This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------ This file has user tips on designing and outfitting a home workshop, whether for metalworking or woodworking or other hobbies. The metalworker's workshop will often have wooden (or at least part wood) benches and shelves and storage bins, etc. See the Adhesives text file for many wood, and metal, bonding problems and solutions. It is very likely that metalworkers also do some, if not a lot of, woodworking. Many workshop accessories are applicable to both. If you got to this file directly from my HOME PAGE, return there by using your browser's back button. BUT if you came to this file as the result of a web search engine, see many additional files on my home page Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html SAFETY WARNING BEWARE: DO NOT ASSUME that any subject matter or procedure or process is safe or correct or appropriate just because it was mentioned in a news/user group or was included in these files or on this site or on any other web site or was published in a magazine or book or video. Working with metals and machinery and chemicals and electrical equipment is inherently dangerous. Wear safety devices and clothing as appropriate. Remove watches, rings, and jewellery -- and secure or remove loose clothing -- before operating any machine. Read, understand and follow the latest operating procedures and safety instructions provided by the manufacturer of your machine or tool or product. If you do not have those most recent official instructions, acquire a copy through the manufacturer before operating or using their product. Where the company no longer exists, use the appropriate news or user group to locate an official copy. Be careful -- original instructions may not meet current safety standards. Updated safety information and operating instructions may also be available through a local club, a local professional in the trade, a local business, or an appropriate government agency. In every case, use your common sense before beginning or taking the next step; and do not proceed if you have any questions or doubts about any procedure, or the safety of any procedure. Follow all laws and codes, and employ certified or licenced professionals as required by those laws or codes. Hazardous tasks beyond your competence or expertise should also be contracted to professionals. Let's be really careful out there. (c) Copyright 2003 - 2016 Machining and Metalworking at Home The form of the collected work in this text file (including editing, additions, and notes) is copyrighted and this file is not to be reproduced by any means, including electronic, without written permission except for strictly personal use. ========================================================================== Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 15:00:07 -0000 From: steambikex~xxhotmail.com Subject: work light for mill I am working on a work light for the mill. I have a small gooseneck light that sets on my bench, but is always in the way or shining in my eyes or not where it shines on my work. I picked up a small Mini Mag flashlight at a garage sale. I bought a universal electric adapter at Wally World ( $10) that plugs into 110 outlet and changes to a variety of DC voltage. I am going to cut the flash light off so there is just enough to grip with a ball joint arm and wire to the adapter. I am going to attach the ball arm to the mill head T slot. The Mag lights have an adjustable beam that changes from spot to flood. I hope this will work as good as I am anticipating. Maybe this will spark a few ideas. I'll let you all know how it works. Paul B. -------- Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 21:42:02 -0500 From: "Randy" Subject: Re: Re: broken ways [actually Bed Top Construction] From: "S or J" To: Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2001 7:04 PM Subject: [atlas_craftsman] Re: broken ways [actually Bed Top Construction] > Randy has come up with a excellent plan for a bench top that should > provide a stable and vibration absorbing solution. His idea can be > improved a tiny bit by following an old lamination principle. > Any built up flat surface through laminations or made > from materials that breathe will have maximum stability > if the top and bottom surfaces are treated identically. > In this case, a tin layer on the top surface (which is there > to stop stray oil) will also make the top surface humidity > proof and should be matched by tin or a similarly effective > vapour-proof coating on the bottom surface. > Steve in Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada > > From: "Randy Pedersen" > >The tops will be made from old yellow pine 2x4's that have been take > >from old torn down houses (they are harder than all get out and have > >had over 40 years to cure and twist)laid side by side, they will be > >trimmed down to 2 1/2" then pre drilled along their length then they > >will be glued together and then bolted together with 1/2" all thread > >running completly through them. Then the top will be covered with tin > >to stop any oil from soaking into the wood. Using this old wood > >should help if not stop the problem of changing with the humidity > >quite as bad thereby keeping you lathe level longer (you should level > >your lathe a few times a year if you want to keep it straight and > >cutting true)and by laminating and making it 2 1/2" thick, stop the > >strange vibrations that can transmit to your work. Steve: thanks for the tip I never thought of covering the bottom side. I was going to make the legs from 4x4's like the atlas bulletin said but I think I will use some thick wall angle. This way I won't have to worry about the weather affecting my main leveling point, the bench! Randy ------- Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 17:00:58 -0400 From: "S or J" Subject: Re: mini vise (and Bill's Workshop) Bill wrote: >I built a small vise a couple of years ago out of some ugly scrapyard >finds. Here is a link to the picture of it: >http://www.geocities.com/wjw2000athotmaildotcom/vise_disassem.jpg Bill. Visited your picture of the vise. Fine work. Then chopped off the end of the address to get to your home page at http://www.geocities.com/wjw2000athotmaildotcom/ You have a wonderful site and sense of humour. Besides all the great stuff you have made and or improved, it is good to know that others don't have much in the way of horizontal surfaces that aren't piled high with good stuff, more good stuff, and plain old junk. I've stopped adding more workbenches because they just become more instant storage shelves. One old fellow came up with an idea in his workshop that is worth sharing with fellow procrastinators. There is no way that most of us will ever clean up and put all the tools away at the end of a session. Rather than feel guilty about it, turn that procrastination into your standard procedure. Then start each new session by putting everything away you will not need today, and clean up last day's swarf. During this period of no-brainer cleaning, run over the procedures in your mind that you are going to do today. Chances are good that this period of cleaning and meditation will catch some errors in advance and make for a more organized, productive session than just going into the shop and diving right in. Thanks for inviting us into your shop. Steve ------- Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 08:17:38 -0000 From: J.C.Beechx~xxshu.ac.uk Subject: Re: mini vise (and Bill's Workshop) Very good advice, I will give it a go as there is never enough time to clean up at the end of a session and my tea is usually very near the dog by the time I get to the table... Joules ------- Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 00:23:33 -0000 From: wjw2000x~xxhotmail.com Subject: Re: mini vise (and Bill's Workshop) --- In taigtools, "S or J" wrote: >...it is good to know that others don't have much in the way of horizontal > surfaces that aren't piled high with good stuff, more good stuff, > and plain old junk. I've stopped adding more workbenches because they just > become more instant storage shelves. Steve I had the opportunity to work for a few months in England. While there, I sought out a couple of "model engineers" that were busily making steam locomotives during their lunch break. I was able to see a couple of their shops. Very interesting. Here in North America, we tend to buy large machines and if a special job come along, we just buy another machine. I was suprised to see how productive these folks are with such limited equipment. This one fellow had a 10'x12' shed behind his garage that was just crammed with stuff. he had at least two large work benches (he may have had more, but I could only see two). He had a small milling machine, a drill press, and a medium size South Bend Lathe (WWII army surplus, I was told). Well, as you could imagine, every horizontal surface was covered with projects, tools, toys, whatever. He had an ingenious solution: He attached short sections of 2x2" to a couple 12"x12" pieces of plywood. These he would put in his bench vise, gripping the 2x2. He had two benches, as I said before, two vices, and therefore, had at least two square feet of horizontal work space! ------- Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 18:04:31 -0700 From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Subject: Re: Re: mini vise (and Bill's Workshop) I use the vise solution another way. Bench shears, punches, formers, etc, that can be lifted by one man (me) are fastened to lengths of aluminum extrusion (I could have used 2x6, but I have lots of short sections of this extrusion lying around). When I need to use the tool I just put it in one of my two main bench vises. Make sure the vise is solidly bolted to the bench! I find that having a small shop (mine is 13x17, with additional space in the carport for things that can rust a little) isn't too much of a problem, as long as you do keep things shipshape. I imagine that my shop is in a submarine and that I have to keep things in order. Lots of drawer units, shelves, etc, everything in it's own place, and the shop cleaned up daily. Boxes must be labelled with a marker, so you can see what they have without looking into them. That said I just bought 2 horizontal mills and a surface grinder yesterday at auction and I need more space! Anyone want to buy a Nichols Horizontal mill? See our web pages http://www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 18:15:11 +0000 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: chip and coolant cleanup tips for basement shop got_milk_ehx~xxyahoo.com wrote: > Does anyone have some great tips or ideas on how to keep a > basement shop clean and tidy with chips and coolant flying around? > Any ideas or advice would be appreciated! I use a Plexiglas shield that catches most of the flying stuff, and also some scrap pieces of Plexi that can be stuffed in the table slots to fit around odd-shaped workpieces to contain the swarf. I shovel the wet chips into a funnel lined with a paper towel to drain off the coolant. This sits in a small plastic container that holds the funnel upright and collects the coolant. I have a couple of pieces of aluminum sheet cut to fit the t-slots that works well to scoop up the chips. For general area cleaning, a big shop-vac and ear protectors are just the thing. I can get the shop pretty clean in a hurry with that. It is also very good for getting chips out of all the little nooks and crannies that they settle into. Jon ------- Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 17:43:40 -0400 From: Richard Parker Subject: Re: chip and coolant cleanup tips for basement shop > Does anyone have some great tips or ideas on how to keep a > basement shop clean and tidy with chips and coolant flying around? > Any ideas or advice would be appreciated! When my shop was located in a basement, I used pretty much the same methods that I always did. For the machinery, I use a 2" wide paintbrush to sweep the chips onto the floor. Then, use a good corn broom to sweep the chips into a dustpan, and put them in the trash. I follow this by using kerosene on the paintbrush to clean the cutting oil and smaller chips off of the machinery, and then wipe the machines down with rags. Finally, leave a light coat of Vactra (or suitable way oil) on the ways and exposed bright metal. Though it's probably common knowledge, you should NEVER clean your lathe or surface grinder with an air hose. On the mill, shaper, or drill press you can get away with this, as abrasives are rarely used on these. Also, I find the paintbrush and broom a lot easier to work with than a cumbersome shop vac and its associated hoses and electrical cord. Once you get into the habit of cleaning your shop meticulously after each use, you'll develop a "rhythm" for doing it that will become very easy to repeat. If you make it a habit to stop work about an hour before you're too tired to do any more and give the shop a good thorough cleaning, it will stay neat. It will also be a joy to enter the next time you have work to do, and your improved attitude will be reflected in the quality of your work. Have a place for everything, and put everything in it's place. Keeping everything clean, properly maintained, and organized will make you a better mechanic. Best, Rich ------- Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 09:29:50 -0500 (CDT) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Shop Layout First the question, then the song 'n dance: Anyone mind describing the layout of their shop? I'm looking for ideas. Now the song 'n dance: Once upon a time, there was a wood pile that rested against one wall of my shop. (Yeah, I know... I know...) Of course it wound up rotting out one wall of my shop. I've since moved the wood pile, and Saturday I removed the wall and replaced it with new, unrotted wood. It's sealed, and seems to be working out great. Right now my shop is an absolute disaster. Everything's piled up (CAREFULLY) against one wall, and the other half the shop looks like a construction site. I've got a couple of more plans I want to execute before things go back to "normal": * I'm re-wiring so I can get 220V power into the shed. Already got all the supplies (I've had them for more than a year). Just a matter of doing it. This will be a one evening job, probably this week. * I'm insulating and putting up 1/4" plywood coverings on my 2x4 frame walls (I'm in a shed). I've got an old window AC unit that's no longer in use, so it's going to give me climate control (YAY)! * In the process I'm having to empty my shed (mostly for insulating and painting), so only those things I want in my shop get back into my shop. While I'm doing all this, I'd like to address some shortcomings in my current shop setup: * It's hard to clean * Chips get into EVERYTHING * There's not much room / my benches are too big for the tools sitting on them * My tables aren't that rigid, so sawing on my vise is a little frustrating (I never did get around to bolting them to the walls, something I swear I'll take care of this time!) (Ain't 20/20 hindsight wonderful?) * The lighting isn't great * All the tables have been situated for standing-height. After trying a 27" tall lathe table, I find I *really* like sitting down when I'm working. Just gotta get an apron. * My shop's disorganized!! No work flow! I've got some ideas for how to address all of these, but before getting out the screw gun and lumber, I wouldn't mind a little input. One other thing I'm looking for in Le Shop Nuveau: I *AM DETERMINED* to get off my zud and write that manual on how to assemble and tram up the mill. This and other projects I'd like to do have convinced me that I need to set up a "studio corner". Ideally it would be a bench where I could put a given tool or machine, with a completely uncluttered background, easily controlled light sources, and enough room in front of it to set up a tripod. It doesn't need to be a permanent fixture, but it shouldn't be that arduous to set up, either. Any ideas? I'm still in the sketching phase, so I figure this is the time to ask. Thanks, Tom ------- Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 15:57:46 +0100 From: Tony Jeffree Subject: Re: Shop Layout At 09:29 22/10/2001 -0500, you wrote: > All the tables have been situated for standing-height. After trying a > 27" tall lathe table, I find I *really* like sitting down when I'm > working. Just gotta get an apron. Hmmm. After I failed t tighten up a chuck & had it spin off in my direction, I have decided that I *really* like standing up when I'm working. That way, its *so* much easier to get outa the way of the large piece of spinning metal that is heading for you with a malicious look in its eyes. Regards, Tony ------- Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:16:31 -0500 (CDT) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: Shop Layout OUCH! Dang it, Tony, now you have me totally re-thinking my whole approach;) I do have another reason for wanting sit-down benches. I'm in one of those barn-like shed buildings. That geometry means there's only four feet worth of vertical wall space on two of the walls. If you have a 36" bench up against one of these walls, you have very little vertical wall space left before you get first section of roof slanting in on you. This means keeping toolboxes on benchtops is tough at best. And something like a drill press winds up sticking out about three feet from the wall to leave enough space to lift the cover and change the drive belt. Drawer cabinets like you keep nuts and bolts in just don't work on those two walls. Dropping everything to 27" high means there's over 20" of space of vertical wall above each bench. This lets me fit my toolbox, and any of my tools, on top of any bench. But the concern about having a chuck spinning off at your chest while you're sitting in a chair really is a concern. I'm all for comfort while I'm in my shop, but being comfortable and dead (or really seriously injured) doesn't count for much in my book... Tom ------- Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 11:56:05 -0700 From: "David Goodfellow" Subject: Re: Shop Layout Pardon the interruption, but you struck a nerve. During my first few days with a Taig lathe I shut down with the 4-jaw spinning at top speed. The chuck spun off, grabbed me at the belt, crawled up my stomache and chest and gave me a good crack in the chin. If I had been sitting down at the time, the chuck would have first hit me in the face, with little of its energy expended. As it was, it lost a lot crawling up my bod. Still have a small scar on my chin, though. Dave Goodfellow Northridge, CA ------- Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 12:08:41 -0700 From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Subject: Re: Shop Layout Benches should be 32-36" high, and between 18" and 24" deep. Plan on storage under the benches. Look at used office furniture for cardfiles and telephone tables with ball bearing drawers. Lag screw 2x6 to the wall for bench support. Make risers above benches for toolboxes. I am now officially out of space in my shop. I have a center island of a table with the Atlas 10", the shaper against that, and now a new table that will hold my new benchmaster mill. Benches all around the periphery except for the drill press and the rollaway. I should take some new pictures. See our web pages http://www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:01:29 -0700 From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Subject: Re: Shop Layout Here's an "outside the box" thought. Could you build a low foundation wall that would raise your shed up a few feet? That would give you more space pretty cheap. I know what you mean about budget, I basically need a $20,000 shop right now, and I really only have about 11 cents saved up. ------- Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 15:14:27 -0500 (CDT) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: Shop Layout On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein wrote: > Here's an "outside the box" thought. Could you build a low foundation > wall that would raise your shed up a few feet? That would give you > more space pretty cheap. Now that I've seen how it's constructed, not really. Not without needing to completely replace the floor. A month ago I would've been gung-ho to do just that. But now that I've seen what the previous owner did under there, I kinda want to keep it. When I picked up that Lewis shaper a while back, I thought I'd need a concrete floor in my shop to support it. Turns out the floor is 3/4" plywood sitting on top of pressure treated 2x4's spaced every 8" or so, which are sitting on top of 4x6 beams, which are sitting on top of these things that look like railroad ties, which are sitting on top of the rock piers that support the thing (it's on the side of a pretty steep hill, say 25-30% grade.) The floor is massive. I checked the placement of my shaper table where I want it to go, and with the addition of a slightly wider foot on the legs, it'll be right on top of the floor beams. To replace that with concrete, on that hillside, would be a mess. > I know what you mean about budget, I basically need a $20,000 shop > right now, and I really only have about 11 cents saved up. DANG! And I thought *I* was the only one! Speaking of a $20,000 shop, I had lunch with my old mentor today. They replaced two of the mills in their shop with big Lagun mills. With the power draw bars, the things are almost ten feet tall. Each one ran about $20,000. Absolutely nuts. Irony of ironies, he was working on this tiny, intricate part, maybe 1/2"x3" at most. It would've looked small on my Taig. On his big Lagun the thing almost disappeared entirely! But yeah, I could deal with a $20,000 shop... Oooh, how I could spend $20k. Tom ------- Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 15:40:55 -0500 (CDT) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: Shop Layout >>If I had been sitting down at the time, >>the chuck would have first hit me in the face, with little of its energy >>expended. As it was, it lost a lot crawling up my bod. Still have a >>small scar on my chin, though. Ugh. Very nasty! Man, you said it! > Actually, this is one of the (many) advantages of variable speed > drives - I tend to slow the lathe down by using the speed control > rather than switching off, so there is less of a shock transmitted > through the belt & therefore less tendency for the chuck to unwind. > But even so, its important to maintain the ability to rapidly leave > the scene & let the dust settle if things start to get bad. This is > also a good reason to keep spectators at a distance - not for their > safety, but for yours! Back when my shop was in one piece, I had the tools arranged so that people working at different tools were out of each tool's line of fire. The lathe was positioned so someone standing at the mill isn't in line with the chuck, etc. I don't have enough room in my shop to come up with a good solution for the bench grinder, in terms of safety OR abrasive dust, so whenever it's in use, the thing is positioned outside the door, and all work pretty much stops 'till it's turned off. I also position it so an exploding wheel doesn't blow back into the shop. Totally off subject, at one point I was having a discussion with a skydiving friend of mine, about the relative dangers of skydiving and machining. She insists skydiving is more dangerous (I agree), but it does make you wonder... Ever think ESPN2 will dedicate an hour to competitive machining? "Look at that! He's regrinding his lathe tool in the middle of the production run!" "That's right, Bob! Oh! Oh no! Looks like he was grinding on the side of the wheel, and caused it to fracture!" "You said it, Jim! That's bound to leave a mark." "And that'll put him dead last in the rankings!" "That's right, Jim. He's out of the running on this one." (Understand... I'm saying this with tongue firmly planted in cheek. I hope no one EVER rushes in the shop. That's a great way to get majorly maimed or killed. But having watched some of the events in the X-Games on ESPN2, you have to wonder...) Tom ------- Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 06:16:53 -0700 From: James Eckman Subject: Re: Re: Shop Layout Use a tall backless stool so that you can keep the benches at the 32-36 height for standing and handwork as well. Easy to move fast also! Jim Eckm ------- Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 11:29:35 -0400 From: Ken Jenkins Subject: Re: Shop layout Hi Tom, regarding your new shop layout ... it's hard to give much advice given that shops are as unique as the characters that inhabit them :-) But I'll float a few ideas based on my experience (I just reworked my "corner-of-the-garage-shop" last year). Take a little more time and do what you want to do NOW!!!! Why? Because you know, and I know, that once all the stuff gets back in there and once things get going again, it's going to stay the same pretty much for the NEXT ten years? Right? :-) I had to really beat myself up to do this because having the shop down during reorg meant I wasn't able to work on projects that I wanted to ... now ... I'm glad I did. > * I'm re-wiring so I can get 220V power into the shed. Already got all > the supplies (I've had them for more than a year). Just a matter of > doing it. This will be a one evening job, probably this week. The 220 wiring is a good example of the above ... do it ... do it now and later when you get that great deal on a used 18" disc sander but it's 220 you'll be glad you did. > * I'm insulating and putting up 1/4" plywood coverings on my 2x4 frame > walls (I'm in a shed). I've got an old window AC unit that's no longer > in use, so it's going to give me climate control (YAY)! Re: heating and air-conditioning in a shed. First I'd advise against the 1/4" plywood. Go with at least 1/2", 3/4" would be better. My walls are 3/4" plywood and it lets me mount anything anywhere without worrying about stud locations, etc. This gives me more flexibility and better space util. Also be careful to consult someone who knows about the affects of CONDENSATION in your situation and design your wall coverings and insulation with it in mind. CONDENSATION in a shop is a BAD THING! > * In the process I'm having to empty my shed (mostly for insulating and > painting), so only those things I want in my shop get back into my shop. Good time to throw stuff out. Rule of thumb ---- "If you haven't touched it in 'X' years, you probably don't need it!" > * It's hard to clean If you do woodworking, now would be the time to think about a dust collection system of some sort. in terms of metal chips, etc. sealing the floor with some type of industrial epoxy floor sealant will make it much easier to sweep up and cut down on the accumulation of dirt and grease, etc. > * Chips get into EVERYTHING Don't use compressed air to clear chips off surfaces. Use an old brush and get a good wide heavy duty dust pan. I also set up 1/4 Plexiglas panels to shield off areas from chips. There really is not a lot you can do, chips is chips. Just make sure you clean your shoes well and don't take them in the house! My wife goes barefoot and ... well .... nuff said .... > * There's not much room / my benches are too big for the tools sitting > on them I'm going to say something radical here. Don't design a lot of open work space, rather have one really nice work bench area with your vice securely tied right into the wall of the shop. Why? The more open work space you have the more you will pile crap up on it instead of putting it away. If you have one nice work area and you start cluttering it up, then you got to clean it when you want to work don't ya :-) .... maybe I'm just lazy. I also have collapsible leg table which I can set up when I need more temporary space. > * My tables aren't that rigid, so sawing on my vise is a little > frustrating (I never did get around to bolting them to the walls, > something I swear I'll take care of this time!) (Ain't 20/20 hindsight > wonderful?) Build in your main work area bench right into the wall, nothing worse than trying to work on a wobbling vice! > * The lighting isn't great I have 3 fluorescent units, 2 bulbs a piece, 8 feet long bulbs, mounted to the ceiling in an "C" layout. > * All the tables have been situated for standing-height. After trying a > 27" tall lathe table, I find I *really* like sitting down when I'm > working. Just gotta get an apron. I like standing but have a 4 legged bar stool with a padded seat which lets me sit when I want to and still work at the same height. Also I have a little 3 step folding stepladder to get to top shelves and the top of my mill, etc. handy. > * My shop's disorganized!! No work flow! Ah don't worry so much about work flow .... you ain't running a production operation right? Concentrate on storage and ease of access to the machines and tools you use most. I do wood working also and have a Shopsmith knockoff combo tool. Also I have a small planer, small jointer, a scroll saw and a router table all which stack up in various ways and roll away under benches when not in use. My compressor is also tucked back in a corner under a bench. I have made some heavy duty wooden boxes on casters which roll under my mill bench and lathe bench. This is where I store my metal stock. I think there might be a picture of one corner of my shop in my FILES area on yahoo/egroups site for this group. Best of luck! After I did my reorganization I couldn't believe how much more enjoyable it was to work in the shop and wished I'd done it sooner. Of course a shop is never really done ... it's always a work in progress and there's always something new I'm adding or changing .... part of the fun ... Ken Jenkins ------- Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 11:21:52 -0500 From: Bradford Chaucer Subject: Re: Digest Number 590 At 09:54 AM 12/7/2001, you wrote: >I just made a cabinet under my lathe. About the same size and style >as the one showing in the photoalbum. The only differens is that I >used plywood. My question to you is how do I treat the wooden >surface. Should I use varnish, oil or just paint it. I am more >interested in what using in the inside of the cabinet. Due to that >many of the tools are oily the surface must have som resistance to >oil and dirt, and of course possible to clean. Spar varnish (a polyurethane) is the toughest general finish for wood. There are also Epoxy varnishes which are more resistant. Water based paints won't hold up. You might want to also consider lining surfaces that will take heavy ware with either Masonite (oil tempered hardboard) or even plastic, like heavy vinyl, Regards, Bradford Chaucer ------- Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 23:25:20 -0800 From: "Carol & Jerry Jankura" Subject: RE: How to treat a wooden surface Joachim: I built a couple of "tables" for my Sherline mill and lathe using Oak Plywood. The tops are made from three layers of 1/2 inch thick MDF material with a piece of laminate (Formica, Lexan, etc.) for the top. Each Sherline tool mounts on its own "base" again consisting of three pieces of 1/2 inch thick MDF material. The tops of these surfaces are covered with a piece of sheet steel (primed and painted white) to provide a surface which magnetic bases for indicator tools. The wood surfaces were stained with a Pecan stain and then covered with a polyurethane varnish. As far as your being from Sweden and having a name that is not Swedish - except for our American Indian list members, all of us in the States have names that are not originally "American". Mine's of Czechoslovakian origin. Carol & Jerry Jankura Strongsville, Ohio ------- Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 13:59:50 +0100 From: "Graham Knight" Subject: Re: Hey this sounds useful, any tips on how to sneak expensive toys into the house without attracting The Boss's attention, and how to justify purchase of said toys should they be spotted? Graham in London, England SAM35 & 1066 Raynes Park MAC Secretary http://website.lineone.net/~raynes.pk.mac/ ------- Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 23:42:15 -0500 From: Custom Built Fishing Rods Subject: Re: One thing that works with my toy (rc) race cars is to keep everything piled in a single heap, it's hard for the casual observer to tell what's new and what's not. If I do get caught bringing in a new piece, I "traded" for it. Of course she knows I'm fibbing, but she allows me to get away with it. There is however a method to her madness, I never complain when she drags up her latest "find", and I always have time to refinish it for her. Nothing works like mutual denial when it comes to marital bliss ;~) ------- Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 09:13:15 -0500 From: "Daniel Kaschner" Subject: RE: Now this sounds like a real talent that I need to further develop. :-) I already have her convinced that the shop (and all my toys) is actually for her... after all, they are only there for my "honey-do" list, aren't they. :-) The only trouble that I have with using the harvest gold gas-fired annealing oven (almond in our case :-), is that as a woodworker I have attempted to microwave dry some beautiful spalted maple I have... only to start a small fire... no problem, put it out OK, and it did leave a nice holidayish, open hearth, yule log, kind of smell in the house last New Years Eve. :-) Long and short of it is, I kinda lost a few points there when it comes to the "trust me honey" activities... Probably just have to brush up on my skills a bit, maybe learn a few new angles. :-) Dan ------- Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 13:15:15 -0500 From: Ron Roske Subject: Re: The single pile approach works well, however I have found that the multiple pile concept works sooo much better. I have never delved into the exact science of exactly why it works so much more effectively, but suspect that it has something to do with geometrical progression. Then there is the " Oh, I bought that several weeks ago." This works quite well in the early stages of a marriage, but it's effectiveness gradually tapers to zero. Later in life, this approach may be ritualized by adding the phrase "don't you remember?" to the previous phrase. As to the creation of obnoxious odors. The first rule is to never do anything that might cause odors while she is home. The second rule is to always have a back up. plan. A quick run to the store to buy her something just to show her that you've been thinking of her. A nice scented candle works very well. In a pinch, a new can of some exotic air freshener can be used. But this technique may have to be supplemented with a phrase something like "I thought that this sounded like something that would smell nice, but I really don't care for it, do you, Dear?" Warning! Use these techniques at you own risk. Also remember, in marriage as in life, what goes around, comes around. Have a good one, All! RonR ------- Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 14:38:34 EDT From: Cmcvclockx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: I've got one that works even better for me. My shop is in the basement with entrance from the street for my retail customers and through the house for me. When we bought this house several years ago, my wife told me that she wouldn't come down in the shop until I put up a railing for her to hold on to coming down the inside stairs. Still haven't put up the rail, she hasn't been in the shop and has no idea what UPS brings me through the week! Chris McVetty The Clock Meister 1000 East Main Street Murfreesboro TN 37130 (615)895-8788 ------- Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 19:13:46 -0400 From: "Marshall Pharoah" Subject: Re: It is a well known fact that women can't really tell one tool from another. The trick is to keep a very messy workshop. Leave sheets draped over everything, especially piles of crap. When you bring home a new tool, make sure she's out for the day. Replace one of the piles of crap with it and recover with a sheet. When she notices, "Why, I've had that for ages, dear." Method 2. Take her shopping. Buy until she is sick of it. Whe she comes out of a store with nothing, find out why, what she wanted that was too expensive. Then go back in and buy it. She'll never say a word when you drop four times as much on a new tool. (Don't tell her the price, of course.) ------- Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 14:02:14 -0400 From: Tom Bank Subject: Re: the scenery list. Graham, Pat, Daniel, Ron, others -- Back about fifty years ago there was an article or a letter in the Model Railroader magazine by a guy who said he had an overcoat custom made by a tailor for him. On the inside edge of the facing on the button hole side he had a looong pocket installed that went straight down, long enough to hide a brass articulated locomotive. The coat cost him a pretty penny, but the engine of his dreams made it to the basement -- where he was able to paint and weather it so it blended in with the rest of his possessions. The candle tip is good, but remember to light it before -- or immediately upon -- starting what turns out to be a smelly process. The candle flame will then, with luck, consume some or all of the smell. Clue your wife in. It helps with cooking odors. As for hiding things in one or more piles, I do it the easy way: I am just lax in cleaning up my "Lair" (where I go to do all my hobby stuff). She rarely sticks her nose into the mess. When I need to use a tool, I clean up around it. Sometimes in doing so I encounter wonderful things I had totally forgotten. On occasion I have come across two or three of the same neat tool -- of which I only ever needed one, if I had remembered that I had already purchased it. Regards, Tom ------- Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 15:34:06 -0400 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Two Questions about Dimensions Hi Glenn: Congratulations on your new machines! I have built bases for a fair number of machines, and while I can't offer specific dimensions for the Atlas mill, would recommend you size the base to put the table a few inches below the point of your elbow when standing. This allows you to work without stooping, and allows you to place heavy items such as vices, rotary tables, dividing heads, whatever, on the table without having to pass through the awkward zone where the forearms cross over a line parallel to the floor. Easier on you, and makes it less likely to slip and put a heavy bit of tooling down on the table hard. If this doesn't make sense, hold a pencil in each hand pointed forward, keep them parallel to the floor, and raise them from below the belt to chest height - the wrists do funny things as you cross through, particularly when heavily loaded. My mill/drill stand is made of 2 inch angle iron, welded, and has filler panels on the rear and sides. The side fillers are 3/4 inch birch ply, this lets you put screws to hang things where you want them. I allowed about 4 inches extra on each side, and capped the overhang with polyurethaned 6 inch shelving. The overhang helps keep drips and crud off the sides. 1 inch angle iron was welded in running front to back for drawer supports, this allows drawers to be built as strong trays. Clean up the angle iron inner surfaces a bit, wax the drawer bottom and sides, and things slide nicely, even when heavily loaded. Not as nice as full extension heavy duty roller slides, but certainly cheaper! The mill drill itself is bolted to two pieces of 4 inch channel iron welded across the front and rear top pieces of angle iron. A drip pan fits between the two channel iron supports, to catch the drips from the leadscrew and bits of swarf that get past the shields. 1/2 inch steel squares are welded to the bottom of the angle iron uprights, tapped 1/2-13 to allow adjustable feet. About 4 inches up from the floor, angle iron is welded on to create a set of lips to take a bottom shelf. I would go higher the next time, the edges of the angle iron shelf support frame ended up too close to the floor to make clean up as easy as I had intended, I put the shelf four inches from the floor, not the lower edge of the angle iron :-( In reality, I wish the drawers hade been built close to the floor, with the heavy shelf up higher. The shelf tends to gather heavy stuff like rotary tables, lifting them from low down gets old. Getting a 1/2 inch endmill from 6 inches off the floor is easier than lifting a 10 inch rotary table. This may get done, it's just that changing it around will be a lot of work, as the mill has to come off, and a new paint job will have to go on when the welding is done. I find that I don't hang things on the side of the cabinet base as originally allowed for. Even with the overhang, swarf would get on wrenches, the clamping bits and pieces were awkward to get to when the table was moved very far from center, yadda yadda... Seemed like a good idea at the time, it's just that mills tend to toss swarf and oil all over, unlike a shaper or lathe. If you don't have welding equipment, you could bolt it all together, just add some diagonal bracing to keep things from racking. My base weights around 200 pounds, add in another couple of hundred pounds of tooling and fixtures, and things stay in place without vibrating quite nicely. Some folks have built lumber bases, if you use good sturdy stuff, and glue and screw everything, that works OK in many cases. Most of my workbenches are built this way. I tend to avoid sheet metal bases for two reasons - they tend to be noisy and a tad flimsy, and I don't have the equipment or skill to built them well. A friend with a stamped steel base for his Rong Fu RF31 mill drill put 3 bags of sand in his base and bonded some 3/4 ply to the inner walls of the sides with construction adhesive, this helped quite a bit. Hope this is of some use, Stan ------- Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 20:15:35 -0400 From: "Carol & Jerry Jankura" Subject: RE: Totally ignorant questions |I've been thinking seriously for months about getting a Sherline |lathe. I did some woodworking in the past, but I've never done any |metalworking before, and I'm worried about how practical it is to do |this in an apartment. Great! If you have the space, I'd suggest the 4400 over the 4000 (long bed vs short bed) because you'll find that sometimes, chucks and reamers take up a lot of 'over the bed' space. |I emailed Sherline a while back about how much noise a lathe makes |and was told it would not be louder than a vacuum. Is that about |right? I'm hoping it won't be that loud--maybe more like a sewing |machine? Sherline is correct - it won't be louder than a vacuum cleaner. It'll be quite a bit quieter. I don't think that you'll have neighbors complaining (but, then, I don't know your neighbors) when you use it. I'd probably not place it against a connecting wall, just to be sure. |Also, how easy is it to clean up after using a lathe or milling |machine? If I do something where oil is needed, how likely is it to |get slung all over the place? It depends on how you prepare your workshop (yes, an area in an apartment can be considered a workshop). Sherline suggests that you mount the machine on a small shelf purchased from a Home Depot or similar store. Forget this. Instead, think about building an enclosure for it. Put a metal pan under the machine to collect any cutting oil that may drip and plan on applying oil sparingly rather than as a flood. If you have a back and a couple of sides, you'll limit the direction in which chips can travel. Work on a tile or lineoleum surface, and put a rubber type pad on that. You'll have problems with a shag carpet, for example. |Basically, I'm wondering if my neighbors or landlord will have a |problem with this, and if I'll be losing my security deposit on the |way out next year. I'd venture that your neighbors won't know that you have a machine. As far as your security deposit - it's probably more a matter of the landlord's integrity and your housekeeping methods. If you surround the machine on at least four sides (leave the end near the handwheels open and the front) when you're machining, you'll have a good chance at keeping the place clean. You'll also want to invest in a decent small shop vacuum, and use it often during the machining process. |Also, I've gotten the Tabletop Machining book. Is there any point to |getting The Home Machinist's Handbook too? yes, they compliment each other. You might also want to consider some of the "shop wisdom of Rudy Kouhoupt" books from Village Press. Book #2 offers a fair number of projects aimed at the Sherline tools (more on the mill than the lathe, though). Jerry ------- Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 18:38:42 -0500 From: "Al Lenz" Subject: RE: Poor Man's Surface Plate, was ' Lapping' While shopping for ceramic tile a few years ago, I noticed the outlets also carried a few marble and granite tiles. I picked up a black granite floor tile 12 X 12 and about 3/8 thick. It was 5 or 6 dollars as I recall. I have certainly got my money's worth out of it, lapping with wet or dry paper, or using is as a surface plate. I know that it isn't 'perfectly' flat, but is darn close, better than anything that I have to check it against. Judging from the reflection in it's polished surface, I would think it compares favorably with a plate glass mirror. Al ------- Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 17:39:03 -0000 From: "Orrin" Subject: Machining in living quarters? Does anyone have their machine tools set up in their living quarters? If so, how much of a problem is it to cope with the swarf and lubricant mess? To explain: I have a machine shop in the basement, but don't feel right about spending my evenings down there. My wife has a day job and I feel it's not right to have her spend her evenings alone. It's just too cool for her to come down to the shop while she reads the paper, etc. I've toyed with the idea of setting up a machinist's cupboard in our TV lounge area and "doing my thing" on the Sherlines, there. We don't have carpet in this area. The main thing holding me back is the mess. My full- sized machines can really create one, big-time. Thank you in advance for your input. Orrin ------- Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 10:45:38 -0700 From: "Dave Hylands" Subject: RE: Machining in living quarters? Hi Orrin, I have my Sherline setup downstairs in an area with carpeted flooring. Most of my mess seems to be on the table, with a bit of it spilling onto the floor. Adding deflectors made of Plexiglas (or pretty much anything) really helps to contain the mess. I have a bunch of rectangular cork "hot pads" or pieces of cardboard that I prop up depending on where things are flying. I eventually want to install something more permanent, but I need to use the machines for a while to get a feel for where I do and don't want some type of enclosure. The fly cutter seems to distribute the mess the widest. If you don't have carpeting then it should be pretty easy to sweep up anything that misses and winds up on the floor. Dave Hylands Vancouver, BC, Canada http://www.davehylands.com/ ------- Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 14:04:39 -0400 From: "Dan Statman" Subject: Re: Machining in living quarters? Orrin, I do a lot of machining every day, 4-8 hours. The mess is enormous from this. I am generally running both the Sherline mill and lathe at the same time. I do not use cutting fluid except while milling with TINY cutters (0.03125" and smaller). I do this all in my basement, and could never imagine bringing this mess upstairs. I seem to track enough of it upstairs, anyway. Daniel J. Statman, Statman Designs www.statmandesigns.com ------- Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 12:36:42 -0700 From: Alan Marconett KM6VV Subject: Re: Machining in living quarters? Hi Orrin, I have a CNC controlled Sherline Mill in my upstairs "bonus" room (used for my "office"). It's carpeted. For the last two years I just ran the mill on a 6' x 30" credenza. As long as you're not wanting to run flood cooling, the chips can be handled. I often kept a unfolded cardboard box (6"x6"x6" or so, the sides, top/bottom cut off), and wrapped it around the work envelope if I was generating excessive swarf. Nowadays, I have a large Plexiglas box that the mill runs in, and it's quite easy to contain things. The Plexiglas box was intended for shows, and with minimal cutting on the top, works fine. The front, which is the open side of the box, allows me access, and I guess I could make some removeable Plexiglas panels to close it off, or a plastic "curtain", but I haven't bothered yet. I'd suggest a carpet scrap in front of the mill, although I didn't even have that for two years. I can take a pix and post it if anyone is interested. I have SEVERAL computers, TV, CD's, VCR's, HAM radio's, etc. in the same area, so it's really convenient to run there! Original thought was to put a computer in the garage, with the lathe, bandsaw, grinder, and (then) mill. But as I was integrating the CNC mill system, I didn't want to run up and down stairs to try things out on the mill. Well... the mill never made it back to the garage, although I did get an RF-31 mill. IT will stay in the garage! Alan KM6VV P.S. Yes, I have a wife, and she's OK with this. I would recommend headphones, as the mill cutting can get quite loud (might not be a problem if you're running manually). ------- Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 19:48:44 -0000 From: "Flosi Gudmundsson" Subject: Re: Machining in living quarters? Orrin, I read it somewhere on the internet, that the only real problem with doing metalworking in the living room is that when flycutting, red hot chips can fly around and spoil the enamel of your motorbyke. I don't have a motorbyke, but my lathe and mill are stationed in a corner of my livingroom. I keep a broom and a vacuum cleaner ready and clean up often. So far the oak floor hasn't suffered noticeably. I think it's a matter of cleaning up before it becomes a mess. I think it's just a matter of how much machining you are going to do. Flosi in Iceland ------- Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 17:44:39 EDT From: goodolddanx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Machining in living quarters? Hi Orrin and all, Because of advancing arthritis and two-replacement knee surgery, I was unable to keep machining in the cool damp garage climate here in northern Illinois. I set up a machining center in my old N scale train room. I have shag carpeting on the floor now protected by 2 plastic rug protectors from an office supply store. Purchasing a used office desk and credenza allows me to sit and roll around between the lathe and v.mill "workstations" via an "office type chair". I added a metal cookie sheet to the lathe area and use a small vacuum cleaner to clean up the chips. The Sherline 5400 mill is mounted to a laminate covered board with rubber feet to cut down on noise and vibration. It is easily moved to the desk area when needed. Like Allen, I keep my ham radio receiver, a combo TV and VCR and a "music" type radio within hand's reach of the desk. I do make an effort to keep the room and work surfaces clean. I added a dental type multi drawer cabinet for tool storage, a Kennedy type machinist chest, and "container" type box for the grinding wheel and now jeweler's lathe workstations. One added benefit besides a more comfortable work area, one of my granddaughters has shown an interest in machining now that I'm out of the garage. Happy Chips everyone!!!!!! Dan ------- Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 14:56:04 -0700 From: "David Wood" Subject: Re: Machining in living quarters? I'm sure others will respond similarly, but you should read the article in The Shop Wisdom of Rudy Kouhoupt on setting up a portable cabinet to accommodate the machines. (If you don't have this book, and its companion volume 2, you should.) Dave Wood ------- Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 22:06:56 -0400 From: RichD Subject: Re: Machining in living quarters? Well, my hobby machining area is carpeted with the office thin closed loop type carpet and besides saving drop tools, etc from serious damage, it also keeps the chips from being tracked all thru the house. Vacuuming up soon after a project session, before trampling the chips into the carpet, is easy. I watch for good carpet discards and place where needed. Flying chip control is effective with sections of corrugated cardboard boxes placed as needed and then stowed when not in use. Cheap & easy to modify. Simple L sections are free standing. The Sherline 5400 mill takes a 10" high 3 sided cardboard shield nicely. RichD ------- Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 22:27:11 -0400 From: "John Guenther" Subject: RE: Machining in living quarters? I used to have my lathe and mill on a 30 x 72 inch work bench/hobby center in the family room of our townhouse. This worked out well, I had a plastic office chair pad under the table and a rolling chair at the table. I just vacuumed up the swarf at the end of each session. Ever since the flood of Christmas 1999 (broken polybutylene (sp) pipe) my lathe and mill have been in the garage. This limits my machining to the warmer months, but I am getting a heater this winter. John Guenther Sterling, Virginia ------- Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 18:21:36 -0400 From: "Ron Ginger" Subject: RE: Machining in living quarters? A few years ago I had to spend a month at a University trainnig course, where I stayed in a hotel. Since I never watch TV I figured Id have to take something to work on. At that Time I had a Unimat so I built it a traveling case and took some other modeling tools. I had the hotel send up an extra table and in the month I was there I finished a nice model. The staff probably thought I was nuts, but I had a 'Dust Buster' vac along and kept thing cleaned up each night after I used it. I just bought a Fith wheel type camper and this winter my wife and I will spend a few weeks somewhere south with it. I expect to take along some small set of modeling machines, whatever I can fit into the one storage compartment I can devote to this. My wife gets a similar storage compartment for her quilting project. Its nicer to have a dedicated shop room, but it can be shared with the rest of the living quarters with some care. ron ginger ------- Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 14:13:08 -0500 From: "Dick Farris" Subject: RE: Re-wiring my lathe [atlas_craftsman] > From: mhannah100x~xxaol.com [mailto:mhannah100x~xxaol.com] > Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 9:28 AM > I'm in the process of doing a quick cleanup and inspection of my *new*model 101 QC lathe before I mount it on my homemade stand. I'm thinking that I should re-wire it with a 3-wire cord having a grounding conductor for safety reasons. How is the best way to do this? < Take the green ground conductor to the frame of the motor and under that screw or bolt put another short flex jumper to the frame of the machine. Ground to bare metal in all cases. Then make sure your outlet ground wires are continuous from the outlet all the way back to the ground bar in the fuse or the breaker box. Be sure your system has only one main ground point like at a water main or a driven ground rod otherwise you may get what is called ground currents and this really promotes electrolysis or electrical erosion. Dick Farris Retired Electrical and computer engineer Craftsman 109, Smithy Granite, broken taps and bits. ------- Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 17:12:35 -0600 From: Rodent Subject: Re: Re-wiring my lathe Most motors have a green ground screw inside the cover where the power wires are connected. This should be tied to the green wire in your cord which goes to the ground pin on your AC plug. Assuming your lathe motor runs on 110 VAC, make sure you use a 3-prong cord and outlet and use a meter or one of those $3 testers from Home Depot to make sure the outlet is wired properly. In a workshop environment I would suggest having a GFI outlet installed for your 110 VAC powered equipment -- this is a special outlet that helps prevent electrical shocks by detecting leakage current. Older houses don't have them, but newer houses typically have them in the kitchen and garage. They look like a regular outlet, but have a test and reset button on them. ------- Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 20:11:51 -0500 From: Ronald Thibault Subject: Re: Re-wiring my lathe At 01:59 PM 11/24/02 -0500, you wrote: >Consider Ground Fault Device as well. Ground motor for sure and as >switch may be on machine that also may wise to ground as well. Note that regular Ground Fault Interrupters GFI have trouble with motors, they can frequently trip on motor startup (1/2HP and up). Look for GFIs that are "Motor Rated" at your hardware store. The ones I found are basically an ON/OFF switch, so you need an additional electrical box space for the actual outlet. Ron Thibault Warrenville, SC USA http://personal.atl.bellsouth.net/t/h/thib9564/ ------- Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 05:50:22 -0600 From: "Mike" Subject: Re: Cleaning/ Re-wiring my lathe Thanks guys, for all the tips on cleaning and wiring my machine with a ground conductor. I did a little cleaning last night...used what I had handy...engine degreaser. It worked fairly well but took some scrubbing. I'm going to try some kerosene and/or mineral spirits when I get a chance to work on it again. The wiring suggestions confirmed what I was thinking about doing. I felt like the ground wire should be attached to the motor frame but wasn't sure about whether to ground anything else. I liked the suggestion about tying in a short pigtail wire [to motor ground terminal or case] and attaching it to the frame of the machine also. Sounds like the way to go. I already have ground fault protected circuits in my shop. I just finished building my shop, and by code all the 120v receptacles are required to have GFCI protection, so that's not a problem. However, I have been told that they sometimes cause *nuisance tripping* with some electric motor applications, as was noted in one of the posts. Thanks again for the suggestions. Mike Hannah ------- Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 20:37:34 -0600 From: "Paul Siegert" Subject: RE: Re: Bed Stiffener Jerry: How well a lathe is leveled is critical when doing close tolerance work. The tighter the tolerances you are working to, the more important this is. I have a friend in Florida that has a relatively expensive lathe that he had a company that specializes in rolling frames build a caster wheel rig to do with his lathe what you are doing with your woodworking tools on wheels (he also has all his woodworking tools on wheels for the same reason you do). It is great looking and he has leveled it with a very accurate precision level. I asked him if it was still level after he moved in. It has been several months since he installed it and his comment was something to the effect of given the time it took to level, he hasn't lowered the wheels to move it from the initial place he leveled it. Living in the Dallas area and given the incredible heat in the summer and lack of rain, foundations (no basements here) tend to shift a bit one way in the summer and the opposite in the cooler rainy weather. When doing critical work I have to relevel two or three times a year or the results are unacceptable. This is on a lathe that is considerably more stable, structurally and otherwise than my Craftsman. From what I've read the Craftsman/Atlas lathes, due to their light, non rigid construction are particularly vulnerable to inaccuracies when not properly leveled. That is a long comment to say that I think you will have to relevel the lathe each time you move it if you put it on casters, and the time to level it may take longer than the project you are going to use it for (of course a lot depends on the accuracy you require on the project at hand). No matter how big your shop is, it will never be large enough, given enough time and money. Paul ------- Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 03:47:24 -0000 From: "George" Subject: Re: Bed Stiffener Guys: I think that you are forgetting the reason that you are leveling your lathe!! We don't level them so that they are true to the level of the earth! We level them so as to make sure that they are level with themselves!! That is, that ALL parts of the lathe are TRUE to all other parts of the lathe!! The best way to do that is to level the work bench that the lathe is bolted to, then level the lathe to the bench! Now if the bench is moved after leveling and it is solid enough not to warp then the lathe is still level to the bench and therefor will still run true!! If the bench is not strong enough and warps then the lathe will not be level to the bench and will not run true!! So if you build a strong enough bench for your lathe then you should be able to move it around some and not have to relevel it every so often!! Just my $.02 worth! George Hunt Tool&Die Machinist ------- Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 11:53:22 -0800 From: "Bob May" Subject: Re: Re: Bed Stiffener Here we go again with the "level" problem again. I'll say this, if you have a non-solid surface that you have the lathe on, make the bottom support of the base a 3 point support and then a plate which you can work against the lathe bed to make the lathe aligned or "leveled" properly. This will allow the lathe to be moved as desired without losing the alignment of the lathe. Bob May http://nav.to/bobmay NEW! http://bobmay.astronomy.net ------- Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 21:31:55 -0600 From: "John Glowacki" Subject: Concrete Lathe Base I have uploaded a picture of my concrete lathe base to the 12" lathes> Craftsman folder. My father, Ted P. Glowacki, was a self employed job shop machinist for thirty some years. His machine shop was attached to our house in Germantown Wisconsin (USA). This gave me the added benefit of growing up in and around a machine shop, with real machines. All of his equipment dated back to the 1920's -- 1940's. He had this Craftsman 101.070403 12" x 36" lathe around for small lightweight jobs. He made many bushings etc. with this machine over the years. My father passed away this past February after a hard fought battle with heart disease. After my father's passing, we had the huge task of cleaning up and clearing out his shop. This made for a very busy year for us, as my wife gave birth to a wonderful baby boy five days before my father passed. It's been a real roller coaster. After all was said and done, the craftsman lathe had to stay in my shop. Anyway, back to the lathe base. My father constructed this concrete lathe base more than thirty years ago. This takes a relatively flimsy lathe, and transports it into a very stable machine. The sheer mass of the concrete makes for a very nice platform. There were some concerns posted about lack of portability with concrete. That is right, this IS NOT portable! At All! In fact, it took a bit of engineering to move. We removed the lathe from the base, and involved ropes and chains and wheels and tractors, and about fifty seven vise grip pliers, and more wheels and ropes, well, you get the picture. My father in law was in charge of this operation. I just did what I was told. Without doing the math, I think this concrete base weighs in at 500-700 lb. It is not top heavy or unstable. The legs are very heavy steel pipe welded and braced with leveling screws on the feet. And I'm sure the concrete has a whole lot of steel re-bar inside. It is even built with a coolant trough that runs the perimeter of the base with a drain tube. The lathe bolts to three studs that are cemented into the base. After moving we re-attached the lathe to the base, and leveled it with the foot screws. It is solid. This may be overkill for a craftsman lathe, but dad built this for stability, not portability. This is the first time it has moved since it was built. I now have this fine lathe, and more tooling than I could list. It has been many years since worked as a machinist. I am going to take it slow, as my time is a bit limited with a 9-10 month old baby boy at home, but I will work on my lathe skills and bring them up to date. This user group is a fine asset for helping to make that happen. I hope to contribute as I can. My father worked a lot of good information into my head. So far, the motor gave out after the move, so I have installed a new motor, with reverse. I also just installed a segmented link belt to the spindle. I only wish dad could have been here to see it. He would have been impressed! John Glowacki ------- Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 03:41:22 -0000 From: "Derf" Subject: Re: Concrete Lathe Base You should go to Varmint Al's site and read his history. It sounds like you two have a lot in common. http://www.cctrap.com/~varmint/alath.htm Cheers, Derf ------- Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 00:41:37 -0000 From: "Richard Feldman " Subject: Lighting for my my lathe I've gotten tired of the bare 75W bulb hanging above my 618, and am looking for ideas for a relatively straightforward home remedy... something effective that I can put together, or even a commercial product that's a "gotta-have". Any ideas? Sorry for the trivial aspect of the question, but you all come up with such practical solutions things; my search of the archives yielded nil. Thanks, Rich ------- Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 19:43:12 -0500 From: Ed Bell Subject: Re: Lighting for my my lathe I use a cantilevered double 15W florescent fixture that I got used. With my middle-aged eyes, I couldn't live without it. Ed ------- Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 02:01:50 -0000 From: "dkinzer2000 " Subject: Re: Lighting for my my lathe I have one of those extending arm lamps mounted on my lathe so that I can move it around to where light is needed. In place of the usual clamp type mount, I have a short piece of square tubing with a hole drilled to accept the stem of the lamp swivel. This is attached to the back of the lathe with machine screws. I'm thinking of replacing the lamp with one of those round fluorescent types with the magnifying glass in the center. Don Kinzer Portland, OR ------- Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 20:20:02 -0600 From: Rodent Subject: Re: Re: Lighting for my my lathe We were fortunate enough to find a pair of gooseneck lamps with an actual metal shade, one clamp-on and one weighted base -- a whopping $8 at the office supply. If you take off the base / clamp and make a bracket for the gooseneck you have a nice worklight. Unfortunately, they have since stopped selling the lights in pairs and now sell only singles for about the same price. Avoid like hell the magnetic base worklights Harbor Freight sells -- if the bracket doesn't bust within a week or two, the plastic switch plunger will melt down with a 55-watt bulb, even when it says its rated for a 75 watt bulb. As far as the round, fluorescent, magnifying "ring" lights, keep in mind they may create a stroboscopic effect on a turning part. Some folks don't even notice it, while others experience vertigo. You also have a very small undistorted field of view -- things outside the center of the lens tend to be distorted. If you are making a really small part and needed to see what's going on, they would be ideal -- otherwise get a pair of reading glasses from Wal-Mart. At any rate, don't pay more than $40 for the cheap ones and don't waste your money on the expensive ones. I would not even consider the ones with an incandescent bulbs. ------- Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 22:38:03 -0500 From: "Richard Farris" Subject: Re: Lighting for my my lathe I've got a couple of twin tube 40 watt shop flourescents over my lathes and have two separate 75 watt incandescent clamp type shop lights that I clamp to a shelf or an overhead joist - where ever I decide I need them. Then I have a double jointed swing arm incandescent at 75 watts that can be angled about any angle I want. I like to use the incandescents to knock out or diminish the strobe effect I sometimes get from the fluorescents. Dick Farris ------- Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 22:56:42 EST From: anthrhodesx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Lighting for my my lathe In a message dated Sun, 08 Dec 2002, Ed Bell writes: << I use a cantilevered double 15W florescent fixture that I got used. With my middle-aged eyes, I couldn't live without it. >> Ooh, that's a touchy concept. Have you ever gotten the "movie effect" where the chuck looks like it's running slower than you know it is or stopping, then running in reverse? It's my understanding that this effect can occur with flourescent lamps because they light the scene as if they were 120 Hertz stroboscopes. Using the flourescent lamps *in addition to* incandescents should cure the potential problem and is a reasonable solution. Anthony Berkeley, Calif. ------- Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 22:13:23 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Re: Lighting for my my lathe Mostly a theoretical problem. I have tried to spot the effect as the lathe stopped, never have spotted a real "stop-motion" effect. The phosphors on the standard fluorescent tube have "persistence", they keep glowing for a short while. This is a design feature of the lamps, which smears out the light pulses. There will always be a multi-colored "streak" effect, even at the perfect strobe speed. The colors come from the decay rate of the various phosphors. Blink as you turn off a fluorescent lamp, you will often see a greenish after-glow. If you have a regular outdoor mercury vapor or sodium arc lamp, you might indeed have the problem in a more marked fashion Jerry ------- Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 16:57:37 -0500 From: Jeff A Hammer Subject: Re: Re: Lighting for my lathe-Thanks Yes, I have incandescent and replacement screw in fluorescent "bulbs" in the standard 1930's ceiling fixtures of my workshop for general lighting. But for task lighting around the lathe and other tools, I use my old #9004 halogen car headlights running off an old XT computer power supply using the 5 and 12 volt leads. This gives a choice of two different intensities. Up here in Canada, the headlights on most vehicles are used as daytime running lights and come on as soon as you start your car but at a reduced brightness. This has the effect of prematurely burning out the regular beam filament, leaving the high beam filament intact. The high beam is 65 watts at 12 volt or you can put two bulbs in series for 32.5 watts each. I just hang them on two bare wires for "+" and "-" and you can slide them too any position along the wires, wherever you want the light. Choosing the "-" and the 5 or 12 volt "+" wire. Best of all these bulbs are free, I used to just throw them out, and the power supplies from old XT PC's are also free ( you can't even give them away). These are "switching power supplies" which run at extremely high frequencies and are very clean with no strobe affect. Just a note, don't open up these power supplies, they're vary dangerous. Throw them away or take them apart for the components and get another one from your local computer store to use for the lights. One more thing, there are commercially available halogen lighting systems sold at Home Depot that work the exact same way (without the choice of brightness) for use in kitchens etc. Well that's my tip of the day, never throw anything out when you can use it for something it was never intended. Regards, Jeff ------- Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 10:26:37 -0800 From: "Bob May" Subject: Re: Re: New Member [NOTE TO FILE: QUESTION AS TO BEST HEIGHT FOR LATHE WORKBENCH? There are many answers. This one makes really good sense as everyone has individual preferences, based on their own experiences.] That sort of stuff is highly variable. I myself don't like to stand for extended times and prefer to sit at a desk type chair. This means that large lathes are usually way too high for me to sit at unless I use a lab stool. Then comes the angle at which you look at the work. Some like to look down almost from directily overhead while others tend to look more level. Most tend to want to work the majority of the controls of a lathe with a slight lift of the hands from the horizontal. If you haven't done machining before, try the lathe on a typical bench and see if you can access everything easily without problems and you feel comfortable. Bob May http://nav.to/bobmay NEW! http://bobmay.astronomy.net ------- Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 19:24:56 -0800 From: "Wally Skyrman" Subject: Bench Height for a Bench lathe If memory serves me I built my lathe bench according to the suggestions that came with our 12" Craftsman lathe back in 1970. Well it was too low for me and I made raiser blocks to go under both ends that raised it up to where the cross feed handle is even with my elbow. An unintended consequence was that I ended up with an extra 3 1/2" under the lathe bed and carriage. Makes it a lot easier to clean up, not that I am noted for cleaning up after myself. (:-). Wally Skyrman Central Point, OR ------- Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 10:20:59 -0800 From: "Bob May" Subject: Re: LATHE LIGHT The Salvation Army type stores are always a good place to go to find things like this. Personally, I'd rather have a nice gooseneck incandescent lamp over the lathe (no strobe effect from the light!) and the head mounted magnifiers for viewing the work. Bob May http://nav.to/bobmay NEW! http://bobmay.astronomy.net ------- Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 23:30:33 -0500 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: lathe light Skip Evans wrote: > Be leery of the 8 footers. They are slower to start and sometimes > if it cold, not at all. Stick with the 4 footers. There are 8 foot high output fixtures specified for outdoor use, such as those found in bank drive throughs and other such places. Expensive unless you know a commercial electrician who can give you some old ones when commercial buildings modernize or remodel. My neighbor has three of them in his shop, they start when the 4 foot twin tube el cheapo brand shop lights won't! The shop lights with real ballasts cost more, but are worth it. I have some of the cheap ones with the baby ballasts in the ends rather than the true ballast above. They have less light output, won't run commercial higher output tubes, fail more often, and don't cold start well at all. When looking at used commercial lighting, double check the voltage. I was surprised when working with one of our electricians (hanging a data projector 15 foot up) to note the 440V stickers on the lines to the grid lights. According to him, 440V fluorescent fixtures are quite common in commercial buildings. Guess that's why commercial and residential electricians are two different pieces of the trade. Cheers, Stan ------- Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 01:17:06 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: lathe light Here in Michigan the gas stations that are well lite in Summer (when you really don't need the light) get really dingy (and depressing) when it gets cold...light output falls off steeply as temperature gets near freezing or below. Fluorescent (sp) fixtures in my unheated garage don't work near as well in cold of Winter as they do in heat of Summer...so I have incandescent bulbs as well. Louis ------- Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 21:41:44 -0800 From: "Patrick Lee Rooney" Subject: RE: Lathe Storage -----Original Message----- From: too_many_tools [mailto:too_many_toolsx~xxyahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 7:26 AM Subject: [atlas_craftsman] Lathe Storage >> On the subject of storing a bench lathe, has anyone come up with a novel way of having a lathe bench and hauling crate combined. I am thinking of perhaps combining the two features so one can use the bottom of the crate for a lathe bench. Also combining features to make it easier to haul up a set of steps by the single user/mover would be really neat too. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks in advance Too_many_Tools << Just a suggestion if you do make a crate for your lathe. I am located on the coast, and machine tools located in unheated facilities tend to rust ...fast. We made a bunch of crates open ended at the top, and glassed them over. A few 12V auto type bulbs mounted inside these covers and connected to a battery and solar charger keeps the air surrounding the machine heated just enough to avert any surface rust. A few that are against the wall, just fold down on compound hinges. Ones in the middle of the floor require two people to mount on the machines, and are sort of a pain. Keeps the machines nice and fresh though, so worth the trouble. Just can't afford to heat the facility 24/7. Good luck, Pat. ------- Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 19:25:53 -0500 From: "John Guenther" Subject: RE: Lathe Storage go to http://www.sherline.com/workshop.htm and check out the Traveling Workshop/Jerry Kieffer which is about 1/2 way down the page. John Guenther 'Ye Olde Pen Maker' Sterling, Virginia ------- Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 06:30:32 +0000 From: Brian Squibb Subject: RE: Lathe Storage 28/03/2003, you wrote: >Just a suggestion if you do make a crate for your lathe. I am located on the coast, and machine tools located in unheated facilities tend to rust...fast. < I use an aerosol oil all over the tools which keeps the rust at bay, also keeps the tools well lubed and running free. Brian ------- Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 15:06:19 -0000 From: "azbruno" Subject: Re: Bench for 618 Simpson Strong-Tie has 6 DIY project plans you can download at www.strongtie.com/ftp/fliers/diy-project.pdf I built the Heavy Duty Table. They sell a kit for about $25 which includes all the brackets and screws (www.strongtie.com/diy/diykwb1.htm) or you can get them separately. Put at least an inch of plywood on the top. I also added an extra 2x4 rail down the middle front to back to provide extra support and to have something to screw down the plywood to in the middle (using a couple of other Simpson connectors for stability). I finished the top with about 6 layers of polyurethane, leveled it and bracketed it to a solid wall. Works great and is very fast to build (except for waiting for the polyurethane to dry) and inexpensive. -Bruno ------- Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 16:39:37 -1000 (HST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: Re: 7 inch shaper bench height [NOTE TO FILE: The original discussion related to an AMMCO shaper needing a bench and was put into the "AMMCO Shaper" text file. The comments in this message are more general so it's here.] On Sat, 24 May 2003, al_messer wrote: > One thing a lot of folks don't think about when building a bench is > height vs. back troubles. Example: my kitchen sink counter is just > about 2 inches too low for my wife or myself to stand and wash dishes > for any length of time as we unconsciously slump down to reach the > dishes and after a bit, our lower backs are killing us. My work benches > in the shop, however, are at a level where I can stand in front of the > vise and file away without my back hurting. An older machinist told me > that the comfortable height for a workbench was measuring by holding > your elbows at your sides and extending your hands outward and whatever > the height of your forearms when held level, that was the proper height > for YOUR bench. Hope this helps. I'm in the process of designing and building new benches for my shop. I just finished my vise bench, and did that exact trick. I've only used it a handful of times, but already I can feel the difference. Man, I wish I'd done this years ago. Tom ------- Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 20:53:35 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Shop Space. WAS: New to shapers - which one to get? [SEE REST OF DISCUSSION IN Shaper Comparisons file] In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "Ray Ethridge" wrote: >I am not sure what you mean by the 6-7" cube, but one > of the keys is to have the machines share the "operator" area for a home > shop. My mill, my two lathes and my bandsaw all open to the same > basic area for operating them. If there were more people in the shop > this of course would not work, but for a one man shop I think there > is a great space saving by running multiple machines from > the same area. Ray Ethridge I agree with Ray about sharing operator space. My shop is in a two car garage, and is totally filled with both metal and wood working equipment, amongst other "trash and garbage" as my wife would be wont to call it. Shared operator space is the ONLY way I can use my tools. Basically, I can access my tools via three length- wise "paths" to individual tool clusters. For example, in one such cluster I have a Logan/MW-10 lathe with behind its shared operator's space (in the aisle/path 180 degrees to the operator's rear) a Lewis- 10 shaper nestled side-by-side to a Ta-Fu-Yuan R8 Rusnok-style Bench mill. Butt to butt to these two machines, and in the next aisle/path over, is a Barker PM horizontal mill. And so it is, throughout the shop, machine tool clusters of back-to- back "squares", accessed by paths which also double as shared operator space. The next cluster over, for example, has a Benchmaster horizontal mill butted up against a Barnes 4-1/2 velocipede type c. 1890 lathe (undergoing re-building) and immediately across the aisle/pathway a Lewis horizontal mill. And so it goes--path by path, cluster by cluster. Some of the major wood working equipment--amongst them two table saws and a jointer--are parked under work tables; they have to be rolled out to the driveway (= advance planning) for utilization. I have, however, a partly accessible radial arm saw and a compound miter saw that can be directly utilized: just can't rip long boards. Other machinery is clustered--drill presses and band saws and sanders and a wood lathe and.... Welding equipment, while inside (except for the acetylene), is used outside and is accessed thru a side doorway in which the shop's window air conditioner is also mounted. Gotta use all of the space available. As one can readily comprehend, mine is not an OSHA shop--never would be one anyway what with the 1940's style unprotected belts and pullies and shafts whipping about here and there...every which where. It is, however, a one-man shop: MINE. Don't enter when I'm working or one of my 'chines will get ya...if Shirley the shop dawg ain't got'cha first. Stay out of harms way...out of the eye of my storm. While this seemingly nightmarish chaos works for me, for most folks it would be total disaster: an accident looking for a place to happen. (Don't do it like I do it unless you've got bats in the bellfry (sp?) like me...or a rookery of crows like Ray has (raises) to feed his pet itinerant Mexican undocumented eagles...or the weekly crafts show vistors atop Chappell Hill. The latter have been known to remark: "Gosh that's real tasty Tejas midget turkey that Ray nukes! A bit on the smallish side, but all dark meat and served on a stick carved from still smoldering native mesquite. Yummy!!" Now you know why Ray has a crows nest atop his antenna tower. :-) ) Art (Cluster-mania in Houston North) ------- Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 17:36:17 -0500 From: Mike M Fendley Subject: Re: Shop Space. Shop space? Not trying to "one up Art" (you couldn't do that anyway) but my shop is a shared operator space machine shop too . . . mine is in a school bus! It was the wife's idea making the shop easier to move when we moved. (Little did I know she also realized a bus does have limitations . . . you can only get so much in!) I have one aisle (down the center of course) but have as many as 3 guys working in the bus at a time, usually high school kids machining a project. The bus is driveable but it takes about a week to even get it ready to move. Power company disconnects power from the pole (bus has it's own meter), underground gas line for heat must be disconnected, plus the phone line, etc. Port side of the bus from driver's seat back is: electronics test bench and bolt/small parts storage; stacked tool cabinet with hand and air tools; large floor-mounted grinder 12x2 wheels and 3HP; variable speed drill press with interchangeable table setups; oxy-acet tanks; welding table with an arbor press at one end and a 5" Wilton machine vise at the other that doubles as the vise for a homemade 2hp abrasive cutoff saw (Smith electric welder underneath); large 2 stage air compressor running air down both sides of the bus; crane that swings out to lift heavy stuff in through the back door of the bus and swings out of the way during normal bus usage. Starboard side: Solvent washer; Rockwell 6x12 surface grinder (soon to be replaced by a Bridgeport 8x15 grinder) homemade 17" power hacksaw (slides out into bus aisle to cut long pieces then slides back out of the way between the surface grinder and the; 8" Logan Shaper (soon to be replaced by a 10" no name universal shaper with clutch); Alexander horiz/vert. milling machine (think Deckel F1); shop vac; small 20,000btu furnace (keeps bus at 72 degrees in -30 degree weather); custom made cabinet that fits over the wheel well (can't put machine tools on top of a curved surface) that has 4 columns and 7 rows of drawers. Top drawer is 1" deep, progressively getting larger to the bottom drawers that are 10" deep. Beautifully made by a friend in 34 hours. I made him a woodworking lathe in exchange that could swing 2 feet and 10 feet between centers! . . . only took me 3 years to build; small stock 5 drawer storage; 12x40 Jet lathe with many attachments. Bus is 8 feet wide and 35 feet long. You can stuff a lot in a bus. Just make sure you're not over 6' tall! Key is to get out your graph paper, draw up the walls, make the outlines of each tools (plus operator's space) and start arranging them in your grid. (Wife's idea again.) You can rearrange and come up with an arrangement that will work for you. (Now if I can just find a double deck British bus I can put the wood shop upstairs!) Mike Fendley, LeClaire, Iowa ------- Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 15:54:55 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: The Olde Gray Bus...She Ain't What She Used To Be... Mike--A while back I remember seeing a CAD drawing you made of your bus- shop layout. Is it still posted at http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox along with the PICs you sent me a zillion eons ago?? A bus as a shop is a SUPER-FANTABULOUS idea. I don't know what it would take to convince local zoning authorities to believe it was not a ded vehicle but, instead, a legal building...some sort of camouflage facade perhaps? (Probably not in Central Georgia though, right Terry?) Several years ago, when Mike first showed me PICs of some of his internal shop-bus tool clusters, I was (and still am) totally inveigled with the possibilities for using such a bus as a shop...or a couple two-three of 'em co-mingled into a super "cluster- bus" configuration. I don't know what the going rate for used school buses is--without an engine they're just scrap on wheels not yet hauled to the junk yard. Can they be readily moved as "trailers"??? I even went so far as to go to a K-mart (still had one in Houston at the time) and purchased a number of Hot Wheels school buses--and several "lidded" Brit doubles--just to visually play with the possibilities of arrangement: side-by-side & stacked & even partially buried at an angle in the ground like the famous Texas highway art display of ded Cadillacs is so disposed. One at an angle--with interior stairs & slide--could it be a shop office/library? Maybe even a rookery for crows...atop a hill in south central Tejas? Several years ago, in the Wall Street Journal, there was a front-page discussion of the huge excess number of truck-trailer size ocean cargo containers--you know, the ones like the ones parked behind all of the Wallie Marts NLT Easter time each year filled with next Xmas' Chingolese manufactured goodies. The Journal story related how it was cheaper to just discard these containers here after use on the China Clippers than to return them--EMPTY--to the Pacific ports of origin. It related how huge stacks of these containers were piling up at all of our ports. It also told of how some people were converting these containers into all sorts of innovative buildings-- stacked & angled & welded together with holes & doorways & window ports cut where ever an acetylene torch could be gotten to. I wonder how much these containers cost...and how much it costs to move them? (Interestingly...I just remembered...40 years ago with the 1st Cav on the DMZ in Frozen Chosen...just below the Imjin Gang River...the 1st Battalion, 21st Field Artillery (105mm towed), had its battalion fire direction and operations center in two semi-trailers revetted next to the gun emplacements on a drained rice paddy. Slicker than winter kimchi...in the mooooooor-ning...when your house boy awakens you by the breath that his breakfast of such caused.) The special trucks that regularly cart these containers--across America to Wallie Mart after Wallie Mart--are as ubiquitous as the Wallies they serve. Hmmmhhh?? Maybe a new business for Wallies...one way containers and then sold locally for "agricultural" storage purposes?? Would really PO all of the rural steel building and Quonset hut sales folks. (There's gotta be an "angle" here...somewhere. If Billy Sol Estes could....) If I only had the land...where the deer and the antelope (still) roam, and.... Art (In Houston North...avidly at play on my floor-ruggie (with Shirley my "vicious" shop-mutt in ready attendance)--the floor-ruggie with all the printed streets and buidings...moving hither and thither my "fleet" of Hot Wheels buses. And dreaming.) ------- Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 11:17:07 -0500 From: "Ray Ethridge" Subject: Re: The Olde Gray Bus...She Ain't What She Used To Be... Art, yes the cargo containers are nice. I have a 8'6" x 48 foot one I had delivered out here, the total cost was $2200, plus the two days (and two broken jacks, a bent tool bar on my tractor plus some torn up fence posts) it took three guys to move it an additional 300 feet past where the truck driver dropped it off. I couldn't begin to tell you how many times I buried my 85 horsepower tractor moving that thing! Those things weigh about like two 24 inch Rockford hydraulic shapers and are far more difficult to move! Ray Ethridge ------- Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 22:52:55 -0000 From: "JimSr" Subject: Re: The Olde Gray Bus...She Ain't What She Used To Be... I have a overseas shipping container for a shop. It is an ex freezer container, so it is well insulated and is 8' x 8' x 40'. I know someone who has put two of these together. Mine has stainless steel walls. They weren't as plentiful when I bought mine and I paid $3,000 including painting it and delivery. They off loaded mine nearly where I wanted it. I had to jockey it around a little to get it exactly where I wanted it. I sat it on 2 pieces of 10" channel iron 10' long, one on each end. I made and adapter to go in the slots on the ends to lift it with my a 20 ton jack. I leveled it up with 8" x 8" shims whatever thickness I needed. It has been sitting there for over five years and I just the other day leveled it up for the first time since setting it in it's spot. It is great and since it is so well insulated it is easy to heat and air condition. If I had it to do over again and since they now have larger units I would have got the largest one I could and especially a taller one. Mine is like about 84" high inside and that limits some pieces of machinery out. It is still a work in progress and I have been slow on the progress. I just put a 100 amp electric service in it last year. Before that I was running off from a #10-3 extension cable but only 120V. But now I have 230V single phase power... I am still using temporary lighting...haha... I have 4 8" two tube fluorescent fixtures bought and installing them will be my next project in there...haha... It seems that being retarded, oops I meant retired and seventy some years old the things I used to do in a day now take me a week or more and so on... It makes a great shop!!! I hope I get everything finished before passing on to Glory Land...haha. JimSr ------- Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 17:57:21 -0000 From: "metalchipster" Subject: Re: The Olde Gray Bus...She Ain't What She Used To Be... Art Sed and Axed: > A bus as a shop is a SUPER-FANTABULOUS idea. I don't know what it > would take to convince local zoning authorities to believe it was not > a ded vehicle but, instead, a legal building...some sort of > camouflage facade perhaps? (Probably not in Central Georgia though, > right Terry?) You be rite 'bout that Art! Our county was annexed into "Metro Atlanta" this year. So, like every other county in Metro Atlanta has done, the county commissioners decided they had to control everything that goes on with everyone's property. No more chain hoists hanging from tree limbs (putting the shade-tree mechanics right outa business), no loaded flatbed trailers sitting around (I'm still in discussion with them 'bout this one), no buildings of any type (dwelling, storage, garage, shop, etc) on residentially-zoned property that does not have at least a 4 in 12 pitch (they say this is to keep the trailer trash out of the county). The pitch rule itself prohibits school buses and cargo containers. I was looking at buying a couple of cargo containers for storage last year. It would have cost $5,000.00 for both (delivered). A friend of mine had a huge one set up behind his house on concrete blocks. It cost him $3,000.00 delivered and set up. Before I followed through with purchasing my containers, the zoning people made my friend move his or face criminal (not civil) charges. It cost him $1,500.00 to have it removed and part of the deal was that the company that moved the container got to keep it. The really sad thing is that we both live in a rural area (but not for long) and his house (and the container) was right in the middle of his 90 acres. The only way anyone other than an invited guest to his home (or a snoopy zoning officer) would have seen his "container" was from the air. This happened BEFORE the new zoning laws went into effect. Anyway, for me, that put an end to the idea of using shipping containers as storage. As far as school buses go, they have unlimited uses. One of my best friends in school wanted to be a doctor. When we were in junior high, his father purchased all of the materials and equipment from a deceased doctor's estate. He also purchased a very large surplus school bus and put it up on blocks in his back yard. My friend and I spent hundreds of hours in that bus performing operations on dogs, cats, other pets, calves (you name it and this guy could do it) and humans (burning off warts, stitching up cuts and other small stuff). They finally got rid of the bus when my friend flunked out of medical school (he became more interested in the girls than his medical career). Well, gotta go, gotta get the chain hoist outta the big oak tree in the front yard. Never know 'round here when the zoners 'll show up and write ya a criminal citation. Don't know what I'm gonna do with that big ole metal shaper hanging from it. It won't fit in the shop. I guess I can put it on the bottom of my swimming pool. I gotta drain the water out of the pool anyway. Ya can't have standing water in your yard in this county don't ya know (new zoning law). Terry ------- Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 20:01:50 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: The Olde Gray Bus...She Ain't What She Used To Be... I have seen a fishing lodge made out of two shipping containers, each with a pitched roof added to make it look more like a conventional building. Worked very well...the roof extended past the end to make a small porch. The container doors on the end opened out all the way around to the side when occupied, leaving an ordinary door and window exposed, but when shut up it was secure against all but the best equipped vandal. There would of course be extra cost in adding the pitched roof, but it could still work out quite a good approach overall. It certainly suited the fishing club since they needed a vandal resistant approach...their last club had been burnt down...but since it is on conservation land it had to look reasonable too. regards John ------- Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 01:32:39 -0000 From: "JimSr" Subject: Re: The Olde Gray Bus...She Ain't What She Used To Be... Terry that is absolutely unbelievable. It is time to run the county commissioners out on a rail with it stuck up their you know what. If I owned 90 acres and wanted a container car on it it would be there and I wouldn't ask and I won't tell you what would happen to any who tried to come on to my property to stop me or get me to move it. If WalMart can have them by the thousands without asking anybody and without paying any so called permits fees why do you suppose that is. Commissioners work for us and they can be gone by us. Get mad and get rid of those pukes!!! My lord what have we become in this country? Who said we are free? We had better wake up and bind down our government by the chains of the Constitution. It is time to rise up and be heard. Are we already too late??? WE THE PEOPLE are the sovereigns here. This government was created by us and WE THE PEOPLE are the power. OR after reading what I just read herein I wonder how we can go around the world representing ourselves as the land of the free and the home of the brave and a country republic??? Or am I that far off base in my thinking? Am I living in the dark? Do I have my head stuck in the sand? My lord Terry tell me that what you are saying is untrue. JimSr ------- Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 18:17:34 -0000 From: "metalchipster" Subject: Re: The Olde Gray Bus...She Ain't What She Used To Be... John, I think this is a great idea. The conventional-building look might even work in this county. It depends on what is considered a permanent structure. To get some clarification of our new zoning codes, I contacted our zoning administrator and asked him specifically about cargo containers and school buses (thinking that they would be prohibited due to the new 4 in 12 pitch roof requirements reported last week in the newspaper). He informed me that the 4 in 12 pitch roof requirement would not affect cargo containers or school buses because the requirement is NOT a county ordinance. It was printed in the local newspaper as a new ordinance but was actually just a recommendation. So, it is not yet in effect. However, he did say that school buses are not allowed on residential property unless they are fully licensed and driveable as a motor vehicle and are not supplied with an outside electrical source. They also must be moved periodically to show that they are fully driveable. There is one exception to this rule. See below. He also said that cargo containers are not allowed on residential property unless they are under 200 square feet of floor space. If they are under 200 square feet then they are allowed but they must be located so that they are out of view from any public access roadway and/or the resident's private driveway. My friend's cargo container contained more than 200 square feet so that is why he had to remove it from his property. There is one exception to this 200 square feet rule. See below. The EXCEPTION to the rules above are that both school buses (and other non-operating motor vehicles) and cargo containers of any size ARE ALLOWED on residential property PROVIDED they are fully enclosed within the confines of a permanent structure. Well, if you've got to build a permanent structure to put these things in then you might as well just use the structure itself for storage. Unless, of course, the school bus or cargo container provides added value (insulation, security, portability, etc.). Terry ------- Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 13:22:08 -0000 From: "clive603" Subject: Re: it's on order I'm a great believer in using modified filing cabinets to support modestly sized machine tools and provide loads of protected storage beneath. My Taig sits on a bench top 25" x 55" made from a cut down desk top supported by a triplet of three drawer filing cabinet assemblies. These started out as four drawer units, removing the bottom drawer put the bench top at just the right height. Three drawer ones would be a bit high I think unless you removed the plinth. Bolt the cabinets together and fit some sort of foot on the bottom edges to stop them burrowing into the floor. For a really solid stand. I welded some inch square tube onto the bottom 'cos I had a load but there are many other satisfactory ways, use what you have. The drawers have nice runners and a good load capacity which is nice but, typically are only half height. I either extend the sides or fit lift out trays depending on what I want to put in them. Two wide would probably be enough for a Taig and computer. Best way to obtain cabinets is when the firm is having a clear out. I got loads (20!) free on a "take 'em away basis" as it saved the price of a skip [dumpster rental]! Having a surplus provided plenty of metal for lift out trays too, cutting down extra drawersis the easy way! If you have to buy remember that used office furniture suppliers frequently have to take away stuff that is not really good enough to sell when they clear offices. Plenty good enough for a workshop tho', ask nicely and you should get some bargains. Another possibility is to convert what are called in the UK "Mobile Work Carts". Basically two door cupboards on wheels. Made from plastic but very strong if you push tight fitting wooden battens down the hollow sections and bolt the shelves & back in place. Substitute a bit of kitchen worktop for the plastic top. B&Q in the UK sell one made by Krieter for about £45 but I suspect this sort of thing can be found all over the world. One should be about right for a Taig. Two did very nicely under a SouthBend 9" lathe. HTH. Clive ------- Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 12:52:17 EDT From: wanlikerx~xxaol.com Subject: Lathe alignment One factor not mentioned is how the Sherline lathe is mounted, if on a warped board, it can twist, or curve the bed, and this will throw things out of alignment. A cheap Chinese Surface Plate from Emco or other discount tool place makes a wonderful stable, but heavy mount for a Sherline lathe or mill, and it will not be changing overtime the humidity changes. Try to catch them on sale or free shipping.... Mark the mounting holes, use a carbide bit to drill holes large enough for a threaded insert, epoxy it into place. Then, draw file the inserts to be sure there is nothing above the surface. Once you have the lathe mounted you can use a dial indicator to see if any shims are required under a mount point to correct the bed, until it is complete flat in every direction. Also before mounting the lathe, check the mounting points, on the underside of the bed for any high spots or burrs, draw filing will work nicely. The lathe must also be flat on the bottom if errors of alignment are not going to be induced by mounting it on a flat surface. In large lathes there is a great deal of effort put into mounting the lathe, so there is no twist, or bow in the bed, either convex, or concave. With any bed misalignment the accuracy of the machine will be gone...or at the least, greatly compromised. The very first steps for accuracy in a lathe is: - Check the alignment of your bed mounts. - Mount it so there is no distortion induced into the lathe, unless it is correcting previous distortions. - Mount it on something that is stable. bill CCED ------- Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 17:30:40 EDT From: wanlikerx~xxaol.com Subject: Check out Workshop tips - Index Workshop tips: http://www.bhi.co.uk/hints/index.htm This is a clock site, but there are also a lot of things that would help a modelmaker, or a machinist,,,,such as a BA thread chart, gravers, plus a lot more. bill ------- Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:08:54 -0400 From: Ronald Thibault Subject: Re: ? on how sturdy a table is needed for 10" Atlas At 10:35 PM 9/23/2003 +0000, you wrote: >I have an old cast iron drafting table that I could use for a base on >my Atlas 10". BUT I'm not sure that it would be heavy enough. It is >large enough, about 5 foot wide and over 2 feet deep. It weighs over >100 Lbs and with a good solid wood top would be closer to 200 Lbs. No >drawer space but I could make some. Iron uprights and cross pieces >all bolt together with large bolts and a wooden table is to be bolted >onto the top. I never had the opportunity to see an original Atlas >table up close to see how sturdy they are. Only am familiar with how >Atlas says a table should be. I really don't want to make a large >table out of lumber. If anyone is familiar or had suggestions, if >possible also reply to my email to amke sure I get your suggestions. >Thanks, mdmltx~xxaol.com My bench is an old steel office desk, with the legs replaced by cinder blocks. My present lathe is the third one I've had on the desk. I have a short article on it in the Atlas section of my Web site (address below). Ron Thibault Warrenville, SC USA http://personal.atl.bellsouth.net/t/h/thib9564/ ------- Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 16:41:48 -0700 From: k6sufx~xxdirecway.com Subject: Re: Swarf cleanup [Metal_Shapers] Hi All: turning a bit cooler now so went out to the shed and cleaned up a bit. Any good ideas out there for cleaning up swarf and junk? I have gone through two shop vac hoses from getting leaky by drawing chips through them. I turn aluminum, brass, bronze, steel and cast iron (I know about the stunt with CI of a magnet in a sock). Of course some of the swarf is oily and some is dry, some long curls and some fine shavings. My lathe is on a sheet metal tray with about 1-1/2 inches deep with the walls close to the front. Have tried shop vac, brushs of various kinds and seem to spend more time in clean up than in working on projects. (Another good reason not to search for special colors to paint things.) John Meacham High desert of California, and a sloppy worker too. ------- Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 20:01:06 -0400 From: "S or J" Subject: Re: Swarf cleanup Hi John, same problem everywhere. I took advantage of some of the other folks' workshop ideas covered in more detail in the file "Workshop Tips" on the site Machining and Metalworking at Home found at http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ Essentially I try to strategically place tempered hardboard sheets to redirect stuff that misses the chip tray. An old-fashioned rough bristle- broom and dustpan is used on a fairly regular basis to gather the worst of the sharp, curly stuff that made it to the floor. The shop vac is used only to remove the tiny bits that are left. Incidentally John, your fine advice on many subjects appears in various files there. Thanks for your frequent help to others on these metal groups. Steve -- in Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada ------- Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 10:21:09 -0400 From: "Ron Ginger" Subject: Re: IR temperature measuring devices Be very cautious with the readings from these IR temp devices- they are measuring the IR Reflectivity, not really the surface temp. To see the results try a little experiment- find a desk lamp with a metal shade that is painted white inside and black outside. Let it warm up from the light bulb, then measure the inside and outside temps- you will find a large difference, when the thin metal shade is obviously the same temp on both sides. I was measuring outside temp of the boiler of the narrow gauge RR and can see a difference between the black boiler shell and the gold numbers painted on the boiler. I first found it when measuring the temp around my home boiler - I saw a large diff between the copper pipe and the cast iron pumps. The IR temp measuring gadgets are neat, but don't believe everything you see. ron ginger ------- Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 15:01:11 -0000 From: "mmurray701" Subject: Re: IR temperature measuring devices Yeah they are off a little on shiny surfaces. A small square of black "electrical" tape will give you a good reading with the IR gadgets. ------- Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 15:34:06 -0000 From: "Peter Verbree" Subject: Re: shop temperature Hi Lee: I live in Northern Ontario, Canada, so my situation is very much like yours. I tried the unheated shop thing the first year I lived here. It didn't work very well. Even with the wood stove glowing red hot I could only use my machines after a couple of hours of warm-up. Condensation was a very big problem as well. I ended up oiling up everything and waiting for spring. (It was a long winter.) 3 years ago I bit the bullet and insulated the shop, and now run a small electric heater to keep the temp above freezing( 35*-40*f) I go in the shop now and in 15-20 min I get every thing warn enough to use (still heated with wood stove). Sometimes it gets too warm. I suggest you preserve it well and wait for spring, or move it somewhere where you can at least keep it above freezing. Just My $.02 Pete, In the great white north ------- Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 16:18:55 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: shop temperature Pete-- Glowing red wood stoves...and of fond memories of wintery days at my uncle's farm...just outside of Avilla...and a bit further north west of Fort Wayne. A section north, my great-grandfather had built his farm, and raised a family, upon his return as a wounded vet, a volunteer with an Ohio Infantry Regiment, a survivor of a prisoner camp of the war between the states. In the central room, of my uncle's mid-1800's two story brick farmhouse, stood this monstrous (to me in my youth) cast iron pot-belly stove that too glowed red in darkening afternoons as the wind whistled about the eaves. What a magical beast it was. Fed corn cobs to get it going, and split oak and hickory from the woods back by the Interurban line that dad, in the twenties, used to hop on in Fort Wayne and, in very short time, sped electrically to the pathway that led thru the cornstalks to my uncle's house...and Mr Pot-Belly. Often, as if secretly beckoned, I would stand before its mouth and attempt to peer deep within as the flames danced behind its eissen-glass eyes in reddish-orange glow. Long ago... in days of auld lang syne. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 21:17:44 -0000 From: "stevenson_engineers" Subject: Re: Heating for the workshop "yrrab57" wrote: > Any way, here in Britain it gets cold in the winter, not very cold > just down to about zero centigrade most times, but it is damp as well. > I have a shed in the garden which is my workshop and already I can > see that some of my valuable tools are starting to go, rusty. > What is the most economical way to prevent this? Probably an oil filled electric radiator. You just need to keep a temperature just above freezing to stop rust. Whatever you do don't go for a bottled gas heater, these give out their own weight of gas as water vapour. Fan heaters also work but tend to run away with the pennies a bit. John S. ------- Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 20:54:31 -0800 From: "Carol & Jerry Jankura" Subject: RE: Heating for the workshop You might shop around the various shops and buy some Boeshield T-9 and spray it on the tools in your shop. It's a good rust preventative spray. Jerry ------- Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 15:10:00 -0600 From: "fl.lusen" Subject: RE: Gooseneck Lamps [POSTED TO Metal_Shapers GROUP] [TASK LIGHTING FOR A MACHINE] I do not know if it would fit your needs but Sears has a Detail Work Light #923499. It has an 18" goose neck and a 71 1/2" cord with an on/off switch. There are two different mounts. A permanent one and a clamp one. It takes a 40w type B bulb. Fred in North Texas ------- Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 19:17:39 EST From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Gooseneck Lamps very common in the 30's & 40's ,in many households....i located several in flea market type second hand shops to add to the one i still had from that period ... FWIW the one on my atlas shaper is coming off & a 12 dollar chineese swing arm replacing it (msc/fleamarket).........simply want more angles & extension best wishes docn8as ------- Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 02:15:06 -0000 From: "Joe Guidry" Subject: Re: Gooseneck Lamps Don, I was able to find a lamp on an old parts washer, the same as the SB, and got the flex, several of them at yard sales, on the last Enco sale book there are two lamps that look like to old SB, I posted a pic on the Shaper pic group page of the one I just put on mine. good luck, Joe Guidry ------- Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 04:07:31 -0000 From: "jpkull" Subject: Re: Gooseneck Lamps Look at McMaster-Carr item #1606K11. It's almost identical to the original SB lamp. I used two of these on my mill. Very nice. Jim ------- oldtools digest Subject: A bench update tale From: "Ken Greenberg" Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 18:16:57 -0800 One of the projects that I have been postponing for a good long time is a couple of updates to my bench. I built it about five years ago (I think) with just the single vise on the side, but always with the intention of adding a tail vise "someday." At the same time, I decided to add end caps. I was able to score a mahogany 2 x 4 at a now-defunct local wood store at a good price, and half of it is assigned to be the end caps. I did the easy one first, allowing me to re-install the Tom Holloway end planing stop for the first time in the new shop. Never worked right (or for long) because it was screwed into end grain. Now with the end cap, it seems much more secure. On to the hard bit - the tail vise. Santa had delivered tail vise hardware last year, and one reason for scheduling the project now was that we don't want Santa to feel that gifts just sit under the bench forever. Best to get it installed before his next visit, I figured, or there might not be more stuff coming from the North Pole (or wherever Lee Valley is located). So I dig out the Workbench Book and decide that the design used for the very similar tail vise hardware on Michael Fortune's bench ought to be about right. Besides, he's a nice guy. Anyway, I made the core box out of some scrap oak (easier to understand if you have the book) and managed to make everything fit. Milled a two- inch wide board out of a piece of firewood (madrone) as being the only stuff in the shop wide enough for dogholes. Lots of scrub plane work there. All fit together properly in very little time, and on to cutting off a corner of my bench. This actually worked pretty well with just a couple of Disstons (rip and crosscut) although I resorted to 'lectric power for cutting through the threaded rod. Not about to risk any good handsaws here. I never was able to get the rods out after using them as extra clamps during assembly, and the end of this one was just in the way. No problem, and I was really careful to avoid cutting through the leg supporting the bench, now wishing to pull an O'deen here (see Workmutt threads). Uh oh. See what's coming here? Yeah, me neither five years ago. The bench is supported by two leg assemblies made of 3 x 3 scrap, and one of them is right where the vise has to go. The vise is about four inches thick, the benchtop is about 2 1/4, and there's no way the vise and the leg can coexist in the same space. I go back and look at the pictures in the book, and sure enough the tail vise end of this bench is supposed to be a long way from the support leg. Sigh. OK, I consider my options carefully and decide the only practical solution (the benchtop stretcher being in the shop for repairs) is to make the leg assembly shorter. So I take everything off the bench, wait for my wife to show up and give me a hand getting the top off base - it's pretty heavy with the existing vise. I then take the bench apart and cut about seven inches off the stretchers, making new tenons. The other bad news is that the bench has a back for added stiffness, consisting of four tongue and groove boards screwed into the legs and carefully cut out around the top and bottom part of the leg assemblies. Of course, these need to be seven inches shorter as well, with new cutouts on one end. Added some interest to the repairs, and produced a little much appreciated kindling. I got the base back together and convinced my wife to once again help me get the benchtop back on the base. Of course, I had to drill new holes in the bottom of the base to allow for the locating dowels that keep the top from sliding around. The good news is that I never made any decent under-bench storage as yet. If I had built-in drawers and such, I would have seriously thought about making a new bench top instead. This was all last weekend, and today I finally managed to get the vise assembly installed. Not quite finished, as I'm waiting for the glue to dry on the top of the vise box before attaching the doghole part. A few other small steps like drilling holes, but I'm feeling good about this right now. Of course, I started with a totally clean benchtop this weekend since it was on its side on the floor. Thus anything on top of the benchtop now has to do with installing the vise hardware (except one sheet of sandpaper from another finishing job). There's a few tools that got used in mounting it: http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/tailvise.jpg Of course, I could have used one brace to drive in the mounting screws and to drill the hole for the large mounting bolt (about a one inch center bit worked best) but where's the fun in that? I mean, if you're going to go around changing bits, you might as well not even own multiple braces, I figure. I really did use every tool on the bench on this job, and I'm not even finished yet. I am feeling pretty chagrined at not having planned this better five years ago. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry when I saw what I was going to need to do to get out of this little jam. So much for planning ahead. -Ken Ken Greenberg (kenx~xxcalast.com) 667 Brush Creek Road, Santa Rosa, CA 95404 woodworking page: http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/wood.htm ------- Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 10:34:45 -0000 From: "Ernest Lear" Subject: Re: OT, but only just. I live in the wet part of England in the SW. And I never measured how much rain a year but we get a lot. I just keep the tempature up to 45-50F with the aid of two 250W greenhouse electric heaters switch on 24 hours a day in the cold wet weeks of the year. I always clean down my lathe and oil all exposed bare machined surfaces after each time I finish using it. I do not have a problem with rust. But I keep an eye open all the time and take action if needed, but up to now all is dry and rust free within my little workshop. Regards Ernest ------- Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 11:57:17 +0000 From: "Del Stanton" Subject: RE: Re: Mounting 2019 mill In taigtoolsx~xxyahoogroups.com, "Jim Stoll" wrote: > I'm anxiously awaiting the arrival of my new 2019 mill (which will be > immediately setup for stepper-based CNC - so I need to consider the > room needed for the mounts, motors, cranks, etc). I'm lookingaround > at various places in my house (ok, well, the garage amd basement at > least... ;-) to set this thing up when it arrives. What kind of > things should I consider in selecting a place and a surface to mount > it? Clearly, it'll spit metal bits everywhere, so that part istaken > into consideration (but how large an area will it spew on?) - how > about things like work area height (of the mounting surface), width, > depth, head room (for the Z-axis/stepper and spindle - it's > conceivable that I might mount it under an overhead cabinet if nobody > comes up w/ strong suggestions to the contrary). How about the > beefiness of the mounting area? I have laminate countertops in my > basement workroom - would bolting it to something like that be > sufficient? Any other thoughts or suggestions? Thanks! Jim With regard to spitting metal: If you working with Aluminum or Brass you will surely want to use a fly cutter to cut flat surfaces. ( I have never used such a cutter with any sort of Steel. ) If you do use one, a fly cutter will spit metal all over the place. A simple, if inelegant, solution: Take a good sized corrugated cardboard carton and cut off the top flaps and cut out the bottom so you can set it down over your milll. The top edge of this "enclosure" should be 4 or 5 inches above the mill's table. It will contain the chips so they can be readily vacuumed up. Now, only if most shop vacs were not so insanely noisy! Del Stanton Wannabee Taig CNC Mill Owner ------- Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 02:10:34 -0000 From: "Dan Hogsett" Subject: Re: Mounting 2019 mill I mounted my mill to a pice of 5' laminate countertop I bought from Lowes for about $20.00. I built a sturdy wooden frame for the countertop. On the countertop, I used perforated angle and 1/4" acrylic to build an enclosure. The enclosure is 2' tall with an open top and surrounds the entire countertop. I used piano hinges for holding the door. If you build an enclosure, be careful when drilling the acrylic because it will crack very easily. Use either a bit designed for this or use a very dull drill bit. A dull drill bit will essentially melt it's way through without splitting the acrylic. Hope this helps. Dan ------- Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 09:16:07 -0500 From: Ken Jenkins Subject: Re: Enclosure materials Instead of using Acrylic use LEXAN (polycarbonate). It is more expensive but machines much easier, and is highly resistant to cracking and shattering. You can use thinner sheets than you would with Acrylic so that might offset the additional cost and reduce weight to boot. Ken Jenkins ------- Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 20:56:06 -1000 (HST) From: benedictx~xxhawaii.rr.com Subject: Re: New to this - how to clean up... > At 08:22 PM 4/3/2004, you wrote: > >Sorry if this is a really stupid question, but I'm totally new to > >this kind of metal work. > >Currently my mill shares the side of the garage with my kids bikes, > >toys, etc. I will be looking into an enclosure soon, but for now I > >have aluminum everywhere. I'm just wondering what is the best way > >to clean this stuff up? I haven't used any coolant to cut yet so > >they are all dry. Is there any reason not to just use the shop vac > >to clean everything else up? I also heard that aluminum can ignite > >and burn just like iron filings. What sort of precautions should I > >take? Thanks! Dave. On Sat, 3 Apr 2004, Scott A. Stephens wrote: > Just vacuum it up. The ignition your talking about happens when it is > hot. Since your stuff is on the floor an cold it should prove me problem. I'll second that. Even when you're using coolant, a decent shop vac will suck it all up just fine. Like Scott said, though, I definitely wouldn't position the shop vac to pick up the chips as they come off the tool. If you're using profuse amounts of coolant this may not be a problem (so long as you've got a wet/dry shop vac). But dry chips come off plenty hot and could ignite dust and stuff inside the shop vac if you're pulling them right off the tool. Just wait 'till you start cutting steel! Tom ------- Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 00:54:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Art Volz Subject: Shop Trailer Construction Details Here are some of the details concerning the shop trailer's construction: The shop trailer is 16 feet long and custom built with a welded square steel tube frame, dual axles, torsion springs, mag wheels, and is rated for 7500 pounds. It has a pressure treated 3/4 inch plywood floor over which maple tongue and groove 3-inch wide boards were installed giving a total floor thickness of 1-1/2 inches. All of the machines are through bolted in such manner that leveling is still possible. The trailer has not yet had overhead lighting or power receptacles built in, but that is next on the agenda. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 13:36:42 -0400 From: rammercx~xxwebtv.net Subject: Re: Shop Trailer Construction Details Art is describing my trailer. I am a pack rat and had picked up a number of machines but was keeping them in my shop at work. My garage is full of antique and classic outboards another hobby with barely enough room for my old Drummond M lathe. When forced to remove my machines at work I had a serious problem. One, I can't bring myself to part with much and two, they gave me too short a notice to build anything. Several members in our Antique Outboard Club are bringing trailers to shows to house their collections. They are getting more and more elaborate every year. If it works for outboards why not machine tools. I picked a color scheme to match my green top mercurys, emerald green and Alu diamond plate. The floor I needed to reinforce to handle the weight. I had Odells a local manufacturer here in St Pete build it for me. The biggest problem was clearing out an area in the jungle I call my back yard to park it in. I also have a block wall around my property in the rear and had to remove enough to back it in. We have fairly strict code enforcement here so it must look like it is mobile but I have six screw jacks under the frame leveling and supporting it. The best part is if I move or build a shop after retirement, I now have a great trailer for my outboard display. I did position my mills and shapers so they can be operated, I just need to find the time to get it properly wired. Of course with some of my little hand operated machines all I need is a fan and an ample supply of cold brews to deal with the heat here in Florida. Wherever there is a will, there is a way --- Rick M in St. Pete. ------- Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 21:45:52 -0000 From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: Legendary Shop Bus...of Legendary Von Dutch First, the legendary Von Dutch and an intro to his legendary shop bus: http://www.letterhead.com/articles/bob_burns/vondutch Second, the legendary shop bus of Von Dutch: http://www.mrsharkey.com/busbarn/vondutch/vondutch.htm I've read other magazine articles over the years (mainly in 'cycle mags) describing some of the tools Von Dutch had inside his shop bus-- there was a lathe and a mill mentioned, but I forget what kind they were, and what other kind of machines he had. Anyone have any further info? Someone needs to save and restore that bus. Now, if I was living in Califlowernia, I.... Art (Houston) ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following general ideas about machine cabinets resulted during a short thread about mounting a particular shaper (discussion in the Shaper General file in June 2004); obviously the next messages are applicable to many machines of all kinds. ------- Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 22:46:50 +0100 From: Clive Foster Subject: Re: Height of South Bend 7" shaper cabinet? Reid, I use drawer type filing cabinets a lot for mounting Home Shop size machines and reckon they are very hard to beat especially if you are willing to put in a bit of modification work. I use them in 2, 3 or modified 2 & 1/2 drawer height depending on the machine they are for, usually cutting down from 4 drawer ones as these are much more common in good condition from the "Free if You Take Them Away" store. If I'm doing a 2 or 3 drawer one I find it best to cut off the bottom from a 4 drawer one as required, remove the tops, bolt the requisite number together side by side and affix a new top made from good quality kitchen work-top or similar material. Get the inch & half thick stuff if the free store has it, but anything over inch is fine. The good stuff is very flat, incredibly durable (15 years and counting in a garden shed shop) and easy to clean. It also makes a nice acoustically dead base for the machine, if you use the drawer cabinet "as is" it may ring something horrible if you are unlucky. After fitting the bolted together cabinets to the new top I turn them upside down and weld angle or square tube round the inside of the base to ensure all stands firm and level. On most drawer filing cabinets (in the UK anyway) the drawer sides are only half height and there are various holes in the bottom and back to take the file holding slides. Finish the job by filling or covering the holes in the base and make a pair of lift out trays for each drawer to sit on top of the half height sides. The trays are just the job for small tools & stuff but don't be tempted to just do one long one on each drawer. Very tricky to remove and, when you have filled it, too heavy to lift. Cutting a four drawer down to two gives you two redundant drawers which easily convert into nice trays. Perhaps a bit more work than your basic open work welded up or carpentry stand but looks pretty good and stuff in the drawers stays clean. For a shaper I'd bolt two cabinets together, a bit oversize maybe but a pair are much more rigid than a single. HTH Clive ------- Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 02:05:31 -0000 From: "Joe Guidry" Subject: Re: Height of South Bend 7" shaper cabinet? Clive, right about the file cabinets, I was able to pick up several that come off the Military base they are very heavy and with limited shop space for now, not wanting to build something I cannot move, the file cabinet with the angle iron around the bottom with the caster welded to that, when I want to move and clean its a breeze, and when if ever I get the big shop finished, just lift the cabinet out of the frame and use them in the office, what a man, got it all figured out just need about 200 more years. Joe Guidry ------- Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 00:23:35 EDT From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Finding a friendly machine shop The way to find a new friend in a machine shop is to take along one of your projects. When the guys are gathered around the coffee truck bring out your little steam engine or whatever and say "I built this, but need some advice on doing so and so" Example: there was a machine shop a couple of doors down from our office at one place I worked. I had chatted with the guys when the coffee truck would come by and had brought in some bits and pieces of the locomotive I was working on at the time. When I needed an angle plate to bolt to the faceplate one time, I found a length of 4 inch heavy angle iron about two feet long in the scrap yard. I took it in the foreman that shop and asked if he could put it in his metal cutting band saw and cut off about 5 or 6 inches for me so I could make an angle plate. A couple of days later he came by my office with that angle cut and machined on all surfaces, holes for securing to my face plate and some tapped holes for hold down bars in various spots on the face. For a long time I had the most beautiful and accurate angle plate on the most junky lathe you ever saw. (I still have the angle plate, but the lathe is better now too.) John Meacham in the high desert of California 12 inch Atlas, Minimill, HF bandsaw, rusty file ------- Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 02:39:37 -0500 From: "Greg Jahnke" Subject: Re: Mounting shaper question [Metal_Shapers group] > Hi, I bought a 7inch Atlas shaper. The table that came with it was a > homemade box. It was basicaly a box made out of 3x3 inch timber > covered with 3/4 inch plywood. The prevous owner had it bolted to > the concrete floor. I never used a shaper before, so I have a few > question from you guys that have one. Congratulations. A shaper is a great thing to have. > 1. Do I need to have the base bolted to the floor? Yes and no. It will probably work without bolting it to the floor, but you may want to anyway. There is no such thing as too much mass for machine tools, and a 7" Atlas doesn't have that much mass. Bolting it to the base (asuming the base is constructed solidly) and then bolting the base to the floor will add stability to the machine. If you can't bolt it to the floor, that shouldn't be a big deal, but if you later find some strange drifting going on (and you may or may not) in your precision work, you will know why. If you can't bolt it to the floor, you might consider putting some heavy stuff in the base. I have my benchtop equipment (lathe, shaper, etc..) bolted to some stainless steel cabinets (army surplus, $35 for 5 of them) that are 6 ft long and 3 ft wide. They weigh about 300 lbs each. They are filled with my scrap metal that I use for casting (old cast itron radiator bits, railroad spikes, gears, etc.) I don't know exactly how much they weigh, but I do know you can't get them off the ground with a 3000 lb fork lift. For a little 7" shaper, this would be overkill, but you may want to store some heavy stuff in the base. > 2. I have a two door kitchen cabnet base with two drawer and 1 1/2 > inch thick formica counter top. Could I use this as a base with some > stiffing supports added? That should work fine. And store some heavy stuff in it. Have fun! ------- Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 17:03:00 -0400 From: "Ron Ginger" Subject: Re: Shop Walls [sherline group] My shop ( 22 x 48 ft) has drywall on the ceiling, painted white to help with the lighting. I ran a 1x4 pine board down the length in two places that gives me a place to hang lights from. The walls are sheathed in 1x10 horizontal ship lap boards held on with sheetrock screws. Because its ship lap and screwed I could, in theory, remove any board if I wanted to run a wire or pipe. In fact, I have hung so many cabinets and shelves and tool racks it would be a real mess to remove a board. I do like the flexibility of wood walls for hanging things. I also like my big windows and view of Pleasant Cove. I could not decide where to put a partition between the wood shop and metal shop so I made it one big room. I do have some dust on the metal side, but it's manageable. ron ginger ------- Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 12:39:27 -0400 From: tjic_yahoogroupsx~xxtjic.com Subject: Re: Shop Walls My shop is a work in progress, and I know that I don't yet know where I want most things. When I built my woodshop a few years ago I ripped one edge of PT 2x6s at a 45 degree angle, then bolted them horizontally to the cement walls up near the ceiling, with the beveled side facing up, and sloping back towards the wall. I believe that this is called a "French Cleat". I then built all of my peg board, tool cubbys, etc., with a mating cleat on the top. Now I can pick up and move any piece of storage. In some places, I've first hung a ~ 4'x4' piece of plywood which itself has more (and smaller) french cleats on it, so that I can swap out two bookshelves for one bookshelf and one medium sized piece of pegboard, etc. The various organizational bits I've hung on the walls have all been quick-and-dirty: many of them were made with scrap CDX from the library I built under which the shop is housed. Part of my goal with the cleat system was to get storage built quickly out of junk material and drywall screws on a contractor-grade table saw, and then later come back and practice cabinet-making skills by making storage I could be proud of. I'm still at the first stage: my woodshop is quite usable, but the storage looks like exactly what it is: utility grade materials and utility grade work! I'm currently framing up a metal shop in my garage (I can't stand dust on my metal tools / Dillon reloading press), and I intend to use the same french cleat system out there. TJIC ------- Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:07:39 -0500 From: "Ron Romanski" Subject: Re: Re:shop wall covering >>> I assume by ply we're talking about plywood. If so, have you seen the price of lumber lately? I shudder to think of what it will cost to plywood a 24 by 50 foot shop. I'm in the same position, trying to come up with a interior covering that isn't too expensive. However with a 24X48 foot shop with 14 foot walls plywood is way to expensive. Unless I'm shopping at the wrong places :) Mark <<< >> Brad, My choice? Ply. Why? You can cover it with sealer, paint to reflect the light, fasten anything you want. Or use floor tiles on the wall or wall tiles to make it washable, etc. Many ways to go with ply. Create your own storage with commercial hooks or hangers, etc. Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) << Mark...Sticker shock for real ... I just built a new shop and addition to our home... the wood sheet products have gone out of sight... was told because huge demand in Iraq ... QSB, just last year was about $6 a sheet, last week its $19 .... thats why I opted for drywall...still around $6 ... and some industrial strength wallpaper and lots of paint for my shop and garage...much less costly....and prettier...hehehe You can still hang cabinets using 1x4 surface strips screwed to studs. Ron R ------- Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:12:35 -0400 From: "Jerry Glickstein" Subject: Re: Re:shop wall covering Ron,Mark,Brad, I guess I was guilty of overlooking cost when I suggested ply. So, then, I go with Ron,and if I was building a new Model Shop, that is what I would use. Drywall, that is... :) Sorry, guys. Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Subject: Re: Leather, oil and tool storage [oldtools list] From: Thomas Conroy Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 10:56:03 -0700 (PDT) Tom and others: All--- I say all-- leather is unsuitable for long-term storage of metal. All vegetable-tanned leather must be slightly acid or the tannage will separate from the skin. The acidity of chrome-tanned leather has already been mentioned. In a stable temperate climate you can leave blades in leather sheaths (I have tools I use frequently that have service sheaths that have been in use indoors for twenty years) but if the air condi- tioning or heating break down, in a few days of uncontrolled cycling of temperature you will have condensation on the knife, this will become acid due to the leather, and you will have rust. Once a knife has rusted inside a sheath, cleaning the rust off the knife and putting it back inside the sheath will cause continual repetitions of the rusting because rust stains inside the sheath will hold moisture much more efficiently than the original materials. DAMHIKT. At this point I make service sheaths for my working knives by folding them out of high-grade thin cardboard and masking tape. Something about twice the weight of file folders, but file folders will do. I wrap and fold the blade so that there are three to eight layers over the edge, with a fairly loose fit, and tape the outside lightly to hold it together. Takes about five minutes. If the blade gets rusty I throw the cardboard sheath away. If some of my leather sheaths get rusty I now throw them away. I don't use plastic tape for my sheaths, and I use as little tape as possible, because plastic tape will trap moisture inside the sheath and cause rust. DAMHIKT. The point of these sheaths is to protect the edge of a knife from knocking into hard objects on the bench during use or in a drawer in short term storage. For long-term storage I will sometimes fold a strip of duck tape or other cloth tape around the edge or even wrap the whole blade in tape. I have a knife where part of the blade was wrapped in cloth tape to give a more comfortable hold; after half a century of storage in an unheated garage the exposed part of the blade was heavily corroded but the part under the tape was clean and bright. I think the adhesive kept all moisture out and preserved the steel, so I took a clue and use adhesive tape for storage. I fold over the tape about 1/16" from the edge of the knife, not right on the edge, to give a bit of physical protection as well as rust protection.No problems as of yet. Of course, if I want to use one of those knives, cleaning off the adhesive residue can be a pain. Otherwise, I tend to use a heavy coating of BLO for rust prevention on seldom-used blades. In passing, that knife that had exposed parts corroded was a dexter with sound steel under the rust; it is now one of my favorite working knives, but I slicked a DMT diamond stone getting past the corrosion. I hate to say it, but: tie the leather sheaths you made to the handles of your hatchets and keep them for short-term active use like camping trips (they will be great for that) or for periods where you are using the tool pretty often but want the edge safer between uses. Wax or oil the blades and have them out in the open. It will cause less grief in the long run. All metals may have problems sitting next to leather. Knives with brass fittings can get little waxy green spots of verdigris where they touch a sheath, though the brass doesn't seem damaged. My real pity, though, is reserved for people who put their heirloom silverware in boxes lined with leather. Almost everyone thinks that this is classy and wonderful, but I think it's a disaster waiting to happen. Tom Conroy Berkeley ------- Subject: Re: What kind of paint did they put on toolchests and how should I clean it? [Oldtools list] From: T&J Holloway Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 23:43:41 -0700 On Sunday, September 5, 2004, at 07:40 PM, Thieme wrote: > I have a toolchest that has been in my wife's family since the early > to mid 1900's. It's nothing special and needs a lot of cleaning, but > is fairly solid and I should be able to get some good use out of it. > I'd like to repaint it and was wondering if there was a particular > type of paint that they used to use on chests like this. I was > thinking I might try milk paint. Any tips or suggestions? > Here are some pics: > http://tinyurl.com/3ru26 http://tinyurl.com/6gen9 > Also, the inside of the chest is coated with a good coating of what > I'd call "rusty dirt." Any suggestions on how to clean it up are also > welcome. I'm used to cleaning rust off old tools, so getting this > stuff off of wood is new to me. Do I just go at it with Murphy's Oil > Soap? Or are there any tricks? Thanks, Jeff in Memphis Jeff--This looks like a nice old toolbox, and I think it would be a shame to repaint it--just my opinion. I think repainting this chest would basically ruin its antique-ness. That old crackled finish and use-mark dings are the real deal, and repainting would destroy it, either by covering it over or by the need to strip the old finish first, again speaking for myself. If this were my chest, for the exterior, I would mix up some mineral spirits (or turpentine, if you like the smell) and boiled linseed oil, about 2 parts thinner to 1 part BLO, and wipe the chest down liberally with the mixture on a rag. Use a tooth brush to clean out inside corners and such. Then right away wipe off any excess with another (dry) rag. After half an hour or so, rub down with yet another dry clean rag. That will clean the dust out of nooks and crannies, and "refresh" the surface, without doing invasive damage. Let it dry/cure overnight, and see what you think. If you don't like what this does for the piece, you can always repaint or strip and paint, if that's what you want to do. But once you've done either of the latter, you're never going to recover the old finish. If you want a little more of a finish after the first clean and restore operation, wipe on another thin application of the same mixture, then paste wax if you want to top it off. Or after the initial cleaning you could top off with the 1-1-1 mixture of spirits, BLO, and melted wax that has been discussed recently, but since the people at Johnsons or Butcher have already added the softeners and dryers to their paste wax product, that saves the end user all that double-boiler, oven, fire hazard, fumes, shaved bee's wax rigamarole. I would probably go at the inside first with the "round brush" tool of a shop vac (yes, burns electrons, but so do the lights) and see what effect that had on the rusty dirt. If the interior surfaces are planed (not too fuzzy/rough sawn), you can use the thinner/BLO mixture to do a similar clean-and-refresh, again using a toothbrush or similar to get in corners or on problem spots. Use the mixture liberally the first time, and wipe the dirty excess away as you go. Leave open to dry/cure. Repeat with a lighter wipe-down a couple days later, if desired. HTH Tom Holloway PS--I would be very surprised if this chest dates from anything resembling the "mid 1900's". Looks more like the "turn of the last (ie, 20th) century" to me, or even a somewhat older. ------- Subject: Re: What kind of paint did they put on toolchests and how should I clean it? From: "M.Stadulis" Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 09:44:44 -0400 Hi Jeff, Some months ago on another Board....I think WoodCentral, I came in to a thread late about the same question that you posed. An antique conservator from the UK....I think his name is Sam Simpson sent me the following verbatim wood/furniture cleaning recipe which is the one that he uses on his crusty pieces. I like Tom Holloway's suggestion of a very thinnned out coat of BLO or maybe Tung Oil after the cleaning, since the oils can be buffed out. Mike Stadulis Gloucester County, NJ American, 8 fl oz Pure turpentine 4 fl oz Denatured alcohol 2 fl oz White vinegar 1 fl oz Murphey's Oil Soap 1 fl oz Brasso 1 tea spn houshold Ammonia English 200 ml Pure Turpentine 100 ml Methylated spirits 50 ml Acetic acid B.P. (33%) 25 ml Teepol (liquid soap) 25 ml Brasso (metal polish) 5 ml Ammonia .088 ------- Subject: Re: Cleaning Boxwood Rules From: Brian Pennington Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 22:38:24 +0300 At 01:37 AM 9/7/2004, Steve lineback wrote: >> I found three boxwood folding rules today. They all need from light to massive cleaning and I wondered if anyone was familiar with a way to clean these without wiping out the markings or the patina? << GG's: The fine grain of boxwood gives you a better chance of cleaning a rule than the later cheaper maple rules. Depending upon the level of cleaning needed, I've used waterless hand cleaner with lanolin as recommended by the late Ken Roberts with generally good success. Use of a fine furniture wax with a cloth rag will also provide some gentle cleaning and sometimes is enough. An article written by a Mr. Drake (college student son of the superintendent of the Chapin-Stephens rule shop) in 1910 on rule manufacturing states that linseed oil and lampblack are rubbed over the rules, wiped off, shellacked, rubbed down, and then reshellacked. So, any solvent/cleaner that would likely affect either the linseed-lampblack or the shellac would best be avoided. One note on cleaning rules - they never look right after a vigorous application of brass polish - just don't do it. When you see an old rule, appropriately aged (patina) but highly polished, its kind of like seeing an 85 year old grandmother who's wearing bright red lipstick, heavy rouge, tube top and mini-skirt. Yikes. Best, Brian ------- Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 17:03:15 -0800 (PST) From: John Maki Subject: Two Tips for the Shop [sherline group] Two simple tips which I have found help with clean-up and waste control. 1. I keep a pad of 3M Post-It's at my bench. When mixing small quantities of epoxy they provide a clean surface and adhere to the bench during the mixing process. When done they are easy to throw away. The very small pads are also handy when I'm doing a set-up. 2. My wife buys round cotton pads from Costco for her makeup. I find they are great for cleanup of my tools! They are rugged, lint free and are very absorbent. She buys them in the personal care section. One container has eight zip-lock tubes of 100 pads, each about 2" in diameter. They are called "Premium Cotton Rounds" by IRIS, a Canadian company. They also hold up nicely for applying wax or finishing oils! Happy New Year, John Maki ------- NOTE TO FILE: The real lesson in this next message is how to justify buying ANY tool. Use the Force wisely. ------- Subject: Re: RE: Compass Plane [oldtools list] From: Steve Reynolds Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:55:10 -0500 Keeling, John (GE Energy) wrote: >>> I am thinking of buying a compass plane... From: paul womack [mailto:pwomackx~xxpapermule.co.uk] >> I'd start with a more general question; does anybody out there use a >> compass plane - and if so what for, how often, and how easy is it to >> use. THEN (and only then) would I worry about models. Bugbear From: "Keeling, John (GE Energy)" > Oh, and my other reason for wanting a compass plane is, I don't have > one! But seriously, Bugbear makes a good point. Does anyone use one? > Does it do what I think it's supposed to? Is it worth the bother? The Support Group from Hell does not endorse the sentiments expressed by Bugbear even though they do make some sorta sense. It is a basic belief amongst SGFHers that if you know that a tool exists, and if you want one, then that is plenty good to go ahead and buy one. No sharp pencil calculation needed to justify the acquisition. You need at least one of every tool made no matter how arcane or esoteric. If someone else needed one, what makes you think you won't? The only question to answer is in what order do you obtain them. I answer this question by getting anything that crosses my path. Go forth and accumulate. Regards, Steve ------- Subject: RE: Neat or messy shops [oldtools list] From: "Walt Cheever" Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 07:33:13 -0600 I have this problem--I hate to pick up the shop, I'm a slob by nature (not nurture surely, LOML loves orderliness). I'm also a klutz, so anything left lying around I will run into, stumble over, or knock onto the floor. I've also found that anything left lying out for a week or more turns invisible. I no longer see it as clutter, it's just there until its run into, stumbled over, or propelled to the floor. And finally, I enjoy an orderly shop more than a trashy one. Sort of the difference between a beat up old tool and one that has been restored to feel good in my hands. So the solution that I have cobbled together works like this. 1. Have places for everything, even if it is just a spot leaning against the wall, that's where it belongs. If I run out of places, either make more, or store stuff elsewhere or (in extremis) get rid of something. (AKA the doomsday scenario.) Adding 16' of wire shelving to one corner was major improvement to the shop and my working there. 2. (I think this came from a posting here) Each time I go into the shop I put away 10 things. A pencil counts as one thing, so does sandpaper. But put it away in the places provided by #1 above. I do the same when I need a think break. That gets the clutter down to a reasonable level, without mounting a major clean up. I can put away 10 things while I'm still getting the morning's work planned. I am surprised by how much easier the shop is to use with the clutter being just the recent stuff. 3. Have lots of trash cans. Should be easier to bin it than drop it on the floor. 4. Sweep the floor occasionally. Amazing what I will find. ------- Subject: RE: Ever do this? [oldtools list] From: "Bret Rochotte" Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 15:32:10 -0500 Ever do this??? [See a tool, buy it, and then go back to buy the others that had been used by the same guy so they wouldn't get separated, lonely.] Heck ya, I do it all the time. I see something, I think I want it , then the little angel on one shoulder says you don't really need that, you are spending too much, the kids need new shoes, then the little devil on the other shoulder says, you don't have one exactly like that yet, you can probably sell it for double that much, always need spares, I will need triplicates so I can make up a tool kit for each one of my boys, got to save it from the saw painters or someone else that will abuse it and then leave it out in the rain. I usually leave without purchasing, then I go home and look at completed auctions to see how they are selling, or look at MJD's web sight to see how much he is asking, then I got to have it and I end up driving back at the next opportunity to make sure it is still there, heart rate and respirations starting to go up as I start running from the parking lot to the spot where it was last seen, hoping someone else didn't nab it, and without hesitation I grab it and head for the check-out lane. I recently did this to get a Morse drill index and in the process found a Sargent take down square I missed (beep-beep)or wasn't there the first time, and I also did this to get a Bonney's Patd adjustable hollow auger. The moral of the story is just grab it and don't waste time or gas money driving back the second time. Cheers to all in the SGFH, Bret Bret and Wendy Rochotte New Bremen, Ohio ------- Subject: Waxes etc [oldtools list] From: Peter B Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 16:46:41 +1000 An interesting read if anyone is wanting to compare wax finishes etc. http://www.arbortech.com.au/articles/036.html http://www.arbortech.com.au/articles/037.html Peter B ------- Subject: Idea for Shop Floor Construction [Oldtools list] From: Gary Curtis Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 18:02:37 -0700 My architect friend reviewed my shop plans today. He had one suggestion. The floor. He recently used the following concept for the remodel of a commercial machine shop. He took ordinary 2x4s. Cut the timber into 2-inch blocks. The blocks were laid down right over the concrete slab, with only a 6 mil plastic moisture barrier. The blocks are laid down as a parquet, end down, so the top view is a 3.5x2 inch matrix of wood. The depth is also 2". There is no need for sleepers along the side, only some shimming to keep the assembly tightly knit. No pressure treated lumber, no glue, no waves, no buckling or sagging (that would be waves), no cold feet, no collapsing under the weight of heavy machinery. Nothing short of a nuclear reactor vessel is going to crush a 2x4 cross-section of wood. Pressure treated wood might help the longevity. I asked how one would true the surface of such a floor once installed. He said the finish carpenter on his job used a jointer plane. Can you believe it? A hand plane. The big machinery was simply rolled in smoothly on dollies and a forklift. Riggers did that part of it. It just occurred to me that this would be ideal for a shop with a sloped subfloor. Just taper the cuts of 2x4 blocks. Facing the awful alternative of the Buckminster Fuller appearance of OSB with full varnish coating, damned if I'm not going to try this when I build my new shop. This is my kind of high tech. Any thoughts out there in shop-land? Gary Curtis ------- NOTE TO FILE: If the end is down, then that is the cut surface and the wood grain is vertical to the shop floor, and is least compressible under load. But that means the text "3.5X2 inch matrix" mentioned is really the 3.5 inch by 1.5 inch dressed dimensions of the original so-called 2 X 4. In reality, the dressed dimensions vary from mill to mill and it would be wise to experiment with a small sample of locally available timber as to laid patterns before buying the wood necessary for a large project. In an ideal matrix, as setting out a pattern with patio bricks, the brick length is exactly twice the width, and getting tight joints and symmetrical herringbone patterns is easy. If the 2 X 4 is really 1 5/8" X 3 5/8 inches, or some such odd size, getting a tightly laid herringbone pattern would not be possible. If interested in a herringbone pattern, it would be far easier to get a small local mill to cut the project's stock to be a true dressed 2 X 4 inch, or at least a perfect double ratio. With odd dimensions (not perfect multiples), the laid pattern will have to be some variant of running bond. The cracks between the wood blocks can be filled with leftover sawdust mixed with a hardening oil or oil-varnish combination. Alternatively, just the tops of the blocks could be sealed and individual blocks could relatively easily be replaced if damaged. Oldtools' Galoots do not like tailed tools and hence the reference to using a manual plane to finish the floor. That process, cutting end grain, would not be trivial compared to the relative ease of using a belt sander or industrial wood-flooring sander. ------- Subject: Idea for shop floor construction From: gary may Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 17:04:19 -0700 (PDT) Hi guys--- I've been rolling this one around in my head for a day or two, and here's how it looks to me. The 2x4 parquet floor is neither easy, nor cheap, nor galootish*. It's probably just the thing for a heavy machinery- bearing surface, strong, comfy and repairable, but it's no bargain. If I'm figuring this right, it'd take four lineal feet of 2x4 to cover 1 sq. ft. At going prices for "SPF Standard and Better" that's around $2. It won't be any cheaper than that. 1 1/8" T&G plywood decking goes for around $1.50 SQ. One piece of this ply covers 32 SQ. Takes 864 pieces of parquet to cover 32 SQ. I don't even want to think about the process of cutting all those blocks, and we don't talk on the porch about the kinds of tools one would be forced to use, but my Charlie Driggs-sharpened Disston ripsaw has cut a fair amount of 1 1/8" plywood decking in the past ten months, and is expected to cut a great deal more before slowing down. For a suspended floor in a 12x24 shop, you'd need about $800 for one beam, 20 joists and 9 sheets of ply decking, plus nails and one pier post---for a 'parquet' floor of that size, you'd need around $600 worth of 2x4s and a slab. Sounds to me like the suspended floor would be a lot cheaper, just in materials--what's a slab cost these days, poured and finished? With the suspended floor, you have a lot of options. If you were to use electricity, or dust collection, natural gas or running water in the shop you could run all of this in the crawl space. You could put a root cellar, a comfy basement or a cistern in the space below, anytime you wanted to, without disturbing the shop above. With a suspended floor, on a 12x24' foundation, you'd need to crosscut one beam, one pier post and 3 4x8 plywood sheets. You'd need to drive around 1500 nails. Two guys could do this floor in a day, with handtools, and be drinking beer when the sun went down. To lay the parquet, you'd need to cut, handle and (somehow) contain a sea of more than 7,000 blocks. I don't know how long this would take, but it might pay to build a little tent city and plant some crops, to house and feed the crew. There's a reason, of course, for making this 'parquet' sort of floor, it has to do with monstrously massive machinery, and hideously heavy materials, and high traffic in same. Not exactly galootish stuff. And not exactly cheap, neither.** Now back to your regularly scheduled banter. your pal; GAM in Seattle *A dirt floor is easy, cheap and galootish, and can always be up-graded. People have been using them for centuries in barns, smithies and workshops, not to mention home basements; Seattle (the rainy city) has many well designed homes from the 19th C. with no slab in the cellar, just earth surrounded by a properly-drained concrete foundation wall. No cost -- no problem. **cheap labor from children or prison labor gangs may have been a cost consideration in the old factories. ------- Subject: Re: Idea for Shop Floor Construction From: "Roger Turnbough" Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 19:18:57 -0500 Evening Gary and All. In the late 70's and early 80's I had the privilege to work for Caterpillar Tractor Company. Their machine shops were vast, covering 20, 30 acres or more. All of the production floors in the shops had wood block endgrain floors. In about 1980 they built about a 20 acre addition to one of the shops, many dumptruck loads of blocks, about 4x6x4" thick were placed on top of the concrete floor. Then a handful of guys armed with only a hatchet started popping the blocks into place. A constant supply of blocks was always there provided by a skidsteer, and a couple laborers with shovels. But the machines that produced metal chips used coolants or oils; the floors frequently got damaged. They used a tool similar to a dent puller, that screwed into a block, and backed one or more out, allowing sections of floor to be removed and replaced. Working on top of wooden floors was certainly better than concrete. Especially when you are more or less confined to a very small work area. If I remember correctly, all the blocks were square edged, and creasote treated. No sand or fines was ever used to fill cracks. IMHO, this will be no small task for you. Endlessly cutting blocks then on your hands and knees forever putting them into place. Or look at it this way, a 10'x10' area has 14,400 sq inches. A 2x4 block is 5.25 sq inches. Dividing the lesser into the greater comes out to 2742 blocks + change. I'll see ya when ya come up for air about this time 2006. :) Humbly, Roger South of Chicago ------- NOTE TO FILE: The next couple of subjects may seem a bit off topic in their title, but do yourself a favour and read-enjoy. Yes the text is mainly about good stuff for your workshop. You don't have to have the latest whiz-bang tools to get along just fine. And you will be amazed at how much metalworkers can learn by fixing and using old tools. The woodworkers in the Oldtools mailing list know that. These messages were found on the tipstools site at Yahoo. ------- From: Andrew Webster Date: Mon May 30, 2005 8:30 pm Subject: Adept Lathes - Anyone Familiar? [hintstips group at Yahoo] I am looking for information on the Adept lathe, produced in the UK from the 1920s until the late 1940s at least. Here is the context to explain the interest, which you may feel free to skip. Context Some of my modelling is what I call 1:43 scale "retro-modelling", in my scenario using only the tools, materials, commercial support, and technology available to someone in the decade following WW2 in England. This was a time of great scarcity because the British economy was recovering from six years of war, and by decree industrial effort was oriented towards export production. I was born after this period, but the immediate Post-War "golden age of scratchbuilding" is challenging and attractive. Besides involving interesting historical study it is a nice change from high-tech modelling in 1:152 finescale. I have assembled a retro tool kit, mostly from old tools got cheap from fleamarkets, and I have built a portable kitchen table workshop of the sort that was popular. This for space reasons resides on a spare watchmaker's bench, but I exercise discipline and never in the course of retro-modelling use a tool that isn't historically or ethically allowed. I must say that this took some discipline at first, but repeated historically appropriate treatments during modelling sessions of cheese, bread and butter, and Newcastle Brown Ale, have instilled the necessary discipline. I began the retro-modelling scenario imagining ownership of a hand grinder and occasional use of a friend's drill press. With these, hand tools, and a gas stove I made numerous small tools such as bench blocks, chisels, scribers, punches, marking gauge, etc. Very refreshing to do things the hard way, making parts to fit rather than miking them all digitally. This by the way accounts for my revived interest in case-hardening. I have some toolmaker's clamps to case harden and soon some other items, including form tools for manual mass-production. No CNC back then. I have a Geneva and a WW watchmaker's lathe dating to this period, but they are too rich to suit the make-do scenario. An Adept lathe would fit the bill perfectly. Adept Lathe For a description of the Adept see the excellent UK lathes site: http://www.lathes.co.uk/adept/index.html These machines were extremely popular, exported widely, and the australopithecus britannicus of the Unimat. Their sole attractive features seem to have been: (1) unbelievably inexpensive and (b) accurate spindle. Otherwise they were horrifically crude 13.5" cast iron contrivances, devoid of anything fancy and featuring almost no accessories. You had to make those yourself, and it seems that people did as a matter of course. It seems that for factory accessories there were only: - 4 jaw independent chuck (quite good) - nasty, independent 3-jaw "dog chuck" (truly foul) - face plate - male centre - hand rest - crotch centre Nonetheless superb work was done on these machines for decades, and these machines live in legend. Apparently quite a few still soldier on, probably in the hands of owners of Adept shapers which I hear are excellent. I would be grateful for any additional information or impressions of the Adept lathe. For instance: was (or is) any other headstock tooling made for 3/8 BSP spindle thread? i.e., would I have to machine adaptors? Could the headstock spindle be easily adapted to take collets (I have WW collets, or could make some). Any things to be wary of? etc. I enjoy early issues of the Model Engineer. I have a bound set for 1947 and the odd other early issue. Back then, articles on improving lathes and making accessories were very common. Many people lacked the cash and there were shortages if you had the cash. If anyone can recall any old articles on improving the Adept, or just working with it, I would be most appreciative. The reference would do although I would not say no to a scan. When I know enough about these little beasts I will track one down, and know what comprises and sound machine and a fair price. I don't expect many of us are familiar with these alien devices. In any case I hope I've tried to make this discussion interesting reading. Andrew Webster ------- From: Andrew Webster Date: Mon May 30, 2005 11:51 pm Subject: RE: [hintstips] Adept Lathes - Anyone Familiar? 30/05/2005, Jerry with a J wrote: >Hi, Andrew: >I'd be interested in understanding what you consider to be "ethically >allowed" when it comes to a toolkit. It sounds as if you've been building >a set of tools. Could you post a few pictures of your set up? I hadn't quite expected this....sure. Give me a few days to get some images posted, and bug me if I forget. Yes I have now assembled a complete kit of authentic retro hand tools. Quite easy really, and it cost practically nothing. A few of the hand tools were in rough shape, but the fun was in restoring them without recourse to a machine shop. Back there and then, modellers and model engineers thought themselves lucky to get badly used items if they had fix-up potential. Nearly all the tools will be visible in or on the portable workbench. This is not an exercise in history, not originality, so the bench is cribbed from what the great modeller Rev. Peter B. Denny used to build his famous Buckingham layout. As far as I know, this twisted modelling approach is mine own, although there is no such thing as an original thought. I have written a draft article on the mode and ethics of retro-modelling for submission to the Model Railway Journal. The MRJ has a cerebral and possibly disordered audience. Once the MRJ published a dozen page article on machines to simulate engine shed smoke in 4mm scale, and also a treatise on scale colour. My draft includes a detailed examination, based on a literature reading, of what an average post-War tool kit would look like. I'll abstract this ASAP because I would welcome any feedback. This may seem that I'm wired too tight, but the objective is to do some craftsmanship as in the times when this was normal, and when visual effect was preferred over rivet-counting. So far I have had great fun and it is all low stress. In fact I have thrown together most a of scratchbuilt 7mm narrow gauge engine (electric motor) in about 20 hrs and the effect will be good on the eventual diorama. Andrew ------- From: "Ellis Cory" Date: Tue May 31, 2005 8:49 am Subject: Re: [hintstips] Adept Lathes - Anyone Familiar? Andrew wrote: >and never in the course of retro-modelling use a tool that >isn't historically........ Just a thought, if you are modelling in the era of just post 2WW, then older people of the time would have complained of all the 'modern equipment', it was not like that in my day. So do you go back to their era, because if so, there would be more complaints. So you end up going backwards in time to... good luck with the flint knapping :-) Ellis ------- From: Andrew Webster Date: Tue May 31, 2005 8:01 am Subject: Retro-Toolkit [hintstips group at Yahoo] As there is some interest, below is some draft commentary I wrote about the challenges of modelling in the immediate post-War period in the UK. The description is about hand tools for railway modelling in scales 7mm and below. Some impressions of the larger model engineering scene are as follows: - In 1947 it took at least 12 months after placing an order to receive a cheap Adept lathe. - Myford was now replacing Drummond, if you could get it, and a sound old Drummond was worth good money. - The ME contained many stories of people building lathes, shapers, etc. using mostly hand techniques. - Stories of bombed out workshops abounded. - Tools and materials that were not exported were in extremely short supply, and suppliers often refused to sell outside of trade circles. - Rationing continued on food and certain materials (e.g. wood) for years. - Not uncommonly servicemen returned to find their big items like lathes sold off. - Treadle foot power was still common for largish lathes, and may have had a brief revival owing to scarcity of motors. - In 1944 a model engineer was reported for wasting coal (in his garden he was firing a small coal-fired engine about 3-1/2" gauge). - Shapers were more common - and appreciated - than milling machines. Many or most shapers were hand operated. - Drill presses were not uncommonly treadle or wheel operated. - The Korean War prolonged the austerity period. - The Unimat appeared in 1954 as austerity conditions were coming to an end. This marked the beginning of the end for the brutally simple small machines (Adept, Flexispeed) then on the market. I could go on, but this conveys the challenge of the times. Andrew Webster *** Consider the tools and working environment that an average Post-War modeller might possess. The attraction of retro-modelling lies is making do with similar limitations; indeed, modern equipment would complicate simple techniques and lower productivity. Inflation was high and wages were low, but tools were in short supply even to those with money. Besides the ordinary competition there were organised groups - like demobbed watchmakers - advertising "high prices" for used tools. Social pressures could make the acquisition of equipment hard to defend when returning workers needed tools for their trade. Most new tools were British and good quality. Hardened and tempered carbon steel was common. Stainless steel was rare. Disposable tools were unheard of. Handles were brass and wood, seldom plastic (read: Bakelite). Fine slicing needed a single-edged razor blade, a penknife, or hopefully an artist's trimming knife (fixed blade with ebonite or wood handle). An uncommon luxury was the Multicraft modeller's knife that appeared at War's end, the ancestor of the X-Acto #2 that Trix brought to the UK around 1950. No razor saws meant that fine sawing needed a ground-down hacksaw blade. Hammering one into a slot sawn in a steel rod made a little padsaw. Creative uses were found for old tools. Old pliers might be reground and their joints tightened. Files might be resharpened by letting them rust in the garden. The handles of terminal specimens could be recycled and the steel ground into a chisel or a scraper. Hardwood dowelling and a bit of tubing for a ferrule could make a nice handle. Many a centre-punch was made of silver steel rod, hardened and tempered over the gas ring. Reworking tools, with bench stone and oil, was a basic skill. John Ahern explained in Miniature Building Construction (1948) how to resharpen razor blades. Modellers lacking interest in, or aptitude for, reconditioning or making tools restricted their activities around whatever tools they could buy. Period writers liked to state that much had been written about tools, so little remained for them to say. Actually, they were inclined towards grossly understating the minimum tool kit in acknowledgement of the supply difficulties. Countless recruits probably gave up in frustration, but many who persevered became resourceful artisans. As medicine dictates: That which doesn't kill us makes us stronger. A literature review suggests that the following was average - if not liberal - for a Post-War modeller's workshop. Marking Out Tools: Centre punch; scriber (gramophone needle in a pin vice); light hammer; 3" try-square; celluloid protractor; brass or celluloid set-square; 12" imperial and metric steel rule, and maybe 6" too; 3" dividers; pencil compasses; 2H pencil; and 4x eyeglass. Binocular optics were unknown. A plate-steel SWG wire gauge often estimated sheet, wire, and drill sizes. A vernier was highbrow and many thought a mike more useful. Cutting Tools: Tin snips; 6" junior hacksaw; fretsaw and/or piercing saw (often with insufficiently fine blades); drills 1/64th" to 1/4"; a few number drills down to pin size (#72); scissors; penknife; single-edged razor blades; ¼” and ½” wood chisels; maybe a ¼” cold chisel; and wire-cutting pliers. Reamers (broaches) were uncommon. Files: The large British file industry was geared for export. Horological merchants sold expensive domestic and Swiss watchmaker's files, but often rationed their stocks by refusing to sell to persons outside the trade circle. The following would be thought a decent collection: six #2 cut needle files (pillar, round, square, tri-square, 1/2-round, barrette); a half dozen more fine files, hopefully including a couple of Swiss pattern and a few reserved for dirty work like soldering; six-inch second cut flat, round, and half-round files; and a decent 6" pillar file ideally #2 cut watchmaker's type. Holding Tools: Tweezers, often household type; Eclipse pin chuck with collets; pin vice with several collets, or one or two Eclipse English pattern pin vices; bench vice, possibly with reconditioned jaws; one or two toolmaker's clamps or a hand vice; C-clamps; and pliers: flat small, flat large, snipe, and maybe round. Soldering: Copper bits, heated in the gas ring, were common until the mid-50s. Many modellers worked up to an electric iron. These were costly and 40 watts was thought small. With no butane torches, extra heat came from the gas range, a kerosene blowlamp, or a makeshift alcohol lamp perhaps with a lung-operated jeweller's blowpipe. Miscellaneous: Small handbrace able to take the pin chuck; maybe a cheap Woolworths hand-cranked pillar drill and a hand-cranked grindstone; screwdrivers (2, 3 and 4 mm); fretsaw table with clamp; 6" plane; home- made sandpaper blocks; taps 8 BA and maybe 10 BA; India combination bench stone, with oil can; needles, hat-pins, and old steel pieces to stone into tools like scrapers. Lacking plastic containers, small items were kept in wooden boxes (e.g., for pencil leads), metal toothpaste powder boxes, old lipstick tubes, etc. Sprung clothespins and Bulldog clips held work when soldering and while glue was setting. Steel and brass scraps became weights and anvils. Workbench: Unheated garages and coal heating often made the kitchen or living room the best workplace. Portable "kitchen table workbenches" were popular. See Peter Denny's set-up in Wild Swan's Peter Denny's Buckingham Lines, Volume 1. Many contended with less. The surface might be old tongue-and-grooved boards because plywood was harder to get. The £1 monthly new lumber entitlement was best spent on baseboards (or house improvements) so fixed benches were often braced-up tables and desks. Cutting was done on hardboard or the tough cardboard - almost like MDF - then common for boxes. An old flat iron might be an anvil and platen glass a surface plate. An Anglepoise lamp and 60-watt bulb was considered sophisticated lighting. ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following posting could have been put into the Lubricants file here as it recommends a few, but the Workshop Tips file seemed more appropriate. Don't forget the Rust Removal file which contains preventative ideas mixed in with the removal methods. ------- Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 20:05:56 -0700 From: "Jim E." Subject: Re: Electrolytic Rust Removal] [Prints_and_Plans] Here's the information I promised you. I apologize for the length - I did say he was a retired engineer... x~xx;-) Graciously, Jim Lakewood, CA All Hail Rube Goldberg! >>> Hi Jim, Hope the following discussion helps all the others with rust problems. A. Technical. My working hypotheses for rusting in my shop are: 1. During the early morning as the air temperature cools to below its dew point the air temperature remains nearly constant during and until the water condenses on any cold surface, like a lathe bed. (A good, visual example, is the morning dew that frequently occurs outdoors on the ground.) 2. Being near the ocean, 0.25 mile away, the sea salt comes ashore with the mist formed from crashing waves on the beach, and deposits salt on everything to form with condensed water an electrolyte; this electrolyte increases the reaction rate of atmospheric oxygen with iron. Thus, this film of condensed water and salt provide the conditions for rapidly converting iron to iron oxide-rust. During the day the air temperature and metal temperature increases above the dew point and the water evaporates into the air, but not before some rust is formed. (The salt changes the water evaporation rate and conditions, but this is probably not significant for the repeated rusting process.) This rusting process repeats every time the ambient temperature reaches the dew point temperature, which probably occurs each day. I originally thought that this process occurred in the winter when the storms caused high humidity, salt in the air and the temperature dropped to low levels during a storm or at night (or I put a wet boat/auto into the shop). But, after looking at an air humidity temperature plot/chart it is evident that at reasonable summer humidity the nightly temperature drop could also regularly produce condensation. B. Prevention. There are several approaches to prevent rust in the shop: (a). Heat the shop space always above the dew point. (This is what happens in the desert areas, and in my former shop in Sierra Madre, California.) However, fossil heat is expensive in the winter with a metal building. The use of heaters which burn a fuel and deposit all of the combustion gases inside the building is really self defeating. (I tried this.) The combustion of hydrocarbons produces water which significantly increases the building interior humidity; thus, the heater must be vented and unless there is heat exchange of combustion air with flue gases the heat loss is significant. Electric heat would work, but is expensive and the warm air must be well mixed within the shop. (b). Coat all the iron with a protective coating (such as LPS 1, 2, or 3) which leaves a film, oil, coating. I have found that this is somewhat messy, but it works on metal or tools which are not often used, or will be machined with a cutting fluid. One can also use organic vapor coating (such as Zerust) which must contain the iron in a package or a cabinet (a little difficult for lath bed); it is also expensive. (c). Dehumidify the volume by condensing the moisture on a cold surface and depositing the water outdoors. Of these methods dehumidifying the air seems to be the best approach. I also use LPS to coat metal and tooling that I don't use very often and don't mind the oil coating. I investigated dehumidifying and found it to be an expensive investment. So, I decided to try to use an unused 1954 Norge upright Freezer as a test of the method before making any investment in a dehumidifier. I proved that I could remove about a quart of water a day from the shop. (My son has a 40 foot Passport sail boat in Alameda, California; he uses a marine dehumidifier which drains into the sink. It works very well in keeping the boat "dry". These units cost about $1000.) C. Current Status. Before I describe my old system using a household freezer I should inform you that I found at Lowes in Medford, Oregon Whirlpool dehumidifiers on sale last Fall for about $140. So, I bought one (Model AD 40 DSL 5). I purchased this low cost Whirlpool model on sale for a test. It has a two speed fan which is not very important; a second feature is important: being able to automatically defrost the coil when it freezes. It apparently does this like a heat pump; converts iced evaporator into condenser; then switches back to cooling the air when water melts and drains away from the coil. The test results are positive it did a better job of lowering my shop humidity than the modified freezer (automatic control, dryness setting, semi continuous-no need to cycle, drain hose connection available, more water output, less electric power, and automatic cutoff if water does not drain). I then purchased a second one because of my Shop's air volume (35x50 foot pad with 12 foot doors and a high peak roof). The shop volume is much larger than one unit could handle. Note, these units are rated at 40 pints water per 24 hours; that is very high; it is probably a rating for 90% RH at 80F. So far this year, I have had no new rust problem inside the shop. I should also note then that Whirlpool, and others, make several models for different humidity conditions at significant differences in cost (~$150 to $300 for Whirlpool; some other ones on the web cost $1000 to $2000. This cost may not really be to much to invest if one considers that a shop may have $10,000 to $20,000 worth of rustable machines, tooling and stock.). The expensive feature is: at how low a temperature can they still function-remove significant amount of humidity/water from the air.) Their best unit is specified for use in a cold humid basement. Brookings, Oregon is not cold; it does not normally freeze here and the early summer humidity is like 50 to 60% at 70F. The late summer is hot and dry-one has to water the lawn. I buy electric power for about $0.07 per kilowatt hour. Others may have different ambient conditions or factors which would make my choice a poor one. It may be better for someone to purchase a dehumidifier rather than spend their time and effort with an old Freezer. The Web has a lot of information on dehumidifiers and cost data which could be useful in making a new decision. D. Requirements for a freezer dehumidifier: 1. Could be an old Upright Model with the expansion coils in the shelves, but these may now be hard to locate. 2. Freezer has to be modified so that outside shop air can be circulated thru refrigerant expansion coils in the cabinet. Removal of the door may be the easiest approach; or just leave it open. Air duct should be such that shop air is not recirculated within the cabinet. Input shop air should be from the top and the cold air discharged toward the floor. A baffle in the center may be adequate to perform this function. 3. The amount of shop air that can be circulated has to be limited such that moisture will condense onto the expansion coil. Too much air flow will just provide cooled air which cannot decrease the humidity. 4. The ice that forms on the evaporator coil has to be removed. It can collect such that air will not flow through the coils. (I just observed the amount of frost on two of the three shelves to be "enough".) One method, which I used, is to cycle the compressor off at timed periods (using a $15 interval timer like the ones used to turn on Christmas lights that can be set for on/off operation several times a day) and just melt the ice with the continued flow of shop air. (It took about 20 minutes of air flow to melt all of the ice in my unit. I divided the day into four five hour periods. This on/off time can be expected to change with the shop air temperature and humidity.) I would not expect the freezer thermostat to function as on/off; it probably should be set so the freezer runs all of the time. It would be nice to have the water not freeze on the coil; however, this is probably not possible because the expansion coil heat transfer surface is fixed and has a very low temperature surface someplace that will freeze the moisture. It requires about 1000 BTU per pound of water to remove the heat of vaporization and only about 80 BTU to freeze a pound of water to Ice. This is a 12 to one ratio; thus, it is not a very important loss or expense for melting the Ice with continued flow of shop air. 5. The condensed water must be removed from the shop. The defrost flow has to be collected. Most self defrost freezers let it flow onto a pan under the unit and be evaporated into the ambient air; this would not be acceptable. I collected it at the bottom of the freezer and let it flow outdoors through a hose. 6. The compressor should be off long enough that the refrigerant pressure in the unit is equalized. They are not designed for "hard" starts. The time for melting the ice should be sufficient to provide this. 7. The electric defrost heater must be disconnected. 8. One needs to determine air temperatures and relative humidity. Radio Shack has inexpensive (~$20) household devices which can be used. I removed and discarded the door and replaced it with a plywood cover; then I installed four pancake 300 cfm fans into a new plywood cover at the bottom. Note, the newer freezers use a small fan to move the freezer air over an expansion coil that is encased in metal or plastic covers on the rear wall. This fan may not be adequate, but should be used initially as a test. 9. One needs some quantitative measurement of the benefit. One can measure the decrease in humidify in the shop but this is somewhat difficult to correlate with the many variables. I found that collecting the water from the hose outdoors into a shallow pan and then measuring the volume as a function of time (1 day) produced a satisfactory measurement. One pint of water is ~1 pound. The name plate on the freezer will give data on the voltage and current used. From the on time the electric power consumed per day compared with the water volume condensed can give a good approximation for the result expected/obtained after making changes. 10. A little study of wet and dry bulb thermometry would be helpful in understanding what is or should be occurring. The use of a humidity chart/plot of pounds of water per pound of dry air verses air temperature with the dew point line and temperature, and lines of constant humidity is also helpful. try http://daphne.palomar.edu/jthorngren/humidity.htm for a general discussion in air. try http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/kinetic/relhum.html for more detailed and some math. or just use humidity in google to get URL's Best Wishes to all, Warren <<< ------- From: "Brian Chapman" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 4:40 pm Subject: Machinery pads? [sherline] Believe it or not, I'm having trouble finding locally dense foam rubber padding on which to place tabletop machines. Just relocated the shop, and before I bolt the Sherline mill to the table again, I'd like to place a pad under it. If someone here could suggest an online retailer where I could buy such a pad, I would appreciate it. (Looked at Grainger and MSC online, didn't find what I'm after.) Thanks much, Brian Chapman Evansdale, Iowa ------- From: "Jerry G" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 5:17 pm Subject: Re: [sherline] Machinery pads? Alternate suggestion...Instead of a pad, use rectangular section heavy duty die springs (with washers)between the machine and table. Jerry G (Glickstein) P.S. A good name in die springs is Danly.... ------- From: "Dan Horn" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 7:01 pm Subject: Re: [sherline] Machinery pads? I used some garage sale PC "mouse pads" so far it's AOK for my use. think I paid $ 2. bucks for 2 of 'em. Happy Chips Dan ------- From: Randy Gordon-Gilmore Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 7:39 pm Subject: Re: Machinery pads? Brian, I have both my lathe and mill bolted to 1/2" aluminum plates. The plates are setting on Isodamp bushings (go to http://www.mcmaster.com and search p/n 9311k143). The "shank" of the bushings fit in counterbores I made on the bottom of the plates. The "flange" of the bushings is what the plates actually rest on, and they are not bolted to the workbench. The PVC material of the bushings is high-damping, and has pretty good friction also, so the machines stay in place. If I wanted to secure them more, I'd just drill some 1/4" blind holes in the benchtop, slip in 1/4" dowel pins standing proud of the surface by 1/4" or so and place the bushings over them. Best regards, Randy -------- Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 19:35:55 +0100 From: Clive Foster Subject: Bending Acrylic for Enclosures (Was First steps ......) [taigtools] > > At work a while back one of the ME's quickly made up a back cover for > one of our systems using a sheet of acrylic. It was bent with a > couple of 90 degree turns that looked professionally done. I asked > him how he did it and he said he used the heat gun (we have a 1000W > Ungar that we use for removing IC's from boards needing rework). The > acrylic sheet was placed on a bench and lined up with the edge of the > top of the bench where he wanted the bend. He then just heated the > top of the acrylic until it got pliable and then slowly bent the piece > hanging off the edge down until it was at the angle he wanted. He > said that you could get the acrylic sheets at either Home Depot or > Lowes. I haven't done this yet but did verify that I can get the > arcylic sheets as he said. > > Anybody else done this? If not, I'll repost when I do it and let > everybody know how it worked. BTW, the heat guns are not that > expensive. I got the same one we use at work (Ungar 1095) from Mouser > for around $50 but I've since seen similar units for less than $20 on > eBay. Dave I've used this technique for other things. Works well but wants a bit of practice first as its easy to get an uneven bend or under-heat / overheat the material. With care and a narrow nozzle an electric paint stripper will do the deed, my umpteen year old dual heat Black & Decker was good enough. I've not done enough to be an expert but found it best to do the initial heat on high power moving the gun quite quickly up and down the bend line and when it approached getting pliable switch to low power to get an even heat along the line. If you get it right you wont see optical ripples in the material, if you get it badly wrong the surface will ripple, I usually manage a smooth surface with optical ripples. Prolly best not to try for a tight bend, last time I went round the curved edge of a scrap bit of kitchen work-top. Get a nice new bit of material. Stuff that has been lying around for ages does not behave well and can stress crack on you, as I found out when practising on a bit from the "come in handy" box. I've heard that sheet from some suppliers can be bent like this with the protective paper backing left on one side but with some other brands the paper makes a horrible mess. Nicest if you have a type where you can leave the paper on 'cos it protects the underside from picking up stuff from the surface beneath. Hafta heat on the naked acrylic naturally. For an enclosure a U shape forming the front and sides with a flat back plate seems good. Could make the back as an L to get a roof if you really want one. Were I to do the job I'd have a simple acrylic U for front and side but make the back out of something inexpensive between 1/2 and 1 inch thick. One of the "improved woods" e.g. chipboard, MDF or what have you should do. I'd make the back width a nice snug fit in the end of the U and use 4 of those 2 part magnetic catches to hold things together. Magnetic bit on the acrylic U far enough in from the edge so it locates on the back board, weeny steel plate on the backboard. Acrylic pulls off easy for total access. Clive ------- Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 19:11:23 +1000 From: "John Manners" Subject: Re: [OldTools] bio & ? Steven C. Kumpf Jr. wrote: >>The pine ended up being my new workbench top with two rows of dog holes, square, in the front piece. The maple is the base with doweled mortise and tenon, all done by hand and not glued in case I have to move it. It is a monster with all my bench planes in the base. But now I see that I should have glued the base because with all the planing the base has become loose. Is there some way that I can keep it solid without gluing it together? I know about the drawboring, but I would rather be able to take it apart if I need to. << Steve could try the method of joining prescribed for bench building in "How to Work with Tools and Wood", a Stanley Tools book first published in 1952 and into its 22nd printing by Pocket Books in 1972, the vintage of my copy. Simply, hex head (machine?) bolts of 3/8" are run through washers into the legs and thence into the rails, 1" holes are drilled into the rails at the points where the ends of the bolts will be located and the bolts are tightened into the nuts placed in such 1" holes. It's all a bit, hum, Ikea with real timber. Although the Stanley design was for flush-fitting rails and legs and dowels were incorporated to prevent the rails from revolving on the bolts, there seems to be no reason why one can't fit the bolt & nut assembly to the bench as is. The trick is to drill the bolt holes straight enough so that the 1" holes land on the ends of the bolt holes. Horizontal drilling (boring?) with a brace and auger with a looose washer on the auger shank to keep things horizontal whilst sighting along the rail to keep things straight should do the trick. The auger having, in the ordinary course, 1/64" greater diameter than its nominal size, permits the easy fitting of the bolts. I have built six of this type of bench (some simply as heavy stands) in this manner over the years and have been happy enough to have been able to tighten them up whenever timber movement so dictated and they can be pulled apart for transportation and re-assembled fairly easily. 16 nuts, bolts & washers are required if the bench has lower as well as upper rails. If one does not like the bolt heads protruding they can be sunk and plugged and the 1" holes can be bored from the inside to a sufficient depth to accommodate the nut but without exiting the far side (outside) of the rail but the plugs have to be removed for disassembly or retightening. This construction method first appealed to the bottom- feeder in me because I could use "off-the-saw", unseasoned and therefore much cheaper hardwood for the bench base and pull things together as shrinkage loosened things up. Liberal applications of diesel fuel on the green timber forestalled endgrain cracks. In the alternative, if drawboring is continued completely through the legs and well-seasoned and substantial (1/2", say) and "bendable" dowels are used for the pins (unglued) they should be able to be drifted out with a smaller diameter drift but would need renewing on re-assembly. The offset should be no greater than 1/16" and the leading end of the pin needs to be well tapered to avoid the dreaded "blow out" on the far side. Drive them from the "show" side just in case. John Manners In Brisbane, where it's starting to warm up a bit. ------- Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 15:15:40 -0800 From: Kyle Accardi Subject: [OldTools] Heating a shop (as it relates to old tools) Since it's come up a few times lately, I like to solicit opinions. If this is too off-topic, slap my knuckles with a folding rule. We just relocated to the country and the shop 450 square feet currently, to be expanded into one or more car bays down the road. Natural gas is not an option, but perhaps propane is. Eventually, we hope to go solar for as much as possible, so an electric option probably isn't the best, although we do have access to that utility. The current FWW Tools & Shops issue has a pretty decent rundown on options, and I'm gonna re-read it a few more times to let it sink in. There is an old wood stove, which could be used as a supplemental source when I know I'm going to be in there for hours, but I'd need something that will keep the shop enough above freezing to keep it dry as well when I'm not there. One wall is shared with the chicken coop and they would probably appreciate it too. One more thing about controlling humidity. I will probably lay down some type of wood 'dance' floor over the concrete slab. Will this help buffer moisture coming from below the slab in any measurable degree? I need to do something fast, the iron is currently sitting wrapped in newsprint on open shelves (I know this is bad). My first job is to slap together some closed cabinets for the tools, and "slapping" means plywood, and that means t*bl*s*w and that means re-wiring the shop. Cheers, Kyle Accardi in peaceful Banks, Oregon ------- Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 17:55:06 -0600 From: MJD Subject: Re: [OldTools] Heating a shop (as it relates to old tools) Hi Kyle, I am working through the same dilemma with a new shop for my non-wood working tools. Consider the cost per BTU for each fuel, and the ability to hold a minimum temperature. If the concrete slab drops temperature, it will never "feel" warm regardless of air temperature. I spent last Saturday putting the upper floor in my new shop with a kerosene salamander pumping out 50.000 btu, and still had a chill on after 5 hours. The slab stayed cold, and so did we. Propane is fine, but be sure to use a vented furnace. The ventless are supposed to be safe, but I still worry about any indoor combustion without ventilation. You need to run a fuel line, electrical and vent. Keep it off the floor to avoid fire. If you plan to work with combustable finishes, or do engine work in the shop, that may also be a concern. A wood stove is nice an cheery, but you need to plan ahead. It will take a while to get the shop up to temperature, and unless you will be in the shop daily, the temperature will go up and down severely.It is a great place to destroy evidence. You will spend a bit of shop time just fiddling with the fire. Fire hazard, codes and insurance cost need to be considered. I'm planning to use electric for a primary heat since I can set it with a thermostat and have no need to worry about combustables. The set up is easy, nearly instant and no holes in the roof. Nice 220V wall mount heaters are availble for about $150. You can use wood as a suppliment. I use a 220v wall mount unit in my 2 car garage with great satisfaction. Use a vapor barrier under your wood. Concrete is pourous, and will wick moisture. If you want a earful about surface rust in the shop, ping me. Mike Duchaj ------- Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 16:20:21 -0900 From: "Phil and Debbie Koontz" Subject: [OldTools] Re: Heating a shop (as it relates to old tools) Wow. This is a big issue for me, and I hardly know where to start. FWIW, I use thermostatic oil heat in my shop, but not all winter--it costs more to heat the shop than it does our house, so I let it go cold when I'm not planning to use it soon. Propane and gas heat aren't really feasible here, so these little oil heaters are really common-- http://www.monitorproducts.com/ They are clean, safe, and fairly cheap to operate--I figure on about 2 gallons of oil per day even in the winter. Not cheap to buy (circa $1500), but as my father used to say, if you want economy, you have to pay for it. Wood heat for a wood shop sounds great--think how much it will help with controlling the excess curlies and scraps. But. It takes a lot of room --the actual footprint of a safely installed wood stove is about 6 feet or more in diameter, especially in a wooden structure. And you will need indoor fuel storage in addition to that space. Keeping a fire overnight can be a problem, so you may end up working in a cold shop several times a week, and, well, we've had several housefires in the neighborhood recently that started from a chimney fire. Makes me nervous. And speaking of fire hazards, what about sparks getting loose around sawdust or curlies? And what about using finishes and solvents? So, my two cents-- Start with a good tight building, if possible, Never, never forget about fire hazards. Phil Koontz In Galena, Alaska, where it's so warm today that some of the snow is starting to melt. ------- Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 22:22:37 -0600 From: MJD Subject: Re: [OldTools] Heating a shop (as it relates to old tools) Gary k wrote: > FWIW, I use a ventless heater in my basement shop area. It *does* contribute to moisture, but as far as fumes and odor, it's about the same as our gas range. I do get a little worried about dust when I'm burning electrons. < Thanks Gary, How about carbon monoxide? That is my biggest fear with unvented burning. Maybe unfounded, but my hemoglobin don't need the exercise! One other thought occurs: Has anyone looked into the waste oil burners? My dad heated his gas station for 35 years with a ceiling mounted oil burning furnace. The thing was constructed so you could use fuel oil or drain oil from the cars. He used to run a 50/50 mix all winter. These types of heaters show up in the trucker's magazines, and require a healthy supply of drain oil. Mike ------- Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 22:09:07 -0800 (PST) From: gary may Subject: Re: [OldTools] Heating a shop (as it relates to old tools) Hi guys-- I have a vent-free gas heater in my garage shop that's just right---the shop's well-insulated and just its pilot keeps the temp a noticeable bit warmer than outside---the heater has two ranges, 16k and 32k btu, and won't really WARM the shop when the temp drops below freezing, but it brings it in to the habitable sphere: say 15 or twenty degrees warmer than outside. Haven't noticed a humidity problem; I'm confident there is none and my Dad, who inspired me, ran a similar heater in the kitchen of his home for years. I have a 'black spot' CO detector card that hasn't turned black in five years or so, so I'm not too worried about it. "Vent-free gas" will get you mass info, from several marketers, via Google. mind the dust and shavings, though; gAM ------- Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 22:34:28 -0800 From: Kyle Accardi Subject: Re: [OldTools] Heating a shop (as it relates to old tools) Thanks all for the many good suggestions, It seems that I'm not the only one that the FWW article left cold, they are more or less retro-fit solutions. One thing the article mentioned that I wasn't aware of is that kerosene space heaters (currently employed lacking anything better) produce moisture. And that saw dust will clog the wick over time, makes sense. No biggie, the thing doesn't do much anyway. The woodstove does have clearance problems and I won't use it until I resolve those. It sounds like the biggest help is to vapor-barrier the cement slab floor and float a wooden floor on top with insulation in between. Circulated solar-heated water (radiant) would be good here too. I'll probably put up a drywall ceiling and hang a fan for circulation. As far as the actual heat source goes, leaning toward an electric wall- mount unit. Come to think of it, Home Power* magazine (issue #109) featured a story about building a black panel wall to heat a shop, very slick and a highly recommended magazine for anyone remotely interested in renewable energy. Don't think I have enough southern exposure for this though. This is new to me coming from the land of heated dry basements. I'm most worried about the effects of freezing on the woodies and saw handles. Although the humidity is already a problem on any non-waxed steel. Ciao, Kyle Accardi homesteading in Banks, Oregon http://www.homepower.com/ ------- Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 09:49:43 -0500 From: Peter Hyde Subject: [OldTools] Re: Heating a shop (as it relates to old tools) Hi Kyle, I have just been through all of your dilemmas so here is what I did. Wood stove is the greatest most enjoyable heat source. Use an airtight and you can burn scraps mixed with sawdust and shavings for hours. Frequently all night! Back up for constant heat a 4800 watt construction heater, with an electric baseboard thermostat wired into the 220v line. Dust and flammable vapour can be a problem with the wood burner so the electric heater is a good alternative in those situations. Most important is the floor. Cover concrete with a plywood floor. There is a product available for basement floors that has a dimpled plastic surface on the back of chipboard panels. Not cheap! Works because it stops dampness coming through the concrete and allows the floor to be fully floating. I did a similar thing using 4 x 8 sheets of 3/4 exterior ply with a loose tongue inserted on all edges laid on a continuous sheet of extra thick poly. My shop is uninsulated and the wood floor makes a helluva difference in heat loss. I now use only the construction heater! Chicken coop is a bonus! Great place to strip paint. Leave pieces suspended above chickens for about 3 months and watch the paint peel. (Ammonia fumes from chicken sh*t) If you keep a good layer of straw on the floor this will also provide some warmth for the chickens during the coldest months. Rural shops are the greatest! The absolute pleasure in looking out over a snowy frozen landscape and feeling that wood heat soaking into your muscles as the woodie creates shavings with a gentle swishing sound it my idea of Nirvana! Congratulations and Good Luck! Peter visit me at http://peterhyde.bravehost.com/ ------- Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 From: Bob Sturgeon Subject: [OldTools] Shop Heating My shop I built onto the side of my garage is about 12 by 20. When I first started thinking about heating it I had an old Pot Belly Stove that I vented to the outside. Worked pretty good after it finally heated up, but sometimes the project I would be working on I would be done with before things got comfortable. Took that out and tried Electric Heaters and radiating Kerosine Heaters, both worked great if all you did was stand over the top of them. My final solution was to buy a 70,000 Btu Torpedo Heater, like the kind they use around construction sites. It came with a themostat that mounts on the wall behind the heater and what ever temp you set it at will run until that temp is reached and then cut off. I have it sitting on a furniture dolly with wheels at the far end of my shop, so I can point it in any direction. These heaters have one draw back, they are noisy, but when you consider the amount of heat they put out they are terrific. I put a blanket up over a open door way to the old part of my garage to leave a little ventilation. One day last winter it was zero outside and my shop was 70 degrees and I was working in my shirt sleeves. Bob Sturgeon, in the Ohio Valley of Indiana. ------- Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 16:29:06 -0500 From: sgt42rhrx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: [OldTools] Shop Heating My solution is a through the wall combo electric AC/heater (looks like an AC, but does both). It does a fine job of keeping my 20 x 22 foot (concrete slab floor, heavily insulated walls and ceiling) very comfortable. It's mounted up high on one wall so does not intefere with useable wall space and away from shavings, etc. It's noisier than I'd like, but then most room ACs are as well. Cheers, John ------- Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 20:27:33 -0800 From: "Mike Wenzloff" Subject: [OldTools] Re: Heating A Shop (as it relates to old tools) Matthew asks... > Anyone here actually use radiant heat? Not the in-floor variety, but > the overhead variety. Matthew Groves I have a small shop...12' x 12' with a 9 foot ceiling. It is attached to our old Victorian home and I did tap into the forced air from our gas furnace with a piece of 6" flex pipe. Not much air flow as I have the upstairs feed shut most of the way down anyway, but enough that tools do not rust here in the northwest corner of the USA. Prior to doing that, and still today, the primary heat is a little quartz radiant from Lee Valley mounted from one of the loft's joists. Works quite well. After an hour in use using both elements, it is switched down to one element. Just a note, while it is only in the 20 degree f range at night currently, our air is still on the humid side. If I ever grow up and get a "real" shop, that little guy will live in the bench room over my bench to warm the ol' bones. Take care, Mike ------- Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 09:31:33 EST From: JTWadx~xxaol.com Subject: [OldTools] Re: Heating A Shop (as it relates to old tools) Ed Minch mentioned the reasons for slow response time of in-the-floor radiant heat, and concluded: I will second that from personal experience. I have two shops in the barn here in the cold-winter Catskills, both fully insulated but with lots of windows. My first attempt was one of those hang-from-the-ceiling gas-fired blowers; this heated the shop air up pretty quickly, though the tools remained frigid. The main drawback, though, was that the repeated heating and cooling cycles caused condensation to form on the cold surfaces, with predictable (and ghastly) results. (No doubt if I had figured out a way to work without breathing, I wouldn't have added so much moisture to the air...) The second and still current solution was radiant heat--baseboard radiant in one shop (old barn floor too thick for subfloor heat) and tubing under the floor in the other (built over an old haymow space). With fiberglass batts under the tubing it works OK to keep everything from freezing with thermostat at 50F, but it sure is slow to get the shop up to 60 or so when I get some shop time--think several hours, not minutes. I use one of those oil-filled electric radiators next to me at the bench when I need to get an hour or so in. John Wadsworth, in Delhi, NY, where it was minus 18F at 6AM today. ------- Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 08:06:38 -0800 From: scott grandstaff Subject: Re: [OldTools] Re: Condensation in my cold shop Water is not our friend in a shop! Right now I'm enjoying the 10 year flood and maybe the 100 year flood, but I sure hope not. I can't believe the phone lines are still up and the lights are on. It's wicked out there. Anyway my basement would be running steady water across the floor if I hadn't redirected the water away. It used to leak in a sprinkle of rain. It took me years getting used to where all the water was draining from and how to direct it someplace else away from the building before it even had a chance to attack my swiss cheeze concrete walls and floor. I know there are places where there is no appreciable change in elevation over a wide area and I feel for you. Not easy to keep a basement dry in flat soggy ground. But anywhere there is natural slope of any kind for you to work with, you should be able the channel the water long before it gets ya with swales and drains and overhangs n gutters etc etc. Some of my solutions look pretty cheezy (like a gutter tacked to a tree leading off the south side when no good drainage exists for a minimun distance of 12') but my basement was dry as of yesterday and man it's been drenching solid for days straight. I went through the flood of 97 bone dry. I like Lasko brand, 20" square fans for the cheapies I use to circulate air. Running continuous you get around 3 years from one before you even have to break it down and clean/oil the bushings. You can buy much more expensive fans but nothing better for anywhere near the money that I've found. I keep several on hand at all times. One new in the box for emergencies and several users in various states of wear, plus a couple of parts donors too. For the bigger jobs, I made a fan from 2 dead box fans. I gutted them and screwed the cases together making a deep one. Got an old 1/4hp industrial motor, cleaned up, rewired and put new bearings in, and a "replacement" fan blade from Grainger which was the most expensive part at around 25 bucks I think. In summer I put this upstairs in my finished attic window and it'll suck the brutal summer heat from the building like you can't believe. I've seen 20 degree drops in 20 minutes! I'd be dead without it or else be paying 5 times the air conditioning bill. I'll haul the thing down to the shop when anything particularly dusty (ahem) is about to happen and secure it to the window on the far end (if I don't, it's got enough power to fly off the window ledge!), opening the door on the near end and it'll suck everything even thinking about free floating in the air, right out the window. If I'm going to work shell or bone or glass it's a lifesaver. I still couldn't imagine my basement shop in the winter without a woodstove though. I think they burn water from the air to fuel the fire :-) Sure seems like it. If I keep it going for about a week with the fan running too, no matter how cold and wet it is outside, my lips will crack until they bleed if I'm not careful. yours, Scott Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools:http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks:http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ------- Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 18:57:51 -0000 From: "Lynn Livingston" Subject: Re: Suggestions for a new work shop [taigtools] "Dan Hogsett" wrote: > At the moment, my mill is setup in an old house that is falling > apart, Do you think 12' x 12' is big enough? Dan: Based on my experience, 12' x 12' is not big enough. I went from the back utility room which is about 8' x 10', to an out shed about 12' x 14'. Hopefully this summer I will be able to do a 20' x 20' somehow, either bought or pre-built. This hobby has the potential to grow at an alarming rate. I how have the Taig mill and lathe, largest bench DP, small bench bandsaw (need a bigger one as soon as possible), small bench belt/disc sander combo, two pedestal grinding setups, Craftsman roll away toolbox, a 3 x 8 workbench, another 2 x 6 bench for all the bench tools, an arbor press, a myriad of bolt, nut, screw, etc. bins, paint/glue/thinner/chemical locker, dust collection system, heaters, parts boxes, material bins and storage areas, pegboarded tools, 2 air hose stations,and a few other assorted tools and equipment stuffed in there now. I can't even turn around without bumping something, and it's getting dangerous I feel like. I had to rent a storage building down the road to hold some over-flow equipment that won't fit, such as a parts washer, 10-ton press, small chop saw, recently acquired used automatic horizontal bandsaw, tablesaw, miter saw, jointer, planer, etc. It really bites to have to "swap-out" all the different equipment when needs arise. I've been renting the storage shed for about six years now; could have made a substantial effort towards a new building! If you are purchasing or building anew, be sure and plan for future expansion now! ;-) Lynn ------- Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 18:47:54 -0800 From: James Eckman Subject: Re: Re: Suggestions for a new work shop >Based on my experience, 12' x 12' is not big enough. Depends on what you're doing... I did some good modelling work on a 2x4 bench with the Taig lathe. Would need a bit more space than that with the mill. I love your tool selection but, where I am, it would of set me back at least another $150K for another bedroom -- so I do without most of them. I have a good vice, a place for a jewellers piercing saw and the like -- probably about an 8x6 space dedicated to metalworking. If you can afford it, bigger is better until you have to walk too far to get to the tools! Jim Eckman ------- Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 13:06:23 -0500 From: "James DuPrie" Subject: RE: [OldTools] wife says build a shop When I built, I thought a lot about timber frame too, but decided against it, in favor of clearspan. I worked in a timber framed shop for a long time, and the posts (one every 10') always got in the way. Even for Just Hand Work, moving full size stock around the posts just sucks. Now that I'm more powered for a lot of my work, the large clear span gives me room for large in/out tables, and I can swing a 15' long board around without worrying about hitting anything. Timber frame is pretty, and a lot of fun to put up, but the span limitations just made it impractical for me (my shop is 40x55). JD ------- Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 21:06:07 +0000 From: Clive Foster Subject: Re: OK, how about concrete? [beginnerswkshp] > I can only say, WHY? My South Bend 9" is on a bench made from > welded 1" angle iron with a 3/4" plywood top and shelf and it is > more than stiff enough for the job. My 9x20 is mounted on a $139 HF > work bench with a 1-1/2" hard wood top and that is more than > adequate in strength and gives me good storage as well. My 7x > machines are kept portable and most of the time are used on desks > with maybe 3/4" ply or laminated wood tops and these work just > fine. What is this current craze of building a replica of King Tuts > tomb to support a small lathe. JWE Long Beach, CA > "Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax > collectors... and miss." Robert A. Heinlein Only reason for the King Tuts Tomb replica craze that I can see is people asking the wrong question and solving the wrong problem. Supa-dupa ultra stable, ultra stiff tops are only needed to compensate for inadequate or flexy legs. Classic example is the honeycomb top optical table which has to be monumentally stiff in all directions because its floated on air spung legs with as close to zilch stiffness in all planes as can be managed yet distortions and vibrations have to be kept down to sub wavelength of light levels. Even then it takes a lot of design skill and technology to do better a decent mass of carefully shaped cast iron. Small lathe only needs a stiff top because the beds are, relatively speaking, a bit flexible and can be distorted if the base stands unevenly. Many old style, light weight, gap beds are far less stiff than the bench they sit on. However I mounted a 9" SouthBend on kitchen work-top using pair of inexpensive plastic "workstation cabinets" from B&Q as the base with great success. Only cheat was to drive some scrap wood down the hollow plastic columns forming the main structure of the cabinets and to bolt the shelves in instead of using the standard placcy clips. Held 'bout half a thou per foot TIR taper year in year out in a garden shed work shop. Good enuf fer governmint work. Clive ------- Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 22:53:14 +0000 From: j.w.earlyx~xxatt.net Subject: Re: Re: OK, how about concrete? First what kind of lathe are you getting. If it is a 10" swing or smaller it could be mounted easily on one of those large roll cab mechanics tool boxes that are about 30 inches long by 18 inches wide and about 30 inches high. I have one of my 9x20 lathes mounted on one of these and when I get it back together I will probably continue to use it there or I might move my South Bend model "A" 9' over on to it so it can become more portable. Or you could weld up a stand similar in size on wheels putting some drawers and shelves in it to keep the tooling in. A key point Mert and I can tell you straight out, if you do not lock down the mounting bolts at the tailstock end of the bed you cannot put a twist in the bed. Also if your stand is rigid enough it still cannot be twisted. I used to be a mechanic and worked on some exotic sports cars and I have seen some bare chassis that weighed less than a hundred pounds that when all fitted out would do over 200 mph on the race track. It is stiffness that counts not weight and tubing or angle can make a stiff chassis or bench whether it is steel or wood. I make most of my benches from wood although lately I have bought a couple of steel ones. The wood ones are stiffer though if made right. JWE Long Beach, CA ------- Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 17:22:52 +0000 From: j.w.earlyx~xxatt.net Subject: Re: Re: OK, how about concrete? > The target lathe is a shorty (22") 10" swing, so it would fit on a > rollaround cabinet, and that's a really, really attractive concept. > Here's the issue that's at the bottom of this - bed trueness and > stiffness. You still did not say which particular machine it is but I have been successfully using my 9" South Bend with only the headstock end of the lathe bolted down solid for over 20 years and my 9x20 from HF is down on one of their inexpensive work benches with only the bolts at the headstock end pulled down tight. So If it is anything similar to the 9x20 you should be able to do the same. The bolts at the tailstock end of the bed are there, they are just not pulled down more than finger tight and neither lathe has twisted yet. The South Bend has been mounted like this for more than 20 years and the HF 9x20 for about 4 years now. No matter what those inflicted with a bad case of pendentaic need to mount lathes on a granite plinth say, it just ain't needed in the real world. If you ever had a look at the flimsy sheet metal stands most 12 to 13 inch swing machines come with from the factory you would realize this in short order. Leave the tailstock end nuts loose and there will be no problems. In fact there is one guy with a 9x20 that has his lathe bolted to two 4x4s that just rest on his work bench and he has done fine rifle work including small firing pins on this machine for six or more years. JWE Long Beach, CA ------- Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 20:52:37 -0000 From: "Philip Burman" Subject: Re: Machine tools on rolling stands??? [beginnerswkshp] The bed of a small lathe is sufficiently stiff to support itself. A steel plate, or other material, under the lathe and bolted to it, without distortion, will not add any significant stiffness unless it has a cross-section similar to the lathe bed itself and preferably several times the cross-section. That's a big lump of material. Also if it does not have a large cross-section it will distort due to its own weight as you move the bench around on an uneven floor. As suggested in a couple of other posts the best solution, certainly for a movable bench, is to only bolt down the lathe under the head stock and leave the tailstock free, this is purely to eliminate the risk of the lathe falling of the bench. Large lathe beds are different in that they depend on adequate support to avoid deflection due to their disproportionately large mass. Another point not generally realized is that concrete and other similar materials are actually less stiff than steel, by a factor of 10, and less stiff than cast iron by a factor of 5 to 7. The modulus of elasticity for steel is 30,000,000 psi. The MoE for concrete (if you are good) is 3,000,000 psi. Surface tables only provide a consistently flat surface if they are correctly supported, which with the movable bench is nearly impossible to achieve without length adjustments every time you move it. Go with the simple two-bolt solution, it's a good example of less is more. Regards Phil ------- Re: Setting up lathes with cast iron legs [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "S or J" jstudiox~xxtbaytel.net Date: Fri Sep 8, 2006 10:57 am (PDT) Original post by: "Michael Darling" miked2002x~xxearthlink.net Date: Mon Sep 4, 2006 3:37 pm (PDT) >>My 10x24" TH42 has a set of cast-iron legs (with attached motor mount/ countershaft) bolted directly to the small legs that are mounted on the bottom of the lathe bed. I'd like to get this machine up and running in the next couple of months, and add a "table top" between the legs and lathe to put chip pans on and stuff like that. Does anyone have any advice on this? I've looked through some of the pics in the photo section, but still have a couple questions. Right now the lathe and legs are secured with fairly long 3/8" dia bolts. This seems rigid enough for a leg-to-lathe joint, but what about adding the thickness of a table between the two? Should the bolts be mounted through the same holes, or should I look to mount the top to the legs, then mount the lathe to the top with separate fasteners? I am not in a location where I can bolt the lathe to the basement floor - any tricks to stabilizing/and roughly leveling the machine? I know the fine leveling work is done with shims, but at the moment it just seems easier to build a nice, heavy cabinet to set the lathe on top of. -mike in NJ << Hi Mike: Today finally got my computer reconnected after a house move, so have just read your post. Some thoughts follow. I have a small 618 and do not have a set of cast iron legs for it, but have had similar setups for other machines. Personally those long narrow metal legs have not inspired stability and I have usually mounted the machines on sturdy benches of wood and/or welded metal construction. If the aim is to be true to the original, no matter what its faults or weaknesses, then keeping original is one approach. Another is to retain all original parts so an original setup can be sold with the lathe someday in the future. In the meanwhile adapt the machine to a bench that better suits your particular needs today. My 618 is mounted on a heavy welded cabinet, tapped on its steel top for the lathe and jackshaft/motor mounting bolts. Wooden enclosed shelves with cabinet doors on the front allow accessories to be stored out of the way, and shielded from chips and dust. Very heavy and rigid. One machine, where I had to keep the original legs so all factory accessories would fit, was a Shopsmith. There, a heavy plywood board was bolted 6" below the bed rails and serves to hold some of the accessories most often used. To increase stability, and dampen vibrations, a 25 pound bag of lead shot rests on each end of the board up against the leg. [Some cheap alternatives to shot bags are sandbags. Just remember to use dry sand and seal it in a sturdy bag that is in turn enclosed in a plastic outer bag to avoid moisture and rust --- and sand everywhere.] There have been a number of discussions on benches and shop ideas that you can find on my website in the general file Workshop Tips. There are also many lathe setup answers in the lathe section there, in a file called Atlas Repair or Fitting. Good luck Steve -- in Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ ------- Re: bench or board preference [sherline] Posted by: "David Clark" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Sat Dec 9, 2006 11:43 am ((PST)) > Experienced machinists, > What are the pros and cons of attaching my mill and lathe to a board > or directly to the benchtop? Portability is not an issue for me a > each has a dedicated plexiglas enclosure. Thanks in advance for your > insights. Scott Hello Scott, I much prefer having my machines on boards simply because I like the flexability of being able to rearrange the furniture as my workspace evolves. Also facilitates cleaning and occasionally maintainance. Board is handy for temporarily screwing down chip shields, worklights, indicator holders, misters, vacuum hose etc. And shock pads can reduce vibrations. On the mill, I find it is easier to adjust X backlash if I tip it on its side. DC ------- Re: bench or board preference Posted by: "Alan Haisley" alanhyx~xxadelphia.net Date: Tue Dec 12, 2006 6:58 pm ((PST)) Scott, I have my lathe mounted to a small workstand while my mill is mounted to a board. (3/4" MDF). It doesn't really answer your either/or question since in essence I sort of have one of each but, I have discovered that this thickness is not really rigid enough. Whichever route you take, make sure that the base is stable. In the case of my lathe, I have a metal plate "well screwed down" in front of it to use with a magnetic base dial indicator. With the indicator set up, I can make the dial move easily several thousandths plus and minus just by applying thumb pressure to different points on the work surface. Also, a material like I used is subject to "cold flow" under continual load and will eventually be warped. I intend to make a new platform for each tool and will probably use a "torsion box" construction to provide stability. Metal plates could be used, but they would be more expensive and probably outweigh the Sherline machines. Alan ------- Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 13:59:43 -0500 From: Jim O'Brien Subject: [OldTools] Conquering Clutter (Slightly OT...) ...but inevitably required reading. Gentle Galoots: Below is a link to a rather poignant article about dealing with "stuff" in general and specifically about down sizing as you (we) get older. I offer this because many of us are amassing fairly large assortments of things (i.e. tools) that are very useful/interesting to us, but perhaps of rather limited sentiment or utility to others. Mom & Dad are currently in circumstances that will have to change soon, perhaps against their wishes. It will not be easy to sort through a lifetime of collected objects and their attendant memories when it is time to down size. All this gave me pause to look at my own tool accumulations. Since I haven't concentrated on a particular item (e.g. plumb bobs, ivory rules, trammel points, etc.), or brands (Stanley, Fray, Preston, etc.), I've acquired a reasonably full complement of 18th/19th century woodworking tools for everyday use in a working museum. Not much in the way of NIB or NOS quality. This, of course, suggests an exit strategy some 20+ years hence if my health holds out, or sooner if it does not. With no children to leave my hoarded gems to, there is a chance to leave them to some learning institution, or at worst, disposing of them at auction. I think I prefer the former if there is a willing and appropriate recipient. In the years I have been on the list, we have seen the passing of members young and old, as well as the inheritance of family possessions into our stewardship. As 'keepers of the flame', we need to be conscious of maintaining a knowledge base that has taken centuries to accumulate while it is eroded by a popular culture that worships convenience and consumption. The first generations of EAIA, MWTCA, TATHS, and their like did a great service in documenting and preserving our industrial and craft history with their collective scholarship and acquisitions. Our challenge is somewhat different. As a group of mostly users, we need to build from their foundations to foster an appreciation of the manual skills of historic trades and the inherent value of what David Pye called the "workmanship of risk". People like us have made it possible for current manufacturers like Lie-Nielsen, Independence Toolworks, Lee Valley, and other custom makers to exist in today's economy that increasingly favors disposable objects. Keep your clutter, make it work for you, make plans to pass it on. Best of the season to everyone. Jim O'Brien Check out this link: http://www.aarpmagazine.org/lifestyle/conquer_clutter.html ------- Re: Exhaust fans, small space [sherline] Posted by: "navyshooter2" coffeex~xxns.sympatico.ca Date: Fri Mar 2, 2007 11:58 am ((PST)) "Charles Fox" wrote: > I'm trying to think up -- or find -- a small exhaust fan I could hook or set into an open window, that would exhaust the more toxic stuff I use (body filler seems to be the worst) outside and save my wife's health and my marriage. > Have you ever seen something that would do this? It wouldn't have to be huge, wouldn't have to fill the window -- just stick its nose out in the breeze. Power isn't vital, since I'm working in a small area, and usually only for a short time. > I'm thinking of trying to cobble together a mailing tube and some kind of fan, but thought I'd ask the Collective Wisdom first. > TIA Charles Fox Well, thinking back to my days building model airplanes and spraypainting them in my parent's basement, here's something I tried. Parts list: Big cardboard box (at least, one big enough to do your work in.) Section of dryer vent (plastic low-temp corrugated 4" hose is fine) Computer power supply fan ($12-15 at a surplus spot) Sheet of cardboard or plywood to fit in the window you plan to use. Roll of duct-tape. Step 1. Find a location; you need to be close enough to your window to get the dryer vent up to it. Set up your cardboard box on a table. Step 2. Punch a 4" hole in the side of the box, near the top for the dryer vent to come in. Step 3. Inside the hole, put your fan. You'll need to run the power cord out, and I found that using a small wooden mounting board that I screwed the fan to worked well. Tape or glue the board inside the box. Step 4. Cut a 4" hole in the window plate, and size the plate for your window's opening. Use duct-tape to attach the other end of the drier hose, and to attach the plate in place when it's being used. Step 5. Flash up the fan and test it. Spray some paint or do up a little epoxy job in the box to test it. If the box is too big, use a smaller box, or add another fan and duct going to the same window plate. When the box gets beat up, get a new box. Advantages: -Cheap -Simple -Parts easy to find/replace -CHEAP Disadvantages: -Not overly durable -Not overly durable So, there ya go. I wish I had a picture of what I used have setup, but that was in the days before digital cameras existed. Brad Browne ------- Re: Exhaust fans, small space Posted by: "David Clark" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Fri Mar 2, 2007 3:39 pm ((PST)) Hi Charles: Sounds to me like you need to make a fume hood. Trying to exhaust vapors from a whole room, even a small one, is not very effective. Fumes linger in the corners and under furniture where there's dead air. You need to get a laminar air flow going. I'd build a plywood or plexiglass box to sit on my workbench with a front opening about half the height of the box. Some clothes-dryer vent and a small squirrel cage blower should finish the job. DC ------- Re: Exhaust fans, small space Posted by: "Alan Haisley" alanhyx~xxadelphia.net Date: Fri Mar 2, 2007 3:58 pm ((PST)) Charles: If you go with an idea like Brad's here, I'd put the fan as close to the window end as possible. That should allow things like spray paint to dry before reaching the fan. From time to time, you will need to dust off the fan and motor, so make them easily (de)mountable for maintenance. Alan ------- Re: Exhaust fans, small space Posted by: "Jerry G" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Fri Mar 2, 2007 7:59 pm ((PST)) Hi Charles.....Google out "Squirrel Cage Fans"... Make a frame to mount to the window and to vent the air! They push a lot of air! Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Re: Exhaust fans, small space Posted by: "patmack_1" patmack_1x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 5:35 pm ((PST)) Check out the fan units from a refrigerator--usually comes in a frame about 6 inches square--I attached it to a vent hose from a dryer and exhausted out of a very large cardboard box -- mixed epoxy, sprayed paint, etc and fumes sucked out through the window. Fan way downstream allows particles to collect in the vent tube, fumes outside. ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following discussion of benchtop design for multiple bench tools came up in the Sherline group, but many of the ideas and health precautions are applicable to other small metalworking or woodworking tools. Some good tips here. ------- How large should my work surface be? [sherline] Posted by: "Ron OConnor" connor.rx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Fri Apr 13, 2007 11:12 am ((PDT)) Currently I have only enough space for either my lathe or mill on the work table at a time and I switch them as the need arises. It has finally become a big enough pain in my gluteus maximus that I want to have both my lathe and mill available at all times. I am thinking 2' by 4' with the mill (model 2000) on the left side and the lathe (model 4000) on the right. Does this sound large enough? Some of you may recall I had posted a query about mounting them on individual rolling carts. I'm thinking that the single unmoveable mount may be better. Since my workshop doubles as the utility room/washer dryer area, I am somewhat limited in space. As always, thanks for your thoughts/suggestions. Ron ------- Re: How large should my work surface be? Posted by: "Jerry G" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Fri Apr 13, 2007 2:00 pm ((PDT)) Hi Ron: How about a sturdy table for the mill on top, and a slide-out shelf for the lathe underneath? There are plenty of telescopic, heavy duty drawer slides, etc. Just an idea. Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Re: How large should my work surface be? Posted by: "Jerry Jankura" toolzngluex~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Fri Apr 13, 2007 3:55 pm ((PDT)) Hi, Ron: How did you calculate the space that you'd need? I'm curious whether or not you considered the following: 1. Did you consider the possibility of adding CNC to your machines? If not, I'd suggest that you add the length of a NEMA #23 motor to each of the dimensions in the 4' side. 2. Have you considered the possibility of adding either Sherline's or A2Z's extended length X axis tables and lead screws? If not, you might want to consider the extra length that either of these options might add to the required width. 3. How much space did you allow for your hands to turn the handwheel of either the mill or lathe (whichever has the other as a possible interference item? 4. What about space for tools and other items that inevitably find their way onto the benches? Jerry Jankura Strongsville, Ohio ------- Re: How large should my work surface be? Posted by: "Ron OConnor" connor.rx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Fri Apr 13, 2007 6:26 pm ((PDT)) Jerry, I worked it in the reverse. :) How much space do I have? 4 feet wide is no problem. 5 feet is too wide. A piece of 2' x 4' plywood is readily available. Now, will everything fit? I have figure if I set the lathe back a bit, there should be no interference. I've been wrong before. Thanks Ron ------- Re: How large should my work surface be? Posted by: "Brad Browne" coffeex~xxns.sympatico.ca Date: Fri Apr 13, 2007 6:46 pm ((PDT)) For my 4400 lathe (with the Milling attachment arm) I picked up a 3 foot length of countertop with backsplash. I glued/screwed some rubber pads of 1/2" rubber onto the four corners (4x4 inch squares of rubber, makes for some solid feet.) with a couple of more in the middle to provide support. I mounted the lathe base roughly centered, and it works great. I drilled holes in the backsplash and inserted tools into them, VERY handy to get to. (Hex keys, tommy bars, collets, etc) I also placed a strip of 1" flat bar stock on the countertop portion behind where the lathe goes, screwed at the center and each end, it's almost the length of the bed of the lathe. It lets my put a dial indicator on the table, and not interfere with the ways at all. Bonus to using the countertop is that the chips don't stick to it, the oil/tapping fluid/cutting fluid doesn't soak into it, and it's heavy enough that it doesn't MOVE when it's running on the bench. It's light enough that I can pick it up and move it over to the shelf when I need the work-space. Anyhow, it's about 3' by 2', with a 4" backsplash on it. Brad ------- Re: How large should my work surface be? Posted by: "Brian Pitt" bfpx~xxearthlink.net Date: Fri Apr 13, 2007 11:09 pm ((PDT)) Howbout stacking them? A low shelf for the lathe and you sit on the floor (with a cushion of course ;) and stand for the mill (or use a bar stool). Brian ------- Re: How large should my work surface be? Posted by: "Ron OConnor" connor.rx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Sat Apr 14, 2007 5:49 am ((PDT)) Durn youse guys is clever! Thank you very much. Ron ------- Re: How large should my work surface be? Posted by: "David Clark" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Sat Apr 14, 2007 6:48 am ((PDT)) Hello Ron: You might also give some careful thought to the height of your work surface. I'm just now recovering from surgery to remove a herniated cervical disk (extreme pain in the neck). My physical therapist tells me that this could well have been the result of years spent bent over my work. I've been warned to adjust my work area and habits to avoid having to bend my neck for long periods. (Mom was right, posture matters.) I've noticed that many traditional watch makers benches are very high; chest height when seated. I surmise this is the reason. As soon as I'm able, I will raise my work table and lower my stool accordingly. I expect it may take a little getting used to, but you may want to consider this. An ounce of prevention ... etc. Regards, DC ------- Re: How large should my work surface be? Posted by: "William Rutiser" wruyahoo05x~xxcomcast.net Date: Sat Apr 14, 2007 7:42 am ((PDT)) Ron: Here is a half-kneaded (not yet ready for half-baking) idea: Build a table with a top that flips around the centers of its left and right edges. Fasten the lathe to one surface and the mill to the other. The machine that's not in immediate use will be upside down under the table. You will need to remember to move your coffee cup and stow loose tools before swapping machines. Having the chips fall off might be a helpful feature rather than a problem. Don't take this idea more seriously than it deserves. Bill ------- Re: How large should my work surface be? Posted by: "Wayne Brandon" tiktokx~xxcox.net Date: Sat Apr 14, 2007 10:41 am ((PDT)) Ron & List: I'm usually too pressed for time to participate in this outstanding forum but I suspect yours is an important problem for many folks who would like to get into tabletop machining. Maybe Bill's idea is kneaded enough for serious consideration. You would need sturdy construction and a means for securely locking the surface in each position. About ten years ago Sears sold a work bench with a triangular structure in the top. A bench-top woodworking tool was mounted to each of the three surfaces. The tool you wanted to use could be rotated to the top. This and the other clever ideas such as Jerry G's rotating top and Brian Pitt's stacking idea deserve consideration. I like to do most of my mill work standing and most all my lathe work sitting so the stacking would work for me. Remember the secretary's desks with the typewriter shelf that pulled out then up and locked? You put the lathe on a shelf whose front could drop down enough to allow it to slide under the bench. Of course the rotating table is beautiful in its simplicity if dimensions work out and, as I'm dern'ed near 77, the rotating table at sitting height is very appealing. I strongly second David Clark's suggestion to pay particular attention to the height of your work surface. I am blessed with enough room that I have a 12 inch deep, 7 foot long shelf mounted on one wall. From left to right on the shelf I have an arbor press, a Sherline lathe, mini drill press, and a watchmaker's (WW) lathe. The shelf is 38 inches high which is a comfortable height for me to work standing. I have two stools, one the right height for the Sherline Lathe and a lower one that puts my face near the WW Lathe. Also, a word about stools -- sit on them. If you half sit and half stand, you can do a mischief to your back as a friend of mine did. So either sit or stand but not half and half. My Sherline Mill is on a separate workbench that is 37 inches high. It came that height from an estate sale. I can sit on a stool for set up and stand for cranking. Let us know what you finally design. Wayne Brandon ------- Re: How large should my work surface be? Posted by: "Tom Bank" trbankx~xxpaonline.com Date: Sat Apr 14, 2007 1:40 pm ((PDT)) Ron: My thought would be that 2' X 4' would be about right size for the lathe by itself. I agree with Brad Browne on the countertop business. That's what I did, but I have more like 8' of length, kitchen cabinets under the ends, with 3/4" plywood under the countertop the whole way and that supported by two 1" angle irons across the part between the cabinets. Now, since you don't have that much room, may I suggest you get a DIY kitchen cabinet catalog, such as Rockler, and look for the spring loaded lift up mechanisms that allow wives who still cook and bake to put one of these mid- to large sized Kitchenaid mixers in a lower kitchen cabinet and then pull it up into position in from of the kitchen counter to do her mixing when necessary. The ups and downs are smooth and easy. The only problem is that if you put the lathe on it (the lathe is low, narrow, and lighter than the mill, which would make it better suited to raise and lower). It would still add at least 50 percent to the width of your work surface. You could buy an extra piece of counter top and cut off the back half to bring it up snug to the front, or rig it to come up into position with the back of the rising top under the front edge of the main fixed position counter top that has the mill on it. I picked up my counter tops at either Lowe's or Home Depot from the scratch/dent stack. I think someone had ordered a kitchen, then decided he/she didn't want it, or it was possibly a model change situation, because what I got is very nice blonde wood pattern "formica." I wish you luck in your endeavor, Tom Bank ------- Re: How large should my work surface be? / Another Idea! Posted by: "Jerry G" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Sat Apr 14, 2007 6:32 am ((PDT)) Hi Ron: Don't discount this idea! Might sound off the wall, but it will work. Sherline says to mount the 4000 lathe to a board that is 10" by 24", and the 2000 mill to a board that is 12" by 18". Here is my idea: Either make rectangular boards with those dimensions or better yet, (in my opinion) cut two circular boards of 24" diameter and pivot either arrangement at their horizontal center so you can rotate the desired machine to face you. You can incorporate a shot pin to index that position. Can you picture that? You can add slots, holes for wrenches, etc..... Jerry G (Glickstein) P.S. Specializing in "out of the box" ideas..... :) ------- Re: How large should my work surface be? / Another Idea! Posted by: "Ron OConnor" connor.rx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Sat Apr 14, 2007 3:42 pm ((PDT)) Verrrrry interesting! Some sort of wheel arangement at the circumference, kind of like a railroad turntable. Maybe bring the power down from the ceiling and put a stop in so it can only rotate 180 degrees. Somewhat more involved than a slab of plywood. :) Thanks Ron ------- Re: How large should my work surface be? / Another Idea! Posted by: "Jerry G" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Sat Apr 14, 2007 3:54 pm ((PDT)) Hi Ron: You sound like Arte Johnson from the Laugh In TV series. :) Yes, the stop is what I meant by mentioning the shot pin. A taper pin would do it. Power can also come from underneath. Later, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- NOTE TO FILE: The discussion continued and can be followed further in the archives of the Sherline group at Yahoo. Another suggestion might be to make a dummy setup full size of the space involved. Start perhaps with a chalk outline on a garage floor or driveway, or perhaps a masking tape outline on the dining room table or floor if you-know-who is amenable. Cut out flat cardboard templates of the machines' footprints -- including overhanging parts and handwheels at full extension in all possible directions. Then move them around to find the best spacing, and also experiment where chip shields (if any) or other accessories could go. While you could do a small scale model with pieces of graph paper, or in a computer program, such may cause errors as to where full sized hands/elbows can safely fit while operating machine controls. ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following messages in the Sherline group were in reply to someone wanting tips on Sherline lathe or mill accessories. These messages here are generic and would benefit any metalworker or woodworker or other hobbyist; consider them as shop tips. ------- Re: What Sherline Accessories To Buy And When? Posted by: "David Clark" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Tue Oct 9, 2007 10:13 am ((PDT)) A few more "must haves" for setting up shop, that I don't think have been mentioned yet: Electricity: make sure that whatever household circuit is serving your shop can provide adequate current for all of your machinery running simultaneously. (I've tripped a breaker by switching on a vacuum cleaner in the next room during a 4 axis CNC job.) A dedicated 20 amp circuit is minimum. Make sure it is GFI (Ground Fault Interrupt) protected. Your computer and controller (ideally, all of your machining operation) should be connected to a UPS (Uninterruptable Power Supply) of sufficient capacity to weather temporary line glitches. Better still, enough capacity to keep going long enough for a controlled shut down in the event of a complete blackout or tripped breaker. Shop vacuum cleaner: is the most frequently run motor in my shop. A small, 8 gallon, wet-dry, doesn't take up much floor space and is very adequate. Lighting: can't have too much. I've got halogens in the ceiling, fluorescents over the bench, a lighted swing arm ring light and magnifier on the bench, and a couple of halogen desk lamps for spot illumination as needed. Optivisor, preferably lighted. (Develop the inflexible habit of reading the size marked on every cutting tool, every time you pick one up, I promise, sooner or later you'll be glad you did.) Carpet remnants: go to your local carpet store and pick up some scraps of light colored, short pile, carpet. Put a piece on your bench whenever you're doing assembly work, maintenance, anything but machining. Protects tools and hardware, helps keep things from rolling off onto the floor, makes little things easy to pick up, etc...etc... Rags; and a 10 gallon galvanized steel trash can with a tight fitting lid to contain oily rags and other flammable waste. Drawer organizers: from your local office supply store. Keep your tools organized. Also, keep one on the bench reserved for those tools and materials currently in use. This will save you a lot of time looking for that Allen wrench you just had in your hand and can't remember where you set it down. Most frequently used hand tools: Make a tool holder/organizer of some sort to go on the wall behind your bench. On it, keep a combination wrench and Allen wrench for every size fastener on each machine. Also several Tommy bars. Ergonomics: A really comfortable seat, of a height, in relation to the bench, that lets you work with your back straight. A soft floor mat reduces fatigue while standing to an amazing degree. Hope this helps some, DC ------- Re: What Sherline Accessories To Buy And When? Posted by: "David Clark" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Tue Oct 9, 2007 1:49 pm ((PDT)) David Wood wrote: > Great advice, David. I think too many of us get lost in the tools and accessories and disremember about physical and visual ergonomic comfort and about "a place for everything and everything in its place." < Thanks, just thought of a few more: Safety glasses; not only for yourself, but extras for anyone who might visit. A box of Kleenex, a roll of paper towels, and waterless hand cleaner. It is a Fundamental Law, deeply embedded in the Fabric of the Universe that, as soon as your fingers are covered with grime and metal shavings, one, of both, of 2 things will happen: You will develop an unbearable itch in the corner of your best eye. The telephone will ring. Be prepared. DC ------- Resiliant Mounting Material [MyMyford] Posted by: "gordon_frnch" gordon-frenchx~xxnetzero.net Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 6:44 am ((PST)) I wanted to put some kind of padding under the feet of my 60 gallon air compressor and went to the tool place. They wanted $14.00 US for 2 (two) pads. The compressor has 3 (three) so I looked around for something else. I found a material at a western and farm store that I think is used to line concrete horse stalls. The price was $4.00 a linear foot from a 4 foot wide roll. I cut up pieces from the piece I bought and plyed them 3 deep with pliobond (shoe sole glue). I don't know the name of the stuff, but you might try a farm store. Gordon, Roseburg, Oregon, USA ------- Re: Help - Need Bench Ideas for my 9 X 20 Lathe [mlathemods] Posted by: "David Halfpenny (h)" davidhalfpennyx~xxhotmail.com Date: Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:29 am ((PST)) "Paul Maples" wrote: > I would like to get some ideas from you guys on the different style > benches you have built for your . . . . lathe. A bit of general philosophy on what to do when you've got your lathe. The thing to grasp is that all lathes are bendy. Far more bendy than you would think when you come to lift them. Most hobby lathes are sufficiently bendy that you can alter the cut noticeably by leaning on the tailstock. Have you noticed how a lot of tiny precision lathes come with either a single foot, or a huge cast iron base? With a small lathe, you can get away with leaving it unrestrained. Like, in effect those lathes that cantilever off a single foot. That could mean just sitting on a flat surface, or it could mean using it on a flexible bench that will conform to the lathe, or it could mean putting it on a really solid bench but with resilient restraints that are just enough to stop it waltzing around. If a light lathe has four feet, beware: you can seriously mis-align it by bolting all four of them down to a surface that isn't true, perhaps in itself, or perhaps because it's on an uneven floor. In such a case, the lathe either needs converting to three-point support, or it needs setting up properly. With a big industrial lathe, it has to be set up properly, since gravity becomes a force to be reckoned with. I don't propose to give a blow-by-blow account as the text books have them, but here are three tricks of the trade. - Screw-adjustable feet. Can be as simple as a length of studding and four nuts per foot. Two nuts clamp the stud to the bench, one elevates the lathe foot, and the fourth clamps it down. - A precision spirit level. If both ends of the bed are dead-level, then it's not twisted. But don't even bother with a carpenter's level; this needs a screw-adjusting calibrated engineer's level. - A test bar. One option is a precision-machine bar that fits the headstock taper. Set up the lathe so that dial indicator on the cross slide doesn't wriggle when you traverse the saddle. Another is to turn down a long bar between centres, and set up the lathe so that it's the same diameter at both ends. Oddly, all this means that if your lathe is small and stiff, a light bench might be better than a very rigid one. But the best option will always be a stiff bench with a careful set-up, which is why those tiny Swiss lathes weigh a third of a tonne. David 1/2d ------- hobby/heating [barstockengines] Posted by: "Gary" garyp3202x~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 10:26 am ((PST)) I don't know others' situation, but I am having a hard time justifying the cost of the heat it takes to keep my shop warm enough to work out of. I am just itching for warm weather to get back to work. ------- Re: hobby/heating Posted by: "Brian Worth" electromodelerx~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 10:37 am ((PST)) Jeez Gary, wanna swap? It was like 38 deg C in the shade here on the weekend! (Durban South Africa) Regards, Brian ------- Re: hobby/heating Posted by: "Rob R." rroll99x~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 10:59 am ((PST)) I bought a couple of radiant heaters at Walmart that are the key to making my shop usable in the winter, at least when outside temperatures are above 20 degrees F. They're the type of heaters that heat objects, not the air. I think they might also be known as infrared or quartz heaters. They stand about 2 feet tall, and I keep one on top of my workbench, a little behind and to the side of my lathe, so that it helps keep my front, my hands and the headstock warm. I also have another one on the workbench behind me that helps keep my backside warm. These things use a lot less electricity than the kind that heat the air and blow it at you. I installed additional outlets for them that are switched off with the overhead lights, so they're not likely to be left on by mistake. It also helps (sometimes), that my shop is so small. It's basically a 12x10 foot area located at the back end of an extended single car garage, and it has a low ceiling because there is a storage loft overhead. I keep a tarp pulled across it to help conserve heat by keeping it separate from the rest of the garage. I also have a kerosene fueled salamander that I usually run for ten or fifteen minutes to blow the chill off the area when I first start working. In addition, I have a catalytic heater that mounts on top of a 20 pound propane tank. It can be safely run indoors if I need additional heat, although I have to take precautions so that it doesn't present a fire hazard. It probably costs me $1 to $3 per night to heat my shop, but I figure that's cheaper than going out drinking/shopping/bowling or whatever. I also figure that it's better to spend my time in the shop learning or doing something useful, than parked in front of the TV or surfing the web mindless on my computer. Rob ------- Re: hobby/heating Posted by: "Gary" garyp3202x~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 11:19 am ((PST)) Brian, I'll send you a UPS shipment of ice and snow for trade of warm weather! LOL! Rob, I like your idea with the quartz heaters but my shop is a three and a half car garage and all open inside. My dream shop would have heated floors. Once my feet get cold from the concrete, it is all over, I can't concentrate. No matter how warm it is inside, the concrete stays at 30 some degrees. Warm weather will be here soon enough. Gary ------- Re: hobby/heating Posted by: "Peter Thannhauser" peterthax~xxshaw.ca Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 11:41 am ((PST)) I have one of these natural gas infrared type heaters in my garage, installed similar to the pics. http://www.calcana.com/garage_gallery.html It has been great for a number of reasons: - it seems to warm anything with 'mass', the garage floor, your machines, your car (if your shop sanctuary must so be infringed upon). I use a conventional home thermostat, you can use program box just like a home unit. I just leave it on 15C & my liquid goodies stay liquid. - they are installed up & out of the way in typically dead space like the crotch of a wall/ceiling so you don't have to sacrifice shop real estate that should otherwise be occupied by a nice machine - no moving circulating air, so dust doesnt go round & round the room like a forced air system. And no ducting (although some nice little ceiling mount forced air systems are available these days at comparable cost). My buddy has set up a mini garage paint booth with this infrared heater, probably would make an OH&S person cringe but he hasnt blown anything up yet. - very few if any moving parts, so it is very quiet & should operate without incident for a long time. I live in the Canadian frozen wasteland, these units are very popular in hockey arenas, shops, manufacturing facilities etc. ------- Re: hobby/heating Posted by: "Rob R." rroll99x~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 11:45 am ((PST)) You're right about the floors. I also forgot to mention that I have 1/2- inch thick foam rubber interlocking mats on the floor that help keep my feet warm. Actually, I not sure what they're made out of, but they've held up well. I've seen them at BJ's Wholesale Club (in the US) for about $10, for four 2x2 mats. Mine are dark grey, but I've seen the same mats in bright colors for children's playrooms. Rob ------- Re: hobby/heating Posted by: "David Everett" deverett2003x~xxyahoo.co.uk Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 11:51 am ((PST)) Gary: why not insulate the floor? I have laid 2 x 2 battens across the shop every 16 inches and filled the gaps with polystyrene foam. On top of that, I have laid 3/4" chipboard and then a final cover of industrial grade vinyl. Warm on the feet, and there is no problem supporting the machines. (My milling machine weighs in at 1-1/4 tons bare.) Regards Dave The Emerald Isle ------- Re: hobby/heating Posted by: "Gary" garyp3202x~xxyahoo.com garyp3202 Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 2:01 pm ((PST)) That sounds like a workable answer. I have thought about sectioning off the 1/2 car part of the shop and dedicate it to the machine section. It would be easier to insulate and heat. I can't use wood due to health issues. The raised floor section would be ok in that area. That area also would be easier to cool with the brutal summers we get. Looks like a spring project! Thanks to all for the input. ------- Re: hobby/heating Posted by: "DA Dossin" danatlx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 11:53 am ((PST)) A. move into the basement B. wood or coal heat in the garage. ------- Re: hobby/heating Posted by: "kabr1" kabr1x~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 12:48 pm ((PST)) I surrounded the work area with canvas tarps from Harbor Freight so I just heat the work area. It works well here but it doesn't get that cold either. When it warms up I take the tarps down and stow them. Kevin ------- Re: hobby/heating Posted by: "DA Dossin" danatlx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Feb 5, 2008 2:12 pm ((PST)) Gary: Not sure of your situation but, don't put your shop on the north (winter winds) or west wall, for heating purposes. Of course, in the summer, you have the afternoon brutal sun. Guess that leaves the south and east wall. Best? Put your garage on rollers... or use the east wall. Dan ------- NOTE TO FILE: The question came up in the Metal_Shapers group as to what sort of stand users were using. This particular small size of shaper (and similar ones by several makers) falls roughly into the 200 to 300 pound range so a substantial stand is required. Similar size and weight machines (e.g. many woodworking table saws) could use similar solutions. One fellow put his stand on a set of heavy locking casters so the machine could be wheeled over to the side of the workshop when not in use. I did the same with a contractor table saw and it works out just fine -- so long as I remember to lock the wheels before using the machine. Make sure you do! The next solution gives mobility and a heavy duty stand with storage. If you can wait a while, such stands are frequently on sale at greatly reduced prices. And the lighter weight tool carts serve perfectly for storing supplies and tools for many other arts or crafts -- they may look a bit odd inside the house in a hobby area, but the usefulness is well worth it. ------- Re: Questions for South Bend 7" shaper users [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "js1160" js1160x~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Feb 25, 2008 8:35 am ((PST)) I have my shaper on a Craftsman 4 drawer wheeled tool cart. Works great and the drawer storage is a big plus. I'm thinking of making a box cover for it so I can use it for storage when the shaper is not in use. Make sure to get I-frame model and not the home-owner model as the I-frame holds more weight. ------- Opening a can of worms ? [taigtools] Posted by: "James Eckman" ronin_engineerx~xxcomcast.net Date: Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:28 pm ((PDT)) I found the perfect holders for small tools like taps are the plastic cartridge boxes they sell for reloaders. Harbor Freight has them, I suspect others do to. They come in various sizes. I used to use a wood block for taps and still do for some things but it offer no dust protection. Jim Eckman ------- Re: new member [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Jay Nugent" jjnx~xxnuge.com Date: Mon Mar 31, 2008 5:01 am ((PDT)) On Sun, 30 Mar 2008, windhovergrics wrote: > One question, really quite stupid, I suppose: how do you people heat > your (garage) workshops in a northern winter? I've been toying with > the idea of a natural gas HotDog, but wonder if a Unimat in my warm > kitchen might not be cheaper and equally good idea! Greetings, I have about 220 square feet of workshop partitioned off in the back of my garage. All the walls are standard 2x4 and filled with fiberglass insulation. All walls were then covered with large sheets of plastic to make the room as AIR TIGHT as possible. That's the key here, because air infiltration will lose more heat than you could imagine! The ceiling joists were made of 2x4's but have been extended down an additional 1-1/2 inches so I could squeeze some 6" thick insulation into them. Heat rises, so the ceiling insulation was quite important and I wanted as much as was practicle. Also remember to seal any ceiling light fixtures, plugs, etc. to control air infiltration. All wall surfaces were then dry-walled, mudded, and taped. Some surfaces had furring strips added and then Peg-Board mounted on them. Oh, and I added a rubber air-sealing strip to the air-gap at the bottom of the 30" wide door coming into the shop. Amazing how much air can leak through that gap! For the record -- there are *NO* windows in the shop. Glass, even good double-glazed thermo-pane glass, has an "R" value of about 3 (three). Ever wonder why windows use a *different* thermal rating system? It's because they suck so badly as insulators! No one would ever want windows if they realized how badly they lose heat. Besides, I need all my wall surfaces to hang tools, etc. And having no windows is good for security as I'm sure nobody here wants anyone eyeing our machine tool "treasures" and stealing them! Outta sight, outta mind. And yep, the garage and the shop are alarmed and have Rate-of-Rise fire detection, all tied in with the home alarm system :) The garage floor is concrete. If I had to do it over I would have poured a new concrete floor atop an inch or more of foam insulboard, and had PEX tubing inserted into the concrete. Then run warm water through the PEX tubing. Nothing beats radiant floor heating to keep your feet warm while working :) But since I didn't have the option of pouring a new floor, I covered the concrete with those 2-foot square interlocking foam floor pads. You can get them at Lowes, Home Depot, or Harbor Freight for about $8 for a pack of 4. This will cover about 16 suare feet. *THAT* has been the most effective way of making the shop comfortable in the Winter time!! The floor no longer radiates COLDNESS up at me and my feet appreciate it. If your FEET are cold, YOU will be cold! And believe it or not, metal chips don't get stuck in the foam. Even after they've been walked on. They sweep right up! So I was VERY pleased. On to heating. I use an oil-filled radiant electric heater. These look just like the old steam radiators found in very old homes. These heaters usually have TWO heating elements, so you can select your input Wattage. I leave mine set on 1500 Watts. There is also a thermostat that regulates the OIL temperature (do not mistake this as controlling the AIR temperature). Mine is generally set around the mid point and I can hear the heater turn on for about 5 to 10 minutes then off for about 20 to 25 on the coldest days. So it appears to be about a 20 to 33% duty cycle. I have run this heater for three Winters now (Ypsilanti, Michigan. next door to Ann Arbor) and have measured my power consuption with a watt-hour meter. The shop stays at a comfortable 60-65 degrees all Winter and costs me about $1 per day in electricity (and about $1.50 on the single digit days). I do have an extra electric heater I can kick on to take the chill off and push the shop up to 70+ degrees if necessary, but rarely do I ever need to. These energy costs closely equate to the same heating costs for my forced air furnace on the house -- taking the ratio of square footage into account. So I don't think I'm doing too badly. BTW - A good indicator of heat loss efficiency: does snow remain on the roof of your workshop? If you are leaking heat, the snow will melt. If you have all your leaks under control, the snow will stay on the roof :) Oh, and for the Summer months... I have an old discarded window air conditioner mounted through the wall. Since the shop is well insulated, I only have to run this for 10 minutes or so every hour to keep the place comfortable. I have a ceiling fan in the middle of the shop to keep the air circulating and well mixed, and I only use it in conjunction with the air-conditioner. No need to run it with the heater - further saving on energy costs. Hope this has helped. Stay warm. And make chips!!! Jay Nugent ------- Re: Vacuum for the shop, etc [sherline] Posted by: "DA Dossin" danatlx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Aug 8, 2008 12:05 pm ((PDT)) On Fri, 8/8/08, Charles Fox wrote: > Note, I am not looking for a "shop vac." I want something smallish, so I can transport it from work room to parking area easily. I want it as quiet as possible! I've already lost hearing to things like M-14s, tympanis behind me in the orchestra, and womens' voices. (Oh, that's bad . . . ) I don't need great cleaning power, but it has to be able to pull sawdust out of indoor/outdoor carpeting and sand out of a car trunk. All suggestions gratefully accepted. Thanks, Charles Fox < Charles, A. buy some shooters ear muffs or ear plugs. B. go to Home Depot or Lowes or your local hardware store and buy the smallest wet/dry vac they have ... best guess w/o looking ... 2 gallons. They are small, a bit noisy but, not that expensive. I had one on my boat, I abused for about 5 yrs before it stopped sucking and just made noises. I replaced it only this year. The one I have in my shop is the same size. I am satisfied with both. Per the noise ... in a normal home type shop, or even in a confined non running engine room, it is not too noisy. And in a running engine room, you will never hear the vac. Dan ------- Sherline in the Living Room [sherline] Posted by: "Karl Peters" krlpetersx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Sep 8, 2008 3:54 pm ((PDT)) Never ran my Sherline mill and lathe in the living room, but does the dining room come close enough? For most of the last four years, I lived in a one bedroom apartment, where my 'workbench' was also the dining room table. Don't have a picture of the arrangement; never thought to take one. Tools were stored in several machinist chests, along with a small supply of stock. Larger pieces of stock were in the hall closet, along with storage bins holding bulk supplies of screws, washers, etc. Both machines were mounted on prefinished shelving, and spent most of the time stored on an old bookcase, covered with the covers sold by Sherline. Keeping chips confined was the biggest problem. I had one of those clear plastic carpet protecters [sold for office chairs] on the carpet; a printer paper box behind the machine, and shields from light cardboard [former cereal boxes] helped to keep chips from flying all over the place. Frequent cleanups with one of those one-gallon shop vacs, kept the mess under control. At the end of the work session, the machine was given a good clean off, the plastic cover installed, and parked on the bookcase. Tools were put away, and then both the table and the floor were cleaned next. This took about fifteen mintues altogether. Parts for the project underway were stored in one or more of those snap- lock food storage containers, or kept in a former TV dinner tray. The vise was a small clamp-on one, which was fine for filing and light cutting. Heavier cutting and tool grinding were done at either my place of employment [I am a machinist] or at my sister's place nearby. Soldering was done with an iron, on a old baking sheet placed on the stove, except for the one time I needed a torch. That was done at my sister's. Most of the work I did were parts for my HO scale trains, along with some parts for a small launch engine. The arrangement was often commented on by my friends when they visited. Hopes this helps you. Karl Peters ------- Wintering tools in unheated shelters [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Jay Greer" redwitch1x~xxearthlink.net Date: Tue Oct 7, 2008 8:14 am ((PDT)) Hi Guys, I live in the Pacific North West where it is both wet and cold in the winter. I have a system that guarantees no rust on my tools. I have, in my shop, a vented wood burning stove. This draws moisture out of the room and sends it up the stack. When not in use, I have heat lamp I put in the fire box. I also use plug in dehumidifiers that are on the floor where moisture settles. Lastly, I coat my tools with a Japanese oil that is used to protect the blades of samurai swords. This oil, known as Camellia Oil, has the lowest acid content of any oil other than sperm whale oil and has been keeping my tools rust free for more than thirty years. Camellia oil is just what the name implies. It is pressed from the seeds of the black camellia bush. The Yamato family has had exclusive rights to it, by royal decree, for more than 300 years. Kept in a wick container it only takes a few seconds to apply a thin coat of oil to steel machine tables and individual tools such as chisels, saws and anything that can rust. The time taken to apply it is minimal. The results are well worth it! Camellia oil is inexpensive and a small bottle will last several years. It can be purchased from the Japan Woodworker. http://www.japanwoodworker.com/search.asp Jay Greer Boat Builder ------- Re: Cleanup [sherline] Posted by: "Pierre Coueffin" pcoueffinx~xxgmail.com Date: Sat Nov 22, 2008 8:05 pm ((PST)) On Nov 20, 2008, jptrueblood wrote: > Hello, > Received my brand new Sherline 4400 lathe in the mail, and got right > to machining. I quickly developed a love-hate relationship with an > inanimate tool. More hate than love right now. But I digress... > I have a question about cleanup. I have read all the posts about > coolant and lubrication (very informative), but when I am done > machining, the lathe is covered with an oily gritty combination of > shaving and lubricant and cutting fluid. In your experience, what is > the best procedure for end of day cleanup? > Shop vac, clean cloth wipe down, then re-lubrication? Thanks, Jeff I cut mostly dry, to reduce the mess. I add a bit of cutting oil, or kerosine, or whatever is appropriate on a finish pass if I think I need it, but I try not to make too much of a mess with it. I hate cleaning up that oily swarf. I recently cut a hole in the back of my bench (made from a door), and hung a garbage bag under it. I sweep swarf straight back into the bag. Then I pick up the board with the lathe on it and put it back on the shelf. I lube monthly or thereabouts. Usually around the day I sharpen my knives. ------- Re: Cleanup Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Sun Nov 23, 2008 12:36 am ((PST)) Hello Jeff: In my experience, one of the best all around cutting fluids (especially for aluminum) is pure isopropyl alcohol. An occasional squirt directly onto the cutting action from a laboratory wash bottle is all that's needed. Evaporates completely, and chips can be vacuumed up easily. Doesn't stain anything. May cause a white-ish discoloration on black anodized surfaces if left to stand in puddles. This does no harm, and wipes off easily. It's also a very good tapping fluid, again because it doesn't glue the chips onto the threads. What's sold in stores as rubbing alcohol is something like 50% isopropyl in water. Works OK, but doesn't evaporate as quickly. Your local pharmacist can order 99% pure isopropyl in one gallon jugs. Don't order it from McMaster-Carr. They'll hit you with a $60 USD hazardous material shipping charge. Guess how I know this. Best regards, David Clark in Southern Maryland, USA [NOTE: SEE CAUTION WARNING IN NEXT MESSAGES ABOUT SUCH USE OF ALCOHOL.] ------- Re: Clean up Posted by: "rsojerry" gfeldman2904x~xxpacbell.net Date: Sun Nov 23, 2008 2:14 pm ((PST)) Having ruined several door locks before I knew better, I totally agree with the comments about WD-40 leaving a gummy residue. Think of it as Vasoline disolved in a solvent. When the solvent evaporates - ugh. Regarding the use of pure or nearly pure isopropanol as a cutting lubricant and/or cleaning agent: USE CAUTION. Many alcohols are quite flammable, and squirting alcohol onto a hot cutting tool or near a running motor may lead to discoloration of the machinist. Jerry ------- Re: Clean up Posted by: "art1fish2" 1art2fishx~xxcomcast.net Date: Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:33 am ((PST)) Safety Warning. Alcohol is quite inflamable, also burns with no visible flame... alcohol dragsters and racers that catch fire, the driver only knows he's on fire when he FEELS the burn. Be careful that there's no open flame or sparks in the vicinity. Would hate to hear of someone burning up their project/lathe or themselves. Personally, I'll use low odor mineral spirits. It cleans very well and evaporates leaving no residue. Used it on my airplane engine and now on all my clock parts. Art ------- Re: Clean up Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Mon Nov 24, 2008 10:17 pm ((PST)) "art1fish2" wrote: > Safety Warning. Alcohol is quite inflamable, Hi Art: Using alcohol as a cutting fluid seemed risky to me too, at first. However, I've now used it, and seen it used, daily for over 30 years without a mishap. Most all of this time was at one of NASA's largest machine shops, where every procedure is documented and reviewed by health, safety, and environmental watchdogs. This was almost always on aluminum, though. I wouldn't use it "blue chip" machining steel. Isopropyl was the alcohol of choice because of contamination control requirements for spacecraft. I continue using it at home because I know it works well, and I don't like the smell of denatured alcohol. I think I pay about $30 US for a gallon at my local pharmacist. A gallon lasts me well over a year. I also like mineral spirits as a light cutting oil and all around cleaning product, but it seems to me it does leave a film -- sometimes a good thing, sometimes not. Best, DC ------- Re: Clean up Posted by: "Sevag Krikorian" sevag.krikorianx~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Nov 25, 2008 5:55 pm ((PST)) Just curious about the denatured alcohol. You say you don't use it but does it work just as well? Its price tag is 1/3 of isopropyl and I always have it stocked in my shop for other purposes. Just never thought of using it as lubrication before! ------- Re: Clean up Posted by: "R.L. Wurdack" dickwx~xxnwlink.com Date: Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:31 pm ((PST)) Denatured alcohol is mostly Ethanol, it's denatured to make it poisonous (undrinkable.) Isopropyl alcohol is a Proponol, by it's nature poisonous and therefore undrinkable. Ethanol boils at 78 C. Isopropyl at 82 C. Ethanol is a 2 Carbon alcohol and Isopropanol is a 3 Carbon alcohol. Ethanol is slightly hygroscopic (attracts water) and forms an azeotropic mixture with water (can't be 100 % separated from water by distillation.) Both are 100 % miscable (mixable) with water. Both are flammable. So much for pedantics - I've had better luck with Isopropanol. I think for a number of reasons like evaporation, viscosity, and less polar bonding it may have the edge - no pun intended... Beware of the fumes of either. Dick ------- Re: Clean up Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Fri Nov 28, 2008 11:31 pm ((PST)) Bill King wrote: > I hope I'm not straying too far off this thread topic, but I've recently run into a small problem that I'd like some input for. I've been machining plastic, aluminum and brass with no problem. They all clean up quite well with just a vacuum cleaner and a brush. recently I've branched off into steel. 12L14 - wonderful stuff. My question is how to deal with the flakes my mill puts out. I would have never guessed I've got so many magnetic tools! < Hi Bill, I don't have any really novel ideas on this. Sometimes I clamp or hold the nozzle of my shop vac near the cutter when I'm doing something that will throw a lot of chips. Also when I'm milling a deep hole or pocket, to avoid re-cutting the chips which can make for a bad finish. To contain chips, I have an assortment of screens I've made. I cut a slot along one side of a piece of 2x2 wood with my table saw, then glue in a sheet of clear acrylic. I make these screens anywhere from around 10 inches to a couple of feet square and just place them on or around the machines as needed. Some have cut outs at the bottom so they straddle one axis. I like this approach better than making a more permanent enclosure because it's fast, cheap, and easy. The screens take up little storage space, can be quickly made in any size or shape needed, and aren't in the way when you need to clean, adjust, or re-configure the mill. I'll post some photos when I get home. DC David Clark from Southern Maryland, USA temporarily in Munich Germany ------- Re: Clean up / Chip Shields Posted by: "chieftoolmaker" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Sat Nov 29, 2008 6:25 am ((PST)) Hi Dave: Shields like you describe are available commercially with magnetic bases. A simple steel plate on the Sherline will do the job of holding them. And I have a unique way of excluding chips that I devised many moons ago. Might work for the Sherline if anyone wants to try it. The problem? We had eight production lathes (Tarex made in Switzerland) set up to machine parts for mortar fuses. The operator would place a part in the chuck (Northfield Air Chucks, known accuracy in millionths), close a switch to clamp the part, and then press two buttons (for safety) to start the cycle. Was a wet operation with flood cooling. Produced a lot of sludge/swarf...which found its way into the machine slides/bearings. So, every Saturday, we, the toolmakers in the satellite back up shop for the production floor, were assigned to clean the lathes by disassembling the table (X axis) and head (Y axis) to remove the chips, and relube the bearings -- roller bearings held in a cage at 90 degrees to each other. Here is what I came up with for a trial. I enclosed the table and head within a pliable plastic "Bag". Fed low pressure compressed air into the bag with a 1/4" polyflo tubing fitting attached to the bag. Taped off from the regular shop air and used a regulator to reduce the pressure. Just enough to lightly inflate the bag and exclude any debris/foreign matter. Worked so well, it was introduced on all the eight Tarexes once proven....What did I get for my idea? More work, of course..... :) Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Re: Clean up -- some suggestions [sherline] Posted by: "William Rutiser" wruyahoo05x~xxcomcast.net Date: Mon Dec 1, 2008 11:37 am ((PST)) Cleaning up is a lot easier and quicker when the chips are controlled as soon as possible after they are generated. Since every situation is a little or a lot different from every other, there are no universal solutions. Industrial practices such as high volume flood cooling and lubrication with magic substances that are collected and filtered for reuse aren't practical for a hobbyist using a Sherline machine. Also the physical size and reconfigurability limits what can be done with way and leadscrew covers. Some things to try: Frequently brush chips away from the slides and screws. Collect brushes of different sizes and shapes -- cheap paint brushes, old tooth brushes, whatever. Don't hesitate to modify them for particular uses. So called "acid brushes", sold in plumbing departments for the application of soldering fluxes, are surprisingly versatile. Shorten the bristles for a stiffer brush. Cut the bristles diagonally to get into the dovetails. Bend one at a right angle to brush out chuck threads. Consider cleaning up after each cut or slide movement. Use scrap cardboard, corrugated or cereal box, and masking tape to improvise chip deflectors and collectors. You may develop a collection that are repeatedly useful. There are several designs for way covers semi-fixed way covers. Double stick tape is one way to hold them in place. These can be as simple as a piece of cardboard sized for a particular setup or elaborate bellows or telescoping devices. While I haven't done this yet, I think several small tapped holes carefully placed on the front and back of the mill saddle would greatly facilitate cover installation. Sherline machines are largely aluminum so there are fewer places to use magnetic holders. Some users add a steel plate of one sort or another to the machine's mounting board. There are a few screws that are useful to secure things. My mill has a 1/2 in square bar with some threaded holes secured by the longer than stock screw that holds the lower motor mount to the spindle. This is used to hold a dial test indicator, a magnifying lens, etc. A small shop vacuum cleaner is very useful. Also a pair of hearing protectors. Special nozzles and holders can be improvised or carefully constructed. I try to use mine only for metal chips and not general dust and grunge and empty it frequently. This makes it much easier to find a tool or part that has been sucked in by mistake. Cleaning tools and supplies get dirty and eventually must be cleaned or recycled. Generally the result will be no cleaner than the tool. Consider multi-stage schemes. For example, three rags. Wipe off as much as possible with the oldest and dirtiest rag, then use the second oldest rag followed by a nearly new rag for the final wipe. When the clean rag is no longer useful, promote(demote) to second cleanest, and the second cleanest to third. Some discipline is needed to keep the rags, brushes, or cans of solvents from getting mixed up. Be careful using cloth around rotating machinery. A rag placed on the lathe bed to collect debris from sanding is only a good idea until it catches in the chuck and distributes the grit to all the places you didn't want it to go. Having a hand holding a polishing rag snatched into the works will ruin your day or week or month or ... Weak paper products may be somewhat safer but they will still spread the mess around. Bill Rutiser ------- Recommended Bench Top Thickness for a 12 X 36 Lathe? [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Wayne" outlawmwsx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Dec 5, 2008 2:33 pm ((PST)) Steve wrote: > You can't make it too thick. When I was going to build a bench, I was > going to screw 2x4's together on the sides for a 3-1/2" thick base and > then cover that with thick plywood. I completely agree with the thought that there is no such thing as a bench to too strong. I have built several heavy work benches using the upright 2x4 method, using several methods for getting the 2x4's into a solid mass. All worked well: o Gluing and nailing (construction green sinkers have heat activated glues and won't come out) o Gluing and deck screws. Very fast. o And drilling the 2x4's for all thread, which is used to pull the 2X4's together during the gluing process. On that one I counter bored the outer holes to recess the nuts and washers. For a top work surface, a Formica kitchen countertop is hard to beat. My current regular work bench has this top (My Craftsman/Atlas lathe and Clausing mill have the factory metal base), and the vise on it is my second biggest. (Haven't found anything big/strong enough to mount the big one on.) The raised outer lip is accounted for by using a washer under each mounting boss on the vise. The raised outer lip and backsplash prevent spilling off the front edge or losing parts out over the back edge (and behind the bench). The surface is easy to clean (409 or simple green works great), and it can be used for heavy work, especially the vise. The only issue I've ever had with this bench is I was really putting a load on the vise a while back, and tore the bench top loose from the wall. This was not an issue with the top, I just didn't anchor it to the wall strongly enough! I've also laminated several pieces of plywood together, and laminated masonite on top of that. It was OK, but not nearly as well made, long lasting, or as inflexible as the home made glue lam from 2x4s. A base is easily made using 2x4's and half lap joints (two precise skill saw cuts for the outer edges, then a lot of fast cuts spaced out, and the scarf pops out fast and easy) also glued and screwed. A 1/4" plywood back and sides and it will be about a rigid as a bench can be. Outlaw ------- Recommended Bench Top Thickness for a 12 X 36 Lathe? Posted by: "moondogt120" moondogt120x~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Dec 5, 2008 4:00 pm ((PST)) I used a solid core oak venered door, cut to size. Commercial door which is 2" thick. It was used and going to be thrown out. I put several coats of varnish (poly) top bottom and all edges, secured to a steel work bench. Mike ------- Re: Recommended Bench Top Thickness for a 12 X 36 Lathe? Posted by: "Rexarino" rexarinox~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Dec 5, 2008 6:16 pm ((PST)) Bernie, I have a different approach. If the vertical and cross-braced framework of the bench are close to the lathe mounts, and if the frame is very heavy or bolted to the floor, I don't think it matters how thick the top is. The only time top thickness matters is when the legs and braces are far from the lathe mount points, or the bench isn't sturdy. In other words, what matters is how well you constrain the lathe from twisting and moving, not how much wood you use in your bench. Good stiff design matters more than the top. rex ------- Re: Recommended Bench Top Thickness for a 12 X 36 Lathe? Posted by: "Michael Michalski" pflatlynex~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Dec 5, 2008 9:21 pm ((PST)) A thinner top will vibrate more. That can mean anything from noise to acutally measurable deflection. I've discovered that the 1" top on mine, even though it's reinforced by an extra 2x4 is simply not thick enough. I plan on adding either an extra 1" piece of plywood glued and screwed to the top, more 2x4 supports, or both. ------- NOTE TO FILE: The way to mount a lathe or other machinery is a fairly common topic of conversation in the various machinery discussion groups. For the bench top we get many varied suggestions about laminated sheet goods, or solid heavy timbers, or thick metal plates, or even discarded (never used) tombstones, or granite offcuts from kitchen countertop companies. The following posting has some history behind it and offers a practical low cost solution. I hope anyone building it never has to pay the weight costs if moving across the country. ------- Re: Three Hole Lathe Mount [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "PeterH" peterh5322x~xxrattlebrain.com Date: Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:10 pm ((PST)) On Jan 21, 2009, at 12:01 PM, Rexarino wrote: > If I had access to granite of a size for my 12 x 36, I would laminate > the pieces together with silicon caulk for additional damping. Consider this alternative: From a long-ago post of Carla's to Paula's many-pages-long saga of her South Bend 9A restoration project (which see). This info has historical value independent of its 9A association, so I'm providing a place for it here. The concept is applicable to any small engine lathe regardless of manufacturer, and can produce a very good turning tool, capable of fine work. The origin is a 1942 War Production Board bulletin, which has apparently been lost to history, but is well paraphrased by Carla. All the following text is Carla's. Thank you, Carla! The original thread is: http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb...d.php? t=128005 >> Well, I'm very impressed with your exquisite restoration work on the little South Bend. If I may, I'd like to offer a suggestion about setting it up on a bench, one which may seem a ludicrous amount of work at first hearing, but really is worth the amount of work it takes to do. First, tho, the background.....in early 1942, our government, and the 'War Production Board' in particular, was in quite a panic, to get volume production of many different sorts of war materiel items on line. One of the many 'bottlenecks' was the capability for manufacture of small, but very close-tolerance, turned parts. The optical equipment manufacturers, particularly, were over-whelmed with demand for parts which had, historically, been made on Hardinge and Rivett bench lathes, with tight turn dia. tolerances, and fine threads which had to be single-pointed to gage. One answer to this demand was to 'enlist' the many older small lathes held by thousands of small automotive shops and in private shops, by setting them up for tight-tolerance, high-finish work. The War Production Board issued a pamphlet describing this procedure, of which I had a copy, years ago (yes, I know, I should have had copies made, foolish me) Given an unworn small lathe, like the South Bend, the 'secret' to getting it to produce high-quality work lay in providing a suitable 'foundation' for the machine. The WPB pamphlet had drawings of the base design with they found to be the best system, a 'monolithic' casting of poured concrete. This involved first making up a plate of suitable size, with drilled or drilled/tapped holes for the lathe's mounting bolts. This plate was, preferably, 1/2" or thicker steel, but could be a suitable piece of hard maple plank, well sealed against moisture with spar varnish. The concrete base would be cast upside-down, with the lathe base forming the bottom of the pour. A simple plywood form would be built, with radiused internal corners of sheet metal tacked in, a near-vertical front edge with a bit of a recess for toe-clearance in the centre, and a suitable angle to the back to allow for a wide stance on the floor. The form would be provided with a suitable pattern of 're-bar' to strengthen or stabilise the base. Care would be taken to have the board or plate for the lathe level, before the pour, and then the top of the pour, which would be the bottom of the finished base, would be finished level and smooth, creating parallelism with the top. After the concrete cured, which would take two weeks to a month, owing to the thickness of the concrete, the forms would be stripped, the base turned upright, moved to its intended position, and provided with a three-point mounting of three thick, dense industrial rubber 'biscuits' suitably arranged, the same idea as the three-point mounting of a granite surface plate. With the lathe firmly bolted down to this very heavy base (with shims as needed to take any twist out of the lathe bed), the great damping mass of the heavy base greatly strengthened the lathe itself, in terms of removing vibration and resonances. The next step was to re-position the motor and countershaft to isolate it from the lathe. The motor and c'shaft might be mounted on the wall or on a bench or pedestal behind the machine, or mounted on the ceiling, if the ceiling height was low enough, as in a basement. (back during the war, many basement and garage shops ran three shifts making small parts....often, the housework would be neglected, and meals done 'from a tin', as home-makers spent their days, and evenings was well, making parts for the war effort.......an older gentleman I knew, years ago, had a job for awhile as a driver for a manufacturing firm, in which he 'made the rounds' of quite a number of basement/garage shops, picking up parts, and leaving dwgs/material for more parts) Anyway....if you can see your way clearly to investing the time and work involved in setting your South Bend up per the 1942 WPB specs, you will be well and truly impressed with the way in which it will do close-tolerance, high-finish work, much more easily than if it were set up on the common sort of bench which won't inhibit resonances in the same way that heavy base will do. I've been shown a few of these machines which were set up with heavy bases this way, and have operated a couple of them myself, one, in particular, which impressed me, was an early '30's 13" South Bend, probably one of the last of the 13" South Bends to be built as a 'bench lathe'. That one had been re-fitted and scraped-in during the war sometime, and was competitive with an EE Monarch or HLVH Hardinge for quality of work.....with certain limitations, such as lead-screw lead accuracy, to be sure. The plain-bearing spindle of a South Bend, set up correctly, is every bit as good for roundness and workpiece finish as is the EE or a Hardinge. (the lead accuracy of an unworn South Bend leadscrew is plenty good enough for the generality of the short thread lengths common in optical work) In practise, its owner made good money on it, making up lots of small parts which would have otherwise been run on a far more costly machine....it was a truly excellent example of practical cost- effectiveness. << ------- Re: Three Hole Lathe Mount Posted by: "Rexarino" rexarinox~xxgmail.com Date: Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:44 pm ((PST)) Thanks Peter, I read and remember that post. I'm too busy playing with a functional lathe to want to tear it apart and build a new stand, but I wanted to add a suggestion of a way to laminate granite, so I used my circumstances as a basis for suggestion. Despite the arguments I've heard about concrete being non corrosive to steel, I've seen evidence that appears to contradict that, so I'm not, personally, buying in to concrete as a lathe cabinet. Besides, If I built a solid concrete base for my lathe, I'd have to add on to a very full shop just to store the stuff underneath and behind it. I have a "TV" shelf mounted on the floor, that pulls out on drawer slides and holds all my chucks. Above that is the bottom shelf for the cast iron legs, which is full pretty much 2/3rds of the way up to the top shelf which holds the lathe, trays, and a bunch of tooling on the shelf that extends back to the wall. Come to think of it, I've got about as much mass there as concrete would give me... Thanks for bringing that information back into the discussion, Peter! Rex ------- Re: Three Hole Lathe Mount Posted by: "Michael Michalski" pflatlynex~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Jan 21, 2009 7:01 pm ((PST)) That changes my plan slightly. I am going to home depot right now to get some concrete. I have the "typical" 2x4 bench with a frame around the top to which a 2'x4' 1" plywood top is screwed. What I am going to do is take that top off,and screw it to the underside of that tray leaving a 4" deep "tray" which I will fill with concrete. Ive calculated this should weigh well over 300lbs. Since I rent I will eventually want to move it. My plan is to simply hit the concrete slab repeatedly with large hammer,throw the shattered concrete away,and pour a new slab at the destination. What is missing is isolating the motor and counter shaft from the lathe. What I will do for that is to take a large concrete brick and mount the countershaft and motor to that. That will be mounted to the table through rubber shock mounts. While not quite as good as a steel frame and mounting the shaft to the wall,it should be more than adequate for my usage. ------- Re: Three Hole Lathe Mount Posted by: "Michael Michalski" pflatlynex~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Jan 21, 2009 7:01 pm ((PST)) I just got back from Lowes with 360lbs of concrete in the back of my car. I was planning on sealing the top with a coat of epoxy, so corrosion won't be an issue for the lathe, just the bolts that pass through that I don't care that much about. My stand will be wood with a 320lb concrete slab on top. I'm just going to change it around so I have a sort of tray in the top, basically screw the bench top to the bottom of the 2x4 frame instead of the top. I'll still have the shelf underneath. I considered the idea of a solid base a while ago, but really, it's not really necessary. If you wanted all concrete, for instance if you're a civil engineer in your day job ;-) , you could do a park bench style with concrete legs, but it seems like too much work. I'm thinking the best way would be a steel frame (which I don't want to bother with at this time) and a concrete slab poured in place. After thinking about it, I'm sold on concrete over granite. After all concrete is just synthetic stone, and it's a lot cheaper and easier to work with. As I said earlier, I have thought about what I will do when I need to move it. If it was 400lbs of granite, I would have a lot of trouble, but with concrete I'll just shatter the top with a sledge hammer and repour it. ------- Re: Gone ? and other stuff [mlathemods] [benchtops for lathes] Posted by: "James W. Early" j.w.earlyx~xxworldnet.att.net Date: Wed Feb 25, 2009 6:02 am ((PST)) > Changes in humidity will likely cause the 2x4 laminated base to > expand and contract, causing the thin epoxy/granite top to flex or > break. A thicker top poured over an isolation membrane may protect it > from the wood. I have been using benches based on the concepts from this pamphlet for more than 30 years now with great success. http://www.strongtie.com/ftp/fliers/DIY-PROJECT08.pdf [NOTE TO FILE: Pamphlet describes Simpson Strong-Tie® Utility Connectors which strongly lock all wood joints in the frame from racking/wiggling. They can be found at Home Depot and perhaps other hardware stores.] If desired I can put up the photo sequence from equipping my garage and work room with these benches over the last 10 years. All that is needed is 2x4 construction carefully cut and built level with a 3/4" plywood top. Now I also use aluminum flashing for the work surface with angle trim to keep oil out of the wood and easy to keep clean of chips. Reasonable price and sturdy. There are also some commercial sheet metal frame tool box type benches with thick maple tops at reasonable cost to mount your machines on. There are people who would have you build a granite plinth to mount your machine and this is simply not needed in any case. Even a decent set of kitchen cabinets with storage drawers will do a fine job with a good plywood top. JWE Long Beach, CA ------- Re: Gone ? and other stuff Posted by: "James W. Early" j.w.earlyx~xxworldnet.att.net Date: Wed Feb 25, 2009 6:12 am ((PST)) > If I were you, I would reconsider the epoxy thing and instead look at > a stone top. I thought of the the same epoxy top as you, but for my > kitchen island top. A kindly craftsman told me that the epoxy can get > quite hot while curing and give off some serious fumes too. Flatness > is not a sure thing with epoxy that is that thick. > After you get a stone (granite, corian or other) top, use the epoxy to > to bond it to the 2x4's. Cheers, Bill in Longmont The problem with stone, concrete or any other material of this type is they are a subject to distortion from heat or humidity as plywood is. All benches depend for strength and alignment on their supporting structure and a 3/4" plywood top on a 2x4 or particle frame like a set of kitchen cabinets will be just as sturdy and more functional than a welded steel bench would be. I have worked with all of them over the years and prefer the wood ones although I do have a nice wood top metal one I got some years ago from HF for an island setup in the middle of my garage. JWE Long Beach, CA ------- Re: got my lathe [now about workbenches] [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Wayne" outlawmwsx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:20 am ((PDT)) Rob Hodge wrote: > went out and bought the 1935 12x36 atlas with a sall set of tooling > for $600. SNIP i have to build the bench tomorrow for it.. > probably build it out of 4x4 post lumber with a 1" to 2" thick > hardwood plywood top. SNIP I agree a 1" ply top is inadequate it will flex and/or vibrate. You want a laminated top with added stiffeners. This had been discussed at length and several are proponents of cast concrete tops. I'm not one of them since I feel it is too permanent. Here was my take on it from my experiences in those discussions: Work benches Short of the concrete, granite and buy options, there are a lot of options for benches for any power tool, be it lathe, small mill, drill or what have you. For some, portability needs and ease of moving or rearranging make the ultra heavy benches a poor option. I've made laminated plywood topped benches and didn't like them. A combination of 2x4s on end, glued and screwed, with a decent top to smooth it. (Plywood topped with masonite works, but I prefer Formica kitchen counter top with a backsplash far better.) The combination of the 2x4's and laminated top make this very stable and not very prone to vibration. If you really want it to be dead, I suppose you cold frame it hollow, and fill with sand, but that seems like more trouble than it's worth. This can be placed on a purchased base, or a made base of 2x4's, 4x4's and sheet ply on the backs and sides for stability. The key to a stable case is glue and screws used together. Another good option is an old (Heavy) office bench from the 50's and early 60's before they went all lightweight. These have the advantage of Linoleum faced tops and good drawers for storage. They might be a tad low, but can be raised by setting them on 4x4's or 6x6's laid front to rear, with pockets for the legs to sit in. Any of these can be anchored to the shop wall studs for added stability. A good source of hardwood for those that want to make a bench along the lines that Atlas recommended way back, is pallet wood. A surprising number of pallets are hardwood, and some can be exotic. I have quite a bit of 2x6 and 2x8 hardwood that I have not been able to identify, but this stuff is the hardest wood I have ever worked with. I keep it to make semi permanent fixture type stuff. You don't find this grade very often but more ordinary oak and the like gets used for this quite a bit. Outlaw ------- New Tool......... an USB mini-microscope! [sherline] Posted by: "Mike Bauers" mwbauers55x~xxwi.rr.com Date: Fri May 8, 2009 7:10 pm ((PDT)) I'm on a good number of quite different lists, so this will be seen on a few of those. I'm a bit of a tool buff and ... I just stumbled upon at my local hobby shop, and brought home, a $35 egg of a microscope that plugs into the USB port of both Windows and Mac computers. I've long wanted a 'scope to check out if my tools were chipped, just dull-edged, or even ground off-center. I have found more typical- looking computer microscopes that sold for $100 and more. So I just never broke down and bought one. It's a conservative 35-x magnification, which is fine enough for the tools, printing, trying to discover one more tiny detail in an image, and modeling uses I want to use it on. It's a tool that will be darned handy for me. I had one start-up problem, the size of the cd they include with the package. It's a mini-cd and as such is -DANGEROUS- to use with a slot- loading cd/dvd drive. The mini-cd's will fly loose in one of those newer drives and jam in the mechanism. I've seen warnings about using the like in that kind of drive and a bunch of complaints over the years from people that learned they had to have their computer serviced to get a mini-disk out of the slot-dives. Wouldn't you know it, my last three computers only had that sort of slot-feed cd/dvd drive. So if your computer has a slot-load drive, don't risk putting one of the smaller mini-cd's into it. I emailed the maker for a link to download the software and they returned an email with the link to it, to me in only a few minutes. That is somewhat buried on their product page. But thankfully it's there to get around the mini-disk they package. The zOrb comes in three different colors. My hobby shop had an Orange one. I think I actually bought it before they had the chance to put it on their shelves. I probably would have chosen the same color if the store had more of them. I like having high-visibility tools that are easier to find around the house and workshop. The product link...... http://www.carsonoptical.com/Pocket_Microscopes/Pocket_Microscopes/MM-480O And a short video of it in use. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7Ij8URBdZA Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi ------- Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 14:35:18 -0400 From: Anthony Seo Subject: Re: [OldTools] Re: Bench Top Materials I've just kinda breezing through all the messages on this and just figured it was time to add my usual bit of nonsense. I guess it really boils down to, are you building a work bench or a glorified piece of furniture to play on? The bench is a tool for holding the work. And like any other tool, as it gets used, it gets some wear. And a bench by its purpose in life, usually picks up a lot more wear than some other tools. Chisel dings and plane scuffs, saw scrapes, the odd mallet bump, (yeah and even the stray "bullet" hole from a nail or drill bit lead screw). Glue and paint drips, rings from beverage cans and bottles. Stuff happens. My bench top is oak. 4 pieces of (originally) 4 x 6 red oak destined for the land of the pallets. Glued and held fast with 3 pieces of threaded rod. They weren't completely dry when I did this, and it's shrunk down to 22 5/8" from it's original 24" and about 3 7/8" in height. Has a bit of a hump in the center which partially is from the threaded rod, as the boards shrank, I kept tightening them down. And it has all kinds of the aforementioned patination going along with a bunch more. Unless I'm not here for the day, which is rare, not a day goes by that I'm not doing something "productive" on it. It works for me. And when I ever get around to doing some more woodworking, well it will still work fine for that as well. Back to the wood thing here. I have seen a number of original benches where the first 6 to 10" were oak for the dog holes and the surface where most of the work is done and the rest of the bench was some other wood, chestnut or pine. If anyone is around where they are tearing down an old factory or railroad building from around the end of the 19th or early 20th Century, a lot of times the floor joints were yellow pine that is about as hard as any oak. My one BIL took down an old railroad building on a contract and salvaged a bunch of 2 x 14 floor joists that were 24 ft long! They are now his roof trusses at his house. Once you get all the "history" off of them, that would work just fine for a workbench top as well. And yeah, I know, I'm here on the East Coast where this stuff is still to be had but out in the Midwest and even the Left Coast there has to be some of it around. Don't discount pallet runners either, especially those for heavy or long machine parts. The KME fire engine plants here get them all the time and aforementioned BIL takes them home, saws them up and into the wood stove they go. Now if you are building a glorified piece of furniture to play on, well I can't much help there. But I will close with something I have said on more than one occasion but it always bears repeating and that is "if you are using a micrometer to build a workbench, you are doing something seriously wrong". Tony (waiting for the rain in PA) Olde River Hard Goods http://www.oldetoolshop.com ------- Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 20:48:53 -0500 From: David Wittner Subject: [OldTools] Tools Explained Very interesting stuff courtesy of brother in law #2. DGW DRILL PRESS: A tall upright machine useful for suddenly snatching flat metal bar stock out of your hands so that it smacks you in the chest and flings your beer across the room, denting the freshly-painted project which you had carefully set in the corner where nothing could get to it. WIRE WHEEL: Cleans paint off bolts and then throws them somewhere under the workbench with the speed of light. Also removes fingerprints and hard-earned calluses from fingers in about the time it takes you to say, "Oh, sh*t!" SKILL SAW: A portable cutting tool used to make studs too short. PLIERS: Used to round off bolt heads. Sometimes used in the creation of blood-blisters. BELT SANDER: An electric sanding tool commonly used to convert minor touch-up jobs into major refinishing jobs. HACKSAW: One of a family of cutting tools built on the Ouija board principle... It transforms human energy into a crooked, unpredictable motion, and the more you attempt to influence its course, the more dismal your future becomes. VISE-GRIPS: Generally used after pliers to completely round off bolt heads. If nothing else is available, they can also be used to transfer intense welding heat to the palm of your hand. OXYACETYLENE TORCH: Used almost entirely for lighting various flammable objects in your shop on fire. Also handy for igniting the grease inside the wheel hub out of which you want to remove a bearing race. TABLE SAW: A large stationary power tool commonly used to launch wood projectiles for testing wall integrity. HYDRAULIC FLOOR JACK: Used for lowering an automobile to the ground after you have installed your new brake shoes, trapping the jack handle firmly under the bumper. BAND SAW: A large stationary power saw primarily used by most shops to cut good aluminum sheet into smaller pieces that more easily fit into the trash can after you cut on the inside of the line instead of the outside edge. TWO-TON ENGINE HOIST: A tool for testing the maximum tensile strength of everything you forgot to disconnect. PHILLIPS SCREWDRIVER: Normally used to stab the vacuum seals under lids or for opening old-style paper-and-tin oil cans and splashing oil on your shirt; but can also be used, as the name implies, to strip out Phillips screw heads. STRAIGHT SCREWDRIVER: A tool for opening paint cans. Sometimes used to convert common slotted screws into non-removable screws and butchering your palms. PRY BAR: A tool used to crumple the metal surrounding that clip or bracket you needed to remove in order to replace a 50 cent part. HOSE CUTTER: A tool used to make hoses too short. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit. UTILITY KNIFE: Used to open and slice through the contents of cardboard cartons delivered to your front door; works particularly well on contents such as seats, vinyl records, liquids in plastic bottles, collector magazines, refund checks, and rubber or plastic parts. Especially useful for slicing work clothes, but only while in use. Son of a b*tch TOOL: Any handy tool that you grab and throw across the garage while yelling "Son of a b*tch" at the top of your lungs. It is also, most often, the next tool that you will need. ------- Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 13:50:11 -0800 From: scott grandstaff Subject: Re: [OldTools] shop vac attachment Joe and Gang: Your best bet is your old vac!! Believe it or don't. The shavings clog you because the normal vac filter is toast after 10 seconds operation. Any shop, besides what is already underfoot, supports gobs of ordinary fine house dust on top of everything else. Paper or foam or cloth filters only cover the area of direct vacuum and offer little in the way of filter area, no matter what kind or brand you buy (yes there are slightly better, but expensive shop vac filters available but they're only a slight gain). Normal filter area is about the size of a coffee can at best, and directly over the vacuum port, or motor. The dust enters the machine and slams directly into the filter. Now, If you are like me, you don't really use the wet pickup everyday. So make yourself an old fashioned dirtbag! I use an old sweatshirt. Works perfect for years. And you simply take it out for wet pickup. Cut one sleeve almost all the way off. Sew it up. Sew up the neck too. If you are good with a sewing machine do a spiffy job but a rolled over seam and a needle and thread will do. Hot melt if you are truly clumsy. hehheheheheh Now get some velcro and either sew or hot melt it across the bottom. Last, cut the second sleeve, leaving about 6" of it, and overturn it over a piece of heavy string or cord. Slit it to let the string out, of course. You may need to add a short stub inside the vac to attach it to. I used a piece of pvc pipe, merely a short collar in my case, and glued it on with the regular primer/pipe cement. It won't harm the normal function of the vac at all when you need to pick up wet. In use the vac will suck at the 98% power of a new filter, until the bag is all the way full! Wads of shavings, with full power like this, make the most satisfying GULP and they wizz though. I used to have to clean my filter 4 times to do my shop. Now I do the whole shop 4 times before I have to empty the bag!! And the regular filter is 80% clean when I do. Hoover was no idiot. Even his first model had a cloth dirtbag. http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/auction/vacpic.jpg I also used to maintain the town car wash and part of that was the vacuum. Even the heavy industrial would clog with fine dust almost instantly and take it down to about 20% power in no time. It still worked but it was very slow and weak and nobody liked it. I added the same kind of dirtbag, which was quick and easy to empty, btw, and when word got out, everyone in town was suddenly using the vacuum that had basically sat dormant for years. I was emptying that bag twice a week! When "the new people" took over, the first thing they did was toss the, by then, mungy looking old bag (hey I washed it every couple months, whattaya want? :) ) and now nobody but a fool even tries using it anymore. yours Scott Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html ------- Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 17:30:13 -0500 From: "Bill Taggart" Subject: RE: [OldTools] shop vac attachment > Normal filter area is about the size of a coffee can at best, and directly over the vacuum port, or motor. The dust enters the machine and slams directly into the filter. < Except that modern Shop Vacs (the actual Shop Vac brand, not the generic "shop vac") have the option of using large filter bags, just like your household vac. Except these filter bags are huge and hold way more - and prevent the motor canister filter from getting immediately junked up. I treated myself to a new 16 gallon Shop Vac about 3 years ago, and it works great. Bill T. ------- Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 17:34:49 -0500 From: "Chuck" Subject: RE: [OldTools] shop vac attachment I do much the same thing as Scott, except I use the bag from a 2 cycle leaf blower/vac. I never used it as a vac. It comes with a hole just about the right size to attach inside the shop vac, so you don't even have to cut off a sleeve and sew it up. All of these (i.e., not many) I've ever seen also come with a zipper that opens nicely for emptying when it fills up. The bag seems to catch almost everything, since the after market HEPA filter I installed in the Shop Vac rarely needs to be cleaned. BTW, I attach it with a long cable tie, or two short ones if I don't have one that's long enough to reach all the way around. Chuck Myers ------- Re: Intro and some questions [sherline] Posted by: "Ron Ginger" rongingerx~xxroadrunner.com yaginger Date: Thu Dec 24, 2009 6:35 am ((PST)) A mag base can be very useful. Look for an old PC cabinet with a nice white, painted case. Cut one flat side off the case and put it on your benchtop under your Sherline. Now you can put a mag base indicator anywhere around your machine, against either table or whereever you need it for a set up. The metal top is also easy to cleanup for Oil, etc. and a nice way to recycle old PCs. ron ginger ------- Re: Digest Number 4507-Burning kerosene [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "WJJIMx~xxaol.com" WJJIMx~xxaol.com Date: Thu Jan 7, 2010 8:43 am ((PST)) In a message dated 1/7/2010, Dale writes: > Burning kerosene also puts an acid in the air. Before I got the natural gas furnace in my tv shop I used kero. heaters for a while. Everything rusted, even chrome. Damn near lost all my test equipment to corrosion. < Dale: Friend of mine turned off his Oil fired furnace because it "cost too much" to operate. Filled up the kerosene heaters. After the fire dept came and went with their high pressure-high volume hose lines, he was getting a better idea of cost. His molds and a lot of his merchandise was on the floor scorched or outright ruined. Bldg was a loss also. Also, the kerosene fumes go right into the air you are breathing in the space; central heating fumes go out a chimney or exhaust. Jim Lyle ------- Re: Digest Number 4507-ventless NATURAL gas Posted by: "Jay Nugent" jjnx~xxnuge.com Date: Thu Jan 7, 2010 9:55 am ((PST)) Greetings. My 220 sq ft shop (and all the machines, lathes, mills, tools, and more delicate instruments) is kept at a cozy 55-60 degrees (F) all winter with a 500 Watt electric heater. The type that looks like an old steam radiator, but is filled with oil. It cycles on for about 5 minutes every half hour or so. The oil is heated and then radiates out into the room (no fans) quite nicely. A WattHour meter shows that this is costing me *about* $1 per day to heat. Turns out my house costs MORE per square foor to heat than my garage shop does! I guess putting in 6-inch insulation, vapor barrier, seal all cracks and openings (like under the door), and most of all --- COVER the cement floor with those 2x2 foot stiff foam floor pads. WAY warmer when the cold cement isn't sucking the heat out of my feet! :) Oh! And once everything in the room is up to temperature, you now have "thermal mass" that will continue to hold the temperature steady. All the more reason to pack the room with more toys...err... tools ;-) Electric is easy, no fumes, no oxidants, no water vapor, and is not likely to cause a fire. As always, YMMV... Jay Nugent Ypsilanti, Michigan ------- Heating A Shop Posted by: "BERNARD POKORSKI" calchuckx~xxprodigy.net Date: Thu Jan 7, 2010 6:00 pm ((PST)) Hi. My brother back in Omaha runs an antique classic, & hot rod car repair/restortaion service. I asked him how he heats his 1200 sq.ft. 3-bay shop during the colder months... this was his reply: > The shop has block walls with 10 ft ceilings except for the center which follows the roof line (also insulated). The center bay is the 'high bay' for the hydraulic lift. And yes, I insulated the heck out of it. A portion of the backside is underground which also helps some. I am using two 1500w oil filled heaters. I turn them on the low setting as it starts to cool down in the late fall and slowly increase the settings as the outside temp drops. hey are on 24-7 until spring. When it starts warming up I begin reducing the settings until it's warm enough to turn them off. I have been running this way since the building was put up in 1996 or so. I believe the secret is to keep the temperature in there constant and as you mentioned and not allow the mass inside the building to cool down. Doing so would take a long time to recover from (probably spring). I did the math a few years ago and I think it was like 60 or 70.00 a month if they ran full bore all the time, which they do not (they, by design cycle on and off depending on the dial setting 1- 6). This is easily determined by tasking 3000W x 24 = 72,000 W or 72KW per day. 72KW per day x 30 days = 216KW per month. Multiply that by the KW rate you pay the electric company to get a rough idea what the monthly charge will be The coldest I have seen it get in there was about 58 when it was below zero outside. Kicking the lights on and other equipment warms it up quickly. By the end of the day, it is sometimes pushing 70 degrees or better. Extreme conditions like we are in now may require a 3rd heater but we haven't had to resort to that in 13 or so years. In the summer I use the same principles with the A/C unit. < Maybe this information might help someone. Regards, Bernie....A Little Bit South of Grass Valley, CA ------- Heated workshops Posted by: "John" johnx~xxstevenson-engineers.co.uk Date: Sat Jan 9, 2010 2:59 am ((PST)) Last night the mercury dropped that low in the thermometer it trapped a rat on the floor. John S. ------- Re: Heated workshops Posted by: "Bob Minchin" bob.minchinx~xxntlworld.com Date: Sat Jan 9, 2010 3:02 am ((PST)) Surprised you have any room on your workshop floor for rats or mercury! Bob ------- Re: Fein vac [taigtools] Posted by: "imserv1" imservx~xximsrv.com Date: Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:51 am ((PDT)) frxdy... wrote: > I have a small Fein vaccum and after my wallet stopped bleeding I've been happy with it. You can hear the phone ring while using it and also can talk to someone in the same room without yelling. < Another nice thing about the Fein is that it has a blow-by fan. You can use the suction for a vacuum plate and it will not burn up the motor (quietly ;-) Fred Smith - IMService http://www.imsrv.com ------- Workshops [was Re: OT source for capacitors] [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "S or J" jstudiox~xxtbaytel.net Date: Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:09 am ((PDT)) On Jul 30, 2010 Rexarino wrote: "Sounds like your shop is coming along very nicely! I just ran afoul of the local building codes - possibly the most contorted, illogical, architect-centric-user-be-damned piece of local legal system I have to deal with. Imagine a city that says it wants to increase density and reduce expansion into farmland, that then enacts a $5000 fee for adding an apartment, which they have now removed, and tout it as an "improvement" - - arrrghhhh. Now, they limit "additional structures" to a small percentage of house floor space. To build a bigger shop, on a huge lot, I must build a bigger house?? Idiots! My shop may not expand much, but there may be a plethora of "temporary structures" along my driveway soon... " Hi Rex Your consternation with arbitrary and often nonsensical building codes is common to many other folks trying to build workshops. Some potential alternatives -- In one Ontario city a builder had a number of lots that were originally intended for duplex houses. Problem: the lots were too narrow for the setbacks from the property edges needed to build the detached houses that the public preferred. Solution: build two detached two-story houses with a short space between the pair of buildings. Hidden in the ground was a chain attached between the two basement walls thus linking the houses making them legally a duplex. A structural link above or below ground between your house and a detached structure might make it legally part of the house. A custom knifebuilder bought an old schoolbus and converted it into a workshop, adding reinforced flooring and interior studding and insulation and a heater. He kept it in running condition and licenced for the road so the city had no jurisdiction. Bonus, he could drive it to sporting goods shows and take it with him if he ever moved. Other folks have bought old trailers from 18 wheelers and again kept them licenced for the road. Lots of room for studs and insulation and a heater and added windows. If considering these options, it would be best to be the first one in your area to do so; you would likely then be grandfathered if they introduced bylaws to prevent more of these workarounds. regards Steve in Thunder Bay, Ontario ------- Re: Workshops [was Re: OT source for capacitors] Posted by: "Rexarino" rexarinox~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Jul 30, 2010 5:26 pm ((PDT)) Steve, thanks so much for that message. It helped a bit to rant in the first place, and I felt much better after reading your reply. All of the options you suggested are possible solutions for me. I will ask the codes officer for attached building clarifications when I return to that crystal tower, and keep the other options in reserve. Rex ------- Re: Workshops [was Re: OT source for capacitors] Posted by: "ernieazevedox~xxcomcast.net" Date: Fri Jul 30, 2010 6:06 pm ((PDT)) When I went to build my shop I bought plans online and Clackamas County wouldn't accept them without many mods. I sat there several times listening to rejection after rejection and finally the inspector showed me a "sample" plan. They said make the plans look like these the guy said. I said ok, and handed them back and said here are my plans. I took my plot plan and laid it out on the table and said "good enough"? He couldn't argue with that. It made me a smaller shop but that was ok with me. Tax wise it was a better move. Good luck with your shop. ErnieA ------- Re: Workshops [was Re: OT source for capacitors] Posted by: "Rexarino" rexarinox~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:20 pm ((PDT)) Thanks Ernie! Clackamas and Multnomah counties probably have a competition for "most rejected applications" and "most obscure laws" I went to the Oregon Steam up last weekend with a friend, thought I would spend a couple hours and be home by noon, but it was a fantastic show with more than a dozen huge old steam traction engines parading around the premises, a working sawmill operated by 3 steam engines, hundreds of vintage and older tractors from little "toys" to diesel behemoths, and our own Portland Model Engineer's Gary Hart at the PME table, with his little 4 cylinder gas engine running for us to see. Click on the link to Jarod's page and enjoy, but note that Gary's engine is gasoline powered, not kerosene. If you go, plan on more than a couple of hours... http://jarod.eells.us/projects/SteamUp2010/ ------- Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 09:32:39 -0500 From: CheekyGeek Subject: Re: [OldTools] Re: A simple, sturdy, height-adjustable workbench base? On Sat, Aug 14, 2010 at 9:24 AM, John wrote: > I've been wondering about this myself. What's the perceived advantage > of an adjustable height workbench? I can't speak for anyone else, but as I alluded to in my original post, my concern was not knowing what height would be the most comfortable for ME. I didn't want to build a bench with a locked-in height that would have me reaping a sore lower back every time I went to use it for a particular purpose. So if I found that I needed it 1-1/2" higher or lower for my comfort level, I wouldn't have to build a new bench but simply be able to change the dimensions of my trestle feet (height) and there it would be. Darren Addy Kearney, NE ------- NOTE TO FILE: Someone suggested having a number of thicknesses of pads to be placed under the legs. Each pad was bigger than the leg so as to leave room for a trim piece around the top of the pad to keep the leg from slipping off if the bench were moved a bit. This is a simple solution that would work for some light duty workbenches. Another possibility is a supplementary bench, a small platform that can be securely clamped on top of the regular bench to raise the height of a small project. ------- Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 14:24:55 -0400 From: "Dave Nighswander" Subject: Re: [OldTools] Re: A simple, sturdy, height-adjustable As an Industrial Engineer I have built or caused to be built several dozen work benches, both adjustable and fixed. For a person who has to work at a job 8 to 12 hours a day, allowing the bench to move up or down a foot or so allows a 5 foot tall person or a 6' 5" tall person to use the same bench. I have found that raising and lowering the bench 2 to 3 inches over the course of a shift's work prevents lower back strain in the people I build benches for. Because I am 6' tall, for my own use I have settled on a 34" bench height as an optimum for most things I do, but I have different height requirements for blacksmithing, woodworking, and general work. My old South Bend 9" lathe has the controls at approximately 42" high so I'm not forced to bend over or squint while working on precision operations. The woodworking bench vise is bolted onto the front of the 34" bench so I don't have to bend over to plane a block or chop a mortise. The blacksmith post vise is 40" off the floor so I can have leverage for bending and filing operations. The forge is at 30" so I can pump the blower with my left hand and hold the steel in the fire with my right without bending over. The anvil is 30" up so my hand is in a neutral position while striking steel. My machinist vise is at 27" so I can sit in a chair for tedious filing operations. I intend to build a hydraulic scissor lift for working on mechanical items with a 0" to 34" working height because I don't enjoy kneeling on the concrete as much as I used to. Which is the optimum height? It depends on what I'm doing. I agree that having a bench that doesn't wobble is paramount for most hand tool items. The force is applied from the floor to the bench through my feet, legs, back and arms. If any movement is allowed in the bench, control goes out the window. ------- Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 12:25:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Thomas Conroy Subject: [OldTools] Re: A simple, sturdy, height-adjustable workbench base? Galooterati: John Leyden asks: "What's the perceived advantage of an adjustable height workbench?" Different tasks require different working heights. Different crafts even more so. For planing you want to get well over the tool and work, to keep your weight on it holding the plane down. Paring down to a curved line with a chisel you want to be able to see and judge things precisely, so you want the work nearer your eye-- at least I do. My off-the-shelf woodworking bench is a pretty-good compromise height somewhere around 34"-35" and is comfortable for planing, but if I am carving down the threads of a sticking wooden screw my back begins to feel it. A surprisingly small difference is important: my preferred height for bookbinding (mostly done standing) is about 39" but my home binding bench came out about an three- quarters of an inch too tall and is uncomfortable. And some binding tasks are done sitting, so I need chairs of two heights, very low (for paper repair) and quite high (for sewing). I think having an adjustable height bench would be more fuss than it would be worth, especially since I like to have under-bench cabinets and tools hanging on the walls. I would rather have multiple benches of different heights. But I can see the appeal, especially for someone with limited space who likes to do a wide variety of things. Tom Conroy Berkeley ------- Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 14:01:39 -0700 From: Graham Hughes Subject: Re: [OldTools] Re: A simple, sturdy, height-adjustable workbench base? For my end, I've noticed that I'm considerably happier carving at a height that would be absurd to do carpentry at. I think the best way to solve this and other problems is to either have multiple benches. (ha ha ha!) But seriously, I have a saw filing bench that's at the right height for me and a workbench that's much lower) or to have intermediate things you slip in, like a block that raises your work surface for detail carving, or a big thick piece of wood you've attached your machinist's vise to so that it's at the right height for detailed filing, or the like. LV has a carving vise that offers several inches of height, although I've never used it (nor do I particularly intend to). Supposedly this is why the Noden adjustable bench was designed, but as I mentioned above I loathe using them, so... Graham Hughes ------- Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 11:44:51 -0700 From: James Thompson Subject: Re: [OldTools] Rifflers, Rasps, Files, storage, numbering etc. On Aug 3, 2011, Joe wrote: > Almost sold a tool, happened just the other day. It was getting kinda > old. I coulda said it got in my way. But I didn't and I wonder why. I have settled on a philosophy of old tools ownership. 1. I don't buy it unless I think I am actually going to use it. (Unless it is the proverbial Stanley #1 for $5. I'll make an exception for something like that.) Scott Grandstaff recently told me to buy a couple of sets of older PROTO wrenches, as they are going to increase in value. I did, and they are useable, so it's OK for them to occupy space in my big rollaway with 50 or more pounds of other fine wrenches. You might be surprised at just how many wrenches and sockets you can own without having any duplicates. My heirs might sell them, but I won't. 2. I don't let stuff sit around in crappy condition thinking, "I'll get around to that someday." Someday never comes. Remember that. Clean it up now. I recently gave away a tool that would have brought a good price, if I had been able to find time to refurbish it. I don't have the time, and I'm not going to, so I gave it to someone who actually will do the refurbishing. 3. If it isn't in useable condition, I put into useable condition right away. This reinforces rule #2. 4. I often give stuff away to someone I like, who needs it, and will actually use it. Galoots have been generous to me, and I like to spread it around. I love the Galootaclaus tradition because it gives me a reason to give stuff away. 5. I never (well, almost never) sell any of my tools. (Honest duplicates excepted.) I'll trade stuff, but I hate selling it. I learned from painful experience that when I did sell a tool, I put the money in my pocket, and later the money was gone, and I had no idea where it went. Now I had neither the tool nor the money. Then I asked myself why did I do that? (Slapping self on forehead and developing a large flat spot.) 6. Unlike money in the bank, my old tools never depreciate in value. I wish I had time to use them more, but time keeps on slippin', slippin', slippin', into the future. (Steve Miller Band, "Fly like an Eagle.") And you can't buy time. As always, your mileage may vary. James Thompson, the Old Millrat in Riverside CA ------- Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 16:12:46 -0600 From: Don Schwartz Subject: Re: [OldTools] Rifflers, Rasps, Files, storage, numbering etc. On 8/3/2011 1:10 PM, Bill Taggart wrote: > Ouch. Words I need to try better to live by. I've got lots and lots of old tools and machinery (mostly some very cool old machines) stuffed away in corners, waiting for me to get around to starting the restoration. I've done several restorations on some old machines, but I have more in pieces and in storage waiting than I've actually completed. I also have a bunch of planes in a drawer in a similar state. I have too many projects simultaneously ongoing. If/when I finally get caught up on some of these things (or quit my job or get laid off - or win the lottery), hopefully I can get back to those. - Bill T. - Hangin' mah haid in shame < Don't be beating yourself about this. It's just that your commitments, ambitions and interests exceed the time and energy available to you. I had the same problem, but gradually since I retired I'm finding time now and again to get a few little things done. Don ------- workshop environmental control [barstockengines] Posted by: "Les" rocketcaverx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:58 am ((PDT)) Hello all. I have been off-line so to speak for a few years, but after a recent move and life re-arrangement have recently re-kindled my interest in engine building. This might be slightly off topic, but not far I think. I am in the process of converting a 12' X 24' storage shed into a workshop. One end will be dedicated to my metal working tools, ie mini lathe, mini mill, and accessories, the other end to ham radio and misc electronics. I'm getting ready to apply the insulation between the studs then the wall coverings, so I think I'll be able to maintain a comfortable temp year- round (I am in Illinois), but I am concerned about humidity. I don't want all my cool tools and toys to rust! The door is a large double door, intended to make it easy to drive in a riding mower and such. I have thought about getting a de-humidifier, but I fear there isn't much of a real seal around those doors. It's just wood on wood. I have never done anything like this before, so I am just a bit out to sea here. Has anyone dealt with a similar issue? Is it a simple matter of getting creative with some weather stripping? Any advice would be appreciated. Les V ------- Re: workshop environmental control Posted by: "Gordon" glachnietx~xxgmail.com Date: Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:07 pm ((PDT)) Do you want frequent access through the large door? These doors are very difficult to seal and insulate. If you just want occasional access, a removable panel is the best solution. A north facing door will let in more cold air than a south door. ------- Re: workshop environmental control Posted by: "Les" rocketcaverx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:24 pm ((PDT)) No, I really don't care about the large double door, it's just the only door on the shed. I didn't have any choice in the matter. So I should think about replacing it with a standard type door? It faces east by the way. Les V ------- Re: workshop environmental control Posted by: "brian carter" briankenyn2x~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:34 pm ((PDT)) For what it's worth Les, I live in one of the highest humidity areas in the Country, South Florida. During this time of year, it rains every day, I sweat every day, and the biggest problem I have is ensuring that my sweat doesn't lay dormant for long on the tool post or ways. When I'm not working, I have little or no trouble with rust -- I just cover the lathe. A dehumidifier would be a waste of time for me here, but I have used them on boats and they work great in an environment that has bilge water all year round. I think your application will be just fine. Same applies by the way to electronics -- I had all of my test equipment in the garage for years without any trouble at all. Hope that helps some. Briank ------- Re: R: [barstockengines] workshop environmental control Posted by: "mztgroups" mztgroupsx~xxtiscali.it Date: Thu Sep 15, 2011 2:49 am ((PDT)) During the winter, room temperatures in my shop range from the ordinary -14C to +24C during the weekends, when I light the stove (and then brew tea and coffee all day long on it, to improve the humidity factor, :-) All my tools are set in drawers, the most precious of them wrapped into old socks (morse tapers, etc...) or into wooden boxes (lathe chucks, precision squares, micrometers ...). When a tool gets used during a workshop session, it won't go back into its drawer unless it has been cleaned and sprayed with WD-40 (not before the end of the session). The machines that were used to cut steel/CI get a thorough cleaning (vacuum cleaner, too) sprayed with wd-40, wiped, re-sprayed with a light coating of wd, and covered with several layers of fabric. If it were only aluminium, I do not mind that much about the thorough cleaning, just remove most of the debris and the usual wd40. If I don't do that, I get rust. Apart from general insulation, large gaps among the door and the frames should be sealed: adhesive foam strips should do, even rags forced into the gaps (providing You've got a way to get in/out the shop without having to replace them). Can You cut a smaller shop door into the larger one? During the summer, You might possibly enjoy the larger opening (especially if You happen to be in the workshop during the 'fresh' hours) while a smaller one won't let so much chill inside during the winter. Marcello ------- Re: R: [barstockengines] workshop environmental control Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Thu Sep 15, 2011 3:41 am ((PDT)) Good Morning Group: My bandsaws, drill press, and woodworking tools have to live in an unheated shed. A good way to protect surfaces that don't need to be lubricated is with automobile paste wax. David Clark in Southern Maryland, USA ------- Re: R: [barstockengines] workshop environmental control Posted by: "Les" rocketcaverx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:44 am ((PDT)) Thanks for the good replies fellows, you have given me plenty to think about, as well as some good tips on tool care which I greatly appreciate. Not sure what I'll end up doing with the doors, though I like the idea of removing them and putting in a regular door. I sure am looking forward to getting the tools running again and working on some projects. My skill level would probably rank as "beginner to intermediate", hopefully I can work on improving that this winter. To you folks in cold climates with "undetached" workshops like mine, do you run a heater at some low level all winter to keep the temp above some minimum (above freezing perhaps), or do you let nature have its way and just heat the shop when you are using it? Here in Southern Illinois we commonly have several single digit days, though our average winter temps are between 20 and 40. I would rely on electric heat for general "keeping things above freezing" type use, aided by some as yet undetermined method for comfort while working. I suppose all that will depend on how well the insulation and weather sealing works. ------- Re: R: [barstockengines] workshop environmental control Posted by: "Gordon" glachnietx~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:37 am ((PDT)) The variation in temperature is what causes condensation. In the summer running an air conditioning unit removes the humidity. In the winter keeping the shop above freezing would minimize condensation. The ideal is to keep the shop at a constant temperature 24/7 but that is not really practical for most folks so we have to reach a compromise based on finance and amount of use. Most folks use oil or WD-40 on rust prone surfaces. I live in Michigan so I am very familiar with the condensation problem. One caution is if you choose a gas fired heater, the ventless IR etc heaters put a lot of moisture in the air. If you use one you need exhaust. It sounds good that all of the heat stays in the building but one of the products of combustion is water. ------- Re: R: [barstockengines] workshop environmental control Posted by: "Ron Gerlach" r7734gx~xxhotmail.com Date: Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:08 am ((PDT)) Les: Just don't use any kind of open flame heating due to the amount of humidity that is a natural byproduct of the combustion process. Also consider using a product like Boeshield T9 to protect all of your unpainted metal surfaces. It is available from Sears as well as other places. I have been using it for several years with excellent results. Some of my tools are in Northern Texas in a non-climate controlled building which experiences big humidity and temperature swings. RonG ------- Re: R: [barstockengines] workshop environmental control Posted by: "Glen Bond" gmsx7ax~xxmetalstop.com Date: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:30 pm ((PDT)) I live in south Mississippi and we have a lot of humidity. What I do is leave a 60 watt light burning near my lathe and it keeps all condensation away. It is mostly needed in the winter time. Shop is unheated. Glen ------- Re: workshop environmental control Posted by: "harold tucker" har_jonx~xxyahoo.co.nz Date: Fri Sep 16, 2011 1:24 pm ((PDT)) Gordon, the problem is condensation; even if you cover your lathe with some form of material, your lathe chucks will still sweat and rust. Some years I purchased a lathe, and the owner's workshop was a wooden packing case used for shipping motor parts, situated in the middle of a paddock, or field. The lathe was in as new condition, no rust of any sort on the chucks or other exposed parts. I noticed a small desk top fan sitting on the top of the lathe and asked him what did he have it there for; he said it was to stop condensation forming on the lathe; he left it running when the lathe was not in use. The small movement of air stops condensation forming. So I purchased one and used it for many years with no problems until the fan wore out; within short time the condensation arrived and the rust started to form, so I smartly purchased another fan to eliminate the problem. So try it and see if that will help. Regards Harold ------- Re: workshop environmental control Posted by: "Andrew" akayton1x~xxgmail.com Date: Sat Sep 17, 2011 3:53 pm ((PDT)) Excellent idea. My lathe used to stored under a tarp in an open garage. No rust just dust. When I moved to a closed garage the rust started even though I cover the machines with old sheets. Cheers, Andrew in Melbourne ------- Re: workshop environmental control Posted by: "wbhinklex~xxaol.com" Date: Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:04 pm ((PDT)) For those that live in the USA, go to Dollar General or other Dollar stores and get the vinyl table cloth with the felt backing. It will keep moisture off of your machinery and the felt will collect the moisture and dissipate it. bill hinkle in Oklahoma ------- Re: workshop environmental control Posted by: "Paul Barton" fixitdadx~xxbigpond.com Date: Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:54 am ((PDT)) Interesting topic this as I am in the process of moving all my gear into my new workshop. This is located in Perth, Western Australia. From what I could learn about condensation in garages and workshops was that most moisture comes through the floor, which normally in Aus is bare concrete without any membrane below. This is what I did to try and stop condensation. After compacting and levelling the sand base I covered it with 200um builders poly plastic sheeting and taped the joins. Then the floor went down which in my case was concrete pavers, 70mm thick. On top of that went another layer of builders poly which was fastened up the side of the shed. On that went my 12mm rubber floor tiles. To date there has been no condensation on the inside and everything feels 'dry' even when cold. Only time will tell if it works but I figure that that having moisture barriers below and above the floor can't hurt. Bit hard to do if your floors down but maybe you can cover the surface. Cheers Paul in Perth ------- Re: workshop environmental control Posted by: "Des" desbromilowx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Sep 20, 2011 6:01 pm ((PDT)) G'Day Paul from Perth - greetings from another sandgroper!! If the floor is already down, the answer to consider is "bond-crete" -- it's a concrete sealer. Pour it on, and let it soak into the concrete; it acts as if the top 5mm of the concrete is a plastic barrier. When I get a shed of my own, I plan on putting down the plastic sheeting before the pour, bondcrete after, and lining the shed. But then my dream shed is HUGE, and has multiple "stations" inside all divided based on function: black area, machining, metrology, woodwork, finishing booth, clean-room, etc. That is the "lotto dream" -- reality will be a 2-4 car garage size shed with a few fixed benches, wheelable stations, wheelable storage, and a large apron out the front for black work -- hopefully covered overhead. Des ------- Re: 6x18 Lathe Bench setup ideas [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "David G. LeVine" dlevinex~xxspeakeasy.net Date: Thu Sep 15, 2011 5:42 am ((PDT)) On 09/12/2011 10:13 PM, d.buckeyes3 wrote: > Newbie question... Looking for ideas when building a bench setup for a 101.214 Craftsman 6x18. I'll be following the directions in the manual for setup and leveling the machine, but am looking for pictures/ideas/tips with the setup. Any pictures/ideas on placing tool racks behind or on the side? Collet rack ideas? Splash shield on the back wall or Pegboard behind the lathe? Oil pan underneath.... what size? Large enough for he entire lathe to set in with a drain hole? Or smaller pan to be able to remove easily? Dumb question.... is putting it on HD castor/wheels counter productive to the whole leveling/stabil base concept? Any ideas/pictures/thoughts/things to look out for would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! < Just as a useful bit of data, HDO (yes, that is the right term) or High Density Overlay plywood (or HDO MDF) would be wise for the top, and desirable as the bottom. It was made for concrete forms and highway signs and is designed to not admit much moisture (making it both more stable and less prone to stains.) MDO is NOT as good, but better than MDF or plywood. MDO and HDO are not available from Home Depot or Lowe's, unless a mistake is made, but it is wonderful stuff. SEAL THE EDGES (or moisture will get in.) Best is to put a hardwood face on each edge or laminate Formica (or equal), but Formica chips, hardwood only gets grubby. An ideal top would be a layer of 3/4" HDO, one or two layers of OSB (7/16 OSB is really cheap and kills vibration well), and a final layer of 3/4" HDO with 3/4" or 1" ash or maple or birch (1" or 5/4" lumber size), laminated around the edges. This will make a stable, strong attractive top which can be finished (polyurethane is good here, but there are other finishes which will work) and will not absorb much crud (a technical term for cutting fluid, etc.) A NICER top could be made with 3/4" Birch cabinet grade or marine plywood (3-4 layers), but most of us would rather save the money and the work of building up the finish. After all, it only will need 1 4x8 sheet and then a gallon or two of finish and the same edging... Admittedly, a 2"-3" thick top will be heavy as , but it will be dead (i.e. will not vibrate) to most inputs. If the tabletop CAN vibrate, and the lathe is not stiff enough, the work will be affected. Dave 8{) ------- Re: 6x18 Lathe Bench setup ideas Posted by: "Dallas" n5feex~xxnetzero.net Date: Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:17 am ((PDT)) I have three lathes, two 618's and one 9 inch South Bend. I picked up an old jeweler's bench for my first 618. It is very nice with all of the small drawers up and down both sides. I made the bench for my second 618 by cutting up an old solid wood core office door that I bought at a resale store. I cut it to size and covered it with surplus Formica also bought at the resale store for $0.25 per square foot. It makes a great top, just like a kitchen counter. The Formica glue cost more than the Formica. Buying surplus, you don't get to match colors, but it is very durable and nothing soaks in. I mounted the top to a drawing file cabinet I also bought surplus. I made both 618 benches exactly the same working height with controls for each machine in the same orientation. I also mounted them side by side after starting with them about 10 feet apart. I found I made hundreds of trips back and forth for 618 tooling. I mounted the South Bend to another solid core door covered in Formica. For this one, I built the bottom from 3/4 regular plywood, added drawers and storage below. I just painted the bottom since it sees no cutting fluids etc. I did use gloss enamel paint so it cleans up ok. I recommend you put your lathe up on anything temporarily and start using it. You can adjust the bench height by laying down plywood or whatever you have on the floor adjusting the height until you get a working height that is right for you. When you figure out just how high you want your machine, start thinking about bench options. Having things at the correct height for you is very desirable for your long term happiness. I am short, so I like my stuff lower than most people. It is better to have someone else's back hurting because your bench does not fit them than having your back hurting because you built your bench to fit someone else. Dallas, Oklahoma ------- Re: 6x18 Lathe Bench setup ideas Posted by: "Ric Bergstrom" ricbergstromx~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Sep 16, 2011 6:14 am ((PDT)) My lathe bench is a chunk of steel I beam the length of the bed plus a couple of inches. Maybe 6-7" across and 10" on the web. Legs welded on and a platform with a hinge for the motor. Bought it that way. Very solid and takes up little room. I slip a cookie sheet under it and hold it with a spring loaded clamp. I put some big bolts through it with nuts above and below the feet to make leveling feet and dropped one of the bolts into a hole I drilled so it won't walk around. Ric Bergstrom ------- Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 08:55:53 -0400 From: Bill Taggart Subject: [OldTools] Excellent tips from The Schwarz *http://lostartpress.wordpress.com/2011/09/23/principles-of-shop-setup* *These three stand out to me as important realizations - it took me several years to come to these realizations. I'm still working on addressing them fully... * *9. Wood collecting is a separate hobby.* Your shop should have just enough wood storage for the two or three projects in the pipeline. If you collect wood (and that's OK), get a shed. Or a barn. *10. Tool collecting is a separate hobby.* If you haven't used a tool in two years, you probably don't need it. *11. Jig-making is a separate hobby.* If your jigs have more than 10 parts (or an integral micrometer) then you probably are a hobbyist jig-builder (and there's nothing wrong with that). If you cannot remember what a particular jig is used for then you probably don't need it. *12. My favorite shops have nothing stacked on the floor.* Bill T. ------- Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 08:22:33 -0500 From: John Holladay Subject: Re: [OldTools] Excellent tips from The Schwarz Ouch! Guilty on all fronts. I knew I neededa shed. I just couldn't remember why. Now, just because I don't "NEED" a tool, just what am I supposed to do with it. I suppose I need another shed that is basically an overgrown tool box. Yeah. That's it. Jigs, not so much of an issue. I generally make very simple, task oriented jigs that are disposed of once the task is completed (with a few exceptions of course). The ones I keep easily could fit in that extra shed. Hee! Hee! As for the stuff stacked on the floor. I don't have any floor space to begin with, so, not much of a problem there. Now if you want to talk about stuff piled on top of the workbench or any other flat surface, now we have a problem. Half of the time I want to us that big flat topped tailed apprentice with the sharp spinning thing in the middle, I spend 30 minutes moving crap to any other available flat surface, just to be able to use it. I guess it's like Bill Cosby used to say about houses. You will always need a bigger house because you get more stuff. Then you get a bigger house. You have more room so you get more stuff. It's a never ending cycle that apparently applies to shops as well. Doc ------- Re: Preventing Rust in an Unheated Garage [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "rburkheimer" burkheimerx~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:48 am ((PST)) Keith Mc wrote: > Is there another way to protect my Atlas, in such an environment? I use Boeshield and Evaporust, both the best products for their respective purposes. Here in DFW we don't have quite the rust problem others do. You might consider buying a small dehumidifier to slide under the lathe, then a cloth over both, followed by a tarp. As for desiccant, the cheapest way to buy that is to get a bucket of the blue crystalline cat litter. It's the same stuff as comes in the little desiccant bags. ------- Re: Odd rust problem [shopbuilttools] Posted by: "oldplanecollector" oldplanecollectorx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:28 pm ((PST)) gdnichols wrote: > Recently I bought an iron extension wing for my saw. It came from Taiwan remember them?) and was rust stained from the plastic wrapping being in contact with the top. Some of the usual "light" de-rusting efforts such as 3-M pad and WD-40 didn't do a thing. < Try the Boeshield products: Remove rust: 'Boeshield T-9 Rust Free' Protect from rust: 'Boeshield T-9 Rust Protectant' T-9 was originally developed by Boeing to protect aircraft parts. Wood Magazine did a comparison in March 2004 (article called "Rust busters" on rust removers and rust preventers. The Boeshield products rated the highest, even preventing rust when exposed to salt water mist. The rust preventer is spray on and wipe off. It leaves a thin coating of wax on the surface. I was originally concerned about problems with wood finishing, but after using it on my tablesaw and bandsaw tables for the last year I've had no problems. I bought mine at Woodcraft, but I have seen it at Rockler and Amazon as well. ------- Re: Preventing Rust in an Unheated Garage Posted by: "Jay Greer" redwitch1x~xxearthlink.net Date: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:37 pm ((PST)) Hi Guys, Here is a bit on the way I deal with rust in my boat shop in Washington State. I am a wooden boat builder so, my main shop is unheated as wooden boats do not get along well with heated spaces for construction or storage. It also rains a lot here which makes for a lot of rust control that goes on constantly. The protection of steel and iron tools and machinery is pretty easy on tools that are used a lot. A wipe down, after use, with Japanese Camelia Oil, keeps my hand tools rust free. Likewise, I wipe saw tables with camellia oil after use. It doesn't take a lot. The dispenser has a wick for easy application. After it is applied, I wipe off any excess with newspaper or a rag. I also lay a sheet of rust protective paper in the boxes and drawers that I store my tools in. I have a separate area from the main boat shop that I heat with a wood burning stove. This is radiant heat and, the stove draws moist air out of the room and sends it up the stack while the cast iron stove radiates dry heat into the shop. In addition, I run low temperature de-humidifiers 24/7. All in all, I have little problems with rust as long as I stick to the above mentioned program. Camellia Oil has been used to protect Samurai Swords from rusting for well over a thousand years. It is made from the pressed seeds of the black camellia bush and has the lowest acid content of any oil outside of sperm whale oil. I buy it from The Japan Woodworker in Alameda CA. A ten dollar bottle lasts me about five years and is well worth trying if you really want to stop rust in its tracks and not leave any tracks at all. http://www.japanwoodworker.com/page.asp?content_id=10045 Jay Greer ------- Re: Preventing Rust in an Unheated Garage Posted by: "Richard Marchi" rfmarchix~xxaol.com Date: Fri Nov 18, 2011 6:32 am ((PST)) For what it's worth, my WV shop is not insulated or heated when I am not there. It's heated with a wood stove when I'm there and has a roof ridge vent and ventilated soffits. Outdoor winter temperatures get down to 10 degrees F. In the three years I've been using it I've seen no sign of rust on my lathe, milling machine, drill press, table saw or hand tools. I usually wipe them down with oil after use and that seems to do the trick. Maybe the fact that the building is so well vented minimizes the problem of condensation. Richard Marchi Gangplank Marina Slip H-22 Washington, DC 20024 ------- Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 23:33:26 -0800 (PST) From: Thomas Conroy Subject: Re: [OldTools] Please help me make a leather tool roll Doc Holladay wrote: "Ok. We have two proponents for cloth (canvas or denim) over leather, and I have read Mr. Grandstaff's thoughts on making tool rolls from old denim jeans. I will definitely take that into consideration. It seems that my concerns that cloth will adequately protect the tools are unfounded. However, one reason I was thinking of making a leather one was that it seemed to be a fairly simple project to try my hand at a little leather working (and yet another excuse to aquire more tools). I am not trying to be stubborn, but I simply like the look of leather, unless there is a reason leather would potentially damage my tools. I am still curious as to why leather would NOT be a good choice. Can anyone offer comment as to what the specific negatives would be for using leather? Also, can these negatives be counter-acted by treating the leather in some manner?" Short version: The issues with tools and leather come from long-term storage with each other; leather is an admirable protection for tools in service. The basic problem is serious rusting that appears suddenly, and grossly, on tools that have been quite stable for a long time, and once the rusted areas appear they are hard to get rid of. Both the chemical nature of many leathers and moisture issues are involved. Leathers are chemically so diverse, and the precise conditions that trigger the problems are so amorphous, that no simple solution can be recommended except to avoid storing steel in contact with leather. The problems are well-known to, and much of the supporting evidence or anecdotage comes from, collectors of handguns and fine knives. Long version, with irrational ranting warning and bad-organization warning: OK, I got that far yesterday morning, and then stalled because the long version was so very long. In the meantime a lot of what I would have said has already been said, to my relief. The main practical experience of the dangers of storage in leather seems to come from the knife and gun people, and I'm happy to leave that discussion to them. Do notice, though, that often the people who have had good experience with leather over decades aren't talking about long-term storage, since they take the gun out and cherish it and fondle it and oil it and clean it once in a while and even use it. Any potential problem is caught early and, even more important, the microclimate inside the holster changes. And another thing here: I have to confess that I think of tool rolls as storage containers, not as use containers, because I use them for storage only. Jim's description of how he uses his tool rolls for transport and immediate current use, and Scott's comments, have shown me that my prejudice here is not justified; my dislike of leather tool rolls can't be extended to someone who is using a large number of tools very frequently and needs a good method of sorting and examination. Still, **I** wouldn't want leather tool rolls for the tools I use for the things I do. From my own experience, leathers are extremely reactive in wet environments, and aggressive. With veg-tanned leather (including oak, and I'll be back to that one, unless you've got some mineral oaks or animal oaks out in the yard) touching a bare steel blade to wet leather will usually leave a blue-black permanent stain. Just a touch, and no way to get rid of the stain short of destroying the leather. In bookbinding, the water in the paste used for adhesion of the leather is more than enough to do this, so you automatically make sure there are no steel tools hanging around on the bench except the one knife used for trimming the corners. The stain is an iron gallotannate, apparently, basically the same pigment created by the iron-gall ink which often eats pre-industrial paper manuscripts into lacework. I don't offer this staining as proof that leather will corrode steel, just to indicate that leather and steel together in the presence of moisture are highly reactive. Also, never use a leather bookmark, even though it seems so luxurious, because if you forget it in the book it will cause more discoloration and embrittlement in a couple of months than a newsprint bookmark will cause in a couple of years -- which is saying a lot, if you haven't ever encountered the results of an old newspaper clipping left in a book. Again, not proof that leather causes rust, but an indication that leather is often highly reactive, and aggressive. For leather used for storage, the two potential difficulties come from trapping moisture near the tool, and from the chemical nature of the leather. Any storage device creates a microclimate around the tool, and the point of the device is to make it a favorable microclimate. Many leathers would do pretty well here, as they are readily permeable to moisture, but others will trap water or vapour on one side or the other of the skin. Unless you deal with leather seriously, more seriously than most leatherworkers, you don't have any idea just how diverse leathers are in their properties and reactions. If you use a garment or upholstery leather for a tool roll (and these are the ones that are flexible and thin enough for the use, as well as relatively inexpensive) the original chrome tannage would be rather water-resistant to start with, and the surface will very likely be coated with casein, plastic, or some other material to keep liquids from soaking in and causing stains. In other words, the tool roll becomes a moisture trap. The other potential difficulty comes from the chemical nature of leathers, and this is one of those complex topics. You want to make something of leather? This is a lot less specific than wanting to make something of "genuine solid wood" like the furniture companies that churn out desks and chairs made from unfinished pine. The basic idea of tanning is to combine some other material chemically with rawhide, to reduce the hide's tendency to putrefy in moist environments and to change the handling properties, usually to make it softer and more flexible. Just in the tannage, the central step in making leather, there are three main divisions: oil tannage, mineral tannage, and vegetable tannage. In addition to these you have to consider untanned skin products like rawhide, parchment/vellum (basically rawhide stretched when wet and dried under tension), and alum-tawed skin (used to be called whitleather, for white leather, with a reputation for toughness). Oil tannage is rare nowadays; the skins are very open and accept and release a lot of water, so genuine shammy (chamois) washleather, an oil tannage, is common enough, but that's about it. A re-enacter might do a lot with brain-tanned buckskin, an oil tannage, if he tans it himself, but boughten deerskin is more likely to be chrometanned garment deer. The dominant mineral tannage is chrome tannage, invented in the middle 19th century and now used for something like 90% of all leather, including upholstery leather, garment leather, and shoe upper leather. Chrometanned steerhide garment or upholstery leather is what you are likely to end up with in a bought tool roll, though a very soft one might be chrometanned sheepskin garment leather. Chrome tannage gives a stretchy, soft, open-feeling leather that is resistant to wetting. It is a pale bluish color when undyed, and you can test for chrome tannage by burning a scrap and wetting the ash; the ash will be slightly green when dry, and very green if you wet it with a drop of water. Then there is vegetable-tanned leather, historically dominant but now used only for special purposes like shoe soles, bookbinding, leather carving. The vegetable tannages are divided into hydrolysable and condensed, also called pyrogallol and catechol. The pyrogallol (hydrolzed) include the ones used for binding leathers, like sumac, acacia arabica pods (I think this is the same as bagaruwa), and chestnut; these give a very permanent (as in: servicable for centuries) light, strong, flexible leather for thin skins, but they are both expensive to obtain and (because they penetrate skin very slowly) very expensive to use. Most vegetable tannage now is with much cheaper catechol tannages like quebracho, myrobolans, and wattle. Genuine oak tannage, which was the norm in England until the 20th century, is a natural combination of pyrogallol and catechol. Only I doubt there is much, if any, real oak-tanned leather getting into commerce nowadays, since the process was so slow that even in the 1970s, and I think even the 1950s, there was only one tannery left in England using it. (If you are a re-enactor, again, you might encounter it from someone who tans their own and doesn't use boughten tanning solutions.) By googling, though, I did find that many retailers of carving leather use "oak tanned" as an explicit synonym for "vegetable tanned," even defining it that way in their glossaries -- something that to my eyes is skirting dangerously close to fraud. If someone tells you they are using oaktanned carving leather I wouldn't impeach their honesty, but I would question the frankness or knowledge of their supplier, or of the tanner who supplied their supplier. And I haven't even started on the after- tannage treatments like fatliqouring to change the handle of the skin, and dying and the preparation for dying, and surface coatings to hide blemishes or to put a false grain surface on the lower splits of steerhide, all of which would alter the aggressiveness of the leather or the microclimate it creates; or the pre-tannage processes which probably wouldn't alter its aggressiveness, but might; or the differences between different animals... And every one of these differences, every one of these materials, will alter the permanence of the leather in itself and will alter the aggressiveness of leather toward materials stored with it. "Oak tanned bad, vegetable tanned good"? That's on a level with "two legs bad, four legs good." It's too bitterly ignorant even to laugh at. Only, despite all this diversity... if I remember correctly, all leather is acid (that is, pH under 7). All of it. Certainly, all the leathers I deal with professionally are acid: under alkaline conditions, the tannins separate from the collagin of the original skin. Some leathers are seriously acid (I'm sure of pH 3 to 4, not sure about under 3) even when new, and the pH tends to drop with age. Leather in the microclimate inside a sheath means an acid microclimate. Nothing may happen until you take the tool out and put it back on a damp day; or until your house is unheated for a winter and you get condensation inside the sheath. But the potential is there. So what is a good material for long-term storage? You want something that will absorb and release moisture to a certain extent, both on the side near the tool and the side near the outside air. Something a bit permeable, in other words, with buffering properties. When I started to worry about leather sheaths 25 years ago I started folding up simple little ones out of offcuts of 2-ply museum board tacked together with masking tape, with three or four layers of board over the edge. These are so fast to make that I have no hesitation about throwing them away if I get rust inside. Then, for a few years, I decided to make them stronger and to keep moisture out by wrapping them solidly with plastic package strapping tape. And I started getting rust, and the rust would recur in the same places after I cleaned the tool (in these years I had an unheated house in winter, no big deal in the Bay Area where the temperature rarely goes down into the 40s, but enough to cause condensation on steel). So I cut open the bad sheaths and found rust spots on the inside that corresponded exactly with the recurring spots of rust on the tools. The problem was pretty obvious: the plastic trapped moisture inside the sheath, and the rust inside the sheath catalysed the formation of new rust on the tool. I made new sheaths tacked together with a minimum of masking tape, and I've had no new rust problems (touch wood). The general moral, however, is that if you get rust on a tool in a roll or a sheath, you had better throw away the sheath or you will get repeated rusting. And it's a lot easier to throw away a ten-minute free-cardboard sheath that an expensive three-layers-of-leather-glued-and-saddlestitched-together sheath. Don't use just any cardboard, by the way, since a lot of it is highly acid; but my rule of thumb is that a white-all-through cardboard is likely to be OK since the manufacturing processes that get rid of the grungy- colored componants fortuitiously also seem (nowadays) to get rid of the aggressive ones. So I often use high-grade museum board, a material I have around in any case. And cloth is good, undyed natural cotton or linen for preference. I have tools rolls made of canvas and other cloths, and I wrap other tools in old rags. I even have leather sheaths, still, the ones I made when I was young, craft-proud, and ignorant, and a few for special reasons. I like leather on axes because it gives very good protection from a sharp edge falling with weight behind it, and I figure that rust on the edge of an axe is easily sharpened off, unlike rust on a paring chisel. Maybe not true for a broadaxe, but the physical safety tops the rust potential in that case, at least for me. And wood is very good, maybe the best, for long-term storage of tools. Not every wood, but the pale scentless ones with very few "extractives," volatile materials that may include aggressive acids. The wood will have the buffering of moisture that is wanted, and many woods don't attack metals (there is research in the conservation literature about this, the focus being which furniture woods to use for enclosed-environment display cases, and the methodology being to record the rate of surface oxidation on lead wafers. Don't use oak, IIRC). Japanese swords, at their best probably the most skillfuly made of any steel objects anywhere any time, were stored in special scabbards mad of a plain white wood called, if I remember correctly, hinoki. I have a dovetail saw bought at the Laney College flea in a plywood edge guard, and where the plate was bare to the world it was covered with deep red rust, and where it was in the wood it was near-pristine. I even have leather sheaths, still, the ones I made when I was young, craft-proud, and ignorant, and a few for special reasons. I like leather on axes because it gives very good protection from a sharp edge falling with weight behind it, and I figure that rust on the edge of an axe is easily sharpened off, unlike rust on a paring chisel. Maybe not true for a broadaxe, but the physical safety tops the rust potential in that case, at least for me. OK, I feel like I am starting to rant a bit, and the foam is collecting in the corners of my mouth, and people who see me are starting to sidle away, so maybe I should end this, even though maybe I haven't answered all the original questions yet. But one last thing: leather is wonderful stuff to work with. You can get great results with almost no skill, and if you can find someone to teach you or one of the few books that goes beyond the superficial there is an incredible of depth and subtlety of work that can be achieved. I'm afraid I may have been discouraging about using it, which would be a pity. Just: don't trust your life or your tools to leather, not until you have a lot of experience. Tom Conroy Berkeley ------- Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 03:29:28 -0600 From: John Holladay Subject: Re: [OldTools] Please help me make a leather tool roll Just last night, I watched a program that did a short bit on the manufacture/production of leather. They described the common tanning process (oak). The show reminded me of what happens when my iron pipe clamps are left in contact with wood when making something out of oak. I hate those nasty stains left on the project and will go to great lengths to prevent them from happening to begin with. It stands to reason that the same might apply in this case and seems a very good reason not to store tools in leather. I still prefer my leather tool belt, but I don't store my tools in it. They go in it when in use and get put away afterward. I think that I will be making canvas chisel rolls. Doc ------- Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 15:07:07 -0600 From: James Van Vleet Subject: Re: [OldTools] Advice needed: insulating a steel pole barn. On Jan 1, 2012, at 1:40 PM, John Junkroski wrote: > I'd appreciate comments and suggestions from anyone who has done this. I have done this. I have 29 x 36 (I think) steel pole barn. I built 2x6 "walls" in between the real support structures on all the sides, dropped in the thickest fiberglass batts I could get and then covered the batts and 2x6 walls with vapor barrier. Put OSB over that and instead of cutting in light switches and outlets I put conduit over the surface of the walls to keep things sealed up tight. Did the same basic thing with the ceiling only with 2x4s, sheet rock and blow in insulation (joist hangers on the beams between each "pole"). Been about 12 years now and it works great. No condensation issues and it is energy efficient enough that I keep it well warm all day, all winter long and just turn up the heat when I am in there. >From my experience I would strongly recommend not skimping on the insulation and I love both the conduit (change things when ever you want) and the OSB (hang things where ever you want). I should say though that I don't use wood or any sort of "sunflower" heater in the shop. I have a combination of electric and externally vented gas and if you do go with something that produces a ton of humidity (sunflower and tube heaters are horrible) I don't know if my experience will apply. I don't see one or two people causing enough humidity to be an issue but you do need to think about how you heat. I won't say this approach is super cheap but anyone can do it themselves as there is no load bearing going on. I compared it to not wanting to go out there because it was cold or drafty and I know I made the right choice. The basic decisions about things like insulation you will have to live with for many many years and may largely dictate how much time you spend out there. My one big regret is that I didn't have them throw in the pipe for under floor heating when I had them put in the slab. You just can't put that in later. :-) I have over the last decade accumulated 2/3s of the old hardwood flooring needed to do the shop. Picked it up at auctions for close to scrap prices. I hope next summer I hope will be the time to put that in as well but so far I coped with rubber mats over concrete. James ------- Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 16:58:32 -0800 (PST) From: gary may Subject: Re: [OldTools] Advice needed: insulating a steel pole barn. On Sun, 1/1/12, Tom Holloway wrote: > If you was me, I'd spring for 2x6 framing and fill the voids with the most efficient thickness of fiberglass bats I could find (probably R21). In the ceiling, even thicker (12", R38, or something similar). On the slab floor, I'd get some of those foil-backed dense foam sheets the same thickness as my choice of furring strips, lay the latter 16" OC, and fill the voids with the dense foam, and top it with 5/8" or 3/4" plywood--assuming you're not planning on putting majorly heavy machinery in the space. Without something like that the floor will always feel cold (and hard) in the winter. Since the walls will not have to support a roof structure, you could save $ by putting studs and joists at 24" OC, especially if your studding is 2x6. < Hi Tom-- I'm with you on the walls, the framing needn't be 16" oc, since it ain't needing to support a roof holding off weather and heavy snow. Further, in an interior structure, the outside walls don't need to shed weather and can be left unskinned, 'specially if the inside walls are sheathed with something strong, like 5/8+ ply...I'd go so far as to say a 2x6 wall sheathed one side with ply 5/8 or thicker could be framed at 48" OC with 2x4 backing ribs bridging the seams--why not? If it's just a 'curtain', it's done that way all the time in commercial buildings, usually without the 'bridging'... If one is committed to skinning the outside for whatever reason, consider that the shredded newspaper 'blown-in' insulation is a pretty good deal. Home Cheapot around here throws in the rental on the powerful/awful machine that grinds and pumps the bales of stuff, if you buy enough bales. If one goes that route he should holesaw the insertion holes as big as the largest nozzle you can fit on the delivery hose----that's about 2"---it goes a lot faster and clogs not at all. Cover the insertion holes up with tin can lids punched with artisically-placed nailholes, like on a pie safe's tin panels. I've had many hours of experience before, during and after with this 'blown wool' or whatever you want to call it, and believe me, it's very efficient R-wise, also it fills every space available to it, and tight. Several times I've opened walls up later, and found them packed full, to the point where the stuff stays firmly in the cavity with the lath and plaster removed. If you were to fill a wall cavity, from outside, and there were a hole 'inside' about the same size, but several feet away from the point of insertion, you could fill up an entire closet as well. Really, you could. It would take a long time, and you'd probably wonder "Where is all this stuff going?" I don't know about the rest of the world, but plywood and 2x6 is very 'cheap' around here----plywood that's recycled from construction sites is cheaper still, sometimes free, if one is lucky. Why does anyone runs electricity 'in the wall' in a shop? Don't ask me- I'm not sure why people object to conduit laid on the walls in the house, but generally they do. 1/2" EMT is very cheap, and can carry an astounding amount of wire, more than you could ever 'pull' without a tractor, under the UEC. I forget what the total capacities are for #10 and #12 conductors; nobody thinks about it because there's always enough room. If you can pull it around a couple of '90s' and a couple of 'kicks' by hand, you're way under the code limit. It's far easier to pull stranded wire than solid conductors, but everybody knows that. You could put even MORE conductors in there if you run #14 for lighting, but I don't bother. If you run #12 for all your 120v, you've always got the option to run tools on any circuit. I know, I know, you can run tools on #14 x~xx 15A. And you can drive short distances w/o a seatbelt. If one plans the conduit array just right, it's a pretty good hanger for tools and clamp lights. I may be all wet about this, but a un-insulated floor, on 2x2 sleepers would be comfier and slightly warmer than the naked slab---how cold is the slab? Certainly not as cold as the air outside...with 2x2s, the floor could be laid 12" OC for very little dough--if the slab is level enough now, it'll be level enough raised up 2-3 inches. Gotta have a vapor barrier, and if the floor 'floats', the VB's your floating medium. A taller floor structure leaves room for ducting, power and massive insulation, but massive insulation is not required; the cold of the slab won't 'rise' like the cold above the shop will 'fall'. And who needs ducting? Dust collectors? People collect the weirdest stuff. Ventilation. It's easy with fans. Bring the air *in* thru two different inlets, maybe---from inside the barn past the stove in the winter, from the shady side of the building in the summer. Every ventilation problem is different, and so far, they've always had a solution. am I still blathering on? gotta run--- gam in OlyWA ------- Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 16:12:07 -0600 From: Martin Reser Subject: [OldTools] basement shop recommendations I'm currently in the planning stage of a basement shop in a 1931 brick house. It is 21.5' x 22.5' with the 22.5' dimension running East to West and having 3 small windows on each North & South wall. I'm thinking of spray painting the joists and subflooring white and painting the (very dry)cement block walls with UGL Drylock. Any suggestions as to flooring, mats, floor paint, or something to soften the concrete? Does anyone know of any type of "solatube" or light booster for basement windows? I'd like to use as much natural light as possible consistent with having 58 year old eyes & new glasses. Any other ideas would also be welcome, it's nice to have a resource like this so you don't have to re-invent the wheel. Marty Reser ------- Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 17:24:19 -0500 From: "John Eaton" Subject: RE: [OldTools] basement shop recommendations Hey Marty, I've been building my basement shop for a couple of years now - space is about half what you indicate is available to you. I don't normally wear glasses (just got my first subscription though) but I think just getting a lot of light in that space will help you out quite a bit - even if it's electric. I hung long tube florescent bulbs but selected a "color" more like natural light. The trick is to get plenty of light in the space to cut down on just about all shadows, then use task lights right above your main work areas to increase the intensity there. With my shop I do both tailed and untailed handtools plus some large equipment, so dust collection is very important - if you're just doing handtools it's much easier. I also had to seal up everything to make sure I keep the dust contained in my shop space. I blogged about the setup here (the first post talks a bit about considerations): http://modernwoodworking.blogspot.com/2008/02/my-basement-shop-constr uction.html http://modernwoodworking.blogspot.com/2008/08/basement-shop-prog ress-pics-20080811.html http://modernwoodworking.blogspot.com/2008/09/basement-shop-prog ress-pics-20080902.html http://modernwoodworking.blogspot.com/2008/09/basement-shop-prog ress-pics-200809.html http://modernwoodworking.blogspot.com/2008/09/basement-shop-prog ress-pics-20080928.html http://modernwoodworking.blogspot.com/2010/12/basement-shop-prog ress-pics-20101212.html I basically started using the shop before really completing it - right now there's parts of a Unisaw covering the cabinets I started to put a top on in one of my posts, plus 5 chairs and a bench waiting to be refinished. Plus there's a big stack of lumber taking up a lot of space on the other side of my bench - hope to get down there this week and clean some stuff up. John Eaton http://modernwoodworking.blogspot.com ------- Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 17:50:52 -0500 From: Bill Ghio Subject: Re: [OldTools] basement shop recommendations Marty, John already gave you some good ideas on lighting. In an area the size of yours I have six four foot fixtures and four spots and still occassionallly pull out a portable task light... and I have four large windows. Of course, my eyes are even older than yours. I painted everything in semi-gloss white to reflect light. My overhead is 7 feet 8 inches so I did not want to lose any by putting down sleepers and a wood floor over the concrete. I put in 1/4 inch thick vinyl tiles, the kind w/ interlocking edges. There is a variety of brands/styles out there and they range from expensive to very expensive. I decided they would be worth the cost and have not regretted it. They cushion the floor under foot very nicely, but are especially kind to tool edges. I have had dropped chisels stick in the floor w/ no edge damage. And the vinyl is self-healing. I still use the thicker mats in front of the bench and lathe because so much time is spent standing in those two places. Bill ------- Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 20:32:43 -0500 From: John Ruth Subject: RE: [OldTools] basement shop recommendations You want the basement walls to breathe a little bit. Here's what worked for me: Paint only on the part of the wall which is below ground level with the UGL drylock. Then paint the whole wall, including the part you just Drylocked, with a good latex. Stain, rather than paint, the exterior of the wall. Latex will peel off the exterior as the blocks "exhale" their moisture. Floor could be treated with Sodium Silicate "Water Glass" to prevent dusting. ------- Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 09:56:57 -0500 (EST) From: waltchex~xxq.com Subject: [OldTools] Re: basement shop recommendations Marty, By all means paint that ceiling white! You'll be amazed what it does to the space. White walls won't hurt either. Depending on how serious you are about natural light, you might look at how egress widows (a window MUCH larger than the usual basement peek-hole) are installed. If you can, a wide and deep window well (also painted white and even with a transparent/translucent cover) will bring in a lot of light. Otherwise you might experiment with light colored paving at the windows to bounce a bit more light into the space. Painting a concrete floor anything but concrete color is not a great idea. As soon as it starts to wear from traffic, it looks lousy, and needs another coat of paint. I don't know how the new urethane/epoxy garage floor coatings hold up. If you have room, and a dry basement, a wood floor on sleepers is a great idea. I had to settle for putting down the 2x2 interlocking play-mats that Sam's club sells for about $1.50 apiece. They are either black or nursery primary colors. They've held up for about 10 years, and are easy to pick up for sweeping. I just use them at the lathe and the bench. Have fun. Walt Cheever Cleveland, Mn ------- Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:47:43 +0000 From: Richard Gorbutt Subject: RE: [OldTools] Re: basement shop recommendations I use those 2X2 interlocking foam rubber mats as well in my basement shop. I really like em. Mine are dark grey, and patterned like anti skid aluminium plate. I think they came from IKEA. Great for when I drop something like a freshly made guitar body on the floor like the sausage fingered oaf I am. My shop is only 9 by 9 so I covered the whole floor. And the unexpected bonus is that my cats prefer the floor as it is now to cold, bare, not comfortable-for sleeps-at-all concrete. At least I think they do, they seem to come in and check up on me more now. (I swapped my SWMBO for two Small Furry Creatures Who Must Be Obeyed. It works for me. Ymmv.) All the best, Rich ------- Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 08:15:33 -0600 (CST) From: w.taggartx~xxverizon.net Subject: Re: [OldTools] basement shop > I'm going to try a rubber barn mat I had one of those in my shop a couple years ago. They are made of much harder rubber than the true anti-fatigue mats. I submit that barn mats do not provide the same benefit as true anti-fatigue mats, because instead of standing on a nice cushion of firm foam, you're basically standing on rubber-lined concrete. I got rid of mine and now have the foam anti-fatigue mats instead. A while back at either Lowe's or Costco (can't remember which it was), I saw the honeycomb-style interlocking thick anti-fatigue mats. They looked like just the ticket - nice and thick, just the right amount of give. And the price seemed to me at the time to be very fair. I didn't need any, so I didn't buy any. The main drawback of that style seems to me to be that the honycombs would quickly fill up with sawdust, shavings, small bits of dropped hardware, etc. > How do you all feel about fluorescent tube lights as opposed to compact > fluorescents? Does anyone have experience with the tube bulbs that are > supposed to render close to daylight values ,5100 kelvin units I think? I put up in my garage and my attic several 8-foot, 2-bulb "heavy duty" fixtures, with the special ballasts that can start in very cold weather. I got them at Lowe's for about $80 each. I used the brightest white, "daylight" bulbs they had, and I like them. They put out a lot of very white light. I wish I had used them in my shop. When I built my shop, I decided I didn't want fluorescents like that, because the exposed bulbs seem a hazard - in previous shops (with lower ceilings), I more than once swung a board and suddenly was covered in a shower of falling shards of smashed light bulb. So in my new shop, I installed a whole mess of recessed can fixtures. Plus I assumed the incandescents would provide much brighter light. Well after replacing burned-out interior flood bulbs all the time, I recently found a CFL that fits and puts out a very bright white light. So hopefully they not only will be more energy-efficient than the incandescents, but also will last longer (although much to my annoyance, one died within two months of being installed - and it's just not worth the effort to go and try to call them on their "warranty") and provide the same, if not better, lighting as the incandescents I'm replacing. > What do most of you use for side-lighting, cheap clamp-on lamps? Yes, those in a couple spots (mostly at the drill press). I also have a cheap two-lamp halogen fixture that the previous homeowner left hanging in the garage. I took them down and hung them in the back corner of the shop, where it tends to be darkest. They have a pull-chain, and two brightness settings. I use them only when I'm back in that area, which is pretty much when I use the lathe. I also have a couple of the old- fashioned swing-arm desk lamps that you can easily mount just about anywhere by drilling a hole in a wood block. >it would be nice if there were some kind of prism arrangement to bring more daylight in the windows. How about a mirror? Prop it in the window well at an angle? Or at the very least, keep the window wells as clean as you can and paint them bright white. Two houses ago, I installed sky tubes, or whatever they were called -- reflective mylar tubes, about 12" in diameter, which required a hole cut in the roof, which then had a big plastic bubble put over it. The tubes came down through the attic and into the ceiling, where they had a lens cover. They transmitted natural daylight down into the living space, and it was amazing how much light they brought in. Made a HUGE difference in our upstairs hallway and master bath. After that, we had to use the electric lights only at night. Bill T. ------- Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 16:08:53 -0400 From: "Andy Baughn" Subject: RE: [OldTools] Where's that tool? Was working on finishing the rough build of our new closets today and couldn't find my tape measure anywhere. Finally found a goofy little pink one then found a folding rule near the closet next to the framing hammer. Seems every time that I finally get to go to my shop that I spend most of my time looking for this tool or that. Does anyone else have that problem? What do other people do? Should I build a really big tool chest that can hold everything? My basement walls are not conducive to a studley type hanging chest unless I hang it from a floor joist. Maybe the answer is more shop time so I will always know where stuff is. Bad Andy ------- Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 13:34:14 -0700 From: James Thompson Subject: Re: [OldTools] Where's that tool? I don't know the answer, Andy. I have a pencil problem. It doesn't matter how many pencils I buy, and by the way, I don't think I have ever worn one out, I can almost never find a pencil when I need one. Now, I work in a hideous mess because I do not put anything away until I put everything away after a project is finished. I constantly lay something down and then can't find it until after a long search. This occupies more time than the actual woodwork. You would think that I'd learn something from this, but I don't. I put away all my accumulated stuff from a few simultaneous projects yesterday, cleaning off my Unisaw (which I haven't seen the table of in a couple of years) and my bench. Guess what I found in the process? Forty two, count 'em, 42 pencils. Now they are safely ensconced back in the used pencil drawer where I will be able to find one, right up until the time when the drawer is again empty and I start searching for them again. It doesn't take all that long to take out all the pencils because they hide from me as soon as I use one. And the game begins again. I will sometimes in desperation go to the new pencil drawer and take one out, but I really hate to do that because I know darned good and well that there are dozens of them laying about. At times I have to fall back on a marking knife or a scratch awl to mark something, but this is also problematic because they also hide from me after one use. I think they see me coming. Just because I am paranoid doesn't mean people aren't after me. ------- Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 15:38:11 -0500 From: John Holladay Subject: RE: [OldTools] Where's that tool? At times, I will get down in the shop and spend some time arranging and organizing. I'll get it all nice and neat. Then is where the problem arises. I go and buy something else and now I don't have a place to put the new one. If I never bought anything else, I'd be just fine, but, we all know that ain't gonna happen. Like Bill Cosby said, "You get a new and bigger house so you have room for all your stuff, then you get more stuff until you need a bigger house." And the cycle hours on and on. Shops and tools are the same way. "You never really have enough." Doc ------- Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 16:56:54 -0500 From: WesG Subject: Re: [OldTools] Where's that tool? Jim puts it exactly the way I would. I've never been able to pick up a tool, use it and put it back where it's supposed to be. Which means that I go a couple months sometimes between clean-ups at the shop. Work time is for working. Clean up time is actually pretty enjoyable. Music, a cold beer and plenty of time to put things in their proper place. Then 24 hours into the next project, the shop's a disaster all over again. Cheers, Wes ------- Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 08:55:35 -0700 From: Kirk Eppler Subject: Re: [OldTools] Where's that tool? Certain key tools I have multiples of. Tape measures is one of those. 1 on the workbench, dedicated to projects there. 1 in the home office desk drawer. 1 in the kitchen. 1 in the truck. A handful in the tool cabinet near the garage door. Plus the folding rules, yard sticks, pocket rulers. All conveniently scattered about. Reduces the time spent looking when I need one in an upstairs bedroom. Kirk in HMB, cool and foggy after a gorgeous Saturday. ------- Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 13:00:07 -0400 From: "Dennis Yanan" Subject: Re: [OldTools] Where's that tool? I've lost track of the number of tape measures, 4 in 1 screwdrivers, and utility knives I have spread through the house. I do the same thing. I've got them in the truck, in my briefcase for work, and in just about every room at home. It drove my ex-wife nuts, but it meant that I always had one handy when I needed it. Dennis ------- Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 10:16:26 +0800 (WST) From: Peter Subject: Re: [OldTools] Where's that tool? Apologies to those who may be offended by additional bandwidth by me on this subject - but - "The memory ain't what she used to be either:" There I was busy measuring, cutting, welding security screens to cover our Men's Shed glass doors. Now I own a bright Lime green, 8 metre tape measure which I'm using on this job. One of the guys sees me wandering around apparently searching for something and asks the question - "What you lost Pete?" So I says,"Have you seen my big lime green tape measure Gav?" He says, yeah, "It's in your left hand!" Oh dear me, oh deary me. For those of you harboring doubt, the job came out all right. Thanks for asking. ;^) PeterH in Perth ------- Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 05:06:47 -0500 From: Charlie Driggs Subject: Re: [OldTools] Where's that tool? T.Z. wrote: >It bothers me to not find something I've misplaced, but there is an upside: you generally come across many more items that leave you wondering "when did I get this?".< What particularly bothers me about this is that I can remember needing to buy a small item, but not remember that I've already found and bought it. The evidence is there in front of me when I go to put the new one in its proper place, sometimes showing that I've done it twice. Thankfully, it hasn't happened yet with pricey items and only a couple times with buying brand new supplies .... Worse is knowing that I did buy it, it is not where it should be, I can't find it, buy another one, use it, and then find the other brand new one I knew I already had, and discover that I have two stashes for the same item, sometimes with multiple spares in each location .... after also finding three or four other things I didn't remember having at all! ... and maybe the ultimate worst is you know you acquire or buy it twice (example: taps or drill bits), find them both, and despite having many of them, you still don't have the right size now that you just need that ONE. Charlie D. ------- Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 11:41:41 +0100 From: Dave Caroline Subject: Re: [OldTools] Where's that tool? The buying it more than once made me put my catalogue online so I can refer to what I have before buying it again; also the catalogue has locations so it "should" be easy to find...but things dont get put back in the right place do they! So now I got it bad...I barcode items and so can scan a location once in a while updating its contents. There is now an item status of lost! Dave Caroline ------- Shop heat [shopbuilttools] Posted by: "gdnicholsx~xxaol.com" Date: Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:35 pm ((PST)) What do you use for shop heat in the temperate zone? I have about 400 sf [square feet] which I need to heat from 40F to about 65F to 70F about once a week. I don't want to spend a lot of money so I have been looking at room heaters as a possible solution. Has anyone had any luck with them? I have been using a little oil-filled radiator and an under desk heater recently. They work, but it takes them 4 hours to warm things up. Faster action would be good. ------- Re: Shop heat Posted by: "kendall bonner" merc2dogsx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:49 pm ((PST)) I use a wood stove, it works but does take a while to get comfortable. A lot depends on what you are doing in the shop. When I am doing some bench work, I use a heat lamp on the bench to warm the tools up, and sometimes a small heater under the bench I can stand in front of. That normally lets me work comfortably while the wood stove heats up the rest of the shop. For quick jobs I just use the heat lamps on the tools; warm tools make it feel warmer. Can often pick up a mobile home furnace dirt cheap, sometimes free. Just need a gas line and electricity. ------- Re: Shop heat Posted by: "Jason Beam" beamerx~xxbeamerweb.com Date: Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:31 pm ((PST)) I have the 5000 watt version of this: http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200316428_200316428 For me, forced air makes it FEEL warm sooner and that was more important. Radiant heat really only works if it's held constant - it doesn't catch up very fast at all. Heating objects is great if you don't have to make up 20-30 degrees in a hurry. For me, feeling warm is much more important than touching a cold tool from time to time. If I were in a colder climate, I would run gas lines and use a radiator to maintain a 45-50 temp 24/7 and then use the above to make the space tolerable in 20-25 minutes. It ain't cheap to run since it's electric, but even at 5000w, if it's running full bore, it only runs me about 45-60 cents an hour to operate in the winter on the weekends. Depends on the price per kwh, of course. Jason Beam Sacramento, CA ------- Re: Shop heat Posted by: "Carl Carlsen" candb2903x~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:31 pm ((PST)) How close is natural gas? 21 years ago I built my house with a "super sized" garage so it would include my workshop. I installed a separate "unit heater" up toward the ceiling. It was a great move. I can keep the place at an even temperature (50 degrees near Seattle) so I have no problems with condensation or tool rust. I can step out to the shop and kick the thermostat up to whatever I want and the heat is "THERE" within a couple of minutes. It sure changed my attitude about working in a COLD shop. In another part of the country I own a SUMMER cabin & for the occasional heat needs there, I use a propane wall furnace. Easy to install and really convenient heat. I don't feel the operational costs are significant in either case. Carl ------- Re: Shop heat Posted by: "mason" masonx~xxcoolaccess.net Date: Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:04 pm ((PST)) I live in texas close to Dallas and have a 30x50 insulated steel building. I switched from a propane heater to a wood stove because of cost. I use a fan directed toward the stove pipe to force warm air to the remainder of the building. I have lots of trees with limbs breaking so finding wood is not a problem and is free. I can build a fire and be okay to work without a coat or jacket in about one hour. The concrete floor gets cold after several days of 30 and below and no amount of heat will warm that up. I also plan on installing ceiling fans to circulate warm air off the ceiling at some point. Being retired and having zero cost heat sure improves my attitude toward working in cold weather. Mason ------- Re: Shop heat Posted by: "Bob Hrodey" rthx~xxhrodey.com Date: Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:59 pm ((PST)) Up in the NW Chicago burbs, I struggled with heat in my shop, trying to deal with kerosene heaters and eventually a kerosene-fired salamander. Neither worked well. No natural gas in our rural area so I was reluctant to go electric. Finally did and never regretted it. Bought a ceiling mounted Dayton electric unit with integral thermostat. I keep the shop temperature in the winter at 50 degrees during the winter (shop is well insulated) and if I want to spend some time in the shop, I just turn the thermostat up a click or two and I'm at 65 - 70 degrees or more in about 20 minutes. Best part of the deal was when SWMBO came out in the dead of winter and saw my finished heater installation, she asked where I was going to put the A/C unit. I figured I was getting a shot below the belt and said so. She said she was serious. I spend just as much time out there in the summer so why not put in an A/C unit. Found a used 10,000BTU unit and dug out my Sawz-All and the rest is history. Comfortable all year long. Heating the shop (at least minimally) also provides a nice benefit. Finishes and glues last a bit longer than they used to when they were subjected to freeze-thaw cycles. ------- Re: Shop heat Posted by: "Mike Duffy" naicraftsx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Dec 31, 2012 6:23 am ((PST)) I'm in NH and I also use a wood stove (it will take 2ft logs) to heat my 200 sq ft shop. The shop is partially insulated and has cinder block walls. When it's cold (around 0F) it can take 3-4 hours to get warm. I supplement the stove with a propane heater which speeds up getting the place warm. A fan sits behind the stove to circulate warm air. When it gets real cold or I'm gluing up something I will leave the stove fired up all night. I really hate using my motor driven tools when it's in the single digits. You can hear how much drag there is and I've popped 30 amp breakers starting my radial arm saw. It doesn't cost me any money to run the stove; we have plenty of wood on the property and have access to more if needed. A friend works for a tree trimming service and is glad to have someplace to drop off wood when he is in the area. ------- Re: Shop heat Posted by: "gdnichols" gdnicholsx~xxaol.com Date: Mon Dec 31, 2012 9:25 am ((PST)) Thanks to all for the shop heating suggestions. There were several great suggestions. My favorite idea was burning wood. There is something appealing about burning wood in an iron stove while there is snow on the ground outside. I always wanted an iron stove and envisioned burning woodworking scraps along with wood cut for the purpose. But wood is expensive here and fairly messy. I even daydreamed about building a hotplate or cook top element into a Harbor Freight iron stove to get the look and feel without schlepping wood and ashes. I live just south of Oklahoma City in Norman. This morning it is 39F outside and 50F in my two car workshop, so I only need to heat 400 sf (with an 8.5" ceiling) about 20F...not much of a heating job. I kinda like the small electric heaters because I can put them away when not in use. Even with everything on wheels, I never have enough floor space. (PS: I've been thinking of insulating the garage door if that makes much difference.) I do have gas available. The gas hot water tank is in a little closet by the garage door, but I have no wall space for a permanent installation of a wall-mounted gas heater which was one of my choices. The house's HVAC (working through an open doorway) will keep the garage cool enough in the summer, but it won't really heat it up in the winter. The house is covered with 4" thick stone so there is no easy way to make a hole in it...and I don't much want to anyway. I thought of a small heat pump on the roof. It would be fairly efficient but would likely run into thousands of dollars. As I said earlier, the little electric heaters I currently use work well enough -- but I need a 4 hour lead time to bring the temp up to where I want it. Everything considered, it looks like some kind of larger electric space heater with a fan would probably be best for me. Thanks again.... ------- Re: Shop heat Posted by: "mason" masonx~xxcoolaccess.net Date: Mon Dec 31, 2012 10:54 am ((PST)) I would think gas is your lowest operating cost in the long run. Check out gas units that hang from the ceiling and use a fan/thermostat. Run copper from the water heater. My suggesting a heater/fan combination brings to mind when I was maybe 13 or 14 and working after school in a grocery store. Late one night the heating unit malfunctioned with the gas fire starting but the fan did not start. The unit was red hot when I noticed it and slapped the side of the unit and the fan started. I forgot to tell the manager that there was a problem and when I went to work after school the next day I found the store had burned down during the night. Kept my mouth shut about what I knew. Mason ------- Re: Shop heat Posted by: "EdwinB" n5kzwx~xxarrl.net Date: Mon Dec 31, 2012 12:30 pm ((PST)) To minimize rust, it is best to keep your shop at more or less a constant temperature. I live near Austin, TX, and I keep my shop at about 60 during the heating season, and 80 during the cooling season. In the winter, I slip on a flannel shirt when working in the shop, and in the summer, I use a floor fan to augment the A/C. For your purposes, you may find infrared heat panels to be an acceptable solution (but they won't keep your tools from getting cold). Gas & wood put too much moisture in the air for my liking. Regards, Ed ------- Re: Shop heat Posted by: "kendall bonner" merc2dogsx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Dec 31, 2012 12:52 pm ((PST)) With my mill and lathe, I always wrapped them in blankets, then put a 40-50 watt bulb under them. They always stayed warm enough to work with and never had condensation. Tools and machines take the longest to warm up, so even if you have been running the heat for 3 hours, the oil and bearings will still be too cold to operate. I'm in Michigan, so always had to deal with wide temp swings between unheated and working temps. ------- Re: Shop heat Posted by: "Jerry Brasier" jerrybrasierx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Dec 31, 2012 7:12 pm ((PST)) By all means, insulate your garage door. It will make a major difference in the summer or winter. Home Depot or Lowes sell foam insulation board with a white plastic face that can be easily cut to fit in the channels of a metal door. ------- Re: Shop heat Posted by: "paul neece" paulwelditx~xxhotmail.com Date: Mon Dec 31, 2012 7:13 pm ((PST)) I like the blanket and light bulb idea. I live in Texas and temps drop drastically cold for a short periods of time. My mill has a head with an oil reservoir. My bandsaw has a gear box with oil reservoir. Both these machines are hard to start up on a cold day. The blanket and light bulb would cure that problem. Paul ------- Re: Shop heat Posted by: "kendall bonner" merc2dogsx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Dec 31, 2012 9:35 pm ((PST)) On mine I also took some pvc coated fabric and fastened it to the panels above and below the hinges on the inside to stop all the drafts. Keep in mind that if you add much weight to the door you may have to tighten up the counter balance springs to keep the same effort when opening/closing. ------- Re: Shop heat Posted by: "David G. LeVine" dlevinex~xxspeakeasy.net Date: Mon Dec 31, 2012 11:43 pm ((PST)) On 12/31/2012, gdnichols wrote: > (PS: I've been thinking of insulating the garage door if that makes > much difference.) I have seen huge differences with just a few inches of foam panel on a garage door. Just be sure to seal up all those leaks around the garage door. Just look at how many square feet that thing covers and then figure out the "R" factor. Dave 8{) ------- Re: Shop heat Posted by: "David G. LeVine" dlevinex~xxspeakeasy.net Date: Mon Dec 31, 2012 11:37 pm ((PST)) On 12/30/2012, gdnicholsx~xxaol.com wrote: > What do you use for shop heat in the temperate zone? Thermal mass rocket stoves. Dave 8{) ------- Re: Shop heat Posted by: "Harold Musser" hjmusserx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Jan 1, 2013 8:39 pm ((PST)) Try some of the archives at "solarheat" yahoo groups, they're a great resource. Harold ------- Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 12:24:31 -0500 From: Ed Minch Subject: Re: [OldTools] Shop relative humidity On Jan 18, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Sgt42rhr wrote: > Ken, Interestingly, the relative humidity in the shop is settling at 33% which is exactly the same as inside my house. The RH outdoors is presently 69%. I have a dehumidifier in the shop, so I suppose I can reduce the RH even more if I need to. I have not had a problem with tools rusting in the shop. I just wondered if there was a generally agreed upon RH for wood shops. Thank you Ken. John < Relative humidity is relative - relative to temperature. If I have a certain amount of water in box full of air at one temperature, and change the temperature of the air without changing the amount of water, the RH changes. So in a house with the same amount of moisture in the air. I will get one RH upstairs, and a higher RH downstairs just because it is a few degrees cooler. Then if I have a damp basement, it can go even higher. Moisture in the air wants to move towards a dryer area. The way a kiln dryer works is to raise the temp of the air in the kiln to lower its RH, so the moisture in the wood moves to the dryer air, then a fan blows that higher RH air out. My house and my basement are at the same temp and are at about 40-50% all year. Ed Minch ------- Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 13:10:12 -0500 From: Bill Taggart Subject: Re: [OldTools] Shop relative humidity On 1/18/2013 12:43 PM, Harri Haataja wrote: > What is the desired relative humidity for a woodworking shop? I think the generic answer is to get the RH conditions in the shop as close as possible to the RH conditions wherever the finished work will live. Of course, for most of us, that would mean having our workshop heated and air conditioned just like the house. The issue is that if your shop is not heated or cooled like your house (or whoever's house the finished piece is going in), in the winter, the RH in your shop will be much lower than inside the house, and in the summer, your shop will have a much higher RH than your house. So you let your wood sit in the shop for a few weeks to "acclimate" - but it's acclimating to RH conditions very different from where it's ultimately going to be. Then you make your furniture or whatever, get it all nicely done, and then move it into that different atmosphere - where the wood starts moving all over the place. Which is why it is of utmost importance to understand wood movement and the traditional construction techniques, which developed over time to deal with - wait for it .... wood movement - to prevent your work from tearing itself apart. Bill T. Whose very first piece of furniture opened up a big crack after just a couple nights inside the house... ------- Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 10:35:51 -0800 (PST) From: Chuck Taylor Subject: Re: [OldTools] Shop relative humidity Gentle Galoots, I keep hearing people say that humidity is low in the winter and high in the summer. That may be true in many places, but not in the Seattle area. Around here it is pretty much the opposite: dry in the summer, humid in the winter. About an hour ago I moved the outside sensor for our weather station from the back deck to the corner of the garage occupied by my shop, and it reads 33 degrees F, and 87% humidity. Outside readings were 27 degrees F and 91% humidity before I moved it. I live about 5 miles from an arm of Puget Sound. Chuck Taylor north of Seattle ------- Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 14:04:44 -0500 From: Bill Taggart Subject: Re: [OldTools] Shop relative humidity Let's be clear as to absolute humidity versus relative humidity. Absolute humidity is a measure of how much moisture is actually in the air. Relative humidity is a measure of how much moisture is actually in the air, compared to the maximum amount of moisture the air could hold at that temperature. RH is what is more important to wood movement, because it takes into account temperature. Warm air, of course, can hold more moisture than cold air. So in the winter, the absolute humidity tends to be lower than in the summer, but the RH tends to be higher. What happens, though, is you get that cold, moist winter air, having a high relative humidity (i.e., it has almost as much moisture in it as it can hold (which is why you see your breath so much) coming into your house, which is heated. The air then warms up, but it doesn't gain any new moisture (unless you have a whole-house humidifier), so its RH drops greatly - because the absolute humidity is the same, but as the air warms up, it becomes capable of holding much more moisture. The reverse happens in the summer - you have hot air that could hold a lot more moisture (on a dry summer day) - then it enters your air-conditioned house, where that air gets cooled. The absolute humidity doesn't change, but because you cool the air down, its RH increases, because the cooler air can't hold as much moisture as it could when it was hot outdoor air. Ed: check me on this, I'm doing it from memory! Bill T. ------- Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 23:54:37 -0500 From: Ed Bell Subject: Re: [OldTools] Shop relative humidity Change (lower) the temperature enough and the air eventually becomes saturated and the excess moisture precipitates out. As rain. Ed ------- Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 08:36:28 -0500 From: Ed Minch Subject: Re: [OldTools] Shop relative humidity or dew Ed Minch ------- Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 10:35:53 -0900 From: Phil Koontz Subject: Re: [OldTools] Shop relative humidity On Tue, Jan 22, 2013, Ed Bell wrote: > Actually, dew is the condensation of water on a surface due to the > surface temperature being lower than the ambient air temperature OK, Ed, you got me off the fence here. My shop is probably atypical in several ways, starting with a high content of metal. A friend once described it as the coldest shop he has ever seen. The floor is steel, the insulation poorly crafted, the doors loose and leaky, and there are large chunks of iron everywhere, with small scraps of iron everywhere else. I heat it with either a junk barrel stove (it burns wood, not barrels, Jeff), or with the propane forge or both. I wanta make a couple of points about humidity control. One is that the heater makes a difference. The wood stove vents air outside, so it reduces humidity as it warms the air. The forge vents propane exhaust into the shop. Another word for propane exhaust is -- wait for it -- water. The result is that when I'm forging, I use plenty of ventilation, and usually light the wood stove. The big metal lathe usually collects most of the moisture, which is about the last place I want it to go. The other point is that wood helps control humidity. At a home weather- ization class, the instructor ran through calculations to show that a typical house with sheetrock walls and a vapor barrier can store about 5 gallons of water in balance with the interior humidity. A log house has a storage capacity of about 500 gallons. It makes a lot of difference, and all to the good -- our log house doesn't gather frost on the windows, for one thing. I could go on, but my point is simple. If you have a little bit of wood (or a lot of iron) in a shop, it will probably suffer from moisture issues. If your entire shop is full of wood, or even better, built of wood, most of the problems just go away. In the words of Scott G, "wood likes wood." ------- What do you think? [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "southern_chinook" southern_chinookx~xxyahoo.ca Date: Sat Feb 16, 2013 5:10 pm ((PST)) I am planning on getting a new lathe (I will be seeking opinions on that soon too) and I am wondering about the wisdom in placing the new lathe on one of those roller mechanic tool chests. I suspect I would strengthen the top of the cabinet beforehand with a sheet of steel or something to avoid any flex in the cabinet. Other than that, is there anything negative about having a mobile lathe bench? Unfortunately the new lathe won't fit on the bench where I have the old Atlas 618. Don P. ------- Re: What do you think? Posted by: "a8050266" mail4samx~xxgmail.com Date: Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:58 pm ((PST)) DonP. I myself have a roller lathe setup on a 10x42. I was concerned about the roller setup too. For me my shop room is limited. Wheels are almost a must for me. I considered a tool cabinet but could not find one to suit my needs and decided to go the route of building my own. I am of the opinion if the foundation (the tool box or stand, whatever) is structurally sound, and you don't intend on taking your lathe to the next super cross race) I say go for it. You will most likely be happier for it. But build a less than desirable stand and all your projects will suffer. Most tool cabinets are not that rigid I would add a substantial plate on the top. my 2 cents! Sam ------- Re: What do you think? Posted by: "southern_chinook" southern_chinookx~xxyahoo.ca Date: Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:57 pm ((PST)) Sam thanks for that, it seems we are on the same wave length! I'm thinking about a 10 x 22 lathe and have just recently checked out prices for those tool cabinets I was thinking about and am now inclined to build one myself! Don P. ------- Re: What do you think? Posted by: "JOHN PERRY" perry7122x~xxbellsouth.net Date: Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:10 pm ((PST)) My 10" came with factory cast iron legs. I also do not have room to use it stationary. I bolted a 2X4 with casters to the legs to allow me to move as needed. I don't turn long or critical pieces so it works fine. The lathe is very top heavy with a narrow footprint and can easily be turned over if you are not careful to make a wide enough base or happen to hang a castor while moving. This is very dangerous as you could be seriously injured or pinned should the lathe fall on you. John P ------- Re: What do you think? Posted by: "Bruce ." freemab222x~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:06 am ((PST)) No doubt others have done this, but it strikes me as inadvisable. Lathes must be and remain "level". That does not mean the plane of the bed must be perpendicular to the floor, but that the bed must not be twisted. Getting it level to earth's gravity is the simplest way of accomplishing this. (Naturally, it should be approximately level for other reasons related to proper operation of the lathe. Too much of an angle from gravity will have undesirable consequences.) So, you could mount the lathe on an "perfectly RIGID" 3-wheeled table, and once you leveled the whole shebang, all would be well. No matter where you roll a 3-wheeled table, the three wheels remain in the same plane (by definition). OTOH, a 4-wheeled table will only remain true if it is on a perfectly planar floor. A concrete floor may approximate this -- or may not if drains or slopes for drainage are present, not to mention sloppy workmanship. Hence, after you go to all the trouble of truing ("leveling") your lathe in the spot you plan to use it, you roll it away and it goes out of true -- and may remain out of true even after you roll it back to the original spot. ------- Re: What do you think? Posted by: "sapperd06" sapper6x~xxroadrunner.com Date: Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:33 am ((PST)) Don P I use a Grizzly D2058A Shop Fox Super Heavy-Duty Mobile Base. Super base, great for mobility, must order the extension bars D2246A Woodstock International Extension Bars For G7315Z. This will handle 1300lbs. I have no problem with a A/C 12x36 54" bed and a loaded wooden base. I must have 400lbs of stuff in the wood base with drawers and shelves. It has 2 leveling point at on the headstock end and I added one at the tailstock end. I can get it level every time I move it so I don't know what others are talking about. I would recommend this setup to anyone. It has worked great for the last 5 years or so since I have had this as my personal lathe. Don P yes I am the other Don P ------- Re: What do you think? Posted by: "Starlight Tool Services Ltd" starlight_toolsx~xxtelus.net Date: Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:06 pm ((PST)) Don P. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/12x36importlathes/photos/album/261455142/p ic/list There are a few such stands shown on the 12x36 lathe group showing exactly that type of stand made using rolling tool boxes as the frame, or made with a steel cage that holds the tool boxes. Above is one of the links. Search through the other photo albums to see others. Personally, I like my lathe on Casters and use the Footmaster levelling castors for my 14x40 lathe, makes it very easy to move around for cleaning, maintenece etc and can be levelled very quickly. http://www.footmastercasters.com/ Walter ------- Re: What do you think? Posted by: jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:58 pm ((PST)) LeBlond made a lathe on wheels. The frame was the lathe bed. It had 3 wheels. I have a rivett 608. It has a metal stand, with a tray almost 3/16" thick. Even then, the lathe bed is supported on two smallish pedestals. And that is despite the fact that the bed is essentially a block of cast iron approximately 4" x 5" cross-section. They were serious about no twisting. It matters. If you can manage to make that flimsy toolbox NOT distort the lathe mounting surface, you are fine. The toolbox top is paper-thin steel...(at least compared to anything rigid it is paper thin... somewhere around cereal box thickness).... not at all what you want. If you put some sort of thicker rigid material on that "tinsel toolbox" top, then you are starting to get somewhere. If you connect it to the toolbox in 2 places at one end, and one at the other, leaving it on some sort of rubber spacers so it isn't tied directly down, you can do pretty well. No way to transfer meaningful twist to the bed. Roll it wherever you want, and don't worry. You may have a problem with the initial "leveling", though. Now, I'd HATE a rollaround lathe..... I want mine to stay put. But if you want yours to roll, OK....... JT ------- NOTE TO FILE: There were some who criticised this approach, arguing that if the stand twisted, then the lathe might twist. That is only likely if the top on the cabinet can also flex. A flat absolutely inflexible top is the key. The lathe, bolted without twist [use shims as required] to such a top, will not flex just because some part under the top twists or moves at all. I've used such a lathe mobile stand setup and the well reinforced flat top and its solidly attached lathe have remained rock solid and unaffected by the stand's lower portions. I first remove any rocking caused by an uneven floor by carefully adjusting the caster height [mine have heavy duty threaded adjustments for vertical height] and then lock and block all casters solidly before using the lathe. I am extremely careful when setting up a lathe or any machine, and always make sure its stand is perfectly stable for its proper use before turning it on. ------- Portable planer stand [shopbuilttools] Posted by: "JimM" mrecmgrx~xxcox.net Date: Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:51 pm ((PDT)) When we purchased a new gas grill this past Christmas, I saw potential in the frame of the old one. I beefed up the frame, added a top and bottom shelf using scrap lumber and plywood, and put in threaded inserts to bolt the planer down when in use. Now it slides nicely under the bench in my small shop, can be taken out of the shop for larger projects, and even be used for a set-up and/or work table when the planer isn't being used. I like cheap solutions :) Photos in the photo section under "shopkingdom". Jim Mullen Wichita, KS ------- Re: Portable planer stand Posted by: "gdnichols" gdnicholsx~xxaol.com Date: Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:50 am ((PDT)) Looks Good! I am similarly recycling a wagon that came with a garden hose reel on it. It has four pneumatic tires, a platform and a pulling handle. The reel was worn out, so I chucked it and I am mounting my pancake compressor on it, along with electric and hose reels for a 50' Radius. I'm planning a compartmented box to hold nail guns, air chucks and other pneumatic accessories. I'll post a photo when it is completed. Dale ------- Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 22:52:17 -0500 From: Brent Kinsey Subject: [OldTools] Insulating the floor on new out building shop > I am about to have a shop built in the back yard. Due to time constraints I am hiring the shell construction out to a local company that builds portable buildings, sheds and garages. I selected this company because they frame their buildings like a house would be framed, double overlapping plates, wall studs 16 in centers, floor joists 12" centers, well built. Due to local code issues, this will be built on 4x4 skids on concrete piers. I am going to insulate and finish the inside myself and will have heat and air. I want to insulate the floor, but have limited options. Because I hired this out, their construction process and the agreed upon price, I don't want to tie up their crew while I fill the individual floor joists with insulation. Can I lay tyvec over the joists, tape where needed, then lay rigid insulation on top of the joists, then have them fasten the T&G ply floor over the rigid insulation? I didn't know if having rigid insulation under the ply would cause problems. Do any of you have experience with this? Any input would be appreciated. Thanks in advance, Brent K. ------ Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 05:13:18 -0400 From: Ed Minch Subject: Re: [OldTools] Insulating the floor on new out building shop This will work, but the problem is getting enough R-value (insulative value) to do the job. The Tyvek is unnecessary because it is a water barrier and an anti-vapor barrier. If you use extruded styrofoam (blue, pink, green) it is a water barrier AND a vapor barrier, so negates the Tyvek. Where do you live? Another option is to staple the housewrap UNDER the joists, then fill with a fiberglass batt from the top before the plywood goes down. The housewrap is there to keep moving air out of the fiberglass and to keep it from falling down later. In this scenario, fill the cavity regardless of joist size. For a superior job, install 1" of rigid foam on the bottom of the joists, no housewrap, then fill with a fiberglass batt. Ed Minch ------- Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 07:08:32 -0500 From: CGRAF Subject: Re: [OldTools] Insulating the floor on new out building shop I am thinking that the racoons around here would just love that. Dig a hole in the hard insulation and nest up in the batt insulation. Unless you are in Alaska I would think the 25lbpsi rigid at 2" thickness would be plenty. That is 3600 lb per sq ft load for compression. Mike Graf ------- Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 08:56:44 -0800 From: Phil Schempf Subject: Re: [OldTools] Insulating the floor on new out building shop Ya - no raccoons up here, but our bears like to chew up plastic stuff. Probably wouldn't nest between the joists though. Phil ------- Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 14:28:39 -0500 From: Brent Kinsey Subject: Re: [OldTools] Insulating the floor on new out building shop I live in Oklahoma City. Average low temp is about 10 degrees F although we see 0 most years it seems. Aside from the occasional bunny, opossum, and armadillo there isn't much wildlife to worry about. I am going to have skirting down to the ground so that limits access greatly. I am not too worried about losing a couple of inches of interior height so I think I will take the suggestion to simply place the rigid insulation on top of the plywood subfloor and then lay plywood on top of that. Thank you for the information regarding compression strength of rigid insulation. Using that method, I can fit it till my heart's content without interrupting the builders production schedule. Since I am going to have the inside temp controlled, I am trying to get the shop as air tight as possible to minimize heating and cooling costs. I haven't yet decided whether to use a mini split or PTAC for heat and air. If any of you have experience with either in a shop environment I would appreciate your insights. Old tools content: this building will be the new dedicated workspace for a gaggle of type 11 hand planes, a new saw till to hold my nest of saws, and a place to keep and use my ever expanding collec....arsenal of braces and egg beater drills. Regards, Brent K. ------- Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 15:00:33 -0500 From: CGRAF Subject: Re: [OldTools] Insulating the floor on new out building shop Compression strength varies. I have used the high density (25lb). Big Box, I think, is about 15. Mike Graf ------- Putting Liight on your Part [SherlineCNC] Posted by: "Bob" cad2gcodex~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Mar 31, 2013 7:26 am ((PDT)) Hi, I have some Mill and Lathe Lighting Ideas at my webpage at: http://www.cad2gcode.com/cncprojects Cheers Bob A ------- Re: Putting Liight on your Part Posted by: "jowhowho" jowhowhox~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Mar 31, 2013 3:26 pm ((PDT)) I tend toward spot lighting rather than ambient lighting. The fluorescent lights are too bright and harsh, plus they blur the shadows. I find the light from an up close incandescent bulb with a shade to be comfortable and somehow nostalgic. I also have a strobe light for looking at how the chips are coming off the part. ------- How do you protect your machines [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "Tucker Tomlinson" tuckertomlinsonx~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Oct 3, 2013 12:34 pm ((PDT)) Hi All, This might be a little off topic, but it's been on my mind as I read the emails about grinder heads on shapers. I have a little two car garage that I stuff all my tools (and occasionally a car) into, and some tools like grinders make dust that can really damage your equipment. I recognize this isn't the best situation so I try to minimize the damage. I have dedicated covers for each tool, and I make liberal use of the shop-vac to keep the dust to a minimum. That said, I'm always happy to improve. And I do worry about my little South bend 7, which was my first precision tool fix-up. This all leads to my question: What do you do in your shop to keep your machines in good condition? I was thinking mostly of dust wearing at the sliding surfaces, but if you have some other tip I'd love to hear it. Cheers ------- Re: How do you protect your machines Posted by: "Tom Kent" punkforhirex~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Oct 4, 2013 7:14 am ((PDT)) Hey Tucker, I don't think there is a one solution for protecting your equipment, the variables between equipment, conditions, use and personalities are too great. I have machines that may get used once every three months; there is no way I would ever put them under any kind of cover if I didn't have a climate controlled shop. During the fall, winter and mostly spring -- not letting any air circulate around the machine is asking for moisture buildup when covered. Most of the protection in my barn is environmental with climate controls and air cleaning. Sawdust is another way to trap a lot of moisture. I have a couple Harbor Freight 2hp dust collectors that have been modified a bit that work great, one is just for the stuff I can't compress and turn into sawdust logs for the stove, like grit and swarf. I built a couple of roll- around light systems out of 8020 aluminum t-slot. With the stuff left over I made a roll-around dust hoods, they're 25' of 4" hose attached to a square 10" by 10" metal funnel with a blast gate on it; this can be adjusted to any height and any angle, when I work at the wood lathe, metal lathe, shaper, mill, ect. I just roll it with me and it cleans by itself or I throw things in as I go along. In the end I think the best way to protect your shop and the things in it is to just keep it clean whether you do it while you're working or clean it when you're done. As for grinding and its mess, ask yourself just how much grinding do you think you will do? Most home shop grinding is done in less then what 30 minutes? depending on the job. Then how often 2-3 times a year? I would suspect most home shop guys aren't running production doing 50-60-4,000 pieces of the same part? So the mess is very minimal. Just my 2 cents TK ------- Re: How do you protect your machines Posted by: "Druid Noibn" druid_noibnx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Oct 4, 2013 8:49 am ((PDT)) Hi, Covers are nice -- if folks use them. Be aware of condensation under the covers as the temperatures changes -- keeping the machines vented is a good idea. Always wipe-down the machines with an oil-rag. Coat the contact surfaces with oil -- many suggest "way" or "bar" oil. Personal bias -- I love WD-40, but not for this use -- over time it leaves a brown stain, and that bothers me. Be well, DBN ------- Re: How do you protect your machines Posted by: "Tom Kent" punkforhirex~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Oct 4, 2013 11:27 am ((PDT)) Hi DBN, That brown staining your seeing from WD40 is moisture trapped by the WD40. Popular Science did a comparison on different ways to protect machines from rust when not in use and found that. I'll see if I can find that issue and post it in the photo section. A product that I find works great is PB Blaster Corrosion Stop: http://www.blastercorporation.com/Corrosion_Stop.html TK ------- Re: How do you protect your machines Posted by: "Tucker Tomlinson" tuckertomlinsonx~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Oct 4, 2013 11:29 am ((PDT)) Thanks for the input. This is why I asked, you guys immediately thought of something I hadn't: condensation under the cover never occurred to me as a problem. I assume that a breathable cover like a sewn up bed sheet would be OK till it got oily enough not to breath. I always wipe down with oil after each use. I'm wary of WD40, because it's more volatile than normal oils, and eventually evaporates off, pulling whatever regular oil you had with it. I always thought that brown coat was a thin layer of surface rust forming after the WD40 had gone away. I don't have space for a full dust collector, but I have been thinking of fabbing up a small square funnel attachment for my Shop vac. Not totally ideal, but better than nothing for tools that have no shop-vac hookup like hand grinders. Regarding mess frequency: I don't do all that much bench grinding: mostly to rough sharpen HSS shaper/lathe bits, but I do a fair bit of hand grinding for welding prep. I also do a fair bit of wood working and between the Delta standing belt sander and my Ryobi hand held I can make a lot of fine sawdust. I've heard that sawdust can kill machines because it soaks up oil, pulling it from bearings. So wood working is really my major source of worry. I guess really I'm thinking about general good shop practice here, not specifically grinding dust. Cheers ------- Re: How do you protect your machines Posted by: "Tom Kent" punkforhirex~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Oct 4, 2013 11:46 am ((PDT)) Hey Tucker, No a sheet really won't work, it's the temperature differential that causes moisture buildup so a sheet works just like it does on your bed; it holds in heat and moisture. Do you have room in the rafters of your garage? If so you have room for a dust collector. But a shop vac works very well; it just doesn't move as much volume of air. Sawdust is a moisture wick, be it water or oil, so collecting it the best you can is a good idea for your shop. TK ------- Re: How I protect my machines Posted by: "Jon Sumpter" jonsmptrx~xxmsn.com Date: Fri Oct 4, 2013 7:08 pm ((PDT)) Hi Folks, I live on the Oregon coast and we do have lots of humidity and temperature changes everyday. Fall and spring is the worst for condensation on my machines. I use water soluble cutting oil straight as a moisture barrier. 7AM -- I walk into the shop and the oil on all the machine ways are cream colored where the dew of the evening is absorbed. Warming up by 10AM, the oil on my machines is clear oil shine and not a lick of rust ANYWHERE where the soluble oil was applied. As for dust collection, a quick swipe of a grease rag to the machine I'm going to use, works. There are probably disadvantages to my method, but it's cheap, low tech and works weeks at a time. Jon S ------- Re: How I protect my machines Posted by: "Rex Burkheimer" burkheimerx~xxgmail.com Date: Sat Oct 5, 2013 6:48 am ((PDT)) I keep a few of my machines covered when not in use just to keep dust off them. I don't do much woodworking there so that's not an issue. LMS makes a cover for the minilathe. I wish they made a lot more varieties, I would buy them. I do have some issues with rust. I restored a nice mill last year, and was alarmed to find new rust on it as well as my pristing Millrite. So I researched and searched for the ultimate rust preventative. I think I have found the answer: Lanolin. I bought a pound of the pure stuff on ebay, and have applied it to every bare metal surface I have found. Mostly I've used a paintbrush, but I will dilute it 5:1 with mineral spirits and use a trigger spray going forward. So far I've been using for 6 months, including a humid summer. If I make it through winter with no rust I'll consider it a success. Here's where I got the idea: http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/f25/rust-prevention-lano lin-its-better-then-oil-21073/ Google Lanolin machinist for more on the topic. Apparently it's been common knowledge among old machinists and mariners. Rex B - DFW ------- Re: How I protect my machines Posted by: "Ian Renshaw" ijrenshawx~xxgmail.com Date: Sat Oct 5, 2013 7:28 am ((PDT)) I have used a sacrificial anode with great success. You can purchase a zinc one from places that service the marine industry. Just bolt it on the steel surface (must have an electrical connection) and you're good to go for many years. All the parts that are electrically connected will be protected. Here's some more information: http://chemwiki.ucdavis.edu/Analytical_Chemistry/Electrochemistry/Ca se_Studies/Corrosion/Sacrificial_Anode Best Regards, Ian R. ------- Re: How I protect my machines Posted by: "Druid Noibn" druid_noibnx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Oct 5, 2013 2:30 pm ((PDT)) Hi, Curious as to how you implemented the sacrificial anode, i.e., what did you attach, what did you attach it to and where did you attach it? Kind regards, DBN ------- Re: How I protect my machines Posted by: "Ian Renshaw" ijrenshawx~xxgmail.com Date: Sat Oct 5, 2013 2:58 pm ((PDT)) Hi, I attached a zinc anode to a steel bar and then bolted it to the back of a Myford 254 lathe bed. I have just purchased an AMMCO shaper and plan to bolt one on the table which is steel and has an electrical connection to the shaper. Best Regards, Ian ------- Re: How I protect my machines Posted by: "Tucker Tomlinson" tuckertomlinsonx~xxgmail.com Date: Sat Oct 5, 2013 3:36 pm ((PDT)) I'm curious as well -- I thought sacrificial anodes required a conductive liquid (salt water) to act as the solvent for the anode. Kind of like how a battery works ------- Re: How I protect my machines Posted by: "Keelan Lightfoot" keelanx~xxbeefchicken.com Date: Sat Oct 5, 2013 4:51 pm ((PDT)) That was my understanding too. It seems to me that there needs to be a complete electrical circuit formed between all three materials (iron, anode, water) for anodic protection to be effective. Keelan ------- Re: How I protect my machines Posted by: "Tom Kent" punkforhirex~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Oct 5, 2013 7:10 pm ((PDT)) You would need DC negitive current for this to work and depending on the mass of the machine a large amount of current and a very large ground plane in order for this to work. It would be cheaper and easier to get Cathodic protection by having the machine zinc galvanized. The low voltage DC Cathodic protection systems have been proven not to work, the FTC ordered all those companies that were making them for cars off the market, like that Rust Evadar that was always on info tv in the 90's -- anybody remember that? Zinc anodes are used in saltwater applications; in soil or freshwater copper or copper-sulfate anodes are used; aluminum can be used but is not as good as copper. Something you may want to know is [what happens] when you place a piece of raw zinc in contact with cast iron. When the corrosion current starts, a hydrogen ion is stripped from the zinc; this in turn is absorbed by the iron or steel and what happens is hydrogen embrittlement; this makes the iron or steel brittle over time. The larger the contact area between the cathode and anode the greater this reaction. ------- Re: How do you protect your machines Posted by: "Glen Linscheid" partsproductionx~xxcenturylink.net Date: Sun Oct 13, 2013 5:28 am ((PDT)) > I guess I'll need a huge gun safe! I disagree with their explanation, even with a low humidity if temperature changes happen that brings the objects below the dewpoint come into contact with warmer air if any moisture content. One thing about a safe with or without a heater is that the temperature changes change much less than the temperature of the room it is in, that is why an insulated machine shop has much less rust than an uninsulated one. But if the object in question never gets below the dewpoint condensation cannot form on it. That is why a lathe with a light under it in an uninsulated garage is less likely to rust. We can't reasonably change the oxygen content, we can change the moisture content of the ambient air, and we can change the temperature of both the air in the work area as well as that of the metal objects themselves. If there are wild changes of temperature in your workplace with lower ends below the dewpoint you must get condensation unless you heat the tools and or remove the moisture. Now, if you have a box in the center of your garage with tools in it and the shop air temp. changes wildly you know that the temp. swings inside that box will be less extreme, right? So, the goldenrod elevates the average temperature of the air and of the objects inside. So, humidity being the same the temperature swings will be less extreme and the tools above the dewpoint as well. You could also seal your gunsafe tight and fill it with nitrogen, no oxidation can happen then, hard to breath though. ------- Re: How do you protect your machines Posted by: "John Fischer" n2nux~xxarrl.net Date: Sun Oct 13, 2013 6:48 am ((PDT)) This all makes sense. Generally speaking, if you can keep the relative humidity at the surface of your tool below 60% or so, you can do a good job controlling the rust. If you get much above this value, rust will form pretty quickly. RH = actual vapor density of water / saturation vapor density. There are several ways to keep the RH Low. If you are in a low humidity area such as the American South West, you are good (not much help here in NJ). Otherwise, you can remove the water from the space (e.g. with a dehumidifier or dessicant) which reduces the actual water vapor density of the air (numerator of the RH equation). Or you can increase the denominator of the equation by increasing the temperature, increasing the saturation vapor density (e.g. Golden rod). As you state, you certainly never want to condense water onto your tools by having them fall below the dewpoint. One way to avoid this is to heat the tool so that it never falls below the dewpoint. Standard dehumidifiers have trouble getting you much below 30-40 % RH at room temp. Dessicants can get you really low values of RH, but really need a well enclosed space since they are easily saturated, necessitating their regeneration or replacement. If we have a shop space with wild swings in air temperature our biggest problem tends to be the condensation problem, due to tools cooling overnight and the rapid increase of temperature in the am. Since the room temp comes up quickly, any humid air will condense on the relatively cooler tools and that is bad. This is exacerbated in places like here in NJ, where you can have 95%+ RH’s and temp swings of 30-40 degrees. My shop is in my normally unheated detached garage, so I have a fairly serious problem. Good Insulation and keeping the space sealed up has helped a great deal (thermal swings are less severe, and the rate of change is slower). This has almost eliminated all my rusting problem. I use a dehumidifier, especially in the spring and fall when temp swings are greatest. Also, I try to keep surfaces well covered and wiped down with oil to keep the water and oxygen away from the surface of the metal. Cheers! John ------- Re: How do you protect your machines Posted by: "Rex Burkheimer" burkheimerx~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:02 am ((PDT)) The time-honored alternative to a Goldenrod is a bare incandescent bulb burning in the base of the machine. CFLs need not apply. Rex B - DFW ------- Re: How do you protect your machines Posted by: "Nelson Collar" nel2larx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:11 am ((PDT)) My opinion is WD-40 is garbage. Buy an oil based lube. WD-40 will mix with water and rust will appear even using it. Liquid Wrench, PB Breaker, Sta-Bil and Royal Blue are some that are very good and lubes but they are thinner than most oil used on a lathe. That means the way oil can get washed off. The thing I use in North Florida is cover the lathe with an oily rag. Covered with a heavy blanket and placing a 40 watt light under the lathe. The heat produced will stay long enough to heat the lathe up to the point that condensation forms. That is what I been working for me and the light is almost like a night light burning. Good luck with the wet. Nelson Collar ------- Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 10:26:36 -0700 From: scott grandstaff Subject: Re: [OldTools] Rusted in screw The one thing I do know. If you hurry, you lose. 100% of the time haste makes waste. Since you have soaking the screw for a while its time for impact. Get an impact driver. Get one that is at least slightly better than the 99cent ones at Walmart. Test the impact driver every single time before you use it! Every single time. They slip back and forth between settings in the most irritating manner. You can't tell by looking. If you know someone who tells you they hate impact drivers? This is why. It slipped and ruined their work and they didn't know why. To test, just place it on a piece of scrap wood and push. Horizontal pushing, where you can get your hip involved, is best. Push the driver straight in and note which way it twists. It will go down straight and then twist at the bottom of the stroke. Have your work secured either in a sturdy vise or clamped to a table or somewhere it won't move, but it's cushioned from directly underneath the screw against wood or something about that hardness (aluminum? copper? lead?). When you are sure you have the driver set to unscrew, place the driver in the screw slot. Note exactly where the slot is pointing. You want to be able to discern any movement at all, so mentally line up the slot with a nearby immoveable object. Now twist your wrist as if you were unscrewing the screw. Provide moderate pressure. Swat with a hammer. I like a 16oz ball pein for this but any mid sized hammer will do. Continue twisting the wrist, as you hit the driver. Firm blows. Not swinging for the bleachers but not limp wristed blows either. You have to hit. Keep watching that slot!! Many times, in about 10-12 blows it moves just a little. Stop when it does. It's more in danger of breaking the head off now, than any other time. So stop the second it barely begins to move. Switch to a screwdriver that fits the slot exactly and try to drive the screw back in. It may move a hair, or not. It it won't move at all, you have to go back to the impact. If it moves even a little bit, you got it!! As long as you don't hurry. What you want to do now is drive the screw in and out your 20th of a turn. You are working the oil down to the bottom of the screw. Many times you can soak oil forever and it won't ever get to the bottom of a screw. But working the threads, even a little, will work it down. Keep applying oil and keep working the screw in and out. Soon you will find you can turn it a bit more and go with that. More oil, work it. Stick with it. You got it. As long as you don't try to horse it from here, it will eventually walk right out for you. It's a little bit of a freaky feeling when it does finally walk all the way out for you. It's like you are holding your breath as the dagger slowly slips free. You'll see. yours Scott Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 scottgx~xxsnowcrest.net http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html ------- Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 16:24:10 -0700 From: James Thompson Subject: [OldTools] Salvaging parts with broken screws embedded Time for a short lesson on salvaging parts which contain broken off screws. There is much ado about getting those pesky stuck screws out, but what do you do about it when one is broken off and cannot be removed? You can use a heli-coil, but that is an expensive repair, because you have to buy a tap to go with the heli-coil. What's that? You don't have a machine shop? Oh me, oh my, what will I do? I cannot spin the straw into gold. Yeah, you can. Consider this. When you drill a 1/4" hole with a full sized 1/4" drill, do you get a hole that measures 1/4? Of course not. Tear out from the walls as the drill removes metal causes the final hole to be slightly oversized. The proof of this is that you can slip in a full sized 1/4" unthreaded rod with little resistance. This means that the hole is about .003" oversized. It will not serve for a plug. But what if you could drill a 1/4" hole that was exactly 1/4"? You can. First you drill a hole that is 1/64" undersized. Then you drill it with the full sized drill. The result will be an on-size hole. There will be little or no tearout because you are removing only .008" of wall. The proof of this is that you cannot insert a rod of that size, because a hole and shaft of the same size is a press fit. It requires at least .003" clearance for a slip fit. So what does this have to do with repairing a munged hole? If you obtain either some drill rod or cold rolled steel rod in a size larger than your threaded hole, and then drill the hole 1/64" undersized first, and then drill with a full sized drill, you will have the makings of a press fit. The easiest way to put the plug in the hole is to heat the piece to 400 degrees by whatever means you have available to you. As quickly as you can, put the plug in the hole. It might require a slight tap to go all the way in. If you are really want to be sure it will go in easily, then freeze the plug first. When the piece cools you have a good repair. Be sure that the plug is exactly the correct length first. I do not have a metal lathe, so what I do to prepare my plug is to put the plug into a drill chuck and spin it while I advance a small center drill into the end to establish a good center. This gives me a perfect center to drill after the plug is installed. After I drill a tap size hole I can tap the threads. If the old screws happened to be the non-standard variety, this is a good way to change them to standard. I probably need to do this with pictures for the wkfinetools site. ------- Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 17:34:46 -0700 From: Brian Rytel Subject: Re: [OldTools] Rusted in screw On Tue, Oct 22, 2013, Roy wrote: > I will second the use of Kroil. The only thing supposedly better in testing is a 50/50 blend of acetone and ATF. The acetone speeds up the penetration. Take your time as others have advised. It took years for that screw to seize up. You can take a few soaking days to get it free again. Good luck! Roy P. < I had a lever cap adjuster screw get stuck in a #5 frog awhile ago. I tried the ATF-Acetone 50/50 cocktail and nothing (now my default when simple 3-1 penetrating won't cut it.) Got a bigger screwdriver, etc. But I could just tell it was seized. I soaked it again with 50/50 and put the frog into a ziplock bag. I put that in the freezer for ~45 min while I did other cleaning on the plane. I then took it out of the freezer and bag and let it warm up to room temperature for a couple hours until it stopped feeling very cold. Note: it will be very cold when you take it out, so much so that I'd recommend avoiding skin contact. To repeat: I waited till it was nearly room temp. I poured a little more 50/50 around the screw and very gently applied pressure. The threads slipped and it came out somewhat easily. I'm not 100% sure why this worked. It may have been the contraction then expansion of both parts broke whatever bond they had. It also may have been that the cast-iron frog warmed up more quickly than the screw which gave the screw a little room to move. Freezing cast-iron is asking for a crack, so try at your own risk. Brian J.M. Rytel ------- Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 22:41:56 -0400 From: "Cliff Rohrabacher Esq." Subject: Re: [OldTools] Salvaging parts with broken screws embedded On 10/22/2013, James Thompson wrote: > Tear out from the walls as the drill removes metal causes the final > hole to be slightly oversized. I believe the cause of the over size hole is simply drill point run out which is inevitable given as how there's only two flutes and ( more importantly) the center of the drill point (the web) is not really cutting anything but merely shoving the metal aside. So the point of the drill wobbles making a three lobed hole. Yes three lobed. I once lost a bet on that one. A J&L optical comparator put me in my place. Over and over the holes had three lobes and they don't run straight they spiral. So when you drill a pilot hole you solve for some of this Anyway I have a slew of helicoils (two boxes of a thousand of 3/8-16 and 1-4-20 with detents) so I'm kind of enthusiastic about drilling stuck screws out willi nilly. But I now have a new favorite way to remove stuck bolts. Arc welder. Yep weld a slug on the busted bolt, grab the vice grips and between the heating and the later twisting and the application of some oil when it was still blistering hot and it comes out slicker'n anything. There's even special rods just for this sort of thing, but you don't really need 'em. ------- Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 22:02:39 -0700 From: James Thompson Subject: Re: [OldTools] Salvaging parts with broken screws embedded First things first. It's a bolt if it has a nut on one end. If it goes into a tapped hole, it's a cap screw. Broken cap screws are reasonably easy to remove if there is enough of the screw sticking up to make welding it possible. (I have removed larger screws broken below the surface by build up welding on the screw end to make the screw stick up enough to weld a nut on.) If there is some of the screw sticking up, the most certain way to securely weld a nut onto it is to go to the drill press, clamp the nut into a vise, and using either a large countersink or a large drill, cut a bevel in the nut so you can see the end of the screw easily, and see the weld as it happens. This will greatly improve your chances of success. But if it is broken off flush with the surface, welding is problematic. Particularly on 1/4" or smaller screws. For these, I use a fender washer, one with a large outside diameter and a small hole. The hole needs to be slightly smaller than the diameter of the root of the thread. You can make your own washer from any sheet of metal. You weld this washer securely to the screw, leaving a weld that is flush with the washer. Now you place a nut on the washer and weld around the outside of the nut. If you want, it is OK to weld inside as well, but it won't really help much. After the weldment has cooled a little, you apply your lubricant. If one is available I like to use an air driven impact wrench. Set it to lightly rattle the screw. Go back, then forward, repeat, add lube, repeat. When it becomes obvious that it isn't going to work, increase the strength of the impact. Keep doing this until you succeed or you break off the nut and washer. Some oldtime list members will remember that I spent a grand total of 24 years working in a steel mill as a master welder where I removed broken bolts and screws daily by welding on them. I was taught by the oldtimers who had forgotten more than I could ever learn. When the old masters died or retired, I became their replacement. I have had my share of failures. Some screws just aren't going to come out, no matter what you do. But this method will work where many others simply will not. ------- Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 09:22:07 -0500 From: James Van Vleet Subject: Re: [OldTools] Rusted in screw I have a suggestion that is less risky. I recently went through this with that little screw that holds the nicker on a 78. I did many days of variants of Kroil and other oily/penetrating things that had no impact. Bent a few screwdrivers using force. Did a heat gun with no luck. Tapped with a hammer and had no result. Finally I got mad and put the body, screw and nicker as a unit into the electrolysis bath. Left it there for a few days, pulled it out and the screw turned right out. This same thing worked well on a few stuck bench plane frogs screws over the years. I don't know why it works - in theory the line of sight is just not there, but I have had success over the years. James ------- Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 09:47:53 -0700 From: James Thompson Subject: Re: [OldTools] Saw guidance please and thank you Senior moment flashback to misplaced information. When working in the field where there was no compressed air to drive an impact wrench, I sometimes had to improvise to remove a broken screw. One of those improvisations was to use a piece of flat stock, bar stock, or whatever was available, to make a tool. What I did was drill an appropriately sized hole in a flat bar, bend both ends up an inch, more or less, and weld this flat bar to the offending screw through the hole. Then I used 2 hammers or pieces of heavy scrap steel to hammer on both ends of the bar at the same time, imitating a slow moving impact driver. The length of the bar generated a lot of torque onto the screw. Just another method for skinning a cat. James Thompson ------- Scrap clean up [taigtools] Posted by: davidj93x~xxhotmail.com Date: Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:20 pm ((PDT)) Hi all, Does anyone know of a little vaccum system that could attach to the bed of the taig to pick up all the plastic pieces that get thrown all over my work area? I usually just vaccum everything up but there has to be something better I can do. Basically it is just the little plastic scraps that fly off the part when they are being machined. Thanks so much and I really appreciate it. Sincerely, Dave ------- Re: Scrap clean up Posted by: "Paul J. Ste. Marie" taigx~xxste-marie.org Date: Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:27 am ((PDT)) Do you have an enclosure for your Taig? It can be as simple as 2x2's and cardboard, or something more elaborate. ------- Re: Scrap clean up Posted by: "WAM" ajawam2x~xxcomcast.net Date: Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:12 am ((PDT)) Here's a vid - the vac doesn't attach to the bed - the cutting area is always in the same place, so it just mounts nearby: http://home.comcast.net/%7Eajawam1/DSCN1990.wmv Just a Shop vac wired to start with the mist coolant output from Mach 3 using a relay. Typically I only use the vac for cutting plastics. I just put up some Lexan and made a sliding door... pic of the setup: http://home.comcast.net/~ajawam3/swarf/maxnc.html ------- Re: Scrap clean up Posted by: "Paul J. Ste. Marie" taigx~xxste-marie.org Date: Tue Oct 29, 2013 7:37 am ((PDT)) After I went with the full enclosure http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/taigtools/photos/albums/812768310/lig htbox/1827043060?orderBy=ordinal&sortOrder=asc The mess was all confined and vacuuming it up periodically is NBD [No Big Deal]. I've thought about cutting a hole to attach a vac in the bench, but concluded I'd drop too many pieces in the hole along with the swarf. Your clumsiness may vary :-) ------- Re: Scrap clean up Posted by: davidj93x~xxhotmail.com Date: Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:44 am ((PDT)) Thanks everyone for responding. I really appreciate it. Paul, that is one of the more impressive enclosures I have seen. It looks great. Was it difficult to make? You aren't by any chance in Northern California are you :)? I sure would love to either make one of those or purchase one. Outstanding and thanks for your thoughts. Dave ------- Re: Scrap clean up Posted by: "Paul Archibald" androbusx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:53 pm ((PDT)) maybe wrong Paul, but i am! I like the enclosure! I was thinkig about building up something similar to enclose both a taig lathe and mill. I am still looking at my pile of parts to make one and a half taig lathes, and figuring how to build up a mill from the second headstock assembly and build up a stronger adjustable upright assy. Paul ------- Re: Scrap clean up Posted by: "Paul J. Ste. Marie" taigx~xxste-marie.org Date: Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:03 pm ((PDT)) There's another enclosure in the archive made from 8020 that inspired this one. > Was it difficult to make? You aren't by any chance in Northern > California are you:)? Not terribly. I got a deal on the polycarbonate -- about 75% off list. The rest is 10-series 80/20. You can scout deals on their eBay store and optimize for the pieces that you need. Some of the fasteners I got from a 3rd party seller -- don't remember the name offhand, and I bought the machine screws and handles from Amazon. The drill jig 80/20 sells is worth its weight in gold. The stuff cuts nicely on a table saw with a non-ferrous blade. You definitely want to use a good quality spiral point tap when tapping the ends and the aluminum tapping fluid from Tap Magic (the green stuff). Other than that, the photo album shows most of the assembly tricks. ------- Re: Scrap clean up Posted by: davidj93x~xxhotmail.com Date: Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:54 pm ((PDT)) Paul, would you ever be interested in selling one of those enclosures? It is gorgeous and you did a fantastic job. I looked through all the pics and thanks for showing exactly what you did. Very helpful. However I am not the best with my hands, so I thought I would ask. Thanks Paul! ------- Re: Scrap clean up Posted by: "Paul J. Ste. Marie" taigx~xxste-marie.org Date: Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:43 pm ((PDT)) If this was my day job I'd be glad to, but it's not so alas no can do. I can get you a part list and machining instructions. 80/20 will kit it all up for you and do all the machining, but it will be pricey. My guess is $300-400 minimum, but when it arrives you'll just need a 5/32 allen wrench to put it together. Also, they are amazing experts at shipping, which I'm not. ------- Re: Scrap clean up Posted by: amandax~xxalfar.com amandawalker Date: Fri Nov 1, 2013 8:20 am ((PDT)) I made a less elegant enclosure out of melamine-surfaced pressboard and a stand made out of 2x4s and 4x4s. It was cheap, but it works pretty well. This is not a great photo, but you can just barely see the sheet of acrylic I set across the opening while the machine is running to catch particularly high-flying chips. http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/taigtools/photos/albums/613909313/lig htbox/1589038723 Amanda ------- Re: Scrap clean up Posted by: "Pat Goodyear" kf6pbnx~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Nov 1, 2013 9:20 am ((PDT)) Been seeing the ideas, I use a piece of folded thin cardboard to catch the back swarf. I stop frequently to remove the large curls. I have a bucket I put the aluminum swarf in, that becomes my feed for the furnace to cast new parts. Anyhow Plexiglass or Lexan is easy to cut and bend. To cut score it with a razor knife, then break it over a rigid edge; a pipe or large dowel may work. If using a power tool to cut, use an extremely fine blade and go very slow; it will melt and chip easily. To bend it, a heat gun is the ticket; support it where you don't want it bent and heat it up slowly and allow gravity to do the rest. For instance, want a drip edge, clamp it between two 2x4's and heat the panel where it comes out; it will bend to the radius of the 2x4. When drilling use a hand drill or a power drill at a very slow rpm and don't hog it or it will chip and crack. To finish the edges use a heat gun or a propane torch to gently melt the edge and allow it to flow; don't stay in one place very long. If one practices one can even form compound curves. I have made canopies for models by supporting the outside shape and heating in an oven, using 1/16 th or thinner. Pat ------- Re: Scrap clean up Posted by: yrralguthriex~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Nov 1, 2013 12:12 pm ((PDT)) If you go to the 80-20 web site you can find a link for them to build the enclosure for you. Just get in touch with them and send them a picture of Paul's design and they can make one for you. You won't have to draw or design anything. As Paul said, it will be pricey. What he made was not cheap. The structural shapes are not so expensive, but the special hinges, connectors, and screws are. Larry ------- Re: Scrap clean up Posted by: "Paul J. Ste. Marie" taigx~xxste-marie.org pstemari Date: Sat Nov 2, 2013 12:26 am ((PDT)) I knew there was reason to keep old email around. tnutz.com is the place I was thinking of. He has most of the specialty connnectors for about 1/2 the 80-20 price. Lexan panels are the most expensive parts. I lurked on eBay and picked some up for about 1/3 the normal price per sq ft. I've uploaded a spreadsheet with a BOM and part numbers for the base enclosure to the files section. Look for "MillEnclosure8020-fullbom.xlsx". My notes on the CNC control box are sketchy, and I don't think I ever had an actual plan for the keyboard tray or the monitor mount. ------- Re: Scrap clean up Posted by: "Don Rogers" Donx~xxCampbell-Gemstones.com Date: Fri Nov 1, 2013 5:29 pm ((PDT)) I decided that I needed an enclosure. My mill sets in a drip pan, one you get at the hardware store to slip under your car to catch drops. I decided that I would use some 20 mil clear vinyl for the windows and 3/4" PVC piping for the frame. To mount it to the base, I decided to use some 3" diameter magnets from Harbor Freight. I butchered some PVC fittings to attach the magnets to, and killed a couple 20ft lengths of pvc building the frame. Woops I didn't allow for the X stepper motor at full right table. Woops, I didn't plan on Y motor well enough. My lift off front was catching and after a couple re-designs, I gave up on the idea. The killer was not being able to find clips to attach the Vinyl to the frame. I checked around with some of the Ag stores as it was similar to the temp hothouse designs put up with bows of PVC and the plastic clipped to it. The answer was to use the black irrigation tubing of the same size as the PVC and cut inch to inch and a half lengths and then slit them lengthwise. Great. I go to the Farmers supply and tell them what I need. Ah, sorry, we have the tubing but it comes in 250ft rolls; we don't cut short lengths. Why do I share all of this? Taking the "cheap way out" isn't likely going to be the cheap way. I've a Ben Franklin and a Ulysses Grant invested in a pile of junk pipes and a roll of vinyl. ($150 for those not familiar with US currency). I am still looking at the full cost of making a proper enclosure for my mill and the final cost will be $150 more than it should have cost me. My one possibility to salvage the project is to see if the local Habit for Humanity has some long length of Track lighting channels. They look as if they may make a good frame, or is it more money and time down the rabbit hole? Don ------- Re: Scrap clean up Posted by: ddi92234x~xxaol.com steve_fornelius2000 Date: Sat Nov 2, 2013 1:06 am ((PDT)) I went the other route, I can't use an enclosure because my mill sits on a desk and I use the desk for tools, etc. So I made a swarf curtain for my mill using 1/8" x 3/4 cheapo aluminum from the hardware store, some double faced tape, and plastic from a heavy weight bag. The frame mounts to the headstock and the plastic drapes onto and around the tables. The plastic is cut into 1/2" strips, somewhat like they use in cold storage areas as pass throughs. This way the swarf is concentrated right around the mill and there is no limitation on length of stock or distance the tables move. What I relied on was that the swarf generally travels in an up and out direction, that the swarf doesn't have any real mass to stop, that I should be able to watch the operation through the plastic, and obviously the cutter can't come into contact with the plastic. Version 1: 1/4 6061 aluminum used for frame - tooooo thick to bend nicely in a vice. Plastic too thin to drape properly. Clothespins to hold plastic to frame - cumbersome. Version 2: same frame but with fiberglass window screen material. Drapes well, but the edges catch on each other too much. Version 3: 1/8" frame with heavier plastic works ok, but needs two layers to cover gaps as the table moves, and needs longer at the back to stop swarf in that direction. I'm aiming for at least 95% of the swarf to be within 4 inches of the mill, and it's coming along nicely as I have time. For testing, I'm flycutting aluminum bar stock up to 2" above the table. Steve ------- pedeestal lathe 'feet' [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: rosslathex~xxyahoo.com rosslathe Date: Tue Sep 9, 2014 11:29 am ((PDT)) I am about to dangle my 3996 with an engine lift into its final resting place and wonder what people have used under the feet of the cabinet. I have a concrete shop floor that is fairly level -- I wonder about 2x6 artfully shaped going front to back in the 3 leg pairs -- lag bolted to the feet and shimmed if needed for level? Anything more artful or useful? Jim ------- Re: pedeestal lathe 'feet' Posted by: "Dan Buchanan" db45acpx~xxyahoo.com db45acp Date: Tue Sep 9, 2014 12:54 pm ((PDT)) Jim, I uploaded photos of what I have on my Craftsman 101.28990 equivalent lathe. See Photos/Albums/DB45ACP Cabinet Lathe Casters. https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/atlas_craftsman/photos/alb ums/839645157 They are from Access Casters. Model# 3P80S 3" Leveling Caster Hexagon Plate They have heavy duty cast bodies, rated at 2200 lbs. each, and have an adjustable pad that screws down to the floor. I have 6 on my Craftsman 101.28990, and it is very stable and additionally quiet from vibrations when in use. I thought I could get away with just 4 but 6 are much better. I only had to enlarge the holes in the cabinet a little to accept the stems. Easy to level and very stable. You could probably get away with the 25P80S which have 2-1/2" wheels and are slightly less in price. Prices have risen since I got mine in 2011. They were $28.00 then. Access lists them on eBay sometimes for a little less. There are others that are similar but I am very happy with these for the price. I also have them on the base of my Clausing 8530 mill. Helps keep the machines mobile in my crowded space. Takes only a few minutes to move it into place and fire it up. Dan in Nevada ------- Re: pedeestal lathe 'feet' Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Tue Sep 9, 2014 7:47 pm ((PDT)) Don't use wood. It will shrink and grow with humidity changes. Set the legs directly on the concrete. Mark the concrete through the mounting holes in the feet. Move the lathe out of the way and drill and set anchors. Move the lathe back over the anchors and install the studs through the holes in the legs. Then shim under the six anchor points with U-shaped shims. Shim to get the drip pan level front to back and 1/16" to 1/8" low at the right end. Carpenter's levels are adequate for this step. Then level the bed using a precision level (carpenter's levels are NOT adequate for this step). If possible, recheck the bed level annually. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: pedeestal lathe 'feet' Posted by: jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net jtiers Date: Tue Sep 9, 2014 8:13 pm ((PDT)) An alternate suggestion is to put at each point a stud, but instead of shimming, put double nuts on the stud. One below the foot, one above. These may be adjusted quite finely, and tightened against the foot to secure. The larger the stud the better, of course. In a factory, with a large machine, the next step would be to "grout" the machine in, grouting all around wherever there is a support area close to the floor. That would certainly provide a secure mounting. In my case, having a Logan on a steel stand, (not the OEM unit), I used large metal "feet" instead of anchors. I put a very thin rubber layer on the bottom (about 20-30 thou, on feet 3" square) to prevent shifting. The studs are in the "feet" and are double-nutted as above. Whenever I check the level, it hasn't shifted. Jerry ------- Re: pedeestal lathe 'feet' Posted by: "Carvel Webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za cwlathes Date: Tue Sep 9, 2014 10:26 pm ((PDT)) I have used the metal plates/ feet - studs - double nut arrangement which Jerry has suggested for some years, and it works very well. ( I did add heavy duty washers to the double nuts :>) Regards, Carvel ------- Re: pedeestal lathe 'feet' Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org shdesigns2003 Date: Tue Sep 9, 2014 8:25 pm ((PDT)) If the legs have holes use bolts with 2 nuts (one above to lock and one below.) Then you can adjust them level. My stand had angle-iron legs. I tapped for 1/2-20 bolts and put a lock nut on them. Then I could level it. If you want some shock mounting, I hear hockey pucks work well under the feet. Just a slight dampening. Too bad noone seems to sell them here. For leveling, I used a level with a laser pointer laid across the bed. Level roughly with a cheap level. Then lay the pointer on one end and shine a point in the center on the far wall. Mark the wall and place the pointer on the opposite end. Adjust each end so the pointer hits the same spot. My far wall is 20' away do with a 6" wide bed, the lathe will be within 1/40th of the error in the dot. I probably have it less than 0.001" with a $10 level ;) Scott G. Henion, Stone Mountain, GA Craftsman 12x36 lathe: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 Welding pages and homemade welder: http://shdesigns.org/Welding ------- Re: pedeestal lathe 'feet' Posted by: wa5cabx~xxcs.com wa5cab Date: Tue Sep 9, 2014 8:39 pm ((PDT)) That's actually a good idea, if you have an almost empty shop. The lowest elevation at which I could reasonably expect to shine a horizontal beam at a vertical surface more than 4' or 5' away is over 7'. From the lathe bed itself, not possible in any direction. Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 ------- Re: pedeestal lathe 'feet' - Hockey Puck Feet Posted by: "Starlight Tool Services Ltd" starlight_toolsx~xxtelus.net Date: Wed Sep 10, 2014 7:18 am ((PDT)) Hockey pucks work Awesome for machinery mounts. About half of my shop is on Hockey Puck mounts, the other half on FootMaster Casters. It keeps my pedestal grinder from dancing around the floor, same with the workbench, arbour press and even the laundry tub sink in the shop bathroom. The rubber is hard enough that it holds the weight without deforming, but soft enough that it grips the floor and works as an anti-skid. Basic Hockey Puck Levelling Foot. Counterbore bottom side of puck 1-1/8" dia for 3/8" deep, then through drill 1/2" Dia. (I have a 1-1/8 drill bit that has been ground into a counterbore that works well for this.) Bits need to be sharpened often as the rubber wears off the edge, but they drill quickly and cleanly with sharp bits. Make or get some 1/2" Fender washers from 1/4" plate. I use a 3-1/4" Dia Bi-Metal holesaw and cut out a bunch of discs. Drill out centre hole to 1/2" dia, mount discs on a mandrel and turn in lathe to 3" dia. (This washer is used so that the weight of the machine is not just on the nut, but spread more evenly across the whole top side of the hockey puck.) Use a 1/2" carriage bolt, about 3 1/2" long, but they can be longer or shorter depending on need. Place through Puck so that head is in the counterbored hole. Place large washer onto the other side, then a regular washer, a lock washer and a nut and tighten snugly. Add another nut, and a washer, place through hole in stand then add another washer and nut. Use these last two nuts to raise and lower the stand on the foot and to lock it in place. The rubber hockey puck will not rotate on the floor very well so do not plan on turning the whole foot to raise and lower the stand unless you are prepared to lift it off the floor. Never had any need to wet the pucks. I have used lighter carriage bolts, and the fender washer can be lighter material, depending on the weight being supported. Hockey pucks seem to always be in stock at our local Walmart and sell for under a buck each. The rubber in a hockey puck is about 90 Durometer on the Shore A Scale. The patent specs between 80 and 97. Rubber compound for hockey pucks - Douglas, Nolan E. www.freepatentsonline.com/5330184.html 19 Jul 1994 ... Hockey pucks and other articles are manufactured from the rubber ... wherein said compound has a Shore A hardness of from about 80 to 97. Footmaster Casters use a similar hardness of rubber for their levelling feet and if I need to I place a hockey puck under the Footmaster to increase the lift as part of my shop floor is sloped quite a bit. Walter ------- Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 13:06:15 -0800 From: Hugh Brown Subject: [OldTools] Cabinet Fail [Warning: long and rambling] In my shop hovel, anything and everything left unprotected will rust. Here in the SF Bay area, we rarely get freezing temperatures in the winter and our summer highs are never very high. But we do get moisture, and when we get a lot of rain, the floor of my hovel gets its own puddle. In an ideal world, I'd find a drier place to put the shop or take steps to divert the water from running in. Since neither of those are viable options in my current reality, I've opted to put my tools in cabinets. I made a cabinet last year for my planes, and another for my chisels, both of which have worked well. This year, I made a cabinet for my saws. It's a plywood box with a hardboard back. I chose the materials because I had most of them and I'm on a very limited budget. I had never used hardboard for a cabinet back before, but I know commercial cabinets are built that way and hey, it was cheap. I hung the cabinet moths ago, but it had no door on the front. In December, two things happened. I finally made a door for the saw cabinet and we had a very heavy rain. I had water on the floor of the garage for the first time since the drought started. Well, we need the rain, so I can't complain too much. But last week when I peeked inside my saw cabinet I discovered to my horror its full of mold. The back is covered with black thumbprint-like smudges. When I pulled it off the wall yesterday, it was even worse on the side facing the wall. Neither the hardboard nor the plywood sides were finished, but the smut appears only on the hardboard. What to do? I wiped it down with alcohol, which seems to do the job. Since it didn't like alcohol, I gave the whole cabinet a coat of shellac. My thought was that whatever the alcohol in the shellac didn't kill, the shellac would seal in. I also thought I might give it a coat or two of spar varnish as I have a can of that sitting on my shelf. The question to the galleeterati is this: Once the thing has had mold, will the mold inevitably come back? Is hardboard particularly vulnerable to mold? What is the best way to deal with this? Thanks, Hugh ------- Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 13:37:07 -0800 From: Dragon List Subject: Re: [OldTools] Cabinet Fail Hang it with French cleats, but put a spacer between the cleats and the wall. Half an inch should do the trick, it should allow enough circulation to keep it less damp, not damp, and much less or not at all moldy. Be sure to wipe all those saws down, too, or the mold can come back from them or form on them. Lastly, put a bag of desiccant in the till, drying it out per instructions at the necessary frequency. Bill Felton, CA Just say I've faced some of the same issues in wet year Felton. ------- Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 14:43:16 -0700 (MST) From: dks Subject: Re: [OldTools] Cabinet Fail You got mould because you got moisture. The alcohol killed the mould on the surface, but has the mould got into the hardboard itself? If it did, that's because there's moisture inside. Shellac might seal in the mould, but also the moisture, and slow its drying, except perhaps for the edges of the hardboard, which are likely sawn surfaces and not so easy to seal. Even if you can seal the edges, if there's moisture and mould inside, it's likely not going away. A good fungicide might kill the mould, but will probably not penetrate the shellac. Mould's the devil. Them's my thoughts on this. Don ------- Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 16:41:54 -0500 From: Ed Minch Subject: Re: [OldTools] Cabinet Fail I am sort of in this business and we know that there are types of hardboard that use glue that is caviar to mold. Here is Joe Lstriburek (Stee-bruk) who runs BS corp. This guy is one of the best experts around, plus he is very entertaining: http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-027-mater ial-view-of-mold Ed Minch ------- Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 14:15:10 -0800 From: Hugh Brown Subject: Re: [OldTools] Cabinet Fail This article was a good read, and based on this I'm pulling the hardboard off and throwing it away. Whatever I replace it with (and it won't be hardboard), I'll put some kind of finish on before I hang the cabinet. Bill in Felton offered the advice to hang it with space behind for air to circulate. It's good advice, but since the cabinet was already hung that way I don't think it will cure my problem. It's good to hear from anyone with experience in this. Don said, "Mould's the devil. Them's my thoughts on this." To that I can only add, Amen, brother. Thanks! Hugh ------- Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 14:13:54 -0900 From: Phil Schempf Subject: Re: [OldTools] Cabinet Fail Hugh- Another option is to add some heat to your cabinet. I don't have a mold problem, but living in a rain forest on the beach it and rust are distinct possibilities. I have a Goldenrod for my cabinet to minimize any such issues. More info here: http://tinyurl.com/npkuaqx You could accomplish the same with a light bulb, but they are bulkier, use more electrons, and who wants their cabinet to glow 24/7. Phil ------- Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 16:05:40 -0800 From: Michael Blair Subject: Re: [OldTools] Cabinet Fail I think you had two, maybe three problems. The first was that the hardboard was exceptionally absorbent. Tempered masonite would have been much better Sign board would be even better since all the glues used are 100% waterproof (it's meant to survive outdoors in all weather. The second is that once the moisture went all through the hardboard, it stayed in the cabinet now that it had a door. Great environment for mold. You needed ventilation. Also (possible #3) this is an environment for condensation. Don't paint or otherwise finish any part until the cabinet has thoroughly dried. Putting a finish on it now will seal the moisture in, and you don't want that. Finish? The environment is pretty bad to do this much. Shellac won't, I don't believe, be up to the task. I think you might want a polyurethane finish to seal the wood once it's dry. And get a coat of wax (microcrystaline would be best) on your saws, both blade and tote. Mike in Sacto ------- Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 19:18:38 -0500 From: Ed Minch Subject: Re: [OldTools] Cabinet Fail Hugh: Maybe I didn't explain enough. There are types of hardboard that sprout mold at the slightest provocation. When we moved a few years ago, we bought a number of steel shelving units to store things in the basement. They had hardboard shelving and the bottom shelf on all 6 of the sets of shelves has a little bit of mold growing on it -- the conditions for mold were marginal, but because it was the wrong kind of hardboard, the stuff down low where it is the coolest (therefore slightly higher Relative Humidity) grew the mold where the upper shelves did not. I think that if the hardboard was replaced with plywood, you would not have to finish anything, or heat anything. What you experienced was an extremed situation. Perhaps a de-humidifier for the damper seasons. Ed Minch ------- Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 16:45:12 -0800 From: Hugh Brown Subject: Re: [OldTools] Cabinet Fail I'd have to say, this is definitely the wrong kind of hardboard. I've never had mold in the shop before, and this went from none to bad in a short time. Since the dampest of seasons includes a stream running through it, perhaps the dehumidifier I need is a pump! Thanks again, Hugh ------- Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 22:59:51 -0500 From: "Cliff Rohrabacher, Esq" Subject: Re: [OldTools] Cabinet Fail On 1/11/2015 4:06 PM, Hugh Brown wrote: > everything left unprotected will rust. I have a wet location too and I have found that absent a good thick coat of paint, the only thing for it is to spend money on dehumidifiers. I had two April Air whole house units -- one in my cellar and another adjacent shop which work well until they failed from unbelievably bad manufacturing. I replaced them with relatively cheap ones by LG from the BORG and they work about as well as the very expensive ones did. I use little giant pumps to remove the water through small tubing to the waste lines. It's a solution that works and is as reliable as it gets. ------- Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 19:16:49 +0000 From: "Yarrow, Gary" Subject: RE: [OldTools] Cabinet Fail I deal with mold issues every day at work (part of indoor air quality). 1. Get rid of the hardboard, it will never be mold free again. 2. Alcohol will only get the top layer, 10% bleach (don't use pure bleach, it doesn't work as well), and hit anyplace the mold is or was. Since the water content of the 10% bleach is high, it should go through the shellac, but you need to get rid of shellac and start over. 3. Do the bleach thing a couple of times, then set it in the sun and keep turning it. 4. there is mold resistant hardboard, but I'd go with a ply back. 5. As someone suggested, when reinstalling it, "air movement" is key. 6. However, this all being said, you will always have problems with this....I'd start anew. 7. Fans, etc., lots of air movement. Just as an example, we have a policy that if we can't get rid of mold in 48 hours, it goes to the landfill (carpeting, wood, etc.)..... If you have allergies, get rid of it because the mold will fight you. Gary Yarrow TwoHerbs Workshop Brookings, SD ------- Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 14:06:10 -0500 From: Ron Harper Subject: [OldTools] Shop in the garage Our home is sold and we are moving. It is looking very much like my shop space will be half of a two car garage. The other half will house SWMBO's jeep. Who else is doing this? Particularly north of the Ohio River. Do you have issues with moisture/rust because of the vehicle? Any info appreciated Ron. A Kokomo Galoot ------- Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 14:36:21 -0500 From: Gary Katsanis Subject: Fwd: [OldTools] Shop in the garage If you have a vehicle that is bringing in salt and slush on the tires, you may have a problem. Even with relatively minor heating/cooling and humidity issues, it can be awkward. I work in a basement and have a natural gas wall heater. If I let my shop get cold, then go warm it up (natural gas puts water vapor in the air as it burns), I get a condensation issue. I bag my better hand tools (cut off legs from worn out jeans do a great job) to keep the rust down. It's better if I just work with a thick shirt, hat, and fingerless gloves without turning on the heat. Cold wood works very well. Can you curtain it off in the winter? I think doing that, along with cleaning the parking bay regularly, would help a lot, I've never gotten a dehumidifier to work well in an unheated space. Just rambling ... good luck with your new shop! Gary Katsanis Albion NY, USA ------- Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 19:58:22 +0000 From: "Yarrow, Gary" Subject: RE: [OldTools] Shop in the garage Hey...It's a Jeep, it can stay outside where it belongs! Although using gas is cheaper to run, you will have less problems with electric heat, keep it above freezing (it's been hard around here this winter) like ~35F or so. Don't let the Jeep run in the garage, lot of moisture from that tailpipe. But, in SD, it's a constant that we have to deal with, the worst part of it, is in the spring when it starts to warm up and the floor and any heavy metal tools are still cold. For special things, use a bit of oil on the blades and metal surfaces. There are lots of choices there, but almost any will work that are not drying oils. Gary ------- Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 15:36:23 -0500 From: "Cliff Rohrabacher, Esq" Subject: Re: [OldTools] Shop in the garage What????? You didn't get the memo? Garages are not for cars. Those big doors are just for ventilation in the summer and spring and fall. Garages are for tools. ------- Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 20:09:19 -0500 From: John Leyden Subject: [OldTools] Re: Shop in the garage Ron wonders: "Who else is doing this? Particularly north of the Ohio River." North by East, technically. In very close proximity to a large river. Think fog. First rule of survival: Erect a partition wall between thy shop and thy spouse's vehicle. It helps to keep the dust in the shop and not on the car. Second rule of survival: Get thee a honking big pedestal fan and position it at the far inward end of thy shop. Let it blow the dust out the open garage door. Third rule of survival: Always, always, always pick up the nails and screws that you drop on the floor. They are magically attracted to thy spouse's tires. Fourth rule of survival: Get a shop compressor and tire patch kit anyway. Fifth rule of survival: Put as many of your tools on wheels as you can. The only stationary tools in my half garage are the RAS, lathe and workbench. Sixth rule of survival: Learn to work without much heat in winter. It helps to prevent rust somewhat. I have an infrared unit that points at the workbench. As long as you're in line with it it's good enough. Make sure you blow accumulated dust off of it frequently, particularly when you turn it on for the first time in a season. Seventh rule of survival: Paint the ceiling and all the walls brilliant white. It's much easier to see things. Eighth rule of survival: Gradually encroach on the room where the oil/gas furnace is for doing simple benchwork when it's really cold. Make shavings, not dust in said room. Ninth rule of survival: Make sure you have internal shutoff valves on the water lines leading to the exterior garden hose spigots. I fortunately was at home when one of them burst in the uninsulated wall between the garage doors, on my side of the partition. Tenth and final rule of survival: Learn to keep only enough wood on hand for the current project. It just gets in the way otherwise. Just one man's experience. JL ------- Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 02:34:31 +0000 From: David Nighswander Subject: Re: [OldTools] Shop in the garage I have a shop in the attached 2 car garage where I do big, dusty, dirty, or noisy projects. It's the side where I park my truck so the truck is in the driveway during the time anything, other than working on the truck, is being done in the garage. The garage is insulated and there is enough heat leaking from the house to keep it above freezing most of the time. In the summer I can open the door to the house and steal a bit of air conditioning. This weeks -14 degrees was an exception. The garage had ice on the floor where the salt water dripped off the car and truck. I'm not having much problems with rust in the garage. My former shop was a repurposed hog barn with partial insulation that had water on the floor every spring. The hog whiz drew humidity right out of the air. I learned to paste wax everything and that stopped my tools from dissolving into rusty globs. I also built a 40 foot long bench that wrapped around two sides of the shop. Under the bench I built in drawers to keep everything in. If they were in a drawer or cabinet they stayed rust free. Never set anything on the concrete floor. Axes, shovels, picks, all of them will wick water up the handle and the handles come loose. Store items 1 foot or more off the floor and they have a fighting chance in a unheated building. Best bet is high grade car wax to keep condensation from rusting the big machines that have to sit out. Old sheets covering the big stuff helps to keep them dust free. The dust attracts moisture and encourages rust. Cover and blow out or brush off your tools to keep them safer. That's what has worked for me. ------- Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 08:27:42 -0400 From: Ed Minch Subject: [OldTools] Small shops GGG My brother is moving out of a 4000 ft2 converted barn into a 650 ft2 riverside cottage and he needs a new shop. He is thinking of an outbuilding in the 120 ft2 range. Does anyone have a few shots of their small shop to provide ideas? He and I have talked about a small 'porch' roof to pull tools outdoors under, large doors for moving things around, a window at either end at the right height to pass long pieces through, etc. Any cool ideas out there? Ed Minch ------- Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 09:53:18 -0400 From: "Dennis Heyza" Subject: Re: [OldTools] Small shops Don't know about cool, but here's some shots of my minimalist shop (110sf prox), set up after we moved to a condo ten months ago. It's in an unfinished corner of the basement (I can do assembly and finishing in the finished part if necessary). It's pretty basic, with a bench, shelves for woodies, limited lumber storage, saw till, a lathe, and old cabinet that stores most tools. I'll admit to having done very little in it so far due to job travel demands but what I've done has not posed a problem. http://home.comcast.net/~michigaloot/shop1.jpg http://home.comcast.net/~michigaloot/shop2.jpg http://home.comcast.net/~michigaloot/shop3.jpg http://home.comcast.net/~michigaloot/shop4.jpg http://home.comcast.net/~michigaloot/shop5.jpg Dennis Heyza Utica MI ------- Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 07:09:00 -0700 From: Michael Blair Subject: Re: [OldTools] Small shops > Any cool ideas out there? Yes. Anybody here remember Walt's Workshop on TV? Here's his larger shop layout: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/547539267171446549/ His earlier layout can be found (toward the bottom of the article) at: http://www.woodworkinghistory.com/manual_author6.htm There are so many home handyman books from the first part of the 20th Century which have plans/layouts for even smaller shops that I don't quite know where to start. I have several of these. The title that comes to mind is It's Fun to Make It Yourself. Many have workshop plans for small basements, build it yourself lean-to additions (one of these if memory serves, is 12 feet by 7 feet. Another one has a fold up bench and built in tool cabinet small enough to put on the back porch. The early days of the woodwork hobbyist saw many publications and either one of these will have exactly what he needs, or cruising through several will provide all the ideas necessary to meet his needs. Mike in Sacto ------- Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 10:17:03 -0400 From: Ron Harper Subject: Re: [OldTools] Small shops I just moved into an area of 144 sq ft. Still not quite settled in. I believe it is very doable for a hand tool shop. I only have a Bench top planer in the corded category. It has proven to be a challenge for a 70 year old guy who has been used to at least twice the space. The two major issues for me are wood storage. And keeping things put away as I use them. You do not have the luxury to leave things laying around. I have two benches. If I were starting from scratch I would not do that, but they are both so very useful to me that I do not want to get rid of them one is for planing and assembly. The other is a higher bench that I do most of my work on. It is 4 ft long and 20 in deep by 41 in high. After I get some other things done,I will post some pics. Ron. A Kokomo Galoot ------- Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 16:04:41 -0500 From: Ed Minch Subject: Re: [OldTools] Shop Temperature On 2016-01-26 1:05 PM, David Nighswander wrote: >> Basement is a great shop for hand tools. On Jan 26, 2016, at 3:27 PM, Don Schwartz wrote: >EXCEPT if you like windows and natural light! > Don Don - you are right, that is the only weak part of the basement solution. Ed Minch ------- Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 21:22:47 +0000 From: "John M Johnston (jmjhnstn)" Subject: Re: [OldTools] Shop Temperature False window, lovely outdoor vista poster-sized photo, day-light lighting. Bob's your uncle. John M. Johnston ------- Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 21:59:41 -0500 From: Claudio DeLorenzi Subject: Re: [OldTools] Shop Temperature > So to answer your questions: > 1. I don't actively heat my basement. The furnace keeps it above > freezing, which is good enough (good enough = water pipes above my > head not freezing and bursting). > 2. As long as I'm moving, there is no lower temperature limit for > woodworking. When it's really cold I wear one of those jackets without > sleeves. > Thanks, > Chris In my previous home, the shop was in the basement. This created lots issues, with lumber and dirt getting dragged downstairs and sawdust being dragged upstairs and the inevitable dust getting sucked into the furnace and blown evenly throughout the entire house, despite my attempts to stop it. Plus no mortising after 8 pm and all sorts of other rules! Smelly finishes- (Dad it stinks in my room!) Not a good situation, you see. If you have a choice, consider taking it. So, when we moved, I took the attached double car garage for myself, and built a new garage for vehicles, keeping the original garage as my shop. Bringing a gas line over from the furnace room was easy during our home renovations, so I have a heated, insulated shop and there is no connection with air supply to the house, so no dust issues etc. I can make all the noise I want and no one can hear anything in the house, so it is perfect for me. So yes, I heat my shop. I keep it at about 65? or so in the winter time- any colder than that and the florescent lighting I installed (recycled) starts buzzing and flickering badly and that drives me crazy (the ballasts are probably 40 years old or more- maybe newer ones would be better, but these aren't broken, so they are staying put- Besides, it seems like you can't buy anything good anymore - so if I change my lights I'd probably be changing them every couple of years or something). Lighting is really important, so I put in lots of florescent lights (recycled fixtures from an office building nearby that was throwing them all out), but remember I did all this before the new kinds of energy efficient lighting options came to market. Just a thought - If you have a choice about windows, I'd probably go for big North facing windows for even lighting throughout the day (I have East facing windows, so the mornings are a bit too bright, afternoons a bit too dark for just daylight). Oh, and one more thing I did for my knees and hips is that i put in a wooden floor. Best thing I ever did in there. Man was not meant to stand on concrete all day ( an abomination!, haha). I used those insulated subfloor panels that can lie directly on the slab, and then put in some rough sawn red maple I bought at a lumber mill directly on to this. Worked great. Cheers from Waterloo Claudio ------- ------------------------------------------------------------------ This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------