-Kevin Kevin: I have used super glue many times, I have a sherline mill and a Logan lathe I make fly fishing reels and the first time I used super glue I pushed it hard making .035" boring cuts (removing .070"/pass) I have turned, faced and bored and never have had a failure. The secret seems to be that you need to cut grooves for the glue. I cut .020- .025" wide grooves maybe .020-.030" deep. When i'm finished, a rap with a fiber mallet and the work pops off. Don't give up it has a lot of applications. If you use a 2" wide piece of stock with a morse taper beat in you can face the arbor off as needed. Great tool steve ------- Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 16:59:08 -0800 From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Subject: Re: T slot manufacture [taigtools group] >> I know I can machine a t-Slot from a block of stock (using a slot cutter, and then a disc cutter), but I don't have a mill yet, and I want to make the t slot for a milling setup on my lathe. Other than the risk of inaccuracies, and sheer hard work, is there any reason why I can't build up a T slot using strips of stock bolted together? Is the T slot stock a common extrusion you can buy? I was considering buying a spare compound to make my milling gidget, but I'll still need a T slot to mount to, and I figure most of my work will be in the orthogonal planes for the immediate future. If I can get my T slots sorted out I hope to build the milling attachment from scratch (including a vise, and some holddowns) and then progress to angles etc as required. One of these day I'll get a digital camera up and running so you can see the mess i make with/for my Taig.. It's so much a part of the family, all it needs is a name. Des << You can definitely build up a t-slot table, the book that Lindsay's offers on building your own mill, not the Gingery one, but the other author, does it with CRS. Basically it will be as accurate as the stock you use, so if you use ground stock it should be pretty good. There are also manufacturers of slotted aluminum extrusion, 80/20, Bosch that have some interesting uses. I find it from time to time at the scrap yard. Finally a call to Taig might net an unmachined end of their extrusion. See our web pages http://www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 20:21:31 -0500 From: "James D. Lawlor" Subject: T-slots or T-tracks Try a vendor that caters to woodworkers. Here in the U.S., several companies sell aluminum T-track stock. Typical dimensions are 3/4" wide by 3/8 " high, to take a 1/4-20 bolt. Woodworkers use the slots to hold clamps for drilling or routing stock. James Lawlor ------- Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 20:50:58 +0200 From: Douglas Burkett Subject: Re: Enco Vise with Sherline Mill >> I've noticed that Enco is offering a "fine quality" precision screwless vise for $39.99 The Jaw is 2 x 1 with an opening of 2 1/2 inches. Overall length is 5 1/2 inches. Is anyone using this vise with a Sherline mill? If so, what are your experiences with it? How decent is "fine quality" in the context of this vise? Thanks, Carol & Jerry Jankura Strongsville, Ohio << I just received the av428-9010 4"TOOLMAKER VISE SCREWLESS 7"OAL $49.99 in the mail, and if the one on sale is like this one it is certainly worth it. The one I have is a substantial vise compared to the one Sherline sells. Of course that comes with the problem of the vise taking up quite a bit of room. The vise has no finish where the Sherline does. So I suspect that you will need to pay more attention to proper care. I clamped it down and ran an indicator across the fixed jaw, both the top and face. Less than a thousandth of change across the entire jaw. Which is less than the tolerance of the setup. I'm happy with the one I received. Doug -------- Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 20:54:54 -0400 From: "Marshall Pharoah" Subject: RE: Enco Vise with Sherline Mill If this is the smallest of the three or four sizes they have, then I have one. The quality is quite good. Problems I found are: Be careful that the angle of the screw does not get too steep, or you will scar the table of the mill. This is one reason why I made a plate to hold mine, the other reason is the plate has a lip, so the vise goes on almost perfectly square each time. There is more material on the fixed jaw of the vise than on the Sherline. I continually end up inserting and removing the riser block to compensate for this. For this reason only, I don't recommend it for the Sherline mill. If you don't mind mounting it traverse, then it's fine. Marshall ------- Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 13:00:26 -0700 From: Wm. Dubin Subject: Re: sherline vise Yasmiin, Actually, I recently read (in an English model eng. magazine) about using two vices' at once, and, as I mill long pieces A LOT it seemed like an interesting thing to try, so I ordered a 2nd vice from Sherline. The way I set it up, was with one vice mounted so that its left hand corner was at the edge of the mill's X axis, which allowed me to do work right up to the edge of the vice. The second vice was set parallel to it, but in from the right hand edge by about 1.5 inches. Set this way, a 6" long parallel could be placed in both vices's at the same time, which made setting them at 90 degree's to the bed, and 100% parallel to each other very easy (using a DTI ). When I put stock across both vices's, I use parallels UNDER the stock... that way I relate to the bed and not the vices's height. So far, this system has proven out very well, its far easier to set up than a single vice, and if necessary, the right hand vice can be removed, leaving most of the bed free for another set-up, and re-aligning this vice on re-instillation is very easy, as the left hand vice gives you instant location. I highly recommed this set up... only wish I had known about it long ago. Wm. ------- Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 22:48:07 -0000 From: "keithbaddock" Subject: Re: Another clamp question --- In sherlinex~xxy..., "Al Lenz" wrote: > Was cutting a set of wing ribs out of 1/8 balsa sheet and using > double sided tape to hold down the stock, (along with a couple of > holes and alignment pins). Works OK, but does take some time to > peel up the tape when it loses it's 'sticky'. Thought about making > some spring clamps maybe out of wooden clothespins or such. > How do you guys do it? thanks al Drill two holes through each rib and use 10-32 stud, t-nut at nut to clamp it down. If 10-32 too big, use 4-40 allthread and make some custom t-nuts to suit. Typical way of holding them for sanding too, but normally with a plywood template on each side of the balsa stock. Don't forget the sacrifical piece at the bottom so you don't cut into the table! Keith ------- Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 12:22:55 -0500 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: 5C SPIN INDEX FIXTURE atlas101a wrote: >>> Just bought a 5C spin index fixture on eBay. It holds 5C collets and can be indexed. It was not very expensive and it looks like it might be used for gear cutting. Anybody experience with such an attachment? I know it is really meant for grinding operations and not milling. Anybody? If it is really a bad idea it has to be degraded to a conversation piece. Piet Jan <<< Hi Piet: I use one all the time on the mill. You can position a shaft to any whole degree easily. I use mine to mill flats, hexes, make reamers, just about anything that I do to a round bit of shaft (up to 1 1/16 inch) in the mill. These are very useful little gadgets :-) 5C collets are also available in hex and square style if you happen to need such things, they are a bit more expensive, but can be handy. You can cut gears with them as well, although only ones that can be indexed by whole degrees. If you have a lot of gear cutting to do, a dividing head may be a better choice, or a shop made indexer that can take plates you drill with the appropriate number of holes as is often done by clockmakers. Cheers, Stan ------- Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 10:24:36 -0800 From: Wm. Dubin Subject: Re: Why Parallels - was (Newbie) What accessories for starters with a mill? Ned: Parallels do several things, amongst them, raising the work above the table. The reason I use two large ones when using both vises, is because the inside bottom area of the vise was never meant to be exactly parallel to the milling table. It does a good job of this, but depending on the amount of accuracy you require, if you raise the stock above this, then when you clamp your vise on the stock, it will be as parallel to your milling table as possible. "Good" means the best... best, 99% of the time, means the most expensive (Starrett). Yes, you can get along just fine with Harbor Freight, but when the time comes to be "spot on", spend the money for the very best. That way you can screw up and be only half off... screw up with the cheapies and you'll be VERY off. It all depends on what you (and your work) require. As to how useful are parallels, well, I use them at least 85% of the time I am on the mill. The only one's I've not gotten full use from are a set of "wavy" parallel's.... Add to this list, a "good" set of 1-2-3 blocks... HTH. Wm. ------- Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 11:29:24 -0500 From: "Ned Carey" Subject: flycutting flat brass stock I am making a small fixture using K&S 1/6 thick by 2" wide flat brass. The brass isn't exactly flat, it has a slight bow to it. I've thought about flycutting it. My concern is two fold. First since this is already thin, might flycutting add to the warpage by releasing stresses in the material? Secondly, How do I hold it? Since the clamps hold the stock from the top they will get in the way of the flycutter. Can I clamp it to the mill table and move the clamps around as I flycut different parts of the sheet. I just got my mill and love it. I have yet to use the flycutter. Thanks, Ned ------- Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 09:00:30 -0800 From: Wm. Dubin Subject: Re: flycutting flat brass stock Ned: Forget the mill, heat the metal gently, and wearing gloves bend it back by hand. Wm. ------- Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 09:35:01 -0800 From: "Orrin B. Iseminger" Subject: Re: flycutting flat brass stock I'll go along with Wm. Dubin's answer to your problem. That said, if you ever need to machine thin stock in the future, there are at least two ways you can do it: 1.) Use 3M double-stick adhesive tape (the thin stuff, not the foam variety) to hold your workpiece flat. When done machining, release it by heating with a heat gun or hair dryer. Be careful if you use a heat gun. They get *very* hot and can cause damage. I use it frequently and it has never let me down. 2.) Use "instant" type glue (crazy glue). I've never tried it, but WR Smith, a well-known clockmaker, recommends it. He uses heat to release it, afterwards. Smith uses a fixture to hold the part being machined. In order to supply the air that the glue needs for curing, he machines shallow grooves in the fixture every 3/16" or so. Orrin Orrin B. Iseminger Colton, Washington, USA http://users.moscow.com/oiseming/lc_ant_p/index.htm ------- Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 04:16:33 -0000 From: "timgoldstein " Subject: Re: Securing a piece to be milled Double sided tape can work great if you have enough surface area and the part does not get hot (should not be a problem with heat on the fiberglass). You also want to aviod cutting into the tape as it will gum up the cutter. You can also use screws around the outside edge of the part into the sacraficial piece. You just have to be careful to use enough to not distort the piece. I have used a combination of both methods many times. Be warned that machining fiberglass will ruin your cutter very fast unless you are using carbide. Even then the bit will wear very quickly compared to cutting aluminum. Tim [Denver CO] ------- Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 22:04:17 -0000 From: "Ted Walls" Subject: Re: flycutting flat brass stock If you use 3M double sided tape you can release the brass by soaking in a little kerosene or paraffin. ------- Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:58:45 -0800 From: "Orrin B. Iseminger" Subject: Re: flycutting flat brass stock That was what I used the first time I used double-stick tape for holding thin sheets of brass. After soaking it--completely submerged--in kerosene for a day, the sheets were still stuck. It seems to take a very long time for kerosene to soak across half the width of tape. I finally gave up on the kerosene and used a hot air gun. I had the brass unstuck in a matter of minutes. You can see the result at: http://users.moscow.com/oiseming/lc_ant_p/pic_Prj1.htm Construction of the blade guard is still underway. Regards, Orrin ------- Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 08:34:22 +0000 From: Steve Blackmore Subject: Re: Small Vises [TAIG GROUP] >Hi all, I'm looking for a decent small vise for holding 1 or 2 >inch long, 1 mm to 2 mm thick material for engraving. Does anyone >know of a decent source? I'd like to fixture 4 on a plate for >multiple part engraving. The vise that came with the mill is >entertaining at best! I guess I'll be a needing small parallels >to go with them. If it's flat parts don't use a vice. Make/Buy an adjustable or fixed "grid" plate. Aluminium plate is best - see http://us.spillage.net/ but MDF will do fine. You can use Mitee-Bite type clamps or screws to hold down your stock. MDF (Medium Density Fibreboard) is great for jig plates - it will take a thread - if you want super accuracy skim the surface with a fly cutter then varnish with epoxy resin - you can then use coolant! There's a photo of an engraving job on my website that will explain what I mean. See http://www.pilotltd.net/taig.htm Steve Blackmore ------- Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 17:24:58 -0000 From: "whirlingdervish1950 " Subject: Re: Small Vises ~~~~>> My suggestion would be that small vise called "super glue" I use it for many different things.... one drop will hold your material until your done... multiple drops and accurate placement of multiple materials is no problem at all. Keep it Simple... After work is done, either a very slight prying or any product that disolves super glue will do to remove your engravings. Hope that Helps, Phil ------- Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 21:55:35 -0000 From: "notinsync10 " Subject: Can't figure it out..... Being about dozen T-nuts short of a competent machinist, I'm having a devil of a time devising a means to round out a disk roughly the size of a nickle without first mounting it on a center shaft. I can't start anew since the workpiece in question is pre-manufactured and would take a month of Sundays to reproduce. Does anyone know how this is done or if it can be done? TIA, J.B. Neiswander ------- Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 22:25:09 -0000 From: "n2562001 " Subject: Re: Can't figure it out..... J.B. If I understand this correctly you want the outside of the disk to be as round as possible. If so cut another disc the size you would like the first one to be. Then clamp the two together and touch up the first disk with a file using the second as a guide. That is if there is no possible way to glue or mount it to a shaft. Jerry Kieffer -------- Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 17:33:55 -0600 From: Anthony Parisi Subject: Re: Can't figure it out..... Hi JB: I'd turn an aluminum rod to the diameter, then super glue the disk to the rod., being as sure as you can that the edge is aligned. Then take light cuts...turn the disk. (I wouldn't use accelerator as general wisdom is that accelerator weakens the joint.) A bit of heat from a torch or heat gun separates the joint. Cleaner gets rid of the old Ca glue. Ventilate when you're heating... Tony ------- Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 16:19:11 -0800 From: Alan Marconett KM6VV Subject: Re: Can't figure it out..... Hi JB, Center it on a rotary table, and clamp one side. Mill the edge you can access. Then add a second clamp, and remove the first. Mill the remainder. Trick is to keep it clamped while switching clamps. It might also be possible to glue it down with "super glue", and heat it up to release it. This assumes the glue is OK to use on the part. HTH Alan KM6VV ------- Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 20:22:30 -0500 From: "Bill Rutiser" Subject: Re: Can't figure it out..... Double sided carpet tape is sometimes helpful for this sort of thing. Also consider applying pressure to a small pad with a tailstock center. Take light cuts. ------- Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 22:29:16 EST From: tmwade4x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Thread cutting I'm building an alignment plate to hold a cast iron angle plate. I'm going to drill through the plate, then thread it for 1/4" - 20 bolts, then cut the heads off the bolts. The bolts will be screwed in from the bottom, of course. I also plan to put in several holes in one end, each offset by about .002" from the next. My plate is a 4" x 10" x 1" block of CRS. A bit of overkill, but it was free. Tom Wade Hope, Indiana ------- Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 12:47:09 -0000 From: "Bill" Subject: Holding Cylinder on rotary head faceplate I need to hold some PVC pipe on the face plate of the rotary head on the Taig. The pipe will vary from 1.3" to 3" dia. and up to 3" long. Any suggestions? It is too big for the 3jaw chuck. Many thanks in advance. Bill ------- Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 13:31:58 -0400 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Holding Cylinder on rotary head faceplate Hi Bill; Can you use the three jaw and cut the soft jaws to allow you to use it inner jaw style? You might get away with mounting some angles (as in the angles sold at the hardware store for joining wood at corners) to the table, then hold the tube to the angles with one or more hose clamps. Setting things up for concentricity could be a bit weird. You could also turn snug plugs for the tube, mount the plug to the table and press the tube down onto the plug. A bit of squeeze with a hose clamp might stiffen it a bit. Use long studs and a clamp bar across the tube to hold it down if you are not doing something that requires access to the entire end of the pipe. If you have LOTS of these to do, make expanding mandrels to mount on the table. Lots of work, but quick to use with minimal setup once you have them made. Make a special vise with V jaws out of some half inch plate or maple and mount that to the rotary table. Cheers, Stan ------- Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 13:26:36 -0700 From: Don Rogers Subject: Re: Holding Cylnder One thing to keep in mind is the distortion of the PVC when using a chuck. Stan's ideas of expanding mandrel or snug pugs sound like the best solution and would minimize any distortion of the PVC pipe. You might try making wood plugs and then saw them almost in half and use a couple short, large diameter wood screws as wedges to spread the plug for a tighter fit. Don ------- Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 13:01:50 -0000 From: "andrewyslee" Subject: holding part on CNC rotary table Like to ask what is the best way to hold parts on a CNC rotary table? Without a chuck, how does one hold parts on the rotary table. Would a 3-jaw or 4-jaw chuck be better? Leaving out metal parts, what can one make with a CNC rotary table? Thanks Andrew ------- Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 08:31:20 -0700 From: "Marcus & Eva" Subject: Re: holding part on CNC rotary table Hi Andrew: On a tiny rotary table like the Sherline the two best ways I've found are: #1) the 4 jaw chuck because you can fine adjust the axis of the part to coincide with the axis of the rotary table. #2) a magnetic chuck for bigger flat ferrous parts that are not very tall, and for mounting a grinding vise. The problem with the Sherline chuck is that its diameter is so small that there is not a lot of room for clamps around the job. On a large turntable (we had an 18" diameter one at the toolroom I used to work at), you've got tons of room for clamps and step blocks and vises...whatever you wanted to bolt on.) On the Sherline, you've got to resign yourself to making very compact clamps...mine are all "L" shaped, and made of a very hard grade of aluminum so they don't bash up the table. Even so, you're unlikely to be able to clamp anything more than a 3" square on the table. If you want to mount the Sherline vise, you will probably have to drill and tap some mounting holes in the turntable, and mill a slot across the fixed jaw end of the vise. Remember, with these tiny tools, you can't squeeze the stuffing out of the mounting screws without destroying something, so you need to substitute with more clamps...four for a vise is my preferred minimum, unless I intend to take only the lightest of cuts. Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 10:57:09 -0700 From: Alan Marconett KM6VV Subject: Re: holding part on CNC rotary table Hi Andrew: The Sherline table has 'T' slots, so you can use 'T' nuts and the Sherline hold down set to secure your stock. I don't have a Sherline lathe (YET), but I bought both the 3 and 4 jaw Sherline chucks to hold work with in conjunction with the rotary table. Nice! Make ROUND things! HTH Alan KM6VV ------- Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 13:09:46 -0700 From: "Brown, Mark A (SPO)" Subject: RE: holding part on CNC rotary table Here's two ways I've accomplished this. If the item has a center hole at least 1/4" in diameter I use the following. I made a threaded piece that screws down into the center of the rotary table. The part that sticks up above the rotary table is turned down to 1/4" and sticks up about 1/8". This is center drilled and tapped. Then I put double sided tape on the rotary table. The piece is put on double sided tape then I thread a screw with a nut on it into the center piece. The nut is then turned down to tighten the work piece onto the tape. It holds VERY well.....sometimes too much as getting the part back off the table can be difficult. The second was to take a large piece of 1/4" aluminum plate and put countersunk holes in it so it can be mounted to the rotary table with the T-slots on the table and some countersunk screws. Then I drill and tap this as necessary to mount my work to it with clamps and such. ------- Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 07:53:35 -0500 From: "Nance, Tom" Subject: RE: holding part on CNC rotary table Hi Mark: I did sorta the same thing when I was making a flywheel. I made a threaded arbor for the rotary table and mounted the flywheel blank on the arbor and then chucked the arbor into the lathe to turn the flywheel. (There's a 3/8" shoulder above the arbor theads that sits down into the center hole of the rotory table that provided enough purchase to hold the arbor in the lathe without damaging the 3/8-26 threads.) The idea of doing it that way was so the flywheel would be absolutely concentric to the arbor. Well, the best laid plans... When the lathe work was finished, it was time to cut the spokes and so I screwed the arbor still holding the flywheel onto the rotary table. I then drilled a hole in the flywheel in an area between the future spokes and secured the wheel to the table with a screw, spacer, and a T-nut. I then used a DTI in the mill spindle to exactly center the table by registering on the outer rim of the wheel. Things were going swimmingly until I gave the rotary table a spin. Disaster. I figured I screwed up the centering process so I did it again. When I moved the DTI around the edge of the wheel, there was no deflection. However, when I rotated the table there was a good sized deflection. No matter what I did I could not center the wheel with the set up I had. In the end I mounted the arbor in the 4-jaw chuck on the table. It was a real circus trying to change end mills. I had hardly any room at all. What I figure went wrong (or rather, the thing I didn't count on) was the fact that while the flywheel was concentric to the arbor, the arbor was not concentric to the table. Either the center hole is not concentric to the table (not likely) or the threads I cut were not exactly concentric to the arbor (much more likely). I don't think I can cut threads with the precision required to use this method. Another difficulty is that after cutting the most exact threads known to mankind one has to unchuck the work and flip it around to thread the other end of the arbor. That introduces all kinds of errors. Well, in short, I'll never use that method again. I just wished they made a more compact 4-jaw chuck. The one I have eats up a lot of precious room under the mill head. Tom Nance Corpus Christi, TX ------- Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 15:13:00 -0000 From: "tnance0913" Subject: Mounting Stuff on the Rotary Table. Hey, Sherliners, Since my last post I've been thinking about how to mount work on the rotary table so that it is exactly centered on the table. The 4-jaw chuck is a good way to do it, but it eats up a lot of room. I might have another solution. How about a tool similar to the adjustable tailstock thingabob that Sherline sells. There are two parts to it. The lower part is a 1- 1/2 inch diameter disk that is, say, 1/8 inch thick on the end of a 3/8"D x 3/4"L shaft. The other end of the shaft is threaded with 3/8- 26 threads so that it screws into the center hole of the rotary table. There are two, 6-32 threaded holes in the disk for the screws that will hold the two parts together. The upper part of the tool is also a 1-1/2" diameter disk but it has a thickness of 1/4". It too has a center shaft, however its shaft is, say, 1/4" diameter and is threaded with 1/4-20 threads thru most of its length except for the last 1/8" or so. There are two oversize holes in upper disk for the screws that hold the tool together. They are oversized so the upper disk can be moved around on top of the lower disk. The holes are also counterbored so the screwheads are below the disk's surface and do not interfere with the work monted on the upper disk. To use the tool, you screw the lower disk into the center hole of the rotary table and then mount the upper disk on the lower but do not fully tighten the screws. Place a DTI in the mill spindle and register it to the edge of the upper disk. Don't turn the mill spindle, but instead crank the rotary table around and change the position the upper disk until you read no deflection on the DTI. At this point the shaft of the upper disk is exactly centered on the rotational axis of the rotary table. Now you can mount your work on the shaft and tighten it down with a 1/4-20 nut. The downside of all of this is that you have only a single choice of the center bore of your work - 1/4" in this case. I guess you could made a series of upper parts with different diameters of mounting shafts. But the main thing is that here is a way to mount work on the rotary table without sacrificing the space consumed by the 4-jaw chuck. What do you think? Tom Nance Corpus Christi, TX ------- Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 18:25:23 -0000 From: "Bruce Buchner" Subject: Re: Mounting Stuff on the Rotary Table. I was thinking of some kind of mechnism to turn the rotary table itself into a chuck. Imagine four jaws that would ride in the T-Slots and a piece that would fit in the center with four vertical slots that would align with the T-Slots. Lengths of threaded rod would have a groove on one end to fit in the vertical slots in the center piece and have the jaws threaded on them. Each jaw would then be independent so the part could be perfectly centered to the table. It would also reduce the height which is very important when using the table. It should be possible to make jaws of different heights. I would think that each jaw should have a shoulder to ride on the surface of the table for stability. I am not enough of an engineer to make this but I'm sure one of you guys could make this work. If you do please make me one too. Bruce Buchner ------- Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 09:17:54 -0400 From: Ken Jenkins Subject: Re: Slick little vise arrangement. [TAIGTOOLS GROUP] Came across this vise which looks very simple to construct and very useful especially for engraving signs. http://npmccabe.tripod.com/minivise.htm ------- NOTE TO FILE: Workholding on a Sherline mill has crept heavily into the discussion of otherwise Sherline specific issues. For example, some workholding discussion with general ideas can be read in the text file Sherline Mill Quirks or Tips -- see a thread called "Z Axis rotation" (in 2003). Again, that just goes to prove that you should browse more than one file if looking for specific topics. For any mill topics, it helps to scan the Sherline and Taig mill files as well as the more general files like Milling Tips or Workshop Tips. ------- Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 08:28:47 -0700 From: "P. J. Hicks" Subject: Hold downs and tooling plate [SHERLINE GROUP POSTING] I made a nice tooling plate from 3.5" x 1/2" aluminum flat bar. Drilled 4 rows of staggered holes, tapped 10-32, and flycut for flatness. Works great. For hold downs I made a set of clamp bars from 3/16" x 1" steel flat stock, tapered the business end, drilled and tapped 1/4-20 hole at the other end and slotted down the centerline longitudinally. In use I use 10-32 setscrews of various lengths as a pivot tightening post, I use various lengths of 1/4"-20 round head carriage bolts head down on the tooling plate where the step block might go. The carriage bolt is easily adjusted by fingers for correct height and the 10-32 nut and setscrew in the slot tightens the whole thing down. The setscrews are also installed finger tight. Three or four can be installed in the time it takes to read this! PJH ------- Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 11:24:41 -0700 From: "Brown, Mark A (SPO)" Subject: RE: Securing work to the rotary table From: Lee Owens [mailto:longdistanceoperatorx~xxyahoo.com] >>How do you do it if you don't have holes in the part? I'm making my first project on my new machine tools and ran into this problem last night. The project is a 1/8 scale model of a Ferrari V-12 and I was working on the block last night. I drilled holes in it but what if I want to make something like dice? BTW I ran into clearance problems several times last night. The Tilting Angle Table w/Rotary Table kept running into the vertical arm. I ended up turning the whole setup around and using a mirror to turn the table 180deg and lock it down.<< Sometimes I design stuff with holes in it that look decorative or are filled with ornamental plugs when the actual purpose of the hole was for hold downs. If you look at the Stirling I designed and built (the black and gold one) at www.zora-arkus.com you will find quite a bit of this. Another technique I use if the part is big enough is a holding plate of sorts. I made a piece that screws into the rotary table much like the threaded plug that holds the 3 or four jaw chuck to it (btw, using the 3 or 4 jaw is another method). However, this piece is drilled and tapped in the center and doesn't stick up higher than the rotary table top. Then I drill a hole through a blank, put double sided tape on the back of the blank and put it on the rotary table with the hole centered over the plug I built. Now you put a bolt through the blank into the threaded plug and tighten it down. Believe me, it's pretty secure (sometime takes chemicals to release the tape). Now you can drill mounting threaded holes where ever you want in the blank to hold larger or odd shapes. Mark A. Brown ------- Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 11:46:23 -0700 From: "Dave Hylands" Subject: RE: Securing work to the rotary table You can also use crazy glue (or other cyanoacrylate glues) to secure your work to a piece of metal which can be clamped. Apparently you can use heat to break the glue joint (I haven't tried this). There are also metals which melt in boiling water that can be used for fixturing: http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE=699 Dave Hylands Vancouver, BC, Canada http://www.DaveHylands.com/ ------- Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 20:23:00 +0100 From: "Mark Howard" Subject: RE: Securing work to the rotary table These glues work well for some things and the joint can be broken by applied heat, BUT, beware of the fumes given off (I'm led to believe that cyanoacrylate contains cyanide - the name kind of gives it away!). Only apply heat in a very well ventilated area, preferably outside with a stiff breeze blowing! I don't even know if this is recommended - although I've done it several times and managed to stay vertical! Regards Mark Howard ------- Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 13:33:39 -0400 From: "John Thompson" Subject: superglues Just for the record, superglues (CA glue) do NOT contain cyanide. You can use acetone to soften and remove CA glues, or sometimes a sharp rap with a deadblow will remove the part if they are both metal. Some people develop allergies to CA glues, so its best to use a fan or other ventilation when using these glues. Basically just keep your head out of the fumes. John ------- Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 09:35:43 -0700 From: Don Rogers Subject: Re: Out of the Box >Parallels - These can be used to set something up higher in a vise, >among other things. They're very very good to have. I just picked up a set of parallels for my Taig. I bought sets of high speed steel tool bits in every size from 1/8" through 5/8" They are not ground to size, but they are ground parallel. The cost for the smaller ones are almost nothing, $0.39 each in lots of 10. Even the 5/8" were less than $4.00 each. The lengths run from about 2.5" to near 4". Just right for the small vises. The shortest set of parallels I could find was 6". Don ------- Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 14:22:48 -0700 From: "Dave Hylands" Subject: RE: Re: Out of the Box Sherline makes a little set: http://www.sherline.com/7505pg.htm Little Machine Shop also sells a set that's only 3" long: http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1893 Dave Hylands Vancouver, BC, Canada http://www.DaveHylands.com/ ------- Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 20:20:11 -0000 From: "Jim Knighton" Subject: Re: Mill vise just a little bit bigger than factory Sherline? This might not be what you're looking for, but I have a 2" screwless vise that I got from the Little Machine Shop. Like the Sherline it is abt 2" wide and 2" tall. I have both vises in front of me as I write this. The Sherline's jaws measure approx 7/8" deep, the screwless is 1". The Sherline opens to a max of abt 1 7/8" (with liners in place). The screwless doesn't have removable liners and it opens to abt 2 5/8". OAL of the Sherline is abt 4". OAL of the abt 5 1/4". The Sherline is aluminum with a few steel parts. The screwless is all steel, much more robust in construction and substantially heavier (abt 3-4 lbs). It's an all-around nice vice. I don't recall the price, but it was well under $50. Screwless vises are available from a variety of sources. LMS pricing is in the middle of the range. I've seen 1" and 1.5" models, I purchased the 2", and I've looked at 3" and 4" models. The 2" is a nice "upgrade" from the Sherline product with slightly larger work holding capabilities. The 3" from LMS is a nice vise as well and might be closer in size to what you are looking for. Check weight and dimensions before purchasing. From my own research I concluded the 3" would be a bit large for the Sherline mill, but would work nicely with my mill/drill. I haven't purchased it as yet, however. Another alternative might be the Taig milling vise. It looks more like a drill press vise and compared to the screwless and the Sherline vises it looks a tad wimpy. Looks are deceiving, however, and this is actually a nice, albeit small vise. I am using one for one of my projects. It opens a bit wider than the Sherline but not as wide as the screwless. It is also relatively inexpensive at abt $28-29. Your best alternative might be to take a close look at the Taig vise and then build your own to roughly the same pattern. Regards, Jim Knighton ------- Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 08:50:42 -1000 (HST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: Holding irregular shaped items.... On Thu, 23 Oct 2003, scuffer52 wrote: > I was wondering what solutions have been found for holding > irregular shaped, flat backed items like a cameo pendant where you > want to engrave letters into the flat back? > Apart from holding the piece without damaging it the back has to > be square with the cutter or you will be cutting the letters at > different depths. Also the letters are not cut very deep and going > deeper with a V-tip(spade) cutter only makes the lines wider which > means the letters could run into each other. > I have thought of embedding the piece in plaster, wax etc. but > removing it without damage is a concern. Ideas?? Thx...Greg Miller I haven't used this, so I can't vouch for its effectiveness, but Rio Grande sells a fixturing compound that might work in this situation. It's a plastic putty that gets soft when it's hot and gets hard when it's cool. The "hot" temp is lower than boiling water, so it's apparently pretty easy to use. The last Rio Grande Tools catalog had mention of the stuff on almost every page. "Look! It's a fixturing compound!" "Look! You can make custom tool handles out of it!" "Look! ..." Honestly it did seem pretty neat. My guess is you could make some sort of a backer plate that you'd bolt to your mill table. Put a blob of the stuff on top of the plate, squish the cameo into the blob, put parallels on either side of the blob (1/4" or 3/8" lathe toolbits?), and put a flat plate on top of that. Squish down, and the back of the cameo should be level with the tops of the two parallels. Let the fixturing compound set, mount to the mill, and go. When you're done, put it in some hot water and the fixturing compound should let go. Again, I haven't used the stuff. This is a guess. The jewelers on the list would have a much better idea how to go about doing this. Tom ------- Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 19:55:58 +0100 From: Steve Blackmore Subject: Re: Holding irregular shaped items.... Jewellers used to use Bitumen. (They still may do). It's allso used in repousse work where a pattern is punched from the back of the work. You can buy it in small blocks from any roofing supplier. Heating makes it soft enough to embed/remove item, white spirit will clean any residue. If your part can't stand heat, I don't know. Steve Blackmore ------- Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 15:35:11 -0600 From: "Tim Goldstein" Subject: RE: Holding irregular shaped items.... > but Rio Grande sells a fixturing compound that might work in > this situation. It's a plastic putty that gets soft when > it's hot and gets hard when it's cool. The "hot" temp is > lower than boiling water, so it's apparently pretty easy to use. Tom: The stuff is called Jett Set. We sell it in our store and I have used it a fair amount. The stuff works great and releases very clean. The easiest way to use it is to get a thermostatic hot pot (we also sell these and use it ourselves). Put tap water in the pot and plug it in. Put in a thermometer and adjust it to about 160 deg F (the hot pot has a temperature adjustment, but it is not calibrated). Once you set it never change the adjustment. Now put some of the Jett Set into the water. It initially comes as little pellets. Give it a few minutes to get up to temperature. Then just gather up the beads and squish it into a ball. It will be quite plastic at this point and warm enough you want to work fast. Squish it into a holder and then press in the piece you want to retain. Retention is mechanical so you have to surround the item completely on the sides. Now you can either let it cool naturally or if in a rush I throw it in the freezer for a few minutes. Once the material has cooled to room temperature it is quite hard. When you want to release the material you just throw it in the hot pot and it turns back into the plastic state and you just pull it off. As long as you don't overheat the stuff you can just keep reusing it. One pound of the stuff is about $35 and that is a lot of material. Tim A2Z Metalsmith Supply Inc 5151 S Federal Blvd Unit I-9 Littleton CO 80123 720 283-7200 www.A2ZMetalsmithSupply.com ------- Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 06:14:37 -1000 (HST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: Stock mounting questions. On Wed, 12 Nov 2003, Aahz. wrote: > So I've made my first successful part on the mill, a small 2" > plastic gear that I eventually need to make out of aluminum. I > discovered I don't really know any reliable ways to mount metal on > the mill. Does anyone have some helpful suggestions for me? That's the question of the day, methinks... There are probably more ways to hold stuff on a mill table than there are ways to cut it once it's there. If you do a search on the terms "jig" and "fixture" you're bound to hit something. (Ok, granted 99% of it won't have anything to do with machining, but that's the way of the search engine.) One of the easiest and handiest is to have a vise. The one that came with my mill was not that well-suited for the task. I keep it in a drawer and use it as a small drill press vise, but it doesn't see much service otherwise. A nice screwless toolmaker's vise will set you back about $45 if bought new from Enco or MSC, and will save you lots of headaches. The second method, which I'm sure you'll run into as soon as you buy a toolmaker's vise, is clamps. The vise has no way for it to be mounted to the mill table, so you have to come up with some sort of clamping arrangement. The clamps I made for my vise were cut from 1"x1/8" steel angle that was drilled to take a #10-32 screw. The screw goes through the clamp, down into a T-slot, and engages a T-nut. Align the vise, crank down on the screws (gently... gently... it's an aluminum table after all), and you're good to go. I also made up a set of strap clamps along the same lines and basic geometry of the strap clamp sets you find in any Enco or MSC catalog. Only I've been too lazy to finish the job so mine have bare ends and no step blocks. At some point I need to go back and make step blocks and step the rear ends of the clamps. A nice set of strap clamps and step blocks are worth their weight in gold. (Ok, mine are made of aluminum so it's not THAT much gold.) For thin flat stuff my favorite is a sacrificial plate. Bolt the plate down to the mill table (I either clamp mine or drill it to take a #10-32 screw), and bolt the workpiece to the plate. Mill away to your heart's content. Remove the bolts and your part comes off. When the plate's too chewed up to work any more, fly cut it smooth and start over. More on the sacrificial plate: If you have a bunch of small thin parts you need to make, you can either silver solder or superglue your stock to the sacrificial plate, and cut it that way. If you use superglue, keep in mind that heat and some coolants will degrade the glue. So take light cuts and try the technique cutting something you don't care about just in case it comes loose during machining. To remove the items, heat them with a torch. Or remove the sacrificial plate and put it on top of a portable stove burner. (The fumes from superglue are really really nasty, so don't do this on your kitchen stove.) The first mention I've seen of this trick is James Nasmyth back in the 1800's. My guess is it's even older than that. Yet more on the sacrificial plate: A lot of bigger thin parts need cutting on the outside and cutting on the inside. If you're only making one or two of these parts, mill out the inside pockets and holes first. Then drill and tap some holes into the sacrificial plate so you can clamp the part through its own holes and pockets. Now mill out the outside shape of the part. I did a bad job of describing this, but it's a handy technique. That last use of a sacrificial plate would probably count as a rudimentary fixture, which leads to the next section: Fixtures! If you're making a bunch of stuff, it's often easier and quicker to spend a little time making a fixture to hold the parts. Fixtures are whatever you make that'll hold the parts while you machine them. Going back to the bit about thin parts that have holes in them, I made a bunch of parts at one point that looked like a truss. They were cut from 1/8" x 1" aluminum bar. I ran one toolpath to cut out all the holes in all the blanks while they were held in a vise. Next I made a fixture that had bosses to match the holes I'd just cut in all those parts. The parts slipped down over the bosses and could be screwed into place. Then I milled the outside of the parts. The real advantage to a fixture is that you align the fixture to the mill. Once. Swapping part to part you don't have to indicate anything in or use an edge finder to touch off any corners. It's neat. This is hardly an exhaustive list. Fixtures in particular deserve volumes. What it boils down to is this, though: Think of some way to hold what you're working on. That's how you can hold what you're working on. If it comes loose while you're machining it, think of some other way to hold what you're working on. Tom ------- Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 12:48:10 +0000 From: "steve sc" Subject: Fixturing... Great post on the mill fixturing! One other small technique that I have had luck with. Instead of superglue (cyanoarcylic?), I have been using a two part adhesive called typically "plastic welder". I buy it locally in an autoparts store. It is an acrylic, I believe but is very strong, and sticks to many materials. Other neat part is that it cures in under one-half hour to a good part of its final strength. Glues plastics, metals, woods. I have found that to unstick the parts after machining, soaking in the solvent used to clean plastic pipes prior to bonding will slowly swell and soften the glue...can take several hours. The glue seems pretty resistant to heat. It is very thick and definitely fills gaps. One thing that can be real trouble is double sticky tape. I once used it on a big mill and the heat generated soften the sticky and the piece slid and was ruined. OK to use on substrates that insulate the heat like wood or plastic, but not metal. ------- Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 14:10:55 -0800 From: "Scott A. Stephens" Subject: Re: Screwless vise >Anybody ever run into a screwless vise that will not go to the next >position when it is clamped to the table, due to lack of clearance >underneath? Is it safe to remove the little t-shaped retainer and >turn down its hub in the lathe? I found that if I pushed down on the allen head screw that pokes up that the little T thingy would go down enough so I didn't have to poke the pin out and try to push it back in threw those holes on the side. I would give that a try before you machine it down. I still have a bit of a problem moving to the next position, but this takes care of it. ------- Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 22:31:05 -0000 From: "John Bentley" Subject: Re: Screwless vise >I would give that a try before you machine it down. I still have a >bit of a problem moving to the next position, but this takes care of it. I tried that but there is just not quite enough space - I think I only need to remove a skim. I'm glad to hear I am not the only one who has had a problem. The cross bar on mine is held in position with a setscrew and not able to move when used as designed. Thanks, John ------- Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 23:05:14 +0000 From: Steve Blackmore Subject: Re: Screwless vise Mine did that John - just skimmed the retainer a little on the grinder, works great now. Sounds very much like the same make as mine, It came complete with fancy wooden box and was from J&L. Just a skim was enough to make it work as designed. It's surprisingly square and true and the surface is very hard, accidentally tried to mill mine, no damage to the vice apart from to the finish, but the mill was a "bin job" - totally blunt ;) Steve Blackmore ------- Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 11:53:09 -1000 (HST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Fixturing Question Haaaalp! I've potentially run into a fixturing snafu that's got me scratching my head. There's still the off-chance someone else is going to make this part instead of me, but I'm all about hedging my bets. I need to make a part that has an outside profile similar to that of a con rod on a steam engine. It's about 0.100" long, 0.010" wide, 0.004" thick in the middle, and 0.008" thick at either end. I know it's likely to flex. That's ok, it looks like a con rod but it's being used as a strap. I'm planning on cutting it out of brass, but I'm open to options. The only way I can come up with to make this cut is to use CA glue to glue brass shim stock down to a sacrificial fixture. Brass can be cut dry, so I don't have to worry about coolant eroding the CA. I'm going to use aluminum as a fixture, so heat buildup shouldn't be a problem, either. This is going to require making a D-bit cutter about 0.010" or smaller, likely smaller. The fixturing alone is giving me fits. Making the eentsy- weentsy cutter is something I'm just not thinking about at the moment. Go ahead and point out that I'm in way way over my head. I am. But if you can come up with any better way to fixture the workpiece, or an alternative to the D-bit cutter, let me know. I'm definitely all ears on this one. Thanks, Tom ------- Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 00:31:43 -0500 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Fixturing Question Hi Tom, Didn't know you had joined the watchmaking fraternity! Here's a couple of thoughts in addition to CA. Make the fixture from brass and solder the part down. Secure the part to the fixture with shellac or sealing wax. Releases at a lower temp, and shellac can be cleaned off with denatured alcohol. Make a birdsmouth (board with a V cut it in that clamps in a vise and use a jewelers saw for the outline. Make the part from three pieces of 0.004 shim, doubling up on the ends and soldering them. Or fold over the ends and solder, then saw to profile, bevel the transition from 8 to 4 thou with 600 grit. Might be easier to do the bevel on the ends before folding over or soldering on individual tabs. Anneal the brass first if you go the folding route, shim stock is left very hard from the rolling. Machine the part in a pocket, but in 1/4 inch thick stuff. Cut the perimeter around the part 1/8 inch deep. Fill the cavity with Cerrosafe, flip over, and flycut to final thickness. Drop in hot water to release. I have no idea if this would work for a part so thin, but one of the guys in our club makes critical pieces for laser mirror housings this way. If the thicker ends are for strength of attachment, maybe an old watch mainspring would be a source of better material? 0.1mm is a pretty common thickness, which is very,very close to 4 thou. You could then grind to width, as they are over 1 mm in width. Drill the holes by spinning a piece of 0.010 wire hard and fast against the watchspring to spot anneal the hole location, then drill (or EDM it). You could also just anneal the length of spring, machine, drill, then harden and temper if required. Pocket watch mainsprings are a bit thicker, the broken one I just measured is 0.007 thick, and 0.077 wide. Send me your address off group if you want and I'll send you a foot or so to play with. Make your 10 thou drill from music wire, or buy a pivot drill from Mascot (available from watchmakers supply houses). Mascot has flat and spiral pivot drills in this size, problem is most suppliers only sell them by the dozen (about $25/spade, $50 twist). Just imagine the fun of trying to use a spiral 0.010 drill in brass :-) Bet you don't even feel it grab and break! A high E string from a guitar is usually 0.009, might do the job, just grind to a spade point and relieve a bit behind the cutting tip. A local music store probably has an E string at 0.010 either individually or in a set. Drill by hand using a pin vise in any event. If you go this route, you'll have to chuck the drill with the tip very close to the pin vise. Mascot drills in this size have a flute around 0.060 to 0.070 long, then go up to a 1mm shank. Maybe you could reduce the tip OD of a #80 bit, they are 0.014. Never tried it, but I think rolling the drill towards you with a pin vice on a hard brass plate while pushing forward with a 400 or 600 grit sanding stick would make pretty quick work of it. Same method as used to hand polish clock and watch pivots. Finish off by flattening the cutting tips so the cutting edges have zero rake. Another possibility is a very fine needle ground to a spade point. I take it you have a magnifying headband and a double loupe already clipped to your reading glasses? :-) If you choose to buy drills, Timesavers sells Mascot drills individually for $3.25, or 3 for $9.00. URL for main site is: http:// www.timesavers.com The drills are on page 110 of the printed catalog that came in the mail recently, listed as pivot drills. They are on page 105 of the online catalog at the moment, not sure which one is out of date. The direct URL is: http://www.clock-keys.com/pdf/105.PDF Cheers, Stan ------- Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 00:24:45 -0500 From: "C. A. Weagle" Subject: Re: Fixturing Question Are there holes in the ends (like a stretched-out figure-8)? If so, you might be able to drill a randomly-placed through-hole for a small screw (if it's a strap, I assume you have tiny screws to fasten it down in it's desired application). You can zero off of wherever it ends up. If you clamp the other end of the (oversized) base stock to the tooling plate, you can locate and drill the other hole and screw it down too. The you're in the clear - _ might still put a drop of CA down in the middle to keep it from lifting. That's a pretty small part! I once had to make some Delrin parts on that scale in a full-sized manual milling machine. I was lucky that it had ballscrews, otherwise the backlash would have been larger that most of the dimensions! ------- Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 00:00:59 +0000 From: "steve sc" Subject: Fixturing... Tom, Re: the fixturing problem relating to making that little brass piece. Another option might be to make the piece out of brass using a chemical etch process like used in making PC boards. I *think* that brass is etchable using etchants such as ferric chloride (Radio Shack). What I was thinking (if I understand what you are trying to do) is to etch the piece out of brass shim stock and then thin the center section using some sort of abrasive process/filing. To make the resist pattern for the etchant, there are a couple of options. One is photochemical resist; the other that I use to make printed circuit boards is to print the positive on glossy paper on a LaserJet printer and then to iron the toner/resist onto the copper(or in this case brass). The clothes iron melts the toner and it re-fuses on the metal. Toss into the etchant and stir frequently. I guess you could even consider a two step etch process. First mask the ends, etch the middle to final thickness, then mask entire part, etch to finish. If you are interested, search the web on PC board iron laserjet resist. You should find a couple of how-tos. Steve ------- Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 00:34:19 +0000 From: "steve sc" Subject: Etching parts... Tom, Shortly after posting, my enthusiam is somewhat curbed about etching. The potential issue is undercutting. With a width of 0.01 and a thickness of 0.008, you are looking at a pretty high aspect ratio. That being said, I think it may be worth a try...might require tuning the geometry some and maybe playing around with the etchant concentration and/or agitation profiles. I *think* undercutting is a function of how well the etching byproducts are flushed out. Anyone out there with chemical machining experience? All I have done is PC boards. Steve ------- Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 05:47:22 -0000 From: "Terence T.S. Tam" Subject: Photoetching (was Re: Fixturing...) My shop teacher has a locomotive that he's been building, and tags on the locomotive were photoetched magnesium. Solid plate of aluminum went in, I guess they applied photo resist on, developed it, etched it. It looks like a cast iron plate (with his name and year the locomotive was built on it), but of course in miniature. Brass *definately* can be photo-etched. Model builders have been using photo-etched parts for years to detail model, when injection molding won't give you the level of details required. Brass is I think 60+% Cu, and ferric chloride will etch it (get this from Radio Shack as PCB Etchant). Just make sure you don't have copper pipes before pouring it down the drain :-) http://www.dynaart.com/ - these guys sell toner transfer paper - and it's good stuff. Just a happy customer. One funny note: When I first started this with etching PCBs I polished the hell out of the copper clad. Like, mirror shiny. The toner wouldn't grab on because it was polished so fine, so I called up the owner and he said, "Oh, just scour it with a scotch brite". I made PCB with SMT pads with it okay after that. Here's a link on photoetching brass. http://home.att.net/~ShipModelFAQ/ShopNotes/smf-SN-PhotoEtch.html Terence ------- Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 08:41:42 +0000 From: Tony Jeffree Subject: Re: Fixturing... Naturally, you would need to (accurately) position the resist on both sides. Regards, Tony ------- Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 20:22:35 -0000 From: "vks_generic" Subject: Re: Fixturing... > To make the resist pattern for the etchant, there are a couple of > options. One is photochemical resist; the other that I use to make > printed circuit boards is to print the positive on glossy > paper on a LaserJet printer and then to iron the toner/resist on Both work great for removing very small amount of material. I have already forgotten, how deep you need to etch, but if it is anything significantly deeper than the thickness of the conductive layer on a PCB board, you may have some problems. 1. both methods do not produce a 100% inpenetrable coating. The etchant still gets into the masked parts, just not as much, and is not agitated, hence it doesn't etch as much. The longer you etch your piece (to remove more material), the more of a problem that would be. A great replacement for the laserjet method is fingernail polish/laquer thing - whichever way you spell that. It is also easily removed with acetone. 2. When etching deeper than PCB-thickness, the etchant will eat under the masking coating, creating something that looks like a miniature overhanging cliff. The solution to that is to etch in several steps, recoating the masked area with fingernail polish or something between steps. Also, this way you can easily get a fairly precise gradual thickness change - just coat a little more or a little less area each time. Vlad ------- Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 19:10:45 +0000 From: Clive Foster Subject: Re: Clamp Kits [was taigtools group but applies to sherlines too] I'm inclined to be a bit wary of conventional T nuts & studs on our lightweight tables. I prefer short T studs with a tapped hexagon 'long-nut" holding it in place with whatever length of stud suits the job screwed into it. With a washer under the long-nut the the t-stud assembly can be clamped firmly to the table so virtually eliminating the risk of distorting slot or table. I have seen tables distorted or with bits torn out of the slots on larger machines by people being stupidly careless and ours are probably light enough for a moments inattention to get you into trouble. Use a bolt or allen head with a conventional tapped through T nut and its awfully easy to go just a bit too far, forcing on the bed between slots rather than on the work clamp. I fabricate larger T nuts by brazing or gluing and pinning two pieces of strip together, the upper one sized to fit the the slot and the lower one sized to go under it, with the short stud brazed or locitited in as appropriate. For our size a strip long enough for 6 or 8 assembled by the loctite method should be very little trouble to make. HTH. Clive ------- Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 23:15:27 +0000 From: Tony Jeffree Subject: Re: Hold-Down clamps/blocks [taigtools group] >I've seen pictures of Sherline's clamp and block sets, but don't know >what the dimensions are. Are these a reasonable starting point? >Anyone know (or willing to take measurements of) the dimensions of >the sherline clamp and block sets? Alternatively, can someone >suggest reasonable dimensions for such items for use on a Taig mill? The Sherline hold down set works just fine with the Taig mill (I have the set & use it regularly). The only bit that doesn't work is the T-nuts, which are designed to fit the Sherline slots; you will need to make some up, but this is easily done by drilling/tapping UNF 10-32 holes in short pieces of 1/2" X 1/8" steel bar. You will find that many of the Sherline milling accessories can be similarly adapted. Regards, Tony ------- Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 15:34:48 -0800 From: "Dave Hylands" Subject: RE: Hold-Down clamps/blocks [taigtools group] Hi Jim, Basically, the slot in the middle needs to be big enough that whatever size bolt you use for holddown can move freely. The length can be quite variable. I've found several situations where the sherline holders were too big or too small, so having a variety of length is useful. Make the sides about the same thickness as the bolt clearance slot, and make the whole thing about two bolt slot thicknesses high (This is also quite forgiving, but longer ones should probably be thicker). So basically, there is no "right" hold-down clamp, other than the one that works for the task at hand. If you want the exact dimensions of the Sherline parts, goto this page: http://www.sherline.com/prices3.htm There's a section called 3D Part drawings, where you can download ACTIFY. Then for any part listed further down, where the part number has a bold red number, you can view the part in Actify and pull off dimensions. Parts 30130, 30134, and 30135 will be of interest to you. Sherline sells two different style of hold-down clamps: http://www.sherline.com/3012pg.htm http://www.sherline.com/3013pg.htm A coupe of others you might find interesting: http://www.sherline.com/tip3.htm http://www.sherline.com/tip5.htm Dave Hylands Vancouver, BC, Canada http://www.DaveHylands.com ------- Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 01:27:03 -0500 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Hold-Down clamps/blocks sdw wrote: > I'm a beginner and i'm curious. What are you planning to use to > clamp down whatever material your going to be making into clamps > without clamps to hold it down in the first place? Hi sdw, Sorry, no stupid beginner question of the month award for you! Your question shows you're thinking. The question opens up a couple of areas beyond just how to hold stuff without having a complete shop. One of the "joys" of machining is figuring out how to do what you want with what you have. Usually it is a joy, sometimes it's a PITA, hence the quotes. Hobby and prototype machining is a lot like software development or any other complex but creative task. You usually get better results in less overall time if you stare out the window turning things over in your head for a while before starting the actual "work". Particularly true if there's some vagueness about how to go about the job at hand. I don't have a Taig mill, just the lathe. My mill is a bit larger, but the same approach works, you just scale up or down as you change machine size. IIRC, the mill also uses #10 hardware, so I'll go with that size. Quick and dirty starter strap clamping set up: Drill a hole sized to be a loose fit on a number 10 screw in the middle of 2 aluminum straps around 1 1/2 inches long, say 1/2 inch wide, and 1/4 inch thick. Then get some 10-24 or 10-32 square nuts at the local hardware store, along with several pairs of cap screws in assorted lengths, and a dozen or more #10 washers. Add some assorted bits of packing, say two pieces of keystock in 1/8, 3/16, 1/4, and 3/8 sizes. Might be cheaper to buy lengths of aluminum square stock than keystock, all depends on what you have handy and what you can get easily. Maybe some lengths of 10-24 or 10-32 allthread and matching hex nuts also, you can slice it up into the lengths you need. Just be sure all the hardware matches for thread pitch, and that you buy a couple of hex keys to fit the cap screws. One quick and dirty set of strap clamps all done. Not the ones you want to use forever, but good enough to clamp stuff to the table. Using strap clamps (or how to keep your mill table nice and your work held fast): Put the work up on 1/8 spacers (parallels if you want to use the correct terminology) so you don't cut into the table. If the work is 1/4 inch thick, use the 3/8 keystock under one end of the strap clamps, the work (on the 1/8 inch parallels) under the other. Strap clamps should be parallel with the table in use, not tilted up or down. Drop a long enough cap screw into the hole in the middle of each clamp, tightened into a square nut slid into the mill slots. If you can't line up the holes in your straps with the T slots, just drill another hole in the strap where you need it. Be sure the screw doesn't go though the nut and turn into a jack. If the cap screw threads in too far, use a shorter cap screw or add a few more washers between the head of the cap screw and the strap. More than one mill has had a tee slot cracked by ignoring this. Commercial T nuts are made with imperfect threads, meaning that the last 2 or so threads aren't fully cut. This keeps studs from becoming jacks. A good practice to follow when you make your good clamping kit. Don't go nuts tightening when using strap clamps, there is nothing on top of the table to help protect the T slots from being cracked or pulled through. Snug enough is good, heavy handed is bad. That's it for bootstrapping your way to strap clamps. The following is some general advice on making clamping goodies, along with some alternate approaches and comments on the why as much as the how of getting things done in the small shop. When making your step blocks, cut the steps in a long piece of stock, then cut into individual blocks. It takes a lot less time to make one long step block then slice it up than it does to make four short ones. Once you've made a few straps, go back and mill the slots in the 2 "make do" ones you started with. Nothing purchased for the starter clamps goes to waste. Make some real T nuts while you're at it. Use steel for these. Farm and Tractor supply houses sometimes have square stock that is a good starting point. The stuff sold as "weldable steel" at the local home center can be pretty nasty to work with. Buy good taps, and stop threading when a plug tap just starts to come through the bottom side of the T nut (imperfect threads are good for this application.) If you think about it, there are other ways to make your straps. You could use a long piece of 3/4 X 1/4 or 1/2 X 1/4 aluminum, and screw that to the table with some spacers (smaller fender washers would be a good bet here, they would span the T slots but be out of the cutting area) between the work and table. Put the screws through in between the ends of what will become the finished straps. Then you could mill the slots for four or more straps at once. Take the slotted strip off the mill, cut the clamps apart where the screws went through, finish up the ends with a file or belt sander. Remount the straps and mill the steps if you want to make your straps similar to the commercial ones. Don't forget to match the sizes of the steps on your step blocks - obvious once said, but the sort of detail it's easy to miss when starting out. If you have a bandsaw you could even use a rectangular piece of plate. Mill the steps along one side, mill the slots, then dice up the straps using the bandsaw. Could do this with a hacksaw too, if you have a high tension hacksaw frame, good blades, and like sawing. If you like making swarf I suppose you could even mill the straps apart, but this seems like a lot of time on a smaller machine. Always more than one way to get there, it's just a matter of what you have available. Get an industrial supply catalog (MSC, Enco, Travers, Rutland/Airgas) and spend some time absorbing the ideas behind all the neat goodies available to secure work. Many of these can be made very inexpensively, but cost quite a bit as they are specialty items. Just because the smallest commercially made "Clampitall XL MaxiUltimoso" gizmo is for full sized mills and costs $300 doesn't mean you can't make one sized for your machine from scrapyard bits and pieces. You need a decent vise with a mill, but it's amazing what you can do with some bits of metal, nuts, washers, allthread, and cap screws until you get one. The practice pays off down the road when you want to do something that doesn't fit in your normal workholding vises or setups. Sometimes you just can't afford the extra height of the vise. Doesn't matter if your mill weighs 60 pounds or 1200 pounds, there's always something that wants more table, daylight under the spindle, or rigidity. On the subject of vises, you can make a screwless vise using your mill without having a vise, provided you have an angle plate and a test indicator. A good project for the developing machinist, but not a good first project. Tom mentioned using screws and blocks of material to make a vise substitute in another posting. Works well, and such things are available commercially for larger mills. Sort of handy when you want to secure a long slab of material, while keeping the upper surface clear of hardware. I sometimes use such a setup when doing engine heads and other large items. You have to be careful of how hard you tighten things up, in effect you have a pair of levers trying to break out the T slots. Once again, tight is good, but this isn't a place to get in an upper body workout. When you work on the table surface, you usually have a more rigid setup, and you are working at the basic accuracy of the machine. When doing picky work I often work on the table, even if the work would fit one of my vises. Always nice to get rid of variables in the process. Maybe I just spent too many years doing test engineering to like stray variables. Just keep track of where the cutting tip is, it's hard to hide a spare slot on the mill table. My neighbor and I once cut a keyway in the crank of a Briggs and Stratton engine to take a different blade adapter without pulling the crank. Took a couple of angle plates, a precision level, and a sense of humor, but the job got done in a lot less time than it would have taken to tear the engine down. Not something you would do on a Taig or mini mill, but it shows that sometimes you just have to do "weird" things when it comes to fixturing. Old machine shop books have a lot of neat ideas from a time when shops didn't always have huge tool cribs. They are worth reading for the hobby shop machinist. Basic (mindset) rules of shop work: Know what are you going to do, and about how you intend to do it, before beginning. You just get used to making it up as you go. This doesn't contradict the item above, it simply accepts that not everything goes exactly as originally planned or expected. Blindly following a plan can be as bad as having no plan. Metal isn't very flexible, so you have to be :-) The more shop time you have, the less this comes into play for typical tasks. It always comes into play to some extent for the weird jobs. If it isn't going right, stop and figure it out. Pushing on when something is out of sorts is more likely to produce damaged tools, work, or machinist than astounding success. It isn't rare to have the setup time take far longer than the cutting. When doing oddball jobs the actual cutting is anti climactic, provided your setup is right... If not, it can be very exciting. Aim for dead on always. If you figure 10 thou is close enough, but you miss, it's scrap. If you aim for within a thou, and the part can be +/- 5 thou, you can slip up a bit and still have a good part. Good training for those jobs that really do have to be dead on. Cheers, Stan ------- Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 23:26:50 -0800 From: "Dave Hylands" Subject: RE: Re: Hold-Down clamps/blocks >One other question - what material should these be made of? Do I use >aluminum clamps for aluminum projects? Steel clamps all around? How >about the blocks (if I decide to go so far as attempting to make those?) Aluminum should be fine for a taig sized mill. Even if you want steel ones, I'd make a few out of aluminum to practice with. Use 6061 or 7075 aluminum, not the stuff you get at the hardware store. You'll probably want to make the T-Nuts out of steel (as per Nick's process), but even here you could make a few out of aluminum to start with. They'll just strip their threads much sooner :) Dave Hylands Vancouver, BC, Canada http://www.DaveHylands.com/ ------- Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 22:50:18 +0000 From: Clive Foster Subject: Re: Hold-Down clamps/blocks I'd be inclined to steer beginners clear of using aluminium for any purpose. Being so soft its a right pain for building up on cutters even if they are sharpened dead right with just the right feed rate, speed and lubricant. Hard enough for the experienced to get consistently right, highly dispiriting for a beginner especially if un-mentored. 'Tis a so and so to tap as well. Best use for pure aluminium is in small sheet scraps as clamp point protectors for work pieces. What you want is one of the light aluminium alloys of the sort usually collectively (and incorrectly) known as Dural on the UK side of the pond. Basically make sure you ask for a free machining alloy, the ones containing bismuth are relatively expensive but good for the beginners confidence as they machine easily to a good finish on any half decent approach to a good set up. Even Homer Simpson is in with a chance! "Dural" is a good choice for Tee nuts. Being softer its kinder to the table than steel and you will never strip the thread if you use them as Tee studs with a nut on top for the clamp, as I prefer, rather than Tee nuts with a bolt or allen head holding the clamp down. I always feel that plain Tee nuts are an open temptation to use the wrong length bolt when you haven't got the right length in stock or have robbed the workshop kit to repair the washing machine. It is important that both the ledges of the Tee nut which pull up against the table are at the same level. A canted nut puts horrible loads on the slot and having the bolt or stud anything other than perpendicular to the table is not good for clamping. Light alloy nuts have a bit more give than steel and so are more tolerant of small errors. Personally I'm too lazy to machine Tee nuts so I fabricate them by brazing two bits of suitably sized steel together, one thin to fit in the slots and one wide to go underneath, before drilling and tapping. This ensures that the pulling face is flat and at the same level on both sides. I'm also not the greatest fan of stepped packing block type clamps for anything other thing heavy duty jobs. I prefer a plain slotted clamp with a jacking screw. Either do the screw with a permanent foot to run on table or just de-thread the end and run it into a locating hole going about halfway through a load spreader plate 1/4 inch thick or so. Permanent feet are convenient but you end up making more clamps. Different length screws are easier to make as and when required so you soon build up a collection to suit your jobs. HTH. Clive ------- Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 08:17:43 -0800 From: James Eckman Subject: Re: Re: Hold-Down clamps/blocks > I'd be inclined to steer beginners clear of using aluminium for > any purpose ??? I guess I'm spoiled, I never get anything but good machining aluminum because it's offcuts from a local machine shop supply outfit. Build up can occur, especially if you are using steel tools on aluminum, I recommend always using cutters that have not been used on steel if you are using run of the mill cutters for this. I also use flycutters for finishing plate, the cutting angles I use can be used for hardwood as well, they are fairly radical and very sharp. I always use tapping fluid for Al so I've never had a problem with tapping. > Best use for pure aluminium is in small sheet scraps as clamp point > protectors for work pieces. I don't know if you can buy pure Al that easily except as food wrap! > "Dural" is a good choice for Tee nuts. Being softer its kinder to the > table than steel I made mine out of steel, but I made the final pass on both sides with the same vertical setting by running around the thing. I also clamped the stock directly to the table with a sheet of printer paper underneath, this is difficult to cut at an angle, which means your nuts are straight! When I tapped them, I left enough one unfinished thread so the studs can't thread through easily. Having said that, I think the Al tee nuts with studs that are loctited in would be easier and faster to make and more than strong enough as well. > Light alloy nuts have a bit more give than steel > and so are more tolerant of small errors. Yes, I agree, in hindsight Al Tee nuts are probably better for the Taig. > Personally I'm too lazy to machine Tee nuts so I fabricate them Good idea! > I'm also not the greatest fan of stepped packing block type clamps for > anything other thing heavy duty jobs. I prefer a plain slotted clamp > with a jacking screw. Make both, that way you can choose the best one for the job and not the one you have on hand. > Either do the screw with a permanent foot to run on table or just > de-thread the end and run it into a locating hole going about halfway > through a load spreader plate 1/4 inch thick or so. Permanent feet are > convenient but you end up making more clamps. Making the feet doesn't take long, this is a very quick job on the lathe. I used brass hex stock because I got a great deal on it, machines like a dream and won't mar the table. You could use Al instead, make up a bunch with some thin and thick ones. Jim ------- Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 01:08:40 -0000 From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: The Brown Truck Delivereth: 4-inch Quick Vise My 4-inch Quick Vise, that I ordered late last week, was delivered, just a few minutes ago, by The Brown Truck. They fixed "my" truck's characteristic squeel so now my dawg Shirley doesn't recognize it and no longer barks in recognition. The vise is a simple & solid little beast. It is the design that apparently was "invented" for use on the now ubiquitous mini-mills, many of which are Sieg of China creations. It cost me $40 plus $10 for The Brown Truck. The lever "push-down" adjustment and locking mechanism is unique: I've never held one in my hands B4. While the machining is simplified from steel, I couldn't have purchased the materials to build one myself for the price I paid for it plus the shipping costs. To me it looks like it is readly adaptable for 7- inch shaper use. The base plate can be removed (machine screws) and be provided with a pivot-bolt for use on AMMCO or SB's, or it can be adapted with a swivel base of appropriate diameter--I recently got a cheap vise swivel base off of eBay with a smallish ring diameter of about 5-inches. I haven't decided that I will adapt it as of yet. Since both front and rear jaws are removeable and simply machined from stock steel, they could be, if desired, replaced with wider ones- -maybe 5-inchers for a Logan or Shape-Rite and 7-inchers for a Lewis. http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php? ProductID=1145 (You may have to glue this together in the address box) For those needing a vise, this may be a quick, simple, and inexpensive solution...until that vise of your dreams...a manufacturers' OEM vise...materializes miraculously before your eyes delivered directly to you by Peter Pan him/her/it-self. Until the wave of that magic wand, you could be making chips...on the cheap. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 22:04:04 -0000 From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: T-Slotted Table Plate???? For those of you who may wish to have a T-slotted table adaptor plate, to fit your "Fabulous-7" that might not have T-slots, consider the mill table that http://www.littlemachineshop.com offers. It is the type table that some 3-in-1 machines are fitted with and is approximately 9.5 x 4.25 inches rectangular by 1 inch thick: $23 plus shipping -- part number: #1664. I'm thinking.... I now have a OEM Lewis vise...but for those jobs that need to be clamped to a T-slotted table....???? Art (Houston) ------- Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 00:37:31 -0500 From: RichD Subject: Re: Sherline Mill Vice - Strength of, Slippage in > The Sherline 5400 Mill s a fine small tool, especially with the DRO, > but I often wish the Mill Vice were stronger. The compressive force > is exerted by a #10-32 screw, nothing more. I've occasionally had a > part pull up between the vice jaws during milling, with the result > that one end gets milled a few hundredths deeper than the other. > This doesn't happen very often, but, when it does, is most annoying. > I have a solution that I'll be trying out over the next few days. If > I like the results, I'll post a photo of it. Meanwhile, does anybody > have a vice solution or a vice improvement that they'd like to > share? --Mike Mike, this even happens with $650.00 Kurt vises! The trick is to have a -parallel sided part centered in the vise or -equal thickness material on each side or -a small area piece (shim, packer) between the moveable jaw and the part -paper between the material and jaws helps with grip Anytime the jaws are not parallel, extreme pressure will still not hold. All the force is concentrated on one corner. Uneven forces causes extreme wear in the vise ways. RichD ------- Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 07:40:18 -0500 From: "Jerry Glickstein" Subject: Re: Sherline Mill Vice - Strength of, Slippage in The most common cause of your problem is the work is not really parallel or the vise jaws are not. So the clamping force is not distributed evenly. Here is a trick I use. It is very effective. I cut two sectors from a gear with fine teeth. Grind the flat surfaces. Now, you put the work in the vise up against the solid jaw. Place the gear clamp (for want of a better name)between the moveable jaw and the work. Now, the two flat surfaces are against the moveable jaw and the work. Clamp the vise, using the screw. The gear will compensate for the mismatch, within reason. Works like a charm. Let me know how you make out, please. Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) p.s. [in follow-up message] ...the only thing contacting the work and the movable (Clamping) jaw is the finely ground flat surface of the gear sector. So no marring with any material. The teeth of the gear sectors must mesh with each other to be effective. gearsectors Something like this......... solidjaw=])([=moveablejaw Usually horizontal with the part on parallels, but can be used vertically for holding a part to finish the end by end milling or flycutting. ------- Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 14:29:42 -0000 From: "grouchy_old_fred" Subject: Re: Sherline Mill Vice - Strength of, Slippage in a brief note in addition to Rich's excellent advice: Make certain the screw is aligned as much as possible with the direction you want it to apply force - as "flat" as possible. Otherwise it is wasting too much force clamping the moving jaw to the vise base. Another possibility is to use a Woodruff key as a backing plate on the moving jaw side, with the jaw pushing on the rounded edge of the key. That allows movement to compensate for any non-parallelism in the workpiece, or in the jaw faces for that matter. Fred ------- Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 09:24:53 -0800 From: Alan Marconett KM6VV Subject: Re: Sherline Mill Vice - Strength of, Slippage in If you can clamp it from the top, then clamping it to a tooling plate with stepped clamps is useful. OR, clamp it from the sides with a 6" machinist's clamp, and secure the clamp with stepped clamps. A four jaw chuck is often superior in clamping, as it clamps from four sides. Secure a 4 jaw chuck to the ways, and try that. Parts can also be clamped to a right angle secured to the ways. Alan KM6VV ------- Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 05:32:16 -0500 From: "Jerry Glickstein" Subject: Re: Sherline Mill Vice - Strength of, Slippage in From: Jim Izzolo >>> Jerry you never cease to amaze me. You have so much information. I am glad I get to read what you say. How long have you been a machinist? You should write a book for us novices. Thanks for all the help you have given us. Jim I <<< Jim: The simple answer to your question? I was (am) a machinist (toolmaker) for about fifty years. I stayed awake, so I learned. The complete answer? I went to Machine and Metal Trades Vocational High School in Manhattan, New York. I was taught machine shop practices which included drafting, patternmaking, casting, welding, heat treatment of metals. Etc. Excellent school. Then, the rude awakening. I graduated and went to get a job. Ran into catch 22. No experience, no job. No job, so how do I get experience? :( So, I took a job as a helper. Ran a punch press. Very dangerous. Very noisy. Bad for the health of one's ears. Before OSHA. Terrible conditions. I got lucky. One of the guys in the two man toolroom got sick and had to be out of work. I told the foreman I knew how to run the milling machines, shapers, surface grinders, etc. I then proceeded to re -learn all I had been taught. In those days, the toolmakers hid their work under a shop cloth at night. To protect their livelihood, I suppose. Not conducive for learning for a novice. So, You cut metal, you make mistakes, you learn what works and what doesn't. I promised myself if I ever got good enough, I would give back and help anyone I could. I became Chieftoolmaker for Bulova Systems and Instruments, a division of Bulova Watch Co. 140 toolmakers when I started in 1967. (Those guys were awesome!) Worked for Loral Fairchild during the Gulf War. Made Weapons of Mass Destruction. Yes, America has them too! Made the internal television cameras that are still working on the Space Shuttle. (best way to get rid of your mistakes, send them out of this world) :) Well, I flew with the "Blue Angels" of toolmaking. Hey, This sounds like a damn resume. :) Let me amaze you again. There is a great device for clamping, other than a vise. I am not in my house right now where my Model Shop is. In my girlfriend's house where I have my second computer I will send you the details when I return there. "All work and no play makes "Jerry" a dull boy". :) It is a commercial product made for securing type plates for printers. Has a gear key that drives a wedge, self aligning. Holds like grim death. Best Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) Available 24/7 to anybody who needs my help. 718-969-2236 69-10 174 Street Fresh Meadows, NY 11365 ------- Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:45:46 -0000 From: "variousgroups" Subject: Re: Jerry G's gear-sector, vice slippage solution Jerry-- Right, now I see it, your gear-sector method. Very nice. Needs a vice with more available gap, I have a feeling, than the little Sherline vice offers. I should think that you would want a fairly thickish gear, as well, maybe 1/2" or so, from which to cut your sectors. The clamping pressure would otherwise tend to urge the sectors skew, with potentially eye-popping consequences. Large thick gears can get to be expensive, though. Perhaps this is a good opportunity for gear makers to sell off their seconds as specials. What you do make of my "Sherline sized" solution? I posted it in the photos section in the folder labeled MillVice. -Mike ------- Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 01:49:31 -0000 From: "variousgroups" Subject: Mill Vice -- Very Useful Improvement -- See Photos Used vice improvement today for first time on must get right piece for client -- used slitting saw to trim 3/16" off the end of a 3/4" diameter, thick-wall, aluminum tube. Worked very well, indeed. I would not have attempted the cut using the Sherline vice on its own, without the improvement. See the four photos of the improvement in the new folder titled Mill Vice Hold Downs - Mike ------- Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 21:13:28 -0500 From: "Jerry Glickstein" Subject: Re: Mill Vice -- Very Useful Improvement -- See Photos Mike, I have an improvement for your improvement. Use helicoils instead of direct tapping of the aluminum jaws. Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) P.S. You will have to correct the location of the outboard holes by single point boring to prevent breakout at the left and right ends of the top of the vise jaw. ------- Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 03:02:18 -0000 From: "variousgroups" Subject: Re: Mill Vice -- Very Useful Improvement -- See Photos Jerry -- Helicoils are for thread repair. How do you see them assisting here? Tapping went well, no breakout on either side. There is plenty of material for these six or eight, 10-32 threads. I do not see the breakout problem. There probably would be a breakout problem if you used helicoils, because the helicoils require larger holes. But then, what is to hold the helicoils themselves in place? Thus far, the results of the improvement have been excellent. Remember, you do not have to apply much torque to gain the benefit of these hold downs. You do not need to. Snug is enough. The vice does the lion's share of the work. These holddowns merely block the residual vertical forces from causing the work to ride up by relatively slight amounts. In sherlinex~xxyahoogroups.com, "keith green" wrote: >>> Helicoils are not only for thead repair. Most machine-builders use them on new parts these days because they are stronger and longer- wearing than a tapped thread. If it does get damaged somehow (unlikely), you just whip it out of there with needlenose and in goes a new one. Especially in aluminum. If retention is a problem(not usual), loctite it. <<< Remember, this is a Sherline application! Sherline is not meant for large loads. People use Sherline's aluminum tooling plate entirely satisfactorily, clamping stock on it with Sherline's little holddowns and often with only a few threads of grip. Sherline's tooling plate uses absolutely no such thing as a helicoil. The vice improvement is excellent just as it is, in our Sherline, miniature mill context. For a standard tool room application, sure, you would want to beef up the improvement, as Jerry suggested. But not here. Why over engineer something, when you could be working with it, enjoying its benefits? Mike ------- Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 05:58:41 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: Mill Vice -- Very Useful Improvement -- See Photos To all, I have been following the vice thread with interest and would encourage anyone to do what ever works for them. However wether using my Sherline vise or my large Kurt vise I have also a little problem holding something square from time to time. If I have needed to machine something critical, I have tapped the front and back of the work piece down against parallels while tighting the vise. This has always held the work as square as the parallels and the bottom of the vice. As far as I can remember I have never had a work piece move while machining that was properly tightened in the vice. Also I have never been a big fan of the Sherline endmill holder. The largest end mill that I use in the Sherline is a 1/4" held in a MT taper collet held up close to the spindle nose of the mill. At least for me this reduces a lot of vibration and decreases the chances of having the work piece move in the vice regardless of the type. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 06:05:59 -0500 From: "Jerry Glickstein" Subject: Re: Re: Mill Vice -- Very Useful Improvement -- See Photos Mike: Helicoils are for many things, only one of which is thread repair. My intention was to provide a steel thread instead of aluminum to prevent stripping from constant usage, not the strength. My reference to the boring to correct location was to allow for the larger size hole required for the helicoil tap. With a .250" edge to center location, and a radius of about .094" for the 10-32 thread, that leaves about .156" of material at each outboard edge of the vise. You ask what is used to hold the helicoils in place. Helicoils are inserted with a tool made for the purpose and drives them by the tang. In so doing, the helicoil is compressed while inserting and expands when installed creating enough friction to secure them. My normal procedure, repeated many times over many years was to clamp my work in the vise, Sherline or otherwise. Tap the workpiece down to insure intimate contact with the parallels which were always used. This is checked by pushing each parallel to ensure it was snug and would not move, thereby proving the piece was sitting parallel also. If I found one parallel was loose because the piece was not seated or not square, I repeated the famous phrase, "get a bigger hammer", or took the piece out and clamped it to a angle plate or toolmakers knee (not found on a toolmaker's leg :) and was then able to machine the part to the accuracy required. The key here is application. Never work more closely than is required, in regard to how the part is going to be used. In toolroom practice, the normal tolerance for parallelism or squareness is plus or minus .0002" in six inches. In ship modeling, the requirements are not so strict. But, in my mind, good shop practice yields great results, Whether one is operating a Sherline or one of the behemoths that I used to run while gainfully employed. :) (Names furnished upon request) Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 15:34:45 -0500 From: "Jerry Glickstein" Subject: Re: Re: Mill Vice -- Very Useful Improvement -- See Photos I have improved the Sherline vise in a different way, not having to have had to add hold down capability. I built in a "vise stop". Drilled and tapped into the ends of the vise. Made a plate to bolt on and carry a drill blank ground on the end to function as a stop for accurate repetition of parts clamped in the vise. The plate has a lock screw to fasten the drill blank (stop). Also, a similar stop that clamps to the table and has adjustments for all movements so a pin stop can be placed in the vise near the solid jaw and ensure accurate placement of holes, etc. from the reference surfaces, X and Y. Universal, so I can register pieces both left and right side of vise. Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 11:02:48 -1000 (HST) From: benedictx~xxhawaii.rr.com Subject: Re: Vise recommendations On Tue, 27 Apr 2004, Tom Wightman wrote:> Hi all > I'm interested in opinions on the most useful size of machine vise for > the Taig mill. If it makes a difference I'm mostly concerned with the > extended X-axis machine (2019). Any and all opinions gratefully > received. Tom W. I like the toolmaker's vises Enco sells. I got one on Nick's reccomendation and have never had cause to regret getting it. I use a really nice Kurt II vise at work, and absolutely positively love the action on it. It easily weighs twice what my entire Taig CNC setup weighs, electronics and all. It'd crush the poor beastie. BUT! At some point I'd love to make some scale reproductions of a couple of Kurt vises that'd be sized for a Taig. I know this isn't exactly answering the question you asked, but I'd love to hear feedback on the idea. Some things I like about the toomaker's vise, some things I don't: The thing is doggedly square. I've tested it a couple of times and have to think I got a good one. I wish I'd picked up parallels when I bought the vise. My wife, being a good craftsperson herself, bought me a set of small parallels from The Little Machine Shop as a present. Love 'em. The vise I use at work has replaceable jaw faces. One set has a step at the top so you can hold thin things without having to break out the parallels every time. I've seen a toolmaker's vise that had this feature. It's a neat feature, but given the choice I'd want it both ways. This would either mean replaceable jaw faces (unlikely on a toolmaker's vise) or two vises, one with the step and one without. The vise I've got has V-grooves to hold small cylinders. They run vertically and horizontally. This is Neat (capital N). But at times I wish I just had two smooth faces. Again, this goes back to the changeable jaw face issue. Alas, to get what I want I'd need THREE vises. In addition to a vise, also take a look at a nice set of hold-down clamps. I made some out of scrap aluminum. At some point I need to make a new set that's got honest to goodness step blocks and everything else that goes along with a set of hold-down clamps. I use 'em as much as I use the vise. You vise choice will, of course, be dictated by the size of the machine, but also needs to take into account the size of the work you're doing. So far between my vise and my clamps I've been able to handle the bulk of what I do. At times I could see the utility of having two vises to work on long stuff, though alignment's a bear (it's possible... I've done it when I had a whole stack of big things to dink with, but it's a bit of a pain.) When you get outside the range of what you can do with vises and clamps, be it in terms of size, shape, structural integrity, or what have you, you start making custom fixtures for each job. Works great, eats material and time, but it works great. I tend to resort to shimming things in the vise or with clamps rather than cut custom fixtures unless I'm making a lot of a given part. But sometimes there's no workable alternative. I'm rambling... I'll quit. Tom ------- Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 11:46:11 -0400 From: Tom Wightman Subject: Re: Re: Vise recommendations asrpas wrote: > Hi Tom, > Pl have a look on CARR LANE catalogue, they may not have a > vise you want but got a big range of clamping devices. Thier clamping > range is focused on large machines but very handy to get ideas to > make your own workholding devices, specially they got CAD drawings of > all the products. Site is http://www.carrlane.com/ > I got a copy of their thick catalogue and must recommend if you can > grab a free copy from your nearest dealer. By the way I have no > association with them just my views...Hopefully that helps. Thanks Rick I used to have a copy of Carr-Lane's paper catalogue many years ago (pre internet days). I had forgotten all about them, so it's good to be reminded that they are still around. And you're right - catalogues are a great source of ideas and information, quite apart from their use in actually buying stuff! From looking at their web site it appears that their catalogue cover hasn't changed very much - maybe not at all - from the copy I had about 20 years ago. I guess they like to maintain a strong, consistent corporate image. Regards Tom W. ------- Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 06:01:18 -0400 From: "Jerry Glickstein" Subject: Re: Looking for larger vise to use with my 2000 mill [sherline group] >>> I've had my Sherline 2000 for a couple of years now and I'm starting to get the hang of it. Most of my machine work centers on milling polyurethane and other plastic components so I'm not really pushing the limits of the machine materials wise. However, I've come across a couple of situations where a larger jaw opening in my vise would be a welcome plus. There have been several cases where I've had to remove the aluminum pads from the vise in order to fit my piece in. Does anyone have a recommendation for a good vise that would be a larger step up from the Sherline 3551? I love my vise and use it very often but have a use for a slightly larger one too. Any ideas? Thanks, Terry Wellman <<< Terry, check out the 4" Quick Vise at little machine shop.com. Sounds like what you want. Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 08:34:58 -0700 From: "Marcus and Eva" Subject: Re: Re: Looking for larger vise to use with my 2000 mill Hi All: I've got to stir the pot on this issue too. Why don't you just MAKE one??? You've got all the equipment you need, and a vise is not a complex project. If you build it yourself, you'll get exactly what you need, and likely of better quality than you could buy. Tool and die makers build these all the time, and for that very reason. Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 09:14:20 -0700 From: Wayde Gutman Subject: Re: Larger Vise What I have done, instead of buying or making a new vise, is to make soft jaws to fit the Sherline vise. Another approach would be, in one of the shops that I had worked in, I have used a vise that was in two pieces, solid jaw that mounted onto the t-slot of the mill, and the 'clamping rail', for the lack of a better description, that could be mounted in the t-slot of choice. It was a bit time consuming to set up, as you need to indicate the jaws to assure squareness. There is another idea I have considered off and on, cutting the sherline vise, making a custom base, and the vise having more flexibility to suit the job, instead of the other way around. My main concern with this idea is rigidity. Wayde Gutman ------- Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 10:21:21 -0700 From: Alan Marconett Subject: Re: Looking for larger vise to use with my 2000 mill Hi Terry, not everything needs a vice to hold it! Try a tooling plate, and stepped clamps. I've found them very versatile, and use them more then my vice. Alan KM6VV ------- Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 17:44:22 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: Looking for larger vise to use with my 2000 mill Jerry and Marcus I happen to know Terry is in a commercial venture and most likely has specialized needs. I also wanted to get the boring details before making a stupid suggestion on line. (I have had a few good ones in the past.) Marcus, you are correct about the only way to get a larger Sherline- friendly vice would be to build one. However I suspect in Terry`s case time is a very large issue. I built a 2" copy of a standard Kurt vise and evan as simple as they are I have about 25 hours in it. ( Ok I am slow ) On a Kurt vise you can remount the removable jaws on the rear of the movable and stationary jaw. When mounted they will stick up above the top of the jaws allowing you to clamp large items on top of the jaws. With the construction of a couple of imple steel jaws the same arrangement can be set up on the Sherline vise. It will not work for all applications but where it will you will have at least a 3-1/2" opening. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 11:52:32 -0700 From: Alan Marconett Subject: Re: Re: Looking for larger vise to use with my 2000 mill Hi Marcus, list, This is a good idea! A while back I was toying with making up a set of modular clamping faces for my shop-made tooling plate. I have holes on a 1/2" grid pattern. Little "angle blocks", some with moveable jaws, would allow clamping on more then one face. So far, the stepped clamping blocks (Step Block Hold-down #3013) have been a good start. I also recently had the need to make 8-32 T-nuts, not hard, and solved a tricky perimeter milling job on a baseplate. Now I'm thinking of making an 8-32 tooling plate as well! Rudy Kouhoupt's book, and other "shop wisdom" books have plans for small vices. Everyone should have one little vice! Alan KM6VV ------- Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 14:54:09 -0400 From: "Jerry Glickstein" Subject: Re: Looking for larger vise to use with my 2000 mill Alan, have you ever used the table for a vise base? Put a couple of pins in the slots, or a rail clamped to the table. Put your work on the table between the pins or rail and clamp with Quoins .....or toe clamps. Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 12:12:14 -0700 From: Alan Marconett Subject: Re: Looking for larger vise to use with my 2000 mill Hi Jerry, Quoins? Did a quick search, sounds like it may be associated with printing or picture frames? This sounds interesting, Toe clamps gave a pix: http://www.invert-a-bolt.com/shop_cmc12.shtml That would be something to make. Seems like someone posted pix of ones they'd made a while back. Wish I could find the drawing, but I've got the idea. Sounds like my "moveable jaw". Alan KM6VV ------- Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 15:15:56 -0400 From: "Jerry Glickstein" Subject: Re: Looking for larger vise to use with my 2000 mill Alan, Yes, The toe clamps are what I meant and used. Very effective. Quoins are special clamps for holding type in a printing press. Use a rack and gear to drive wedges to expand the clamp. Very effective. Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 15:21:19 -0400 From: "Roy J. Tellason" Subject: Re: Looking for larger vise to use with my 2000 mill > Put your work on the table between the pins or rail and > clamp with Quoins.....or toe clamps. What are these? And while I'm at it, what's a "tooling plate"? ------- Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 15:59:19 -0400 From: "Jerry Glickstein" Subject: Re: Looking for larger vise to use with my 2000 mill Roy, Quoins are special clamps used in the printing industry to secure type to the printing press platen. They are heavy, u shaped, with longitudinal grooves in the faces, a gear and gear rack drives wedges to expand the clamp. The handle is a gear that goes into an internal gear to activate the clamp. A tooling plate is any plate that can be clamped to a milling machine to protect the milling machine table, and provides many handy tapped holes to accommodate clamps, etc. Sherline sells them. Many machinists make them as a matter of course in the production of work requirements. The basic requirement for a tooling plate is stability and a flat parallel surface which is why they are commonly made from aluminum tool and jig plate, etc. Usually cast material. This eliminates having to machine a large surface before putting your work on the plate. I have used them frequently. On a rotary table, they are very good because you can mill your work right around the diameter while work holes and screws clamp your work to the table. Did I answer your questions? Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 14:51:57 -0700 From: Alan Marconett Subject: Re: Looking for larger vise to use with my 2000 mill Hi Roy, Ah! You gotta have a tooling plate! Sherline has 'em, or you can make your own out of 1/2" cast aluminum (or even 6061-T6). Basically, it's a plate of aluminum wider then the X axis, and any length you like. 3.5" wide or so, and 12" long or so would be nice. I used what I had! Then drill a hole pattern however you like, mine is 10-32 on 1/2" centers. Sherline has a few fewer holes, and you drill "special" locations whenever needed. Four or 6 countersunk holes for 10-32's hold it down to the ways with T-nuts. A slight countersink is also needed on the underside to clear the T-nuts. I think I posted a pix on SherlineCNC, but Yahoo is funny right now. See another message in the thread for Quoins and toe-clamps. Alan KM6VV ------- Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 01:10:00 -0000 From: "Antonius J.M. Groothuizen" Subject: Re: Looking for larger vise to use with my 2000 mill Roy: I started with 2 lift plates, basicly mini tooling plates. 52 holes in each 3.25" X 6" plate, 16 counterbored both sides for #10 SHCS / T-Nuts, the remainder tapped #10-32. I use these to 'lift' material over the stepper motors / X-Axis handwheel. I used these to machine an 18" X 6" 4-slot table. Why so large? It gives me room to use the rotary table, and lots of clamping flexibility. A handy piece of angle aluminium bolts to the table. The riser has #4-40 holes tapped every 1/2 inch. This is used to help me align a workpiece along the X-Axis. It works like a charm, saving lots of frustration. Tony ------- Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 15:38:30 -0700 From: Alan Marconett Subject: Re: Right-angle plate [sherline group] Hi Bob, I'll try to address your questions. Bob Ellis wrote: > My apologies for troubling the group with some very basic questions > from a complete novice. We're all novices at some time! I'm certainly still learning! > Partly to gain some experience and partly because I have a use for > some squared up aluminium and brass blocks, I plan to follow through > step-by-step the advice on squaring up a block on pages 205-7 of > Joe Martin's "Tabletop Machining". I have all the accessories necessary > except the right-angle plate (part no.3559). It states on page 186 that > they are "relatively inexpensive and could be considered disposable". > I don't know about you guys, but on my income I am rather alarmed by > something that costs about $100 (or about Ł110 sterling by the time it > has been shipped to England) being described as disposable. What does > this mean? Will I need to find another Ł110 sterling shortly to > replace it? The blocks are a good choice, great for setups. Yeah, it's expensive! By "disposable", they mean its OK to punch a few holes in it, and the occasional "oops" is not a problem. You can afford to drill and tap holes where ever needed. it'll last a long time. [NOTE: or you could substitute other less expensive right angle plates from other suppliers or modify some aluminium scrap. Every time you make a tool, you gain more resources and skills to make better tools or jigs, and finally stuff that is unrelated to machine shop tools, like ornaments and candle sticks so that the better half will finally admit there is some practical advantage to your expensive toys ...tools.] > It also says on page 186 that "a few holes drilled and tapped in the > vertical part of the plate can make them easier to use". Could someone > please explain how it makes the right-angle plate easier to use? If > the holes are to be in the vertical plane, they cannot be for securing > the right-angle plate to a tool plate, so what is their purpose and > where on the plate should they be drilled? The holes would be horizontal, through the vertical part of the plate, thus giving you threaded holes to use the Step Block Hold-down Set, P/N 3013. I'd make a pattern of holes in the vertical part of the plate, say on a 1/2" hole pattern? > I have never cut a thread so, if this is necessary, I would appreciate > some advice on the best way to do so. Do I need to invest in the > thread-cutting attachent for my lathe? Should the holes be drilled or > bored before tapping? Presumably the thread is to take Sherline screws, > but what thread do these require? Is it best to use the lathe for > tapping or should I do it by hand using a tap wrench...Am I even > asking the right questions??? I'd disassemble the right-angle plate, clamp the vertical part flat and square on the ways (with packing underneath), and drill a grid of 10-32 tapping holes (#21 drill bit). This can be done accurately by using the handwheels to "count over" each 1/2" step. Once all the holes are drilled, A tap can be chucked, and the draw bar removed (loosen the taper of the chuck also). Then position over each hole again, and lower the tap until it just touches entering a hole. As the chuck's taper mandrel is not tight in the taper of the spindle, it will draw out as you start the tap. You can either tap all the way through, or just sufficient to get the tap started. Use some aluminum tapping fluid. Lotta holes! I do some as I need them, and some later. > I have tried looking up the answers to these questions in the various > books I have on machining, but they have not been of much help. Any > assistance would be much appreciated so that I don't waste my limited > financial resources buying the wrong things or maybe buy the right > things but do the wrong things with them! TIA Bob Ellis The machinist's vice can also be used to hold stock. I'd suggest buying this first, if you don't already have it. In using the vice, put the stock up against the fixed jaw. Put packing below the stock and a small piece (1/4" x 1/4" x 3") between the stock and the moveable jaw. This prevents the jaw from pulling the stock out of square with the fixed jaw. Alan KM6VV ------- Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 06:18:38 -0400 From: "Jerry G" Subject: Re: Re: Right-angle plate In sherlinex~xxyahoogroups.com, "Bob Ellis" wrote: > A big thank you to all who responded to my questions. Naturally, > there are some different views and I decided to sleep on it > before deciding which route to follow. For the moment, I have > decided to go with a low cost option that will enable me to start > the project in question with the minimum of delay. Therefore, I > am planning to order a stepped angle plate from a firm here in > the UK called Chronos at a cost of Ł40 sterling. It is a 3" x 3" > x 3" stepped angle plate made from alloy steel that has been > hardened and ground, the accuracy and flatness of which is > claimed to be within 0.002" per 6". It also has an array of 1/4" > tapped holes on each face. Anyone see any problem with this choice? >> Wait..... that is not low cost enough. You may not need that type of accuracy at this stage? Also as a learner (or not) it is really easy to dig a cutter into it :( I would still save myself 39 pounds (for something else) by taking an engineer's square along to the engineering metal supply place and look in the cutoffs bin, choose a chunk of angle which is the squarest, as well as various other size pieces you will need on your shelf, and then file/sand/mill it clean and drill all sorts of holes through it. When you get a feel for the size and accuracy you want then go for the commercial stuff if you feel it is warranted. Rob << Rob, Bob, That really is an excellent idea because, besides saving some money, it will give you (Bob) some real experience of making something you will use and gaining independence. Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 21:38:47 -0600 From: Ken Grunke Subject: Re: Re: Right-angle plate I learned a neat trick in one of Guy Lautard's books (Machinists Bedside Reader) on how to square off a rough angle plate, a block, or any two surfaces needing to be at exactly 90 degrees. An accurately machined (and ground, ideally) cylinder, if of equal diameter from end to end, and faced off on one end, will sit exactly square on a flat surface all the way around. This is known as a cylinder square (not an oxymoron in this case) and is used by tool and die makers to check the accuracy of "square" squares. Two of these cylinders bolted to a milling table or to a known flat faceplate, with the first reference surface of an angle plate or block clamped against these cylinders, make it possible to mill or turn the surface facing the cutter square. A good source of accurately machined and ground cylinders of many different sizes are piston wrist pins. They are hollow to allow a long clamp bolt from the milling table T-slot to a washer or plate at the top end. I turned two 3" pieces of common 2" x 1/4" angle iron this way on my Compact 8 lathe, bolted together on each side of 2 cylinders attached to a faceplate. It's necessary to have the headstock perfectly perpendicular (say that fast 10 times LOL) to the crosslide for this to work. And if you don't trust your mill table's accuracy, attach an aluminum auxilliary table to it, and take a light milling cut to get a new, flat surface. What if your mill headstock isn't square to the table? Use a cylinder square to align it, with, for example, a piece of straight 3/8" drill rod held in an end mill holder in the headstock. [WARNING: NEXT > PARAGRAPH WAS AFTERWARDS CORRECTED; SEE Woops BELOW] >Hopefully the rod is accurately in line with the spindle--you can check >that with the cylinder square also. Using a backlight to look at the >very thin line between the cylinder and what you're checking allows you >to see the slightest amount of out-of-squareness. Woops. If your 3/8" drill rod is NOT held squarely in the headstock, then squaring up the rod to the table will put the headstock out of alignment. Sherline's end mill holder is likely accurately machined enough to not be a problem, so you only need to make sure the drill rod is truly straight. The best way would be to machine between centers a straight shaft, with a Morse taper #1 to fit the mill's headstock. To do that, of course, you need a lathe that is accurately lined up between headstock and tailstock. So, you gotta turn a test bar between centers to see if one end is a different diameter than the other, and adjust the tailstock setover if necessary. Instead of turning the whole length of a test bar, you rough-turn down the middle section to leave two collars at each end--so it goes quicker, and there's less chance of the cutter moving or wearing down a couple tenths of a thou while cutting along the whole length. For my lathe test bar I use an arbor threaded on both ends, holding aluminum discs. So I take a slow, light turning cut with a sharp bit on each one, then check them with a tenths micrometer. Still, the last time I did this, it took about 45 minutes to get the tailstock adjusted and locked right on center because I was going for a tolerance of .0002" (two tenths of a thou) which might have wasted more of my time than necessary. All this stuff is in many books, and in the heads of experienced tool & die makers like Jerry G and many others --but if there's just one person that benefits from what I've outlined here then hopefully it was worth it telling at least half of those on this list what you already know :-) Ken Grunke http://www.crwoodturner.com/ken/toolshop/index.html ------- NOTE TO FILE: Is a lathe center/centre properly called live or dead? This came up again recently, so you may (or might not) care to read my take on this nomenclature. A lathe's center/centre workholding device may be called "live" or "dead" when stuck into the lathe depending on which end of the lathe, or the era machinists were trained, or in which country, or how argumentative they feel on a given day. For purposes of current practicality, a center/centre as found in a supply catalog/catalogue will be listed as "dead" if its shank and point are fixed in relation to one another. It does not matter which end of the lathe you use it in. When such a device is plugged firmly into the headstock, it rotates with the headstock and drives the workpiece to also rotate. When the exact same device is plugged firmly into a lathe's tailstock, it does not turn with the workpiece and so needs good lubricant on the point to allow the workpiece to spin freely. One will be listed as "live" if the pointy-work-end can spin relative to its shank, usually because there are ball bearings in its structure between the shank part and the point part. Such a device is always used in the tailstock. The shank stays still and the point rotates, driven by the workpiece. No lube needed on the point. And for anyone who wants to argue these terms some more, there are lots of other folks in machinist groups also having a bad day who will oblige :-) ------- Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 15:43:59 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: Mill vise [sherline group] Blake, for general machining on a Sherline size mill, I think you will find that the Sherline vice will cover your concerns about as well as anything. Some time ago I was looking for a vice that would hold slightly larger stock to be used on my Sherline mill. What I found was that they were either too large, too heavy, too high and or had mounting issues. Also the lower cost imports had quality problems I was not willing to accept. I ended up building a 2.200" scale copy of a Kurt vice that resolved these problems. However a list of desires is rarely cheap. Had I not had the metal for this vice it alone would have cost well over $100.00 retail. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 20:08:47 -0000 From: "Jim Knighton" Subject: Re: Mill vise "bmp84414" wrote: > Has anyone found a good alternative mill vise that they prefer > over the Sherline vise? Blake, Jerry Keifer is one of the finest artists in the world when it comes to this stuff, and his needs are perhaps more exacting than for the rest of us. I respect his opinion and have relied on his advice time and again. On this point, however, have to disagree. To tell the truth, I don't like the Sherline vise at all. I bought one, used it for a year or so, and then gave it away. I had nothing but problems with it. Maybe I'm a ham-fisted klutz, but I don't think so. I've corresponded with others who weren't happy with the Sherline vise and their experience mirrored my own. My alternative solution is the nominal 2" screwless vise from Little Machine Shop (www.littlemachineshop.com). It opens a bit wider than the Sherline, is of steel (not aluminum) construction, and for me, at least, is substantially easier to use. While the Sherline is also of the screwless design, IMHO, it is decidedly inferior to this asian import on most counts. I discovered that it is exactly the same width as the Sherline vise, and consequently was very easy to adapt to their rotating mill vise base. There is a photo of my setup in the Photos section of the forum archives in a folder bearing my name. Look in a subfolder titled 5400 horizontal mill. If you don't use the Sherline rotating base, you will have to make some mounting clips to fasten them to the milling table. LMS has plans for these on their website. This setup works so well that I have three of these configured exactly alike. I have one for each of my Sherline mills, and have found that they hold securely, are relatively easy to align (no more difficult that my own 6" Kurt), etc. The price isn't exorbitant, either. I don't know the current pricing, but all three of mine were under $50 each. Regards, Jim ------- Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 12:16:40 -0800 From: Alan Marconett Subject: Re: Re: Mill vise HI Blake, also consider a tooling plate and step clamps, or home made clamps to suit your need. If so inclined, you can even make your own tooling plate, drill it anyway you want! If the Sherline vice fits your needs, use it! If you are looking for a project, or have special needs for a vice and have the materials, you could make one as Jerry did. Jerry makes good points as well! Alan KM6VV ------- Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 22:00:27 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: Mill vise Jim: First thank you for the very kind words. However there is no way I could ever live up to those statements even if everyone lived a least a thousand miles from my basement. Even though it is greatly appreciated you do not need kind words to disagree with a Bullheaded opinionated German. We each have to find what works best for us for what we wish to do. I think you are one of the best examples of that on this list. At one time I did order one of the vices similar to yours. As I recall it came from MSC and cost about $75.00. I had two problems with it. First it was hardened and was not ground square. At the time I did not have a grinder to grind it square. Second it was very time consuming removing and replacing the locking pin for jaw adjustment. I also hated this design on the early Sherline vise. I also appreciate your perspective. It is always good to relook at things from time to time. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 22:39:21 -0000 From: "Jim Knighton" Subject: Re: Mill vise Jerry, again, thanks for the kind words... As you say, the best solution is the one that works in our own shops. I haven't had problems with the locking pins until just yesterday, of all things. I took the vise apart and used a bit of locktite to keep the pin from sliding laterally and into the holes on the body's side. With this simple mod they now work quite well. At least the model I have has a spring that keeps the locking post/pin in contact with the underside with the body, a feature that the Sherline design lacks. To release, all I do is push down on the locking post/pin and reposition the jaw. When I release the pressure, the spring pushes the post/pin into the nearest "groove" (or whatever it is called) on the underside of the body and a few turns of the hex key locks it into position. It has more of these "grooves" than does the similarly sized Sherline and I think this is one of this design's greatest advantages. I found that the Sherline vise has only five or six locking grooves and this creates some dead spots in which I couldn't get a good grip without using shims, etc. as packing. This drove me nuts, for what it's worth, as did the soft aluminum construction. After a few weeks the finish was shot, and it just looked crappy, at least in my eyes. Neither of these are problems with these particular Asian imports. As for squareness, I'm not using these vises as holding fixtures to mount work in other machines, like large mills and grinders. If the exterior dimensions aren't perfectly square, it doesn't make any difference to me. The fixed jaw and the moveable jaws on these vises are in alignment, and more to the point, they are flat. My first 6" milling vise was an asian import that had a hump in the middle of the fixed jaw. I could dial in the ends so that they were right where they were supposed to be, but when measuring across the face the middle was bowed out by a bit more than .0015". It also wasn't flat with respect to the milling table. The Kurt doesn't have these problems, and neither do these small 2" vises (thank goodness). One of the big problems with Asian imports is their lack of consistency. While all three of my small vises are servicable, there are minor dimensional differences among all them. These differences aren't enough to affect how I use them, but clearly demonstrate that these aren't first rate goods. They work for what I use them for, and I don't have concerns recommending them as milling vises on the Sherline mills, but that's about as far as it goes. They ain't Kurts, that's for damned sure, but then they didn't cost that much either. Regards, Jim ------- Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 19:03:19 -0800 From: zephyrusx~xxrickadee.net Subject: Re: Mill vise Jerry K wrote: >square. Second it was very time consuming removing and replacing >the locking pin for jaw adjustment. I also hated this design on >the early Sherline vise. It is interesting how our perceptions differ, Jerry. I traded a recent Sherline vise for an earlier model, because I had endless trouble with the pin turning in the notches, getting caught in swarf, etc. I was never sure that the pin was properly seated in its grooves, and was always poking around in the base of the vise with dentist's probes, bent paper clips etc. to make sure it was seated. I like the earlier design. I have my vises (I have two of the earlier version which I use side-by-side) anchored with four holddowns each, and to change the pin position I at most need to remove one holddown, remove the pin, replace that holddown, remove the other holddown on that side, insert the pin in the new hole and replace the holddown. 30 seconds at the most. I bought the Enco 428-9010 3" screwless vise for my Techno-Isel gantry table based on my experience with the Sherline vise. I like it too :-) Best regards, Randy Randy Gordon-Gilmore http://www.prototrains.com ------- Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 04:52:27 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: Mill vise Randy, there have been several revisions to the Sherline vice over the years. I have had the same Pin problems that you were having in the earlier vices. I was not a happy camper as they say. This is one of several reasons I built the small Kurt copy some time ago. However the latest version that holds the pin square and in alignment at all times when clamped down has resolved those problems at least for me. Actually I still have the older vice that I ordered the latest pin and lock down screw for. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 16:43:59 -0500 From: Jim Ash Subject: Re: Re: Mill vise I just bought the same vice from Little Machine Shop for my Sherline mill at Cabin Fever, but I haven't mounted it up and cut anything with it yet, so I can't report on my success or failure. I was looking for something a little bigger than the Sherline vise, but I also wonder if the new vice hanging forward over the table might interfere with the Y-axis controls. Don't know yet. Jim Ash ------- Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 06:40:35 -0000 From: "Jim Knighton" Subject: Re: Mill vise Jim [Ash], for what it's worth, Several months ago I added the three slot milling table sold by Shopdawg to all three of my Sherline mills. With the additional height this offers I have no problems with overhang on the y axis, even with stepper mounts and motors. Maybe it's not a good solution for others, but it works well for me. Also, I have my vise mounted to Sherline's rotating base and this raises it up a bit as well. All-in-all, no problems. Regards, Jim Knighton ------- Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 11:42:29 -0800 From: zephyrusx~xxrickadee.net Subject: Re: Re: Mill vise Alan wrote: >New vice? I MUST have an old one, as mine is nearly 20 years old! It >has a pin, threaded at right angles for the hold-down screw. 5 >positions for the pin in the base. That's the style I have--fully remove the screw, slide the pin out the side and insert in a different hole if you're clamping a much-different- thickness part. >I looked on the Sherline site, but didn't see a newer pix. http://www.sherline.com/3551inst.pdf is the instruction sheet for the current vise. Instead of the old pin there is a disk with a lug on each side. The vise body has a central slot with notches for the lugs to fit in. You don't have to remove the hold-down screw fully to move the disk to a new notch. The older "new" style had the lugs central on the disk, and in my case the disk was always turning askew in the slot, which required me to fully remove the hold-down screw anyway to get the movable jaw out of the way far enough to re-register the disk. Best regards, Randy Randy Gordon-Gilmore http://www.prototrains.com ------- Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 12:46:19 -0800 From: Alan Marconett Subject: Re: Re: Mill vise Hi Randy, thanks for the link. It didn't come up when I searched for "vice" and Machinist's vice" yesterday. So is it better/worse then my own vice? I tend to use stepped clamps whenever possible, and fall back to the vice if I can't. A little bearing block with four holes and a slot in it, which didn't leave any top space open for clamps, is yesterday's example. I get by with the old vice, it gets a little awkward and I have to shift the pin position occasionally, but that's just a little chore. Is the newest vice the solution then? I haven't done any additional work on the idea, but we (the list) discussed making up clamping pieces that could be bolted onto a tooling plate. Toe pieces could come in very handy. Best regards, Alan KM6VV ------- Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 21:20:44 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: Mill vise Randy: On the latest vice design the pins can no longer rotate in the slots. As long as the vise is clamped to the table the pins will always remain parellel to the slots. This also eliminates the problem of finding a slot and properly seating the pin. At least for myself this has resolved the problems I had with the vise and has made it my choice for everyday general machining. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 20:43:27 +0100 From: Tim Angus Subject: Re: Mill T-Slot dimensions [taigtools hint applicable to all.] On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 12:15:50 -0700 Larry wrote: > Gotta remind him to not screw the bolt in further than the bottom of > the 1/2" x 1/4" Cold Rolled Steel or it will put jacking force on the > inside of the Tee Slot. Or, to bugger up the thread in the hole to > prevent that without thinking about it. When I made my T nuts I first used a pilot drill, slightly smaller than the tapping drill, and didn't take the tapping drill down the whole depth. I then used a plug tap. The end result is that bolts cannot poke themselves out of the underside of the T nuts. ------- Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 13:28:08 -1000 (HST) From: benedict-listx~xxhawaii.rr.com Subject: Re: Mill T-Slot dimensions One trick is to upset the bottom-most thread of the nut. This way the screw can't go out the bottom. Most of the clamp sets I've used on larger mills were given this treatment. It works well. Tom ------- Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 01:21:58 -0000 From: "jkeyser14" Subject: Re: Mill T-Slot dimensions I made t-nuts for my mill, and instead of upsetting the last thread, I just made them blind holes. Leave .050" on the bottom of the t-nut and you'll never have to worry about over-tightening. And as long as you make it the full t-shape, you'll have plenty of threads so you shouldn't strip them. ------- Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 18:58:33 +0100 From: Clive Foster Subject: Re: Mill T-Slot dimensions There is a lot to be said for making T-nuts out of a decently tough light alloy. Especially on a lightweight machine like the Taig. OK an alloy T-nut is easier to lunch than a steel one, but better a dead nut than a damaged table. Threads in alloy will wear faster than those in steel but I can't see that being a major issue for our levels of use. I reckon best practice is several sets of T-nuts with steel studs of various useful lengths semi-permanently fixed into them. Alternatively you could use a short basic stud and extend it with joining nuts and threaded rod as required. Whatever you do I'd consider dedicated nut & stud assemblies of just the right length for all your table fitting accessories vice, fourth axis and so on an essential part of the toolkit. There is a special corner of Hell, nice and close to the fire, reserved for people who use bolts in T-nuts. It's the sort of thing that has Mr. Murphy (of law fame) rubbing his hands in gleeful anticipation. Far too easy either not to get enough threads engaged for a proper grip or to lean just a bit too hard and push through the upset end thread or other device employed to stop things going right through. Not to mention the guy who uses the proper bolts to fix the lawnmower and jams in anything from the scrap box that sorta fits even if its the wrong thread. I know that nobody here would deliberately do anything that daft but I can also recall getting cigarette paper close to that sort of stupidity when my mind was on other parts of the job. Screwing studs in first and sliding the assembly down the slot is far safer. Recent experience suggests that not only has Mr Murphy invested in a computer he has also gone off on holiday and left his daughter in charge. ------- Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 16:41:10 -0400 From: Wayne Subject: Re: Re: Mill T-Slot dimensions At 01:58 PM 9/20/2005, you wrote: >Gotta remind him to not screw the bolt in further than the bottom of >the 1/2" x 1/4" Cold Rolled Steel or it will put jacking force on the >inside of the Tee Slot. Or, to bugger up the thread in the hole to This may not work for everyone but, I have been using 1/4" toilet flange bolts. The heads are just a little wide. A little dressing they slide right into the t-slots. They are brass, soft, and in my case work very well. Also cheap if you look around. Have cut several sizes. http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=24362-764 03-76-4211&lpage=none wayne ------- Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 15:32:21 -0400 From: Ken Jenkins Subject: Re: T-slot bolts http://www.rockler.com/ecom7/product_details.cfm?offerings_id=1573 These are probably too large but if you could find some smaller ones (10-32?) they look like they would be great. I milled a set out if aluminum. I have a larger mill in addition to the Taig and just did a long strip with the right dimensions. Drilled and tapped the whole thing on 3/4" centers and then hack sawed off the individual T's. I use threaded rod 10-32 cut to various lengths as needed. Ken Jenkins ------- From: John Maki Date: Tue Jan 3, 2006 1:26 am Subject: Parallels and Peanuts [sherline group] While working on a small milling project today, I was having trouble holding the parallels upright as I changed parts. I recalled several suggestions from past postings, but couldn't recall the "right" solution. As I looked around I saw a box full of shipping peanuts. I took one of these peanuts and fit it between the parallels and the problem was solved. I was working with wood and brass parts, so no high heat or lubricants were involved. John Maki ------- From: "JERRY G" Date: Tue Jan 3, 2006 2:57 pm Subject: Re: [sherline] Parallels and Peanuts I use two methods... One, fashion a "spring" from a flat piece of spring steel. Put a bow in it so it causes the parallels to hug the jaws. Or, double side tape the parallels to the jaws. Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- From: Dave Hylands Date: Fri Jan 6, 2006 1:19 am Subject: Hold down clamp modification [sherline group] I made a minor change to my hold down clamps (drilled and tapped a 10-32 hole in them) which makes them much easier to use for some circumstances. http://www.davehylands.com/Machinist/Modifications/Hold-Down-Clamps/ Dave Hylands Vancouver, BC, Canada http://www.DaveHylands.com/ ------- From: "JERRY G" Date: Fri Jan 6, 2006 1:53 am Subject: Re: [sherline] Hold down clamp modification Only one thing missing to make your minor change cool! Later, Jerry G (Glickstein) Then Dave asks: > OK - I give - What might that be? Then Jerry: > I would put a pad under the threaded rod to protect the aluminum work plate...... :) Then Dave: > Yeah. I filed the bottom of the stud to make it smooth as my compromise. The other thing I would do to improve it would be to replace the nut with something bigger that has a knurl on the outside so it can be hand tightened and loosened. Bernie adds: > I put acorn nuts on the bottom of mine. Dave says: > I like it - simple and elegant. Smitty says: > Make a threaded button with a rounded end to screw onto the back stud to prevent the stud end from marring the table, or use carriage bolts if you can find ones that are long enough. Shorty adds: > I made little brass buttons to go on the bottom of mine, just take some brass, drill tap then locktite the stud in. I will email you a pic of mine. ------- From: "JERRY G" Date: Fri Jan 6, 2006 12:33 pm Subject: Re: [sherline] Hold down clamp modification Dave, Bernie, Shorty, (Son) Most, if not all aluminum plates are cast and/or ground...I would not use acorn nuts, buttons or anything else with a round contact... Could dimple the plate. Make a simple inverted T disc out of nylon. thread it for the stud. Make sure the bottom is flat. Jerry G (Glickstein) AKA Dad, Pop.... ------- From: "Shorty Leatherwood" Date: Fri Jan 6, 2006 4:50 pm Subject: Re: [sherline] Hold down clamp modification Jerry, (dad) If you told me anything at all you always told me that if you have to use that much force when clamping something that you are not using enough clamps/hold downs. I have been using the brass for some time now and have not had any trouble with marring or marking or dimpling of the cross slide or tooling plate. Shorty Http://webpages.charter.net/leatherwoodplayground To which Jerry replies: > Shorty (Son), Well, I am gratified that some of what I told you is sinking in! :) I am also glad to hear you have suffered no damages from the practice. Or actually, I should say, your equipment has not been damaged. Obviously you have inherited the "Golden Hands" touch... :) Many clamps with a modicum of torque is the way to go. Jerry (Dad) AKA Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 12:38:23 -0600 From: Codesuidae Subject: Re: Work Hold Downs on a Taig Mill [taigtools] [AND YES, YOU CAN use this idea adapted to other tools.] nattyone960 wrote: >Is there anything better than step locks for work holding on the >Taig Mill? I generally use capscrews to fix a board to the table, face the board off and then screw whatever I'm working on down to the board. I imagine there are issues with high precision with using wood, but they don't affect my work. >Has anyone built a working vacuum table? >I am trying to build one now but I am not getting enough holding force. >Any suggestion re vacuum motors to use? I made one last week for an acrylic keychain engraving project. It consists of a 3x12x0.75 inch piece of wood into which I've milled four 2x2 inch pockets, about 1/6th inch deep. Into the bottom of the pocket I cut 5 concentric squares with an 'X' joining the corners, the pattern is cut with an 1/8th inch endmill to a depth of about 1/16th inch. In the center of each square I've hand-drilled a hole halfway through the board, and then drilled another hole in from the side of the board to form an L-shaped channel. I then cut a slot down the side of the board, added a 5th L-shaped channel and epoxied a cover over the slot. I can connect a vacuum hose to the 5th channel and thereby apply vacuum through the other channels and into the pattern cut into the bottoms of the square pockets. I use an old household vacuum with hose to generate the vacuum. I found that the hold-down force is reasonable, but that the channels should be as large as possible to provide better vacuum, and the bottom of the pockets should be higher friction to increase resistance to sheer forces. The vacuum doesn't appreciate this kind of duty, it seems to depend on the airflow from the hose for cooling, so I added a hole in the attachment to provide the required cooling. This reduces the vacuum pressure, but not enough to make it a problem for my project. This particular setup is specific to this project, but it wouldn't be hard to make something more general, perhaps with removable plugs for unused vacuum surface (or those fancy ball valves if you want to go expensive). Dave K ------- Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 10:40:34 -0800 From: Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein Subject: Re: Work Hold Downs on a Taig Mill My friend Kent uses an old milking machine for a vacuum pump on his vacuum chuck. Are you using a shop vac or a vacuum pump - you really need a vacuum pump... See our homepage at www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 09:28:22 -1000 (HST) From: benedict-listx~xxhawaii.rr.com Subject: Re: Work Hold Downs on a Taig Mill > anything better than step locks for work holding on the Taig Mill? I use vise and clamps on mine for almost everything I do. I've also used adhesive on a flat plate (usually milled flat, with the part glued on in situ.) > Has anyone built a working vacuum table? Nope, but I've wanted to, more for reasons of curiosity than anything else. > I am trying to build one now but I am not getting enough holding force. > Any suggestion re vacuum motors to use? High throughput, not necessarily high vacuum. In terms of holding force, there's almost no difference between 100 millitorr and 1x10-6 torr. My guess is anything that could evacuate a refrigeration system would pull a good enough vacuum. (My other guess is that this would be overkill.) One possibility, if you have gobs of shop air available, would be a venturi vacuum pump. They pull a decent vacuum and pull it fast. I'm looking at the web site for a vacuum table manufacturer, and they add the following: Continuous duty. High flow (their pump moves 55 cubic feet of air per minute, unloaded, but it's also designed for extremely large systems... not sure you'd need this much throughput) From the looks of their pump it's a rotary vane pump. > Table design? Really flat, lotsa holes, and you MUST block off all the unused holes or it won't be able to develop a decent vacuum. Some commercial tables use threaded holes so you can stick screws into the unused holes. Others use strips of shim stock or even card stock, provided you're not using coolant. Just gotta block any holes that don't have a part sitting on top of them. Mind my asking what your current setup looks like? If you're having problems developing decent hold-down force, it might be possible to fix that with some changes rather than completely starting over. Tom [Tom's later message:] Let me amend this after reading what Dave wrote. When I said lotsa holes I was thinking in terms of a general purpose table. The more holes, the more flexibility you have when using it because there's a better chance that whatever you put on the table will cover a large number of holes. Lotsa holes won't necessarily improve your holding force. It just makes it easier to put a part down and have a reasonably good chance the thing will grab it. If you can build a special purpose vacuum fixture on a project-by-project basis the way Dave did, by all means go this route. It allows you to incorporate features specific to the part that a more general setup won't have. Even the manufacturer's site I looked at for pump information touched on this. One service they offer is installation of custom locator pins and custom hole patterns, depending on what the customer needs. One other consideration on the vacuum pump: Throughput is almost not important with a perfect, leak-free system. Such a system does not exist, though, unfortunately. Basically your pump throughput has to be high enough to overcome whatever leaks your system has and still hold you at a vacuum that will let you do what you need to do. This is as true for vacuum tables as it is for high vacuum lab equipment. But since every system has leaks, pump speed is an issue. You can deal with this by getting a faster pump, or by attacking your leaks. Another issue that Dave mentioned that bears re-mentioning is conductance. The fatter the channel between part and pump, the better your pump speed. For example, if you're sucking a drink through a 1/8" diameter straw, it'll take you longer to empty the cup than if you drink through a 1/4" diameter straw. (And for the experimenter, you can always opt to use the full aperture of the system...lean back and dump the cup into your mouth.) One trick you can do to cut down on leaks is to use some sort of vacuum grease on your table. Put a thin (THIN!) layer on the table, then put the part down. Cover up all the unused holes and open the vacuum valve or turn on the pump. This may be enough to help with the system you've got. And in case you're short on vacuum grease, one of the greases sold by Apiezon is basically Vaseline. It's got a low vapor pressure and works fine. If Vaseline is too thin, you can heat it up and add a little wax to the mix. When cooled, it's stiffer and sticks to metal better. ------- Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 10:19:35 -1000 (HST) From: benedict-listx~xxhawaii.rr.com Subject: Re: Work Hold Downs on a Taig Mill [NOTE TO FILE: Tom inserts a reference to e-Bay listings that will disappear soon, so they were snipped here. However, Tom's description and comments are clear enough to get the idea without ppictures.] Dang it, sorry about replying to my own reply, but you posted a good question. The drawings I had done up for the table I was planning to build was more or less like the first one, but done in two pieces. The more I look at it, though, the more I like the shop-made table. Here's why: It's got a metal base with a port. I'd add screw holes so I could bolt it to my mill table, but that's just me. I'm guessing the base is drilled and slotted to let the vacuum get wherever it needs to go. Aside from squaring up the block, this would be a two setup job. It'd go pretty quickly. The table has a separate top. The one on this table looks like it's Delrin or Nylon, but it could just as easily be aluminum or steel (or dang near anything else.) If the base is well designed, the top should just be a block with mounting holes and through holes for vacuum. Aside from squaring up the block, it'd be a single setup job. This gives you the best of both worlds, in my book. You can set up a general purpose table and use it that way, or if you have a particular part that needs special consideration, you can pop the top off and make a new one just for that job. If you have a part you need to machine all the way to the top of the table, make a sacrificial top. If you have a series of parts that you need to be able to load quickly, make a new top with locator pins. The base would stay the same and could be used for each job. HMMMM! This looks like a really neat addition to a mill. Tom ------- Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 16:22:19 -0500 From: Bernice & Al Subject: Re: Work Hold Downs on a Taig Mill Try this site. Although it's a woodworking site the vacuum holdown principle is the same. http://www.joewoodworker.com/veneering/welcome.htm Al ------- How Would I Do This on Sherline Tools? [sherline] Posted by: "montanaaardvark" boblombardix~xxcfl.rr.com Date: Sun Jan 28, 2007 11:49 am ((PST)) I have a piece I need to do make on my lathe, and I don't know quite how to set it up and hold it on the lathe. First off, it's big: 130mm Outside diameter, 5.118". That dimension isn't critical. In fact, it might need to be turned down to fit into a 5" diameter pipe. There are a couple of smaller features that need to be cut into one end/face: 65.5mm (2.5787") centered, a pair of holes along a diameter, and a 30mm hole bored through the center. The piece needs to be 30mm thick. This is bigger than any chuck I have, although I think I could bore a hole through it on the mill, put a large shaft in it and chuck that in a 4 jaw chuck. Still, it's so big that even with a headstock riser, it wouldn't clear the cross slide. I do have the rotary table for the mill, so it might be best to rotate it against a rotating end mill, and do the the jobs I think of as lathe work on the mill. I know there are some clever guys here. I'd appreciate ideas. Thanks, Bob ------- Re: How Would I Do This on Sherline Tools? Posted by: "David Clark" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Sun Jan 28, 2007 12:28 pm ((PST)) Hello Bob: Here's something I've done with parts too big for a chuck, if you can stand a few extra holes in your piece. Use the faceplate. Face it off, then drill and tap three holes in the back of your piece corresponding to the slotted holes provided in the faceplate. Bolt the workpiece to the plate and screw it onto your headstock. I've also made intemediate plates to adapt a work piece to the faceplate so that I could use holes that were part of the finished piece. Another way to think of this is that you can make your faceplate as large as the lathe will permit simply by bolting a disk of tooling plate to it. The tooling plate can contain whatever workpiece mounting features are needed. As for clearing the cross slide, use a turning bar. HTH. DC ------- Re: How Would I Do This on Sherline Tools? Posted by: "Dave Hylands" dhylandsx~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Jan 28, 2007 1:01 pm ((PST)) Hi Bob: To follow on with what David Clark said, here's some photos showing what he's talking about: http://www.davehylands.com/Robotics/Marauder/Making-Tires/ind ex.html#06-New-Mold.jpg This only allows something about 3-1/4" to be mounted, but with the 1-1/4" riser block would allow something upto about 5-3/4" to be mounted. I've also used the rotary table as you've described. Dave Hylands Vancouver, BC, Canada http://www.DaveHylands.com/ ------- Re: How Would I Do This on Sherline Tools? Posted by: "n2562001" jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net Date: Sun Jan 28, 2007 1:18 pm ((PST)) Bob: If you have a mill then use the mill as a lathe with the head as is or turned 90 degrees in the horizontal position. Cutting tools and boring bars can be held in the vise for either head position. This will also allow you to use a center shaft on the work piece as you indicated. Turning 5"-6" diameters is not a problem on the Mill, however you will need to take light cuts because of the larger than designed for diameter. Jerry Kieffer ------- vee block clamps [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "abcmg68" alcostichx~xxrpa.net Date: Mon Aug 20, 2007 8:41 am ((PDT)) So I had this small task that would be best done on a vee block. I have several vee blocks that I've come upon over the years. However, I don't have clamps for all of them. An interesting and challenging task, I thought. How would one go about making clamps for these vee blocks? I have a very old shop school book the details how to make a vee block but it does not include making the clamp. Got any ideas? Thanks Alan ------- Re: vee block clamps Posted by: "Alan R. Lapp" alanlappx~xxlevelfive.com Date: Mon Aug 20, 2007 8:59 am ((PDT)) I'd use steel plate stock. I would begin by boring the "arch" on a mill or lathe, then cut away the opening and "tabs" on a band saw. Clean up with a file, and Bob's your Uncle, as the Brits say. Of course you'd drill and tap the top of the arch for the hold-down fastener. I have had 2 sets with cheesy 'tommy bars', but have found them more agreeable and useful with a hex head. a ------- Re: vee block clamps Posted by: "J R Williams" jrwillmsx~xxhal-pc.org Date: Mon Aug 20, 2007 9:16 am ((PDT)) Alan: Providing the V blocks have the typical side groove, I would dig out a catalog and take a good look at the clamps available. I had a small block minus a clamp and fouond MSC listed clamps at the time. It was so low cost that I did not consider making a clamp. It did require a little file work to fit the slot. JRW ------- Re: vee block clamps Posted by: "viajoaquinx~xxaol.com" Date: Mon Aug 20, 2007 1:25 pm ((PDT)) Alan: Look for some thick walled (1/4" wall) square tubing that has an inside demension the width of the V-block. Cut a short length 1/2" to 1" and remove enough of one side to leave ears to go into the clamp slots on the V-block. Drill and tap the opposite side for a clamp bolt and you are set. BakoRoy ------- Re: vee block clamps Posted by: "Alan R. Lapp" alanlappx~xxlevelfive.com Date: Mon Aug 20, 2007 1:50 pm ((PDT)) > Look for some thick walled (1/4" wall) square tubing ... Drill and > tap the opposite side for a clamp bolt and you are set. That's precisely how I made a drive dog for my small lathe. I welded a nut on the outside, and use a bolt as the drive pin. ------- Re: Bron killer red tape [taigtools] Posted by: "S or J" jstudiox~xxtbaytel.net Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:32 am ((PDT)) James Eckman ronin_engineerx~xxcomcast.net wrote: >Recently I was try to figure out how to thin down some 1" locomotive tires without rigging up anything too fancy. I tried some of the Bron Killer Red double sided sticky tape. I had already used it for several other projects, when I put two blocks of wood together it tore out the grain when I tried to split it. I used the 4 jaw with a flat piece of plate so I could center it, worked like a champ, I still took light cuts though. The only problem is finding the stuff. Michaels might be selling it, they had some 3/4" 1/2" and 1/4" tape that looks a lot like it and seems to have the same characteristics. It's called Terrifically Tacky Tape. Jim Eckman < Hi Jim: For some tasks I have been using double sided tape intended for wood turning. It is much more aggressive than common 2-sided carpet tape. I get mine from Lee Valley Tools http://www.leevalley.com/ The specific page for the tape in the turning accessories is [following address is both lines run together without a space]: http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.as px?c=1&p=49224&cat=1,330,49236&ap=1 While at the Lee Valley site, you might want to look at some of the special Taig lathe accessories they designed for woodturning. [usual disclaimer] I have not tried Woodcraft's version from the U.S. but imagine their turning tape is similar in quality if not identical: http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?FamilyID=390 Good quality tapes are relatively expensive but a roll should last a long time for odd jobs. One limitation of such tapes is that they might hold too well, and a thin part could get bent during removal. Consequently having several tapes of different tackiness on hand could be useful depending on the particular task. I have not seen either tape you mentioned but will try to check them out in future. regards Steve -- in Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ ------- Re: Digest Number 2837 [actually Re: Bron killer red tape] Posted by: "James Eckman" ronin_engineerx~xxcomcast.net lost90804 Date: Fri Oct 12, 2007 6:16 am ((PDT)) The Bron tape is not a cloth backed tape, it's about .002 thick. Much less give than the cloth tapes seem to have and much stickier than the traditional thin double sticky tapes. Not suitable for wood, it may cause tearout on along the grain. And as you pointed out, neither will work well for fragile parts. Jim ------- Re: Need help on securing flywheels [LittleEngines] Posted by: "ED MAISEY" holmes_ca_2000x~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:41 am ((PST)) Just a bit of trivia about Loctite 430 for those interested, I bonded a small slab of 6061 aluminium (size about 2in X 2in I believe) to a piece of mild steel plate. (Both surfaces to be bonded must have flat smooth surfaces.) I clamped it on the mill table and took a cut into the aluminium plate of .100 with .500 end mill cutter; the secret is to enter the cut very gently until the end mill is cutting fully (no intermittent shock taking place). Then you can increase the feed. When I finished machining the plate, I gave the aluminium plate a sharp blow on its edge with a soft brass bar and hammer and it released its bond completely clean as a whistle. This bit of trivia is only meant to suggest that in a emergency, (saving an otherwise scrapped part), Loctite 430 can help save it; of course you could also use double sided tape, but I wouldn't in this particular case, By the way, the machining operation above was just a test to see if the Loctite product would work. I have no other interest in the product; I'm just a user of the same, Edmund ------- Aircraft Bolts: Alternative Fasteners [taigtools] Posted by: "bob_ledoux" bobledouxx~xxproaxis.com Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 11:10 am ((PST)) If you are trying to buy long allen head screws take a look at aircraft bolts as an alternative. Taig makes common use of 10-32 threaded screws for fasteners. Industry typically considers this a "screw" size. In the aviation industry this is a "bolt" size. "AN3" are 3/16 diameter aircraft bolts. They are typically made from 8740 alloy, centerless ground, and roll threaded after heat treatment, with a 10-32 thread. They are available in 1/8 inch increments from half an inch to six inches in length. Only the tip half inch is threaded. The sizes are called out as this example: an AN3-45 is a 3/16 diameter bolt that is 4 inches plus 5/8 inches in length, or 4 and 5/8 inches long. This bolt will have a grip area, the length between the head and thread, of 4-1/4 inches. Costs are reasonable unless you want a shank drilled for cotter pin or the head drilled for safety wire. AN standard bolts are available in diameters from 3/16 (AN3) up to at least 9/16 inch (AN9). The AN standard was developed during World War II to provide a standardized fastener system for the war industry. The AN 3 through 9 series of bolts are made to fairly close tolerances. There are additional AN series for other applications such as high strength, close tolerance, shear bolt applications. Here is a typical source: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/ha/bolts.html ------- Re: Aircraft Bolts: Alternative Fasteners Posted by: "Ken Cline" clinex~xxfrii.com Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 3:57 pm ((PST)) Do you think they refer to these fasteners as "bolts" to distinguish them from machine screws (which are threaded along their entire length)? I can't think of a reason that size should matter. By the way, the difference between bolts and screws is in the way they are used: bolts are tensioned by turning a nut on the end, while screws themselves are turned into a threaded hole or fixed nut. I keep a selection of 10-32 socket head cap screws up to 2" in length for general use with my mill. Some lengths of 10-32 threaded rod take care of situations where I need something longer. For clamping, I can screw the threaded rod into a T-slot nut and use a nut on top to tension it. I like extra long coupling nuts which are easy to handle and make it almost impossible for the miniature wrench to slip off when tightening. Ken ------- Tee nut alternative [LittleEngines] Posted by: "Tom Faragher" tfaragherx~xxverizon.net Date: Tue Mar 11, 2008 1:07 pm ((PDT)) My milling machine table has 9/16 slots in it so I use the narrow tee nuts with 3/8-16 threads. My milling vise, drill vise, and rotary indexer all have fairly wide slots that measure about 5/8 inch at the top where the 3/8 washer would go and the washers get distorted from tightening on the wide slot. I decided to try using 1/2 inch carriage bolts which have a square just under the head that measures about 9/16 inch. The rounded head is a little too wide to fit the tee part of the slot so it requires some grinding to make it fit. These have been working so well with a half inch washer and nut on top that I have not used tee nuts at all for several months. For other setups that require long bolts I will still use the 3/8-16 tee nuts. Tom Faragher ------- Re: Tee nut alternative Posted by: "Ken Strauss" ken.straussx~xxsympatico.ca Date: Tue Mar 11, 2008 1:26 pm ((PDT)) I solved my bending washer problem by buying thicker, case hardened, washers. For example, go to http://www.kbctools.com and look at their part number 1-903-42603 or 1-903-42621. Spherical washers and spherical flange nuts, 1-903-42702 and 1-903-41903, help to compensate for irregularities in the castings. ------- Re: Tee nut alternative Posted by: "Michael Calhoun" mikaelcx~xxairmail.net Date: Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:22 pm ((PDT)) Do you have a complete clamping set for your mill? If so, then use a stud long enough that you can place a clamping bar on top of the rotary table clamping lugs, then run the clamping nut down on top of the bar - it will distribute the clamping force over the entire surface of the table's clamping lugs. Miker ------- Enco vise [sherline] Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Sun Apr 27, 2008 5:28 am ((PDT)) Hello group: A few weeks ago I purchased Enco's toolmakers vise, pn 505-2144. I bought it because I've used their similar, larger, vise, pn 428-9126, for a few years and found it to be an excellent value. I've also recommended these products on that basis, here and in other forums. Yesterday I attempted to use the new vise for the first time and encountered major difficulties. It simply could not be made to close on work of certain thicknesses. The pull-down member was so badly made -- miss-cut, and with the hole for the pin drilled so far off center -- that it jammed in the vise body with the pin and movable jaw not seated properly. Also, there was inadequate clearance between the convex washer and the screw, which was fully threaded (it should be a shoulder screw). This caused the screw to jam in the washer from any angle besides perpendicular. I apologize to anyone who may have purchased this vise on my recommendation, and had similar problems. The good news is: it's all pretty easy to fix. The pull-down member just had to be turned down to a constant diameter to provide enough clearance within the body. I also turned down the screw to its minor diameter for a 1/4 inch or so under the head, to provide clearance through the convex washer. In addition, I suggest using a 2" long pin all the way through the vise to anchor the pull-down. Interestingly, Enco's illustration of this vise: http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INLMKD&PMPXNO=950938&PMA KA=505-2144 shows such a pin, but none was included with my vise. Instead, a short pin was secured (badly) in the pull-down by a set screw. The long pin is much more secure. Even with these difficulties, I still rate the vise a pretty good value, given that one can pay several times as much for this type of vise. The body and movable jaw are well made -- flat, square and true -- with very good fit and finish. If anyone needs a more thorough explanation of the fixes, let me know, and I'll post some pictures. Best regards, a somewhat red-faced, DC ------- [Actual subject here is improving workholding to prevent slippage.] Loctite grades for work-holding [MyMyford] Posted by: "tr0up" a.troupx~xxemail.com Date: Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:13 pm ((PDT)) Depending how much grip I'm expecting the loctite (or equivalent brand) to contribute to work-holding resistance force, I'd use stud-lock, screw-lock, or nut-lock (in increasing order of strength) and in extreme situations with highly inadequate clamping I might resort to 'super high strength retaining compound' or equivalent, which is intended as a substitute for interference fits (press fits) on cylindrical items. The holding force can be increased and the waiting time reduced by using a proprietary activator and/or some warming The disassembly prospects can be improved by using one or more layers of paper between the mating faces and/or a combination of heat, and jacking or leverage. ------- Re: Loctite grades for work-holding Posted by: "john244265" geonx~xxbtinternet.com Date: Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:50 pm ((PDT)) Hi Mr Troup (or is that true up), That is exactly the sort of advice I need. Sounds like newspaper is useful between gripper and gripped for increasing friction as well as a means of aiding separation of glued items. I knew wood turners used this method but hadn't realised the fairly obvious advantages for securing work. ------- Re: Loctite grades for work-holding Posted by: "tr0up" a.troupx~xxemail.com Date: Wed Apr 30, 2008 11:54 pm ((PDT)) More thoughts on work holding. (This thread was prompted by the observation that the T slots on Myford tables and accessories do not always support clamping work sufficently tightly not to move, particularly for milling loads, which can way exceed anything turning can generate.) The use of a sheet of paper between the surfaces was the first suggestion and should be the first resort. The post which leads this thread was a response to a request for more specific info on an 'escalated response' should the plain paper prove insufficient. - another trick if you're in a hurry: use superglue to attach fresh 600 grit wet & dry paper, grit side out. The trade-off is that scraping it off can be a pain. There is supposedly a solvent sold by Permabond - but acetone or nail polish remover (same product, different pricing by several orders of magnitude) does the trick. - for gripping almost but not quite planar surfaces in a milling vice: use a piece of emery cloth, folded in two with the abrasive grit inside, as a packer between vice jaw and work. Ideally the opposite face will have been machined, filed or linished to a flat face, and preferably this flatter face will engage the fixed jaw of the vice. (The emery grit is quite resistant to interpenetrating the opposing grit, which makes this a variable thickness packer which nevertheless strongly resists crushing forces.) - if the face is less planar than the above method would support, use sheet lead, as used to be in common use for flashing corrugated iron rooves [roofs]. Fold it several times if the surface is really rough, like a casting with bosses. Milling vices are usually made to withstand being done up rather tight, although very small ones are obviously limited in this regard. Always lean on the work hard before you go to the trouble of dialing it up, and rectify if you can move it. A stitch in time ! ------- Re: Loctite grades shop use eslewhere Posted by: "gordon_frnch" gordon-frenchx~xxnetzero.net Date: Thu May 1, 2008 7:58 am ((PDT)) Recently I aquired a 1960's Rockwell 21-0100 vertical mill. During the clean up activities I found that the leasdscrew nut (2 axes) was quite loose. I bought loctite 620 bearing retainer in tiny tiny bottle. I scrupulusly cleaned everything and one axis at a time put a bit of the retainer in the nut and put the leadscrew in place. After it set up, it of course siezed, but I did expect that. I dribbled a small quantity of toluene into the joint and forced the leadscrew loose. Then took it out and cleaned it with a brush, and thoroughly lubricated it. After reassembly the play was gone but a proper fit remained. I repeated the same thing on the other axis. While this may not be the factory reccommended way of taking out slop, it certainly works and since I know how to do it again if it is necessary, it does not need to be a permanent cure. Understand that I am not recommendening this for one and sundry, but it did work for me and is an inexpensive fix for the fellow who's pocket is not so deep. Please, dissentors, do not tirade me endlessly with criticism. I know that this is risky, and will NOT WORK FOR EVERYONE! Toluene worked where acetone and methyl ethel keytone did not in this particular application, to loosen but not completely disolve the 620 loctite. Gordon French, Roseburg, Oregon, USA ------- Re: Loctite grades shop use eslewhere Posted by: "Tony Jeffree" tonyx~xxjeffree.co.uk Date: Thu May 1, 2008 8:28 am ((PDT)) There are similar techniques that use various filled epoxy compounds -- epoxy resin filled with moly or graphite or whatever to reduce friction. The technique with them is to use a silicone based release agent sprayed onto the screw; also, rather than just filling the threads in the nut, you bore out the nut so that there is a rather more solid lump of the compound with a complete thread cast in it & therefore it would probably make for a more durable solution. I bought a small quantity of the stuff with the intention of "improving" the feednuts on my Taig mill; however, having had the mill to bits and improved the operation of the thrust bearings, I figured out that the nuts weren't the problem in the first place. So the material is sitting on my shelf waiting for a suitable application... Regards, Tony ------- Re: Loctite grades shop use eslewhere Posted by: "tr0up" a.troupx~xxemail.com Date: Fri May 2, 2008 12:50 am ((PDT)) > There are similar techniques that use various filled epoxy compounds > -- epoxy resin filled with moly or graphite or whatever to reduce > friction. Anyone wanting more specifics on this type of material, or how to use it, could Google for "Moglice" (rhymes with 'police'). One thing to be aware of: the makers recommend .032" minimum gap for the material, and a *rough* clean surface to bond to. ------- Re: Loctite grades shop use eslewhere Posted by: "Tony Jeffree" tonyx~xxjeffree.co.uk Date: Fri May 2, 2008 2:54 am ((PDT)) The material I have is "SKC slideway coating" from these people: http://www.buttkereit.co.uk/ Regards, Tony ------- Cut angle plate slots? [LittleEngines] Posted by: "upand_at_them" upand_at_themx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Aug 2, 2008 8:15 pm ((PDT)) I got an angle plate from Enco. And in going through the Workshop Practice Series book on milling, it looks like having slots in the plate would be a good idea (and I think some of the book's projects require it). I'm a beginner at all of this, so would it be reasonable to mill slots in an already machined plate? The webs don't provide much clearance between them, though. Mike ------- Re: Cut angle plate slots? Posted by: "Pierre Coueffin" pcoueffinx~xxgmail.com Date: Sat Aug 2, 2008 9:40 pm ((PDT)) I drilled and tapped a couple of extra holes in a cast-iron angle plate a few months back for a specific job. Ductile cast iron is nice stuff to work on. It might be convenient to make one up like a tooling-plate: a regularly spaced grid of tapped holes that you can use for setting up jobs quickly. I figure that angle plates are like face-plates on a lathe. They're consumables that you modify as needed to suit the job at hand. ------- Re: Cut angle plate slots? Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Sun Aug 3, 2008 6:15 am ((PDT)) I agree. Also consider bolting a sacrificial piece of tooling plate to one face of the angle plate. Machine whatever features are needed in the tooling plate. hen you can machine into the plate, re-face it, add features, reuse it, many times. Do the same for your rotary table and any other such fixtures. Make your own face-plates. DC (David Clark in Southern Maryland, USA) ------- Re: Cut angle plate slots? Posted by: "Ray Brandes" rvbx~xxray-vin.com Date: Sun Aug 3, 2008 5:52 am ((PDT)) Mike: Slots are useful on large plates where you can use strap clamps. On small plates Kant-Twist clamps are very effective. You could cut slots, but if not done correctly you can ruin the plate. Better would be an array of tapped holes. However, it seems more often than not, there won't be a hole where you need one. I like the Kant-Twist clamps and have a pair of 4" and a pair of 3" that work great for me - they have tremendous holding power. Take a look at to see one setup using them from my ebook on machining the AR15 lower receiver. Regards, Ray in FLA ------- Re: Cut angle plate slots? Posted by: "upand_at_them" upand_at_themx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Aug 3, 2008 9:08 am ((PDT)) Thanks, guys. ------- [Actual subject here: Workholding Tips] OT: New Drill Press for my Shop [taigtools] Posted by: "Clive Foster" clive_fosterx~xxtalk21.com Date: Wed Mar 11, 2009 1:36 pm ((PDT)) John: Another thing to put on your shopping list is a decent stock off flat "improved wood" off-cuts e.g. MDF or faced chipboard from old kitchen cabinets / scrapped cheap furniture. Unless it's from the real junk ranges, this stuff is remarkably flat with the two sides decently parallel. Just the job for sacrificial sub-tables to hold things which won't behave in the vice, e.g. sheet material. Clamp the sheet to the X-Y table in the usual manner and buzz in a few self- tappers with the 'leccy driver to hold the work-piece in place. Or be more ambitious with pins for alignment and chopped up bits to support overhanging flanges. Also handy on the mill where there is no room for enough clamps. I've done more than a few jobs held down by too many self tappers round the edge so I can take out and replace as needed to get cutter clearance without things moving or bowing. Clive ------- [posted to both groups -- sherline and taigtools] The "Secret" to Screwless Milling Vises.....A Love/Hate relationship Posted by: "lhbakeland" digitaltorquex~xxaol.com Date: Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:17 pm ((PDT)) They are the ideal small milling vise for micro/mini mills. They are, however, finicky and a pain to adjust and use. Loosen the screw too much and the "T" post nut will turn and "cock." That means that the nut, whe tightened, will wedge against the slots of the vise in an uncompromising postion requiring that the vise has to be demounted and repositioned. The nut on my vise has many scars to show it. The "nut" and pin that goes into the bottom slots of the vise's body has not been carefully made and fitted to the vise. Too much clearance allows the nut and post to flop around. After many days od thought and experimentation, I have found the solution. The new improved nut must fit the following criteria. 1. The sides of the nut must be wide enough and extend enough towards the screw to prevent it form turning when the screw is loosened and the nut is allowed to slide down, thus allowing the pin to move out of a locking slot. 2. The "bottom" of the nut must be long enough to allow it to slide on the mill's table, yet allow the cross pin to slid below the locking slots at the bottom of the vise. 3. The locking pin must be wide enough to span the entire locking slot on the bottom of the vise but not longer than the slot for free movement. So, basically, by loosening the lock screw, the nut is allowed to drop onto the mill's table only enough for the cross pin to drop below the locking slot. The extended width of the nut now does not allow the nut to rotate and "positions" the locking pin always parallel to the slots at the bottom of the vise. After many many hours of machining the new nut from 303 stainless steel and fitting it to the vise, I can report that the time spent was very well worth it. Just loosening the screw two or three turns allows the nut to drop to the mill's table and allows it to slide back and forth smoothly to the slot needed. A tilt of the screw as it it tightened allows it to be easily tightened and locked. I hope this information will help someone else with making their screwless vise a much more friendly device to use. Leo ------- Re: The "Secret" to Screwless Milling Vises.....A Love/Hate relation Posted by: "chieftoolmaker" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Mon Jun 29, 2009 5:18 pm ((PDT)) Leo, I had four Sherline vises.....( P/N 3551) I just cut two strips (each) per vise, of .008" thick by 3/8" wide by 3 1/4" long blue spring steel stock. Punched mounting holes in each end. Fastened the ends to the areas at each end of the well in the bottom of the vise. The spring steel hugs the pins of the clamping nut. Yet allows it to travel. So, the tension prevents too much loosening, or accommodates it, and prevents turning of the nut. Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Milling vise vs shaper vise [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Charlie Gallo" Charliex~xxTheGallos.com Date: Wed Jul 1, 2009 5:49 pm ((PDT)) I have an Atlas vise that I got a bunch of years ago - in near new condition (paint is like 80% - otherwise perfect), complete with handle - the problem is, I'm not quite sure if it's a shaper vise or a mill vise. Anyone know how to tell? 73 de KG2V ------- Re: Milling vise vs shaper vise Posted by: "doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com Date: Wed Jul 1, 2009 8:45 pm ((PDT)) FWIW..My atlas shaper vise takes four hold down bolts ...have not seen the mill vise, BUT I have the atlas mill rotary table & it has two ears, while the shaper rotary table has four .... Typical milling vise takes two hold down bolts & every shaper vise I have seen (5), & innumerable pics, takes four hold downs to resist the thrust .;. Best wishes doc ------- Re: Milling vise vs shaper vise Posted by: "Gilbert Gileau" gilgilux~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Jul 2, 2009 4:39 am ((PDT)) A vise is a vise is a vise; no matter what it is called, it is still a vise. Use it anywhere you want to clamp/hold stuff. ------- Re: Milling vise vs shaper vise Posted by: "charlie11364" Charliex~xxTheGallos.com Date: Thu Jul 2, 2009 4:47 am ((PDT)) Not when you are going to SELL it - have you seen the prices original Atlas vises go for? Thank you -- I'll keep my 2 Kurt vises, and sell the Atlas (which did work nicely when I had an old small horizontal mill of unknown brand). You can sell an Atlas vise and handle, and buy a brand new Kurt (not a clone -- the real thing). ------- Re: Milling vise vs shaper vise Posted by: "David G. Sampar" dsamparx~xxptd.net Date: Thu Jul 2, 2009 5:40 am ((PDT)) Besides the number of hold down points, the shaper vise is 4 inches wide and the milling vise is only 3 inches wide. ------- Re: Milling vise vs shaper vise Posted by: "jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net" Date: Thu Jul 2, 2009 5:47 am ((PDT)) Not necessarily so.... They are designed differently to do different jobs. A shaper vise is low, wide, and generally has 4 hold-downs, because it gets very strong push forces in use. The milling vise needs to be sturdy, but not to withstand extreme pushing, so it usually has two hold-downs, and may be significantly taller. Besides, that is more convenient for a slotted table. IIRC the Atlas mill vise does have only two bolts. I know for sure the shaper vise has 4. JT ------- Re: Milling vise vs shaper vise Posted by: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Jul 2, 2009 9:25 am ((PDT)) Most shaper vises are at least as wide as their jaw openings, whereas most milling vises open about 1.5-2x their jaw width. ------- Re: Milling vise vs shaper vise Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Thu Jul 2, 2009 10:31 am ((PDT)) Gilbert Gileau wrote: >A vise is a vise is a vise; no matter what it is called, it is still a >vise. Use it anywhere you want to clamp/hold stuff. Certainly not true. Try using a flimsy milling vise or drill press vise on a shaper, and you will have some new pieces of scrap iron. The forces developed by a shaper are quite large, and will literally break a lighter vise into pieces. Also, a bench vise (what a laugh) or even a drill press vise is woefully inadequate for milling use. I did that first, and was amazed at the difference a decent Chinese milling vise made. Jon ------- Re: Milling vise vs shaper vise Posted by: "jmartin957x~xxaol.com" Date: Thu Jul 2, 2009 8:56 pm ((PDT)) From a 1943 catalog I have, the Atlas mill and shaper vises look very much alike. The most obvious difference appears to be in the number of clamping bolts - 2 for the mill vise vs. 4 for the shaper vise. The mill vise was a separate option. M1-300 Swivel Vise, overall height with base 3-1/2 inches, weight 15 pounds. The shaper vise was included with the machine. No number, vise jaw 4 inches long and 7/8 inch wide. Vise opens 4 inches. The design of the Atlas shaper vise was typical of most milling vises, and different from most other shaper vises. Most, maybe all, of the other shaper vises I've seen have the screw pulling the sliding jaw rather than pushing it. With the crank at the front of the table, having the screw pull the sliding jaw means that the force of the shaper cut is resisted by the fixed jaw - which is the best way to do it. With the Atlas vise, the cut acts against the sliding jaw. One advantage of doing it that way is that the sliding jaw does not have to resist lifting forces, which makes the vise a bit simpler. John Martin ------- Re: Milling vise vs shaper vise Posted by: "anthrhodesx~xxaol.com" Date: Fri Jul 3, 2009 1:49 pm ((PDT)) Charlie, If you go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Atlasshaperandmillingmachineusersgr oup/photos/album/0/list and click on "Last", the last photo album is labeled "Vises". There are three pictures of a mill vise and a shaper vise side by side. Somebody else has added a non-Atlas vise, actually quite interesting. As stated by others, 3" vs 4" and 2-hole vs 4-hole. In fact the mill vise is approximately 75% measurement of the shaper vise in X and Y directions but equal in height. A vise for the mill must be quite low in height due to the relatively short range of vertical adjustment of the knee. Anthony Berkeley, Calif. ------- Re: Fixture Plates [taigtools] Posted by: "Lester Caine" lesterx~xxlsces.co.uk Date: Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:11 pm ((PDT)) noisillator wrote: > I see that some owners like to use a large fixture plate drilled > with threaded holes. The convenience factor is obvious, but is there > any other reason to use one? I'm thinking about normal use, not a > crash. Is table wear an issue, mounting and dismounting parts > repeatedly onto the main table? Should clamps and such be made of > aluminum rather than steel, or doesn't it matter? Machining a number of different boxes nowadays, the convenience of simply screwing out a few set screws to hold the jigs in place and square is bliss. I only have to align the first of a new box and then drill a few holes to align with some holes in the plate. Then the jig box always loads up square when you switch from one size to another ... Lester Caine - G8HFL ------- A treatise on steadies. [myfordlathes] Posted by: "John" johnx~xxstevenson-engineers.co.uk stevenson_engineers Date: Sat Sep 26, 2009 12:43 pm ((PDT)) This isn't the be all and end all of steadies, there are many ways to achieve the same aims, this is just what I have to use at this moment in time and is posted just to further ideas. I am of the opinion that there has never been a steady for all uses, this is further enhanced by the different ones I have to do a different job, in some posts you can see from example picture why a certain design just won't work. Again I'm not forcing my views on anyone just offering an across the board idea on steadies. Generic steady as supplied with my small TOS lathe, often copied and works well for general work. One point to note is the keep plate that fastens it down, it's been chamfered on both ends so it can swing into position without having to remove the bolt and thread it up from underneath. http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/steadypost1.jpg Generic steady as supplied as standard on my large TOS, again the keep plate has been reworked. http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/steadypost2.jpg This steady is fitted with hardened steel pads as opposed to bronze, sounds an unusual combination but it does work and doesn't unduly mark the work. These are how they are at present after 25 years work. http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/steadypost3.jpg This is a large prefabricated steady I made for the big TOS to take over from the standard one. Sorry it's a bit shaky as I was trying to hold the measure at the same time. It's 22" side to side and will hold 16" diameter. Screws are 24mm all thread with nuts pinned to the top and brass pads. It was a bit of a rush job as I needed it for some large rollers. http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/steadypost4.jpg Details of one hinge, there are 8 plates, 4 top, 4 bottom each set has been laser cut identically from 10mm steel plate, then 2 plates on each have had the ears cut off [ ouch ! ] to form the hinges. The bed profile has also been laser cut in and only needed dressing with a file to fit the bed well. http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/steadypost5.jpg Opposite hinge point. the whole assembly is held together with a series of countersunk Allen screws. http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/steadypost6.jpg This is a cathead I made for both the small TOS and the CVA, it's in two parts and only requires a change of base to fit both machines. http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/steadypost7.jpg Since this picture was taken the sleeve has had two more holes drilled and tapped at 120 degree to one of the existing screws. This allows it to hold square, hex octagonal and irregular shaped work. http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/steadypost8.jpg View from the other side to show mounting. The cat head can be secured either way depending on what it has to grip. To line up you slack the two cap head screws, grip the inner of the sleeve in the 3 jaw chuck and wind the jaws out to grip then finally tighten the two caphead bolts. http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/steadypost9.jpg This steady came off an old Herbert lathe and had the vee moved over on the base to line up with centre and it also has lumps milled off the side to allow the ears of the saddle to pass. This takes over from the small generic standard steady that came with the lathe. http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/steadypost10.jpg Loose cathead similar to the one in picture 7 but having 2 sets of screws and no bearing. It's designed to be fitted to something like a welded shaft, or square and then run in a standard steady as such:- Again since this picture was taken it's had the extra holes drilled for hexagon work. http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/steadypost11.jpg View from the other side. http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/steadypost12.jpg Another steady for the small TOS, this time off a Colchester. I modified this as it's a roller steady and if you use a piece of cardboard as a washer on the tool side it stop chips getting jammed under the rollers. http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/steadypost13.jpg Close up view of the rollers and the conversion plate needed to get it to centre height. http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/steadypost14.jpg Now the next 4 pics, show what I mean about there never being a steady for all jobs. This is the standard steady for my CVA which is a clone of a 10EE. http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/steadypost15.jpg Typical job, having to support a small armature to work on the drive end. http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/steadypost16.jpg Problem is the fan is on the steady but the fingers are not reaching the end of the shaft. Even with centrally spaced fingers this isn't going to happen. In this case the steady can't turn round as it relies on one vee on the rear shear to locate it and that's common to many lathes. The answer is to reverse the steady if possible, fine on something like a Myford with 2 flat shears but not on something like the 10EE. http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/steadypost17.jpg Answer is mill a new vee on the opposite side. http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/steadypost18.jpg Still enough room to fit on the flat way but you get two bites of the cherry. Purists will throw their arms up in the air milling a steady but purists don't have to earn a living doing this daily. Last, not exactly a steady but can be used as one is the rotating chuck in the tailstock. Shot from the back, one bearing sits in the back of the chuck and a second sits in the backplate. http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/steadypost19.jpg By using an independent 4 jaw it can hold anything you throw at it and allow you to clock the parts up that need to run true and them machine enough to then get a conventional steady on the part. http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/steadypost20.jpg This isn't all there is on steadies, only a small part but hopefully enough that you can see other ways to support work. Questions ? John S. ------- Re: A treatise on steadies. Posted by: "Cliff Coggin" clifford.cogginx~xxvirgin.net cliffcoggin Date: Sat Sep 26, 2009 11:51 pm ((PDT)) Many thanks John, much food for thought. One problem I always encounter using a steady is aligning the part on the axis. Get it wrong and the part walks out of the chuck as it rotates. Any tips? Cliff Coggin ------- Re: A treatise on steadies. Posted by: "John" johnx~xxstevenson-engineers.co.uk stevenson_engineers Date: Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:57 am ((PDT)) Cliff: probably many ways and various set up's with dial gauges spring to mind, not that I have ever gone that way. If I can't support with a centre first then set the steady up on the diameter I want I hunt round for a short piece of bar the same size as my diameter, if it's a weird size I turn a short slug of scrapbinium down to that size. I then set the steady up on this diameter next to the chuck, lock the two bottom fingers, then ease to top finger off and slide the steady to where it's needed and just use the top finger for adjustment. Most of the time I'm working to whole number bearing diameters and have short pieces of ground rod / silver steel / drill rod in these sizes but remember I do a lot of this work and it pays me to have it available. John S. ------- Re: A treatise on steadies. Posted by: "Ian" forumsx~xxzitnet.co.uk imarshallx~xxrocketmail.com Date: Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:01 am ((PDT)) Thanks John. I realise, now, that it was obvious but I had not thought of using a short piece centered using a tail stock centre to set up the steady and then sliding it up the bed. I have only used a steady once and gave up. This was partly because I had purchased a cheap steady and it was rubbish with the fingers not even meeting in the middle. I have got a job to do this week(end) which will require a steady so will apply what I have just learnt. Thanks Ian ------- NOTE TO FILE: Another group of helpful metalworking YouTube videos is by Luiz Ally under the username of tryally. There are good subtitles in English explaining details of his work. Check out his useful low-profile vice/vise video, and then see more videos. Although this vice was designed for a Sherline milling machine, the simple design could be adapted easily to any mill or workholding use. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anxkL8bPLUw ------- Re: Slim vise Posted by: "danp" danx~xxpines.co.il Date: Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:11 am ((PDT)) Some facts about this type of vise for those who have shown interest 1. Taig have been selling a 3 part vise for some years. you can see it here http://www.taigtools.com/c1225.html I have been using one for quite some time and it is definitely good value for money starting at about $28. It could perhaps be made better but so can many other products. The benefit over the slim vise discussed in this thread is that when you remove it from the table, the 3 components stay put on the base and there is no need to re-align them for the next use. 2. TS engineering (who made the QCTP recently discussed here) used a similar concept and made it better. See here http://www.irritatedvowel.com/Railroad/Workshop/TSEModularVise.aspx I have one of those as well. If I remember correctly it was around $80, so much more expensive than the Taig but definitely better. I do not know whether they still make / sell them. The components slide on dovetails so repeatability is better. Also there are 2 holddown bolts on the moving jaw. 3. As an aside, while searching for the vise details I came across this http://home.earthlink.net/~rmteo/_wsn/page2.html which may perhaps mean that the qctp is still available. I am not in anyway connected with Taig or TS eng., I just use thei products. I hope this helps regards Dan Pines Sherline distributor, Israel ------- Re: Slim vise - Order of Work Posted by: "Michael" michaelx~xxsuptrim.com michaeljgardner Date: Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:47 am ((PDT)) I posted four pictures of my modified slim vise (See folder labeled "Slim Vise". I'll try and take some photos tonight and give some dimensions. For now, here's the order of the work that I used. If any of the machinists here want to critique or comment on what I did or recommend a way to do it better, I'm all ears. For me, the thing was to cut the keys as early on as possible and use their registration to ensure that all subsequent operations were true and square to the world. I started with a 1" x 3" piece of T6061 aluminum about 5" long. I'll get more dimensions when I post the photos. 1) Clamp work to mill table using step blocks and indicate so that it is square. Note that in the photos the vise overhangs the table by a little on the front and on the back. I left the overhang on the front so that I could machine it truly square after I'd cut the keys into the work. 2) Drill and counterbore 6 holes. By definition these holes need to be centered in the t-slots. I used an edge finder on the front of the table to get these located as close as possible. I counter bored enough to allow the 10-32 socket caps to be a little lower than flush with the material plus .100" deeper for the keys. 3) Remove clamps and flip work and remount using step blocks. Counter bore the six holes enough to allow the socket cap heads to be a little under flush. I'm not very good at finding the center of the holes, so these ended up a little oversized. 4) Remove clamps and flip again and mount using socket caps and t-nuts. 4) Fly cut surface and then remove material to leave keys .100 above surface. Be very careful cutting the keys. My fixed jaw has a key in each t-slot, so not only must the keys fit the slots, they must be located properly. One of my keys was a little on the small side but I lucked out because its location allowed it to fit snugly against one side of the t-slot. Fortunately the other key fit, or at least one side of it did anyway. 5) Cut relief pocket for tensioning/clamping screw in moveable jaw part of work. 6) Cut groove for location screw through moveable jaw and partway into fixed jaw. If you look at the photo vise2 carefully, you can see this slot on the end of the moving jaw at about the middle of the table (around the 8.0 inch mark) and just behind the clamping screw in the fixed jaw (around 2.0 inch mark). Its purpose is to allow the moving jaw to clear a socket cap screwed into the mill table. The screw fits partially into the fixed jaw and acts as a stop to allow the vise to be located in the same place on the table every time. 7) Remove work from mill and clamp to lathe cross-slide. Indicate square and drill 5/32" tapping hole for 10-32 clamp screw. Re-drill 3/16" clearance hole only through fixed jaw portion of vise. 8) Mount work back on mill with keys in t-slots (keep fingers crossed and hope keys fit snugly). Attach using socket caps and t-nuts. 9) Fly cut or machine top surface true. 10) Cut step between moveable and fixed jaw to .100" depth and about .225" wide. (The width allows for the kerf of a bandsaw when the pieces are cut apart.) 11) Cut step on the back of the fixed jaw .100" deep .125" wide. (This allows for at least a .100" step after the parts are bandsawed apart.) Remember to cut this slot a little past the slot between the jaw faces to eliminate the radius in the jaw cut. 12) Drill any auxiliary holes. 13) Remove work; tap auxiliary holes. 14) Set up fence on band saw and cut between jaws (short side of the "L"). Re set up and cut moving piece free from fixed piece (Long side of the "L"). 15) Tap clamping screw hole in moving side of vise. Sorry for any errors in the above. I'm doing my best from memory to communicate how I did it. Michael ------- [taigtools] My review on the Proxxon 24260 machine vise and why you might want o Posted by: "lhbakeland" digitaltorquex~xxaol.com Date: Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:17 am ((PDT)) This solid steel machine vise is one of the best made and can be one of the handiest machine vises for any mini or micro mill, as well as an insert vise for larger vertical mills. I have used one for over 6 years and have been more than satisfied with it for more than 6 years. I just ordered two more. The original one was made in Germany and came in a very nice wooden box. I hope they are still made in Germany. Until recently, I have basically use it for drilling on my drill press, because the hold down slots using M6x1 hex headed screws and using a 10mm open end wrench is very awkward. I recently drilled a couple of 1/4 inch holes right above the screw position through the bottom jaw surface of the vise and used 10-32 socket headed set screws. The steel is not hardened and any high speed steel drill bit will work. This allows me to use 10-32 square nuts with my Proxxon MF70 mill, standard T-nuts with my Taig Micro-Mill, standard T-nuts with my Sherline mill, any T-nut supplied by A2Z-CNC with any other mini or micro mill. This vise, with my modifi- cation, handily and easily mounts on my Sherline 4 inch rotary table. I have gone through many imported vises of the so called "screwless variety" and still often use the Sherline #3551 model. The precision machined right angle parallel sides allows for easy squaring onto the mill table, just like any precision screwless machinist vise. While it might not be as good at preventing "movable jaw rise" as the screwless type, with my modification, the Proxxon is a real pleasure to use and it provides faster clamping and unclamping of parts for low volume production. I have no relationship with Proxxon and wish only to share my positive experience with this tool. Regards, Leo ------- How can I attach Starrett #160 clamps to Sherline table? [sherline] Posted by: "redmiataowner1997" connor.rx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Tue Aug 3, 2010 12:22 pm ((PDT)) They do not have a hole and I suspect they may be too hard to drill. :) Thanks for any ideas! Ron ------- Re: How can I attach Starrett #160 clamps to Sherline table? Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Tue Aug 3, 2010 12:34 pm ((PDT)) I usually clamp my toolmakers vises in a larger mill vice. Care must be taken not to clamp it so that the action of the smaller vice is impeded. Shims can be used to ensure that the clamping force is over the solid ends of the Starrett vice, not over the channel for the movable jaw. It's also possible to use step clamps on the solid ends or middle. I have an older Starrett Toolmakers vice with a narrower waist on the moveable block for this purpose. David Clark in Southern Maryland, USA ------- Re: How can I attach Starrett #160 clamps to Sherline table? Posted by: "chieftoolmaker" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Tue Aug 3, 2010 12:36 pm ((PDT)) Idea # 1 Strap the clamps down to the table. Use Sherline clamps and step blocks. Or make your own. Idea # 2 Burn holes through the clamp. (EDM at a friendly local machine shop) Donuts are optional ,but quite effective..... Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- NOTE TO FILE: See a conversation in the file here called "Sherline Mill Quirks or Tips" with the subject Work Holding starting Dec 1, 2010 for tips when using a milling machine that can rotate the head to horizontal. This idea is adaptable to horizontal drilling with a radial arm saw. ------- Re: Sherline monthly special [sherline] Posted by: "Will McCown" willx~xxross-mccown.com Date: Wed Mar 9, 2011 12:42 pm ((PST)) Even on special Sherline's milling vise it's still more expensive than the 2" screwless vise sold by littlemachineshop. Does anyone have both and can give a review? Will McCown, South Pasadena, CA ------- Re: Sherline monthly special Posted by: "R.L. Wurdack" dickwx~xxnwlink.com Date: Wed Mar 9, 2011 1:34 pm ((PST)) I am by no means the expert but here is my opinion: I have three of the Sherline vises. One on the rotating base. I prefer them to the one LMS that I bought some years ago. 1. They clamp to the table and workplates that I have more easily. 2. They seem to be more accurate (square), though my LMS vise is older and the current stock may have improved. 3. The rotating base is quite useful to me. 4. Parts are easily available. I bought one used that had been milled into. I replaced the jaws. 5. The Sherline parallel set complements them well. Dick ------- Re: Sherline monthly special Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Wed Mar 9, 2011 2:07 pm ((PST)) I purchased a vice from Enco 5 years ago, that I believe is identical to to one offered by LMS, which I've also examined in person at Cabin Fever. Here's what I had to say about it at the time: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/sherline/message/38909 The defects I describe were likely anomalous, the LMS vises I've examined were well and properly made. I've used both this vise and Sherline's regularly since. Used with proper care and due diligence, they are both adequate. If I could have only one, I'd probably choose the Enco/LMS product. It's all steel (vs anodized aluminum with steel jaws), heavier and longer. When making multiple parts, if you've referenced a side of the all steel vise, and position each part flush with it, the parts will be well datumed. The Sherline chuck jaws are not flush with the side of the fixed jaw, so a separate vise stop is needed for this. I prefer having a removable cross pin going all the way through the body and pull down member. It may take a moment longer to change the grip range, but once the pin is through the vise, the pull down cannot drop out, and you are absolutely certain it's properly secured. I just now walked into my shop to compare the 2 again. The Enco vise is set up on my mill, the Sherline vise was in a drawer. Tells you something. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sherline/photos/album/937902184/pic/1914 397723/view David Clark in Southern Maryland, USA ------- Re: Sherline monthly special Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Wed Mar 9, 2011 2:38 pm ((PST)) Hi Dick: Good points, thank you. Group, the LMS/Enco vise has a relief groove cut in at the base of the fixed jaw to ensure that a workpiece or parallel will fit solidly against it. A Sherline thin parallel will drop into this groove so that the pair of parallels are not the same height. This relief is not needed on a vise with removable jaws. The Sherline vise is designed to work with their clamps on their mill tables and mill tooling plate. You'll want to make clamps for the other vise that will also be compatible. You can see mine in the photo linked in my last post. I can post a dimensioned sketch if wanted, but it's pretty easy to work out. I took both vises to the inspection lab at my former workplace. Both were true and accurately made to the specs advertised. I rarely use a rotating vise base, most often use the rotary table. If a vise hasn't got a few scars on it... Best, DC ------- Re: Sherline monthly special Posted by: "wongsterwish" wongsterwishx~xxyahoo.com.sg Date: Wed Mar 9, 2011 3:27 pm ((PST)) The only issue I have with the 2 Sherline vise I have is the pull down member. Getting it hooked onto one of the slots can be tricky at times. My Taiwanese vise (matchling) came with a spring loaded pull down which snaps into position, making the adjustment painless. Regards, Wong ------- Re: Sherline monthly special Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Wed Mar 9, 2011 3:34 pm ((PST)) Hi Wong: That reminds me; there are some tips on the Sherline site regarding this vise. see: http://www.sherline.com/tip22.htm http://www.sherline.com/tip51.htm http://www.sherline.com/Tip53.htm DC ------- Re: Sherline monthly special Posted by: "wongsterwish" wongsterwishx~xxyahoo.com.sg Date: Wed Mar 9, 2011 3:50 pm ((PST)) Thanks DC. I will be cutting one of the 2 vises I've got into two soon. I find the pull down barrel a little annoying at times when I've got to hold the part in one hand and try to get the barrel into the right slot. It kept falling off. Gave up on the Sherline parallels after realizing that they're not that parallel and bought a set from Proxxon. They're nice and straight except a little too thick (around 8mm). Regards, Wong ------- Re: Sherline monthly special Posted by: "William Rutiser" wruyahoo05x~xxcomcast.net Date: Wed Mar 9, 2011 4:07 pm ((PST)) I have found that if I leave the Sherline Tee wrench in the vise's SHCS, its weight keeps the barrel in place. Bill ------- Re: Sherline monthly special Posted by: "R.L. Wurdack" dickwx~xxnwlink.com Date: Wed Mar 9, 2011 4:59 pm ((PST)) My Sherline parallels are parallel. (But what am I to do if I need more?) I use a short straight allen (not a ball end) that I have attached a knurled aluminum knob. This allows me to 'feel' the vise detents. I made it from 7075 Al and press fit it on a ground off scrap of allen wrench. The whole thing is about 2" long. I also find this short wrench handy for set ups on the tooling plate when clearances for fingers and wrenches is tight. Dick ------- Re: Sherline monthly special Posted by: "DA Dossin" danatlx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Mar 9, 2011 5:31 pm ((PST)) After a while, we all end up with many allen wrenches of the same size. Every Sherline accessory comes with allen wrenches if required. I took two of the excess allen wrenches, shortened up the long end and then slipped on a short piece of brass that I knurled. (I am a goooooood knurler.) This makes the allen wrenches easier to find when I drop them on the floor, and also the knurled brass makes it easier on my fingers. Same idea as the suggestion for the tommy bars. DanD. ------- Re: Sherline monthly special Posted by: "Wayne Brandon" tiktokx~xxcox.net Date: Wed Mar 9, 2011 3:53 pm ((PST)) David: A friend recently purchased a 1" SHARS insert vise on eBay. Go to the bottom of this page for a listing of SHARS vises. http://tinyurl.com/4qw3a6r As received, it was useless but after he made a new pulldown barrel, it is a nice little vise. It appears to be off the same assembly line as the others mentioned so they may still have the problem you described. Wayne ------- Re: Sherline monthly special Posted by: "Will McCown" willx~xxross-mccown.com Date: Wed Mar 9, 2011 4:33 pm ((PST)) On 3/9/2011 4:04 PM, Martin Dobbins wrote: > It looks like Sherline have stopped supplying parallels as of > November 2010, according to item #7505 shown at Yes I noticed that as well. Silly question: (but please understand I've never held any of these in person.) The Sherline's pull down mechanism seems like it is just a matter of slipping it from one notch to the next to make the large size adjustments. Is this true for the LMS and similar ones as well? Or is there a pin that goes into the holes I can see in the pictures that you have to pull out to slip the hold down to the next notch? Will McCown, South Pasadena, CA ------- Re: Sherline monthly special Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Wed Mar 9, 2011 4:55 pm ((PST)) Hi Will: The pull down on the Sherline vise does move from one notch to the next as you describe. Others have a cross pin going all the way through. The one that I bought from Enco was designed for a cross pin, was sold with a short pin that fit into notches. I replaced the short pin with a cross pin because the pull down was badly made and the short pin did not work well. With any vise of this type it's very important to understand the intent of the design and use it properly. However the pull down is held, it must be in the correct position for the thickness of the work piece. And, the work must be well centered, or the load well distributed in the jaws. Sherline's instructions do a good job of explaining this: http://www.sherline.com/3551inst.pdf To get familiar with any small vise of this type, hold it in your hands and carefully examine the holding action on objects of various thicknesses with the hold down in different positions. You'll quickly see how the position must be selected to get the screw at the proper angle to the movable jaw. I prefer the cross pin type, myself. DC ------- Re: Sherline monthly special Posted by: "Thayer Syme" thayerx~xxgryffinaero.com Date: Wed Mar 9, 2011 5:56 pm ((PST)) >http://www.sherline.com/Tip53.htm I modified my jaws similarly to as described here, but with a twist, literally. I flipped the jaws top to bottom before milling the relief to maintain the integrity of the v groove that Mr. Lang sacrificed. Almost everything that I have milled since has been held in the relief. I believe my original inspiration came from Luis' thin vise as detailed in his Tryally videos. Thayer ------- Re: Sherline monthly special Posted by: "DA Dossin" danatlx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Mar 9, 2011 6:03 pm ((PST)) Thayer: As I understand what you are saying, you inverted the removable jaws and then, milled part of the jaws down? A pic would be a great hint. How much of the replaceable jaw did you mill down? Have you had any noticeable damage to the aluminum part of the jaws? DanD. ------- Re: Sherline monthly special Posted by: "Thayer Syme" thayerx~xxgryffinaero.com Date: Wed Mar 9, 2011 7:17 pm ((PST)) Dan, I just posted a photo showing my modified jaws. Thayer ------- Re: Sherline monthly special Posted by: "Thayer Syme" thayerx~xxgryffinaero.com Date: Wed Mar 9, 2011 7:38 pm ((PST)) >Thayer, All things are clear now, thank you. >The benefit of the stop is? DanD. Well, Jerry G told me it was a good thing when I bought the vise from him so I believed it. It turns out that he was right again. It is useful whenever you want to make multiple parts. Slide the first up against the stop, locate the part to the spindle, mill as required, then replace with the next part and mill again. Thayer ------- Re: Sherline monthly special Posted by: "JERRY G" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:21 am ((PST)) Also, in making multiple parts with holes. The key is repetition. Just following a time honored method used in tool rooms/machine shops on full size mills. Somewhere here is my table mill stop. Can't find it. I will make another, and post pics when done. Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Work holding [SherlineCNC] Posted by: "botwire" botwirex~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:53 pm ((PDT)) Hello Guys, I have already cut several small brackets on my 5400 mill but I have been having some minor issues with the final cut. The bracket doesn't always cut fully through in some areas and I'm sure it has to do with the wood placed under the part not being exactly true in the x/y plane. I was wondering what you guys do for holding sheet aluminum? Do you make the stock slightly larger for the clamps to clamp on to? Do you use double sided sticky tape? Fixtures? Double sided tape won't really work for the drilling operations because the point will end up drilling in the table. I have used stock longer in the x-plane so clamps can clamp on the ends but then you end up wasting material. Fixtures would probably be the best option, but I really would like to hear from all of you what you do. ------- Re: Work holding Posted by: "EngFromSantaClara" ldmillerx~xxastound.net Date: Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:09 pm ((PDT)) For aluminum sheet "cookie cutter" milling I either use double-sided sticky tape or I design the part to accommodate hold-down screws. In both cases a sacrificial plate is required, either acrylic or aluminum, and I cut through the thickness of the part by 10 or 15 thousandths. That guarantees that the part will be freed. On milling, the two biggest challenges for me have been trying to figure out how to hold the part and figuring out where the end of the cutter (z-axis) is. For a single piece, the sacrificial plate is a bit of a waste of material, but it can be re-used for identical or similar pieces. Larry ------- Re: Work holding Posted by: "KM6VV" KM6VVx~xxSBCglobal.net Date: Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:54 pm ((PDT)) Can you incorporate any holes into your part to help hold? If not, use a little extra stock to give you a purchase. Just plan on cutting a little deeper then the thickness of the stock, no harm! You might be able to countersink the plywood sacrificial stock, and take a flycut pass on it to get it flatter. I cut a lot of little brackets for robots. Alan KM6VV ------- Re: Work holding Posted by: "Adam Collins" rxforspeedx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:14 pm ((PDT)) Investing in a quality tooling plate could help a bit with the squareness of the finished parts. Using a CNC 5400, you could program a small recess in one end/side of the plate for making multiple identical pieces too. Add an optional stop before the part is completely profiled or cut through to add a toe clamp or hold down screw(s) so there's less chance of marring the finished product and many issues you're experiencing can be resolved. An added benefit is that you won't have to clean all those nasty wood shavings from the friction surfaces and leadscrew that you'd see with a wooden sacrificial plate. Ideally sheet metal should be cut on a plasma table, laser table, or even better a water jet. But I'm guessing you're like many of us and don't have access to those tools. CNC plasma tables are becoming more affordable, but all I've seen are still many times the cost of even a complete Sherline CNC mill package, and plasma cut parts still need to be finished (at least the slag ground away but the edges are rough too). Adam ------- Re: Work holding Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Fri Jun 17, 2011 5:31 am ((PDT)) I've been using sheet ABS plastic for a sacrificial plate. Usually 1/4 inch thick, which allows drilling through the part and into the plastic without reaching the mill plate or table. ABS sheet is inexpensive, flat and uniform in thickness. See: http://www.mcmaster.com/#abs/=csb0xd Usually I can contrive to put some clamping features, holes or tabs, that will be consumed by subsequent machining operations, in my thin parts. Occasionally I resort to double sided tape. I've found fiber reinforced carpet tape holds best. It's a little messy to clean up, but mineral spirits work well. An alternative I've used with good success is to glue the thin part to an aluminum sacrificial plate with cyanoacylate super glue. Apply heat to release, either with a small torch or by placing on an electric hot plate. Do this outside, as fumes are toxic. Clean up residue with acetone. Finally, if parts are really thin and tend to lift, use down cutting end mills. See: http://www.soigeneris.com/PreciseBits_DownCut_End_Mills-details.aspx for one source. David Clark in Southern Maryland, USA ------- Re: Work holding Posted by: "botwire" botwirex~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Jun 17, 2011 6:09 am ((PDT)) Thanks Guys! Great ideas. Drilling recessed holes to mount the plate to the table is going to take some measuring in order to make the cap screws fit. What size and length cap screws do you use? Too long and they bottom out, too short and they can't reach the T-nut so the recess has to be of the right depth and the screw of the right length. ------- Re: Work holding Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Fri Jun 17, 2011 6:30 am ((PDT)) Easy answer: instead of cap screws, use threaded stock and put a nut on top. I most often place the sacrificial plate on top of the mill tooling plate. Sherline pn 3560. This allows much more latitude in the length of hold down fasteners. DC ------- Re: Work holding Posted by: "timgoldstein" timgx~xxktmarketing.com Date: Sat Jun 18, 2011 6:46 am ((PDT)) We frequently buy the entire plate on ABS, Delran, Acrylic and other plastics. I can tell you from experience they are seldom uniform in thickness over the entire plate. Small pieces out of the plate may seem uniform, but it is not even close to proper ground tooling plate material. That is not to say the material and technique is not useful. You just need to be aware that plastics have a lot larger acceptable tolerance than metal when purchasing them and using in projects. If anyone is looking for a tooling plate for their Sherline, here is a link to our A2Z CNC versions made from proper cast aluminum tooling plate stock that is ground on both sides: www.a2zcorp.us/store/Category.asp?Category=ToolingPlate%3ASherline They are intended to be sacrificial and not treated like it is the top of your table. Tim Goldstein A2Z Corp A2Z CNC division 3955 S Mariposa St Englewood CO 80110 (720) 833-9300 Toll Free (877) 754-7465 www.A2ZCorp.us/store USA made accessories for desktop mills & lathes. Specialized No Mar tools for the jewelry industry. ------- Re: Work holding Posted by: "botwire" botwirex~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:15 am ((PDT)) I agree for precision facing, fly cutting, a tooling plate with tight tolerances is ideal. In my case, the components that I am cutting use profile operations. True, the edges of the part my not be entirely perpendicular to the plate surface, but this tolerance does not need to be so precise. Sheet plastic would be a much better option, and since I would be cutting more than the thickness of the part, that would eliminate any thickness variations that might be present in the sacrificial material being used. Great ideas being offered here. I appreciate all the input. ------- Re: Work holding Posted by: "tiffyted" tiffytedx~xxtalktalk.net Date: Sat Jun 18, 2011 8:18 am ((PDT)) This is how I generally hold thin sheets including PCB's. If there are many repeats clamp a couple of pieces to the bed to provide stops so the the tooling plate may be repeatedly replaced accurately. Make a tooling plate from a piece af aluminium, that is larger than the item to be made, and a minimum of 5mm (3/16")thick and clamp to the table using screws that are below flush with the top surface. Surface machine the plate to provide a good flat surface true to the quill. Drill dowel holes for small dia dowel pins in the tooling plate to reference the blank material. Stick the sheet to the top of the tooling plate using a few small beads of cynoacrylic adhesive (superglue). If care is used with the placement of the beads and the amount of glue used, with the help of a little extra weight the sheet will self level. After a couple of minutes the small dowel pins can be removed and the sheet can be machined. After machining remove the tooling plate with the finished item stuck to it and place in a small bath of acetone. Usually the acetone will destroy the superglue in a few minutes and allow the item to be separated from the tooling plate. A couple of other ways I have used with success: Sheet Glue - this is a thin sheet of glue about 0.1mm thick that becomes liquid glue at about 120 degrees C. It is cut to size and can be melted on a hotplate, or with a hot air gun, or domestic iron. It is used by woodworkers for gluing sheet veneers. Google sheet glue should provide a supplier. Shellac - this is a favorite of the watch and clockmakers. When mixed with an amount of resin and heated it becomes very sticky allowing sheet material to be fixed to the tooling plate. After machining re-heat to remove the work or soak in methylated spirit [denatured alcohol] to soften the shellac so the work can be removed from the plate All will require tooling plates to prevent the mill table being damaged. In some cases where accuracy is not too important Medium Density Fibre Board (MDF) may provide an adequate tooling plate when using superglue, but whatever is used it is advisable to surface machine it to the table before use. Of course if you have the equipment simple vacuum plates can be made to hold the work. It sounds a long winded way, but once made the tooling plate(s) are re-usable many times. Once they become littered with toolmarks they can be re-machined many times. Warning, don't expect the above to be suitable for material thicker than about 1.5mm (1/16"). ------- Re: Work holding Posted by: "botwire" botwirex~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:50 pm ((PDT)) Your description is very close to my idea I had. The fixture that I want to make for cutting groups of 8 brackets will use washers to clamp down on the edges of the sheet material. The screw locations in the bottom left corner of the fixture will act as locating pins. the fixture is made to accommodate material at or above 7" in the x and at or above 3.5" in the y. This way when cutting raw stock it does not have to be exact. The 8 holes are recessed about .1" to allow the circle profile to be cut fully through at which point it will provide access to the 1/4-20 threads. 1/4-20 cap screws and washers will clamp the center of the part, so when the final profile is cut free from the material it will be held firmly in place from this bolt. Below is a link to a screenshot of the fixture design I made. http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/botwire/Bracket.png ------- Re: Enco screwless vise [taigtools] Posted by: "Bill Marvel" stl.billx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Oct 15, 2011 6:10 pm ((PDT)) On Sat, 10/15/11, Shane Adams wrote: > Thanks all for the replies about the vise. It's my anniversary weekend [1st!] so I'm a bit absent. I am going to sit down later next week and fiddle with the vise to get a better understanding of how it works. < Shane: I am so glad you brought this up. I got a screwless vice as one of Little Machine Shop's weekly bargains. It is nicely carved and as close to true as I can measure. The mechanics were a little sloppy. I had to replace the crosspin. The retaining spring is worthless. It took me a while and a little examination and practice to get comfortable with it. I wouldn't trade it for anything else. But, I sometimes need to remind myself that I am trading accuracy for speed and convenience. One of the things I taught myself is basic to using the screwless vice. When I am setting up a piece to be milled, I loosen the screw and open the movable jaw wide. I place my work against the stationary jaw with the parallels in their approximate location. I close the jaw with one hand and keep the pressure on the work piece. Don't let go! I use the other hand to position the parallels and lightly tighten the screw. I seat the work against the parallels with a wooden mallet or deadblow hammer. Takes longer to explain than to do once you get the hang of it. I figured out that screwless vices do not like grease. 30 wt. motor oil works well. They seem to work better when clean. I know they are more accurate. Have fun, guy! bill ------- Re: Enco screwless vise Posted by: "lhbakeland" digitaltorquex~xxaol.com Date: Sat Oct 15, 2011 8:33 pm ((PDT)) Over the past 10 years, I have bought, used and sold nearly 20 screwless vises including at least five of the Enco's. The main issue that was the biggest problem was the bottom nut and cross bar that "locks into the slots." The nut is very poorly fitted to the sides of the channel in which it slides. The nut often jams and does not lock up the vise. To correct this, I made cusom nuts that closely matched the width of the bottom channel and stayed in the channel when it moves back and forth. The bottom of the custom nut would be namd long enough for it to "slide" on the top of the milling table as it slides in the channel. I did this, because I got fed up with taking the vise off of the mill table to clear a jam. For me, the "perfect" vise has been the Sherline #3551 milling vise. I now own four of them and use them exclusively. The bottom nut is closely and correctly fitted without modification. A favorite modification that I did to the 3551 was to replace the SHCS with a stud (locked in place on the bottom with a 1/4 inch 10-32 setscrew) and a special long 10-32 nut that I made from 3/8" stainless hex bar. I cut off and shortened 3/8" open end wrench makes and ideal closing tool. For very light work, I used a special Novo-grip wing nut instead of the nut. Hope this helps someone, Leo ------- Re: Enco screwless vise Posted by: "retrosurfer1959" shawnwoolleyx~xxmac.com Date: Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:18 pm ((PDT)) I've gotta agree on the Sherline vice, cheap but well made, accurate and easy to adjust. I'm not crazy about the light weight of the chines themselves but I gotta admit my Taig mill has 2 Sherline screwless vices and the Sherline rotary table mounted on a angle plate on it 90% of the time; with those three devices just left on the mill I can fit and work most of the jewelry pieces I'm working on. ------- Re: Right angle attachment: do you buy or make? [SherlineCNC] Posted by: "Ron Ginger" rongingerx~xxroadrunner.com Date: Fri Nov 4, 2011 3:53 am ((PDT)) > Also if I get the tooling plate, should I have it professionally anodized since it will get scratched up pretty fast won't it, and over time lose flatness? I don't think the standard tooling plate is anodized at all or even heat treated? < The tooling plate is meant to be a sacrifice plate -- you often bolt parts to it and mill around the outline, slightly cutting the plate. Then you use a flat block to sand off any burrs before you use it again. Having it anodized would be a waste, and maybe even hard on your cutters. The base plate is another story -- it should not get cut, so anodize is a good finish. ron ginger ------- Re: Right angle attachment: do you buy or make? Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Fri Nov 4, 2011 8:06 am ((PDT)) I have duplicated my tooling plates' hole patterns in 1/4 sheets of ABS plastic. Easy to make -- saw, stack, and match drill a batch at time. Place between the aluminum tooling plate and the work. Good clamping surface, cheap, disposable, no additional tool wear... David Clark in Southern Maryland, USA ------- Re: Right angle attachment: do you buy or make? Posted by: "Dave Hylands" dhylandsx~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Nov 4, 2011 9:13 am ((PDT)) Hi guys: Similarly, I use tempered hardboard, which is available in 1/8" and 1/4" thicknesses. You can buy it in 2'x4', 4'x4' or 4'x8' sheets at Home Depot and other places like that. Tempered hardboard is sort of like pegboard, but it has the smooth finish on both sides and no holes. Dave Hylands Shuswap, BC, Canada http://www.davehylands.com ------- Re: Right angle attachment: do you buy or make? Posted by: "Martin Dobbins" trainnutzx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Nov 4, 2011 10:38 am ((PDT)) Hi David and David, This is interesting because I have always shied away from machining plastic and wood, I envisage a fused mess with plastic and a horrendous clean up job with wood. How flat (consistent thickness) is the ABS and tempered hardboard? What kinds of feeds and speeds produce the best results on the hardboard and ABS? Martin ------- Re: Right angle attachment: do you buy or make? Posted by: "sherlinenoob" ly_smellx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Nov 4, 2011 10:55 am ((PDT)) Plastic has been fine. I have only milled into acrylic and delrin. I stay away from wood also. I don't think I will ever be milling any wood on my sherline, ever. Too much of a mess and I want to keep my area clean and also not get fine dust that gets clogged all over the ways and screws. Although, with a very good vacuuming setup near the spindle and tool, you can keep that mess to a minimum and maybe not even be a problem. I don't have such a setup yet. Even if I did I still won't touch wood on the sherline. With plastics I think you should use low RPM and ensure good chip clearance from the cutting tool as much as possible. The fusing happens because the plastic chips rubs onto plastic leading to a lot of heat, and since most people work with thermoplastics with a low melting temperature in the ~220C range, it melts pretty easily. I run mine at around ~700 RPM + or - with a variety of tool sizes, where there is sufficient torque also, with a moderate feedrate of around 60mm/s taking moderately deep cuts. I also run a vacuum as much as possible (manually for now) to suck away the chips to prevent clogging. ------- Re: Right angle attachment: do you buy or make? Posted by: "RCGuy" calvino.rcx~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Nov 4, 2011 11:02 am ((PDT)) Wood router bits can help cut wood but wood is wood, it's messy! For plastic I run 2-3 flute tools and I prefer an air blast to clear chips. Not only does it keep the tool cool it REALLY works to blow chips out. Mind you this is in an enclosed environment where Delrin has somewhere to go without making a mess! General rule with plastics is to run about 2x the chipload you would with aluminum on things like Delrin. Some stuff like Lexan and Acrylic can be a joy with melting so air blast at a minimum is key. Sometimes even mist or flood coolant is very helpful. Also sharp... SHARP tools are critical. I love Niagara 3-flute A337 37* helix end mills with TiCN coating for both plastic {Delrin} and aluminum. They are RAZOR SHARP and hold an edge forever... Nothing but praises for them here! Get on the mailing list for sites like MSC and Travers Tool, Travers seems to have them on sale all the time. ------- Re: Right angle attachment: do you buy or make? Posted by: "Dave Hylands" dhylandsx~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Nov 4, 2011 11:54 am ((PDT)) On Fri, Nov 4, 2011, Alan wrote: > Sure you aren't talking about sacrificial stock? I use 1/4" > paneling for that job. Hi Alan: Yeah - I'm talking about sacrificial plates. I don't "machine" them per se. When I do make full size ones, I cut the larger sheets to size on my table saw and use a drill press to put clearance holes (no threading). However, typically, I just keep a box of scraps and just find a scrap piece that's about the right size, and drill whatever holes I actually need rather than drilling all possible holes. Many times I don't need any holes. The tempered hardboard is also really easy to cut with a handsaw. The thickness of a given piece of hardboard is pretty uniform. I just measured a few 1/4" pieces and they were all 0.241 to 0.242 over 8". Dave Hylands Shuswap, BC, Canada http://www.davehylands.com ------- Re: Right angle attachment: do you buy or make? Posted by: "Alan" KM6VVx~xxSBCglobal.net Date: Fri Nov 4, 2011 12:27 pm ((PDT)) Hi Dave: The hardboard sounds like it would work just fine. I've also found MDF useful. For milling PCBs, I have a hardwood piece with countersunk holes to take 10-32 hold-downs. Then I take a light pass across it with a fly cutter or end mill. A few extra clearance holes to match my PCB design complete the fixture. Stepped-clamping blocks and the tooling plate are my main hold-down system, I can't remember when I last used the vise. Alan KM6VV ------- [Actual subject now is size needed for machinist jacks] Re: TPI for Sherline 67026 [SherlineCNC] Posted by: "Dave Hylands" dhylandsx~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:59 pm ((PST)) On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 8:40 AM, Tom Wade wrote: > Made a set of machinist jacks for the Sherline, following your web site, > several years ago. Have still never used them. Ah, you never know. > Now I find that I need a set for the Bridgeport, as I'm machining the > odd part much longer than the vise, and a few parts even longer than > the table. Any idea how to determine a size for these jacks? Hi Tom, I tend to use them with my clamps when I don't have room to use step-blocks. Like when trying to clamp objects to the rotary table. The clamps don't need a precise height, so I also often use scraps of metal. If a jack is the right size I use it. Having multiple sizes can be useful as well. Probably a decent guideline is the distance from the table top to the bottom of your vise. If your vise has a V for holding round material, then having a jack which can reach that might be useful. Here's a photo where I used some for support like that: http://www.davehylands.com/Wood-Working/Tool-Rest/Sm all/11-Flat-on-Rest.html My jacks weren't quite high enough, so I wound up putting some scraps underneath them. Dave Hylands Shuswap, BC, Canada http://www.davehylands.com ------- new article: The Lowly Bench Block [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "RG Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Mon Jan 2, 2012 7:04 am ((PST)) This article is intended for those new to our hobby of metal working. It discusses a tool called a "Bench Block". If you are interested, please see http://rick.sparber.org/beb.pdf Your comments and questions are welcome. All of us are smarter than any one of us. Rick ------- Re: new article: The Lowly Bench Block Posted by: "jworman" jwormanx~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Jan 2, 2012 7:53 pm ((PST)) Hi Rick, thanks for the writeup. It's a keeper. I can't say I'm a complete "new to the hobby", but after reading this I might admit to being dumber than many. I'm going to have to get one of those Bench Blocks. One little tip that I've had pretty good luck with is a way to make a work piece level to the jaws of a bench vise or drill press vise. I put the part into the vise with just enough pressure to hold it in place, then I put (usually two) of those 90° welding magnets on top of the work piece, spanning across to the jaws. I loosen the vise jaws and get to hear a bit of a 'clunk' as the magnet, work piece and vise jaws come into one plane. It may not be perfect, but it sure beats the way I used to try to do it. My eyes don't seem to notice little errors like they used to. ------- Re: new article: The Lowly Bench Block Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Mon Jan 2, 2012 9:04 pm ((PST)) .....abt 30 years ago, i got very tired of cockeyed tapped thrds, & made a tap guide from a 2in round bar abt one in thick.....invaluable .... if you make one, remember taps are circa 10 thou oversize of nominal, so will need larger size drill bit for the guide holes... my V groove w/ center hole is on a rectangular plate w/ tapped holes & integral clamp........oh yeah, tap guide /bench block is also very useful for driving out pins & not losing them. best wishes docn8as ------- Re: new article: The Lowly Bench Block Posted by: "Paul" hglentx~xxfrii.com Date: Wed Jan 4, 2012 8:08 am ((PST)) Any one have guidance to a drawing? I have seen one of these in use and wanted to make it, but didn't get a clue as to recommended dimensions, angles and drill holes. I would like to turn one out on the new too me 110-1340 lathe. TNX Paul K. ------- Re: new article: The Lowly Bench Block Posted by: "RG Sparber" rgsparberx~xxaol.com Date: Wed Jan 4, 2012 9:48 am ((PST)) Paul, The diameter is around 2 to 3" and the height is around 1 to 1.5". The V should be 90 degrees and cut so it crosses the center. The holes can be chosen to pass your favorite taps. The only thing that really matters is that the top and bottom be reasonably parallel. I would chuck up some 12L14 free machining steel and face the end. Then take a light clean up cut on its perimeter for around 1`.5". Remove the bar and saw off around 1.5" of it. Then mount back in the lathe with the sawn part out. Use a set of parallels to insure that the puck's machined bottom is parallel to the face of the chuck. Tighten the jaws. Then face off the sawed end. Drill a central hole of around 1/2" and then turn the recess starting at this hole and moving out. The idea is to cut a recess. This recess can be 0.1" deep or deeper if you like. The V can be milled on your lathe using a spotting drill with a 90 degree point. It would be easier on a mill. Do take care to align all holes passing through the V. Is that clear as mud? Rick ------- Re: new article: The Lowly Bench Block Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Wed Jan 4, 2012 1:55 pm ((PST)) > Is that clear as mud? you forgot to tell him to KNURL the middle of the perimeter ..!!!!!.. also i find that if i am going to stamp my name on a tool /project, i will finish it more carefully .he he he, (yeah, i have a stamp for my rebarreling / chambering rifle days ..probably prohibitively costly near 50 yrs later ...) doc ------- Re: new article: The Lowly Bench Block Posted by: "Glenn N" sleykinx~xxcharter.net Date: Wed Jan 4, 2012 11:07 am ((PST)) Here is a trick I use when messing with parallels. I use a piece of foam rubber to hold them in place while I am setting the part and tightening the chuck or vise. I got a big piece that is pre cut into blocks that pull apart as you need them. They use it in cases so you can make pockets in the foam. Any foam would do but this is really handy :) (and I didn't need it in the case I bought..) ------- Re: new article: The Lowly Bench Block Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Wed Jan 4, 2012 1:42 pm ((PST)) January 03, 2012 2:16 PM Doc wrote: > Yep ....15 plus yrs ago .....havent used it a lot, since i dont do many model projects, but the tapguide/bench block is in regular mandatory use ....i recently fitted a late model monarch A taper attach to my earlier mod A, & had to drill /tap two xtra 1/2x13 holes on rear verticle face of the carriage....out came the tap guide &, IIRC 3/16 in bit (barely larger than the web of the final drill)in 1/2in portable drill ..then went to the tap size drill to bring to size.....& i had to make a special tap guide block for drilling & tapping the 1/2 in hole ...all 4 bolts now went it smoothly w/ 1/64 clearance holes in taper attach......wud have necessitated cariage removal or a "fudge job " w/ an xtra pair of eyes at 90 deg, ...w/out the guide......i had to REALLY shove w/ my thigh even w/ the initial hole ....caveat///you can still tap cockeyed if not paying attenti on using a tap guide.!. .....you may ponder how i know this ....but not NEAR as bad as not paying attention w/OUT the guide.....best wishes doc < Jan 4, 2012 7:38 am Rick wrote: >Doc, I can't say that I use my finger plate as much as my bench block, but it is still worth owning. It just occurred to me that fitting a hold down finger to a bench block might be a nice improvement as long as it could be easily removed. Having a tap guide enables you to tap squarely but when my guide is not flat on the surface, I get bad results. If I had to drill and tap more than one hole and it was critical, I would first drill tap holes in the needed pattern in a block of scrap with a flat bottom. Then I would use the block to locate my first hole and drill it square. Then I would drill the first hole in the block to clearance and use it to guide my tap. Next, I would run a bolt through the block and into my new tapped hole. Once tightened, I would have a good fixture for drilling the rest of the tap holes. Remove the block, drill rest of holes in block to clearance, and remount the block. Then run my tap through the next hole and add a bolt. The remaining holes could just be tapped without need for a more bolts. How does that sound to you? Rick < agree ...but as long as we go to all that effort, i think since the remaining holes in tap plate were clearance drilled, i wud transfer punch them before drillng w/ a tap size in a clearance hole.... NOW, the problem is laying out the special tap plate W/OUT coordinate readouts....which i dont have ...... FWIW ..the olde tyme tool maker way .....when "deadly "serious, which is rare, i center punch & scribe concentric circles around it one less than fullsize, the other just a TAD over.....then, use a wiggler to center it on whatever machine you use to drill ....spot drill w. a ridgid drill, ususally a center drill, shortened ....then start the correct drill & check the circles for concentricity ..if OUT, take the small end of a rat tail file that you have broken off ...grind a 60deg bevel on end & tap on the end you have annealed, chiseling a semi circle groove in the direction you need to go to draw the drill .(.or as many grooves as you think you need ....) once the drill is cutting full diameter, " alles verlosen..", the die is cast ........again when serious, i will drill undersize depending on how far OFF i think my hand ground drill bits are ( ususally a 64Th.under) ...& finish w/ correct size ...if the correct size bit has only one face cutting, it still will be on or w/in a thou or so since the center is not guiding it ....last one i did this week was dead on......for laying out the remaining hole (s) ..i use my divider & vernier to scribe, which has, as they all shud, prick points on bar / slide so you can set the distance to a thou ( not +- a thou like digital /dial ) ...maybe even tighter w/ a glass & a good eye to interpolate .... one more thing for those who may not know ..... if drilling in the lathe & the drill which you so carefully centered on the punch mark, suddenly goes to h---, & starts "wobbling", take the back end of armstrong tool holder & shove the bit off of the mark a tad....now as you increase the cut gradually release the pressure & the drill will go true, as above when cutting full diameter, it is all over ... and how do you center up the punch mark?.....you can start w/ sticking the dead center in or near & adjusting the 4 jaw close, or use the concentric rings ....then use the center finder, abt 6-7 in long, male 60 deg on front, female on rear ...one end in punch mark, other in the center ...mount an indicator & read the runout, correcting ..... the center tool is easier to use if the female end is spring loaded..... & you won't have to spend $100+ as someone did for the harder to use Starrett ..... best wishes doc ------- NOTE TO FILE: An interesting conversation took place in the SherlineCNC group at Yahoo titled "Helicoils -- from tooling plate thread" starting Sat May 12, 2012 and it can be found here in the Threading (Lathe and Otherwise) text file in the Metal Lathe Files section. The conversation does indeed provide some interesting and useful information about tooling plates and helicoils, and briefly goes into the matter of products that can be used for tooling (or backing) plates to hold work. Some materials like MDF or ABS plastic when cut or machined have safety implications that are briefly discussed. You would be well advised to do more research and take adequate safety precautions when using these and other substances. ------- T Nuts from A2Z [taigtools] [and how to make your own] Posted by: "Don" Donx~xxCampbell-Gemstones.com Date: Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:35 pm ((PDT)) I'm putting my Taig CNC conversion mill back on line. It's taking longer than I expected as it seems I have to make something in order to make something else for the mill. I finally bit the bullet and bought a set of T nuts for the mill and for the lathe from A2Z. They arrived yesterday. I started making a set of studs for Mill T-nuts using the tail stock die holder I acquired last year. My first use of it. Was I pleased with the results. I was busy patting myself on the back as to the depth of thread I was getting on each stud as they would thread into the T nut and come up about 1 thread from sticking out the bottom. Man was I good. Then I threaded the top of the studs and when I used a T nut to check that thread, Whoops, it stopped just about 1 thread before it penetrated the bottom of the nut. I tried another stud and the same. I grabbed a 10-32 socket head and guess what, it stopped about 1 threat before the end of the T nut. Duhhh. That is the design of their nuts. An all thread will stop before hitting the bottom of the T slot. I've never seen any claim of this, but it was a pleasant surprise. When I checked the nuts for the lathe, the same depth of thread was held. I'm happy. Makes my stud making a lot easier. Don ------- Re: T Nuts from A2Z Posted by: "Paul J. Ste. Marie" taigx~xxste-marie.org Date: Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:08 pm ((PDT)) I'm pretty sure they mention it on their webpage. When I've made my own t-nuts, I drilled a blind hole and finished tapping with a bottoming tap, but that is a royal PITA. I'd be tempted to just give the bottom a few whacks with a center punch to close off the bottom thread next time. ------- Re: T Nuts from A2Z Posted by: "Dean" deanofidx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:47 pm ((PDT)) When I made the T-nuts for my mill, I put a ball bearing on the bottom thread of the nuts and gave it a wallop with a hammer. It does the same thing, keeping the stud from going all the way through and scarring the bottom of the T slots. Dean ------- Re: T Nuts from A2Z Posted by: "Stan Stocker" skstockerx~xxcomcast.net Date: Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:57 am ((PDT)) Hi Don, They are called "imperfect" threads, and are a standard convention for T nuts in larger sizes. As Taig used square nuts and Sherline threads T nuts all the way through we don't get to see this often on smaller machines. It is a nice feature. Helps to avoid jacking up the T slots and deforming (aluminum), or breaking them out in cast iron tables. If making your own T nuts, just use a taper tap and stop when the tip comes through. In this small a size, you might even have to go with a plug tap and leave just one to one and a half threads partially formed. Take care, Stan ------- Re: T Nuts from A2Z Posted by: "Peter Homann" groupsx~xxhomanndesigns.com Date: Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:00 am ((PDT)) Worse than scarring the bottom of the T-slot, you can actually break the top of the T-slot Cheers, Peter ------- Re: T Nuts from A2Z- Tapping head Posted by: "David Underwood" dave.underwoodx~xxsympatico.ca Date: Sun Jun 17, 2012 10:55 am ((PDT)) Paul, they're actually easy to make. Here's how I made mine: http://toolingaround.ca/tmt.html David Underwood ------- Re: T Nuts from A2Z- Tapping head Posted by: "Paul J. Ste. Marie" taigx~xxste-marie.org Date: Sun Jun 17, 2012 12:44 pm ((PDT)) Yeah, I've made them for the main slots, just not the front slot. Looking at Machinery's Handbook, 4-40 hex nuts are 0.25" across the flats and up to 0.098" thick, so those dimensions should work for the top of the T. There's some other odd slots on the Taigs on the headstock, tailstock, and side of the lathe cross-slide. ------- Re: A2Z tooling plate [taigtools] Posted by: "Jake Horky" jacob.horkyx~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:54 am ((PDT)) I have their Universal Tooling Plate (*TPU6X13*) on my CNC setup and it's awesome! The quality is outstanding, and the funtionality and speed of setup it provides has made prototyping parts out of flat stock much more enjoyable. I went with the Universal plate because it's 6" deep. I found I would use the depth more than I ever use the width of the table. This extra depth makes setup and clamping a dream. It's so convenient to be able to clamp along the entire edge of a plate of aluminum, instead of just the ends. I wouldn't hesitate to order it again, so if the Universal plate was included in the 15% off it would be a no brainer (at least for me and the type of work I do). ps - I don't work for them I just really like my clamping plate (and the set of milling clamps I ordered to go with it). ------- Re: A2Z tooling plate Posted by: "joe M" joe9mailx~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:02 am ((PDT)) Hello Jake, What kind of (10/32") screws (length?) or nuts (t-nuts or no nuts) do you use with the "universal plate"? Or, are there any other accessories that you would recommend with this? I am planning to use the tooling plate to mill pcb's (both sides), but, could not figure out what I can use to clamp the pcb to the "tooling plate" to ensure that I get the same touch-off/alignment for the other side too. Again, thanks a lot for responding. I found my experience agreeing with your observation on the "I found I would use the depth more than I ever use the width of the table.". Thanks again, Joe ------- Re: A2Z tooling plate Posted by: "Brian J. Fisher" brianx~xxcadcamcomputers.com Date: Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:51 am ((PDT)) Just use "Nitto Denko/Permacel P-02 Double Coated Kraft Paper Tape" to hold the thin fiberglass work piece in place, works like a charm. ------- Re: A2Z tooling plate Posted by: "Jake Horky" jacob.horkyx~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:18 am ((PDT)) When I ordered my tooling plate, I also I ordered the set of small milling clamps and their set of threaded rods w/ spherical nuts. I knew that I'd use these because I had made my own sets of both in the past. The ones I made were pretty bad, which is why I bit the bullet and ordered nice quality sets. I don't think these would help you to mill pcb's though. I really don't know what kind of clamps you'd use to do it right. However, I did use my homemade milling clamps to hold pcb's once, and it worked alright, but it's probably not the best solution. The pcb2gcode Yahoo group used to be very active, and I think there was a big long conversation about workholding. You might want to check over there. I also ordered a set of Tuff nuts, but since the tooling plate is threaded, the only use they get is to hold the tooling plate to the milling table. I can't remember what length of cap head machine screw I used though. I have a complete set of 10-32 hardware in all lengths so I don't really keep track. Btw, I use cap head machine screws with the milling clamps. I use the threaded rods & spherical nuts for step clamps. In other words, you don't need the threaded rods and spherical nuts with the milling clamps. ------- Re: A2Z tooling plate Posted by: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:12 pm ((PDT)) What you want to do is make a pair of alignment rails or fences on top of the tooling plate (in an "L" to make two stops). Indicate those square and parallel to the machine's travel, and you will have an extremely repeatable setup for your PCB milling. You can then clamp your board by small toe clamps on the two open sides, use tabs you cut off later, or investigate vacuum workholding. When I was actively making my own PCBs I would etch the traces and then put the board into such a setup to drill the holes and vias. ------- Re: A2Z tooling plate Posted by: "Clive Foster" clive_fosterx~xxtalk21.com Date: Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:42 am ((PDT)) The AtoZ product is essentially similar to the solid aluminium breadboard from Thor Labs, the optical lab equipment supplier, which I successfully used on my BCA baby jig borer. Worked very well, probably higher quality. The black anodised finish being especially tough and the threads very clean. On of those things which are a lot harder to make well for yourself than it might seem at first sight. Fences, locating pins and other accessories to suit your needs can be a great help and timesaver. Also consider minor reworking of vices and other workholders so you know exactly where they sit when pushed up against a fence or locator. The BCA has a built in rotary table with radial slots. Less than convenient for clamping jobs down in many cases. (See http:// www.lathes.co.uk/bca/index.html if you want to know what it is.) Clive ------- Re: A2Z tooling plate Posted by: "Andreas Grau" agrau31000x~xxyahoo.fr Date: Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:53 am ((PDT)) > The AtoZ product is essentially similar to the solid aluminium > breadboard from Thor Labs Speaking of alternatives, I have ordered a work holding table for my birthday from: http://www.hightechsystemsllc.com They offer the table for different mills, and this is good because I have two. That way, I can share the cams between them. Lots of nice other gadgets, I wonder if anybody has experiences with them. Andreas ------- Re: A2Z tooling plate Posted by: "Amanda Walker" amandax~xxalfar.com Date: Fri Aug 17, 2012 5:39 am ((PDT)) In taigtoolsx~xxyahoogroups.com, joe M wrote: > A2Z is offering a 15% discount on the tooling plate. I could not see > its need, but being a newbie, I would not count my opinion to be > much. Does anyone have it? Is it a good thing to have around? I have one, and it's extremely useful. It makes workholding much simpler for many tasks, and it protects the bed of the mill. Amanda ------- Re: A2Z tooling plate Posted by: "Alex Wetmore" alexx~xxphred.org Date: Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:09 pm ((PDT)) I have one warning with the A2Z plate. The threaded through holes don't line up with the T-slots (they are a bit off) and are threaded all the way through. This makes it easy to use a too long bolt and chew up the top of a T-slot when the bolt makes it through the plate. I often make my own tooling plates for specific projects and use the cam-style material holders with those, but rarely if ever use my A2Z plate. I do like other A2Z products including the tool holders, hold down clamps, and very nice T-nuts. alex ------- Re: A2Z tooling plate Posted by: "jnwoofer" jnwooferx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:27 pm ((PDT)) Joe, I highly recommend looking at the alternative to the A2Z's plate before buying -- look at: http://www.hightechsystemsllc.com/pt_work_holding_system.html and http://www.hightechsystemsllc.com/taig.html Basically, you can make your own tooling/matrix plate, get a Taig/Sherline with limited numbers of predrilled holes (and drill/tap more as you need yourself), or go to a readymade A2Z or Hightech plate. I went Hightech because I use the cams to hold smaller components and I can use it for assemblies/setup off the mill, then install. Ultimately, it depends on what you want to hold/use it for. Hightech also makes an adaptor for a rotary table/4th axis that I will get the wife to buy for me for Christmas... Jim ------- Re: A2Z tooling plate Posted by: "joe M" joe9mailx~xxgmail.com Date: Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:22 pm ((PDT)) Jim, I like the Hightech plate but for the width. It is only 4" whereas the taig universal has 6" width. Other than that, the hightech ones seem definitely superior. Thanks for your suggestion, Joe ------- Re: A2Z tooling plate Posted by: "jnwoofer" jnwooferx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:49 pm ((PDT)) Joe, Cool, it's your call -- check what you are getting -- I only see the universal plate for the Chinese mills (5.7 inches wide) on A2Z site. Since the Taig Y movement is generally about 5.5 inches, you will need to carefully mount a bigger plate to not impact your Y movement. I suggest cutting a piece of cardboard or wood the same size as the plate you plan to get -- attaching it to the Taig and then run to the extreme Y ends to see what you can really mill on a wider plate (without having to move the plate once it is set up). Have fun! Jim ------- Re: A2Z tooling plate Posted by: "Jake Horky" jacob.horkyx~xxgmail.com Date: Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:50 pm ((PDT)) You could use any cam clamps on the universal plate. It looks like High Tech Systems sells them individually for a really good price. They say they're 10-32, so they should work fine. Alternatively, check out "mitee-bite" clamps. I think places like Enco sell them. http://www.miteebite.com/ Given that, the Hightech system does appear to be a great value, since it looks like it comes with some clamps. However, I wouldn't want to have to go back to a 4" deep table after having used the 6". Besides having more clamping surface, the 6" deep plate allows you to use all of the Y axis movement. ------- Re: A2Z tooling plate Posted by: "Jake Horky" jacob.horkyx~xxgmail.com Date: Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:55 pm ((PDT)) Jim has a good point about setting it up, however, all it takes is to move the Y axis to it's maximum negative position (basically as far as it can go before it hits the column), square it, tighten the mounts, and you're good to go. ------- NOTE TO FILE: This next conversation posed a problem as to which file to put it in. It deals with modifying a Taig vice to hold round stock better, workholding, and modifying cutters to work better with brass. Normally I place a conversation into just one most appropriate file, but this one is short enough to appear in: Taig Modifications General Workholding General and Turning Brass. ------- Taig vice [taigtools] Posted by: "Ali Ghazizadeh" alighazizadehx~xxaol.com Date: Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:54 pm ((PDT)) Hi, Has anyone used the Taig vice sucessfully on the vertical milling slide of the Taig lathe? I tried to use this vice yesterday and it failed to keep grip on a 20mm round brass stock. The milling cutter constantly pulled the work piece out even with 0.005" depth of cut. I traced the problem to the movable jaw as it rotated about the single hold down 10-32 shcs screw. Is there anything else that could be done with this vice to sort the problem out or shall I just forget about it? Regards, A.G ------- Re: Taig vice Posted by: "Shawn Woolley" shawnwoolleyx~xxmac.com Date: Sun Aug 19, 2012 5:18 pm ((PDT)) I'm not home right now I'm up at my cabin to escape phoenix heat right now but I use the taig vice on round stock all the time I made a small set of extension jaws with three sizes of v-cuts to hold 3/8, 1/2 and 3/4 round stock which is the typical stock I use for bead making. With deep v's the stock locks into place and there's no issue facing or drilling stock. ------- Re: Taig vice Posted by: "WAM" ajawam2x~xxcomcast.net Date: Sun Aug 19, 2012 8:01 pm ((PDT)) Brass grabs.... In the Machine Shop Trade Secrets book http://proshoppublishing.com/index.html he even mentions that. The author mentions to dull the cutting edge of the drill bit ... just had a machinist over at my shop showing me how to do it. ------- Re: Taig vice Posted by: "pe3hmp" pe3hmpx~xxhotmail.com Date: Sun Aug 19, 2012 9:05 pm ((PDT)) I am not using a taig vise http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALGqYgbkO90 This is a cheap Proxxon vise; what you see in my video is the milling of one of the brass fingers of the steady rest. Mark ------- NOTE TO FILE: Don't be concerned in this next thread about the references to CNC if you do only manual milling. The workholding tips will work with either milling method. ------- Milling small pieces [SherlineCNC] Posted by: "kerickson" kaericksonx~xxearthlink.net Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:07 pm ((PDT)) What's the best way to mill small brass pieces on a Sherline 2000 Mill? How do you hold the piece in place when it comes to the end of the milling process? Do you have some type of breakout tabs? If so how do you generate them? In the CAD or CAM process? I'm attempting to mill several small pieces, .100 x .750, 1/32" thick. I have to manually drill several small diameter holes and the MeshCAM doesn't insert drill code automatically (or so from what I've read from the user forum). How do you hold a small piece so that you can drill a hole manually after the piece has been milled? ------- Re: Milling small pieces Posted by: "Tom Wade" tomx~xxwade.name Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:59 pm ((PDT)) This is an ideal use for a custom pair of soft jaws. Go to your local metal supplier, if you can, and get a length of Al bar stock a bit wider than your jaws are high, and thicker than your jaws. Get lots, cause you'll make lots of custom jaws in the future. Cut a pair of jaws to the length of the originals, or longer. Drill and countersink or counterbore the jaws to fit the orginal screws on the vise. Install and square the vise. Close the jaws all the way, or perhaps put a shim between them. Now use a small end mill to cut a groove in both top surfaces. Remove shim (if used) and use the vise and the soft jaws to lay the brass in the new groove and machine away. I think that you can get an idea of what I'm talking about on the two pages below. I'm in the hospital at the moment, and have only limited internet access, so can't tell you exactly which pictures I'm talking about. On the rail joiner page I use two different sets of soft jaws, one for milling the edge of the parts, the other for holding them flat for drilling. I wrote the G code by hand, and the entire drilling process is only ONE line of code, using the canned drilling cycle. http://tomwade.me/tw/machinist/kf/ http://tomwade.me/tw/machinist/rj/ Buy several feet of bar stock, because you'll probably find uses for more custom soft jaws in the future. Tom Wade ------- Re: Milling small pieces Posted by: "Thayer Syme" thayerx~xxgryffinaero.com Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:03 pm ((PDT)) I flipped over the stock jaws in my Sherline vise and did exactly the same thing. Thayer ------- Re: Milling small pieces Posted by: "Douglas Vogt" dbvogtx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:40 am ((PDT)) In Mach3, tabs are done in the CAM stage but they could be done in CAD. In either case, you will be left with some piercing saw work and hand filing unless you reclamp and finish with another CNC milling stage. Full disclosure: I've never done 1/32 brass but with 1/16 thick for clock wheels, the blanks are cut from a clamped plate. The milling sequence is to mill the center hole first, the sections to form the spokes second and finally trepan the wheel out of the plate. Of course, the final cut separates the wheel from the plate. In your case, you would drill the holes first and cut the part out second from a clamped plate unless you've cut all the pieces out first. Then you'll have to use tabs. ------- NOTE TO FILE: The next thread is an offshoot of an earlier conversation in the group taigtools about small vises to be used on a taig mill. That conversation is in the file here "Taig Mill Tips" starting Jan 21, 2013 with subject "Milling vise suppliers" and may have some info of use on other mills. ------- [taigtools] Re: Milling vise question how can I hold down a palmgren 3" vise Posted by: "cary b" caryncbreeefx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:02 am ((PST)) In taigtoolsx~xxyahoogroups.com, "Don" wrote: > I have one of those vises. I bolted it to the mill table and did a clean up cut on the top slide and then flipped in onto some parallel bars and cleaned the bottom. One major issue though, that screw handle has to go. I was running a job and every now and then there would be a loud pop. Turns out vise handle was fouling on the Y stepper and the handle ended up being bent. The next job put the handle at an ever worse angle. Modify the handle, i.e. add a nut and lock nut so you can use a wrench on it, or make a removable socket handle that replaces the stock one. I wouldn't recommend it for the mill unless it is modified. Don < Hi all read this whole thing and wondering if anyone can help me. I just bought a beautiful 3" palmgren vise - and stupidly expected it had some sort of place to hold it down. I tried to put four hold down clamps against the smooth sides but that did not stop it from moving forward/ backward. Wondering if it was designed for use on a magnetic grinding table. Any suggestions? I got a decent deal on it but if I can't use it, it's just s $30 paperweight. ------- Re: Milling vise question how can I hold down a palmgren 3" vise Posted by: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" felicex~xxcasco.net Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:26 am ((PST)) There should be enough meat on the side rails to mill slots along the sides so that clamps can clamp down on it. Alternatively two countersunk screw holes through the bottom. ------- Re: Milling vise question how can I hold down a palmgren 3" vise Posted by: "Paul J. Ste. Marie" taigx~xxste-marie.org Date: Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:51 pm ((PST)) Unless this is one of the drill press vises with the ground sides. I have one of those -- you need to use step blocks and strap clamps to hold it in place. It's a bit big for the Taig, though. I turned some bushings so I could use standard 3/8" slot strap clamps with 10-32 studs and t-nuts for the Taig table. ------- Re: Milling vise question how can I hold down a palmgren 3" vise Posted by: "Paul J. Ste. Marie" taigx~xxste-marie.org Date: Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:35 am ((PST)) On 1/28/2013 12:09 AM, Steve Wan wrote: > Just being curious 'Palmgren Vise' is US made or China? > How's the workmanship? I've been happy with Palmgren's stuff. Bench grinder, arbor press, and a couple of drill press vises. The arbor press is from China; I assume the other stuff is, too. The MHC/Interstate (I'm guessing they're the same outfit) stuff Enco sells is generally ok, too. Lately Enco has been labeling the Interstate as such in their catalog. It used to just be "Import". ------- Expanding Mandrel. [myfordlathes] Posted by: "alan4227" a.j.moorex~xxbtinternet.com Date: Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:26 am ((PDT)) I needed a 22mm expanding mandrel to hold the bore of a model steam engine cylinder while I faced the ends and did various other jobs. I had visions of a long and complicated process to make the mandrel, including taper turning, but then I found the answer in Sparey's book. You turn a piece of bar down to be a snug sliding fit in the bore, then drill and tap the end for a suitable thread, but only using the taper tap. Saw down the length of the bar for 25-30mm to make it springy and that's it. As the Allen (socket) screw is screwed in it expands the bar and holds the work firmly. It worked beautifully for me. I can hear the experienced machinists among you saying "I've used that dodge dozens of times", but it was new to me. Regards, Alan ------- Re: Expanding Mandrel. Posted by: "Kevin" tadpolex~xxbtinternet.com Date: Sat Jun 22, 2013 7:20 am ((PDT)) Alan, thanks for the reminder. I say reminder .... I've got the book and would claim to have read it thoroughly, but not sure that I would have recalled this when necessary. Maybe it will lodge somewhere accessible in the brain-box now! Kevin, NW England, UK ------- Re: Expanding Mandrel. Posted by: "c j.s" callinicus1953x~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Sat Jun 22, 2013 1:59 pm ((PDT)) Or, you can make some soft blades for an adjustable reamer and use that as an expanding mandrel. CJ(UK) ------- Re: Expanding Mandrel. Posted by: "David Littlewood" davidx~xxdlittlewood.co.uk Date: Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:32 pm ((PDT)) Alan, Nice tip. OTOH, if your time is more limited than your pocket, see http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Expanding-Mandrels These can be replaced in the lathe spindle and retain concentricity. David Littlewood ------- Best way to clamp "large" stock [taigtools] Posted by: "Max Cato" maxsthekatx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:28 pm ((PDT)) Hi all, How do you like to clamp "large" stock to the Taig? For instance, say I wanted to work on a piece of low carbon steel that was 6" x 6" x 1" (with the 6x6 area being the main working surface). How would you go about clamping this to the machine? Should the edges be simply clamped down, and then only a portion of the surface is roughed and then milled on? I would assume that you would just saw off the excess area where the clamps were after you are finished? Thanks! Max ------- Re: Best way to clamp "large" stock Posted by: "Pierre Coueffin" pcoueffinx~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:37 pm ((PDT)) It probably depends on what you are making, and what directions you expect the cutting forces to be in. For example, if your part has a through hole, you can't really beat putting a T-nut under the part, and a bolt with a stout washer through that hole. Some parts need machining across the whole top surface, so some sort of low-profile clamp is in order. Other parts will call for you to use several finger clamps, and switch them out (leaving at least 3 holding the part at any time!) as you work. Some parts will clamp nicely in a vice, or a 4-jaw chuck that is bolted to the table, or a custom fixture made to repeatably locate several identical parts. ------- Re: Best way to clamp "large" stock Posted by: "Max Cato" maxsthekatx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:51 pm ((PDT)) Thanks for the insight! Right now, I'm looking to make small molds for hand operated (or small pneumatic) injection mold machines. So, I have very tight tolerances, and the surfaces must mate well. No holes at the moment, as I can just align by cutting keys on each of the faces, but that may be needed down the road if I get a fancy machine that can do automatic cycling (where it would need to push a pin through the plate to eject the part). I've heard of toe clamps; is that what you mean by a low profile clamp? Do you have any recommended suppliers for the finger clamps? Thanks again! :) Max ------- Re: Best way to clamp "large" stock Posted by: "Yi Yao" yix~xxyyao.ca Date: Sun Jul 14, 2013 8:29 pm ((PDT)) I agree with Pierre. There is nothing better than clamping down via some through holes. Sometimes, I need to mill the top. In this case, I drill a through hole and make a counterbore for a SHCS. The head of the SHCS is recessed and that allows me to machine the top of the work piece. I've also used 2 tool makers vises. I take the removable jaw off the first vise. Next, I install the removable jaw of the second vise backwards. I face the fixed jaw of the first vise to the removable jaw of the second vise. Effectively, you get an arbitrarily large tool maker's vise. Clamps are fine, but annoying to move around if you have to machine the entire top of your work piece. ------- Re: Best way to clamp "large" stock Posted by: "Rupert" rwenig2x~xxxplornet.com Date: Sun Jul 14, 2013 8:46 pm ((PDT)) Max, I've used low profile clamps for similar holding jobs. I made my own as they are fairly simple to make. This link might give you some ideas. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maHFRJ-kKgo Rupert ------- Re: Best way to clamp "large" stock Posted by: "Paul J. Ste. Marie" taigx~xxste-marie.org Date: Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:58 pm ((PDT)) I have some photos of making some clamps up here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/taigtools/photos/album/943126516/pi c/1603989476/view What I'll most commonly do is use multiple clamps and move them around, one at a time, to get them out of the way, for example: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/taigtools/photos/album/174950694/pi c/1075877675/view You can also use low profile clamps or toolamker's clamps, although the latter are rather tricky to set up. This is a photo of using the toolmaker's clamps: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/taigtools/photos/album/174950694/pi c/1355748616/view ------- Re: Best way to clamp "large" stock Posted by: "Paul J. Ste. Marie" taigx~xxste-marie.org Date: Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:45 am ((PDT)) On 7/14/2013 4:51 PM, Max Cato wrote: > I've heard of toe clamps; is that what you mean by a low profile > clamp? Do you have any recommended suppliers for the finger clamps? That's one sort. Mitee-bites are another: essentially a hex head with an eccentric screw to hold them down. On the Taig, you'll find that most commercial clamps are too big and that you'll have to make your own, although you can get Mitee-bites in 10-32 that will work on the Taig. If you head over to Online Metals and get some 1/2" square and some 1/4"x1" 1018 steel bar, you'll have the perfect raw material for making t-nuts and various sorts of clamps. Here's a link for the mitee-bites: http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INLMKD&PMPXNO=16719336&PMA KA=619-1580 You'll need a cleat of some sort to work with those. ------- Re: Best way to clamp "large" stock Posted by: "Jeffrey Birt" birt_jx~xxsoigeneris.com Date: Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:09 am ((PDT)) You could use a show clamp as already mentioned, or you could make a 'table vise' (see below), or cut a slot around the sides of the stock and use an'L' clamp. A 'table vise' can be handy. I made one using three lengths of 1"x1" aluminum stock about 4" long. All three pieces are drilled/counter-bored to accept some 10-32 socket head screws to hold them to the table aligned along the Y axis. One of the pieces is drilled tapped from the side to fit a large bolt. One of the pieces is bolted down on the left hand side of the table (fixed), the piece that is cross drilled is toward the right (fixed) and the third piece between them (moveable) like this: | * | | | * | |-x~xx | * | | '|' is the 1"x1" aluminum stock '*' is the part '-x~xx' is the screw When you tighten the screw the middle piece is pushed against the stock and claps it in place like a vise. This makes for a very handy, low profile clamp. Jeff Birt Soigeneris.com ------- Re: Best way to clamp "large" stock Posted by: "Will Schmit" anchornmx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:04 pm ((PDT)) Max, If it is a two piece mold, I would suggest using clamps (such as A2Z Tee slot clamps) to hold the piece down, onto a piece of sacrificial surface. Drill 2 or more precise holes in the corners of both pieces. Use the holes to hold down the part for milling, and use them for dowel pin alignment (to keep the mold parts accurate). ------- Work holding in a chuck [myfordlathes] Posted by: qthurtlex~xxgmail.com busybeingrelaxed Date: Sun Jan 5, 2014 11:42 pm ((PST)) As a beginner I have recently had three different problems holding work in a three-jaw chuck on my ML10. Unfortunately, I don't have (and can't afford) a proper collet-based work-holding system, which I think would answer the problems. 1) Protecting soft materials in a chuck. When turning down aluminium bar (eg 25mm diameter), I normally wrap a thin aluminium (beer can) strip around the bar a few times (with the same number of layers under each chuck jaw). Sometimes, I try paper in the hope that it will avoid slipping. The problem is that, if I dog-up the chuck very tightly, I might still mark the work, and it might still slip. I make an effort not to apply too much cutting force, but once I overstep the cutting force, the damage is done. What techniques do people use to minimise this problem? 2) Gripping mild steel tightly enough Recently, when holding a turned 20mm diameter MS bar in the chuck and using a die to put an M12 thread on a prepared end (11.8mm diameter with chamfered lead-in), I found that the work roatated in the chuck (marking the prepared finish) despite being gripped in the vice as tightly as I could. The problem was the large force needed to form the thread (die held in a tailstock holder, chuck rotated by hand using the chuck-key [yuk!], only small 'bites' taken before backing-off to break the chips). Any thoughts on gripping work as tightly as possible? 3) Holding a threaded rod in a chuck I use my 'wrapping aluminium strip' method (see above) for holding threaded rod (eg M10 or M8) in the chuck when I want to turn it down. Obviously, the steel tends to cut through the aluminium and damage to the thread can occur. I suspect that a better method would be to get some suitable copper tube as a sleeve and slide the threaded rod inside, before gripping it. Am I missing any other tricks for gripping threads? Many thanks in advance for any light you can shine on this topic. Best wishes Q ------- Re: Work holding in a chuck Posted by: ejandptrx~xxbtinternet.com philandjorobbo Date: Mon Jan 6, 2014 1:18 am ((PST)) Q, To protect work such as yours I have always used a strip of emery paper, ordinary medium grade, wrapped round the work, inside out –- back to the work. Align the join in the emery between the chuck jaws. Same goes for threaded rod. If you want to make sure of it, tap a bit of round bar to screw the threaded rod into and hold that in the chuck. You can use a locknut so it doesn’t get screwed in too tightly. I would find M12 a bit big to cut like this, but put a good taper on the end of the work so it starts easily and will then draw itself along. Plenty of thread-cutting lubricant and frequent stop and reverse to clear the chip. Really you need a mandrel driving handle to get more, smoother and controllable force. Using the chuck key is a bit jerky, and as you say yuk! And of course, make sure you have a good quality die, preferably HSS. You also mention “despite being gripped in the vice as tightly as I could” in which case some soft jaws for the vice. You can also get soft jaws for the chuck,but this is not an economy measure! Phil ------- Re: Work holding in a chuck Posted by: "NORMAN HEDGE" Norman.Hedgex~xxbtinternet.com Date: Mon Jan 6, 2014 2:33 am ((PST)) Hi. I too think M12 is a "big ask" with a die in the lathe. Why not try screw cutting the bulk of the thread and then just finish off with the die? Norman ------- Re: Work holding in a chuck Posted by: "Tony Jeffree" tonyx~xxjeffree.co.uk Date: Mon Jan 6, 2014 2:55 am ((PST)) Of course, one way to ensure that you don't have problems gripping bar stock is to start off with hex bar instead of round bar :) Regards, Tony ------- Re: Work holding in a chuck Posted by: "mark Dean" markdean61x~xxmsn.com Date: Mon Jan 6, 2014 3:00 am ((PST)) Hi Q, I would tackle all three problems in a similar way. Take a short length of bar, clean up the outside and then chuck the cleaned up part in the three jaw chuck. Then bore it to the size of collet you need, (or bore and tap it to size). Centre punch it next to jaw no. 1, to re-align after removal. Oops, not quite finished yet. Remove the bar, hacksaw through to the bore, between jaws. This should hold like a collet; for the threaded version, a bolt can be used as a stop, to save the part from turning. Hope this helps, all the best, Mark ------- Re: Work holding in a chuck Posted by: "Andrew Curl" methuselahx~xxntlworld.com Date: Mon Jan 6, 2014 3:36 am ((PST)) Although not initially cheap, investing in a coventry diehead (and some rocol RTD) will leave a smile on your face every single time you want to thread up to 9/16". Many of my dies came from Michael Watson. I can't remember where the head itself came from, suffice to say that I haven't seen another on a MT2 shank before or since! For holding studding, lock a couple of nuts together and grip by them. By all means use thin card to protect the work, but not emery cloth! Andrew ------- Re: Work holding in a chuck Posted by: peterroachx~xxbtinternet.com Date: Tue Jan 7, 2014 11:45 am ((PST)) As a prelude to any other changes of method, check that the chuck jaws are in good condition and concentric, Grind them at the size that you most commonly use. If the work is held concentric with the full length of all jaws holding the work piece, less likely to slip. 1/ Try using brass strip rather than aluminium. Being harder will not deform when the jaws are tightened to the same as soft Aluminium, but will still protect the work piece. 2/ Suggest you put 80% of the thread on with the lathe to screw cut and only use the die for the clean up/finish. On a lathe as small as a Myford would prefer to screw cut, rather than use die on M8 and upwards. 3/ I use a piece of hexagon bar with a tapped hole to mount the all thread or bolt. Use a nut to lock the work in position in the hexagon bar and you have a rigid non damaging holder. You could use a deviation of this last method, for the other two and either machine flats to a sacrificial extension to the job or dog as additional anti rotation. Alternatively cut the threads first, mount on the thread and the final cuts will remove any jaw slip damage. ------- Lathe Milling Attachment work holding [TAIGTOOLS] Posted by: "cArliTo" smashcarlitox~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:25 pm ((PDT)) Hi everyone, I finally got the milling attachment for my lathe. I would like to know what everyone does for workholding arrangements. I am trying to avoid buying the taig milling vise, unless I can find it used somewhere for cheap. What are my options? I like the idea of having some sort of normal vise or screwless vise for general work holding, and then would start making some clamps for clamping stuff right to the table. At this point I`m not really 'making' anything but will start making tooling as I get back into things. Any ideas, pics, or videos would be appreciated. I should add that I ordered a 1" toolmakers vise off of ebay, and considered getting a cheap corner clamping vise from harbor freight (or my box of junk) and milling it down to a small standard vise. Ultimately I think I need the right size toolmaker style vise to avoid issues with the clamp moving when cranked down. ------- Re: Lathe Milling Attachment work holding Posted by: "pe3hmp" pe3hmpx~xxhotmail.com Date: Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:32 pm ((PDT)) I use a Proxxon vise on the milling attachment, works great, you have to make a few extra holes in the vise to fit it to the milling attachement but since I live in the Nederlands taig parts all have to come overseas so Proxxon was the easiest way. ------- Re: Lathe Milling Attachment work holding Posted by: "cArliTo" smashcarlitox~xxgmail.com Date: Sat Mar 15, 2014 12:17 am ((PDT)) That looks like a pretty nice option, going to add both styles to my wishlist. ------- Re: Lathe Milling Attachment work holding Posted by: "Paul J. Ste. Marie" taigx~xxste-marie.org Date: Sat Mar 15, 2014 12:29 am ((PDT)) The Taig vise leaves a lot to be desired. On the mill, I generally use a 50mm screwless vise from Enco. It's a cheap Chinese import (Interstate) but aside from the screw the quality is fine. The screw is just a M5 or M6 SHCS so no big deal to replace when its threads stripped off. Everything else was true and hardened. The Taig vise flexes a lot and the jaws are not flat. Run an indicator over them while squaring the vise and you'll see a couple thous of variation. Its one advantage is that it's low enough that you probably won't need parallels. Whether the milling attachment is big enough to hold a 2" vise I can't say. ------- Re: Lathe Milling Attachment work holding Posted by: "Gerrit Visser" gerrit-mlx~xxpsgv.ca Date: Sat Mar 15, 2014 5:49 am ((PDT)) I just bought a 1" and 2" toolmakers vises from Shars (Discount Tools) on eBay. Very well made. But it will be a month before I get to try them out. Mounting the 2" on the lathe's milling attachment will take some imagination I think. If the base of the vise is not rock hard, drilling some holes to match the t slots will be plan A. Gerrit ------- Re: Lathe Milling Attachment work holding Posted by: "Will Schmit" anchornmx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:54 am ((PDT)) I know this response doesn't match the color of the request, but my reaction to the Taig milling attachment is pretty dismal. It has a terribly small work envelope, and no depth control. This is a big problem that doesn't need to happen. IMHO, the answer isn't a milling attachment for a Taig lathe, it is a lathe attachment for a Taig mill. ------- Re: Lathe Milling Attachment work holding Posted by: "pe3hmp" pe3hmpx~xxhotmail.com Date: Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:37 am ((PDT)) A depth meter (up and down) is very simple to make, I have done it on mine just with a ruler and arrow, but if I wanted it I could have made it with a digital caliper. The milling attachment is no replacement for the taig mill but for small things it works perfectly. Mark ------- Re: Lathe Milling Attachment work holding Posted by: "Gerrit Visser" gerrit-mlx~xxpsgv.ca Date: Sat Mar 15, 2014 6:56 pm ((PDT)) Except when what you have is a Taig lathe, then the milling attachment is what you use. I would love to have a Bridgeport but that wouldn't fly on our 11th floor condo either :-) The challenge/fun is to use what you can afford/have/will fit in your location. Gerrit ------- Re: Lathe Milling Attachment work holding Posted by: "cArliTo" smashcarlitox~xxgmail.com Date: Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:52 pm ((PDT)) That is right, my "normal" machines are in storage. My biggest problem right now is controlling metal chips in an apartment. I was able to accomplish a whole project using the blocks provided with the milling attachment, so I'm thinking the small screwless vise and a tiny palmgren style will seal the deal. ------- Re: Lathe Milling Attachment work holding Posted by: "Pat Goodyear" kf6pbnx~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Mar 16, 2014 1:29 pm ((PDT)) Well, if you have a small milling table for the attachment with "T" slots, use "T" nuts and toggles with a set screw. I have a Taig as well as a Unimat; I use the milling attachment on both, and use the Unimat mill table mounted with the "T" slots horizontal. I have a 1" mill vice, some toggle tabs that came with the faceplate, an attachment that allows me to use the 3 or 4 jaw chucks as a vice on the table, basically a bolt threaded to the chuck, with a "T" slot attachment point on the other end. The stroke is small but on the smaller parts it works fine. Pat ------- Re: Lathe Milling Attachment work holding Posted by: "Will Schmit" anchornmx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Mar 16, 2014 2:07 pm ((PDT)) I never understood why the conversation always shifts from Taig to Bridgeport. Virtually 100% of the parts I make with (mostly) Taig tools would be impossible on a Bridgeport. In my eye, Taig = versatile and delicate. Bridgeport = stability and power. I bought a Taig Vise #1225 from Jeff Birt. They are available everywhere, but Jeff has been very helpful in the past. I don't know if that vise will fit the milling attachment. I am nursing a bad knee, and am avoiding trips to the shop. That vise works like a champ in places that any other vise would pose too tall a profile. I use the #1225 with A2Z tee nuts mounted to the cross-slide. ------- Re: Lathe Milling Attachment work holding Posted by: "Donnie Garrett (WA9TGT)" cfzeppx~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Mar 16, 2014 3:48 pm ((PDT)) Gerrit: I'm sure you will find that the 2" toolmakers vise will see far more use than the 1". The 1" vise is really limited in range. I also have one of the 1" screw-less vises and I have only used it on a couple occasions over the past year or so. My 3" screw-less vise is used 99% of the time. Donnie ------- Re: Lathe Milling Attachment work holding Posted by: "cArliTo" smashcarlitox~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Mar 16, 2014 3:59 pm ((PDT)) I did order the chuck adapter for the taig t-slots, thinking that the 4 jaw chuck will end up being the best vise in my collection. You are right, I`m going to have to make some finger plates for the odd stuff. I am thinking of permanently mounting some long set-screws/grub screws into a few extra stock t-nuts & then using nuts to hold the finger plates. I was angered when I first mounted my milling attachment this weekend and the provided bolts gouged the underside of the cross slide t-slot. (I immediately sanded them down a bit to avoid this in the future) - really unhappy with that, so to avoid the guess work I`ll be using set screws + nuts or flange nuts on any custom configurations. ------- Re: Lathe Milling Attachment work holding Posted by: "Don Rogers" Donx~xxCampbell-Gemstones.com Date: Sun Mar 16, 2014 8:24 pm ((PDT)) A good investment is a set of A2Z T-nuts for the lathe. They give a longer screw depth, IE more threads. And they will not allow a screw to penetrate the bottom of the nut and bugger the bottom of the T slot. Along with the set screws and nuts if they will work for the task, a much better solution than the Taig square nuts. And as long as a socket head cap screw will tighten, it gives an even better solution. Don ------- Re: Lathe Milling Attachment work holding Posted by: "Paul J. Ste. Marie" taigx~xxste-marie.org pstemari Date: Mon Mar 17, 2014 11:17 pm ((PDT)) On 3/16/2014 3:59 PM, cArliTo wrote: > really unhappy with that, so to avoid the guess work i`ll > be using set screws + > nuts or flange nuts on any custom configurations. Taig owner's project #1: Making t-nuts with blind holes Taig owner's project #2: Making vise hold-downs Taig owner's project #3: More t-nuts Taig owner's project #4: Making clamps Taig owner's project #5: More t-nuts If the A2Z ones were oblong and not square I'd buy more of those, but I have to look at them to get them in the slots. I make mine about 3/4" long with square ends, and I can just pick them up and slide them in by feel without thinking about it. BTW, the oil finish all-thread from Enco is ok stock for studs. It doesn't seem to strip out like the zinc-plated stuff. I haven't been able to find a source for B7 all-thread in 10-32, and SHCS longer than 1" aren't threaded for the entire length. Using set screws is a good idea -- Mcmaster has them up to 2-1/2" length. I was able to get some black oxide alloy nuts (http://amzn.com/B00AQMW0VY) and fixture washers (http://amzn.com/B004K1FASW) ------- Re: Lathe Milling Attachment work holding Posted by: "Paul J. Ste. Marie" taigx~xxste-marie.org pstemari Date: Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:08 am ((PDT)) On 3/16/2014 8:24 PM, Don Rogers wrote: > And as long as a socket head cap screw will > tighten, it gives and even better solution. One useful trick is to put a hex nut on the SHCS first, then washer, clamp, and t-nut. You can then use it like a stud and tighten the nut without risking bottoming out the screw before it's completely tightened. ------- Re: Lathe Milling Attachment work holding Posted by: "cArliTo" smashcarlitox~xxgmail.com carlosakin Date: Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:48 am ((PDT)) I'd like to see some pics of various clamp ideas. I am NOT a member of the camp who doesn't want to waste 2 hours making a $2 clamp - these are great opportunities to either learn, or dust off forgotten skills. I was thinking of using these type of set-screw permanently screwed into a few t-nuts, then used with a nut over a clamp: http://amzn.com/B003R7JCRA I have a small handful of the standard square nuts and a few a2z t-nuts as well. My earlier complaint was about the bolt supplied with the milling attachment being too long (and me not checking it). ------- Re: Lathe Milling Attachment work holding Posted by: "pe3hmp" pe3hmpx~xxhotmail.com Date: Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:33 am ((PDT)) I do not like to waste time, so I just buy some of these bolts http://images.rvs-products.nl/slotbout_elvz_index.jpg grind the two sides down so it fits in the slot and use a nut like this one http://www.rcm-ankertec.nl/media/catalog/product/cache/1/im age/1000x1000/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/m/o/moeren_bekisting.jpg I know I am lazy but it works perfectly and costs next to nothing. Mark ------- Re: Lathe Milling Attachment work holding Posted by: "Gerrit Visser" gerrit-mlx~xxpsgv.ca Date: Tue Mar 18, 2014 5:51 am ((PDT)) One of my favourite sayings is: I'm so lazy that I'm practical :-) I used a similar technique for my Unimat, using 1/4" bolts and nuts Gerrit ------- Re: Lathe Milling Attachment work holding Posted by: "Gerrit Visser" gerrit-mlx~xxpsgv.ca Date: Tue Mar 18, 2014 5:57 am ((PDT)) I have designed a mounting system for my new 2" toolmakers vise. Basically 2 plates that mount to the cross slide side t-slots and then 2 holes on top for small finger clamps or washers to clamp the vise down. This mounts the vise perpendicular to the ways. The vertical cross slide is 2" and so is the vise. Repeatable mounting, and you can move the vise up and down. I will post some photos in May once it is built. A month to go before I am reunited with my lathe. gerrit ------- Re: Lathe Milling Attachment work holding Posted by: "Paul J. Ste. Marie" taigx~xxste-marie.org pstemari Date: Tue Mar 18, 2014 8:50 am ((PDT)) On 3/18/2014, cArliTo wrote: > I'd like to see some pics of various clamp ideas. Clamps: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/taigtools/photos/albums/943126516 Vise hold-downs: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/taigtools/photos/albums/495280139 T-Nuts & parallels/cleats: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/taigtools/photos/albums/1728941955 ------- Re: Lathe Milling Attachment work holding Posted by: "Don Rogers" Donx~xxCampbell-Gemstones.com campgems Date: Tue Mar 18, 2014 8:30 pm ((PDT)) Paul, your reply is dead on accurate. My first "project was to make some T nuts. I picked up some 1/2" square stock at the hardware store and about two inches into the first pass, things went bad. I found out about the Taig Column tilt issue. My next approrach to the T nuts issue was to again go to the local hardware store and buy four each of their different length 1/4" carriage bolts. I rigged up my vise so I could lay one in and clamp the square and machine off a flat on one side of the head. Flip it over and machine the same depth flat and Walla, I had a T bolt that would fit the Taig mill slots and I had a ready supply of nuts, washer, etc from the hardware store. I've since gone to the A2Z T nuts, made my own set of short and long thread studs, found out today I need more and at 1/2" lengths increments than vs 1" ones. I have a big lathe that I can use a die holder in the tail stock and thread rods all day long. Without that ability, I would buy the threaded studs. Another heads up, I was on a project today and using A2Z rocker nuts and washers to hold down some fixtures. The Nuts are 10-32 with 3/8" flats, but in the matching process, the part off tool, left a flange on the top of the flats that had to be filed off to allow a 3/8" open end wrench to fit it. Then a couple dumb ones on my part, I was setting up the stock and tried to use an hole edge finder for an edge finder and, when it kicked, it threw up the center which hit one of my fixture studs and was going nuts. I whacked the EPO and then the center locked in one of the four groves on the holding nut and snapped off the center. D*&M S#$T number one for the day. Dug out one of my real edge finders, set up my stock and proceeded to make one of my templates for replacing the hinges on my kitchen and bath cabinet doors. Well the piece turned out to look very good, but when I checked it to the test door I made. The holes didn't align. I had forgotten to offset the edge by 1/2 the edge finder's diameter. Everything was off by 0.050" GIRRRRR. Don ------- Re: Lathe Milling Attachment work holding Posted by: "pe3hmp" pe3hmpx~xxhotmail.com Date: Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:17 am ((PDT)) This is my setup with the proxxon vise http://i60.tinypic.com/2zqugyw.jpg Don't look at the saw in the 3 jaw, I was too lazy to remove the chuck. Mark ------- Re: Lathe Milling Attachment work holding Posted by: "Gerrit Visser" gerrit-mlx~xxpsgv.ca Date: Wed Mar 19, 2014 7:42 am ((PDT)) Hi. A view of the design. Missing are the 2 10-32 SHCS and clamps to hold the vise to the new side clamp. I tend to model until I know the design will work, then get on with things :-) I'll be building this in May. The vise I have is hardened so drilling holes to mount in the way the Proxxon vise was done is not possible. https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/TAIGTOOLS/photos/albums/47815 9113/lightbox/1481029614 If the link doesn't work, the photo is in Gerrit's Taig Lathe folder. Gerrit ------- Re: Milling Table [sherline] Posted by: "Tom & Judy Bank" trbank1x~xxverizon.net eimcr28 Date: Wed Mar 19, 2014 9:08 am ((PDT)) The other thing that could be a problem - beyond what Anthony wrote about - is using screws that are too long. If an over length screw into a tee- nut is "tightened" too much, it can go through the bottom of a tee-nut, bottom out on the base of the tee-slot, and force the tee-nut up against the flanges of the slot. The object being held will not be held tight, which will result in the uninitiated user thinking he/she needs to tighten things up even more. The end result will be that the flange on the tee- slot will be deformed or will break out. It's not just Sherliners that have this problem, I once saw a new apprentice fired for breaking a flange on a large mill table back in my early days. One way to avoid this happening is to upset the last thread on all your tee-nuts so screws can't go through them. Then when it bottoms out, you realize you need to go search your box for a shorter screw. I made a cute little device for this purpose. It is described in a file I put in this group's file section at Tee-Nuts from Trash Part 2.pdf, steps 13 and 14. The first part of the file is at Tee-Nuts from Trash Part 1.pdf. If you make one of these, be aware that Sherline's tee-nuts are pretty hard and require a fair swat to upset that last thread. Regards, Tom Bank ------- Re: Sherline vis (was Cutting Oil dispenser) [TAIGTOOLS] Posted by: "Paul J. Ste. Marie" taigx~xxste-marie.org pstemari Date: Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:42 am ((PDT)) On 3/20/2014 12:49 AM, luv2bsailinx~xxyahoo.com wrote: > Has anyone looked at this Sherline vise? http://www.sherline.com/3551inst.htm If it's steel it should be fine. Sherline's workmanship is impeccable. The angle clamps and t-nuts are pretty flimsy, though, and Sherline's t-slots are smaller then the ones on the Taig mill. I don't know what the milling attachment's t-slots are like, though. ------- Re: Sherline vis (was Cutting Oil dispenser) Posted by: "Stan Stocker" skstockerx~xxcomcast.net Date: Thu Mar 20, 2014 2:13 pm ((PDT)) Hi Folks, The Sherline screwless vise is aluminum, with steel jaw liners. Mine has worn enough that it tends to bind up when trying to change the nut from one set of recesses to the next. Some have taken off some of the depth of the recessed rails from the bottom to avoid having the adjustment issues. Something I'll try one of these days, just never think of it when I've got one of the larger mills running. It's a cute little vise, works well, but it certainly doesn't have the mass or stiffness of a nice ground all over steel or cast iron screwless vise. Appropriate for the scale of work most folks do on Sherline mills. Take care, Stan ------- Re: Sherline vis (was Cutting Oil dispenser) Posted by: "Larry Guthrie" yrralguthriex~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Mar 20, 2014 3:04 pm ((PDT)) Since the Sherline is aluminum you might want to order a steel 2" screwless vise. There are two types of adjustments. Most of the less expensive ones have a bar that has to be pulled out and then fitted back through the nut on the adjustment screw. Others like the Sherline have the barrel and it's possible to loosen the adjustment screw and slide the barrel into a different slot. Generally this type is somewhat more expensive. I do not think an aluminum vise is a good investment. Hard to tell when wear will start to degrade the accuracy. Also for the same stiffness aluminum has to be considerably more massive than steel. ljg ------- Re: Sherline vis (was Cutting Oil dispenser) Posted by: "Paul J. Ste. Marie" taigx~xxste-marie.org pstemari Date: Thu Mar 20, 2014 3:35 pm ((PDT)) The Interstate vises that Enco sells have the hoppy notches, and are pretty cheap. I've only seen the slide-out bars on more expensive vises. That said, there's a real art to manipulating the screw head to hop notches while the vise is bolted to the table. More expensive vises might be easier to get in the notches, but spending $400 on a new Suburban vise to test that theory out seems excessive. ------- Re: Sherline vis (was Cutting Oil dispenser) Posted by: "Gerrit Visser" gerrit-mlx~xxpsgv.ca Date: Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:29 pm ((PDT)) I bought my 1" and 2" steel/cast vises from Shars via eBay. (free shipping is always a plus). Both will get mounts for the Taig milling attachment cross slide in May. For the two I paid only slightly more than the Sherline aluminum one cost for qty 1. This thread: http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,3305.msg58157.ht ml#msg58157 has some excellent non-invasive ideas for resolving the 'fiddly loose thing' hassle with adjusting these vises once bolted down. Gerrit ------- Re: Sherline vis (was Cutting Oil dispenser) Posted by: jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net n2562001 Date: Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:51 pm ((PDT)) The Sherline vise has an aluminum body with steel jaws as has been mentioned. However it is far more durable than is required for the stock that will be clamped in a 2" vise of this design. The aluminum body makes it a superior general purpose vise for small machines such as Taig and Sherline when compared to all steel vises of the same size. While it can handle the larger stock within its envelope, the lighter body and fine adjustment allows for greater feel and controlled tension than is practical on steel versions. This is especially helpful but must be experienced to be understood when working with smaller parts where security and versatility are required for quality work. However, I will agree that if your work is limited to the upper limits of this type vise, the all steel versions are more desirable if of adequate quality to do the job. However having said all of that, I have yet to find a commercial vise I have been truly happy with for Taig/Sherline size Mills. On the other hand, I have been completely happy with Kurt Angle Lock vises that are used on my larger machines. As such, I have now built 1" and 2" scale models of these vises for my small machines that have performed flawlessly. While time consuming, it was well worth every last minute spent. Jerry Kieffer ------- Re: Sherline vis (was Cutting Oil dispenser) Posted by: jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net n2562001 Date: Thu Mar 20, 2014 8:13 pm ((PDT)) >>...However it is far more durable than is required for the stock that >> will be clamped in a 2" vise of this design... > (: I'll take exception to that :) That "feel" is flex. ljg Actually, I suspect you would find that very difficult to demonstrate. The weakest point in the Sherline vise aluminum body is 1.125" X 2.00" or just over two square inches. As I recall, it is machined from 6061-T6 at about 30,000- 35,000 PSI tensile strength. Given the physical overall size of the vise, the chances of getting any flex at this point without busting it in half would be about 0.0. There has been a substantial shift from cast iron and steel to aluminum in the machine tool industry for the highest quality machines even in critical areas. The reasons given are strength, stability and light weight for rapid movement of the highest priced CNC machines. This can be readily observed and discussed/demonstrated at any of the larger machine tool shows. Jerry Kieffer ------- Re: Sherline vis (was Cutting Oil dispenser) Posted by: "Alex Wetmore" alexx~xxphred.org alexphredorg Date: Thu Mar 20, 2014 8:14 pm ((PDT)) A downside of the Shars and other Chinese screwless vises is that there are no removable jaws and there are no threaded inserts on the jaws to add your own removable inserts. ? On any mill, especially a CNC one, it is very handy to be able to make one-off fixtures using removable jaws. It is also nice to have a generic set with built in parallels. Since the vises are hardened it is very difficult to thread them and add removable jaws. I'm jealous of the homemade mini Kurt-clone. Those are the vises that I use on every other milling machine and they work very well. I've more or less given up on getting a great vise for the Taig and just make do with the screwless ones, homemade fixture plates, A2Z finger clamps, and other methods of work holding. alex ------- Taig milling vise [sherline] Posted by: urmacher1x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Jun 14, 2014 5:28 pm ((PDT)) Has anyone tried a Taig milling vise on the sherline mill? Their vise looks like it would give you a little more room between vise and spindle than the Sherline vise. Chuck ------- Re: Taig milling vise Posted by: "JERRY G" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net glicker31 Date: Sat Jun 14, 2014 5:43 pm ((PDT)) Yes, I have. That is exactly what it does. Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Re: Taig milling vise Posted by: "Jeffrey Birt" birt_jx~xxsoigeneris.com Date: Sun Jun 15, 2014 7:15 am ((PDT)) I find myself using the Taig vise more often because it is lower profile. Some folks don’t like it because the moving jaw has a tendency to lift up while you tighten it. I put a allen key in the screw on top of the jaw and tighten it as am tightening the vise screw. That keeps the jaw from lifting and is not hard to do. I’ve produced a lot of high precision parts using the Taig vise so with a few minutes spent learning to use it I’m sure you can as well. Jeff Birt Soigeneris.com ------- Re: 7" South Bend [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "bill baedke" bbaedke2x~xxyahoo.com bbaedke2 Date: Sun Dec 14, 2014 5:21 am ((PST)) You could cut a piece off a penny and use it for soft, like copper, material. I use them under clamps on a mill if I don't want to mar the job. Eventually they flatten out but cheap enough. Or cut a little piece off a copper tube or water pipe. ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following conversation was talking about a steady rest for an Atlas lathe, but some of the general points about types of contact (solid fingers or rollers) are applicable to steady rests for other lathes. ------- Re: Looking for a steady rest [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: brogers9941x~xxsbcglobal.net rogers92026 Date: Mon Feb 2, 2015 6:41 pm ((PST)) Chris, I too have an Atlas 12 x 36 and needed a steady rest for a project. I looked at the original Atlas and also at one of the Harbor Fright. I thought that the HF steady was of a superior design and had some better features. I called up the HF tech support people and ordered it by part number for one of their lathes. It is an accessory. I recall that I only paid around $40 or so including shipping. It took 6 weeks to get to me and took about 1/2 hour to slightly modify the base. It fits like a glove and works like a dream. If you have your heart set in a big project, including learning how to make casting patterns, figuring out drafts, etc. then you won't want to choose this really easy approach. But you'll end up with only an Atlas clone that isn't as sophisticated as the HF model. Of course, the HF model doesn't have the same mystique. Check out my picture that I posted a year or two ago. I think that it might be called My 12 x 36 HF Steady. Atlas_Craftsman Metal Working Machines https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/atlas_craftsman/photos/al bums/1824347569 ------- Re: Looking for a steady rest Posted by: "Chris Anderson" zertwizx~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Feb 2, 2015 7:45 pm ((PST)) I already make patterns And want one that looks the original one. ------- Re: Looking for a steady rest Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Mon Feb 2, 2015 10:09 pm ((PST)) That certainly looks easier than making and machining castings. And I'm sure that it works fairly well for short periods so long as you are running fairly hard material. But I see not techincal advantages over the late Atlas version. Unless they are hidden inside the outer ends of the knurled nuts, I don't see any way to lock the finger adjusters in place. I would expect the bottom two fingers to vibrate loose during the course of a long job like the two day one that I ran with mine year before last. Plus retrofited with readily available roller fingers, the Atlas is even better and usable on even softer materials. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: Looking for a steady rest Posted by: kbx~xxmuziker.org kbjorling Date: Mon Feb 2, 2015 11:00 pm ((PST)) The steady rest referred to in previous posts in connection with Harbor Freight - formerly for $50 - appears to be the same as this, currently available from Tolls4Cheap.com, but the price is now $150: http://www.tools4cheap.net/proddetail.php?prod=atlas12 I agree with Robt. D. that the lack of rollers on the fingers is a big drawback. Roller fingers are readily available as replacements for the bronze or brass fingers that come on the stock Atlas steady and they are a BIG improvement. ------- Re: Looking for a steady rest Posted by: jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net jtiers Date: Tue Feb 3, 2015 5:20 am ((PST)) Roller fingers have some advantages, but have their own troubles. The rollers will tend to embed particles in the work, "charging" it like a lap, especially if the work is softer. If a larger piece of swarf lands on the work, it may jam a roller, and produce a huge gouge in the workpiece as it skids on the work crammed against it by the wedging action of the jammed roller. Regular fingers will not do that, since they tend to scrape off any junk that lands on the work. If oiled, they don't score the work, and it may be possible to leave that area larger, finishing it after the work with the steady is done (not always possible). Maybe best to have both types of jaw available. The regular Atlas steady I have seen seems to be the usual version with screws to push the solid fingers, and screws to clamp them. That style is not particularly nice, and the "micrometer screw" type can be somewhat better as far as finely adjusting position. If you tighten the clamp screws of the standard type, the "push screws" seem to often back out, letting the fingers potentially slide out of the adjusted position due to vibration and the force of cutting, since they then are only held by friction. The clamp screws can end up shifting the finger position, jamming the work or increasing roller pressure. If the "micrometer screw" type has reasonable drag on the screws it will not back out. Same can be said of the push screws, so long as you put some Vibratite or similar compound on them to provide extra friction. Jerry ------- Re: Looking for a steady rest Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Tue Feb 3, 2015 9:17 am ((PST)) maybe that is why the push screws are provided w/ lock nuts !! FWIW practically, years ago I chambered many rifle barrels using the atlas stdy w/ out unwanted finger movement. re fingers... have tried wood, brass & roller......all removed blued finish; rollers may be worst since they burnished which required more repolishing than the others.....solution was aluminum split clamps on the barrel, riding in the stdy or solid bushes driven on over paper... best wishes doc ------- Re: Looking for a steady rest Posted by: jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net jtiers Date: Tue Feb 3, 2015 5:04 pm ((PST)) When you tighten the lock nuts, friction tends to tighten the screw against the finger as the lock nut is turned. The pull of the nut tends to loosen the screw vs the finger. The end position is somewhere in between. You need to hold it with a wrench and tighten the locknut. Or use a good micrometer type unit, or simply depend on the main fingers to stay in place, as-set, which is what most will do. It's all a compromise. Vibratite works well. Jerry ------- Re: Looking for a steady rest Posted by: "Kevin Gibson" k3030aix~xxyahoo.com k3030ai Date: Tue Feb 3, 2015 9:33 am ((PST)) FWIW, I'm probably the least experienced person in this group; or at least I always feel that way, these guys are sharp. Here's my experience. I have one of each. I have the original Atlas with just solid brass fingers, and I have a very well made (quite over- engineered) home made steady rest with bearing fingers. I have found the original Atlas is the one I'm constantly using. It's easier to set in place (the home made one weigh's a good 150% more), it's quick and easy to center, and the fixed fingers do in fact work better for me. But understand, I run my lathe almost exclusively at very slow speeds. Set the fingers, apply some oil and off you go. Keep it oiled while cutting and I've yet to have even a brass line on my work (mostly aluminum, but some steel) when I'm done. So if I personally could live without the bearing fingers altogether. But of course, it's always nice to have the option of either/or. Kevin ------- ------------------------------------------------------------------ This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------